New witness saw Trayvon attack Zimmerman

[Tgo01]

Zimmerman attacks Martin -- no gun. Martin defends himself, within reason, which basically means he punches Zimmerman in the face. Martin is now attempting to kill Zimmerman. Martin has escalated force, and is responsible for his actions. Zimmerman kills Martin. Martin is dead, so whatever. Zimmerman has not committed murder; he has committed manslaughter, because he attacked Martin, which he shouldn't have done in the first place.

This just doesn't seem right. Obviously starting a fight with someone puts you in the wrong but does it give that person the right to kill you? I think most reasonable people would say no. Okay so you start a fight (you're in the wrong but don't deserve to be killed) then the other person attempts to kill you, your only choice at that point is to either let them kill you or kill that person and spend 15-20 years in jail? Seems like a shitty situation.


Martin's responsibility would have been to use reasonable force against any force Zimmerman showed. If Zimmerman stopped fighting, Martin's responsibility would have been to stop fighting as well. He doesn't have a "free pass" to kill him. It still means that you don't get to claim self-defense for an altercation you instigated.

What if Martin DIDN'T stop fighting if Zimmerman stopped? You're basically saying that once you start a fight with someone you cannot legally protect yourself from death or serious harm with deadly force. If that's the law then that's the law but again it sounds rather shitty.

[Bobmuhthol]

Obviously starting a fight with someone puts you in the wrong but does it give that person the right to kill you?

No, it doesn't. But they're dead now, because you killed them, so they can't be charged. It doesn't mean you're innocent because they escalated. You attacked them first.


Okay so you start a fight (you're in the wrong but don't deserve to be killed) then the other person attempts to kill you, your only choice at that point is to either let them kill you or kill that person and spend 15-20 years in jail? Seems like a shitty situation.

You don't get 15-20 years for involuntary manslaughter.


You're basically saying that once you start a fight with someone you cannot legally protect yourself from death or serious harm with deadly force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperfect_self-defense

[Bobmuhthol]

This is getting painful.

You guys know that doing 75 more TRUECRIME PC re-enactments of those 3 minutes isn't ever going to help anyone know what actually happened. There will never be enough evidence to convict. If the cops do the least amount of police work possible and bring the dude in for 1 day while they gather evidence and then let him go cause there is none the entire country wouldn't have gone ass-up about this.

I don't care what happened. TheE and I were responding to theoretical examples meant to demonstrate why the law sucks even though it doesn't.

[Tgo01]

You don't get 15-20 years for involuntary manslaughter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

In states such as Florida, manslaughter is not broken down this way. In Florida, manslaughter, defined as: The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder . . . is a second degree felony punishable by up to 15 years in state prison regardless of whether the act may have been intentional or not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperfect_self-defense

My understanding of "imperfect self-defense" is if someone believes lethal force was necessary but the belief itself is deemed to be wrong. But if we're assuming lethal force was justified here, even after Zimmerman started the fight, I don't think this would fall under an "imperfect self-defense."

[Latrinsorm]

How is number two in either of their favor either? Maybe they were both upset and hurling racial insults at each other?I have been called the n-word by people in certain charged situations, and I'm not even Hispanic white, I'm white white white white. How do you like that case law, Eschaton?

[Androidpk]

If a white person calls a black person a nigger and then kills him it's a race crime. Is it still a race crime if a black person says and does the same thing to another black man?

[Bobmuhthol]

My understanding of "imperfect self-defense" is if someone believes lethal force was necessary but the belief itself is deemed to be wrong. But if we're assuming lethal force was justified here, even after Zimmerman started the fight, I don't think this would fall under an "imperfect self-defense."

Dealing with different states is certainly a pain in the ass.


Michigan also recognizes imperfect self-defense as a qualified defense that can mitigate second-degree murder to voluntary manslaughter. However, the doctrine can only be used where the defendant would have had a right to self-defense but for the fact that the defendant was the initial aggressor.

[Jarvan]

If a white person calls a black person a nigger and then kills him it's a race crime. Is it still a race crime if a black person says and does the same thing to another black man?

Nope. It's also not a race crime if a Black person calls a white person cracker, then shoots them. It's only a race crime if it's against a Minority.

I can't honestly think of the last time I have seen a race crime brought against a black person.

[Parkbandit]

He confronted him with a gun at night. How exactly are you visualizing this going well?

This is not Bernhard Goetz 2. It wasn't like he was breaking up a felony. He confronted him (in notably creepy fashion, especially with the 100 pounds of weight), got punched, then killed him.

According to the recently released Zimmerman account, this is not even close to what happened.

[Parkbandit]

Miami Herald (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2012/03/stand-your-ground-fathers-trayvon-martins-shooter-should-likely-be-arrested-doesnt-deserve-immunity.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

This was dated 3/20/12.. new information has been released since then. I was under the same impression until I read the events described by Zimmerman to the police.


SANFORD --
Long unanswered questions into what George Zimmerman claims happened the night he shot Trayvon Martin began to come into focus Monday.

According to a Sanford Police employee, Zimmerman told officers Trayvon beat him and he was forced to shoot him in self-defense. Zimmerman has not been arrested and has not been charged with any crime in relation to the Travon Martin shooting.

After talking with a 911 dispatcher, Zimmerman said he was walking back to his SUV after losing sight of Martin after he got out of his vehicle and went to approach the boy.

The employee said Zimmerman told detectives Martin approached him from behind, they spoke for a moment and Martin punched him in the face.

Zimmerman said Martin began to beat him, suffering a bloody nose and lacerations to the back of his head.

According to the employee, Zimmerman told officers he then shot the 17-year-old in his self-defense, as he was being beaten.

The family of Martin claims Zimmerman confronted Martin and initiated an altercation, before shooting the boy.

A friend who said she was on the phone with Martin at the time of the altercation said the phone went silent after Martin told her he was being followed.

“He said this man was watching him. So, he put his hoodie on…”

She then went on to say Martin was cornered.

“Trayvon said ‘what are you following me for?’ The man said ‘what [are] you doing around here.’” The girl then said that’s when things took a turn.

“Then somebody pushed Trayvon cause the headset just fell.” She then said the phone line went dead. Soon after, Zimmerman killed Trayvon.
Zimmerman side of story leaked by police employee

The information released Monday was leaked to the media from by the Sanford Police employee.

“We do not condone these unauthorized leaks of information,” Sanford City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. said.

“Acting Chief Scott will be doing an internal investigation within the Sanford Police Department, as this type of action compromises the integrity of the law enforcement agency which has pledged to uphold the law”.

Bonaparte stated that disciplinary action, including possible termination, will be taken against anyone found to have leaked information from the department.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/3/26/trayvon_martin_leake/

[Back]

http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/george-zimmerman-s-911-call-transcribed


George Zimmerman's 911 call transcribed




SANFORD, Florida (Isabelle Zehnder reporting) -- Moments before 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed by 28-year-old self-proclaimed neighborhood watch captain, George Zimmerman, Zimmerman made a call to 911 which is transcribed below.

The 911 call was one of Zimmerman's nearly 50 calls in the past year wherein he reported a suspicious black male in his neighborhood. There have been reports of numerous burglaries in the neighborhood.

Trayvon Martin's father, Tracy Martin, also lives in the gated Sanford, Florida neighborhood where his son was shot and killed while walking home from a local convenience store.

Zimmerman:
We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.
This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]

911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:
He looks black.

911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]

911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]

911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]

911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?

Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.

911 dispatcher:
Late teens?

Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]

911 dispatcher:
Let me know if he does anything, OK?

Zimmerman:
OK.

911 dispatcher:
We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman:
OK.
These assholes. They always get away.
When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]

911 dispatcher:
OK, so it’s on the left hand side of the clubhouse?

Zimmerman:
Yeah. You go in straight through the entrance and then you would go left. You go straight in, don’t turn and make a left.
He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:
He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:
Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:
OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:
The back entrance.
[It sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing coons’ at 2:22]

NOTE:

[Listen here (http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/did-trayvon-martins-shooter-use-slur-in-911-tapes/) at 1:17 for CNN's edited frame]
[Read CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin's (http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/anderson-cooper-did-george-zimmerman-use-a-racial-slur-why-it-s-important) explanation of why the use of a racial slur is critical in this case.]911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:
George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:
Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:
What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

Zimmerman:
407-435-2400

911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman:
Yeah.

911 dispatcher:
Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman:
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?

Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.

911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?

Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]

Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …

Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.

Zimmerman:
My number … you’ve got it?

911 dispatcher:
Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400?

Zimmerman:
Yeah, you got it.

911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]

Zimmerman:
Thanks.

911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.

Call ends 4:07

Above was a transcription of Zimmerman's call to 911 moments before he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. It was transcribed to the best of the transcriber's abilities, and is not meant to replace any official transcript of the call.

You can listen to the call here (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-grio/46771333/#46782311) from 0:01 to 4:07 (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/the-grio/46771333/#46782311).

On February 26, 2012, Trayvon Martin, 17, was walking home from a convenience store after purchasing an Arizona iced tea and Skittles. Moments later he was lying dead on the ground, shot to death by volunteer neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman, 28.


Continue reading on Examiner.com George Zimmerman's 911 call transcribed - National unsolved cases | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/george-zimmerman-s-911-call-transcribed#ixzz1qGXYnoCW) http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/george-zimmerman-s-911-call-transcribed#ixzz1qGXYnoCW

[Parkbandit]

I don't hear "f-ing coons", I hear "F-ing punks". It's not even close to "coons" IMO.

[Tgo01]

I'm not sure how they think that 911 call proves Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense. Twice he says Martin was coming towards him and towards the end of the call Zimmerman says he has no idea where Martin is. That sure sounds like a different story we've been told that Zimmerman was tracking Martin down like some kind of wild animal.

[Jarvan]

I have to agree, I hear f-ing punks. the Unks of punks sounds very clear. Sorry Back.

[Back]

I'm not sure how they think that 911 call proves Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense. Twice he says Martin was coming towards him and towards the end of the call Zimmerman says he has no idea where Martin is. That sure sounds like a different story we've been told that Zimmerman was tracking Martin down like some kind of wild animal.

I don't believe anyone has claimed Zimmerman was tracking him down like some kind of wild animal.

Zimmerman says Trayvon is coming towards him while Zimmerman is in his truck. Then he says Trayvon is running. Seems as if Zimmerman could not keep up. Nothing at all suggests Trayvon attacked Zimmerman in that 911 call.

[Back]

I have to agree, I hear f-ing punks. the Unks of punks sounds very clear. Sorry Back.

Don't apologize to me. I am not the one who said it nor did I say I heard it, and something else I did not tell anyone to believe thats what he said.

[Androidpk]

I don't hear "f-ing coons", I hear "F-ing punks". It's not even close to "coons" IMO.

It sounds closer to punks than coons IMO.

[Tgo01]

I don't believe anyone has claimed Zimmerman was tracking him down like some kind of wild animal.



Zimmerman FOLLOWS Treyvon.
Police operator says "We don't need you to do that".
Zimmerman continues to follow Treyvon.


After all, Trayvon did nothing wrong and was being pursued by a stranger with a gun.


would not Tayvon be the one protected under the Hold your Ground law since Tayvon was innocent and a stranger was following him with a loaded weapon?


Does Martin have a right to attack a man who's chasing him for no reason?


How about if you were a teenage boy on foot and an adult man was following you in a truck with no one else around?


an armed person stalking an unarmed person who wasn't doing anything wrong

I got bored by page 16 but I think I've made my point.


Zimmerman says Trayvon is coming towards him while Zimmerman is in his truck. Then he says Trayvon is running. Seems as if Zimmerman could not keep up. Nothing at all suggests Trayvon attacked Zimmerman in that 911 call.

Nothing at all suggests Zimmerman attacked Martin in that 911 call either. In fact it helps Zimmerman more than anything. He says he has no idea where Martin is, he could have been lying but that seems unlikely since it seems he wanted police to find him to arrest him.

[Jonty]

I'm still listening to all the calls. (One of them is chilling. You can hear the screams... and then the gun shot.) But at the end of the call with Zimmerman, it definitely sounds like Zimmerman is leaving his car to track Martin down after he ran away.

[Back]

I got bored by page 16 but I think I've made my point.

The only point you've made is that you have really poor reading comprehension.


Nothing at all suggests Zimmerman attacked Martin in that 911 call either. In fact if it helps Zimmerman more than anything. He says he has no idea where Martin is, he could have been lying but that seems unlikely since it seems he wanted police to find him to arrest him.

Well, thats like your opinion, man.

[TheEschaton]

I mean, the guy says he was approached by Martin near his car, there was a "short verbal exchange", and then the kid punched him and started beating him up without Zimmerman doing anything. It all relies on how believable he is versus how believable the girlfriend is, especially if no recording of her phone call can be found.

Here's some questions:
1) Where did the final altercation take place? From my understanding, Zimmerman got out of his car, started following him on foot, and then got into an altercation with him. If he was nearer to his car, maybe that supports the idea that he was walking back to it. If the altercation was on someone's back porch in a row of townhouses, maybe that supports the GF's claim that Martin was cornered.
2) Is the girlfriend credible? We know nothing about her, and her testimony so far has been filtered through a lawyer, but it has been corroborated that she was on the phone with him as the event was unfolding. She said she told him to run away, and that he responded that he was walking fast, away from Zimmerman.
3) Is Zimmerman credible? The man has made 45 calls to 911 in the past 3 months about suspicious black males. He was a "Neighborhood Watch captain" except the national Neighborhood Watch organization has no record of his organization being recognized as NW.

People have been convicted on circumstantial evidence before - the problem with such evidence is that it boils down to "he said, she said."

[TheEschaton]

I'm still listening to all the calls. (One of them is chilling. You can hear the screams... and then the gun shot.) But at the end of the call with Zimmerman, it definitely sounds like Zimmerman is leaving his car to track Martin down after he ran away.

That one with the gunshot, you can hear someone screaming "No! No!" right before the gunshot as well.

[TheEschaton]

I know, I have listened. I don't believe Zimmerman, personally, I was just summing up what he said, which seems to me, to be unreliable. He's had a lawyer for the past month who's been feeding him what to say.

[Tgo01]

3) Is Zimmerman credible? The man has made 45 calls to 911 in the past 3 months about suspicious black males.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/trayvon-shooters-911-calls-potholes-piles-trash-black-men


At 9:02 p.m. on September 21, 2005, he called 911 about a stray dog on Skyline Drive. At 7:22 p.m. on St. Patrick's Day, 2005, he called 911 about a "pothole that is blocking [the] road." Then there was the pile of trash in the road near the local Kohl's, which he reported on Nov. 8, 2010. "[Complainant] states it appears recently dumped and appears to contain glass," the dispatcher dutifully reported.

A new 47-page document, quietly dumped online by the city of Sanford, details some of the phone calls George Zimmerman made to emergency dispatchers in Seminole County, Florida. Zimmerman, a self-styled neighborhood watch captain in his Orlando suburb, shot 17-year-old African American Trayvon Martin dead last month after reporting him to police as a suspicious person prowling the area. Zimmerman now claims Martin attacked him on the street, and he defended himself with deadly force.

But the newly released police calls paint Zimmerman as a man obsessed with law and order, with the minutiae of suburban life, and with black males.

Most of the calls seem to cover mundanities: Zimmerman reported a male driving with no headlights; a yellow speedbike popping wheelies on I-4; an aggressive white-and-brown pitbull; an Orange County municipal pickup cutting people off on the road; loud parties; open garage doors; and the antics of an ex-roommate, Josh, that he'd thrown out of their apartment. On September 9, 2009, he called to report another pothole, this one on Greenwood road, advising the dispatcher that "it is deep and can cause damage to vehicles."

He especially had concerns about kids in the neighborhood. On June 16, 2009, shortly after school had let out for the summer, he called to complain about six to eight youths playing basketball near his development's clubhouse, "jumping over the fence going into pool area and trashing the bathroom," according to the dispatcher's notes. This past January, he called to report five or six children, ages 4 to 11, playing in the neighborhood. The kids, he told a dispatcher, "play in the street and like to run out [in front of] cars."

But when there weren't kids or garbage to report, he'd spend his evenings looking for would-be burglars. At 2:38 a.m. on Nov. 4, 2006, he called about a late-model Red Toyota pickup "driving real slow looking at all the [vehicles] in the complex and blasting music from his [vehicle]." It's not clear if Zimmerman feared the driver was a car thief, though car thieves tend not to blast music through the neighborhood while practicing their craft.

But even more than cars, he was concerned about black men on foot in the neighborhood. In August 2011, he called to report a black male in a tank top and shorts acting suspicious near the development's back entrance. "[Complainant] believes [subject] is involved in recent S-21s"—break-ins—"in the neighborhood," the call log states. The suspect, Zimmerman told the dispatcher, fit a recent description given out by law enforcement officers.

Three days later, he called to report two black teens in the same area, for the same reason. "[Juveniles] are the subjs who have been [burglarizing] in this area," he told the dispatcher.

And last month, on Feb. 2, Zimmerman called to report a suspicious black man in a leather jacket near one of the development's units. The resident of that townhouse, Zimmerman told dispatch, was a white male. Police stopped by to investigate, but no one was there, and the residence was secure.

After that, there's one final call logged in the report. At 7:11 on February 26, Zimmerman called police to report a black male in a dark gray hoodie. A few minutes later, that male—Trayvon Martin—lay dead on the sidewalk.

That's 4 calls about black men in his neighborhood out of 47 calls. Not quite the same as 47 calls to 911 about suspicious looking black men.

[Latrinsorm]

Don't you watch Criminal Minds? It's called escalation, hello. Start with potholes, then dogs, then kids, then a guy that "fits a description", then a random guy, then chase a guy and shoot him.

[Menos]

The castle doctrine was expanded to cover anyplace you can lawfully be. The in the house part is that the assumption is you may be in reasonable fear for your life any time someone enters your home unlawfully (even to burglar). Outside of the home (and car) you must have more cause than just their presence.


The force is de facto unlawful unless he was protecting his own home. What I don't understand about the "stand your ground" law is that it only applies to your own property but people seem to think it applies here. This is a case of homicide w/ a DW, and it's an affirmative defense to say "self-defense" IE you have to prove it, IE cops should have arrested him til he could prove it.

In this very case, the two (Republican!) lawmakers who authored SYG say Zimmerman should be arrested, and that their law offers him no protection.

[Menos]

Someone still uses coons as an insult? What is this, the 1950s?


It sounds closer to punks than coons IMO.

[Menos]

That's 4 calls about black men in his neighborhood out of 47 calls. Not quite the same as 47 calls to 911 about suspicious looking black men.

47 calls is alot, but being a squeaky wheel is often the only way to get officials to do anything. Write a letter or call every day and eventually they will do the right thing just to shut you up. Heck, I have called the police (not 911, our local cop house) four times myself in the last year and I live in a very nice and very well policed area. Twice for stuck boats in the lake (mine and then someone else) and twice for people skulking about peeking into houses. One was a repo guy and the other was a criminal.

[Androidpk]

Probably too soon to ask this but.. who's going to play who in the movie?

[Menos]

Not sure, but if it is Carlos Mencia and Marlon Wayans in the starring roles, I will totally go see it.


Probably too soon to ask this but.. who's going to play who in the movie?

[Menos]

All normal precautions about reserving judgment apply, enough reports given have already proven bogus.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html


The Miami Gardens teen who has become a national symbol of racial injustice was suspended three times, and had a spotty school record that his family’s attorneys say is irrelevant to the facts that led up to his being gunned down on Feb. 26.

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family’s lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called “irrelevant” and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend.

[Androidpk]

Someone still uses coons as an insult? What is this, the 1950s?

That's what I was thinking. Strikes me as a really odd word of choice.

[WRoss]

That's what I was thinking. Strikes me as a really odd word of choice.

If you said that where I grew up, you might as well be saying the N word.

[Androidpk]

If you said that where I grew up, you might as well be saying the N word.

Where would that be? Somewhere rural I would imagine?

[WRoss]

Where would that be? Somewhere rural I would imagine?

Savannah, GA.

[Delias]

My job is so boring that I am eagerly awaiting the new evidence someone will present to solve this case to absolutely no one on the PC's satisfaction.

[4a6c1]

Because typically after a crime is committed an online delegation of armchair debaters investigates the crime. (ie. The Florida justice system is broken.)

[Jarvan]

Because typically after a crime is committed an online delegation of armchair debaters investigates the crime. (ie. The Florida justice system is broken.)

Well.. it IS the Florida Justice system, Armchair debaters is prob a better choice in some regards.

[Warriorbird]

That's what I was thinking. Strikes me as a really odd word of choice.

Just depends on where you're from.

[TheEschaton]

Coon isn't so out-of-date as you might think.

[Atlanteax]

Coon isn't so out-of-date as you might think.

"Coon" is my safe word =(

[Delias]

"Coon" is my safe word =(

Do you use dune coon as your safe word if you are in the desert?

[Warriorbird]

"Coon" is my safe word =(

Stay Michigan.

[Jarvan]

Since it's obvious he didn't say coon, I think debating if it's still used is moot.

[Warriorbird]

Since it's obvious he didn't say coon, I think debating if it's still used is moot.

Zimmerman's friend might disagree!

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/03/26/452308/zimmerman-friend-defends-racial-slur-coon-asses-used-proudly-in-parts-of-this-country/

[Jarvan]

Zimmerman's friend might disagree!

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2012/03/26/452308/zimmerman-friend-defends-racial-slur-coon-asses-used-proudly-in-parts-of-this-country/

So far, out of those that listened to the recording here, that has so far posted, only maybe Back heard coon.

Then again, I think Back would hear coon, or the N word even if the guy said criminals, or gangsters.

[Jonty]

I thought I heard coon at first. Then I listened again and kind of heard punk. I can't tell, but have no interest in repeatedly listening to it.

[Jonty]

Zimmerman's account (Leaked, neither confirmed nor denied by the PD):

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Toward the bottom under the bolded words, "One-minute gap", is what Zimmerman says happened.

I just heard on the news that Zimmerman says Martin tried to take his gun while they were on the ground. Not sure if that's true or not, but if it is, could you blame him?

[Androidpk]

I'm just glad that mob mentality does not define justice.

[Tgo01]

I thought I heard coon at first. Then I listened again and kind of heard punk. I can't tell, but have no interest in repeatedly listening to it.

Same with me. I heard coon then I read others here saying they heard punk and I heard punk after that. That's usually what happens though when someone tells you what you're supposed to hear.

Zimmerman's friend says he thinks Zimmerman said 'goon.'

[4a6c1]

I'm just glad that mob mentality does not define justice.

No George Zimmerman defines justice apparently. And judge and jury and executioner.

Now to be COMPLETELY off topic...Our manufacturing workers had a memorial for Treyvon Martin going on in front of the largest parking garage. I guess today is the one month anniversary since his death? Candles, hoodies, signs, arizona ice tea and skittles. Best of all the parent company to all our contracts approved it without the normal wait time. Considering this had to go all the way up the food chain and get a thumbs up from Palo Alto on down and I've never heard of anything like it....just wow.

[Warriorbird]

Same with me. I heard coon then I read others here saying they heard punk and I heard punk after that. That's usually what happens though when someone tells you what you're supposed to hear.

Zimmerman's friend says he thinks Zimmerman said 'goon.'

Then he also says "Coon is a perfectly okay thing to say! It's Cajun!" which is lulzy.

[Androidpk]

No George Zimmerman defines justice apparently. And judge and jury and executioner.


Thankfully that is also not the case.

[4a6c1]

You should let the Florida police know. And Zimmerman. And everyone who thinks Zimmerman shouldnt be arrested.

[Jarvan]

You should let the Florida police know. And Zimmerman. And everyone who thinks Zimmerman shouldnt be arrested.

Hate get technical, But under Florida Law, Since so far, the evidence the Police have shows it was self defense, they can NOT arrest or detain him.

Doing so would Violate the law.

Also, it's nice you believe in Innocent until PROVEN Guilty.


--- Note, this entire situation is screwed up and a Teen did NOT have to die. That does not mean that some of you people should practically be drooling to see Zimmerman's heart ripped out so you can be appeased. IF there was a crime, a Jury will decide ---

[WRoss]

This is going to wind its way though the courts before it is resolved. I'd imagine this goes for at least another 2 years.

[Back]

Well.. it IS the Florida Justice system, Armchair debaters is prob a better choice in some regards.

Apparently I need to spread more rep around before I can give you good rep for this one. ;P

[Back]

So far, out of those that listened to the recording here, that has so far posted, only maybe Back heard coon.

Then again, I think Back would hear coon, or the N word even if the guy said criminals, or gangsters.

You need to stop pushing your prejudices on me. My first thought is that it could have been any kind of ambient noise... inhaleing in the throat, rustling of material, bumping objects. I could hear both supposed phrases when played repeatedly. But that wasn't even the point of why I posted the transcript.

I was more interested in the timeline of events. I guess I have to spell out everything for everyone around here.

But since we're on the subject the word "punk" is also very derogatory in some circles.

[Menos]

Next newest blurb.


Meanwhile, the difference between the typical teenager Martin's family and supporters say he was and the way he presented himself on social media is the subject of increasing debate.

As Dan Linehan, a blogger at Wagist.com, pointed out, correspondence with Martin on Twitter before he died alludes to an incident with a bus driver. "Yu ain't tell me you swung on a bus driver," Martin's cousin wrote to him on Feb. 21.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html

I think this and the fact that he was found with a large screwdriver and women's wedding rings in his backpack at school give some credence to other possible descriptions of what happened. It is possible he really was doing something suspicious and was not just hunted down because he had a hoodie. As it is possible he attacked Zimmerman for either a perceived insult (The leaked account says Martin approached him from behind and said "Do you have a problem?" to which Zimmerman said "No." and he then replied "Now you do." and struck him) or specifically because he was doing said suspicious things.

I do not say this is what happened (although Zimmerman does), I only wish to point out that it is a reasonable possibility. Certainly at least as reasonable as Zimmerman stalking and killing an innocent child as some are saying it.

Edit to add the link from Wagist.com listed in the article above.
http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan-linehan/was-trayvon-martin-a-drug-dealer

[Back]

Next newest blurb.



http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html

How does this in any way justify the murder of an unarmed 17 year old kid, a free and private citizen, who was doing nothing illegal?

[Menos]

Additional photos with the one most media outlets went with for comparison.

http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/trayvon_martingeorge_zimmerman2012-wide1.jpg

http://a1.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/145/5939f09e17a14451963048fb8def00c9/l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/KgQfc.jpg

[Menos]

How does this in any way justify the murder of an unarmed 17 year old kid, a free and private citizen, who was doing nothing illegal?

Except if he punched someone in the face and started smashing his head into the sidewalk, he was most certainly doing something illegal. In Florida we call that attempted murder. My point is that there is just as much evidence for that (maybe even more) than for the vision of events you have. Are you unable to even entertain alternative possibilities?

Edit to flesh out the argument.

[Back]

Except if he punched someone in the face and started smashing his head into the sidewalk, he was most certainly doing something illegal. In Florida we call that attempted murder. My point is that there is just as much evidence for that (maybe even more) than for the vision of events you have. Are you unable to even entertain alternative possibilities?

Edit to flesh out the argument.

If something comes out that Trayvon had just climbed out of a house he had broken into, or left someone in a ditch, or something of that nature,. of course everything changes. But I find it despicable that anyone would try to demonize the dead person in this situation as if it justified ending his life.

A guy kills someone and is the victim? Come on man.

Here is a question. Is Zimmerman a benefit to the community or a menace to the community?

[Menos]

Trying to find out the truth is not demonizing anyone. If Trayvon attacked Zimmerman in the way he (with physical and witness support) says, then his actions in killing Martin were not only justified, they were just. I would say way more so than if Martin had just climbed out of a house he broke into because he would be acting to prevent a violent crime and not just in responding to a property crime.

Although always sad, not every time someone is killed is it inherently wrong. In fact, had I witnessed events exactly as described by Zimmerman (except he was unarmed and I was armed) I would have acted to exactly the same end. I would like to think that most people I consider friends would do that as well.

*Edit to clarify that I would have fired that shot.*

As to benefit or menace, again it all depends on what actually happened. If his story checks out, I would be happy to have him in my community (except maybe for the black panther promised militia to hunt him down part). If it turns out he killed Martin without just cause in some sort of fit of rage, I would rather he stay a bit farther away.


If something comes out that Trayvon had just climbed out of a house he had broken into, or left someone in a ditch, or something of that nature,. of course everything changes. But I find it despicable that anyone would try to demonize the dead person in this situation as if it justified ending his life.

A guy kills someone and is the victim? Come on man.

Here is a question. Is Zimmerman a benefit to the community or a menace to the community?

[WRoss]

How does this in any way justify the murder of an unarmed 17 year old kid, a free and private citizen, who was doing nothing illegal?

That is the entire question here. Who was doing the illegal activity? It isn't illegal to walk down the street. It isn't illegal to follow someone, either. It might be very well ill-advised, but it isn't illegal. We know there was a fight, but it is not obvious who started it. Did either of these men do something that legally warranted a response to physical violence?

All of these questions are exactly why this case will be forever polarized unless Zimmerman confesses or video evidence comes out. Right now, both sides are trying to run a smear campaign on the other person, which only complicates the issues further.

[Atlanteax]

More details (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/trayvon-martin-family_n_1381564.html)


But new details leaked to reporters this week by law enforcement officials in Sanford and school officials in Miami, where Martin lived with his mother, have clouded the All-American, good-boy image that Martin’s supporters have embraced.

For perhaps the first time the family has had to take a defensive posture. The family confirmed what had been until Monday just rumor. Trayvon had been on a 10-day suspension from school when he was killed last month. School officials found an empty baggie with marijuana residue in his book bag. He’d also been suspended before, the Miami Herald reported, for tardiness and for graffiti in school.

Law enforcement officials in Sanford also leaked internal reports to the Orlando Sentinel detailing what George Zimmerman allegedly told investigators about the night of the shooting. According to the official report, police say Zimmerman told them that Martin punched him first, the two fell to the ground and Martin then proceeded to bang Zimmerman’s head onto the sidewalk.

And a website has published what it claims are tweets Martin sent from his now-deleted Twitter account, many of which reveal crude language.

And as can be expected of publicity-seeking lawyers and Hot Air Sharpton:


The family's lawyers say the latest leaks are evidence of a "smear campaign" and "character assaults," and that the new information has nothing to do with the circumstances surrounding Martin’s killing.

The lawyers confirmed Martin’s latest suspension and the reasons behind it. The family’s advisors said they’d expected a counter-attack after more witnesses have come forward refuting Zimmerman's claims and public opinion had swayed in favor of the family. They said the police department has shown a pattern of dribbling out information that supports the self-defense claims given to them by Zimmerman.

“Once again, law enforcement is trying to demonize and blame the victim by releasing bits and pieces of their ongoing investigation that they feel will help build Zimmerman’s claims up,” Crump said during a press conference earlier in the day. "The most important thing in this whole tragedy is that George Zimmerman disobeyed the police dispatcher and went and stopped and pursued Trayvon Martin and initiated what proved to be a fatal encounter ... that is the only thing that is relevant.”

The longer the case draws out, the more law enforcement will try to portray Martin as a “junkie and a thief,” the Rev. Sharpton said during the same press conference.

(seems they're all for any smears on Zimmerman being a reckless racist)

[Ryvicke]

God I never would've guessed this thread would get this massive. Racists gotta race!

Sorry about "mob mentality" guys but the court of public opinion is never going to change on this thing. We know two facts that aren't in any question: dude did the opposite of what the police told him to and pursued, dude shot kid. Those two things will never change, so people will always be pissed.

Continue breathless discussion.

[Rinualdo]

SANFORD, Fla. – A slain Florida teenager and the neighborhood watch captain who shot and killed him exchanged words before the teen punched him in the nose and began banging the man’s head on the ground, according to the watch captain’s account of the confrontation that led to the shooting.

The Orlando Sentinel reported that George Zimmerman told police he lost 17-year-old Trayvon Martin in the neighborhood he regularly patrolled and was walking back to his vehicle last month when the youth approached him from behind.
The two exchanged words, Zimmerman said, and Martin then punched him, jumped on top of him and began banging his head on a sidewalk. Zimmerman said he began crying for help; Martin’s family thinks it was their son who was crying out. Witness accounts differ and 911 tapes in which the voices are heard are not clear.
A statement from Sanford police said the newspaper story was “consistent” with evidence turned over to prosecutors...
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20120327/PC16/120329869/1177.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I wonder why Treyvon's family is deleting all his twitter, facebook and myspace stuff.

Maybe no_limit_nigga as a twitter account paints him in a bad light. Or tweets suggesting he swung at a bus driver for something. Or posts asking for him to sell some "plant". Was he a florist? Or a police report of him possessing a burglary tool and a bagfull of rings someone "gave" him at the school.

Not saying he deserved to die, but it's adding color to everything. Someone alluded to the whole lacrosse team rape news story from awhile back... seems kind of similar as the "facts" unfold.

[Menos]

God I never would've guessed this thread would get this massive. Racists gotta race!

Sorry about "mob mentality" guys but the court of public opinion is never going to change on this thing. We know two facts that aren't in any question: dude did the opposite of what the police 911 call operator told him to and observed/followed pursued, dude shot athletic man kid. Those two things will never change, so people will always be pissed.

Continue breathless discussion.

Edits included. :tumble:

[Rinualdo]

God I never would've guessed this thread would get this massive. Racists gotta race!

Sorry about "mob mentality" guys but the court of public opinion is never going to change on this thing. We know two facts that aren't in any question: dude did the opposite of what the police told him to and pursued, dude shot kid. Those two things will never change, so people will always be pissed.

Continue breathless discussion.

Did he pursue? If you believe the posted article and apparent corroborated witness statement, dude was walking back to his card and kid pursued him.

Funny how facts that aren't in question don't appear so much as fact and do appear in question...

[Atlanteax]

I wonder why Treyvon's family is deleting all his twitter, facebook and myspace stuff.

Maybe no_limit_nigga as a twitter account paints him in a bad light. Or tweets suggesting he swung at a bus driver for something. Or posts asking for him to sell some "plant". Was he a florist? Or a police report of him possessing a burglary tool and a bagfull of rings someone "gave" him at the school.

Not saying he deserved to die, but it's adding color to everything. Someone alluded to the whole lacrosse team rape news story from awhile back... seems kind of similar as the "facts" unfold.

Maybe Trayvon thought Zimmerman was a rival drug dealer (turf infringment hostility with the 'why are you here??'), and/or was high on pot, when he 'jumped' Zimmerman.

We've gone from the 'police coverup' (no arrest of Zimmerman, no details of investigation) to the 'family coverup' (attempting to delete anything that could remotely be negative about Trayvon) ... in the meantime, it seems more plausible now that Zimmerman will not necessary be railroaded by public opinion as more details and 'facts' come out.

*WHAT IF* Zimmerman's only mistakes was persistently following Trayvon (until losing track and resigning to waiting for the police), and having a gun in possession (while not illegal and justifiably for self-defense, it lended to a shoot-or-be-killed if a struggle for the gun came into play, which apparently did).

[Jarvan]

Menos, Back doesn't care about facts or due process. It's His Opinion that this was cold blooded murder.

Hell, a tape could surface proving it was self defense, and Back, and People like Sharpton and Jackson would call it fabricated, or still demand he go to jail.


~~ My Opinion. This entire thing was a series of Unfortunate events. The death of a Person should not have happened. But Multiple things resulted in it. Martin's being suspended from school and not being in his normal Neighborhood. Zimmerman's seeming obsession with keeping his neighborhood safe/crime free. Martin's not going straight home when he perceives someone staring/following him. Zimmerman's following of someone he "deemed" suspicious. The confrontation, be it Martin or Zimmerman who instigated. The fight, same as confrontation. Finally the Shooting.

None of these things NEEDED to happen, and you could have broken any one and have stopped the chain. But that's life really. You can see perfectly after it happens. IF Zimmerman is either tried, and found innocent, or never tried at all, and he really did NOT mean to kill Martin, his life is ruined anyway at this point. If he is tried and convicted, he goes away for life. Either way, his Life is over.

[Alafaya]

People "high on pot" typically don't jump people.

[Menos]

Menos, Back doesn't care about facts or due process. It's His Opinion that this was cold blooded murder.

Hell, a tape could surface proving it was self defense, and Back, and People like Sharpton and Jackson would call it fabricated, or still demand he go to jail.

Teach me for wandering into regions of the forum I normally don't.

[Ryvicke]

Did he pursue? If you believe the posted article and apparent corroborated witness statement, dude was walking back to his card and kid pursued him.

Funny how facts that aren't in question don't appear so much as fact and do appear in question...

I'm referring only to the recorded 911 operator tape in which he should not follow the suspect but continues to do so. I am not taking part in any of the hilarious "what-if!" scenarios going on in this thread.

Also, you may have caught the interviews with the Neighborhood Watch coordinator that gave Zimmerman the training, who shared her materials and guidelines for NW: namely that no one on NW carry a firearm and that they are there to observe and report.

[Back]

Teach me for wandering into regions of the forum I normally don't.

Try just reading my posts for what they are to form your own opinion instead of letting some idiot make it for you.

We've all got opinions about what happened. I am not ashamed to voice mine.

[Delias]

God I never would've guessed this thread would get this massive. Racists gotta race!

Sorry about "mob mentality" guys but the court of public opinion is never going to change on this thing. We know two facts that aren't in any question: dude did the opposite of what the police told him to and pursued, dude shot kid. Those two things will never change, so people will always be pissed.

Continue breathless discussion.


Not to get technical, but 911 dispatchers aren't police. They are just phone jockeys. Three of my sisters did it at the Addison PD.

[Drew]

911 operators have about as much authority as meter maids, maybe less. Certainly far less than a flight attendant.

[Drunken Durfin]

People "high on pot" typically don't jump people.

Nope. Generally they get the munchies and head out in the middle of the night for snacks, like skittles and iced tea. I always hated having to go out when I was stoned with the munchies back in college. The paranoia would kick in and I knew, just KNEW, that everyone was watching me and knew I was stoned. Every second I was out and about raised the odds of the police jumping out from around a corner and putting me in jail for the rest of my life because I was stoned.

As I go older I learned to cook the pizza rolls, and let them cool, before I got stoned.

[Ryvicke]

Not to get technical, but 911 dispatchers aren't police. They are just phone jockeys. Three of my sisters did it at the Addison PD.

Having worked for a long-ass time in emergency management and done work and toured the emergency operations centers of about 45 counties in the NY/NJ region I can tell you that many 911 dispatchers are technically police officers. At the very least they receive weeks of training in emergency response.

My post is about the perceptions of the 75% of polled Americans who would like to see an arrest made in the case and the issues of mob mentality. There is a tape, which has been played frequently, in which a person of some unknown authority (a 911 call center worker) tells the man that he should not follow, and he does anyway, he then later shoots Trayvon. These two things are recorded fact and are also the perception of many Americans.

[Atlanteax]

Btw, would it not possibly be considered "obstruction of justice" if Trayvon's family is indeed deleting his twitter / FB / etc?

To what extent would the family's right to privacy cover it (Trayvon *did* put it out there in the public domain, and privacy issues related to being a student is another matter in play), when feasibly some details there would be meaningful to the ongoing investigation?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You should tweet to #no_limit_nigga and ask. I don't know.

[Drunken Durfin]

Because fabricating that kind of stuff takes time. I mean, look at the lousy job they did framing OJ. If they had taken their time planting the evidence correctly in that case he would not have walked.


http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_balance.gif New witness saw Trayvon... 03-27-2012 08:10 AM lmao omg you must be black if you think oj was innocent wow

Apparently you don't know me. In the context I thought it was obvious that I was being sarcastic.

On a related note, I lived in LA when that went down and actually worked on the OJ defense team as a technical consultant for the electronic evidence presentation part of the case. After the first two weeks I quit. He killed those people, anyone who believes otherwise I put in the same bucket as folks who think that the earth is only 5000 years old and dinosaur bones were put in the ground by God to test the faith of the people.

Oh, and sign your rep pussy, even if it is grey.

[Atlanteax]

People "high on pot" typically don't jump people.


Nope. Generally they get the munchies and head out in the middle of the night for snacks, like skittles and iced tea. I always hated having to go out when I was stoned with the munchies back in college. The paranoia would kick in and I knew, just KNEW, that everyone was watching me and knew I was stoned. Every second I was out and about raised the odds of the police jumping out from around a corner and putting me in jail for the rest of my life because I was stoned.

As I go older I learned to cook the pizza rolls, and let them cool, before I got stoned.

Granted that "high on pot" in itself does not tend to lead to aggressive behavior ... the paranoia/etc resulting from an altered mental state certainly would not had been a positive factor in whatever decision-making Trayvon was doing that night, and instead only heightened the probability of making poor/bad decisions.

[Delias]

Having worked for a long-ass time in emergency management and done work and toured the emergency operations centers of about 45 counties in the NY/NJ region I can tell you that many 911 dispatchers are technically police officers. At the very least they receive weeks of training in emergency response.

My post is about the perceptions of the 75% of polled Americans who would like to see an arrest made in the case and the issues of mob mentality. There is a tape, which has been played frequently, in which a person of some unknown authority (a 911 call center worker) tells the man that he should not follow, and he does anyway, he then later shoots Trayvon. These two things are recorded fact and are also the perception of many Americans.

"Technically" police officers. To be honest, I've known an awful lot of cops and I'm generally more worried about their behavior than the behavior of those they are policing... just my opinion, though, and it's really only backed up by years of seeing the violence and corruption first hand. It could be that the new school of cops are a kinder, fluffier bunch, as I really only know the old timers now.

I really have nothing to add here- I'll just hope for justice, whatever that may be. It's such a marvellously rare thing that I will lump it in with my hopes for a blowjob from angelina jolie and olivia wilde (simultaneous). In fact, I am going to concentrate on that second hope for a few minutes, just to cleanse my mental palate.

[Menos]

I think being a 911 operator in Florida just requires a training workshop and refreshers. Some might be police officers as well, in so much as my grocer might also be one.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0400-0499/0401/Sections/0401.465.html

[Warriorbird]

Granted that "high on pot" in itself does not tend to lead to aggressive behavior ... the paranoia/etc resulting from an altered mental state certainly would not had been a positive factor in whatever decision-making Trayvon was doing that night, and instead only heightened the probability of making poor/bad decisions.

I'm sure you're totally familiar with that sort of thing.

[Ryvicke]

"Technically" police officers. To be honest, I've known an awful lot of cops and I'm generally more worried about their behavior than the behavior of those they are policing... just my opinion, though, and it's really only backed up by years of seeing the violence and corruption first hand. It could be that the new school of cops are a kinder, fluffier bunch, as I really only know the old timers now.

I really have nothing to add here- I'll just hope for justice, whatever that may be. It's such a marvellously rare thing that I will lump it in with my hopes for a blowjob from angelina jolie and olivia wilde (simultaneous). In fact, I am going to concentrate on that second hope for a few minutes, just to cleanse my mental palate.

Good call on that palate cleanse. I fucking hate cops, honestly. The NYPD is probably one of the most dysfunctional agencies I have ever had to work with and I think that cops, individually, are generally fucking idiots.

It doesn't change the fact that probably 99% of Americans that suspect someone of burglary in their neighborhood would call the cops, stay in their car (or, as the 911 operator requested Zimmerman do, go back to his house so the cops could take his statement there--he hilariously declined and said he didn't want to say his address, paranoid much?) and let the police handle it.

I also really want to make the distinction that 911 workers are a primary coordinating element of the entire mechanism of Public Safety in America, are insanely important and hopefully jurisdictions make sure they're very well-trained. They are often, especially in smaller counties, police officers.

[Atlanteax]

I'm sure you're totally familiar with that sort of thing.

Classic Warriorbird, I presume?

You're one sad-arsed individual.

[Warriorbird]

Classic Warriorbird, I presume?

You're one sad-arsed individual.

And you're pretty free making judgements about a kid who's totally alien from your worldview.

[Ryvicke]

I think being a 911 operator in Florida just requires a training workshop and refreshers. Some might be police officers as well, in so much as my grocer might also be one.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0400-0499/0401/Sections/0401.465.html

Your link gives no actual details of 911 operator training, it's also state legislation. States' laws would never have detailed input on how locals with home rule coordinate or respond to public safety issues beyond giving details of what waivers are available when governor's or state execs enact disaster declarations.

I'm under the impression that you guys think these people just work in some room taking calls like a telemarketer. The watch commands from the shittiest counties in Northern CT and upstate NY to very well-funded OEM's like NYC and Jersey City are usually huge, underground and secure and are surrounded with massive screens tracking the actions and coordinating agencies like Department of Buildings, DOT, FDs and PDs all at once. The job isn't bullshit, from what I've seen.

[Back]

The the argument is you don't have to heed the advice of someone on the answering end of a 911 call.

Can we agree that its probably BEST to heed the advice of a 911 operator?

And had Zimmerman done so Trayvon would not be dead?

[Latrinsorm]

(The leaked account says Martin approached him from behind and said "Do you have a problem?" to which Zimmerman said "No." and he then replied "Now you do." and struck him)
Did he pursue? If you believe the posted article and apparent corroborated witness statement, dude was walking back to his card and kid pursued him. This is an important point, and one that has to be made clear. Martin did not approach Zimmerman. It is a matter of public record that Zimmerman pursued Martin, in vehicle and on foot. Martin may then have circled around behind him, who knows, but you don't get to pursue someone then blame it on them when they turn the tables on you. Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, period. The confrontation resulted in the death of Martin, period. The fine points of Florida law may say that's ok, anything that happened in the interim may have made it more justified, but if Zimmerman had been just a little bit less of a stupid asshole a 17 year old would be alive. Period.
I just heard on the news that Zimmerman says Martin tried to take his gun while they were on the ground. Not sure if that's true or not, but if it is, could you blame him?Yes! If you are carrying a gun, you don't go around picking fights like an asshole. What do you think is going to happen? Incidents like this would drive me crazy if I was a responsible gun owner.
But new details leaked to reporters this week by law enforcement officials in Sanford and school officials in Miami, where Martin lived with his mother, have clouded the All-American, good-boy image that Martin’s supporters have embraced.

For perhaps the first time the family has had to take a defensive posture. The family confirmed what had been until Monday just rumor. Trayvon had been on a 10-day suspension from school when he was killed last month. School officials found an empty baggie with marijuana residue in his book bag. He’d also been suspended before, the Miami Herald reported, for tardiness and for graffiti in school.

Law enforcement officials in Sanford also leaked internal reports to the Orlando Sentinel detailing what George Zimmerman allegedly told investigators about the night of the shooting. According to the official report, police say Zimmerman told them that Martin punched him first, the two fell to the ground and Martin then proceeded to bang Zimmerman’s head onto the sidewalk.

And a website has published what it claims are tweets Martin sent from his now-deleted Twitter account, many of which reveal crude languageA teenager smoking pot and using crude language on the Internet? I take back everything I said, he absolutely deserved to be shot.

[Jarvan]

The the argument is you don't have to heed the advice of someone on the answering end of a 911 call.

Can we agree that its probably BEST to heed the advice of a 911 operator?

And had Zimmerman done so Trayvon would not be dead?

That's Like stating that if Martin hadn't been a pothead he wouldn't be dead either.

Which is illegal in FL, Smoking pot, or following someone when 911 dispatcher tells you not to?

Can't use one argument without the other.

[Back]

That's Like stating that if Martin hadn't been a pothead he wouldn't be dead either.

Which is illegal in FL, Smoking pot, or following someone when 911 dispatcher tells you not to?

Can't use one argument without the other.

No it is not. Not even close.

Man, you are really going out into left field with your wild ass assumptions and associations.

[Atlanteax]

This is an important point, and one that has to be made clear. Martin did not approach Zimmerman. It is a matter of public record that Zimmerman pursued Martin, in vehicle and on foot. Martin may then have circled around behind him, who knows, but you don't get to pursue someone then blame it on them when they turn the tables on you. Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, period. The confrontation resulted in the death of Martin, period. The fine points of Florida law may say that's ok, anything that happened in the interim may have made it more justified, but if Zimmerman had been just a little bit less of a stupid asshole a 17 year old would be alive. Period.

Confrontation was over when Zimmerman resigned to waiting for the police. Trayvon re-instigated the situation when he 'jumped' Zimmerman.


A teenager smoking pot and using crude language on the Internet? I take back everything I said, he absolutely deserved to be shot.

He got himself shot, when as an angry headstrong teenager with a history of rather questionable decision-making, decided to go for the gun.

.

Btw, where is the outrage over this shooting in Sarasota, Florida?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/killer-shot-dead-brit-begged-life-021049784.html

[WRoss]

The the argument is you don't have to heed the advice of someone on the answering end of a 911 call.

Can we agree that its probably BEST to heed the advice of a 911 operator?

And had Zimmerman done so Trayvon would not be dead?

This is completely irrelevant. You could say that had Zimmerman not followed Trayvon and then Trayvon went on to murder someone, Zimmerman should be charged with failure to act or whatever the FL statute is. Its hypothetical and irrelevant to the facts of the case.

Also, if anyone thinks this was just some little kid, you might want to recheck that. Trayvon was 6'3" and 220+. Regardless of your mental capabilities, maturity or otherwise, that size person can deal grave damage to the average person. Zimmerman isn't small himself, but he's smaller than Trayvon.

[Parkbandit]

This is shaping up to be similar to the Duke Lacrosse fiasco.

[Menos]

Having an important job in a fancy bunker does not make a person either a police officer or all knowledgeable about the right thing to do. Heck, even a police officer is just a guy with a bit of training and a badge. I was only trying to give accurate information so calm down.

If you like here is the link for the local 911 call center, but it sure looks like they follow the state law as well.

http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/dps/ec/index.aspx

Here is the training overview.

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/demo/ems/2010Framework.pdf


Your link gives no actual details of 911 operator training, it's also state legislation. States' laws would never have detailed input on how locals with home rule coordinate or respond to public safety issues beyond giving details of what waivers are available when governor's or state execs enact disaster declarations.

I'm under the impression that you guys think these people just work in some room taking calls like a telemarketer. The watch commands from the shittiest counties in Northern CT and upstate NY to very well-funded OEM's like NYC and Jersey City are usually huge, underground and secure and are surrounded with massive screens tracking the actions and coordinating agencies like Department of Buildings, DOT, FDs and PDs all at once. The job isn't bullshit, from what I've seen.

[WRoss]

This is shaping up to be similar to the Duke Lacrosse fiasco.

Except I'm not related to either party. My cousin is set for life after that case.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The the argument is you don't have to heed the advice of someone on the answering end of a 911 call.

Can we agree that its probably BEST to heed the advice of a 911 operator?

And had Zimmerman done so Trayvon would not be dead?

But we don't actually know that Zimmerman followed him, or if Zimmerman lost him and Trayvon followed him back to his truck, or something else... do we?

[Jarvan]

This is an important point, and one that has to be made clear. Martin did not approach Zimmerman. It is a matter of public record that Zimmerman pursued Martin, in vehicle and on foot. Martin may then have circled around behind him, who knows, but you don't get to pursue someone then blame it on them when they turn the tables on you. Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, period. The confrontation resulted in the death of Martin, period. The fine points of Florida law may say that's ok, anything that happened in the interim may have made it more justified, but if Zimmerman had been just a little bit less of a stupid asshole a 17 year old would be alive. Period.


This is the important point that has to be made clear.. if I am following someone down the street, and I turn around and go back to my car, and they proceed to follow me and attack me, I Started the altercation?

I am sorry.. but you must be either on some HEAVY duty meds, or just plain insane.

Following someone does NOT give that other person the right to attack you. Period.

If Zimmerman had NOT killed Martin, it's very likely the he could have seriously hurt him, but at the VERY least, would be arrested for assault. Zimmerman wouldn't have been arrested for ANYTHING.

Laws all over are different, but I doubt they are so different in some places that the person that throws the first punch is NOT in the wrong where you live -possibly lala land-

My Sister's ex-husband has been arrested for numerous fights. In one fight, the guy called him so many names I can barely remember half of them, then proceeded to insult his mother, sister.. etc etc. . so he decked him, then got his ass beaten. HE got arrested, not the other guy, since he was defending himself.

Point being, Even if when Martin CONFRONTED Zimmerman, Zimmerman had said something like fink coon, or stupid N--ger to his face, he couldn't have legally struck Zimmerman.

The upstanding -suspended- law abiding -pot smoking/possible thief- 13 year old cute kid -17 year old much taller very physically fit football player- confronted -attacked- a much older out of shape man.

Once again, this shouldn't have happened, but to say that Martin did nothing wrong.. bullshit and you damn well know it.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Except I'm not related to either party. My cousin is set for life after that case.

How so?

[WRoss]

But we don't actually know that Zimmerman followed him, or if Zimmerman lost him and Trayvon followed him back to his truck, or something else... do we?

Stop bringing up the facts of the case! Hypotheticals are how we are going to determine this case.

[WRoss]

How so?

My cousin was one of the lacrosse payers. Not sure who paid the money, but I believe they all got 7 figures, closer to 8, for that.

[WRoss]

Following someone does NOT give that other person the right to attack you. Period.

This is the point of the case that I think will be argued. Following someone could cause mental duress and therefore be considered assault. Trayvon's legal team would have to paint a picture where Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman and expressed clearly that he was threatened by Zimmerman. Same could be said if Zimmerman stopped and Trayvon followed him.

[Jarvan]

No it is not. Not even close.

Man, you are really going out into left field with your wild ass assumptions and associations.

1) if Zimmerman hadn't followed Martin, Martin wouldn't have been killed.

2) if Martin hadn't been suspended from school, he wouldn't have been there to get shot.

In 1, Zimmerman had stated to the dispatcher that the person was staring at him, and coming his way. then took off. As far as we know, Martin could have been circling around to get behind the guy he thought was staring at him. Who knows.

In 2, This isn't where he normally lived. So it's plausible that if he hadn't been suspended he wouldn't have been in that town to get shot.

BOTH are plausible. Just cause one does not fit your mindset does not make it true.

You can also use the same wild statements in everything...

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

This is an important point, and one that has to be made clear. Martin did not approach Zimmerman. It is a matter of public record that Zimmerman pursued Martin, in vehicle and on foot.

Zimmerman instigated the confrontation, period. The confrontation resulted in the death of Martin, period. The fine points of Florida law may say that's ok, anything that happened in the interim may have made it more justified, but if Zimmerman had been just a little bit less of a stupid asshole a 17 year old would be alive. Period.

Pretty much agree with all this (took out the circled around part). He (Zimmerman) should have let the police do their job.

If the accounts of Martin then attacking Zimmerman are true, it's just more stupid asshole being added to the mix.

What is absurd is the media, congress weighing in, Sharpton and Jackson, the demonizing of both individuals... no one wins in this.

[WRoss]

Btw, would it not possibly be considered "obstruction of justice" if Trayvon's family is indeed deleting his twitter / FB / etc?

To what extent would the family's right to privacy cover it (Trayvon *did* put it out there in the public domain, and privacy issues related to being a student is another matter in play), when feasibly some details there would be meaningful to the ongoing investigation?

For FB, at least, once you post anything, it is public information and cached by FB. If you delete it from your profile, FB still has it. I know that you can request that they delete this information, but it's not as easy as just deleting something from your profile.


Sorry for the multiple posts, this thread is updating really fast.

[Jarvan]

This is the point of the case that I think will be argued. Following someone could cause mental duress and therefore be considered assault. Trayvon's legal team would have to paint a picture where Trayvon tried to get away from Zimmerman and expressed clearly that he was threatened by Zimmerman. Same could be said if Zimmerman stopped and Trayvon followed him.

Well, in this case. If the stand your ground law is applied, it will never go to court anyway.

If it isn't applied, and I don't know if it should, I think it will be VERY hard to argue that Martin had a right to confront and assault someone who HAD been following him, then stopped.

Still, I doubt if your walking down the street, and you see someone behind you, and they make all the same turns as you do, and you hide behind a corner, ambush them, and punch them.. that you will get away with it.

[Parkbandit]

This is completely irrelevant. You could say that had Zimmerman not followed Trayvon and then Trayvon went on to murder someone, Zimmerman should be charged with failure to act or whatever the FL statute is. Its hypothetical and irrelevant to the facts of the case.

Also, if anyone thinks this was just some little kid, you might want to recheck that. Trayvon was 6'3" and 220+. Regardless of your mental capabilities, maturity or otherwise, that size person can deal grave damage to the average person. Zimmerman isn't small himself, but he's smaller than Trayvon.

Are you sure about those stats? I thought Trayvon was like 140 or something small.

Not that it makes a single bit of difference.

[Jonty]

Yes! If you are carrying a gun, you don't go around picking fights like an asshole. What do you think is going to happen? Incidents like this would drive me crazy if I was a responsible gun owner.

Oh, I meant can you blame Martin for trying to take the gun during the scuffle. I know I'd try to take the gun if some weirdo was following me and I ended up in an altercation with him.

[WRoss]

Are you sure about those stats? I thought Trayvon was like 140 or something small.

Not that it makes a single bit of difference.

I know I read it somewhere, but with the media coverage of this event, it could be very wrong.

[Back]

2) if Martin hadn't been suspended from school, he wouldn't have been there to get shot.

In 2, This isn't where he normally lived. So it's plausible that if he hadn't been suspended he wouldn't have been in that town to get shot.

BOTH are plausible. Just cause one does not fit your mindset does not make it true.

You can also use the same wild statements in everything...

Your wildly flawed argument assumes Trayvon would have been shot regardless of his reason to be there at that date and time. His father lived in the neighborhood so it was not unusual that Trayvon would be in that area.

Its not like he was hit by lightning.

Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman followed him with a loaded gun that resulted in Trayvon's death.

[Rinualdo]

Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman followed him with a loaded gun that resulted in Trayvon's death.

I think you meant to say Zimmerman was doing nothing illegal when Trayvon came up behind him, broke his nose, slammed his head into the ground repeatedly, and then got shot.

[Latrinsorm]

Confrontation was over when Zimmerman resigned to waiting for the police. Trayvon re-instigated the situation when he 'jumped' Zimmerman.I assume you have been in a fight. If the other person called time out, would you have taken them seriously? Do you think that is analogous to the way you describe this situation?
He got himself shot, when as an angry headstrong teenager with a history of rather questionable decision-making, decided to go for the gun.So you're with Eschaton, when a stranger comes at you with a gun you should quietly reason with them and if possible leave.
This is the important point that has to be made clear.. if I am following someone down the street, and I turn around and go back to my car, and they proceed to follow me and attack me, I Started the altercation?Not following, chasing after them so hard that you are out of breath. If you run at someone who has done nothing to you, you started it. If you are the one carrying a gun, you have an extra obligation to not be a dumb prick. I don't need a Florida statute to tell me what's right and wrong, do you?
Once again, this shouldn't have happened, but to say that Martin did nothing wrong.. bullshit and you damn well know it.Good thing I didn't say that. I also didn't say I was drooling to see Zimmerman's heart ripped out. You seem to have a problem with distorting what people are saying.

[Parkbandit]

Your wildly flawed argument assumes Trayvon would have been shot regardless of his reason to be there at that date and time. His father lived in the neighborhood so it was not unusual that Trayvon would be in that area.

Its not like he was hit by lightning.

Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman followed him with a loaded gun that resulted in Trayvon's death.

You keep posting this over and over.. as if it will somehow become the truth with repetition.

You've now read the account given by Zimmerman and an eye witness that shows Trayvon initiated the confrontation and violence.. which would be illegal. The other story you've heard on the media is nothing more tha?n an opinion that is being driven by the media.

What if it actually happened like Zimmerman claims.. do you believe he should still be found guilty of murder?

[Parkbandit]

I think you meant to say Zimmerman was doing nothing illegal when Trayvon came up behind him, broke his nose, slammed his head into the ground repeatedly, and then got shot.

It actually burns a little when I agree with you...

[Latrinsorm]

You keep posting this over and over.. as if it will somehow become the truth with repetition.

You've now read the account given by Zimmerman and an eye witness that shows Trayvon initiated the confrontation and violence.. which would be illegal. The other story you've heard on the media is nothing more tha?n an opinion that is being driven by the media.

What if it actually happened like Zimmerman claims.. do you believe he should still be found guilty of murder?If Zimmerman had not chased Martin, there would have been no confrontation. This is what "initiate" means. The word you're looking for may be "continue" or "escalate".

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Was Trayvon not reported missing for three days by his parents? I read that somewhere and can't find it again.

[Jonty]

Confrontation was over when Zimmerman resigned to waiting for the police. Trayvon re-instigated the situation when he 'jumped' Zimmerman.

We don't know that. That's just what Zimmerman supposedly told the police. All we know is that Zimmerman pursued Martin. We don't know what happened after that. We don't know if he was really going back to his car. We don't know who confronted who.

The girlfriend says she heard Martin ask, "Why are you following me?", and Zimmerman ask, "What are you doing here?". That's much different from what Zimmerman told the police. Who's telling the truth? We don't know.



He got himself shot, when as an angry headstrong teenager with a history of rather questionable decision-making, decided to go for the gun.
We don't know that he decided to go for the gun either. I didn't even see that in Zimmerman's account of the events. I just heard a news spokesperson say that (Now that's hearsay. :wink:)

[Delias]

You keep posting this over and over.. as if it will somehow become the truth with repetition.



That's actually how the human brain works, which is why it is so easy to mislead people. To your mind, enough repetition makes it true.

[Menos]

Your wildly flawed argument assumes Trayvon would have been shot regardless of his reason to be there at that date and time. His father lived in the neighborhood so it was not unusual that Trayvon would be in that area.

Its not like he was hit by lightning.

Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman followed him with a loaded gun that resulted in Trayvon's death.

If you think the loaded gun thing is a major factor against him, you might not like Florida very much. We have just a shade over 1 million people licensed to carry a concealed firearm and that does not even include those people who opt to keep a firearm in their car (no license is required for that). We almost break 1.1 million if you include polices officers who may carry when off duty. That is 1 out of every 13 people over the age of 17 (not accounting for anyone ineligible for criminal reasons).

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/Number_of_Licensees_By_Type.pdf

[Ryvicke]

Having an important job in a fancy bunker does not make a person either a police officer or all knowledgeable about the right thing to do. Heck, even a police officer is just a guy with a bit of training and a badge. I was only trying to give accurate information so calm down.

If you like here is the link for the local 911 call center, but it sure looks like they follow the state law as well.

http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/dps/ec/index.aspx

Here is the training overview.

http://www.doh.state.fl.us/demo/ems/2010Framework.pdf

Menos, huh? Nothing you've said has struck me as anything awful or out of line in any way. You're probably one of the more reasonable people having this discussion.

I'm speaking up because I've had experience auditing shifts in 911 call centers and watch commands so I could do my job better. The people in those centers were not idiots, many held authority and they were, in general, the last line of municipal coordination, a subject that is near and dear to me and that, in my opinion, saves lives.

Anywho, so the outline of the introductory training program you posted there is 246 hours, or full time for 6 weeks. With further training up to 450 hours done for further specialized modules in Florida call centers. Seems appropriate to me for starters. Probably a little more than a flight attendant gets.

[Back]

That's actually how the human brain works, which is why it is so easy to mislead people. To your mind, enough repetition makes it true.

It also happens to be true. Funny how that works.

[Rinualdo]

If Zimmerman had not chased Martin, there would have been no confrontation. This is what "initiate" means. The word you're looking for may be "continue" or "escalate".

I think you're using a slippery slope argument to find the confrontation point. You can back this up all day long. As someone else pointed out, had he not been suspended from school, there would not have been a confrontation. Had he not followed Zimmerman back to his car and confronted him, there would have been no confrontation.

I think your use of "chase" is subjective. Could you not imagine a scenario where someone is waiting for police and wants to give them information on where the subject went? Or maybe a little bit of neighborhood watch zeal?

In your mind, who committed the first illegal act? In my mind, that is where "initiate" starts.

[Ryvicke]

Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman followed him with a loaded gun that resulted in Trayvon's death.


I think you meant to say Zimmerman was doing nothing illegal when Trayvon came up behind him, broke his nose, slammed his head into the ground repeatedly, and then got shot.

Which of these two statements is currently hearsay and which of these two statements is agreed upon by both sides?

Rin, dude, wow. You are usually a pretty fucking great voice of reason. I can only assume you were trolling to make PB look like a fucking tool when agreeing with your totally nonsensical post.

[Rinualdo]

We don't know that. That's just what Zimmerman supposedly told the police. All we know is that Zimmerman pursued Martin. We don't know what happened after that. We don't know if he was really going back to his car. We don't know who confronted who.



If you look at the article I linked, it shows that Zimmerman returning to his car was corroborated by witnesses.
Even if he didn't, we know Zimmerman had a broken nose and gashes on the back of his head. As best I can tell, Martin had no other trauma to his body other then the gunshot.

[Delias]

It also happens to be true. Funny how that works.

sorry, I don't commit to things as being "truth" until the evidence is overwhelming. If all possible evidence has been gathered, I may make a decision, but I will still always doubt if I was acting on the "truth".

Flawed perception and all that. Biggest truth in my life is gravity- a fat man has to fight that bitch every day.

[Menos]

Sorry for any confusion, thought you were implying I had slighted 911 operators. I think they (much like police) are generally quite competent and want to do good for everyone. I just wanted to point out how silly it was to condemn a man for murder because someone died after he didn't listen to what one particular one told him.


Menos, huh? Nothing you've said has struck me as anything awful or out of line in any way. You're probably one of the more reasonable people having this discussion.

I'm speaking up because I've had experience auditing shifts in 911 call centers and watch commands so I could do my job better. The people in those centers were not idiots, many held authority and they were, in general, the last line of municipal coordination, a subject that is near and dear to me and that, in my opinion, saves lives.

Anywho, so the outline of the introductory training program you posted there is 246 hours, or full time for 6 weeks. With further training up to 450 hours done for further specialized modules in Florida call centers. Seems appropriate to me for starters. Probably a little more than a flight attendant gets.

[Bobmuhthol]

I think you're using a slippery slope argument to find the confrontation point. You can back this up all day long. As someone else pointed out, had he not been suspended from school, there would not have been a confrontation.

The suspension is obviously not proximate cause. The running after a person you're "innocently reporting to the police" is really, really proximate cause.

I do enjoy all of the "there's no law against following someone" arguments, though. It's harassment. Try following someone on the street for more than 20 seconds and see how long you go unnoticed and unconfronted.

[Rinualdo]

Which of these two statements is currently hearsay and which of these two statements is agreed upon by both sides?

Rin, dude, wow. You are usually a pretty fucking great voice of reason. I can only assume you were trolling to make PB look like a fucking tool when agreeing with your totally nonsensical post.

Corroborated witness statements =! hearsay.

[Rinualdo]

The suspension is obviously not proximate cause. The running after a person you're "innocently reporting to the police" is really, really proximate cause.

I do enjoy all of the "there's no law against following someone" arguments, though. It's harassment. Try following someone on the street for more than 20 seconds and see how long you go unnoticed and unconfronted.

You see someone you don't know in your neighbors yard, you call the police, and you don't watch the guy to see where he goes? If you do, your harassing him?

[Bobmuhthol]

Take your argument straight to Irrelevant City, because this is a case of someone running after a total stranger he doesn't like the look of on a public street.

[Ryvicke]

If you look at the article I linked, it shows that Zimmerman returning to his car was corroborated by witnesses.
Even if he didn't, we know Zimmerman had a broken nose and gashes on the back of his head. As best I can tell, Martin had no other trauma to his body other then the gunshot.

Why do we know this? Why didn't the cops photograph Zimmerman's injuries and why aren't they all over every news site right now? Why isn't there a doctor's affidavit signed and being used as evidence so that Sanford PD has sufficient evidence to have not made an arrest?

[Atlanteax]

Confrontation was over when Zimmerman resigned to waiting for the police. Trayvon re-instigated the situation when he 'jumped' Zimmerman.I assume you have been in a fight. If the other person called time out, would you have taken them seriously? Do you think that is analogous to the way you describe this situation?
Trayvon was in a position to just keep walking away, since he was no longer being followed. Which is what he should had done.


He got himself shot, when as an angry headstrong teenager with a history of rather questionable decision-making, decided to go for the gun.So you're with Eschaton, when a stranger comes at you with a gun you should quietly reason with them and if possible leave.
The gun likely did not come into play until Trayvon 'jumped' Zimmermand, knocked himdown, and the gun subsequently became visible and then he went for it (was hidden in pants or coat prior).


This is the important point that has to be made clear.. if I am following someone down the street, and I turn around and go back to my car, and they proceed to follow me and attack me, I Started the altercation?Not following, chasing after them so hard that you are out of breath. If you run at someone who has done nothing to you, you started it. If you are the one carrying a gun, you have an extra obligation to not be a dumb prick. I don't need a Florida statute to tell me what's right and wrong, do you?
Zimmermand was doing the prudent thing of having called 911 to report a suspicious person, and then was waiting for the police to show up to do their job of finding & investigating Trayvon.

[Bobmuhthol]

Trayvon was in a position to just keep walking away, since he was no longer being followed.

Did Trayvon know that he was no longer being followed? I'll play the stupid analogy game, too. If someone shoots at you, but misses, and doesn't immediately fire another shot, do you then assume that everything is cool and you should ignore them?


The gun likely did not come into play until Trayvon 'jumped' Zimmermand, knocked himdown, and the gun subsequently became visible and then he went for it (was hidden in pants or coat prior).

WWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW.

Good luck with that argument in a criminal case.

[Back]

Sorry for any confusion, thought you were implying I had slighted 911 operators. I think they (much like police) are generally quite competent and want to do good for everyone. I just wanted to point out how silly it was to condemn a man for murder because someone died after he didn't listen to what one particular one told him.

PURE SPECULATION FOLLOWS----------

I'm surprised that if this guy was a "Neighborhood Watch Captain" he didn't value the input of a "team member" trained to answer his kind of call. Wouldn't he want to work as closely with the police, EMS, or who ever was involved on the phone? He may not have legally had to take that "advisory" but he did not and Trayvon is dead.

[Ryvicke]

Corroborated witness statements =! hearsay.

Read your post:


I think you meant to say Zimmerman was doing nothing illegal when Trayvon came up behind him, broke his nose, slammed his head into the ground repeatedly, and then got shot.

Link me to the corroborated witness evidence. There are a thousand articles written today that police agree that the statement/narrative Zimmerman has made to the press is the same as the one they took from him that night.

I have listened to and read the transcript for each 911 call that has been released from the neighbors that called in to 911 that night. I have not read anyone stating "I saw Trayvon walk up behind Zimmerman, break his nose, slam his head into the ground repeatedly, and then get shot."

It's hearsay at this point.

[Rinualdo]

Why do we know this? Why didn't the cops photograph Zimmerman's injuries and why aren't they all over every news site right now? Why isn't there a doctor's affidavit signed and being used as evidence so that Sanford PD has sufficient evidence to have not made an arrest?

How do you know there's not?

Police typically do not release evidence until the investigation is complete.

Read the linked articles. They all show corroboration and police reporting the information is consistent with their evidence.

[Menos]

Why do we know this? Why didn't the cops photograph Zimmerman's injuries and why aren't they all over every news site right now? Why isn't there a doctor's affidavit signed and being used as evidence so that Sanford PD has sufficient evidence to have not made an arrest?

I do not think there is a standard of enough evidence to not make an arrest. I am pretty sure it goes the other way. As to why any evidence they do have is not public, I am also pretty darn sure that is how every well handled police investigation in the US is supposed to be handled. Isn't it supposed to be kept private to avoid contaminating any jury pool/implicating the innocent?

[Rinualdo]

Read your post:



Link me to the corroborated witness evidence. There are a thousand articles written today that police agree that the statement/narrative Zimmerman has made to the press is the same as the one they took from him that night.

I have listened to and read the transcript for each 911 call that has been released from the neighbors that called in to 911 that night. I have not read anyone stating "I saw Trayvon walk up behind Zimmerman, break his nose, slam his head into the ground repeatedly, and then get shot."

It's hearsay at this point.

I even bolded it in both articles I linked in this thread.

[Menos]

Um, following someone is not the same as shooting at them or bashing their head into a sidewalk. You know that right?



Did Trayvon know that he was no longer being followed? I'll play the stupid analogy game, too. If someone shoots at you, but misses, and doesn't immediately fire another shot, do you then assume that everything is cool and you should ignore them?



WWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW.

Good luck with that argument in a criminal case.

[Jonty]

If you look at the article I linked, it shows that Zimmerman returning to his car was corroborated by witnesses.


I don't see any witness statements corroborating that Zimmerman was walking back to his vehicle and that Martin came up from behind him. Please point that out. The only witness corroboration that I've heard so far was from "John" who said he saw a man on top of another man who was wearing red. This means "John" saw Martin have the upper hand. It does not mean Martin initiated the confrontation. It does not Zimmerman was going back to his car. It does not mean Martin came up from behind him.

If you do have a link of a witness statement specifically corroborating Zimmerman's account, please share. I really haven't seen anything of the sorts yet.



Even if he didn't, we know Zimmerman had a broken nose and gashes on the back of his head. As best I can tell, Martin had no other trauma to his body other then the gunshot.
Okay...? What does this have to do with what I said? All I said was that we don't know if Zimmerman actually went back to his car or not, and we don't know who actually initiated the confrontation (Other than the fact that Zimmerman followed Martin.)

I'm not arguing that Martin did not hit Zimmerman, or even that he wasn't on top of him. We know that based on the released evidence. We just don't know the facts leading up to that point after the recorded 911 call ended.

[Atlanteax]

Trayvon was in a position to just keep walking away, since he was no longer being followed.Did Trayvon know that he was no longer being followed? I'll play the stupid analogy game, too. If someone shoots at you, but misses, and doesn't immediately fire another shot, do you then assume that everything is cool and you should ignore them?
Bob, maybe you should limit your stupid analogies to economics where you have yet to apply them in a realistic manner.



The gun likely did not come into play until Trayvon 'jumped' Zimmermand, knocked himdown, and the gun subsequently became visible and then he went for it (was hidden in pants or coat prior).
WWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWW.

Good luck with that argument in a criminal case.
Generally it is in the interest of armed people to not reveal that they are armed. There has been no indications, however remote, that Zimmerman announced to Trayvon that he was armed.

[Bobmuhthol]

1. You didn't address the fact that you just claim that Zimmerman was hanging out and posed no threat to Martin, with no evidence.
2. You didn't address the fact that you just claim that Martin "as a headstrong teenager" or whatever the fuck you said discovered Zimmerman's loaded firearm before Zimmerman ever revealed it, and then attempted to take it from Zimmerman, but died accidentally in the process, again with absolutely no evidence.

[Ryvicke]

How do you know there's not?

Police typically do not release evidence until the investigation is complete.

Read the linked articles. They all show corroboration and police reporting the information is consistent with their evidence.


I do not think there is a standard of enough evidence to not make an arrest. I am pretty sure it goes the other way. As to why any evidence they do have is not public, I am also pretty darn sure that is how every well handled police investigation in the US is supposed to be handled. Isn't it supposed to be kept private to avoid contaminating any jury pool/implicating the innocent?

Huh? Why do you think the Police Chief resigned? You guys know it's been 1 month since this happened right? But that we've only been going nuts about it for about a week. We're going nuts about it because there was no evidence gathered, no crime being investigated, no pictures taken. The town is getting massacred, you think the PD wouldn't say 'look, we've got pictures of this guy beat to shit, all evidence supports him acting in self defense, back off.' The investigation started about a week ago, bros. Read up.

[Rinualdo]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager


With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

[Back]

As someone else pointed out, had he not been suspended from school, there would not have been a confrontation.

I can't believe you are actually embracing this wildly flawed logic. Following this logic you could say that you should not exist because a gnat landed on the ass of a rhinoceros.

Trayvon was not struck by lightning. Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman consciously decided that Trayvon was a menace to his neighborhood and started following him with a loaded weapon.

[Rinualdo]

I can't believe you are actually embracing this wildly flawed logic. Following this logic you could say that you should not exist because a gnat landed on the ass of a rhinoceros.

Trayvon was not struck by lightning. Trayvon was an unarmed 17 year old doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman consciously decided that Trayvon was a menace to his neighborhood and started following him with a loaded weapon.


Read the whole quote Back. I know this is hard for you, but I was attempting to show Latrin just how ridiculous the case can be made for what "started" an incident.

[Jonty]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

Yeah... I posted that link last night.

I still don't see any concrete statement that there is an eyewitness to all of that. If there is, then wouldn't it be pretty simple of the PD to just state that they have a witness to the entire confrontation to end all of the controversy?

[Back]

Read the whole quote Back. I know this is hard for you, but I was attempting to show Latrin just how ridiculous the case can be made for what "started" an incident.

If you were using it as an example of flawed logic then I apologize. If you are saying that if Zimmerman had not initiated the conflict by deciding to follow Trayvon is the same flawed logic I could not disagree more.

[Rinualdo]

Yeah... I posted that link last night.

I still don't see any concrete statement that there is an eyewitness to all of that. If there is, then wouldn't it be pretty simple of the PD to just state that they have a witness to the entire confrontation to end all of the controversy?

I believe the PD has done pretty much that, stating most of the information in Zimmerman's report has been corroborated.

As the legal process moves along, more information and evidence will be released. For my part, I'll reserve judgement until all the evidence is on the table.

[Atlanteax]

1. You didn't address the fact that you just claim that Zimmerman was hanging out and posed no threat to Martin, with no evidence.
Refer to the 911 transcript of Zimmerman talking to the dispatcher

2. You didn't address the fact that you just claim that Martin "as a headstrong teenager" or whatever the fuck you said discovered Zimmerman's loaded firearm before Zimmerman ever revealed it, and then attempted to take it from Zimmerman, but died accidentally in the process, again with absolutely no evidence.
Refer to the suspensions for tardiness/graffiti, and the more known one of empty marijuana bag. This is not the record of a dutiful student.

As for the shooting, refer to that Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the face and knocked him down, after going up to him ... additionally none of the collaboration from witnesses indicated that there was knowledge of the gun prior to Trayvon being shot.

The speculation is whether Trayvon punched Zimmerman after Zimmerman revealed the gun (to prevent himself from getting shot) or simply punched Zimmerman, angry that he was being followed.

Zimmerman stated that Trayvon went for his gun, which was after he was knocked down ... and witness statements collaborate that they were on the ground together.

[Parkbandit]

Which of these two statements is currently hearsay and which of these two statements is agreed upon by both sides?

Rin, dude, wow. You are usually a pretty fucking great voice of reason. I can only assume you were trolling to make PB look like a fucking tool when agreeing with your totally nonsensical post.

Actually, one of those is conjecture and one is the account given to the Police by Zimmerman.

And you are looking like a fucking tool in this thread so far. Keep it up.. enjoy the crow pie you'll be force fed when this all shakes out.. ala Duke Lacrosse.

[Tgo01]

Also, if anyone thinks this was just some little kid, you might want to recheck that. Trayvon was 6'3" and 220+.

You know I keep hearing different accounts of Martin's weight but it's always either 140 or 150, but no one denies him being 6'3. I never really thought about it before but 140 pounds at 6'3, that's an extremely unhealthy weight for someone that tall isn't it? Especially considering he was on the football team?

[Rinualdo]

If you were using it as an example of flawed logic then I apologize. If you are saying that if Zimmerman had not initiated the conflict by deciding to follow Trayvon is the same flawed logic I could not disagree more.

If Zimmerman's report is accurate and he stopped following Trayvon then returned to his car, then yes, that is not an example of Zimmerman initiating the conflict.

I'm sure the police report will bear this out. How close to his vehicle was the body found, for example. If Trayvon died right next to Zimmerman's car, it would certainly lend creedence to Zimmerman's account of the incident, for example.

[Parkbandit]

Why do we know this? Why didn't the cops photograph Zimmerman's injuries and why aren't they all over every news site right now? Why isn't there a doctor's affidavit signed and being used as evidence so that Sanford PD has sufficient evidence to have not made an arrest?

Police departments typically don't gather evidence and then give it all over to every news site there is. If they did, you should question their motivation and ethics.

I'll take the wager that there is plenty of photographic proof of Zimmerman's injuries.. by the EMTs, the Police and the Hospital.

[Jarvan]

PURE SPECULATION FOLLOWS----------

I'm surprised that if this guy was a "Neighborhood Watch Captain" he didn't value the input of a "team member" trained to answer his kind of call. Wouldn't he want to work as closely with the police, EMS, or who ever was involved on the phone? He may not have legally had to take that "advisory" but he did not and Trayvon is dead.

Martin did not have to go back and confront him, and assault him, but he did, and is now dead.

Wow.. we can both play this game.

[Rinualdo]

From the same linked article


Zimmerman began yelling for help.
Several witnesses heard those cries, and there has been a dispute about whether they came from Zimmerman or Trayvon.
Lawyers for Trayvon's family say it was Trayvon, but police say their evidence indicates it was Zimmerman.
One witness, who has since talked to local television news reporters, told police he saw Zimmerman on the ground with Trayvon on top, pounding him — and was unequivocal that it was Zimmerman who was crying for help.
Zimmerman then shot Trayvon once in the chest at very close range, according to authorities.


When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.
Paramedics gave him first aid (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/0700300027.topic) but he said he did not need to go to the hospital. He got medical care the next day

[Parkbandit]

Huh? Why do you think the Police Chief resigned? You guys know it's been 1 month since this happened right? But that we've only been going nuts about it for about a week. We're going nuts about it because there was no evidence gathered, no crime being investigated, no pictures taken. The town is getting massacred, you think the PD wouldn't say 'look, we've got pictures of this guy beat to shit, all evidence supports him acting in self defense, back off.' The investigation started about a week ago, bros. Read up.

Lulz.

The investigation started the night of the incident. The police chief took a leave of absence because of nutjobs like you who think they know what happened because they watched the news and don't care about the actual evidence collected at the scene.

[Atlanteax]

Martin did not have to go back and confront him, and assault him, but he did, and is now dead.

The tldr; version of this tragedy.

[Ryvicke]

Police departments typically don't gather evidence and then give it all over to every news site there is. If they did, you should question their motivation and ethics.

I'll take the wager that there is plenty of photographic proof of Zimmerman's injuries.. by the EMTs, the Police and the Hospital.

So you don't think that if dude had went to the hospital due to his injuries that one fucking person defending themselves, their jobs, their integrity as investigators would've mentioned that?

Come on guys. It takes one picture to make this all go away, to get your entire town back to normal, to make sure your name isn't in every paper as a shitty PD/Chief/City and they don't say one thing in their defense? That's hilarious.

This isn't going to shake out like Duke lacrosse cause there's never going to be any silver bullet or great witness or anything else. The Police Chief resigned because his office failed to take proper forensic evidence, failed to do substance tests of any kind on the one witness and failed to give any shit whatsoever until the entire thing became a frenzy. That's why it is a frenzy to begin with.

[Tgo01]

People keep saying Zimmerman 'chased' Martin AFTER the 911 operator told him not to do so. From the 911 call Zimmerman says Martin ran away and he has no idea where he is now. Pretty sure I read somewhere there is a 2 minute gap between the end of the 911 call and when police showed up to the scene. So in 2 minutes this guy managed to run after, find and catch up to a 17 year old football player who had at least a 1 minute head start?

Either Martin isn't as fast as you would think a football player would be, he stopped and waited for Zimmerman OR it's exactly how Zimmerman said, he got out of his car and walked around for a bit then was attacked as he went back to his car.

[Menos]

The tldr; version of this tragedy.

+1

[Rinualdo]

So you don't think that if dude had went to the hospital due to his injuries that one fucking person defending themselves, their jobs, their integrity as investigators would've mentioned that?

Come on guys. It takes one picture to make this all go away, to get your entire town back to normal, to make sure your name isn't in every paper as a shitty PD/Chief/City and they don't say one thing in their defense? That's hilarious.


It was mentioned. Several times. Either you're trolling or ignoring all the posted links and police statements.

[Parkbandit]

This thread makes me feel dirty and uncomfortable.

[Ryvicke]

From the same linked article

The Orlando Sentinel isn't a bad paper, really, but please learn how to read for attribution, the entire article is quoted as being the account of Zimmerman or an 'on-background' attribution from a police officer as to what one witness has said. The article itself is not anything applicable to this discussion and proves nothing except that Zimmerman himself is admitting that his injuries were not serious enough to go to a hospital.

[Jarvan]

One thing, as for no arrest being made.

Originally, this case was considered Self defense under the Stand your Ground law. That being that case, once it was determined, at the scene of the altercation, that the evidence the police had followed this, they were UNABLE to detain him. FL law is very specific, under the law the police can not arrest or detain someone. That does NOT mean they don't continue to look into it.

As to why the Chief of Police stepped aside for the time being, I am sure he has a few million angry people yelling at him. In this case, it's best to recuse yourself and allow someone else handle it to PROVE you were not acting in a biased manor. -Just like Judges-

Same with the FL Attorney General.. HE recused himself as well, since the PD HAD sent him all the information in regards to the case right away.

Now.. unless your going to say that the officers that arrived on the scene, the Chief of Police, the District Attorney, and the State Attorney all are bigoted racists and dismissed evidence that would indicate that Zimmerman murdered Martin...

[Ryvicke]

It was mentioned. Several times. Either you're trolling or ignoring all the posted links and police statements.

No, actually, in the month since this occurred it was not mentioned. The leak last night has been the biggest info dump the case has had and is all the second-hand account from the man who did the shooting. The biggest issue with prosecuting SYG is that the account from the person that happens to be still alive is the only usable evidence with no evidence to contradict it, it is the de facto defense of all SYG claimants to claim they were in mortal danger, that is exactly the problem.

You continuing to bring up the statement from Zimmerman is trolling or just completely retarded.

[Warriorbird]

This thread makes me feel dirty and uncomfortable.

Welcome to the American legal system.

[Menos]

Statement released by Sandford police chief.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Some quotes.

Edit to add from the preface:


In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on
the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently
asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. Please understand that
since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what
information it can publicly release.



Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time
was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law
enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and
circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an
arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the
arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in
bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

Why did Mr. Zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the
role of a neighborhood watch member?
Mr. Zimmerman holds a concealed weapon permit issued from the State of Florida.
He is authorized to carry the weapon in a concealed manner wherever Florida
Statute dictates. Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a
neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors.
They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training
provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations
stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of
those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the
situation.

Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by
carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal
errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the
Sanford Police Department.

If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be
considered in this investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you
following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do
that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be
required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and
was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by
Trayvon.

[Ryvicke]

Statement released by Sandford police chief.

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

Some quotes.



Edit to add from the preface:

Yep, that entire statement is definitely worth reading. Very interesting for everything that is and is not said.

[Menos]

No, actually, in the month since this occurred it was not mentioned. The leak last night has been the biggest info dump the case has had and is all the second-hand account from the man who did the shooting. The biggest issue with prosecuting SYG is that the account from the person that happens to be still alive is the only usable evidence with no evidence to contradict it, it is the de facto defense of all SYG claimants to claim they were in mortal danger, that is exactly the problem.

You continuing to bring up the statement from Zimmerman is trolling or just completely retarded.

Wouldn't the de facto defense of every potentially accused person be to say they are innocent or the crime? Absent proof that they are guilty of a crime and that is exactly what they should remain.

[Latrinsorm]

Oh, I meant can you blame Martin for trying to take the gun during the scuffle. I know I'd try to take the gun if some weirdo was following me and I ended up in an altercation with him.I can't. Even if he was going for the gun to kill Zimmerman, I couldn't blame him too much for it. If you think it's kill or be killed, who can blame you for opting for the former? I can tell you about what Christ would do, but he had a cheat code going.

I also think it's very telling that this overpoweringly fit football player wasn't able to wrest away a handgun from the helpless banker being beaten to death.
I think you're using a slippery slope argument to find the confrontation point. You can back this up all day long. As someone else pointed out, had he not been suspended from school, there would not have been a confrontation. Had he not followed Zimmerman back to his car and confronted him, there would have been no confrontation.I'm banking on the concept of a reasonable person. A reasonable person would not expect deadly violence as a result from a school suspension. A reasonable person would expect deadly violence as a result from an armed pursuit, especially when the armed person is some civilian (read: untrained). This is why 1) his NW boss told him not to carry a gun and 2) the 911 operator told him not to pursue, right? What did he think was going to happen?
I think your use of "chase" is subjective. Could you not imagine a scenario where someone is waiting for police and wants to give them information on where the subject went? Or maybe a little bit of neighborhood watch zeal?One person is running away, the other person is running after them. That's chasing. It could be chasing for a good reason or a bad reason, sure, but it's still chasing.
In your mind, who committed the first illegal act? In my mind, that is where "initiate" starts.Like I said, I'm just not interested in the fine points of Florida law. I'm not a lawyer. In my mind, I imagine my niece being chased by someone, and I imagine what my response would be. It would not be "nothing illegal going on here, I have no reason to physically intervene". Let's hypothetically say you have children, and you hypothetically imagine that situation. What would you do?
Trayvon was in a position to just keep walking away, since he was no longer being followed. Which is what he should had done.It is absolutely a fact that Zimmerman eventually stopped pursuit, but this necessarily means that Zimmerman began pursuit earlier, which goes back to my previous point. If you chase after someone, you don't get to unilaterally make mutually binding decisions on when the altercation is finished. If I swing at you but suddenly stop as you swing back, you didn't start the fight. That would be ridiculous.
You know I keep hearing different accounts of Martin's weight but it's always either 140 or 150, but no one denies him being 6'3. I never really thought about it before but 140 pounds at 6'3, that's an extremely unhealthy weight for someone that tall isn't it? Especially considering he was on the football team?I was 6' 150, and I was only in ok shape. It's plausible for someone 6'3 in great shape to still be 150, especially if they build for speed.
Now.. unless your going to say that the officers that arrived on the scene, the Chief of Police, the District Attorney, and the State Attorney all are bigoted racists and dismissed evidence that would indicate that Zimmerman murdered Martin...Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm right. Then you make another one of these cartoonish straw men, and I feel better.

[Parkbandit]

Welcome to the American legal system.

While I can't disagree... the legal system wasn't the cause of my feelings.

It was Rinualdo posting in a manner that I agree with.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I realize this is old, but it's good to know that the real Black Panthers want nothing to do with this group.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324_1_sanford-vigilante-justice-black-men


SANFORD — Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PEOCVC000188.topic).
New Black Panther leader Mikhail Muhammad announced the reward during a protest in Sanford Saturday. And when asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 10,000 black men to capture Zimmerman, who shot Trayvon in a gated Sanford community on Feb. 26.
Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PLGEO100100410110000.topic) — where the 28-year old worked before the shooting, employees there told the Orlando Sentinel. He declined to say when the group would begin their search.
The firm where the Sentinel reported Zimmerman had been working said Saturday that he has not been to the company's Maitland office since the shooting.
Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz ofWashington, D.C.is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.
The party said they would not release the names of donors nor would they provide documentation to support the existence of donations.
The New Black Panthers announced the reward at a protest in Sanford Saturday, the activist group's third protest in the past two weeks over the fatal shooting of the Miami Gardens teen.
The group called for Zimmerman's arrest and threatened to find and detain him if police were not willing to do so. But group members didn't call for the mobilization of thousands until Saturday.
Muhammed led the group in chanting "Justice for Trayvon!" and "Black Power!"
"If the government won't do the job, we'll do it," Muhammad said, leading his group of eight party members in chants like "freedom or death" and "justice for Trayvon" while making the iconic gesture of raising their fists into the air.
City officials issued a statement, they said was approved by Sanford Police Captain Robert O'Connor, condemning the group's appeal and asking citizens to leave all arrests to them.
"The City is requesting calm heads and no vigilante justice," the statement said. "Attempts by civilians to take any person into custody may result in criminal charges or unnecessary violence."
The party members said they are tired of the inaction of government officials — from Sanford city officials up to the Governor, accusing them of lying and delaying justice.
They accused newly-appointed special prosecutor Angela Corley of being an enemy of the black community.
"She has a track record of sending innocent young black men and women to prison," he said.
Sanford police arrived toward the end of the demonstration Saturday asking onlookers and media to avoid walking into the street in front of The Retreat at Twin Lakes where Trayvon was killed.
As the officer walked back to his cruiser, Muhammad berated and pointed angrily at him saying "If you'd had shown this much concern, Trayvon may still be alive today."
The fiery rhetoric and often profanity-laden diatribes made some visitors to the impromptu memorial uncomfortable.
Pastor Moses Brown of Tampa (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/PLGEO100100404010000.topic) said he was disappointed with the Panthers' approach.
"We believe in a message of justice, not hate," said Brown, who was in town to pray at the memorial and attend the Monday event at Sanford's Civic Center. "We believe justice will come through the court system."
Brown, who is also the Chief executive officer of Feed Our Children, said he has been meeting with other Christian ministers to discuss the case.
While the Panthers chanted behind him, Brown said "I see parallel versions of how we are coping with this as a community. Some in anger and us, in prayer. But we are in America where we have our rights to expression."
Sanford resident James Tucker said the party's message is about vengeance not justice and will rouse a "lynch mob" that could spiral out of control into a race riot.
"I'm as much for black power as anybody but this is going to alienate the white friends we need to get things done," Tucker said, as he stood across the street from the demonstration.
Former Orange-Osceola County prosecutor Esther Whitehead said the Panthers' bounty opens them up to civil and possibly criminal liability.
"I can't see how anyone can go out and take action as a private citizen without some government action like the issuance of a warrant," she said. "It doesn't make sense. It doesn't sound reasonable."
The Southern Poverty Law Center says the New Black Panther Party, a black-separatist group founded in 1989, is "virulently racist and anti-Semitic," and its leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law officers.
Trayvon was killed Feb. 26 in the gated Retreat at Twin Lakes community while walking back to his father's fiancee's town house. Zimmerman spotted the unarmed teen and called the Sanford Police Department (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/topic/ORGOV000032.topic)'s nonemergency line to report a suspicious person.
Zimmerman shot Travon before officers could respond. Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. He has not been arrested and is not charged with a crime.
This is a breaking-news story. Check back for updates.
Susan Jacobson (http://bio.tribune.com/SusanJacobson) and Matthew Richardson of the Sentinel staff contributed to this report. arehernandez@tribune.com (arehernandez@tribune.com) or @ahernandez_os

Copyright © 2012, Orlando Sentinel

[Latrinsorm]

"The City is requesting calm heads and no vigilante justice," the statement said. "Attempts by civilians to take any person into custody may result in criminal charges or unnecessary violence."

The irony is just nauseating.

[Androidpk]

Mob justice != justice.

[Atlanteax]

"The City is requesting calm heads and no vigilante justice," the statement said. "Attempts by civilians to take any person into custody may result in criminal charges or unnecessary violence."

The irony is just nauseating.

What is the irony? Zimmerman never attempted to take Trayvon into custody.

However, I'd say that the 'outrage outrage rabble rabble rabble' calling for Zimmerman to be arrested is indeed emotional vigilantism.

What would be sad is that this incident likely would not had made national media had Trayvon successfully gained control of the gun and fatally shot Zimmerman.

[Bobmuhthol]

"No vigilante justice."

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

For the record, if the reward was real (I doubt it is because you can't make a citizen's arrest for someone the police won't arrest, right?) and I knew where Zimmerman was, I'd turn his shit in in a heartbeat for 10k.

[Menos]

I can't. Even if he was going for the gun to kill Zimmerman, I couldn't blame him too much for it. If you think it's kill or be killed, who can blame you for opting for the former? I can tell you about what Christ would do, but he had a cheat code going.

I also think it's very telling that this overpoweringly fit football player wasn't able to wrest away a handgun from the helpless banker being beaten to death.I'm banking on the concept of a reasonable person. A reasonable person would not expect deadly violence as a result from a school suspension. What did he think was going to happen?One person is running away, the other person is running after them. That's chasing. It could be chasing for a good reason or a bad reason, sure, but it's still chasing.Like I said, I'm just not interested in the fine points of Florida law. I'm not a lawyer. In my mind, It would not be "nothing illegal going on here, I have no reason to physically intervene". Let's hypothetically say you have children, and you hypothetically imagine that situation. What would you do?It is absolutely a fact that Zimmerman eventually stopped pursuit, but this necessarily means that Zimmerman began pursuit earlier, which goes back to my previous point. That would be ridiculous.I was 6' 150, and I was only in ok shape. Then you make another one of these cartoonish straw men, and I feel better.



A reasonable person would expect deadly violence as a result from an armed pursuit, especially when the armed person is some civilian (read: untrained). This is why 1) his NW boss told him not to carry a gun and 2) the 911 operator told him not to pursue, right?


Armed pursuit is a loaded term. He was trying to keep track of someone after reporting him to the police. The fact that he had a weapon concealed on his person makes this action no more or less threatening. If it turns out he was running down the street after Martin with gun in hand, then Martin would have plenty of reasonable fear to physically assault him. This however has not been reported anywhere I have seen.

As to your points.

1. The guy was going to the store and happened to be armed. That state describes me, my roommate, my mother, at least my three closest friends, and a million other Floridians.... The NW makes those suggestions to avoid liability, the same reason 99% of employers do it.

EDIT to add: Not to mention, if his version of the story turns out to be true, he was attacked well before the gun was even known. Meaning it is likely the only reason he is still alive with no brains splattered all over the sidewalk.

2. The operator said he did not need to pursue. She did not say not to.


If you chase after someone, you don't get to unilaterally make mutually binding decisions on when the altercation is finished. If I swing at you but suddenly stop as you swing back, you didn't start the fight.

Following someone is NOT a physical altercation. It may be creepy and suspicious, just like walking through someone's yard at night with a hoodie on is, but neither is justification for assault.


I imagine my niece being chased by someone, and I imagine what my response would be.

The niece thing is not very applicable. If I saw one man running after another man, it would not tell me much about what crimes may be happening. If I saw a man running after my 200 pound fairly strong father (let alone my 8 year old niece), I know exactly what I would do too.


It's plausible for someone 6'3 in great shape to still be 150, especially if they build for speed.Sometimes I'm not sure if I'm right.

My last broken ribs were at the hands of a 150 pound, 6 foot tall man. Damn ju jitsu blue belts.

[Atlanteax]

For the record, if the reward was real (I doubt it is because you can't make a citizen's arrest for someone the police won't arrest, right?) and I knew where Zimmerman was, I'd turn his shit in in a heartbeat for 10k.

Hey, it'd be free money...

[Jonty]

People keep saying Zimmerman 'chased' Martin AFTER the 911 operator told him not to do so. From the 911 call Zimmerman says Martin ran away and he has no idea where he is now. Pretty sure I read somewhere there is a 2 minute gap between the end of the 911 call and when police showed up to the scene. So in 2 minutes this guy managed to run after, find and catch up to a 17 year old football player who had at least a 1 minute head start?

Either Martin isn't as fast as you would think a football player would be, he stopped and waited for Zimmerman OR it's exactly how Zimmerman said, he got out of his car and walked around for a bit then was attacked as he went back to his car.

Or Zimmerman was blocking Martin's path back to the house (intentionally or unintentionally). Martin may just have thought Zimmerman was gone and started going back to the house and they crossed paths.

It's all up for speculation.

[Ryvicke]

Not to mention, if his version of the story turns out to be true, he was attacked well before the gun was even known. Meaning it is likely the only reason he is still alive with no brains splattered all over the sidewalk.

This blew my mind: so because a guy had a gun and shot Trayvon Martin, Martin is now a stone cold killer? A kid who could pop out of the house for candy and tea and along the way murder some guy just like that? That's the exact kind of bullshit mentality that 1.1 million people carrying guns around causes.

To say that the gun is probably the only reason Zimmerman is alive right now strikes me as the most ridiculous thing I've read so far in this thread.

[Jonty]

This blew my mind: so because a guy had a gun and shot Trayvon Martin, Martin is now a stone cold killer? A kid who could pop out of the house for candy and tea and along the way murder some guy just like that? That's the exact kind of bullshit mentality that 1.1 million people carrying guns around causes.

To be fair, we have no idea what kind of person this kid was. Having skittles and iced tea at that time of this incident doesn't prove whether or not he was a violent person.



To say that the gun is probably the only reason Zimmerman is alive right now strikes me as the most ridiculous thing I've read so far in this thread.
I agree. I don't think Martin would have beat this guy to death. Of course, that's just my opinion, though.

[Tgo01]

Or Zimmerman was blocking Martin's path back to the house (intentionally or unintentionally). Martin may just have thought Zimmerman was gone and started going back to the house and they crossed paths.

It's all up for speculation.

Possible, but even that scenario doesn't show Zimmerman chasing Martin down as has been talked about as 'fact' for the past couple of weeks.

[Tgo01]

This blew my mind: so because a guy had a gun and shot Trayvon Martin, Martin is now a stone cold killer? A kid who could pop out of the house for candy and tea and along the way murder some guy just like that? That's the exact kind of bullshit mentality that 1.1 million people carrying guns around causes.

He said that's if Zimmerman's story is true. Martin bashing his head against the sidewalk doesn't prove Martin was a 'stone cold killer' but I don't think Zimmerman could possibly know that at that time.

[Parkbandit]

To say that the gun is probably the only reason Zimmerman is alive right now strikes me as the most ridiculous thing I've read so far in this thread.

No way it's more ridiculous than this:


The investigation started about a week ago, bros. Read up.

PS - I'm a card carrying CWP holder.. which no doubt should comfort you.

[Jonty]

Possible, but even that scenario doesn't show Zimmerman chasing Martin down as has been talked about as 'fact' for the past couple of weeks.

Yeah, I don't think he chased him. But based on what I heard on the 911 call, it sounded like Zimmerman was locking up his can and intended to search for martin.

Part of what makes me think this is that the operator asked if he would meet the officer by the club house (or something like that), Zimmerman started to agree, but then asked if the officer could just call him and then Zimmerman would tell the officer what his current location was. Not sure if he wanted to confront Martin, or just keep an eye on him. But it sounded like his intention was not to stay put.

[Atlanteax]

This blew my mind: so because a guy had a gun and shot Trayvon Martin, Martin is now a stone cold killer? A kid who could pop out of the house for candy and tea and along the way murder some guy just like that?

To say that the gun is probably the only reason Zimmerman is alive right now strikes me as the most ridiculous thing I've read so far in this thread.

Well... Trayvon was smashing Zimmerman's head against the pavement ... who knew if he would stopped?

It seems very plausible that had Zimmerman not shot Trayvon, we would be reading about Trayvon being in jail for murder.

The most ridiculous thing so far in this thread is your suggestion that Trayvon was innocent and pure as white snow because he was 17 and was carrying a bag of skittles.

[TheEschaton]

You keep posting this over and over.. as if it will somehow become the truth with repetition.

You've now read the account given by Zimmerman and an eye witness that shows Trayvon initiated the confrontation and violence.. which would be illegal. The other story you've heard on the media is nothing more tha?n an opinion that is being driven by the media.

What if it actually happened like Zimmerman claims.. do you believe he should still be found guilty of murder?

Who is this eyewitness who is corroborating Zimmerman that Trayvon "started" the fight. The only witness I've heard of who has come close to saying anything in support of Zimmerman have only said that Trayvon was winning the fight by the end of it. I'd love to see a source.

[Menos]

This blew my mind: so because a guy had a gun and shot Trayvon Martin, Martin is now a stone cold killer? A kid who could pop out of the house for candy and tea and along the way murder some guy just like that? That's the exact kind of bullshit mentality that 1.1 million people carrying guns around causes.

To say that the gun is probably the only reason Zimmerman is alive right now strikes me as the most ridiculous thing I've read so far in this thread.

Notice I prefaced that with if his story turns out to be true. If it does, he was attacked out of the blue and had the back of his head bashed into a sidewalk while he cried for help loud enough to be heard on neighbors 911 calls. You do not think that qualifies as being in fear for his life, a state most often associated with someone trying to kill him?

[Jonty]

You've now read the account given by Zimmerman and an eye witness that shows Trayvon initiated the confrontation and violence.. which would be illegal.

Have a link to something including an eyewitness to Trayvon initiating the confrontation and violence? I haven't read that one yet.

(If you're talking about Rinualdo's link that states police say most of Zimmerman's account was corroborated by witnesses, then never mind. Ignore this post.)

[Latrinsorm]

Armed pursuit is a loaded term. He was trying to keep track of someone after reporting him to the police. The fact that he had a weapon concealed on his person makes this action no more or less threatening. If it turns out he was running down the street after Martin with gun in hand, then Martin would have plenty of reasonable fear to physically assault him. This however has not been reported anywhere I have seen.Not threatening, no, but endangering, as in "reckless endangerment"? Absolutely.
1. The guy was going to the store and happened to be armed. That state describes me, my roommate, my mother, at least my three closest friends, and a million other Floridians.... The NW makes those suggestions to avoid liability, the same reason 99% of employers do it.

EDIT to add: Not to mention, if his version of the story turns out to be true, he was attacked well before the gun was even known. Meaning it is likely the only reason he is still alive with no brains splattered all over the sidewalk.Zimmerman had every opportunity to leave his gun in his car before engaging in pursuit (or not engaging in pursuit at all). He chose to bring it with him. I don't think he had malicious forethought, or that he brought the gun with the express intent to shoot someone, but we have to agree that he brought it when he could have not.
2. The operator said he did not need to pursue. She did not say not to.Okay. My interpretation remains the same: the authorities don't want untrained civilians chasing people, because they can reasonably expect a bad outcome.
Following someone is NOT a physical altercation. It may be creepy and suspicious, just like walking through someone's yard at night with a hoodie on is, but neither is justification for assault.I say "chasing" and not "following" because they are distinct. I absolutely agree that creeping on someone for 5 minutes doesn't warrant assault, but chasing crosses a line. I agree that the niece example isn't exactly analogous, but it's useful to demonstrate at least that much. My reaction would be completely different to some perv.

[Ryvicke]

I just don't understand how there's 10 people in this thread talking about Martin bashing a guy's head against the pavement like they've seen a video of it and watched it in slo-mo and dissected it.

You dudes realize that that Orlando Sentinel article is all attributed to an account given by Zimmerman right? And in that account after Zimmerman is beaten so badly he had to shoot a guy, he declined getting any medical attention.

[Parkbandit]

Has anyone mentioned that this neighborhood had 8 break ins in the past 15 months?

[Parkbandit]

(If you're talking about Rinualdo's link that states police say most of Zimmerman's account was corroborated by witnesses, then never mind. Ignore this post.)

This. But to your point, I don't believe the Police said which parts of Zimmerman's story was corroborated.. so the initiation of violence might be only Zimmerman's account.

[Tgo01]

I just don't understand how there's 10 people in this thread talking about Martin bashing a guy's head against the pavement like they've seen a video of it and watched it in slo-mo and dissected it.

You dudes realize that that Orlando Sentinel article is all attributed to an account given by Zimmerman right? And in that account after Zimmerman is beaten so badly he had to shoot a guy, he declined getting any medical attention.

The police documented the injuries he had and he was treated for them but he didn't go to the hospital until the next day. Surely he is not the first person to think his injuries aren't that bad but then decide to go to the hospital the next day. Also there is an eyewitness that says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman which would also support his argument of Martin bashing his head against the pavement.

[Parkbandit]

I just don't understand how there's 10 people in this thread talking about Martin bashing a guy's head against the pavement like they've seen a video of it and watched it in slo-mo and dissected it.

You dudes realize that that Orlando Sentinel article is all attributed to an account given by Zimmerman right? And in that account after Zimmerman is beaten so badly he had to shoot a guy, he declined getting any medical attention.

The story was corroborated by witness(es) and the police investigation.. which was probably why Zimmerman wasn't arrested and still remains free.

Also, Zimmerman didn't get medical attention that evening, but went to the hospital the next day to get his nose and head taken care of.

[Menos]

Not threatening, no, but endangering, as in "reckless endangerment"? Absolutely.Zimmerman had every opportunity to leave his gun in his car before engaging in pursuit (or not engaging in pursuit at all). He chose to bring it with him. I don't think he had malicious forethought, or that he brought the gun with the express intent to shoot someone, but we have to agree that he brought it when he could have not.Okay.

You are still operating under the assumption that having the gun was the problem. The gun does nothing that a physically strong person cannot do (kill people). Tools are not evil or bad, people are. Which ever of them attacked the other is the problem, not the means by which they did it (sidewalk or gun).

[Parkbandit]

The police documented the injuries he had and he was treated for them but he didn't go to the hospital until the next day. Surely he is not the first person to think his injuries aren't that bad but then decide to go to the hospital the next day. Also there is an eyewitness that says he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman which would also support his argument of Martin bashing his head against the pavement.

FUFUFUFFUFUFUFFUFUFUFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUU

[Parkbandit]

Zimmerman had every opportunity to leave his gun in his car before engaging in pursuit (or not engaging in pursuit at all). He chose to bring it with him. I don't think he had malicious forethought, or that he brought the gun with the express intent to shoot someone, but we have to agree that he brought it when he could have not.

Seems to me, Zimmerman made the right decision that night to bring it.

[Ryvicke]

The story was corroborated by witness(es) and the police investigation.. which was probably why Zimmerman wasn't arrested and still remains free.

Also, Zimmerman didn't get medical attention that evening, but went to the hospital the next day to get his nose and head taken care of.

Yes, PB, we all read that article as well.

The problem is you can't read one article written based on the words of one person, with absolutely no detail as to what was corroborated and then start posting things like they're facts.

Zimmerman says his life was in mortal danger and he had already sustained serious injuries, he decided against going to a doctor that night and went the next day.

That's all.

[Ryvicke]

Seems to me, Zimmerman made the right decision that night to bring it.

Yes, I'm sure Zimmerman is right now very excited at the prospect of his life in hiding for the next decade and very happy to have brought his gun along with him that night.

[TheEschaton]

The definition of "lacerations on the back of the head" is ludicrously broad. I think it's telling that he didn't REQUIRE medical attention, walked away of his own volition without even a concussion that we know of, and only got treated the next day.

Also:

1) I would love corroboration of the idea that Zimmerman was walking back to his truck, specifically from another witness. No witness has said this yet to my knowledge.
2) I'd love to know where the final confrontation took place. Was it next to his truck? Was it within 50 feet? If Zimmerman supposedly only ever left his truck to see the street sign, and then walked back, it would seem probable that his truck was near the scene. From what I've heard, most of the witnesses said the body was lying on the back porch of their townhouses, which suggests to me the kid was cornered against houses, and not in the street near Zimmerman's truck. Obviously, some diagrams would be helpful here.
3) Character attacks on victims are typical bullshit pulled by defense attorneys. They are a murky area of the law, imo, and are only admissible if they speak to certain things in the specific criminal action. Smoking pot is irrelevant. Even burglary (which isn't robbery) is non-violent and would be inadmissible with any halfway decent lawyer. The event took place shortly after 7 pm, so his suspension is moot, as the time is both after school and "before" a normal time for criminality to be a driving suspicion in a reasonable person. In fact, 7 pm is probably one of the least likely times to commit a burglary.

[Tgo01]

Yes, PB, we all read that article as well.

The problem is you can't read one article written based on the words of one person, with absolutely no detail as to what was corroborated and then start posting things like they're facts.

Zimmerman says his life was in mortal danger and he had already sustained serious injuries, he decided against going to a doctor that night and went the next day.

That's all.

Are you totally choosing to ignore the police documenting his injuries and that he was treated for them that night and the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman?

Also what does him not going to the hospital that night prove? Self defense isn't just fearing for your life, it's also to prevent serious injury, do you really think Zimmerman had a duty to wait until he heard his skill crack before he did something?

[Jonty]

I don't fault him for having the gun. If he really needed to use it, then fine. I fault him for trying to take things into his own hands and not just staying put in his car to let the police to their jobs.

[Rinualdo]

A reasonable person would expect deadly violence as a result from an armed pursuit, especially when the armed person is some civilian (read: untrained).

Except this isn't what happened. He didn't know he was being pursued by an armed man.

[Rinualdo]

PS - I'm a card carrying CWP holder.. which no doubt should comfort you.

Another thing PB and I have in common.

I need to go straight Silkwood on myself.

[Ryvicke]

Are you totally choosing to ignore the police documenting his injuries and that he was treated for them that night and the witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman?

Also what does him not going to the hospital that night prove? Self defense isn't just fearing for your life, it's also to prevent serious injury, do you really think Zimmerman had a duty to wait until he heard his skill crack before he did something?

By documenting do you mean "not disagreeing with him having them"? Cause I haven't read anything that photographic evidence of his injuries exist anywhere. The only thing I've read is that the police have no objections to the details of his non-quoted narrative the Sentinel ran. The Sentinel article says he was given first aid at the scene but declined any further medical help. I have not read anywhere that he was taken to a police station afterward or meaningfully debriefed. I have read that the police definitely did not do toxicology.

[Parkbandit]

Yes, PB, we all read that article as well.

The problem is you can't read one article written based on the words of one person, with absolutely no detail as to what was corroborated and then start posting things like they're facts.

Zimmerman says his life was in mortal danger and he had already sustained serious injuries, he decided against going to a doctor that night and went the next day.

That's all.

Well, if you read the article, perhaps you should post in a manner that leads the reader to believe you understood it?

Also, since when is a broken nose not a serious injury? Since when is a head injury that was sustained by your head getting bashed against pavement not serious?

I had a serious knee injury in college... I kept playing for another 20 minutes, though limping. I thought I would just ice it down and it would be fine in the morning. I woke up, realized how bad it was, went to the doctor and ended up getting knee surgery that day.

It happens more often than you obviously believe.

[Parkbandit]

Yes, I'm sure Zimmerman is right now very excited at the prospect of his life in hiding for the next decade and very happy to have brought his gun along with him that night.

Let's see.. would I rather be alive or possibly be dead.

Yea, I choose alive.

It's not a tough choice.

[TheEschaton]

You know what I find amazing in that article?




That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.


It's like everyone is lopping off that last sentence and just accepting it as fact that it's corroborated that Martin started the fight and followed him back to his truck.

[Parkbandit]

I don't fault him for having the gun. If he really needed to use it, then fine. I fault him for trying to take things into his own hands and not just staying put in his car to let the police to their jobs.

I agree. I think he made a poor choice by leaving the safety of his vehicle and going to follow Trayvon.

That, however, doesn't make him guilty of murder.

[TheEschaton]

Also, where was it said his nose was broken?


When police arrived less than two minutes later, Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose, had a swollen lip and had bloody lacerations to the back of his head.

He had a bloody nose and lacs on his head which didn't require medical attention.

[Parkbandit]

Another thing PB and I have in common.

I need to go straight Silkwood on myself.

I fucking hate this thread.

Hey.. let's talk about Obama's gaffe with the Russian dude.. OBAMA IS PLANNING SOMETHING DEVIOUS!!!

[Jonty]

2) I'd love to know where the final confrontation took place. Was it next to his truck? Was it within 50 feet? If Zimmerman supposedly only ever left his truck to see the street sign, and then walked back, it would seem probable that his truck was near the scene. From what I've heard, most of the witnesses said the body was lying on the back porch of their townhouses, which suggests to me the kid was cornered against houses, and not in the street near Zimmerman's truck. Obviously, some diagrams would be helpful here.

From everything I heard, it sounds like it happened on some kind of path between or behind houses.

You can see the neighbor hood on Google Maps to get an idea. The area looks like what I pictured in my head.

111 Retreat View Circle, Sanford, FL




3) Character attacks on victims are typical bullshit pulled by defense attorneys. They are a murky area of the law, imo, and are only admissible if they speak to certain things in the specific criminal action. Smoking pot is irrelevant. Even burglary (which isn't robbery) is non-violent and would be inadmissible with any halfway decent lawyer. The event took place shortly after 7 pm, so his suspension is moot, as the time is both after school and "before" a normal time for criminality to be a driving suspicion in a reasonable person. In fact, 7 pm is probably one of the least likely times to commit a burglary.

I do think the character attacks can go too far. But I'm at least a little glad they shed some light on the real Trayvon, because all I saw at first was some picture of a tiny 12 year old looking kid.

[Parkbandit]

You know what I find amazing in that article?

It's like everyone is lopping off that last sentence and just accepting it as fact that it's corroborated that Martin started the fight and followed him back to his truck.

It's not like "everyone" is...



This. But to your point, I don't believe the Police said which parts of Zimmerman's story was corroborated.. so the initiation of violence might be only Zimmerman's account.

[Menos]

I don't fault him for having the gun. If he really needed to use it, then fine. I fault him for trying to take things into his own hand and not just staying put in his car to let the police to their jobs.

I am somewhat torn on this criticism. I want to expect and see police handle all crimes (or potential crimes), but I also live in a world where police are sometimes unable and other times unwilling to put forth the effort to do so. If he had been following someone intent on a burglary and prevented it, I would consider him a civic hero. He was there and he acted rather than just pass the buck.

On the other hand, I think I would have just gone on driving to the store. Without something more concrete than a suspicious person I would not feel the same importance for acting now rather than waiting (as I would if I witnessed an assault or other crime in progress). If my neighborhood had a rash of burglaries and my 47 other calls to 911 had done no good, I am not sure how that opinion would change.

[Ryvicke]

Another thing PB and I have in common.

At this point, after 4 years of reading threads on the PC where various members talk about their handguns it's not really notable that you two awesome badasses have concealed firearms. Post some pictures in the gun thread and let the gun dudes tell you how awesome or pussy both your guns are. I love how PB brought it up here, like "hey, hahah, I bet you don't like that I have a gun!!"

This is America, I have no issue with responsible people having guns, and I'd say after reading posts from both of you for years you're both responsible and professional adults with every right to have a lawful firearm.

I will say though: in my black-hearted liberal brain every single time it's brought up on this forum I just think you sound like you've got a very very small dick.

[TheEschaton]

If the attack was on a path between or behind some houses, and not near the street, I think Zimmerman's account loses a lot of credibility, especially considering he said he was downed in one punch, and insinuating the fight was rather stationary.

[Parkbandit]

Also, where was it said his nose was broken?

He had a bloody nose and lacs on his head which didn't require medical attention.

Lawyers, MSNBC and video.. I don't know what else would convince you:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc-tv/46849124/#46849124

[Atlanteax]

3) Character attacks on victims are typical bullshit pulled by defense attorneys. They are a murky area of the law, imo, and are only admissible if they speak to certain things in the specific criminal action. Smoking pot is irrelevant. Even burglary (which isn't robbery) is non-violent and would be inadmissible with any halfway decent lawyer. The event took place shortly after 7 pm, so his suspension is moot, as the time is both after school and "before" a normal time for criminality to be a driving suspicion in a reasonable person. In fact, 7 pm is probably one of the least likely times to commit a burglary.

See, this is why there is no justice in the U.S. justice system when criminals can get away with the crimes they commit due to technicalities.

How does Trayvon's past actions do *not* indicate that he is *not* an inherently good morale person?

For all the bitching that is done about the police and DA office when it comes to (supposedly false) evidence of wrong-doing ... there is not nearly enough bitching about how much defense lawyers rig trials (blocking legit guilt indicators) thru a pattern of horridly-determined prior precedents.

(example : actual murder weapon that was found in car truck is inadmissible because was not in plain view of officers when they originally approached vehicle)

[Atlanteax]

I will say though: in my black-hearted liberal brain every single time it's brought up on this forum I just think you sound like you've got a very very small dick.

You must have a very very small dick, for someone who is so afraid of guns.

[Menos]

If the attack was on a path between or behind some houses, and not near the street, I think Zimmerman's account loses a lot of credibility, especially considering he said he was downed in one punch, and insinuating the fight was rather stationary.

Headed back to his truck is not the same as standing next to his truck. I can start walking home from where I am right now, but it is still 18 miles away.

[Ryvicke]

Let's see.. would I rather be alive or possibly be dead.

Yea, I choose alive.

It's not a tough choice.

Do you have some secret evidence that the gun kept Zimmerman alive somehow?

Seriously--this guy's life is ruined, it's a no-brainer that he regrets everything he did that night. He and Casey Anthony should get acquainted in the special shack Florida puts its idiots that kill people but their police fuck up too badly to convict.

[Parkbandit]

At this point, after 4 years of reading threads on the PC where various members talk about their handguns it's not really notable that you two awesome badasses have concealed firearms. Post some pictures in the gun thread and let the gun dudes tell you how awesome or pussy both your guns are. I love how PB brought it up here, like "hey, hahah, I bet you don't like that I have a gun!!"

This is America, I have no issue with responsible people having guns, and I'd say after reading posts from both of you for years you're both responsible and professional adults with every right to have a lawful firearm.

I will say though: in my black-hearted liberal brain every single time it's brought up on this forum I just think you sound like you've got a very very small dick.

It's not a surprise you automatically think about dicks.

And my favorite is my Glock 17C.. which has already been called a shitty weapon by fuckers like Anticor and SotT.

[TheEschaton]

See, this is why there is no justice in the U.S. justice system when criminals can get away with the crimes they commit due to technicalities.

How does Trayvon's past actions do *not* indicate that he is *not* an inherently good morale person?

For all the bitching that is done about the police and DA office when it comes to (supposedly false) evidence of wrong-doing ... there is not nearly enough bitching about how much defense lawyers rig trials (blocking legit guilt indicators) thru a pattern of horridly-determined prior precedents.

(example : actual murder weapon that was found in car truck is inadmissible because was not in plain view of officers when they originally approached vehicle)

Because even the most foul person can be the innocent victim of a crime. Our legal system was thought up by sharper brains than you, buddy, and there's a very specific reason for not bringing up the moral character of the victim except in extenuating circumstances. It's not "defense attorneys rigging trials" to "block legit guilt indicators", that's just paranoid conservative bullshit on your part. It's the whole "she's a slut, that's why she got raped" defense.

Edit: Your example is retarded, as that's not character evidence but something completely different.

[Menos]

(example : actual murder weapon that was found in car truck is inadmissible because was not in plain view of officers when they originally approached vehicle)

Without that incentive to not search your car, every single guarantee of liberty is meaningless. The police cannot be prosecuted for actions taken in the line of duty through sovereign immunity (the courts have said even manufacturing evidence is not outside of that shadow of protection), so only the fear of losing the case (or of doing something inherently wrong) prevents them. A sad fact about the human species is that not doing it because it is inherently wrong is never enough for some people. That is why we have punishments.

[Menos]

Because even the most foul person can be the innocent victim of a crime. Our legal system was thought up by sharper brains than you, buddy, and there's a very specific reason for not bringing up the moral character of the victim except in extenuating circumstances. It's not "defense attorneys rigging trials" to "block legit guilt indicators", that's just paranoid conservative bullshit on your part. It's the whole "she's a slut, that's why she got raped" defense.

Edit: Your example is retarded, as that's not character evidence but something completely different.

Wow, we both totally took exception to that post on very different grounds. In retrospect the legit guilt indicators is also totally BS, but it wasn't what I noticed first.

[Parkbandit]

Do you have some secret evidence that the gun kept Zimmerman alive somehow?

If someone is on top of me after breaking my nose and is smashing my head against the pavement.. it's time for survival mode in my opinion.. and I don't want to quote Beyonce, but "I'm a survivor". I'll always side with my own self interests in that scenario.



Seriously--this guy's life is ruined, it's a no-brainer that he regrets everything he did that night. He and Casey Anthony should get acquainted in the special shack Florida puts its idiots that kill people but their police fuck up too badly to convict.

Like Jonty posted previously, no doubt Zimmerman made some mistakes.. the big one was leaving his vehicle. But I doubt he's regretting pulling the trigger if the violence was as bad as he claimed it was.

And do you have some secret evidence that the police fucked up this case.. or is it because you don't agree with the outcome, the police automatically must have made a mistake?

[Menos]

It's not a surprise you automatically think about dicks.

And my favorite is my Glock 17C.. which has already been called a shitty weapon by fuckers like Anticor and SotT.

I hate Glocks, I think they are shitty, and I still carry one. The sad fact is that no matter how uncomfortable it is and how much I want a manual safety, I am a better shot with it than anything else I own suitable for carry.

Edit to add, mine is the 23.

Edit to add again, Wait, the C?

[TheEschaton]

In fact, let me extemporaneously extrapolate on your retarded example. For a MURDER WEAPON to be thrown out of a case because it was not in sight of police officers when they approached the vehicle, it would have to be obtained through an illegal search.

For a search to be illegal, the cop would have to 1) not have a warrant, or 2) not have probable cause to search the car, or 3) not have made a valid police stop.

For "no probable cause of further criminal activity" to be found, the person has to be completely free of suspicion of anything. I've had probable cause found in cases where the driver was "acting nervous, or shifty" despite that being a pretty damn normal reaction when cops stop you in traffic.

For "an invalid stop" to have occurred, you need to have no traffic violation for which to stop the person. Or, you need specific information from a known informant to stop a vehicle. Even then, you can get away with a casual questioning of a person (though probably not in their car unless they are stopped on the side of the road per the Rescuer obligation or wtf it's called) if you act in good faith, as long as you are not obstructing their egress and they are free to leave at any time.

In other words, your example is laughingly retarded, because for such a weapon to be thrown out, the police would have had to search a vehicle without any suspicion of any further wrongdoing beyond a traffic violation.

In other words, you want a police state.

[Atlanteax]

Not to derail this thread on a side-tangent, but I was thinking more along the lines of the murder weapon would had likely never been found had the criminal had sufficient time to get away and dispose of it, and it was the happenstance stop that lucked into acquiring it ("hey, this guy looks suspicious").

[TheEschaton]

Then I take away my italics. You literally want a police state where people can be stopped for being suspicious looking.

If you don't see how that's completely antithetical to what our country is founded on, you should (oh man, I've been itching to use this one) GTFO of our country, man.

[Atlanteax]

Do you have some secret evidence that the gun kept Zimmerman alive somehow?

Seriously--this guy's life is ruined, it's a no-brainer that he regrets everything he did that night. He and Casey Anthony should get acquainted in the special shack Florida puts its idiots that kill people but their police fuck up too badly to convict.

Actually, let's say 2-3 months from now, the investigation has been concluded, and all the evidence that exonerated Zimmerman was made public.

This could actually end up being an example of why it is good to be armed with a concealed gun permit (under the establishment that he would had been killed from traumatic brain injury had he not shot Trayvon).

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Then I take away my italics. You literally want a police state where people can be stopped for being suspicious looking.

If you don't see how that's completely antithetical to what our country is founded on, you should (oh man, I've been itching to use this one) GTFO of our country, man.

I suspect he's watched too many movies where the police officer has to "bend the rules" to break into a house or whatever on a hunch that they'll find something along the lines of a smoking gun to close the case where the evil genius is making a mockery of the system.

Think like... the movie Fracture.

[Jarvan]

You know what I find amazing in that article?



It's like everyone is lopping off that last sentence and just accepting it as fact that it's corroborated that Martin started the fight and followed him back to his truck.

So if no one saw the first punch, Zimmerman is guilty of Murder?

Man, I would just LOVE to be an accused in town if you wrote the laws. -sarcasm-

[Atlanteax]

Then I take away my italics. You literally want a police state where people can be stopped for being suspicious looking.

If you don't see how that's completely antithetical to what our country is founded on, you should (oh man, I've been itching to use this one) GTFO of our country, man.

No, I have faith in the individual members of law enforcement to sincerely follow their instincts regarding the people of the neighborhoods/districts that they work in when attempting to solve crimes.

I chalk up the 'zomg a police state' to irrational liberal fears.

[Menos]

No, I have faith in the individual members of law enforcement to sincerely follow their instincts regarding the people of the neighborhoods/districts that they work in when attempting to solve crimes.

I chalk up the 'zomg a police state' to irrational liberal fears.

I am almost surely one of the most conservative people you will ever converse with in your entire life. I am conservative like Dennis Kucinich is liberal. It is hard to get more reactionary than the first laws of our country, and what you want flies right in their face.

The thing is, people are still people, even when they are cops. There are more great cops than bad cops, just like there are more great people than bad people. But giving all the good cops a power that is at play in one out of a million cases while also having to give the bad cops that power which can be abused in every case is the worst bargain I can imagine.

If you doubt me, ask anyone who is African American in New York how well the stop and frisk power has been sincerely used to protect police as it was supposedly to be used for?

Edit to add: I used Kucinich because I feel he is intellectually honest in his liberalism and not just spouting the words. I do not really think everyone who says the liberal platitudes really mean them. I don't think anyone else has really been fighting the same fights since the name on the oval office got switched. You can put in anyone even more left in his place for my description of myself if you like.

[Ryvicke]

I am almost surely one of the most conservative people you will ever converse with in your entire life. I am conservative like Dennis Kucinich is liberal. It is hard to get more reactionary than the first laws of our country, and what you want flies right in their face.

The thing is, people are still people, even when they are cops. There are more great cops than bad cops, just like there are more great people than bad people. But giving all the good cops a power that is at play in one out of a million cases while also having to give the bad cops that power which can be abused in every case is the worst bargain I can imagine.

If you doubt me, ask anyone who is African American in New York how well the stop and frisk power has been sincerely used to protect police as it was supposedly to be used for?

Nice post

[Latrinsorm]

You are still operating under the assumption that having the gun was the problem. The gun does nothing that a physically strong person cannot do (kill people). Tools are not evil or bad, people are. Which ever of them attacked the other is the problem, not the means by which they did it (sidewalk or gun).I didn't say it was evil. I must insist that a gun belongs to a specific subset of tools: weapons. I believe you said you carry a gun, right? You don't do this because you might use it to build a table, or cut a seat belt. You do it to defend yourself (right?), which only makes sense with the possibility of shooting someone with it. If you went out of your way to start a conflict, as Zimmerman did, that's not defense any more, no matter how badly the conflict goes for you. Including a gun or any other weapon in that act makes it that much worse.
Except this isn't what happened. He didn't know he was being pursued by an armed man.I didn't say Martin knew. Zimmerman absolutely knew he was armed and untrained for pursuit, did it anyway, and someone died. The point of reckless endangerment is that he reasonably should have foreseen that possible outcome.

I'll bet you, PB, all the other gun people on this forum have gone their whole civilian lives without chasing after someone while carrying. It really hasn't been that hard to avoid, has it? It baffles me that this moron decides he's on Law and Order and you guys are defending him.

[Rinualdo]

Also, where was it said his nose was broken?



He had a bloody nose and lacs on his head which didn't require medical attention.

I believe the article said he was treated by the ambulance and went to the hospital the next day.

Not really sure how you qualify that to not being treated.

Also in response to your other thread, I believe witnesses and his statement show his head being slammed into the sidewalk. Not really sure how this could also translate to a neighbor's backyard, but I suppose we'll have to wait until the actual police report to know for sure.

[Rinualdo]

I'll bet you, PB, all the other gun people on this forum have gone their whole civilian lives without chasing after someone while carrying. It really hasn't been that hard to avoid, has it? It baffles me that this moron decides he's on Law and Order and you guys are defending him.

You can state he made a mistake when chasing, which he rectified when he stopped chasing.

By the way, you would lose that bet.

[Archigeek]

Zimmerman flew and Tyler knew!

[Rinualdo]

I fucking hate this thread.

Hey.. let's talk about Obama's gaffe with the Russian dude.. OBAMA IS PLANNING SOMETHING DEVIOUS!!!

I know. It's certainly time for some self evaluation.

[WRoss]

I'll bet you, PB, all the other gun people on this forum have gone their whole civilian lives without chasing after someone while carrying. It really hasn't been that hard to avoid, has it? It baffles me that this moron decides he's on Law and Order and you guys are defending him.

When I lived in Savannah, we had a guy break in and I ended up chasing him. I only went to my back porch. In hindsight, I should have just stopped after he left when I cocked the shotgun.