New witness saw Trayvon attack Zimmerman [Archive] - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Drew

03-24-2012, 03:21 PM

Apparently the Police had this guy's statement all along but didn't/couldn't release it. It sure changes the dynamic of the whole situation from "gun nut volunteer blasts skittles youth" to something more in line with a situation where there could be actual doubt about charging him or not.

Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Updated: Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 6:19 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 5:47 PM EDT

ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.

Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.

Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.

Some Rogue

03-24-2012, 03:24 PM

Why do you hate black people?

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 03:26 PM

I wonder why the police couldn't release this information sooner?

diethx

03-24-2012, 03:28 PM

So this guy was beaten up by a teenager and then decided to follow him with a gun? Or he got beaten up after he decided to follow him with a gun? Either way... didn't he follow the kid with a gun?

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 03:30 PM

So this guy was beaten up by a teenager and then decided to follow him with a gun? Or he got beaten up after he decided to follow him with a gun? Either way... didn't he follow the kid with a gun?

From what I understand of Zimmerman's story he saw the kid and thought he 'looked suspicious' so was following him. He got out of his car to see what street he was on when the kid supposedly attacked Zimmerman as he was going back to his car.

Ardwen

03-24-2012, 03:47 PM

Generally police dont release evidence during investigations

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 04:27 PM

I wonder why the police couldn't release this information sooner?

Because fabricating that kind of stuff takes time. I mean, look at the lousy job they did framing OJ. If they had taken their time planting the evidence correctly in that case he would not have walked.

Aylien

03-24-2012, 04:36 PM

Warriorbird

03-24-2012, 05:03 PM

I'm not sure what to believe, but I certainly don't believe that this isn't worth investigating from multiple angles. Self defense to fists also isn't shooting somebody.

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 05:42 PM

Self defense to fists also isn't shooting somebody.

From a legal stand point it is. In a self-defense claim you do not have to meet force with "like" force.

edit: I'm not saying it is right, but fair and legal are seldom the same.

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 05:43 PM

:-X

Androidpk

03-24-2012, 05:49 PM

Interesting that is is the first thread on this issue on the PC and it's in support of Zimmerman.

Innocent until proven guilty. That is what our justice system is supposed to stand for. It irks me to no end that people are marching about trumpeting the race card. Al Sharpton and his army of drones are not doing anything to help this case.

Grrr

Warriorbird

03-24-2012, 05:55 PM

Innocent until proven guilty. That is what our justice system is supposed to stand for. It irks me to no end that people are marching about trumpeting the race card. Al Sharpton and his army of drones are not doing anything to help this case.

Grrr

The "There's no racism ever!" responses are just as dumb. Either way, this is a complex case. I don't think Zimmerman should've been let off till it was thoroughly investigated.

Jarvan

03-24-2012, 06:02 PM

Okay, I don't think this proves "self defense".

This is the timeline as I understand it:

Treyvon goes to 7-11 for Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea
Zimmerman sees Treyvon, decides he's "suspicious" and calls the police.
Zimmerman FOLLOWS Treyvon.
Police operator says "We don't need you to do that".
Zimmerman continues to follow Treyvon.
According to girlfriend Treyvon is on the phone with her and says "This guy is following me. I'm not going to run I'm going to walk away fast".
Girlfriend hears Treyvon ask "Why are you following me?"
Girlfriend hears other person ask "What are you doing here?"
Altercation occurs. We don't know WHO threw the first punch. Witness sees Treyvon on top of Zimmerman and hears Zimmerman yelling.
Gunshot, Treyvon is dead.

This makes it NOT homicide? cause from where I sit, Zimmerman still looks like the aggressor/instigator. He aggressively followed Treyvon, despite being told not to by the operator. Treyvon knows he's being followed by some person for some unknown reason (possibly to jump and rob him?), he's aggressively confronted BY Zimmerman... would it make him wrong to throw a few punches in self-defense? Zimmerman had a bloody nose and the back of his head was bloody... but it doesn't look like he got the hell beat out of him. His eyes aren't blackened, his ribs aren't bruised. It was a relatively short amount of time that Treyvon was on top of him.

Nope, still not buying self-defense on this one.

Tell you the truth, I don't know what happened, nor do I directly care. if Zimmerman committed a crime, he should pay.

BUT.. that being said, I just got to ask..

So, an Eyewitness's testimony, and recorded 911 calls hearing Zimmerman call for help as he is supposedly being attacked and in a defensive position means nothing compared to what some teenage girl says she heard her boyfriend say on the phone?

Should Zimmerman have shot the kid, EVEN if he was getting struck in the face? Honestly, who knows. If I was on the ground, and someone was beating me, and I had a gun, i'd prob pull it as well.

Would I have followed a "suspicious" person? If I was in a neighborhood watch, and if the neighborhood had seen recent problems, maybe. Otherwise, no.

Warriorbird

03-24-2012, 06:04 PM

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 06:05 PM

Androidpk

03-24-2012, 06:05 PM

The "There's no racism ever!" responses are just as dumb. Either way, this is a complex case. I don't think Zimmerman should've been let off till it was thoroughly investigated.

Yes, they are. There most certainly IS racism. It's a fact. There are always going to people that are racist against other people. It's perfectly OK to mock social parasites like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson though.

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 06:06 PM

Witness says she heard a little boy crying and then a gunshot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk

Warriorbird

03-24-2012, 06:06 PM

Yes, they are. There most certainly IS racism. It's a fact. There are always going to people that are racist against other people. It's perfectly OK to mock social parasites like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson though.

Definitely. I regularly draw Illinois family rage by suggesting Jesse Jr. is a sequel.

Androidpk

03-24-2012, 06:10 PM

Witness says she heard a little boy crying and then a gunshot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk

Didn't you cry the first time you mugged somebody?

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 06:10 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOpGAOXL5Uk

Zimmerman: They always get away. He's looking at me. He's running away.

Dispatcher: Are you following him?

Zimmerman: Yes.

Dispatcher: We do not need for you to follow him sir.

They need to find a new program that does their closed captions. A poor deaf person reading that must be confused as fuck.

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 06:13 PM

Innocent until proven guilty. That is what our justice system is supposed to stand for. It irks me to no end that people are marching about trumpeting the race card. Al Sharpton and his army of drones are not doing anything to help this case.

Grrr

If you own guns and you ever want to defend yourself in your home again you should get all the facts. I'm religiously second amendment and I felt that it was my duty to know exactly what happened. Zimmerman does not represent me or anyone else who responsibly owns a gun because responsible gun owners do not go out looking for people to shoot. Zimmerman does not represent the NRA or any stand your ground laws. He pursued and murdered someone and I dont want anyone using his idiocy to put crosshairs on my guns. The end.

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 06:14 PM

Witness says she heard a little boy crying and then a gunshot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk

Having watched that video three times now, all I can say is that blonde chick is hawt.

TheEschaton

03-24-2012, 06:15 PM

Tell you the truth, I don't know what happened, nor do I directly care. if Zimmerman committed a crime, he should pay.

BUT.. that being said, I just got to ask..

So, an Eyewitness's testimony, and recorded 911 calls hearing Zimmerman call for help as he is supposedly being attacked and in a defensive position means nothing compared to what some teenage girl says she heard her boyfriend say on the phone?

Should Zimmerman have shot the kid, EVEN if he was getting struck in the face? Honestly, who knows. If I was on the ground, and someone was beating me, and I had a gun, i'd prob pull it as well.

Would I have followed a "suspicious" person? If I was in a neighborhood watch, and if the neighborhood had seen recent problems, maybe. Otherwise, no.

If he was a good neighbor, he'd have known the kid was his neighbor, and not suspicious. But I guess they all look the same, sometimes.

Also, calling for help does not indicate who the aggressor is, it just indicates the boy fought back, which seems reasonable. I'm not saying this is what happened, but you don't get to physically instigate a fight, start getting beat up, call for help and then shoot your "attacker" and then claim self-defense.

Also, I thought there WAS an appropriate response requirement for self-defense? Like, I can't shoot someone if he hits me. IE, deadly force must be a reaction to deadly force.

Androidpk

03-24-2012, 06:15 PM

If you own guns and you ever want to defend yourself in your home again you should get all the facts. I'm religiously second amendment and I felt that it was my duty to know exactly what happened. Zimmerman does not represent me or anyone else who responsibly owns a gun because responsible gun owners do not go out looking for people to shoot. Zimmerman does not represent the NRA or any stand your ground laws. He pursued and murdered someone and I dont want anyone using his idiocy to put crosshairs on my guns. The end.

What does that have to do with what I said? :)

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 06:19 PM

Also, I thought there WAS an appropriate response requirement for self-defense? Like, I can't shoot someone if he hits me. IE, deadly force must be a reaction to deadly force.

That's what I thought too. However (and I'm not going to get into THIS specific case, just a 'what if' scenario) what if someone is attacked with fists but believes the person is going to kill him? It's really not hard to kill someone with your hands. Does the guy getting attacked not have the right to shoot the person who is overpowering him and feels his life is in danger?

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 06:23 PM

Also, I thought there WAS an appropriate response requirement for self-defense? Like, I can't shoot someone if he hits me. IE, deadly force must be a reaction to deadly force.

Goes to state of mind. If he believed that the kid was going to kill him, he responded appropriately if he felt that the only way to protect himself was to kill the kid first.

TheEschaton

03-24-2012, 06:31 PM

Since when is it reasonable for a 240 pound man to believe a 140 pound kid is going to beat him to death?

Gelston

03-24-2012, 06:31 PM

So, did Zimmerman have any injuries? I mean, if he was in so much danger that he felt the need to draw and fire a handgun, I'd expect some injuries on his person.

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 06:32 PM

Since when is it reasonable for a 240 pound man to believe a 140 pound kid is going to beat him to death?

And that is where the "How good is your attorney?" part comes in.

Showal

03-24-2012, 06:38 PM

This case is ridiculous. Who needs to get out of their car to check on a street name in their own neighborhood? Who does a neighborhood watch with a gun? Who follows suspicious people and continues to after they call the police and are told to stop? I see suspicious people every so often in my neighborhood. I have never called the cops when hey are walking down the street. I did call twice. Once because two people were by my woodpile at 1am with flashlights looking around in my backyard. The cops gave me a reasonable answer and said not to worry. I did not grab a knife and go out there to take care of business. If they started to come into my house, I would have responded differently. Imagine if we all got confronted because we were lost walking down the street and were clearly in the wrong place? I don't have enough time in the day to confront everyone I think is doing something suspicious. On the surface, a lot of people seem suspicious but it doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong. People are fucking weird and they will appear to be behaving strange.

I think Zimmerman was just doing his best, in his mind, to make sure some nigger didn't get away with stealing some junior mints in his neighborhood. This guy has a history of taking his neighborhood watch responsibilities a little too seriously.

What we do know is that a teenager was fucking shot dead in an area that has a very long history of racial tensions. That might not be the motivation, but if i called a guy a faggot, who was gay, and punched him, it'd be hard to say I didn't do it because he is gay.

I might be wrong, but my understanding of the stand your ground laws is that there is no limit on "appropriate" response in self defense. The law doesnt have to tell you its wrong yo shoot someone who is unarmed though ... Being a fucking human tells you that.

Drew

03-24-2012, 06:39 PM

Also, I thought there WAS an appropriate response requirement for self-defense? Like, I can't shoot someone if he hits me. IE, deadly force must be a reaction to deadly force.

You can kill anyone with a punch by punching them in the lower back of the skull (this is why every combat sport, even MMA, bans these punches)( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_punch ). It doesn't even require a lot of force. This happened fairly recently where a kid who shot these bullies who jumped him outside the school bus was acquitted even though they were just beating him up. Should you have to wait until the hands are grasping your neck or you take a blow to the back of the head before you can use the gun?

I think that the evidence here is probably too circumstantial to convict this man fairly. He will get convicted now because of the social pressure. I don't know if he murdered the kid or protected himself but I don't think with the evidence I know that he should be convicted of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 06:39 PM

So, did Zimmerman have any injuries? I mean, if he was in so much danger that he felt the need to draw and fire a handgun, I'd expect some injuries on his person.

His lawyer claims Zimmerman has a broken nose and lacerations on his head.

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 06:39 PM

What does that have to do with what I said? :)

There are more perspectives working here than just black or white. Zimmerman is an idiot who will be used as an example and it will effect more than the civil rights discussion. If you own guns (which I thought you did) this should matter.

Drew

03-24-2012, 06:43 PM

There is no doubt that this tragedy is being used to gun for the removal of the stand your ground law and keep it from being passed anywhere else.

Showal

03-24-2012, 06:44 PM

You can kill anyone with a punch by punching them in the lower back of the skull (this is why every combat sport, even MMA, bans these punches)( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_punch ). It doesn't even require a lot of force. This happened fairly recently where a kid who shot these bullies who jumped him outside the school bus was acquitted even though they were just beating him up. Should you have to wait until the hands are grasping your neck or you take a blow to the back of the head before you can use the gun?

I think that the evidence here is probably too circumstantial to convict this man fairly. He will get convicted now because of the social pressure. I don't know if he murdered the kid or protected himself but I don't think with the evidence I know that he could be convicted of murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

This makes me curious how everyone here fights. I know latrin is quite the fighter and has a good technique.

Back

03-24-2012, 06:47 PM

Drew

03-24-2012, 06:48 PM

This makes me curious how everyone here fights. I know latrin is quite the fighter and has a good technique.

I don't know if you're being serious, but I used to be a pretty keen boxer. Brute did/does some wrestling and MMA training.

TheEschaton

03-24-2012, 06:51 PM

The eggshell skull defense is, afaik, an assumption in torts, not in criminal self-defense. Also, a (singular) kid shooting a (multiple) group of bullies who 1) out-numbered him, and 2) I assume instigated the fight, is much more in line with appropriate force.

However, when a 240 guy following a 140 pound kid who he has arbitrarily deemed suspicious, who he confronts/is confronted by, and then gets in a physical altercation with, he'd have to be about to get stabbed for shooting the kid to be a proportional response.

Also, this is why stand your ground laws are retarded, in almost every other jurisdiction int he country, he'd be arrested for murder right now merely for the fact that HE didn't run away, and he was outside his home.

Drew

03-24-2012, 06:54 PM

For every corner case like this one there are 10 where people weren't arrested for murder because they did the right thing, this is why stand your ground is a great law.

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 06:58 PM

However, when a 240 guy following a 140 pound kid who he has arbitrarily deemed suspicious, who he confronts/is confronted by, and then gets in a physical altercation with, he'd have to be about to get stabbed for shooting the kid to be a proportional response.

Really? The kid would have to be in mid swing with a knife before the guy is allowed to defend himself with a gun?

Also, this is why stand your ground laws are retarded, in almost every other jurisdiction int he country, he'd be arrested for murder right now merely for the fact that HE didn't run away, and he was outside his home.

The 'fleeing' laws are equally as stupid. I don't think anyone (other than the police for some reason) is saying the "Stand Your Ground" law applies to Zimmerman in this case.

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 07:03 PM

The eggshell skull defense is, afaik, an assumption in torts, not in criminal self-defense.

I'm pretty sure if a person really only meant to punch someone and they ended up killing the person with said punch they would be charged with manslaughter for the person's death and not just assault for the punch.

Skeeter

03-24-2012, 07:15 PM

1. I live in a huge neighborhood, been here for 9 years. Other than the streets that go directly to my house, I couldn't tell you the name of any of the others.

2. When did it start being a crime to follow someone. As far as the kid knew he could've just been lost, or going home or whatever. No reason to attack.

3. Should the kid have been shot? I don't know, I wasn't there, neither were any of you. Obviously its not as open and shut as the internet wants you to believe otherwise an arrest would be made.

The people who are all over this one, are the same people up in arms over the kony2012 video because some drunk schizophrenic on the interwebz told them they should be.

baaaaah baaaaah

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 07:18 PM

I think they're working from the recorded conversation rather than what the girl said... and his excess of 911 calls.

No, they are working from hearsay evidence from Trayvon's girlfriend. There is no recorded conversation.

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 07:20 PM

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 07:37 PM

This makes me curious how everyone here fights. I know latrin is quite the fighter and has a good technique.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/222/5/2/kyuhyun_laugh_gif_by_kimchattigirl.gif

Jonty

03-24-2012, 08:02 PM

No, they are working from hearsay evidence from Trayvon's girlfriend. There is no recorded conversation.

How is that hearsay? It's what she heard over the phone. How is that different from any other witness near the scene hearing someone say "help", or cry, or whatever?

Ardwen

03-24-2012, 08:09 PM

hearsay...heard connect the dots

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 08:28 PM

How is that hearsay? It's what she heard over the phone. How is that different from any other witness near the scene hearing someone say "help", or cry, or whatever?

Do you know what the definition of hearsay evidence is?

Jarvan

03-24-2012, 09:04 PM

There are more perspectives working here than just black or white. Zimmerman is an idiot who will be used as an example and it will effect more than the civil rights discussion. If you own guns (which I thought you did) this should matter.

Well, Zimmerman isn't technically white. So the whole "Black or White" part isn't even an issue.

Technically, it's a Latino that killed a black kid.

In my city, that would be called a gang war. Just saying.

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 09:37 PM

So what is the takeaway lesson from this thread? Well first it is to ask ourselves always before we go anywhere, "How suspicious do I look today?". If you are black the answer should be obvious. Very. Next most important lesson should be, "How can I avoid being shot by a non-suspicious person?". This answer should also be obvious. If someone is following you first announce that you just bought skittles but DO NOT RUN AWAY. Running away only provokes the non-suspicious people. Stand your ground and wave your skittles in the air. Then you should be safe.

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 09:41 PM

This makes me curious how everyone here fights. I know latrin is quite the fighter and has a good technique.

Twenty five years of Tae Kwon Do and Kung Fu. Odds are pretty good that I'm going to shoot you given the choice though. Failing that I'm most likely going to kick you in the balls. After a certain age (high school?) and outside of a tournament ring all that matters is who walks away, not what technique was used.

Drunken Durfin

03-24-2012, 09:43 PM

Well, Zimmerman isn't technically white. So the whole "Black or White" part isn't even an issue.

Technically, it's a Latino that killed a black kid.

In my city, that would be called a gang war. Just saying.

Honestly, after seeing his picture I was glad it was not a white guy. It is about time someone else took the heat.

Jonty

03-24-2012, 09:45 PM

hearsay...heard connect the dots

Do you know what the definition of hearsay evidence is?

Yes, and it would be hearsay evidence if we're solely taking her statement as evidence of whether or not Zimmerman was actually following Trayvon. The conversation itself and what she hears Treyvon and Zimmerman say is an eyewitness account (without eyes).

"He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man," the girlfriend, who was not identified, told ABC. "I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Call logs from Martin's phone confirm he spoke with the 16-year-old girlfriend interviewed by ABC News (http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html) minutes before his death, the news station reported.

Although Martin initially told his girlfriend he wasn't going to run, he eventually did, she said, but the stranger managed to corner him.

"Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone."

After that, the line went dead, she said. According to ABC News, other than screams on 911 calls as Martin and Zimmerman scuffled, those were the last words Martin said.

Read more: Trayvon Martin's final phone call: 'He said this man was watching him' (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/20/10774247-trayvon-martins-final-phone-call-he-said-this-man-was-watching-him)

Trayvon Martin Exclusive: Friend on Phone with Teen Before Death Recalls Final Moments (http://gma.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-killing-friend-phone-teen-death-recounts-063243901--abc-news.html)

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 09:49 PM

Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the headset just fell.

I don't know about hearsay but this bit at least is pure speculation.

Kuyuk

03-24-2012, 10:30 PM

So, if Tayvon had a gun, and noticed the guy following him, and shot the other guy, could he claim self defense and walk?

Skeeter

03-24-2012, 10:32 PM

of course. As we all now know following someone is highly aggressive and illegal

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 10:38 PM

Yes, and it would be hearsay evidence if we're solely taking her statement as evidence of whether or not Zimmerman was actually following Trayvon. The conversation itself and what she hears Treyvon and Zimmerman say is an eyewitness account (without eyes).

Her phone conversation with Trayvon would be considered hearsay evidence, since no one else was privy to the conversation. The only evidence that is backed up with any facts is that there was a phone call made between Trayvon's phone and hers.

Back

03-24-2012, 10:52 PM

So, if Tayvon had a gun, and noticed the guy following him, and shot the other guy, could he claim self defense and walk?

Or, if Tayvon, skinny 17 year old boy, killed 23 year old Zimmerman with his bare hands, as Zimmerman feared he would, would not Tayvon be the one protected under the Hold your Ground law since Tayvon was innocent and a stranger was following him with a loaded weapon?

Tgo01

03-24-2012, 11:00 PM

Or, if Tayvon, skinny 17 year old boy, killed 23 year old Zimmerman with his bare hands, as Zimmerman feared he would, would not Tayvon be the one protected under the Hold your Ground law since Tayvon was innocent and a stranger was following him with a loaded weapon?

If Martin killed Zimmerman because Zimmerman attacked him and Martin was fearing for his life then I would imagine he would be protected under the law. Unfortunately we'll never know what really went down that day.

I have to ask people who have already decided Zimmerman is guilty, do you really think Zimmerman just went up and shot Martin? After he called 911, after he followed Martin while on the phone with a 911 operator Zimmerman suddenly decided he was done following the kid and shot him?

Likewise I don't 100% believe Zimmerman's story that he got out of his car to see what street he was on and suddenly Martin attacked him.

Whether Zimmerman confronted Martin or Martin confronted Zimmerman I don't know, but I'm sure someone confronted someone and it got out of hand from there.

Jonty

03-24-2012, 11:11 PM

Her phone conversation with Trayvon would be considered hearsay evidence, since no one else was privy to the conversation.

Just because no one else heard the conversation does not make it hearsay.

Back

03-24-2012, 11:15 PM

I have to ask people who have already decided Zimmerman is guilty, do you really think Zimmerman just went up and shot Martin? After he called 911, after he followed Martin while on the phone with a 911 operator Zimmerman suddenly decided he was done following the kid and shot him?

I don't think Zimmerman just walked up and shot Tayvon. But from what I know I do think that Zimmerman's actions caused the situation's end result to occur.

It is beyond belief that Zimmerman has not been arrested. Tayvon will never know a full life and everyone who loved him has had him taken away forever.

4a6c1

03-24-2012, 11:15 PM

I have to ask people who have already decided Zimmerman is guilty, do you really think Zimmerman just went up and shot Martin? After he called 911, after he followed Martin while on the phone with a 911 operator Zimmerman suddenly decided he was done following the kid and shot him?
.

I think the main outcry with the civil rights groups is that Zimmerman should be arrested. A good 17 year old boy is dead. He wasnt high or drunk. He was not commiting a crime. He ran away from an armed gunman and the murderer is free. The dead cannot speak for themselves. That is what law inforcement is *supposed* to be for.

Jonty

03-24-2012, 11:17 PM

I don't think Zimmerman just walked up and shot Tayvon. But from what I know I do think that Zimmerman's actions caused the situation's end result to occur.

It is beyond belief that Zimmerman has not been arrested. Tayvon will never know a full life and everyone who loved him has had him taken away forever.

:yeahthat:

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 11:18 PM

I think the main outcry with the civil rights groups is that Zimmerman should be arrested. A good 17 year old boy is dead. He wasnt high or drunk. He was not commiting a crime. He ran away from an armed gunman and the murderer is free. The dead cannot speak for themselves. That is what law inforcement is *supposed* to be for.

What evidence have you heard that suggests that Trayvon "ran away from an armed gunman".. because everything about this case suggests the exact opposite.

Aylien

03-24-2012, 11:36 PM

What evidence have you heard that suggests that Trayvon "ran away from an armed gunman".. because everything about this case suggests the exact opposite.

How about the part in the 911 call where Zimmerman says "He's running".

Parkbandit

03-24-2012, 11:54 PM

How about the part in the 911 call where Zimmerman says "He's running".

People only run when they run away from armed gunmen now?

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 12:04 AM

Her phone conversation with Trayvon would be considered hearsay evidence, since no one else was privy to the conversation. The only evidence that is backed up with any facts is that there was a phone call made between Trayvon's phone and hers.

With the right effort they might have the entire call available.

TheEschaton

03-25-2012, 12:08 AM

People only run when they run away from armed gunmen now?

What?

The 911 phone call went something like this:

Zimmerman: "Damn, these assholes always get away.."
911 Operator: "He's leaving the area?"
Z: "Yeah, he's running away..."
<sound of heavy breathing from Zimmerman>
Operator: "Are you following him now?"
Z: "Yes."
Operator: "Okay sir, we don't need you to do that."

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 12:16 AM

What?

The 911 phone call went something like this:

Zimmerman: "Damn, these assholes always get away.."
911 Operator: "He's leaving the area?"
Z: "Yeah, he's running away..."
<sound of heavy breathing from Zimmerman>
Operator: "Are you following him now?"
Z: "Yes."
Operator: "Okay sir, we don't need you to do that."

Psh. Clearly they should let him free without investigating it further. Conservative media has told PB all.

Tgo01

03-25-2012, 12:19 AM

The 911 call doesn't prove that Martin kept running until Zimmerman shot him. Did Zimmerman make the entire situation worse by following Martin? There is no doubt about that. Let's assume for a moment Zimmerman is telling the truth that Martin attacked him, because Zimmerman chose to follow Martin does that mean Zimmerman had no right to defend himself if Martin attacked him?

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 12:22 AM

TheEschaton

03-25-2012, 12:24 AM

Skeeter

03-25-2012, 12:27 AM

the very definition of reasonable.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 01:17 AM

Does Martin have a right to attack a man who's chasing him for no reason? I mean, the reasonable black kid in a suburban Florida neighborhood might think, "Holy hell, it's Mississippi Burning up in here."

Actually, No you don' have the right to attack someone that is following you... except in Stand your Ground cases. But then it's considered self defense technically.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 07:40 AM

Psh. Clearly they should let him free without investigating it further. Conservative media has told PB all.

Where did I ever post that Zimmerman should be free and that this incident requires no further investigation?

I would ask that you stop being retarded, but we both know that's impossible.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 08:45 AM

I found this article insanely Insightful about media and our country's ideas of race.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/25/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

"The case has sparked a national debate over the Florida law and concerns about racial profiling. Martin was black and Zimmerman is white Hispanic."

Have you EVER heard the media, or anyone ever call President Obama, White Black? Since when do they bring this up? Every form I have ever seen state and federal level always asks if your Hispanic, or consider yourself primarily Hispanic. NOW, they have to put forth the fact in the media that he is White. Since of course, Hispanic on Black crime is not new, nor something they want to talk about.

On another note..

If I am walking down the street late at night, and I see ANYONE in a hoodie, my first thought is, Great a gangbanger. Why? Cause where I live, it's practically a uniform. The same people that are saying it would be wrong to be suspicious of a person in a hoodie walking the streets late at night, would prob be the same people praying to have a Muslim in typical Muslim garb taken off their flight for fear of them being a Terrorist.

Back

03-25-2012, 09:00 AM

thefarmer

03-25-2012, 09:04 AM

How about if you were a teenage boy on foot and an adult man was following you in a truck with no one else around?

See Chris Hansen often, Back?

Back

03-25-2012, 09:20 AM

See Chris Hansen often, Back?

Just saying look at it from Trayvon's point of view.

Only in America can a man shoot and kill a black kid and come out being the victim.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 09:37 AM

Where did I ever post that Zimmerman should be free and that this incident requires no further investigation?

I would ask that you stop being retarded, but we both know that's impossible.

It's healthy when you backpedal from solely posting talking points. Keep it up.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 09:38 AM

Just saying look at it from Trayvon's point of view.

Only in America can a man shoot and kill a black kid and come out being the victim.

Only in American, can a Black Gangbanger shoot and kill multiple people, and come out the victim.

But the fact is, Why the FUCK is race involved?

If this had been a White kid, would you even give a shit?

Let me fix that statement for you..

Only in America can a man shoot and kill a kid and come out being the victim.

NOW it's a valid statement... of course.. Now it's also an incomplete statement. Since there is no context as to why the kid was shot.

You would have to restate it as..

Only in America can a man Stalk, Harass, Confront, shoot and kill a kid and come out being the victim.

Now.. we know some, of the last statement is true. But we can't be certain as to which. Granted, police forensics should be able to determine from what angle the shot was fired. If for instance, it was fired downward from more then a few inches away, it's very likely murder. As the man would be standing over the kid.

If on the other hand, it's fired from a few inches away, upward from the ground, then it very well could, Notice the word COULD, be self defense. People are now pointing out the man's weight, and the kid's as that 's the biggest factor in if this guy should be fearful of his life in a fight. Just cause you are bigger, doesn't mean you can fight for a damn.

I don't know if this guy is guilty or not, if it's a hate crime or not ( but it DOES seem like he HATES suspicious people in his neighborhood, string the man up! ). But i'd really like someone to try and say that the Police didn't even look into it at the time, to see if they SHOULD arrest him.

Cause, you know.. people shoot and kill kid's all the time, so it's no big deal.

Sean of the Thread

03-25-2012, 09:55 AM

Okay, I don't think this proves "self defense".

This is the timeline as I understand it:

Treyvon goes to 7-11 for Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea
Zimmerman sees Treyvon, decides he's "suspicious" and calls the police.
Zimmerman FOLLOWS Treyvon.
Police operator says "We don't need you to do that".
Zimmerman continues to follow Treyvon.
According to girlfriend Treyvon is on the phone with her and says "This guy is following me. I'm not going to run I'm going to walk away fast".
Girlfriend hears Treyvon ask "Why are you following me?"
Girlfriend hears other person ask "What are you doing here?"
Altercation occurs. We don't know WHO threw the first punch. Witness sees Treyvon on top of Zimmerman and hears Zimmerman yelling.
Gunshot, Treyvon is dead.

This makes it NOT homicide? cause from where I sit, Zimmerman still looks like the aggressor/instigator. He aggressively followed Treyvon, despite being told not to by the operator. Treyvon knows he's being followed by some person for some unknown reason (possibly to jump and rob him?), he's aggressively confronted BY Zimmerman... would it make him wrong to throw a few punches in self-defense? Zimmerman had a bloody nose and the back of his head was bloody... but it doesn't look like he got the hell beat out of him. His eyes aren't blackened, his ribs aren't bruised. It was a relatively short amount of time that Treyvon was on top of him.

Nope, still not buying self-defense on this one.

In Florida you can shoot someone for spitting at you and be in the right. Seriously.

I love Florida.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 10:13 AM

It's healthy when you backpedal from solely posting talking points. Keep it up.

It's healthy when you post nonsense without any intelligent thought put into it. Keep it up.. it really is the best you have.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 10:16 AM

In Florida you can shoot someone for spitting at you and be in the right. Seriously.

I love Florida.

You can't shoot someone for spitting on you and be in the right in Florida or any other state.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 10:18 AM

It's healthy when you post nonsense without any intelligent thought put into it. Keep it up.. it really is the best you have.

I dunno. How many times have you tried to use the developmentally disabled as an insult? The non thoughtful response would involve the notion that it's pretty predictable that you say the death of a black teen wasn't racist or that of course you've never heard of Hispanic on black racism before.

You clearly came in here to bag on people who thought that maybe the death of this 17 year old might be some sort of racist problem. You did that because you love bashing Democrats and anybody who believes in civil rights, football team style. In the process you echoed all of the "OMG, nothing to see here!" crowd. They're just as off base.

The reality is probably somewhere in between the two poles. I think the suggestion that you stepping back a little is a good thing is actually rather philosophical, but you keep swinging of course.

Soon we'll get "OMG, you retarded!" again like you were a teen. Hopefully you stick with a bit more tact and maybe act like a parent of some.

WRoss

03-25-2012, 11:57 AM

Because fabricating that kind of stuff takes time. I mean, look at the lousy job they did framing OJ. If they had taken their time planting the evidence correctly in that case he would not have walked.

If the Wooky.....

Jonty

03-25-2012, 12:27 PM

Every form I have ever seen state and federal level always asks if your Hispanic, or consider yourself primarily Hispanic. NOW, they have to put forth the fact in the media that he is White. Since of course, Hispanic on Black crime is not new, nor something they want to talk about.

Well, on recent forms that I've seen, like the Census if I recall correctly, have had had two different parts. One was race, and the other was ethnicity. Or something like that.... And it had caucasian and hispanic on different parts. So, caucasian could be your race, and hispanic could be your ethnicity.

Aylien

03-25-2012, 12:36 PM

Tisket

03-25-2012, 12:50 PM

There are recordings of what happened and witnesses who are talking to the press.

So far I've heard 3 recordings. One submitted to npr of the phonecall with his girlfriend who he was on the phone with when he says to her, "hey, I think there is a man following me....what is he doing." Followed by a thump sound and a disconnect.

There is an actual recording of the conversation between the girlfriend and Trayvon? Or is that just her recollection of the conversation?

Not that I am challenging her recall or anything but grief can do strange things to memory. I'm sure there was a call between them at the time but how do we know for sure what was said.

(haven't really been following the story, a link would be appreciated to the conversation, if it did indeed get recorded)

second edit: didn't read beyond the first or second page of the thread and this has been brought up. FUCK YOU ALL.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 01:48 PM

I dunno. How many times have you tried to use the developmentally disabled as an insult? The non thoughtful response would involve the notion that it's pretty predictable that you say the death of a black teen wasn't racist or that of course you've never heard of Hispanic on black racism before.

You clearly came in here to bag on people who thought that maybe the death of this 17 year old might be some sort of racist problem. You did that because you love bashing Democrats and anybody who believes in civil rights, football team style. In the process you echoed all of the "OMG, nothing to see here!" crowd. They're just as off base.

The reality is probably somewhere in between the two poles. I think the suggestion that you stepping back a little is a good thing is actually rather philosophical, but you keep swinging of course.

Soon we'll get "OMG, you retarded!" again like you were a teen. Hopefully you stick with a bit more tact and maybe act like a parent of some.

Seriously, at this point you are merely trying to be a "successful" troll.. and given that you've failed at pretty much everything else in your life, I guess I can't blame you for settling on this.

As for being a parent.. you wouldn't know anything about it.. or being in a happy marriage. 2 other things you've failed at. At least there is a bright side of those failures.. your genetic makeup will die with you and you won't have to punish another generation.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 02:17 PM

Seriously, at this point you are merely trying to be a "successful" troll.. and given that you've failed at pretty much everything else in your life, I guess I can't blame you for settling on this.

As for being a parent.. you wouldn't know anything about it.. or being in a happy marriage. 2 other things you've failed at. At least there is a bright side of those failures.. your genetic makeup will die with you and you won't have to punish another generation.

Way to illustrate exactly how I said this post would roll out.

Get back to me when you want to discuss something serious or still pretend that you had some intellectual or philosophical aim here.

For myself, I hope that this is all thoroughly investigated before people decide innocence or guilt either way, but it's already played out in the media.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 02:31 PM

Way to illustrate exactly how I said this post would roll out.

Get back to me when you want to discuss something serious or still pretend that you had some intellectual or philosophical aim here.

For myself, I hope that this is all thoroughly investigated before people decide innocence or guilt either way, but it's already played out in the media.

Lulz at your hypocrisy. Seriously though, if you want to take the intellectual high road, you should first go through and delete 17,000+ posts.. they make you look foolish at this point.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 02:37 PM

Lulz at your hypocrisy. Seriously though, if you want to take the intellectual high road, you should first go through and delete 17,000+ posts.. they make you look foolish at this point.

And once again you insult me. Because I dared suggest that a balanced approach might be appropriate. Then you're all ZOMG I was balanced in spite of your entry into the thread.

Classy.

Queue you continuing to respond obsessively now with insults. Boring.

Non teens are actually discussing this from a perspective of whether federal power is appropriate. If this was a mature discussion, we could make it about federalism versus anti federalism. It isn't.

I haven't seen anything that suggests a hate crime charge is right, but I think the investigation has been anemic. Personally I'm torn.

Menos

03-25-2012, 02:43 PM

You can't shoot someone for spitting on you and be in the right in Florida or any other state.

Legal note, I am just a layperson who's official training was before the castle doctrine that keeps up with such things. My opinion holds no force of law.

This is a little bit of a grey area, to tell the honest truth. Spitting or any bodily fluid is rightly an assault in Florida, and assault is one of the possible crimes you may act to stop but only if you can reasonably believe you will suffer death or serious (case law makes that pretty much permanent disfigurement) injury. There may be some circumstance where that is reasonable but it seems quite a stretch.

On the other hand, we are able to act in the prevention of a "violent felony" on another individual, a lower bar than the need for self defense. So you might have a stronger argument stopping someone else from being spit on.

As to the specific case here, I seem to remember reading Trayvon was a 6'2" football player that was about to turn 18 and was visiting his dad because he was serving a 10 day out of school suspension. Hardly a "little boy with a perfect school record" as has been bandied about. I had a friend (and myself) assaulted (by fists and spitting as it happens) at a high school in Florida and the assailant was arrested and got a whole 5 day suspension, so I assume a 10 day has some sort of cause. At this point I do not know all of the facts, but at least I am willing to learn them before passing judgment.

My main concern is honestly with respect to the laws. Right now if Zimmerman was attacked and defended himself rightly he is free to go and if he murdered him (violent crime with a gun fired that resulted in death) Florida law says he serves a mandatory minimum of 25 years (no chance of parole) with a possible maximum of life. Sounds like the laws are awful solid to me and I have sent an Email to my Governor to tell him exactly that.

Androidpk

03-25-2012, 02:58 PM

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 03:49 PM

Well, on recent forms that I've seen, like the Census if I recall correctly, have had had two different parts. One was race, and the other was ethnicity. Or something like that.... And it had caucasian and hispanic on different parts. So, caucasian could be your race, and hispanic could be your ethnicity.

So Hispanic is not a race then...

So how is the Nevada Illegal Immigrant law racial profiling, since they would be profiling.. White's apparently.

People can't have it both ways, to call Zimmerman a White Hispanic is simply a way to try to make this White on Black hate crime.

And as Greg Gutfield would say, if you disagree with me, your a racist, sexiest, bigoted moron.

And once again, using this logic, I would LOVE to see the media refer to the Pres as the first White Black president.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 03:54 PM

And once again you insult me. Because I dared suggest that a balanced approach might be appropriate. Then you're all ZOMG I was balanced in spite of your entry into the thread.

Classy.

Queue you continuing to respond obsessively now with insults. Boring.

Non teens are actually discussing this from a perspective of whether federal power is appropriate. If this was a mature discussion, we could make it about federalism versus anti federalism. It isn't.

I haven't seen anything that suggests a hate crime charge is right, but I think the investigation has been anemic. Personally I'm torn.

Fail troll is still fail... but hey, failure is your middle name. It's your comfort zone.

Queue you responding to this post with more failure, which will prove my point.

Oh, and I'll play your little game: I think this case will ultimately be decided upon the evidence and not in the court of public opinion.

:welcome:

Tgo01

03-25-2012, 03:56 PM

As to the specific case here, I seem to remember reading Trayvon was a 6'2" football player that was about to turn 18 and was visiting his dad because he was serving a 10 day out of school suspension. Hardly a "little boy with a perfect school record" as has been bandied about. I had a friend (and myself) assaulted (by fists and spitting as it happens) at a high school in Florida and the assailant was arrested and got a whole 5 day suspension, so I assume a 10 day has some sort of cause.

I read that supposedly the 10 day suspension was for tardiness. I don't know how they do things in Florida but where I went to school they did NOT suspend you for tardiness. That would be kind of defeating the purpose of punishing him for tardiness I would imagine. But who knows? Maybe it really was for tardiness.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 04:04 PM

I read that supposedly the 10 day suspension was for tardiness. I don't know how they do things in Florida but where I went to school they did NOT suspend you for tardiness. That would be kind of defeating the purpose of punishing him for tardiness I would imagine. But who knows? Maybe it really was for tardiness.

I've never heard of someone being suspended for 10 days for tardiness. Ever.

A 10 day suspension is handed out for something very serious.

Menos

03-25-2012, 04:31 PM

If given 10 days for tardiness, there must have been some pretty serious aggravating factors or past issues in the record. I would think that would normally rate in school suspension or some other even more minor punishment.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 05:04 PM

Here are the behaviors that can lead to a 10 day suspension in my kids school:

LEVEL 1 - ZERO TOLERANCE OFFENSES
• arson
• aggravated battery
• battery on, threat or intimidation of a school board employee, agent, or student
• bomb threats or general threats to school population
• breaking/entering of school board property
• false fire alarms
• gang related activities
• homicide
• kidnapping
• major disruption to a school function
• misrepresentation of facts resulting in public slander toward school board employee or school
• motor vehicle theft
• passing counterfeit money
• possession, sale, purchase, or use of alcoholic beverages
• possession, use, or sale of a firearm, bombs, explosives or a weapon
• possession, use, sale, distribution, purchase, or being under the influence of a controlled substance
• possession, or purchase, either knowingly or unknowingly, of any drug paraphernalia
• possession, or purchase, either knowingly or unknowingly, of any illegal drugs or substance
• robbery
• sale or distribution, or purchase of any substance represented by a student as being a controlled substance
• sexual battery (attempted or actual)
• threats/intimidation
• use of a non-weapon as a weapon
• willfully and knowingly attempting to do bodily harm to a school board employee, agent or student.

Tardiness is considered a level 3 offense... in the same category of these "crimes". In full disclosure, they do say the punishment could be up to 10 days of suspension.

•horseplay which leads to aggressive behavior
• acts of misconduct that interfere with orderly classroom procedures, school functions, extracurricular programs, approved transportation, or a student’s own learning process
• violations of the dress code
• plagiarism/cheating
• display or use of cell phone/electronic devices
• possession of lighters or matches.

Back

03-25-2012, 05:23 PM

You guys are seriously speculating whether Trayvon's high school suspension has any bearing on this?

TheEschaton

03-25-2012, 05:30 PM

You guys are seriously speculating whether Trayvon's high school suspension has any bearing on this?

Well, you know, those girls who like to sleep around....they're just asking to be raped.

Tgo01

03-25-2012, 05:35 PM

You guys are seriously speculating whether Trayvon's high school suspension has any bearing on this?

I think this is the problem when you look at things in extremes. Should his suspension from school have any bearing on whether or not he should have been shot? Of course not, it's pretty silly to even accuse anyone of making such an argument.

RichardCranium

03-25-2012, 05:51 PM

I had a friend (and myself) assaulted (by fists and spitting as it happens) at a high school in Florida and the assailant was arrested and got a whole 5 day suspension, so I assume a 10 day has some sort of cause. At this point I do not know all of the facts, but at least I am willing to learn them before passing judgment.

I think the punishment is automatically doubled if you're black.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 06:03 PM

I think the punishment is automatically doubled if you're black.

And if your white, they give you a medal.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 06:04 PM

I think the punishment is automatically doubled if you're black.

Only a 20% sentencing increase for drug possession and a 20% greater likelihood of getting the death penalty versus life in prison for murder. Interesting all in itself.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 06:05 PM

You guys are seriously speculating whether Trayvon's high school suspension has any bearing on this?

Well, if he was suspended for gang activities, or even something less, like starting a fight in school... are you saying that would not be a factor at all?

If this kid was anything like they are making him out in the media, he would have pissed his pants all the way home while crying for his mommy that someone was after him.

RichardCranium

03-25-2012, 06:07 PM

Only a 20% sentencing. increase for drug possession and a 20% greater likelihood of getting the death penalty versus life in prison for murder. Interesting all in itself.

That speaks more to the color green than the color black.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 06:09 PM

Well, if he was suspended for gang activities, or even something less, like starting a fight in school... are you saying that would not be a factor at all?

If this kid was anything like they are making him out in the media, he would have pissed his pants all the way home while crying for his mommy that someone was after him.

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-620x457.jpg

Hmm.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 06:11 PM

I've never heard of someone being suspended for 10 days for tardiness. Ever.

A 10 day suspension is handed out for something very serious.

I got 8 days for running No Limit Texas Holdem in my school.

3 days for calling a kid a bastard.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 06:12 PM

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-620x457.jpg

Hmm.

Racist.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 06:29 PM

http://www.theblaze.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Trayvon-Martin-George-Zimmerman-620x457.jpg

Hmm.

http://moonbattery.com/george-zimmerman_trayvon-martin_media-bias.jpg

Hmm.

Stanley Burrell

03-25-2012, 06:38 PM

You guys are seriously speculating whether Trayvon's high school suspension has any bearing on this?

I'm not saying anything about any personal opinions regarding the case, but, basically ... yeeeah. So-and-so's high school penalty/reward system for mummified pumpkin carving on Tuesdays doesn't equate.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 06:40 PM

http://moonbattery.com/george-zimmerman_trayvon-martin_media-bias.jpg

Hmm.

I sourced from The Blaze.

And...

http://patdollard.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/george-zimmerman-calls-trayvon-martin-a-coon-585x350.jpg

With more detail, these don't look that much older.

http://tray.site50.net/Trayvon_Martin.jpg

Stanley Burrell

03-25-2012, 07:00 PM

http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/cnishared/tools/shared/mediahub/02/40/97/slideshow_397402_live.0203ns-d.jpg

Back

03-25-2012, 07:04 PM

http://tray.site50.net/Trayvon_Martin.jpg

I see a 17 year old kid acting like a 17 year old kid. How someone could suggest that this is any kind of justification for his murder is insanity.

Stanley Burrell

03-25-2012, 07:08 PM

Word is bond: fix your clothes. Put a shirt on. Pants saggin' back when used to meant you had a skirt on.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 07:16 PM

I see a 17 year old kid acting like a 17 year old kid. How someone could suggest that this is any kind of justification for his murder is insanity.

Who is the someone you are referring to?

You're pulling a pretty good WB imitation at this point... and that isn't a compliment.

4a6c1

03-25-2012, 07:17 PM

I got 8 days for running No Limit Texas Holdem in my school.

3 days for calling a kid a bastard.

Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaha. I only got 3 days suspension for creating a social club in my Dallas hotel room during the Junior Statemen Convention that was just an excuse for strip poker and discussion on marxism. It was innocent I swear!

They used to suspend kids for the dumbest things though. Do they still do that?

Like PB never got in trouble for anything in school. I bet he never left the principals office!

Latrinsorm

03-25-2012, 07:24 PM

I found this article insanely Insightful about media and our country's ideas of race.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/25/justic...ss_igoogle_cnn

"The case has sparked a national debate over the Florida law and concerns about racial profiling. Martin was black and Zimmerman is white Hispanic."

Have you EVER heard the media, or anyone ever call President Obama, White Black? Since when do they bring this up? Every form I have ever seen state and federal level always asks if your Hispanic, or consider yourself primarily Hispanic. NOW, they have to put forth the fact in the media that he is White. Since of course, Hispanic on Black crime is not new, nor something they want to talk about.Hispanic and not Hispanic are ethnicities, white and black are races. In a similar way, you can have a tall fat person, a tall skinny person, a short fat person, a short skinny person. They are independent axes. People could call President Obama non-Hispanic black, but because there are only two choices for ethnicity it's implied by just calling him black. Calling someone white black would be like calling them fat skinny - just doesn't make sense.
major disruption to a school functionSo Trayvon asked a porn star to prom?

Back

03-25-2012, 07:30 PM

Who is the someone you are referring to?

You're pulling a pretty good WB imitation at this point... and that isn't a compliment.

Feeling guilty?

I meant whoever made that little racist photo montage asking people to imagine him in a disguise stalking around your neighborhood in the (chocolate) rain.

Parkbandit

03-25-2012, 07:36 PM

Feeling guilty?

Not at all, since I have nothing to feel guilty about.

I meant whoever made that little racist photo montage asking people to imagine him in a disguise stalking around your neighborhood in the (chocolate) rain.

Still doesn't say that the author believed that the way he was dressed justified his murder.

Drew

03-25-2012, 07:39 PM

Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaha. I only got 3 days suspension for creating a social club in my Dallas hotel room during the Junior Statemen Convention that was just an excuse for strip poker and discussion on marxism. It was innocent I swear!

I got kicked out of JSA because they found me with a girl in her hotel room during our Washington DC trip.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 07:42 PM

Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaha. I only got 3 days suspension for creating a social club in my Dallas hotel room during the Junior Statemen Convention that was just an excuse for strip poker and discussion on marxism. It was innocent I swear!

They used to suspend kids for the dumbest things though. Do they still do that?

Like PB never got in trouble for anything in school. I bet he never left the principals office!

Still do sometimes. Private schools are usually better.

I got kicked out of JSA because they found me with a girl in her hotel room during our Washington DC trip.

Epic.

Back

03-25-2012, 07:48 PM

I was suspended a day for being caught ditching school. Made no sense.

4a6c1

03-25-2012, 07:49 PM

I got kicked out of JSA because they found me with a girl in her hotel room during our Washington DC trip.

You had a bad room mate!

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 07:59 PM

Hispanic and not Hispanic are ethnicities, white and black are races. In a similar way, you can have a tall fat person, a tall skinny person, a short fat person, a short skinny person. They are independent axes. People could call President Obama non-Hispanic black, but because there are only two choices for ethnicity it's implied by just calling him black. Calling someone white black would be like calling them fat skinny - just doesn't make sense.So Trayvon asked a porn star to prom?

So basically, you proved my point then in another regard, Illegal alien laws can NOT be considered racially profiling Hispanics, because Hispanic is not a race. Neither is Mexican either.

So if a Mexican killed this kid, it would be White on Black crime.. got it.

Also, Since Obama is both White and Black, I can refer to him which ever way I choose then.

4a6c1

03-25-2012, 08:14 PM

This has turned into a My Little Pony world debate.

Example:

1) ie. race has no implications whatsoever in our perfect my little pony world.

2) This just in. A rational discussion will not be possible in this thread due to the overabundance of my little pony world perspectives. End transmission.

Showal

03-25-2012, 09:14 PM

I like how in PBs school, homicide gets a 10 day suspension!

And when did Back starting quoting normally (conformist style) again?

Kuyuk

03-25-2012, 09:17 PM

I never got suspended.. Almost once when I cracked a kids head open, but I requested in school suspension instead, and got it.

Drew

03-25-2012, 09:37 PM

You had a bad room mate!

Not really, we kind of lost track of time, we had snuck away during some group meeting or something. So everyone came back to their rooms and they did some room checks. I hid in the shower in the bathroom while they checked the girls room, and it was quickly determined that I wasn't in my room with my two roomies. So they stationed like 5 teachers/parents in the hallway to make sure I didn't sneak back in. But I had an idea, we had like 12 rooms all in the same hallway with kids from our school in them. So I called all twelve rooms and told them of my plan for everyone to stand by their doors with papers and sheets or whatever in their hands at 4:30. Then my friend Tanya would run out of her room and yell really loudly and that would signal everyone to come out and throw up all their stuff and just run around like chickens with their heads cut off generally making a huge distraction. My plan was to sneak back to my room in the confusion and maintain I'd been sitting on the toilet the whole time.

At the agreed upon time all 6 rooms of guys burst out but only 2 rooms of girls did it (Tanya's room and the room I was in). Since the girls were on one end of the hallway and the guys on the other and the room I was in happened to be nearer the end of the girls side the distraction didn't work quite as planned because I had to cross an empty gap of about 20 feet (I left the room at a dead sprint as soon as the distraction started, I probably should have waited a couple seconds to let the guys disperse nearer the girls side more). I was caught pink handed.

This all happened near the end of my senior year, I'd already applied to my colleges and listed Junior Statesmen of America on all my apps so that was fine. The lady who ran the club called me to her office and said I had two choices, I could write a 5000 word paper about how I was wrong and how I would improve my behavior. Or I could be kicked out of the club. I asked her, as it was very near the end of the year, if there were anymore scheduled trips for the club. She said there were none. I elected to be kicked out.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 09:38 PM

Not really, we kind of lost track of time, we had snuck away during some group meeting or something. So everyone came back to their rooms and they did some room checks. I hid in the shower in the bathroom while they checked the girls room, and it was quickly determined that I wasn't in my room with my two roomies. So they stationed like 5 teachers/parents in the hallway to make sure I didn't sneak back in. But I had an idea, we had like 12 rooms all in the same hallway with kids from our school in them. So I called all twelve rooms and told them of my plan for everyone to stand by their doors with papers and sheets or whatever in their hands at 4:30. Then my friend Tanya would run out of her room and yell really loudly and that would signal everyone to come out and throw up all their stuff and just run around like chickens with their heads cut off generally making a huge distraction. My plan was to sneak back to my room in the confusion and maintain I'd been sitting on the toilet the whole time.

At the agreed upon time all 6 rooms of guys burst out but only 2 rooms of girls did it (Tanya's room and the room I was in). Since the girls were on one end of the hallway and the guys on the other and the room I was in happened to be nearer the end of the girls side the distraction didn't work quite as planned because I had to cross an empty gap of about 20 feet (I left the room at a dead sprint as soon as the distraction started, I probably should have waited a couple seconds to let the guys disperse nearer the girls side more). I was caught pink handed.

This all happened near the end of my senior year, I'd already applied to my colleges and listed Junior Statesmen of America on all my apps so that was fine. The lady who ran the club called me to her office and said I had two choices, I could write a 5000 word paper about how I was wrong and how I would improve my behavior. Or I could be kicked out of the club. I asked her, as it was very near the end of the year, if there were anymore scheduled trips for the club. She said there were none. I elected to be kicked out.

LOL. 5000 words.

Tgo01

03-25-2012, 09:40 PM

I got suspended from school for having too big a penis.

TheEschaton

03-25-2012, 10:14 PM

I was never anywhere near being suspended. I got JUG pretty regularly (in a Jesuit run school, JUG was detention, short for Justice Under God though the priests maintained it was from the Latin jugum, for yoke, or burden).

I once got in a fight in my school, and I still wasn't suspended. Mainly because I was an honor student and the kid I fought provoked me and was super racist and on the verge of being kicked out.

Still got JUG for 2 weeks though, that blew.

Atlanteax

03-25-2012, 11:13 PM

Atlanteax

03-25-2012, 11:14 PM

Tgo01

03-25-2012, 11:18 PM

Sounds like school officials are prejudiced against the IQ challenged.

Menos

03-25-2012, 11:30 PM

I see a 17 year old kid acting like a 17 year old kid. How someone could suggest that this is any kind of justification for his murder is insanity.

What we are suggesting is that absent actual facts, we are not willing to condemn a man to death in prison. The result of a gun related murder in Florida is a life sentence. Right now we have conflicting reports, including ones from the police who say Zimmerman had defensive wounds and an eye witness says Zimmerman was attacking him. Exactly what part of the current set of information (not emotional feelings against either hispanics or firearms in general) convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not acting in his own defense?

As to the issues you now take with bringing up his school history, it is in DIRECT response to the disingenuous coverage of the story using his supposed perfect record and non-violence to convince a large number of people on an emotional level that zimmerman must be a white supremacist sociopath running around and killing black people.

Jarvan

03-25-2012, 11:41 PM

What we are suggesting is that absent actual facts, we are not willing to condemn a man to death in prison. The result of a gun related murder in Florida is a life sentence. Right now we have conflicting reports, including ones from the police who say Zimmerman had defensive wounds and an eye witness says Zimmerman was attacking him. Exactly what part of the current set of information (not emotional feelings against either hispanics or firearms in general) convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not acting in his own defense?

As to the issues you now take with bringing up his school history, it is in DIRECT response to the disingenuous coverage of the story using his supposed perfect record and non-violence to convince a large number of people on an emotional level that zimmerman must be a white supremacist sociopath running around and killing black people.

It's Back your talking to. Zimmerman is a Racist out to murder as many black kids as possible.

I'd also like to point out again, why the hell is Zimmerman White? Why don't they call his Hispanic? He LOOKS more Hispanic then white.

Answer... Hispanic on Black crime doesn't sell as well, or provide a means for the real racist people -cough- Sharpton, Jackson -cough- to spew their messages.

Warriorbird

03-25-2012, 11:52 PM

What we are suggesting is that absent actual facts, we are not willing to condemn a man to death in prison. The result of a gun related murder in Florida is a life sentence. Right now we have conflicting reports, including ones from the police who say Zimmerman had defensive wounds and an eye witness says Zimmerman was attacking him. Exactly what part of the current set of information (not emotional feelings against either hispanics or firearms in general) convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not acting in his own defense?

As to the issues you now take with bringing up his school history, it is in DIRECT response to the disingenuous coverage of the story using his supposed perfect record and non-violence to convince a large number of people on an emotional level that zimmerman must be a white supremacist sociopath running around and killing black people.

But you are willing to suggest he should be immediately set free?

You need to notice both illogical sides here.

Delias

03-25-2012, 11:57 PM

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 12:21 AM

So basically, you proved my point then in another regard, Illegal alien laws can NOT be considered racially profiling Hispanics, because Hispanic is not a race. Neither is Mexican either.

So if a Mexican killed this kid, it would be White on Black crime.. got it.

Also, Since Obama is both White and Black, I can refer to him which ever way I choose then.It turns out racial profiling is defined as "the use of an individual's race or ethnicity by law enforcement personnel...", so yes, it can. It's kind of a non-issue though, it's not like you can say "it's not racial profiling, it's ethnic profiling, completely different form of bigotry guys" and anyone would come around.
It's Back your talking to. Zimmerman is a Racist out to murder as many black kids as possible.

I'd also like to point out again, why the hell is Zimmerman White? Why don't they call his Hispanic? He LOOKS more Hispanic then white.

Answer... Hispanic on Black crime doesn't sell as well, or provide a means for the real racist people -cough- Sharpton, Jackson -cough- to spew their messages.It could be a conspiracy, or you could be reading too much into it. I don't know man, you seem to be the person most hung up about the whole race/ethnicity thing.

Delias

03-26-2012, 12:26 AM

Also, maybe it's because I believe in constructive cowardice, but if someone is following me my desire becomes getting away from them, not confronting them. Any teenager worth his salt knows back ways through his neighborhood and can easily evade authorities, racists, or most things that aren't dogs.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 12:26 AM

I don't know man, you seem to be the person most hung up about the whole race/ethnicity thing.

Brown people have denied him opportunities all his life! Just like how gay people cause the dissolution of straight marriage.

Back

03-26-2012, 12:34 AM

What we are suggesting is that absent actual facts, we are not willing to condemn a man to death in prison.

How about these basic facts? The unarmed 17 year old kid who did nothing wrong is dead and his 23 year old killer has not even been arrested.

The result of a gun related murder in Florida is a life sentence. Right now we have conflicting reports, including ones from the police who say Zimmerman had defensive wounds and an eye witness says Zimmerman was attacking him.

After Zimmerman followed him armed with a loaded gun. Again, the unarmed 17 year old kid did nothing wrong.

Exactly what part of the current set of information (not emotional feelings against either hispanics or firearms in general) convince you beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not acting in his own defense?

You don't know me from Jack so I won't take offense to the bolded part.

I will just say from the facts that we do know my opinion is Zimmerman needs to be in jail for murder.

As to the issues you now take with bringing up his school history, it is in DIRECT response to the disingenuous coverage of the story using his supposed perfect record and non-violence to convince a large number of people on an emotional level that zimmerman must be a white supremacist sociopath running around and killing black people.

Tin foil hat time.

How about it just is what it is? Zimmerman fucked up big time, a young man and his family were robbed of his life too soon, and Zimmerman has become what he feared most... a menace to society?

Take race, clothes, time of day, neighborhood, weather, age, sex, religion, political preference, hair style, shoelaces, and everything else out of the equation and you have an armed person stalking an unarmed person who wasn't doing anything wrong, a confrontation ensues initiated by the armed person, and the armed person kills the unarmed person.

Jarvan

03-26-2012, 12:44 AM

Brown people have denied him opportunities all his life! Just like how gay people cause the dissolution of straight marriage.

Nope, sorry to disappoint you, But I could care less about race, and I ave never complained about a so called minority that got ahead of me cause of their race. If they got ahead, it's cause I didn't work hard enough.

As for Gay people and straight marriage... Are you stupid? Wait.. no need to answer.

For your information, I am all for gay marriage, they have just as much right to a shitty life as straight people. I am also for Polygamy between adults for the same reason I am for Gay Marriage. Everyone deserves the right to be happy/depressed.

My so called problem with race in this case is the fact that the media, and the race baiters keep bringing it up. If this headline had read, Hispanic male shoots and kills Black teenager, ~I~ don't think people would have been as up in arms. If it had read, Black Male shoots and kills Hispanic Teenager, I doubt we would even have hear much about this case.

So what happens.. SOME people want attention, so the focus on the fact that the guys father was white, and refer to him as White. He could think of himself as Latino, Hispanic, or whichever nationality his mother was.. or hell, maybe just a damn American. Nope.. doesn't matter, he's white cause it fits for a certain narrative people want to express.

One last thing I would like to point out... How many teenagers -any race- that are basically not a thug, would approach a man that had been following them, and end up in an altercation? Now as far as I can tell from the sudden influx of eye witnesses that didn't really WITNESS anything.. Zimmerman didn't catch up to the kid in his car get out and start beating him. Infact, they haven't mentioned any wounds on the teenager other then the gunshot. So far, all reports are Zimmerman got out of his car, and Martin confronted HIM. This is NOT the normal action of a scared, or even semi-scared teenager.

Does this need to be investigated, yes. Should this have happened, no, not really. Should Zimmerman have been arrested, maybe, but based on the LAWS in the state, he really wouldn't be held very long at all. Any good attorney would get him out on bail fairly fast.

Course.. then the New Black Panther party would decide to prob kill him. But you know.. there is nothing wrong with that.

Jarvan

03-26-2012, 12:49 AM

How about these basic facts? The unarmed 17 year old kid who did nothing wrong is dead and his 23 year old killer has not even been arrested.

After Zimmerman followed him armed with a loaded gun. Again, the unarmed 17 year old kid did nothing wrong.

You don't know me from Jack so I won't take offense to the bolded part.

I will just say from the facts that we do know my opinion is Zimmerman needs to be in jail for murder.

Tin foil hat time.

How about it just is what it is? Zimmerman fucked up big time, a young man and his family were robbed of his life too soon, and Zimmerman has become what he feared most... a menace to society?

Take race, clothes, time of day, neighborhood, weather, age, sex, religion, political preference, hair style, shoelaces, and everything else out of the equation and you have an armed person stalking an unarmed person who wasn't doing anything wrong, a confrontation ensues initiated by the armed person, and the armed person kills the unarmed person.

The Bolded part is wrong, he is older then that.

The italics are wrong, based on the facts of the case, he fought with, struck, injured, and confronted Zimmerman. Lets see... legally wrong, in the assault, yes. Confronted him, was stupidly wrong.. you don't confront a stalker when you are unarmed.. Should the teenager died? no, but to say he did NOTHING wrong, is like saying Zimmerman had no right looking into a suspicious person in his neighborhood.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 12:54 AM

Nope, sorry to disappoint you, But I could care less about race, and I ave never complained about a so called minority that got ahead of me cause of their race. If they got ahead, it's cause I didn't work hard enough.

As for Gay people and straight marriage... Are you stupid? Wait.. no need to answer.

For your information, I am all for gay marriage, they have just as much right to a shitty life as straight people. I am also for Polygamy between adults for the same reason I am for Gay Marriage. Everyone deserves the right to be happy/depressed.

My so called problem with race in this case is the fact that the media, and the race baiters keep bringing it up. If this headline had read, Hispanic male shoots and kills Black teenager, ~I~ don't think people would have been as up in arms. If it had read, Black Male shoots and kills Hispanic Teenager, I doubt we would even have hear much about this case.

So what happens.. SOME people want attention, so the focus on the fact that the guys father was white, and refer to him as White. He could think of himself as Latino, Hispanic, or whichever nationality his mother was.. or hell, maybe just a damn American. Nope.. doesn't matter, he's white cause it fits for a certain narrative people want to express.

One last thing I would like to point out... How many teenagers -any race- that are basically not a thug, would approach a man that had been following them, and end up in an altercation? Now as far as I can tell from the sudden influx of eye witnesses that didn't really WITNESS anything.. Zimmerman didn't catch up to the kid in his car get out and start beating him. Infact, they haven't mentioned any wounds on the teenager other then the gunshot. So far, all reports are Zimmerman got out of his car, and Martin confronted HIM. This is NOT the normal action of a scared, or even semi-scared teenager.

Does this need to be investigated, yes. Should this have happened, no, not really. Should Zimmerman have been arrested, maybe, but based on the LAWS in the state, he really wouldn't be held very long at all. Any good attorney would get him out on bail fairly fast.

Course.. then the New Black Panther party would decide to prob kill him. But you know.. there is nothing wrong with that.

Notably Zimmerman had what, 100 pounds on him? This also wasn't some sort of car pursuit.

Let's take race out of it.

You're immediately cool with somebody with a gun following another person at night, provoking a confrontation, getting punched, and then shooting the person?

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 12:57 AM

Take race, clothes, time of day, neighborhood, weather, age, sex, religion, political preference, hair style, shoelaces, and everything else out of the equation and you have an armed person stalking an unarmed person who wasn't doing anything wrong, a confrontation ensues initiated by the armed person, and the armed person kills the unarmed person.

You say you want to remove all outside influences from this case and focus on the facts yet most of the 'facts' as you present them are just pure opinion. It's fine you have these opinions as you are certainly entitled to them but I think it's best we clarify opinion from fact.

Fact: Zimmerman was following Martin
Fact: Zimmerman shot Martin
Fact: Martin was unarmed

That's really about the only facts of this case.

Your opinions:

Opinion: Martin wasn't doing anything wrong
Opinion: Zimmerman confronted Martin

Drew

03-26-2012, 12:58 AM

Notably Zimmerman had what, 100 pounds on him? This also wasn't some sort of car pursuit.

Let's take race out of it.

You're cool with somebody with a gun following another person at night, provoking a confrontation, getting punched, and then shooting the person?

That's the real issue isn't it. I don't know if he actually provoked a confrontation or not, unless you believe that asking someone what they are doing is provoking a confrontation.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 01:03 AM

That's the real issue isn't it. I don't know if he actually provoked a confrontation or not, unless you believe that asking someone what they are doing is provoking a confrontation.

Do you really think it was that simple from "They always get away!" and following when told not to?

Back

03-26-2012, 01:08 AM

You say you want to remove all outside influences from this case and focus on the facts yet most of the 'facts' as you present them are just pure opinion. It's fine you have these opinions as you are certainly entitled to them but I think it's best we clarify opinion from fact.

Fact: Zimmerman was following Martin
Fact: Zimmerman shot Martin
Fact: Martin was unarmed

That's really about the only facts of this case.

Your opinions:

Opinion: Martin wasn't doing anything wrong
Opinion: Zimmerman confronted Martin

In the 911 call Zimmerman describes the kid as walking, looking around, with his hands in his waistband. Last I heard that was not illegal.

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation as soon as he started following him. Had Zimmerman not followed him the kid would not be dead.

Archigeek

03-26-2012, 01:18 AM

Ramblings:

I don't believe that outweighing the teen by 100 pounds makes much difference. I'm about Zimmerman's weight, and 6'-7" tall, but I'll freely admit that in spite of being in reasonable shape, I'm a pretty shitty fighter. What little we know about Zimmerman says to me that he probably is too. That said, the one way it does matter, is that it seems very unlikely that a 140 pound kid voluntarily got into a fight with someone older and 100 pounds heavier than him. People don't like to start fights with people that much bigger than they are, unless they have a whole lot of confidence in their fighting skills, or a ton of anger. I don't think this kid had that kind of confidence or anger. My guess, and that's what it is, is that Zimmerman tried to detain the kid and they got in a fight when the kid didn't want to be detained, and Zimmerman found himself on the losing end, panicked, pulled out his gun and shot the kid.

I also don't buy that Zimmerman got out of his car to see what street he was on. Who does that? No one does that. When you're not sure what street you're on, you slow down and look at a frickin' sign. I can't imagine a situation where getting out of the vehicle would make it easier to tell what street you're on, unless perhaps the street sign was blocked by trees and he couldn't maneuver his vehicle to see the sign. Also, he's on neighborhood watch in suburbia. The idea that he doesn't know the streets in his neighborhood seems doubly unlikely. So if you buy that bit of conjecture, why would he lie about that? It just doesn't make any sense, unless we're missing something important.

I don't think recordings of 911 calls should be released to the public. It could have a chilling affect on potential callers. We want people to be encouraged to call 911 when there's a serious problem, not worried about their voice being all over the news.

Poor Nancy Grace, what's she going to do, a dead black teenage boy! It just doesn't fit her normal dead person schtick. Not white, not female... can she handle the transition or will she finally (please please please) keel over on the set so we never have to listen to her again?

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 01:19 AM

In the 911 call Zimmerman describes the kid as walking, looking around, with his hands in his waistband. Last I heard that was not illegal.

All that proves is that at the time of the phone call Zimmerman had not witnessed Martin doing anything wrong.

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation as soon as he started following him.

That's kind of pushing it isn't it?

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 01:37 AM

Well, a private citizen has no right to pursue and detain another private citizen unless making a citizen's arrest, which kind of requires a definite breaking of the law with little chance of police showing up in time to detain the suspect.

From what we know of the 911 phone call, the kid started walking away, Zimmerman followed him, presumably caught up to him, and the kid asked him why are you following me?

From there, it's somewhat unclear what happened, but there are witnesses who say:
1) they heard "a small boy crying"
2) they heard the n-word used by someone.
3) they heard Zimmerman call for help
4) they heard a shot, which then (in one witness's words) stopped the crying
5) they saw someone in a red shirt being beaten up by someone else.

The third and fifth fact are the only ones in Zimmerman's favor, and they're context specific at that. Namely, for them to be in his favor, the kid, upon being caught up to, just attacked Zimmerman "unprovoked" (though any good prosecutor could make the case he was provoked), and was about to beat him to death. Only in that situation would shooting him be "self-defense". However, that seems unlikely, because if he was going to launch himself at Zimmerman unprovoked, it seems like he wouldn't have asked "Why are you following me?" first. I would bet good money that Zimmerman tried to detain him or catch him or something.

But every fact up to the point where Zimmerman caught up to the kid, goes against Zimmerman. Badly. Including the part where he has a chronic habit of calling 911 and reporting supposedly suspicious people.

Drew

03-26-2012, 01:38 AM

I don't think recordings of 911 calls should be released to the public. It could have a chilling affect on potential callers. We want people to be encouraged to call 911 when there's a serious problem, not worried about their voice being all over the news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13HYMm6mGmw

Back

03-26-2012, 01:38 AM

All that proves is that at the time of the phone call Zimmerman had not witnessed Martin doing anything wrong.

Is English your second language? Thats exactly the point I was trying make.

That's kind of pushing it isn't it?

Is it? If someone starts intentionally following someone else around thats just asking for a confrontation.

If I am walking down the street not engaged in any illegal activity and someone starts following me I am going to start to become concerned no matter what they look like. Even if they look like a happy Mr. Rogers you know there are some Jeffery Dahlmer mother fuckers out there just waiting to eat your ass for dinner.

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 01:56 AM

All that proves is that at the time of the phone call Zimmerman had not witnessed Martin doing anything wrong.

Is English your second language? Thats exactly the point I was trying make.

How about these basic facts? The unarmed 17 year old kid who did nothing wrong

If you meant to say "at the time of Zimmerman's 911 call Zimmerman had not witnessed Martin doing anything wrong" then why didn't you just say that? You do know there is a difference between "Martin did nothing wrong" and "Zimmerman had not witnessed Martin doing anything wrong at one point in time" right?

Well, a private citizen has no right to pursue and detain another private citizen unless making a citizen's arrest

That's another assumption isn't it? Do we know Zimmerman was trying to detain him? Do we know Zimmerman 'caught up to' Martin because Zimmerman was trying to catch up to him or maybe because Martin slowed on purpose or possibly even walked towards Zimmerman to see what he wanted?

Archigeek

03-26-2012, 02:07 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13HYMm6mGmw

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about!

Archigeek

03-26-2012, 02:10 AM

That's another assumption isn't it? Do we know Zimmerman was trying to detain him? Do we know Zimmerman 'caught up to' Martin because Zimmerman was trying to catch up to him or maybe because Martin slowed on purpose or possibly even walked towards Zimmerman to see what he wanted?

99% of these posts are full of assumption and conjecture. Hint: none of us are working the case. And for what it's worth, TheE didn't say Zimmerman did that. His statement was much more general and abou the nature of a citizen's arrest.

Delias

03-26-2012, 02:13 AM

99% of these posts are full of assumption and conjecture. Hint: none of us are working the case. And for what it's worth, TheE didn't say Zimmerman did that. His statement was much more general and abou the nature of a citizen's arrest.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-steps-to-making-ill-advised-citizens-arrest/

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 02:23 AM

99% of these posts are full of assumption and conjecture. Hint: none of us are working the case.

Yeah that's sort of the point I'm trying to make here.

And for what it's worth, TheE didn't say Zimmerman did that. His statement was much more general and abou the nature of a citizen's arrest.

I would bet good money that Zimmerman tried to detain him or catch him or something.

I must be getting tired because I have read this three times now and I STILL think TheE said exactly that. Someone explain what TheE is really saying here then.

Archigeek

03-26-2012, 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by TheEschaton
I would bet good money that Zimmerman tried to detain him or catch him or something.

I must be getting tired because I have read this three times now and I STILL think TheE said exactly that. Someone explain what TheE is really saying here then.

The old quote switcharoo eh? You originally quoted this:

Well, a private citizen has no right to pursue and detain another private citizen unless making a citizen's arrest

In order to make this point:

Originally Posted by Tgo01
That's another assumption isn't it? Do we know Zimmerman was trying to detain him? Do we know Zimmerman 'caught up to' Martin because Zimmerman was trying to catch up to him or maybe because Martin slowed on purpose or possibly even walked towards Zimmerman to see what he wanted?

Maybe you just clipped the wrong part. Maybe you are tired. I'm tired.

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 02:37 AM

The old quote switcharoo eh? You originally quoted this:

It's all in the same post, I just quoted the first bit there to confuse you so you would accuse me of using 'the old quote switcharoo.' You have activated my trap!

4a6c1

03-26-2012, 03:05 AM

Poor Nancy Grace, what's she going to do, a dead black teenage boy! It just doesn't fit her normal dead person schtick. Not white, not female... can she handle the transition or will she finally (please please please) keel over on the set so we never have to listen to her again?

:lol2:

Menos

03-26-2012, 11:03 AM

But you are willing to suggest he should be immediately set free?

You need to notice both illogical sides here.

You mean until/if the police have probable cause to make an arrest? I am pretty sure that is how the legal system is supposed to work.

Menos

03-26-2012, 11:07 AM

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 11:08 AM

You mean until/if the police have probable cause to make an arrest? I am pretty sure that is how the legal system is supposed to work.

They have and had more than enough to indict.

Menos

03-26-2012, 11:23 AM

Is it? If someone starts intentionally following someone else around thats just asking for a confrontation.

If I am walking down the street not engaged in any illegal activity and someone starts following me I am going to start to become concerned no matter what they look like. Even if they look like a happy Mr. Rogers you know there are some Jeffery Dahlmer mother fuckers out there just waiting to eat your ass for dinner.

Concerned is fine, but physically assaulting that other person who is not engaged in any illegal activity? Wouldn't that be attacking someone for being suspicious, exactly the thing you say is so wrong?

I have no more reason to believe Zimmerman started the altercation than that Trayvon did. Maybe he took exception to the old fat man following him and escalated the situation. If Trayvon did so, attacked Zimmerman and had him pinned on the ground and was beating him he would not only be justified in shooting him, he would have been clear under Florida law even before the castle doctrine (since being down stops his fleeing).

The thing is, I am also not saying that "must" be what happened. I am saying we should get actual facts before deciding what happened. You have already decided absent a clear picture of the facts.

Menos

03-26-2012, 11:25 AM

They have and had more than enough to indict.

The old joke about being able to indict a ham sandwich comes to mind.

Back

03-26-2012, 12:09 PM

Concerned is fine, but physically assaulting that other person who is not engaged in any illegal activity? Wouldn't that be attacking someone for being suspicious, exactly the thing you say is so wrong?

I have no more reason to believe Zimmerman started the altercation than that Trayvon did. Maybe he took exception to the old fat man following him and escalated the situation. If Trayvon did so, attacked Zimmerman and had him pinned on the ground and was beating him he would not only be justified in shooting him, he would have been clear under Florida law even before the castle doctrine (since being down stops his fleeing).

The thing is, I am also not saying that "must" be what happened. I am saying we should get actual facts before deciding what happened. You have already decided absent a clear picture of the facts.

I disagree. I am basing my opinion on facts we DO know.

You are the one who is speculating going to far as to question why Trayvon was suspended from school as if that had any bearing what-so-ever on what happened. If you want to go down that road look at Zimmerman's past concerning battery against an officer, domestic abuse disputes, and having called 911 45 times since January of this year and the picture becomes even more clear. Zimmerman is the menace to society and killed an innocent 17 year old kid.

When Zimmerman started following Trayvon is when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation in my opinion. Again, repeating this, Zimmerman was armed and actively following Trayvon who was unarmed and not doing anything illegal.

If the stand your ground law applied to anyone in this situation it was Trayvon. In my opinion.

Androidpk

03-26-2012, 12:32 PM

New witness saw Trayvon... 03-25-2012 05:03 PM No intelligent response? Hmm. -rojo

Don't be so grumpy, I agreed with you from the get go.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 12:35 PM

One last thing I would like to point out... How many teenagers -any race- that are basically not a thug, would approach a man that had been following them, and end up in an altercation? Now as far as I can tell from the sudden influx of eye witnesses that didn't really WITNESS anything.. Zimmerman didn't catch up to the kid in his car get out and start beating him. Infact, they haven't mentioned any wounds on the teenager other then the gunshot. So far, all reports are Zimmerman got out of his car, and Martin confronted HIM. This is NOT the normal action of a scared, or even semi-scared teenager.As a football player, don't you think it's reasonable that his fight or flight response had been conditioned towards fight?

More generally, I think you have been not-a-teenager for too long if you really believe your psychological analysis.

Androidpk

03-26-2012, 12:41 PM

As a football player, don't you think it's reasonable that his fight or flight response had been conditioned towards fight?

Unless he's a running back..

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 12:42 PM

Unless he's a running back..

Or a wide receiver....

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 12:46 PM

Menos

03-26-2012, 12:46 PM

When Zimmerman started following Trayvon is when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation in my opinion. Again, repeating this, Zimmerman was armed and actively following Trayvon who was unarmed and not doing anything illegal.

If the stand your ground law applied to anyone in this situation it was Trayvon. In my opinion.

Either you do not understand the application of this law (it is in response to force and not to just being followed) or else you have constructed a story in your head of Zimmerman starting a physical altercation. Without knowing whom attacked who, I am not willing to commit to saying either was the aggressor. It could have been Zimmerman or it could have been Trayvon. You, for reasons known only to you, have decided it must be Zimmerman and are looking only for ways to reinforce that belief and ignoring any that may contradict it. There is no reasonable way the facts (not emotions or opinions) currently point sufficiently to one or the other having to be the culprit to the exclusion of the other.

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 12:48 PM

Running backs count, they run towards the aggressors: fight response.
Wide receivers count, they shoot themselves in the leg: fight response.
The only ones who don't count are quarterbacks, and obviously this kid wasn't a quarterback. (BECAUSE HE'S BLACK!!!)

Running backs try to avoid the agressors.
Wide receivers that are armed shoot themselves in the leg, this kid wasn't armed apparently.
Warren Mood is a sad.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 12:48 PM

Either you do not understand the application of this law (it is in response to force and not to just being followed) or else you have constructed a story in your head of Zimmerman starting a physical altercation. Without knowing whom attacked who, I am not willing to commit to saying either was the aggressor. It could have been Zimmerman or it could have been Trayvon. You, for reasons known only to you, have decided it must be Zimmerman and are looking only for ways to reinforce that belief and ignoring any that may contradict it. There is no reasonable way the facts (not emotions or opinions) currently point sufficiently to one or the other having to be the culprit to the exclusion of the other.Whom is the formal case, and because you wear formal clothes to a funeral but not necessarily a prison the person who is attacked would be "whom", so it's "who attacked whom".

Another trick is to substitute "he" for "who" and "him" for "whom". Him attacked he doesn't sound right, he attacked him is right on the money.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 12:50 PM

Running backs try to avoid the agressors.
Wide receivers that are armed shoot themselves in the leg, this kid wasn't armed apparently.
Warren Mood is a sad.Running backs who run the wrong way aren't running backs for long, that's what a flight response means.
We know the kid was armed with something, Anticor, he was wearing a hoodie. Try to keep up.

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 12:51 PM

Running backs who run the wrong way aren't running backs for long, that's what a flight response means.
We know the kid was armed with something, Anticor, he was wearing a hoodie. Try to keep up.

They are running away from the parents and coaches who are, in school sports, the bigger aggressors. Try and keep up.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 12:54 PM

They are running away from the parents and coaches who are, in school sports, the bigger aggressors. Try and keep up.I read the docudrama the Great Santini, the most aggressive parents run along the sidelines in time with the children. Do you want to cross me on obscure school-mandated reading? Are you aware of the inevitable consequences?

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 12:57 PM

I say bring it on. As soon as I show any aggression you'll be forced to tuck tail and run.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 01:00 PM

I say bring it on. As soon as I show any aggression you'll be forced to tuck tail and run.Your ignorance is your undoing. In high school I was conditioned in that most masculine and belligerent of sports: cross country. I will steadily increase my pace uphill all up in your business.

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 01:01 PM

So you're conditioned in running away...

Androidpk

03-26-2012, 01:02 PM

So you're conditioned in running away...

At a brisk and steady pace, don't forget that.

Back

03-26-2012, 01:02 PM

Either you do not understand the application of this law (it is in response to force and not to just being followed) or else you have constructed a story in your head of Zimmerman starting a physical altercation. Without knowing whom attacked who, I am not willing to commit to saying either was the aggressor. It could have been Zimmerman or it could have been Trayvon. You, for reasons known only to you, have decided it must be Zimmerman and are looking only for ways to reinforce that belief and ignoring any that may contradict it. There is no reasonable way the facts (not emotions or opinions) currently point sufficiently to one or the other having to be the culprit to the exclusion of the other.

It is my opinion that once Zimmerman, an armed man, started following Trayvon, an unarmed kid who was not doing anything illegal, is when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation that resulted in Zimmerman killing Trayvon. I believe that my opinion is based on the facts that we have and not on speculation.

So far no other FACTS have convinced me otherwise. The absence of information is not a fact and does not convince me otherwise. In fact, I would say that trying to consider the absence of information in an effort to base a decision is exactly what speculation is.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 01:02 PM

But in an aggressive, masculine way. Is that brave? Brave is a strong word, perhaps the word is valiant.

Latrinsorm

03-26-2012, 01:03 PM

Backlash, come on man. We were almost done doing a thing here. You couldn't have waited another minute?

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 01:05 PM

It is my opinion that once Zimmerman, an armed man, started following Trayvon, an unarmed kid who was not doing anything illegal, is when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation that resulted in Zimmerman killing Trayvon. I believe that my opinion is based on the facts that we have and not on speculation.

So far no other FACTS have convinced me otherwise. The absence of information is not a fact and does not convince me otherwise. In fact, I would say that trying to consider the absence of information in an effort to base a decision is exactly what speculation is.

I don't think Trayvon knew Zimmerman was armed did he? So he was just being followed, or had the perception of being followed. The confrontation was initiated when Trayvon was stopped yes?

Me walking behind you is not confrontation, you thinking I'm walking behind you with intent to do harm is not confrontation that's just your opinion. Etc, etc. counter argument, etc.

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 01:06 PM

Backlash, come on man. We were almost done doing a thing here. You couldn't have waited another minute?

I know right, rude.

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 01:07 PM

But in an aggressive, masculine way. Is that brave? Brave is a strong word, perhaps the word is valiant.

If you're running away in an aggressive manor does that make you the aggressor? If yes then your flight or fight response is no longer even on the table. Clearly you're initiating a conflict by running.

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 01:38 PM

From a legal stand point it is. In a self-defense claim you do not have to meet force with "like" force.

edit: I'm not saying it is right, but fair and legal are seldom the same.

I don't know if anyone addressed this already, but this is not even close to being true. You absolutely do have that standard. If someone punches you, you MAY NOT shoot them. It's an imperfect defense -- likely voluntary manslaughter.

Suppa Hobbit Mage

03-26-2012, 01:46 PM

If you're running away in an aggressive manor does that make you the aggressor? If yes then your flight or fight response is no longer even on the table. Clearly you're initiating a conflict by running.

If you can run away in a manor I think that's pretty aggressive because you are rich.

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 01:46 PM

I don't know if anyone addressed this already, but this is not even close to being true. You absolutely do have that standard. If someone punches you, you MAY NOT shoot them.

So if a 300 pound man of muscle is kicking the shit out of a 100 pound weakling the 100 pound guy can't under any circumstances (legally speaking) use a gun?

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 01:48 PM

If you can run away in a manor I think that's pretty aggressive because you are rich.

Fuck and touche.

Gelston

03-26-2012, 01:51 PM

So if a 300 pound man of muscle is kicking the shit out of a 100 pound weakling the 100 pound guy can't under any circumstances (legally speaking) use a gun?

If you fear for your life and feel that by not using it you might be killed or grievously injured, I'd think that would make a pretty good defense for the use of a firearm.

Parkbandit

03-26-2012, 02:01 PM

It is my opinion that once Zimmerman, an armed man, started following Trayvon, an unarmed kid who was not doing anything illegal, is when Zimmerman initiated the confrontation that resulted in Zimmerman killing Trayvon. I believe that my opinion is based on the facts that we have and not on speculation.

So far no other FACTS have convinced me otherwise. The absence of information is not a fact and does not convince me otherwise. In fact, I would say that trying to consider the absence of information in an effort to base a decision is exactly what speculation is.

Here is the part of your opinion that is actually based upon facts... the rest is conjecture:

"It is my opinion that once Zimmerman, an armed man, started following Trayvon, an unarmed kid"

"resulted in Zimmerman killing Trayvon."

Parkbandit

03-26-2012, 02:04 PM

I don't know if anyone addressed this already, but this is not even close to being true. You absolutely do have that standard. If someone punches you, you MAY NOT shoot them. It's an imperfect defense -- likely voluntary manslaughter.

It is your belief that no one could possibly kill you with their bare hands?

It is your belief that you are not afraid for your life if someone is slamming your head repeatedly with their closed fists?

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 02:13 PM

Back

03-26-2012, 02:14 PM

Here is the part of your opinion that is actually based upon facts... the rest is conjecture:

"It is my opinion that once Zimmerman, an armed man, started following Trayvon, an unarmed kid"

"resulted in Zimmerman killing Trayvon."

Currently there are no facts to support that Trayvon was doing anything illegal when Zimmerman started following him.

Drew

03-26-2012, 02:17 PM

Currently there are no facts to support that Trayvon was doing anything illegal when Zimmerman started following him.

Currently there are no facts to support that Zimmerman was doing anything illegal when he started following Trayvon.

Parkbandit

03-26-2012, 02:24 PM

Jonty

03-26-2012, 02:35 PM

Currently there are no facts to support that Zimmerman was doing anything illegal when he started following Trayvon.

But we do have the fact that he did so despite what the 911 operator told him. Not illegal, but it was the wrong move on his part, and caused this whole situation to occur.

Parkbandit

03-26-2012, 02:36 PM

But we do have the fact that he did so despite what the 911 operator told him.

I agree, but that's not illegal either.

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 02:47 PM

No one is arguing in support of someone punching you is a clear cut green light to shoot them.

This is what Drunken Durfin was responding to:

Self defense to fists also isn't shooting somebody.

I just wanted to be clear that Warriorbird is right, and that there is, in fact, a requirement that you can't escalate the amount of force used and still be protected under self-defense.

Of course, if your life is threatened (compared to, say, being bruised or otherwise non-life-threateningly injured), any lethal force is permitted; but, you're still going to be held to a strict standard of whether someone was actually about to be killed.

Edited to add: This includes holding back from killing someone if you can stop them otherwise. A child has the excuse that he needs a weapon to stop an adult from attacking him. A large man, for instance, does not have the excuse that he needs a weapon to stop a woman who is punching him. The same large man also doesn't have an excuse if he uses a weapon to kill a medium-sized man attacking a child, even if the child would need a weapon.

Menos

03-26-2012, 02:56 PM

Androidpk

03-26-2012, 02:58 PM

If that and the other circumstances they are reporting turn out to be a factual account, then he is almost surely going to be covered by the self defense laws.

Who cares about evidence, CNN says 75% of Americans want Zimmerman arrested!!!111

Menos

03-26-2012, 03:06 PM

Oh, and he was apparently suspended for an "empty weed bag" under the zero tolerance policy, so it was a non violent bs infraction.

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 03:43 PM

On my iPhone, so no link. But, the Orlando sentinel is reporting that zimmerman's story was that he was punched in the face and then had his head slammed into the sidewalk several times. They also say he had a broken nose and injuries to the back of his head. If that and the other circumstances they are reporting turn out to be a factual account, then he is almost surely going to be covered by the self defense laws.

Sounds like something that an in-shape (and in their prime) football player can do with sufficient adrenaline (Trayvon was nervous about being followed and that Zimmerman got out of his car) ... possibly did a bull-rush that knocked Zimmerman onto the ground? Followed by wrestling during which Zimmerman gets the bloodied head, followed by Zimmerman shooting Travyon after Trayvon reaches for Zimmerman's gun (http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-shooter-teenager-gun/story?id=16000239#.T3Cymtnp7fU).

Oh, and he was apparently suspended for an "empty weed bag" under the zero tolerance policy, so it was a non violent bs infraction.

This is in regard to Trayvon right? To explain the suspension? (this is mentioned in the above linked article too)

.

Anyhow, this was a situation of mutual (non-overt) escalation:

1. Trayvon was dressed in a hoodie/etc walking nearby/to home alone at dark (nothing wrong in itself, but we are all familiar with how much 1st impressions derive from appearances, right?)

2. Zimmerman, overzealous about neighborhood watch, spots and starts following Trayvon

3. Trayvon, made nervous/threatened by having Zimmerman in his car following him, put on his hoodie (which likely made suspicious Zimmerman even more suspicious due to masking of appearance)

4. Zimmerman gets out of his car to check what street is his on, still on the phone with dispatcher.

5. Trayvon, already on guard because Zimmerman has been following him, and upset that Zimmerman is being accusatory (when do teenagers *not* get indignant?) with questions of "who are you, why are you here?" ... soon, both parties are making hostile verbal remarks to each other

(fully into the speculative zone now)

6. Pisst Trayvon thinks Zimmerman is hostile (has phone to ear and likely was approaching Trayvon after getting out of his car) decides to defend himself (being a football player) by rushing and knocking down Zimmerman and then could dash on home

Additional postulation for #6, Zimmerman may have made it known that he had a gun, so Trayvon, being unarmed, figured to defend himself against a possible shooting by charging Zimmerman to knock the gun away before running

7. Zimmerman responds aggressively in a physical manner as well as Trayvon charges him (assuming 6 is the situation) and they end up wrestling on the ground. This is when the gun mentioned earlier is clearly in play, as they both wrestle to gain control of it

8. Zimmerman, fearing Trayvon would gain control of the gun and shoot him, ends up shooting Trayvon instead.

.

This seems like a *plausible* sequence of events, pieced together by the 'facts' that we are aware of.

Both individuals were doing nothing illegal themselves, but both likely assumed the worst intentions of the other, and that combined with it being dark and secluded, furthered along a self-reinforcing cascade of events into conflict that ultimately ended in tragedy.

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 04:20 PM

There are security cameras all over where I live, I can't move 3 feet without being on camera, why the hell isn't there footage of this? Every murder in this city for the past 15 years has been on camera if it didn't occur in a private dwelling house.

Do we know what position this 140 pound football player played? I mean, I find it hard to believe this kid thought rushing the guy who outweighed him by 100 pounds was a good idea. I'm still caught up on the idea that he asked "Why are you following me?" which doesn't suggest someone who is about to "bull rush" a much bigger guy.

Even if he did, I don't think it was unjustified, and I DO think that 1) Zimmerman had no right to try and detain the kid, even if it was as simple as saying "What're you doing here?", 2) he followed the kid against the dispatcher's warning to do so. The kid retreated, the police were on the way, it was up to him to NOT follow him.

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 04:24 PM

Do we know what position this 140 pound football player played? I mean, I find it hard to believe this kid thought rushing the guy who outweighed him by 100 pounds was a good idea. I'm still caught up on the idea that he asked "Why are you following me?" which doesn't suggest someone who is about to "bull rush" a much bigger guy.

What would you do, if you feel you could *not* get away?

And this guy, with a phone to his ear, getting out of his car, is planning something seriously bad for you.

People can do some impressive feats when they're adrenaline-charged.

Suppa Hobbit Mage

03-26-2012, 04:38 PM

The whole thing is just sad, regardless of who's "side" you are on. Unless there is some concrete proof (video, witness, evidence...) it won't be resolved easily or to everyones satisfaction, and with all the media attention from Sharpton and Jackson (and their opposite media whores) it'll be hard for this not to create further tension.

My thoughts are the Zimmerman guy shouldn't have pursued him, and let the police do their job. The kid shouldn't have done anything to Zimmerman (if the accounts are true) when he asked him what he was doing there.

Without any more details I can't say if Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter or not. Right now the only thing I think about him is he's reckless and dangerous - probably dumb as well.

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 04:39 PM

If Trayvon could not get away from Zimmerman, and he himself was justified in fighting the "detainment" by Zimmerman, Zimmerman's claim of self-defense fails.

Basically, you can't claim self-defense in an altercation you precipitated.

The only way Zimmerman can claim self-defense is if:
1) Trayvon was the instigator
2) Zimmerman and Trayvon got into a physical altercation
3) Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury (which, legally, usually refers to life-changing disabilities like paralysis or loss of limb).
4) Zimmerman shoots the kid in self-defense.

You CANNOT instigate the altercation and then use self-defense as a defense. Furthermore, self-defense is an AFFIRMATIVE defense, which means the burden of proof is on Zimmerman to prove he was defending himself. Eyewitnesses (who are subject to credibility and cross-examination) for the most part, say otherwise. One eyewitness says Trayvon had the better of the fight, but did not witness the outset of the fight and who instigated it. The only witness who has some sort of insight is the girlfriend, who says she heard Trayvon ask Zimmerman "What are you following me for?" and then Zimmerman asked "What are you doing here?" At this point, Zimmerman has illegally detained Trayvon, and instigated the altercation. Even if the girlfriend's impressions of who pushed who whom are inaccurate, the testimony about the questions is enough to show Zimmerman instigated the altercation.

Rinualdo

03-26-2012, 04:43 PM

Updated at 2:45 p.m. ET: The man who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, setting off a nationwide outpouring of anger, told police that Martin knocked him down with a single punch and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times — an account that police said witnesses have corroborated, according to The Orlando Sentinel... (http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/26/10868250-police-report-details-alleged-attack-on-zimmerman).

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 04:50 PM

Not to harp on a theme, but Rinualdo's quote = possible when Adrenaline-charged

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 04:53 PM

Zimmerman is an idiot plain and simple. Is it murder? I'm not sure but it's fucking horrid.

Drew

03-26-2012, 04:54 PM

You CANNOT instigate the altercation and then use self-defense as a defense. Furthermore, self-defense is an AFFIRMATIVE defense, which means the burden of proof is on Zimmerman to prove he was defending himself.

I believe in Florida this is not true. LEOs can't arrest you for using deadly force unless they have PC to believe the force was used unlawfully (IE outside of the stand purview of the stand your ground law).

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 04:56 PM

I would be very surprised to hear that someone could not be arrested, or even charged, for killing in any circumstance.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 04:56 PM

Zimmerman is an idiot plain and simple. Is it murder? I'm not sure but it's fucking horrid.

Realistically my gut feeling says properly it'd be some variety of manslaughter. Will we get that? I doubt it.

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 04:57 PM

crb

03-26-2012, 04:57 PM

I never said, "if someone is going to kill you, you can't defend yourself." I said that the act of someone punching you does not give you the legal right to kill them (and I implicitly meant "shoot to kill"). I can't address every hypothetical, but I can tell you the law.
In which state? Because you know each state is different.

In Texas you can shoot someone who is running away from you if they're stealing your property.

Most places there is no cut and dry rule like you say "if you get hit by a fist, you may not shoot." Obviously being hit by Bob's little girl arms is way different than if Kimbo Slice was trying to clobber you, and not just because he is black and so more scary.

Most places the rule is that "would a reasonable person believe they are in danger" and it isn't even life threatening danger, it is usually serious bodily harm, and it isn't for you either, but for others as well.

For instance, someone breaks into my house, I'm downstairs, they're going up stairs, where my kids are asleep. I can shoot him in the back on the stairwell all day long.

On the otherhand, I remember from my CCW class something about not going out to pick a fight if you're carrying. Of course, I'm not in Florida, even state is different. If you are carrying you have the responsibility of being the bigger man and walking away... but Florida has that stand your ground law so...

AnticorRifling

03-26-2012, 04:57 PM

I would be very surprised to hear that someone could not be arrested, or even charged, for killing in any circumstance.

I could see detained, but not formally arrested or charged in a few scenarios.

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 05:04 PM

In Texas you can shoot someone who is running away from you if they're stealing your property.

That isn't the case here.

Most places there is no cut and dry rule like you say "if you get hit by a fist, you may not shoot." Obviously being hit by Bob's little girl arms is way different than if Kimbo Slice was trying to clobber you, and not just because he is black and so more scary.

Well, no, in most places there is a cut and dry rule. The rule applies to the force used, though. My little girl arms aren't very forceful, you're right, and therefore you can't kill me for trying to hit you with them.

For instance, someone breaks into my house, I'm downstairs, they're going up stairs, where my kids are asleep. I can shoot him in the back on the stairwell all day long.

That's not relevant here, and I'm almost positive that it's untrue in a lot of states.

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 05:05 PM

Realistically my gut feeling says properly it'd be some variety of manslaughter. Will we get that? I doubt it.

For the 'crime' of following Trayvon?

(particularly if the situation is fully accurate about Trayvon instigating actual physical contact with the face-punch knockdown and subsequent head-slamming onto cement)

I do have to wonder how much press this would be getting if it was a white on white, or black on black, or hispanic on hispanic 'crime'. I'd think the byline would be more-so "tragic fatal shooting by overzealous neighborhood activist in ill-advised confrontation".

Suppa Hobbit Mage

03-26-2012, 05:07 PM

I thought this was brown on black violence?

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 05:08 PM

For the 'crime' of following Trayvon?

(particularly if the situation is fully accurate about Trayvon instigating actual physical contact with the face-punch knockdown and subsequent head-slamming onto cement)

I do have to wonder how much press this would be getting if it was a white on white, or black on black, or hispanic on hispanic 'crime'. I'd think the byline would be more-so "tragic fatal shooting by overzealous neighborhood activist in ill-advised confrontation".

Curiously enough, killing a guy for punching you isn't super acceptable. Zimmerman would be going down for it in nearly all those other situations too.

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 05:09 PM

I thought this was brown on black violence?

Except Zimmerman is apparently being considered white, as far as the "unjustified white violence against poor innocent black kid, yet again" media hysteria has been going.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 05:10 PM

Except Zimmerman is apparently being considered white, as far as the "unjustified white violence against poor innocent black kid, yet again" media hysteria has been going.

Media hysteria usually equals ZOMG white girl! Unless, of course, you're a "post racial" white Republican who went to the University of Michigan.

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 05:10 PM

Curiously enough, killing a guy for punching you isn't super acceptable. Zimmerman would be going down for it in nearly all those other situations too.

You apparently skipped over the part of Zimmerman's head being forcibly slammed against the cement, causing bleeding.

Last I knew, serious head injuries can be fatal...

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 05:12 PM

You apparently skipped over the part of Zimmerman's head being forcibly slammed against the cement, causing bleeding.

Last I knew, serious head injuries can be fatal...

So what do you do when you discover some guy following you with a gun in the dark?

Atlanteax

03-26-2012, 05:16 PM

So what do you do when you discover some guy following you with a gun in the dark?

Okay, so, *clearly* Zimmerman is guilty, at the minimum, of manslaughter, as he ought to have known it would had ultimately ended badly no matter what?

This would be your rationale?

crb

03-26-2012, 05:18 PM

So what do you do when you discover some guy following you with a gun in the dark?
run.

Seriously though, run, anyone who has ever shot a handgun can tell you how hard it is to hit a target, running away from you, while you're running to keep up, etc.

Life isn't like The Walking Dead where every shot from a moving car headshots a zombie 20 yards away.

Nieninque

03-26-2012, 05:20 PM

For the 'crime' of following Trayvon?

For the crime of killing him?

America is fucked up.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 05:20 PM

Okay, so, *clearly* Zimmerman is guilty, at the minimum, of manslaughter, as he ought to have known it would had ultimately ended badly no matter what?

This would be your rationale?

He confronted him with a gun at night. How exactly are you visualizing this going well?

This is not Bernhard Goetz 2. It wasn't like he was breaking up a felony. He confronted him (in notably creepy fashion, especially with the 100 pounds of weight), got punched, then killed him.

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 05:20 PM

You are not allowed to provoke someone into attacking you, and then killing them under self-defense. You can't be simply defending yourself if you're responsible for the situation. The guy had a gun, felt entitled to do whatever the fuck he feels like because he's Community Watch Captain or whatever, obviously has some Warclaidhm tendencies in general, and all of that led to him chasing after Trayvon. He is, for those reasons, guilty of no less than manslaughter, yes.

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 05:26 PM

“They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid,” said Peaden, a Crestview Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. “He has no protection under my law.”

Peaden and Baxley say their law, at its heart, is a self-defense law. It says law-abiding people have no duty to retreat. Nowhere does it say that a person has a right to confront another. The law does say a law-abiding citizen can use deadly force if "if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

The 911 tapes strongly suggest Zimmerman overstepped his bounds, they say, when the Sanford neighborhood crime-watch captain said he was following Trayvon and appeared to ignore a police request to stay away.

“The guy lost his defense right then,” said Peaden. “When he said ‘I’m following him,’ he lost his defense.”

Miami Herald (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

Tgo01

03-26-2012, 05:27 PM

1) they heard "a small boy crying"
2) they heard the n-word used by someone.
3) they heard Zimmerman call for help
4) they heard a shot, which then (in one witness's words) stopped the crying
5) they saw someone in a red shirt being beaten up by someone else.

The third and fifth fact are the only ones in Zimmerman's favor, and they're context specific at that.

How is number one in either Zimmerman's or Martin's favor? I haven't heard a voice recording of either of them but I find it hard to believe someone could tell the difference between a 6'3 17 year old crying and a 5'9 28 year old crying. The fact that the 'witness' says it was a 'small boy crying' seems to indicate he/she is playing into the media frenzy of trying to portray Martin as a 12 year old kid.

How is number two in either of their favor either? Maybe they were both upset and hurling racial insults at each other?

And lastly how does number four play against Zimmerman? Maybe Zimmerman was crying because he was getting his face smashed in and after the gunshot his face stopped getting smashed in?

But I will also agree with you that three and five don't necessarily help Zimmerman either.

Basically, you can't claim self-defense in an altercation you precipitated.

Are you sure? Let's just say for a minute Zimmerman did attack Martin first, Martin obviously has the right to defend himself. If Martin gains the upper hand in the fight and starts bashing Zimmerman's head against concrete can Zimmerman not legally use lethal force at that point to preserve his own life or prevent risk of serious injury?

So basically anytime someone starts a fight with you you get a free pass to kill that person if you are able to?

What I don't understand about the "stand your ground" law is that it only applies to your own property but people seem to think it applies here.

Actually I think Florida's "stand your ground" law applies to anyone who is not engaged in illegal activity and is in any place they have a right to be.

Drew

03-26-2012, 05:29 PM

The force is de facto unlawful unless he was protecting his own home. What I don't understand about the "stand your ground" law is that it only applies to your own property but people seem to think it applies here. This is a case of homicide w/ a DW, and it's an affirmative defense to say "self-defense" IE you have to prove it, IE cops should have arrested him til he could prove it.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013 (this is the Castle doctrine part of the law).

....

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.

(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).

I added the words in italics and bolded the law.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 05:34 PM

There's an interesting question there. If Zimmerman brandished the gun at Trayvon, Trayvon's action clearly wasn't "unlawful."

Back

03-26-2012, 05:37 PM

One factor I would like to know is if Zimmerman had his gun visible. And did he let Trayvon know he had a loaded gun?

Ryvicke

03-26-2012, 05:37 PM

So basically anytime someone starts a fight with you you get a free pass to kill that person if you are able to?

I think this has been the most-quoted issue with SYG--the suspicion is that the person still alive is the one that initiated the confrontation and sees the confrontation as "life or death" specifically because they know they have a gun. The dead person doesn't have much to say about it.

You may have read Zimmerman being quoted that he knew "one of them was going to die that night." That's strikes me as a not completely normal mindset.

Drew

03-26-2012, 05:37 PM

There's an interesting question there. If Zimmerman brandished the gun at Trayvon, Trayvon's action clearly wasn't "unlawful."

Except under these circumstances I believe:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Warriorbird

03-26-2012, 05:41 PM

Except under these circumstances I believe:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Even more interesting. Did Zimmerman initially provoke it?

Bobmuhthol

03-26-2012, 05:43 PM

Are you sure? Let's just say for a minute Zimmerman did attack Martin first, Martin obviously has the right to defend himself. If Martin gains the upper hand in the fight and starts bashing Zimmerman's head against concrete can Zimmerman not legally use lethal force at that point to preserve his own life or prevent risk of serious injury?

So basically anytime someone starts a fight with you you get a free pass to kill that person if you are able to?

Zimmerman attacks Martin -- no gun. Martin defends himself, within reason, which basically means he punches Zimmerman in the face. Martin is now attempting to kill Zimmerman. Martin has escalated force, and is responsible for his actions. Zimmerman kills Martin. Martin is dead, so whatever. Zimmerman has not committed murder; he has committed manslaughter, because he attacked Martin, which he shouldn't have done in the first place.

Martin, if he killed Zimmerman, would have the same trouble claiming innocence since Zimmerman was not trying to kill him. So basically, no, you don't get a free pass to kill anyone who attacks you.

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 05:47 PM

TheEschaton

03-26-2012, 05:52 PM

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

If that's the law in Florida, then Zimmerman will walk. That, in combination with SYG, is a shitty law though. It basically says you can provoke a fight, and if the guy fights back hard enough, you can kill him.

Ryvicke

03-26-2012, 05:53 PM

Even more interesting. Did Zimmerman initially provoke it?

Zimmerman attacks Martin -- no gun. Martin defends himself, within reason, which basically means he punches Zimmerman in the face. Martin is now attempting to kill Zimmerman. Martin has escalated force, and is responsible for his actions. Zimmerman kills Martin. Martin is dead, so whatever. Zimmerman has not committed murder; he has committed manslaughter, because he attacked Martin, which he shouldn't have done in the first place.

Martin, if he killed Zimmerman, would have the same trouble claiming innocence since Zimmerman was not trying to kill him. So basically, no, you don't get a free pass to kill anyone who attacks you.

Martin's responsibility would have been to use reasonable force against any force Zimmerman showed. If Zimmerman stopped fighting, Martin's responsibility would have been to stop fighting as well. He doesn't have a "free pass" to kill him. It still means that you don't get to claim self-defense for an altercation you instigated.

This is getting painful.

You guys know that doing 75 more TRUECRIME PC re-enactments of those 3 minutes isn't ever going to help anyone know what actually happened. There will never be enough evidence to convict. If the cops do the least amount of police work possible and bring the dude in for 1 day while they gather evidence and then let him go cause there is none the entire country wouldn't have gone ass-up about this.