New witness saw Trayvon attack Zimmerman

[Ryvicke]

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn111/JTninja/Fail_Is_Strong.jpg

Are you just doing that thing where you start posting pics now?

Remember when Barack was all talking to Medvedev and he was like 'yo hit me up after the election and we'll talk missile defense.'

Fucking CONSPIRACY dude.

Socialism.

[Parkbandit]

Maybe he meant "These assholes always get away" and meant these's robbers/crooks/thieves/rogues or the like? That's how I read it.

If a police officer asks you to describe PB, wouldn't you say "old white guy"?

The 911 operator asked him to describe Trayvon. Notice how often in the media we get this:


Zimmerman: He looks black

as the beginning of the 911 conversation? If only we went up one more line.. we would get this:


Operator: Ok, and this guy is he white, black or Hispanic?

Zimmerman: He looks black.

[Tenlaar]

Don't forget the part where he couldn't tell at all when he first made the call!

[Ryvicke]

The 911 operator asked him to describe Trayvon. Notice how often in the media we get this:



as the beginning of the 911 conversation? If only we went up one more line.. we would get this:

Now you're just being misleading.


Zimmerman:

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]

Hey he figured out that Trayvon was "suspicious," "up to no good," and "on drugs or something." I wonder what led him to those conclusions.


911 dispatcher:

OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?

Zimmerman:

He looks black.

Oh right, that's why.


911 dispatcher:

Did you see what he was wearing?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]

911 dispatcher:

He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

Zimmerman:

Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]

911 dispatcher:

OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman:

That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher:

He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.[1:03]

911 dispatcher:

How old would you say he is?

Zimmerman:

He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.

911 dispatcher:

Late teens?

Zimmerman:

Uh, huh.

Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.

He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]

911 dispatcher:

Let me know if he does anything, OK?

Zimmerman:

OK.

911 dispatcher:

We’ve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.

Zimmerman:

OK.

These assholes. They always get away.

What assholes, George? Black teens with "something on their shirt" that look at you while you're in your car staring at them? Racism can certainly cloud judgement.

[Parkbandit]

I think you are projecting your obvious racist views here Ryvicke. There's nothing in the 911 call that makes him a racist.. and if you view it as racism, you might want to ask yourself why.

Hmm.. maybe that test you took is more right than I first thought...

[Back]

Zimmerman does not sound like a Hispanic name to me.

This thread may have seemed like this was a Trayvon vs. Zimmerman argument but I believe everyone involved ultimately only wanted truth and justice. When we start pointing the finger of blame at each other instead of focusing on the facts we head down the road of conflict and thats no good to nanyone.

All I've said from the beginning is that according to what I knew earlier this week I was baffled that Zimmerman was not arrested.

The most troubling thing I've seen this week are the attempts by people to paint Trayvon, a 17 year old young man in high school, in a negative light to somehow justify his having been murdered. Someone or group of people out there are preying on the irrational fears of other people in order to deceive them into acting in a fashion they want them to act. Everyone on every side of this needs to protect each other from those who would manipulate us for their own ends.

[TheEschaton]

Every video I've seen hasn't had an obvious cut on the back of his head like in those stills. Still, I did see the police officer looking at the back of his head, and then shaking his head no, after clearly being asked something by Zimmerman.

It also came out that this video was taken around 4 hours after the shooting, which seems like a ridiculously long time to get an admitted shooter to the station for questioning, but might also go to the fact that maybe he was allowed to change his clothes, and/or get cleaned up enough to have barely-visible wounds. I still maintain he doesn't seem like he was seriously wounded, definitely not to the point where "he feared for his life." According to one witness, he was up and walking around right after he shot Martin.

I'm also surprised that no one has picked up on the fact that Zimmerman's father is a retired judge, and knew the state attorney who refused to apply for the arrest warrant (the former I read, the latter I just heard in this thread).

[Parkbandit]

Zimmerman does not sound like a Hispanic name to me.

Please tell me you know how last names work in this country..... holy shit.

[Warriorbird]

Every video I've seen hasn't had an obvious cut on the back of his head like in those stills. Still, I did see the police officer looking at the back of his head, and then shaking his head no, after clearly being asked something by Zimmerman.

It also came out that this video was taken around 4 hours after the shooting, which seems like a ridiculously long time to get an admitted shooter to the station for questioning, but might also go to the fact that maybe he was allowed to change his clothes, and/or get cleaned up enough to have barely-visible wounds. I still maintain he doesn't seem like he was seriously wounded, definitely not to the point where "he feared for his life." According to one witness, he was up and walking around right after he shot Martin.

I'm also surprised that no one has picked up on the fact that Zimmerman's father is a retired judge, and knew the state attorney who refused to apply for the arrest warrant (the former I read, the latter I just heard in this thread).

Him being allowed to get cleaned up would be mindboggling.

[Tgo01]

Him being allowed to get cleaned up would be mindboggling.

Why?

[Latrinsorm]

Now we have the term "white Hispanic" to add to our daily vocabulary.We went over this a little earlier, but were people honestly unfamiliar with the difference between race and ethnicity before this episode? I figured Jarvan was just feigning ignorance for effect.

[TheEschaton]

Well, allowing to be cleaned up without pictures taken at the scene and bagging his clothes would be mind-boggling.

Where those are would be anyone's guess. Even a statement saying "Hey, we got pictures at the scene, and we have the clothes he was wearing in evidence," would just go a long way. And if they had those things, I'd imagine they'd say that.

I think this is quickly turning more into a police corruption case which happened to have a black victim (IE, it woulda been the same "bungling" if he shot some white kid, though the question remains whether he'd've followed and reported a white kid in a hoodie).

[Parkbandit]

Well, allowing to be cleaned up without pictures taken at the scene and bagging his clothes would be mind-boggling.

Where those are would be anyone's guess. Even a statement saying "Hey, we got pictures at the scene, and we have the clothes he was wearing in evidence," would just go a long way. And if they had those things, I'd imagine they'd say that.

I think this is quickly turning more into a police corruption case which happened to have a black victim (IE, it woulda been the same "bungling" if he shot some white kid, though the question remains whether he'd've followed and reported a white kid in a hoodie).

Holy shit.. we actually agree that this had nothing to do with racism?

I'm seriously shocked... coming from you.

And until more evidence is given to us.. I can't argue with your assessment that the police bungled this investigation... because they very well may have.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Why?

Forensic evidence.

They would be able to tell by blood splatters how close Trayvon was when Zimmerman shot him, the trajectory he shot at, the condition of his clothing, handmarks and prints on him whether and how Trayvon had been touching him, etc.. a lot that's pretty easily wiped away by allowing him to clean up first. Most victims and suspects of violent assault/rape are photographed head to toe as-is and combed over by a doctor (with swabs of body fluids taken for verification and so forth) before they're cleared to shower and change. Regardless of Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, that is an epic fuck-up on the police's part to not document Zimmerman's entire condition photographically.

[Tgo01]

Forensic evidence.

They would be able to tell by blood splatters how close Trayvon was when Zimmerman shot him, the trajectory he shot at, the condition of his clothing, handmarks and prints on him whether and how Trayvon had been touching him, etc.. a lot that's pretty easily wiped away by allowing him to clean up first. Most victims and suspects of violent assault/rape are photographed head to toe as-is and combed over by a doctor before they're cleared to shower and change. Regardless of Zimmerman's guilt or innocence, that is an epic fuck-up on the police's part to not document Zimmerman's entire condition photographically.

I get all that. I just mean I can't imagine they would expect him to be wearing blood stained clothes 4 hours later without allowing him to wash up or anything first. That is of course assuming there was blood stained clothes. It does seem like a pretty massive fuck up on the cops part if they didn't document this stuff first.

Of course that then begs the question, who suffers because of the fuck up? Usually when the police fuck up then it's too bad for the prosecution and a boon for the defense. However in this case it's being claimed the police are covering for Zimmerman.

Let's just say for a minute Zimmerman is telling the truth but the cops decided to destroy the evidence just in case, how does this case proceed against Zimmerman?

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I get all that. I just mean I can't imagine they would expect him to be wearing blood stained clothes 4 hours later without allowing him to wash up or anything first. That is of course assuming there was blood stained clothes. It does seem like a pretty massive fuck up on the cops part if they didn't document this stuff first.

Of course that then begs the question, who suffers because of the fuck up? Usually when the police fuck up then it's too bad for the prosecution and a boon for the defense. However in this case it's being claimed the police are covering for Zimmerman.

Let's just say for a minute Zimmerman is telling the truth but the cops decided to destroy the evidence just in case, how does this case proceed against Zimmerman?

If he was being attacked by Trayvon, there would be bloodstained clothes. An attack implies Trayvon was close range when he shot him, so if there weren't bloodstained clothes, it pokes a lot of wholes in Zimmerman's defense.

That being said, I'm not sure what will happen if they didn't document, or worse, destroyed evidence (regardless of if it helps Zimmerman, or Trayvon's family). From what I've been reading on the case though, this is already starting to be handled as a case of police corruption. I'm not sure how they'll proceed.

[Atlanteax]

If he was being attacked by Trayvon, there would be bloodstained clothes. An attack implies Trayvon was close range when he shot him, so if there weren't bloodstained clothes, it pokes a lot of wholes in Zimmerman's defense.

That being said, I'm not sure what will happen if they didn't document, or worse, destroyed evidence (regardless of if it helps Zimmerman, or Trayvon's family). From what I've been reading on the case though, this is already starting to be handled as a case of police corruption. I'm not sure how they'll proceed.

It is possible that if he was punched and knocked down, that all of the bleeding would had been 'contained' to his face/head (which was subsequently cleaned up by the paramedics).

If he was standing up and fighting, then blood from head wounds would drip down onto clothes, yes.

[Delias]

It is possible that if he was punched and knocked down, that all of the bleeding would had been 'contained' to his face/head (which was subsequently cleaned up by the paramedics).

If he was standing up and fighting, then blood from head wounds would drip down onto clothes, yes.

I'm not an expert on gunshot wounds, but presumeably if someone is on top of you and you put a hole in them, they would bleed on you, gravity being what it is and all.

[Jarvan]

We went over this a little earlier, but were people honestly unfamiliar with the difference between race and ethnicity before this episode? I figured Jarvan was just feigning ignorance for effect.

Yes, lets not forget that Latrine has stated that Hispanic is not a race. So all Hispanics have to decide if they are white, black, Asian, American Indian, or little green men.

Remember.. all that matters is Zimmerman's race is WHITE. It's a white man, for future reference, all the Mexican gangs, they are white gangs. Finally, Whites have bad ass gang members.

So next time a Hispanic kills someone, I better damn well see, White man kills so and so.

[Jarvan]

If he was being attacked by Trayvon, there would be bloodstained clothes. An attack implies Trayvon was close range when he shot him, so if there weren't bloodstained clothes, it pokes a lot of wholes in Zimmerman's defense.

That being said, I'm not sure what will happen if they didn't document, or worse, destroyed evidence (regardless of if it helps Zimmerman, or Trayvon's family). From what I've been reading on the case though, this is already starting to be handled as a case of police corruption. I'm not sure how they'll proceed.

One thing, someone stated they wrestled for the gun, if Zimmerman managed to keep the gun and turned it on Martin, and Martin had been attacking him, he could have felt justified in shooting, in which case it may not have been point blank, nor directly at him.

Now all this is speculation, but if Martin was directly onto of Zimmerman, I would expect to see blood, and if the police at the scene wouldn't have documented it for whatever reason, then that's seriously fucked up. it would also mean that at least 4-5 officers would have to have been in on the cover up. The 1-2 squad cars I am sure were sent first, then the detectives that would have come out. Then any fire men or paramedics that cleaned him up.

Your starting to get into world class conspiracy here. Now we are up to maybe 10 people who should have seen Zimmerman at the scene bloody or bruised, and EVERY one of them would have seen it, and kept silent.

Now, if you can claim that it's not only likely but apparent that all those people were in on a cover up, or lied about evidence ( police claimed he WAS wounded ) and they ALL stayed silent, then this is a world class conspiracy, and every single person on scene needs to be terminated and arrested.

[Warriorbird]

One thing, someone stated they wrestled for the gun, if Zimmerman managed to keep the gun and turned it on Martin, and Martin had been attacking him, he could have felt justified in shooting, in which case it may not have been point blank, nor directly at him.

Now all this is speculation, but if Martin was directly onto of Zimmerman, I would expect to see blood, and if the police at the scene wouldn't have documented it for whatever reason, then that's seriously fucked up. it would also mean that at least 4-5 officers would have to have been in on the cover up. The 1-2 squad cars I am sure were sent first, then the detectives that would have come out. Then any fire men or paramedics that cleaned him up.

Your starting to get into world class conspiracy here. Now we are up to maybe 10 people who should have seen Zimmerman at the scene bloody or bruised, and EVERY one of them would have seen it, and kept silent.

Now, if you can claim that it's not only likely but apparent that all those people were in on a cover up, or lied about evidence ( police claimed he WAS wounded ) and they ALL stayed silent, then this is a world class conspiracy, and every single person on scene needs to be terminated and arrested.

The lead detective wanted to charge manslaughter. He was overruled.

[Jarvan]

The lead detective wanted to charge manslaughter. He was overruled.

Yes, and has he come out stating that Zimmerman wasn't hurt, had no bloodstains, or Martin was shot while down on the ground from above?

If this guy wanted to charge him, and any of those things were true, there would have been a "leak" by now.

[Warriorbird]

Yes, and has he come out stating that Zimmerman wasn't hurt, had no bloodstains, or Martin was shot while down on the ground from above?

If this guy wanted to charge him, and any of those things were true, there would have been a "leak" by now.

Given the Fed descent that's probably going on there I'm not sure. There's supposition all over the place. He might be the one who sent out the request.

[Tenlaar]

Most victims and suspects of violent assault/rape are photographed head to toe as-is and combed over by a doctor (with swabs of body fluids taken for verification and so forth) before they're cleared to shower and change

Just personal experience here, of course, but about 6 years ago I was jumped by a guy with a metal pipe. Split my head open and then broke my wrist when I was taking the pipe from him. Half an hour after calling 911 an ambulance showed up, decided I didn't have a concussion, and told me I should probably go to the emergency room that night or the next day. That was all.

And it's not like it wasn't anything, I ended up getting about 20 staples in my head. They didn't even take a picture of my head at the hospital until I told them to. Obviously nobody died in my case, but it was certainly a violent assault, and nobody seemed to give two shits. And people are the same everywhere.

Anybody else been assaulted before? Now I'm curious what kind of treatment others got.

[TheEschaton]

I've worked with assaulted people before, and again, not taking pictures, especially when the attacker is claiming self-defense, is bad, if that's what happened here.

[Jarvan]

I agree, No pictures is a bad bad idea in any kind of assault case, and always in a case where someone dies.

We don't know for SURE there are no pictures, we just now that so far, no one has claimed that there are.

We do know the police claim there WAS damage to Zimmerman. Of course if it goes to trial, a good attorney should chew that up and spit it out.

Of course, it would be the DA going after the police in that case, not the Defense attorney. And while that's not impossible, certainly if the state or feds bring the case forward, but it's less likely to happen then if the defense goes after them.

Worst thing really.. if ultimately it is declared that it was self defense, AND stand your Ground. No trial, and no Possible Civil action. The law as written makes it impossible for a Civil action against him. The outrage over that will be almost as bad, if not worse, then what we are have now.

[AnticorRifling]

I think this is quickly turning more into a police corruption case which happened to have a black victim (IE, it woulda been the same "bungling" if he shot some white kid, though the question remains whether he'd've followed and reported a white kid in a hoodie).

You know who else wouldn't follow this if it was a white kid that got shot? The media.

[Ryvicke]

You know who else wouldn't follow this if it was a white kid that got shot? The media.

You know who would've if it was? The cops.

[Gelston]

You know who isn't? me.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Just personal experience here, of course, but about 6 years ago I was jumped by a guy with a metal pipe. Split my head open and then broke my wrist when I was taking the pipe from him. Half an hour after calling 911 an ambulance showed up, decided I didn't have a concussion, and told me I should probably go to the emergency room that night or the next day. That was all.

And it's not like it wasn't anything, I ended up getting about 20 staples in my head. They didn't even take a picture of my head at the hospital until I told them to. Obviously nobody died in my case, but it was certainly a violent assault, and nobody seemed to give two shits. And people are the same everywhere.

Anybody else been assaulted before? Now I'm curious what kind of treatment others got.

I was assaulted (not sexually) at 12 years old, and I was photographed and had a bunch of swabs and stuff taken. They even took my clothing as evidence and I had to get cleared by the doctor before I could shower.

Then again, there was a very strong push in my home town to find my attacker and he was found a week or so later.

Also, this is a case where you have the admitted shooter right there. They don't have to look for the suspect- Zimmerman did shoot Trayvon, the problem is the details that led to the shooting, which does make it slightly different than having just the victim to work off of.

[Gelston]

Cases with children are generally treated a lot more seriously. Once you get to adulthood, the world becomes a lot less sympathetic.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Cases with children are generally treated a lot more seriously. Once you get to adulthood, the world becomes a lot less sympathetic.

Techinically, Trayvon was still a child, but I get your point.

[Celephais]

Techinically, Trayvon was still a child, but I get your point.

He meant cases with white children.

[Latrinsorm]

Yes, lets not forget that Latrine has stated that Hispanic is not a race. So all Hispanics have to decide if they are white, black, Asian, American Indian, or little green men.Haven't you ever looked at a census? Check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnici ty) for a table, or just read "Persons whose ethnicity is identified as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race."
Remember.. all that matters is Zimmerman's race is WHITE. It's a white man, for future reference, all the Mexican gangs, they are white gangs. Finally, Whites have bad ass gang members.

So next time a Hispanic kills someone, I better damn well see, White man kills so and so.Like I said earlier, you seem to be the only here in an uproar on this issue. I'm not sure anyone else has mentioned it more than once.

You also seem to still be confused on the fundamental distinction being made. A Hispanic person is not necessarily white any more than a non-Hispanic person is. Think of ethnicity as east and west, race as north and south. If you go a mile east, you have no information on whether you've gone north or south, right? Same if you go a mile north: you could be east, you could be west, or you could have no information on it at all.
Anybody else been assaulted before? Now I'm curious what kind of treatment others got.To my knowledge I was not photographed. (The sudden expressions of interest on the police officers' faces after I mentioned my attackers were black was very disappointing, not least for being so cliché.) I was taken to the hospital for concussion as a precaution. It might have contributed that I wore glasses at the time that were broken, and my 20/800 vision no doubt made me look vacant and woozy.

[Delias]

Haven't you ever looked at a census? Check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnici ty) for a table, or just read "Persons whose ethnicity is identified as Hispanic or Latino may be of any race."Like I said earlier, you seem to be the only here in an uproar on this issue. I'm not sure anyone else has mentioned it more than once.

You also seem to still be confused on the fundamental distinction being made. A Hispanic person is not necessarily white any more than a non-Hispanic person is. Think of ethnicity as east and west, race as north and south. If you go a mile east, you have no information on whether you've gone north or south, right? Same if you go a mile north: you could be east, you could be west, or you could have no information on it at all.To my knowledge I was not photographed. (The sudden expressions of interest on the police officers' faces after I mentioned my attackers were black was very disappointing, not least for being so cliché.) I was taken to the hospital for concussion as a precaution. It might have contributed that I wore glasses at the time that were broken, and my 20/800 vision no doubt made me look vacant and woozy.

I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction between ethnicity and race, then. So far as I understand it, racially, we are all the same species. Ethnicity then would be a subgroup typically grouped by skin tone or other shared physical characteristics, yes? Or possibly by shared culture.

I don't get it. I think it is all part of a scheme to eventually declare every minority a different shade of white so that white people stop getting accused of racism.

Someone please explain to me, clearly and with as little name calling as possible, what makes race and ethnicity different.

My ancestry is primarily bohemian with danish, swedish, and german with a little bit of black shortly after the civil war. Please define what my race is and what my ethnicity is.

[Gelston]

Techinically, Trayvon was still a child, but I get your point.

Hey, 17 is old enough to join the Military. That is an adult in my book!

[Tgo01]

I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction between ethnicity and race, then. So far as I understand it, racially, we are all the same species. Ethnicity then would be a subgroup typically grouped by skin tone or other shared physical characteristics, yes? Or possibly by shared culture.

Race is usually considered to be something you have no control over. You can't help being white, it's just who you are.

Ethnicity is something people make a conscious effort to identify with. "Hey look at me I speak Spanish and steal jobs therefore I identify with other people who speak Spanish and steal jobs." If you automatically thought I was referring to Hispanics/Latinos you are racist!

[Gelston]

Ethnicity is heritage and culture, which transcends race. You have a slight measure of control over it.

[Delias]

Ethnicity is heritage and culture, which transcends race. You have a slight measure of control over it.

I see. The world is even more retarded than I initially thought.
From now on I am going to participate in chinese new year. I assume this will make me good at math.

[Ryvicke]

There is no absolute rule on this. I had this discussion with jews like a million fucking times. Every person in Israel believes fully that there is a Jewish race, and within that race there are ethnicities, like ashkenazi or sephardic jews. People define race and ethnicity any way they want at different points in history and today, it's all fluid.

The argument here is just dark-skinned prejudice by those with light skin. It doesn't need a bunch else to work as a headline.

The much more interesting conversation is, and will always be, gun control.

[Delias]

There is no absolute rule on this. I had this discussion with jews like a million fucking times. Every person in Israel believes fully that there is a Jewish race, and within that race there are ethnicities, like ashkenazi or sephardic jews. People define race and ethnicity any way they want at different points in history and today, it's all fluid.

The argument here is just dark-skinned prejudice by those with light skin. It doesn't need a bunch else to work as a headline.

The much more interesting conversation is, and will always be, gun control.

Oh, I forgot, I might also be jewish. The jury is still out on that. It won't stop me from getting into the SAR though. My father's line has been here since we first started taking land from the indians, damnit. Basically, I don't have any culture- I am an american. Our culture is gunfire and hamburgers with krispy kreme buns. Then on my mother's side, you can go all the way back three whole generations, when they left bohemia and changed their names, essentially saying "fuck this" to the old world.

[Gelston]

I believe it is fully based on your maternal side.

[Gelston]

There is no absolute rule on this. I had this discussion with jews like a million fucking times. Every person in Israel believes fully that there is a Jewish race, and within that race there are ethnicities, like ashkenazi or sephardic jews. People define race and ethnicity any way they want at different points in history and today, it's all fluid.

The argument here is just dark-skinned prejudice by those with light skin. It doesn't need a bunch else to work as a headline.

The much more interesting conversation is, and will always be, gun control.

There are rules on it. I live in the US, so naturally, I follow the rules set forth by the US Census.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction between ethnicity and race, then. So far as I understand it, racially, we are all the same species. Ethnicity then would be a subgroup typically grouped by skin tone or other shared physical characteristics, yes? Or possibly by shared culture.

I don't get it. I think it is all part of a scheme to eventually declare every minority a different shade of white so that white people stop getting accused of racism.

Someone please explain to me, clearly and with as little name calling as possible, what makes race and ethnicity different.

My ancestry is primarily bohemian with danish, swedish, and german with a little bit of black shortly after the civil war. Please define what my race is and what my ethnicity is.The first thing to keep in mind with taxonomy is that it always becomes arbitrary at some level. The second thing is that there is no real genetic basis for the categories we describe as black and white, in the sense that there are black people who are more genetically similar to a certain group of white people and vice versa. Last thing, self-description and description by others does not necessarily agree.

Keeping those things in mind, the convention for race and ethnicity in America is that ethnicity refers to Hispanic or non-Hispanic, race refers to everything else. In this framework, you (generic) could refer to yourself as white Hispanic, black Hispanic, Asian Hispanic, etc., or any of the first terms with non-Hispanic. You (specific) could reasonably refer to yourself as white non-Hispanic.
I don't get it. I think it is all part of a scheme to eventually declare every minority a different shade of white so that white people stop getting accused of racism.You joke, but I remember reading something where a lot of people of Middle Eastern descent are officially classified as white, which caused some issues when they started being targeted by bigots.

[4a6c1]

boreal north scot phenotypic expression with some german east texas 1/16th of something and a scary derry boomboom familial (but not epithelial) REPRESENT.

what is this thread about again

[Jarvan]

The first thing to keep in mind with taxonomy is that it always becomes arbitrary at some level. The second thing is that there is no real genetic basis for the categories we describe as black and white, in the sense that there are black people who are more genetically similar to a certain group of white people and vice versa. Last thing, self-description and description by others does not necessarily agree.

Keeping those things in mind, the convention for race and ethnicity in America is that ethnicity refers to Hispanic or non-Hispanic, race refers to everything else. In this framework, you (generic) could refer to yourself as white Hispanic, black Hispanic, Asian Hispanic, etc., or any of the first terms with non-Hispanic. You (specific) could reasonably refer to yourself as white non-Hispanic.You joke, but I remember reading something where a lot of people of Middle Eastern descent are officially classified as white, which caused some issues when they started being targeted by bigots.

So then an African American would be of African Race, and American Ethnicity.

Also, I have never heard of anyone calling themself anything other then Latino or Hispanic, but that's just me. Also, just so you know, I did the Census in 2010, I didn't agree with it then, NOR did ANY Hispanic that answered the questions while I was there -I was a supervisor, not an enumerator- When asked what race they were, they all said Hispanic.

So I guess they don't know they are white, black, asian.. etc etc etc..

Also, there have been other people mentioning this. My main hangup is that people like you and others.. and the real racists, are the ones hung up on White man kills black kid. I have NEVER seen a headline where the media has EVER referred to a Hispanic or Latino as White before this. I'd love for you to find one to prove that the sudden change in tactic is NOT just a way to push racism.

[Tenlaar]

I have NEVER seen a headline where the media has EVER referred to a Hispanic or Latino as White before this.

Neither have I. In fact, a friend of mine would bitch at you for even calling him Hispanic. You might have trouble understanding it, but he would say "I'm Puerto Rican, damnit!"

[Jarvan]

Neither have I. In fact, a friend of mine would bitch at you for even calling him Hispanic. You might have trouble understanding it, but he would say "I'm Puerto Rican, damnit!"

Yeah, I have some Mexican and PR friends, and none of them consider themselves Latino or Hispanic, but Mexican and PR. If I called one of them white, he would deck me, and he is Whiter then I am! - he hates the sun -

[Latrinsorm]

So then an African American would be of African Race, and American Ethnicity.No. In this framework, the only choices for ethnicity are Hispanic and non-Hispanic. Depending on the particular African American, either could apply. For a variety of reasons, "African" makes a poor choice for a racial term, but that is a secondary concern.
Also, I have never heard of anyone calling themself anything other then Latino or Hispanic, but that's just me. Also, just so you know, I did the Census in 2010, I didn't agree with it then, NOR did ANY Hispanic that answered the questions while I was there -I was a supervisor, not an enumerator- When asked what race they were, they all said Hispanic.

So I guess they don't know they are white, black, asian.. etc etc etc..It doesn't bother me if you disagree with it, I just think it's unsporting for you to know about it, pretend not to, and try and make it look like I'm the one declaring it.
Also, there have been other people mentioning this. My main hangup is that people like you and others.. and the real racists, are the ones hung up on White man kills black kid. I have NEVER seen a headline where the media has EVER referred to a Hispanic or Latino as White before this. I'd love for you to find one to prove that the sudden change in tactic is NOT just a way to push racism.How can I be hung up on it if I've hardly ever (or possibly never) mentioned it?

Like I said the first time you brought this up: it could be a conspiracy, or you could be reading too much into it. There are plenty of people who fumble around with the "proper" terms for race, not out of ulterior motives but out of honest, good-intentioned confusion. The first time a newspaper used "black" in a headline instead of "Negro" may have been in a story that was unflattering towards a white party. Given how news media traditionally focuses on negative stories, isn't it conceivable that it could just be a coincidence?

[Back]

Hispanics from Central and South America fall into two categories. European Spanish and or Indigenous West Indian. The Spanish language is European originating from Latin.

[Gelston]

http://4.asset.soup.io/asset/3012/7028_66dd.jpeg

[Back]

Not as obvious to some people as others. That should be obvious in and of itself. Obviously.

[Gelston]

Oh, I didn't realize we had people on this board who thought Spanish was a language created in the Americas. May bad!

[Jarvan]

No. In this framework, the only choices for ethnicity are Hispanic and non-Hispanic. Depending on the particular African American, either could apply. For a variety of reasons, "African" makes a poor choice for a racial term, but that is a secondary concern.It doesn't bother me if you disagree with it, I just think it's unsporting for you to know about it, pretend not to, and try and make it look like I'm the one declaring it.How can I be hung up on it if I've hardly ever (or possibly never) mentioned it?

Like I said the first time you brought this up: it could be a conspiracy, or you could be reading too much into it. There are plenty of people who fumble around with the "proper" terms for race, not out of ulterior motives but out of honest, good-intentioned confusion. The first time a newspaper used "black" in a headline instead of "Negro" may have been in a story that was unflattering towards a white party. Given how news media traditionally focuses on negative stories, isn't it conceivable that it could just be a coincidence?

As to your first point, you can't say Hispanic is the ONLY ethnicity. Otherwise there wouldn't even be the word ethnicity. So sorry, you fail again.

As to me knowing about it, To a degree yes. I "Knew" that the us Government on the Census didn't consider "Hispanic" as a race, and yet if you saw as many forms as I did, with "Hispanic" written in for race, you could feel the same way I do. That the Government is wrong.. OMG.. it is possible you know.

Face it Latrine, the only reason they are using White to describe this guy is White man kills unarmed black kid sounds MUCH better then Hispanic man shoots unarmed black kid. I mean.. the second statement probably happens 100 or more times a year.

Also, having somewhat followed the story since it began to be reported.. they didn't use WHITE till the civil rights asses began screaming hate crime. THEN it was not only prudent, but helpful to do so.

You think Spike Lee would have tweeted the address of a Hispanic man? Hell no, it sounds better to them if they say White. Plays into the narrative the Liberals in DC want.

I'll go out on a limb and make this statement now.. IF this case is not resolved,Zimmerman walks or Obama's polls are REALLY low, Obama and the DNC will be using it as their Race card for the election.. things like.. "This is what happens when Repubs can write the laws, we get dead Black kids"

Maybe Someone should tell all the Latinos and Hispanics that vote for the Dems that they have to pick black white or other. Maybe They will simply tell them they are Black, then give them Farming subsidies.

[Latrinsorm]

As to your first point, you can't say Hispanic is the ONLY ethnicity. Otherwise there wouldn't even be the word ethnicity. So sorry, you fail again.

As to me knowing about it, To a degree yes. I "Knew" that the us Government on the Census didn't consider "Hispanic" as a race, and yet if you saw as many forms as I did, with "Hispanic" written in for race, you could feel the same way I do. That the Government is wrong.. OMG.. it is possible you know.Your disagreeing with a system does not cause it to go out of existence. There is an internally consistent system where Hispanic and non-Hispanic are in fact the only choices for ethnicity. It is possible that what you agree with is not what everyone else in Florida agrees with. Hence, it is possible that the use of "white Hispanic" in this case is entirely innocuous.
Face it Latrine, the only reason they are using White to describe this guy is White man kills unarmed black kid sounds MUCH better then Hispanic man shoots unarmed black kid. I mean.. the second statement probably happens 100 or more times a year.

Also, having somewhat followed the story since it began to be reported.. they didn't use WHITE till the civil rights asses began screaming hate crime. THEN it was not only prudent, but helpful to do so.

You think Spike Lee would have tweeted the address of a Hispanic man? Hell no, it sounds better to them if they say White. Plays into the narrative the Liberals in DC want.

I'll go out on a limb and make this statement now.. IF this case is not resolved,Zimmerman walks or Obama's polls are REALLY low, Obama and the DNC will be using it as their Race card for the election.. things like.. "This is what happens when Repubs can write the laws, we get dead Black kids"

Maybe Someone should tell all the Latinos and Hispanics that vote for the Dems that they have to pick black white or other. Maybe They will simply tell them they are Black, then give them Farming subsidies.You just pooh-poohed the idea of a conspiracy of 10 people, yet you have no issue proposing an interstate conspiracy ranging from Florida media to "civil rights asses" to DC politicians to Spike Lee? I don't know, I think you're letting your visceral response to something cloud your judgment.

[Jarvan]

Your disagreeing with a system does not cause it to go out of existence. There is an internally consistent system where Hispanic and non-Hispanic are in fact the only choices for ethnicity. It is possible that what you agree with is not what everyone else in Florida agrees with. Hence, it is possible that the use of "white Hispanic" in this case is entirely innocuous.


ONLY in the U.S. Is there ONE Ethnicity, Other Countries have other methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

Ethnicity usually refers to collectives of related groups, having more to do with morphology, specifically skin color, rather than political boundaries. The word "nationality" is more commonly used for this purpose (e.g. Italian, Mexican, French, Russian, Japanese, etc. are nationalities). Most prominently in the U.S., Latin American descended populations are grouped in a "Hispanic" or "Latino" ethnicity. The many previously designated Oriental ethnic groups are now classified as the Asian racial group for the census.

Europe has a large number of ethnic groups; Pan and Pfeil (2004) count 87 distinct "peoples of Europe", of which 33 form the majority population in at least one sovereign state, while the remaining 54 constitute ethnic minorities within every state they inhabit (although they may form local regional majorities within a sub-national entity). The total number of national minority populations in Europe is estimated at 105 million people, or 14% of 770 million Europeans.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but America, for whatever reason, tho most likely due to past race issues and not wanting to piss off people, decided on this use. Almost all the rest of the world does it differently.

Just cause some Asshole in D.C. decided something, doesn't make it true, hell, it's that kind of ahole that made Pluto a non-planet.



You just pooh-poohed the idea of a conspiracy of 10 people, yet you have no issue proposing an interstate conspiracy ranging from Florida media to "civil rights asses" to DC politicians to Spike Lee? I don't know, I think you're letting your visceral response to something cloud your judgment.

There is a huge difference between all 10 "cops" being racist and an entire faction in our government and society WANTING there to be racial divide and tensions. Libtards like yourself, along with those civil rights leaders NEED there to be racial divide to continue to justify their own existence. The Media of course likes racial tension, it sells papers and increases ratings. As we all have seen.

You fail again Latrine.

[4a6c1]

Just cause some Asshole in D.C. decided something, doesn't make it true, hell, it's that kind of ahole that made Pluto a non-planet.


INDEED.

[Jarvan]

This is a post where you attempt to generalize a George Bush voter as a "libtard" while claiming that liberals just want to "divide America."

It might suggest some self analysis is in order.

My self analysis was done awhile ago, I really don't like any of our Political Factions. The Left are to far left, Right to far right, the Middle pretend to be one or the other, when infact they are neither, but have to claim to be one to get elected.

We solidified into two groups politically, and there is no clear way to fix it. Yeah, I don't like Libtards, I also don't like bible thumping conservatives. Ron Paul's Fortress America doesn't appeal to me either. I like parts of all their ideals, but it's so very hard to do that kind of legislature now a days.

I have alot of pet peeves about the healthcare law, but the Biggest is.. it needs to include dental. How dental problems are not considered medical is beyond me. Dr's say alot of heart disease is attributed to bad teeth and gums.

But yes, Liberals do want to divide America on race and wealth. it helps with elections, as it rallies their bases. Conservatives do the same thing tho, generally with Religion and Abortion.

[Delias]

My self analysis was done awhile ago, I really don't like any of our Political Factions. The Left are to far left, Right to far right, the Middle pretend to be one or the other, when infact they are neither, but have to claim to be one to get elected.

We solidified into two groups politically, and there is no clear way to fix it. Yeah, I don't like Libtards, I also don't like bible thumping conservatives. Ron Paul's Fortress America doesn't appeal to me either. I like parts of all their ideals, but it's so very hard to do that kind of legislature now a days.

I have alot of pet peeves about the healthcare law, but the Biggest is.. it needs to include dental. How dental problems are not considered medical is beyond me. Dr's say alot of heart disease is attributed to bad teeth and gums.

But yes, Liberals do want to divide America on race and wealth. it helps with elections, as it rallies their bases. Conservatives do the same thing tho, generally with Religion and Abortion.

Plus once america is divided then the communists can swoop in and build a new, red nation.

[Jarvan]

Plus once america is divided then the communists can swoop in and build a new, red nation.

So you figured out Obama's plan?

[Menos]

Just more reporting of the facts without bias.

Link (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/trayvon-martin-nbc-news-editing-911-call-306359)

Quote of interest.


NBC News is being excoriated in some circles – with competitor Fox News Channel leading the charge – for selectively editing audio of the 911 call placed by George Zimmerman just before he killed Trayvon Martin.

In the NBC segment, Zimmerman says: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black."

------------------------------------------------
The full version, though, unfolds like this:
-----------------------------------------------

Zimmerman: “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.”

911 operator: "Okay. And this guy, is he white black or Hispanic?”

Zimmerman: “He looks black.”

[TheEschaton]

Errr, we've already had the full transcripts for awhile now, including the full quote. Grats on setting up the "OMG MEDIA BIAS" strawman though, but it doesn't detract from the argument.

[Menos]

Errr, we've already had the full transcripts for awhile now, including the full quote. Grats on setting up the "OMG MEDIA BIAS" strawman though, but it doesn't detract from the argument.

Wouldn't a strawman include setting up a false position to mock, rather than mocking actual issues?

[Jonty]

I read a couple of responses from people here saying something about the videos in the police station being several hours after the incident. I just saw a video stating that the time stamp on the video showed 19:52.

I found the actual footage here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oJjeUY6I-A

You can barely see the time stamp on that YouTube video. But it says 2012-02-26 19h52min.

[Jarvan]

I read a couple of responses from people here saying something about the videos in the police station being several hours after the incident. I just saw a video stating that the time stamp on the video showed 19:52.

I found the actual footage here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oJjeUY6I-A

You can barely see the time stamp on that YouTube video. But it says 2012-02-26 19h52min.

yeah, it's supposed to be roughly 45 min after the shooting.

There is so much "evidence" being leaked that support one side or the other, or sometimes both, that it isn't funny.

One said that the coroner said Martin had no bruises or cuts on his hands, indicating that he doesn't think he hit anyone at all. Also that there was no signs of damage to Martin other then the gunshot.

Another said 2 experts identified the voice on a 911 call as Martin crying for help and whimpering.

If the police are not lying, and Zimmerman was injured, he must have done it to himself then.

As for the crying and whimpering.. not sure where they got similar sounds from Martin to compare, or Zimmerman for that matter. Crying and Whimpering for me anyway, sounds alot different then my voice does.

Also, I haven't heard Martin's voice at all yet, so I can't comment as to which it is.

At this point, only thing I can think of, is there must be some seriously good evidence on Zimmerman's part to show it was still self defense. otherwise they would have arrested him by now. Since they are legally unable to arrest him if it was self defense.

[4a6c1]

At this point, only thing I can think of, is there must be some seriously good evidence on Zimmerman's part to show it was still self defense. otherwise they would have arrested him by now. Since they are legally unable to arrest him if it was self defense.

Yes. Something mysterious happened that we havent been able to determine yet and we just need to find out what it is because Zimmerman is a fucking self defense GOD.

......OR.....

Racism happened. And then it happened again. And then a police official admitting wrong and then stepping down. And then an outcry from every civil rights voice who ever mattered since LA circa 1992. And now denial that racism is a factor. Enter the federal government. Tada!

[Parkbandit]

Yes. Something mysterious happened that we havent been able to determine yet and we just need to find out what it is because Zimmerman is a fucking self defense GOD.

......OR.....

Racism happened. And then it happened again. And then a police official admitting wrong and then stepping down. And then an outcry from every civil rights voice who ever mattered since LA circa 1992. And now denial that racism is a factor. Enter the federal government. Tada!

What evidence do you have that this tragedy was race based? Is it just because a black person was involved, so then what happened must have been BECAUSE he was black?

[Warriorbird]

My self analysis was done awhile ago, I really don't like any of our Political Factions. The Left are to far left, Right to far right, the Middle pretend to be one or the other, when infact they are neither, but have to claim to be one to get elected.

We solidified into two groups politically, and there is no clear way to fix it. Yeah, I don't like Libtards, I also don't like bible thumping conservatives. Ron Paul's Fortress America doesn't appeal to me either. I like parts of all their ideals, but it's so very hard to do that kind of legislature now a days.

I have alot of pet peeves about the healthcare law, but the Biggest is.. it needs to include dental. How dental problems are not considered medical is beyond me. Dr's say alot of heart disease is attributed to bad teeth and gums.

But yes, Liberals do want to divide America on race and wealth. it helps with elections, as it rallies their bases. Conservatives do the same thing tho, generally with Religion and Abortion.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2012

http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2008

[Back]

What evidence do you have that this tragedy was race based? Is it just because a black person was involved, so then what happened must have been BECAUSE he was black?

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably isn't a duck. If you think it was a duck is it BECAUSE there was a duck involved?

Pretty sure no one has ever claimed you were the brightest bulb in the chandelier but grats for taking this to a whole other level of ignorant.

[Parkbandit]

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably isn't a duck. If you think it was a duck is it BECAUSE there was a duck involved?

Pretty sure no one has ever claimed you were the brightest bulb in the chandelier but grats for taking this to a whole other level of ignorant.

:rofl:

So.. you don't have any evidence it was race that caused this tragedy.. yet you cling to the notion simply because the victim was black. Even TheE.. one of the first to label things as racism agrees this confrontation probably had nothing to do with racism.

Backlash, you will always be the lowest common denominator in any conversation you ever have.

[Delias]

One said that the coroner said Martin had no bruises or cuts on his hands, indicating that he doesn't think he hit anyone at all. Also that there was no signs of damage to Martin other then the gunshot.


This is just out of pure curiosity- would parts of the body (i.e. the hands) continue to swell or bruises continue to form if the person died before the functions of the body that cause swelling and bruises to form could do their job?

It seems to me that they might, because I imagine it takes some time for all of the automatic functions of the body to shut down, but I would not be surprised to learn otherwise. Any of you a coroner?

[Tgo01]

Another said 2 experts identified the voice on a 911 call as Martin crying for help and whimpering.

I just read that too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D148255). It's certainly looking worse and worse for Zimmerman though.

If the screams for help on the 911 call were indeed Martin's, why was he screaming for well over a minute before Zimmerman shot him? The coroner already said there were no injuries on Martin at all other than the gunshot wound. Did Zimmerman pull out his gun and Martin started screaming then a minute later Zimmerman decided to shoot him?

Nothing adds up in this case.

EDIT: Thinking on it I guess it's possible Zimmerman pulled out his gun then from there it happened just as Zimmerman said, Martin jumped him because he thought he was going to shoot, Martin started screaming for help while trying to get the gun away from Zimmerman. That would certainly line up with the witness who said they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

[RichardCranium]

Hispanics are pretty racist.

[Back]

:rofl:

So.. you don't have any evidence it was race that caused this tragedy.. yet you cling to the notion simply because the victim was black. Even TheE.. one of the first to label things as racism agrees this confrontation probably had nothing to do with racism.

Backlash, you will always be the lowest common denominator in any conversation you ever have.

I was just pointing out how idiotic your statement was. That would be similar to saying "you think it is anti-semetic just BECAUSE there was a jew involved?" or "you think it was arson just BECAUSE the fire started from a matchbook and gas can?"

Of course its possible it's not. I never claimed to have any evidence to the contrary and I certainly do not expect that you have evidence to prove it isn't.

But you are the one trying to convince, not to mention berate, people that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck that anyone who thinks it just may be a duck are wildly jumping to conclusions.

Come on.

[Jarvan]

I just read that too (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/31/trayvon-martin-shooting-911-call-screams_n_1394224.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl1|sec1_lnk1%26pLid%3D148255). It's certainly looking worse and worse for Zimmerman though.

If the screams for help on the 911 call were indeed Martin's, why was he screaming for well over a minute before Zimmerman shot him? The coroner already said there were no injuries on Martin at all other than the gunshot wound. Did Zimmerman pull out his gun and Martin started screaming then a minute later Zimmerman decided to shoot him?

Nothing adds up in this case.

EDIT: Thinking on it I guess it's possible Zimmerman pulled out his gun then from there it happened just as Zimmerman said, Martin jumped him because he thought he was going to shoot, Martin started screaming for help while trying to get the gun away from Zimmerman. That would certainly line up with the witness who said they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

Of course reading a full article, the two experts say there is a 48% chance it is Zimmerman, 90% is needed to be certain. They HAVE no voice sample to match to Martin, so they couldn't.

Then an "expert" in Michigan stats it is Martin, cause his ears tell him so.

~~~~

"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Ed Primeau, an audio engineer and forensics expert from Michigan, told the Sentinel.

Primeau didn't use Owen’s CSI-style voice analysis software, but instead relied on audio enhancement and his own well-trained ear to compare the screams to Zimmerman's voice on a 911 call he made shortly before the killing.

"That's a young man screaming," Primeau said.

~~~~

[Jarvan]

Yes. Something mysterious happened that we havent been able to determine yet and we just need to find out what it is because Zimmerman is a fucking self defense GOD.

......OR.....

Racism happened. And then it happened again. And then a police official admitting wrong and then stepping down. And then an outcry from every civil rights voice who ever mattered since LA circa 1992. And now denial that racism is a factor. Enter the federal government. Tada!

You heard it here first people, this case is broken wide open.

Btw.. you do know Star wars is a racist movie. Darth Vader in all Black? The emperor only liking humans. Hell, they had to add in a black man to the rebellion in movie 3 or they would have been lynched. I am surprised your not protesting outside the Gorge Lucas Studios.

[RichardCranium]

Yes. Something mysterious happened that we havent been able to determine yet and we just need to find out what it is because Zimmerman is a fucking self defense GOD.

......OR.....

Racism happened. And then it happened again. And then a police official admitting wrong and then stepping down. And then an outcry from every civil rights voice who ever mattered since LA circa 1992. And now denial that racism is a factor. Enter the federal government. Tada!

You are the worst republican ever.

[Tgo01]

Of course reading a full article, the two experts say there is a 48% chance it is Zimmerman, 90% is needed to be certain. They HAVE no voice sample to match to Martin, so they couldn't.

It's just starting to look bad for Zimmerman. If that is Martin screaming for help then that means Zimmerman flat out lied about being the one calling for help, what else is he lying about then.

[Deathravin]

You heard it here first people, this case is broken wide open.

Btw.. you do know Star wars is a racist movie. Darth Vader in all Black? The emperor only liking humans. Hell, they had to add in a black man to the rebellion in movie 3 or they would have been lynched. I am surprised your not protesting outside the Gorge Lucas Studios.

Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgTuarwFm6s)

[Latrinsorm]

ONLY in the U.S. Is there ONE Ethnicity, Other Countries have other methods.Of course. When it comes to race/ethnicity, the United States is simply not comparable to other countries. The closest would be Canada, which proves my point, as it's not even a country. :)
Sorry to burst your bubble, but America, for whatever reason, tho most likely due to past race issues and not wanting to piss off people, decided on this use. Almost all the rest of the world does it differently.

Just cause some Asshole in D.C. decided something, doesn't make it true, hell, it's that kind of ahole that made Pluto a non-planet.I'll try once more. The point is not whether this system is "true" or "wrong", it is whether it exists at all. If it exists, people can use it even if Jarvan disagrees with it. You want to attribute nefarious motives to the use of the term "white Hispanic", but due to this system's existence there do not necessarily have to be. It's not like this is the first time someone has referred to race in a clumsy, awkward way.
There is a huge difference between all 10 "cops" being racist and an entire faction in our government and society WANTING there to be racial divide and tensions. Libtards like yourself, along with those civil rights leaders NEED there to be racial divide to continue to justify their own existence. The Media of course likes racial tension, it sells papers and increases ratings. As we all have seen.

You fail again Latrine.It seems like we're saying the same thing, then you reach the exact opposite conclusion. You've got me stumped.

[Jonty]

yeah, it's supposed to be roughly 45 min after the shooting.

Yeah, from what I've seen so far, looks like it was 40 minutes after Zimmerman's 911 ended (19:12) and 35 minutes after the first officer arrived at the scene (19:17). Seems like they decided it was self defense pretty quickly and felt there was absolutely no need to preserve any evidence on his person or belongings. I'm very curious as to what convinced them of this.



One said that the coroner said Martin had no bruises or cuts on his hands, indicating that he doesn't think he hit anyone at all. Also that there was no signs of damage to Martin other then the gunshot.

Have a link to the story? I've seen a similar story, but if was the mortician talking, not a medical examiner.

[Jonty]

Yes. Something mysterious happened that we havent been able to determine yet and we just need to find out what it is because Zimmerman is a fucking self defense GOD.

......OR.....

Racism happened. And then it happened again. And then a police official admitting wrong and then stepping down. And then an outcry from every civil rights voice who ever mattered since LA circa 1992. And now denial that racism is a factor. Enter the federal government. Tada!

I'd lean more toward daddy Zimmerman pulling some strings with the higher ups, than believing that 10+ officers on the scene being racist and making sure the whole PD covered it up.

[Jonty]

EDIT: Thinking on it I guess it's possible Zimmerman pulled out his gun then from there it happened just as Zimmerman said, Martin jumped him because he thought he was going to shoot, Martin started screaming for help while trying to get the gun away from Zimmerman. That would certainly line up with the witness who said they saw Martin on top of Zimmerman.

That's definitely a reasonable explanation based on what we've heard so far.

[Parkbandit]

I was just pointing out how idiotic your statement was. That would be similar to saying "you think it is anti-semetic just BECAUSE there was a jew involved?" or "you think it was arson just BECAUSE the fire started from a matchbook and gas can?"

I would ask you why the statement is idiotic.. but we both know you don't have a clue, you just want to be part of the conversation. Like I said, you are and always will be the L.C.D.



Of course its possible it's not. I never claimed to have any evidence to the contrary and I certainly do not expect that you have evidence to prove it isn't.

So, if I can translate:

Backlash: I don't have any evidence there was racism involved, but I know it was racism because there was a black victim.

PB: I don't have any evidence there was racism involved, so I won't automatically blame race as the cause.

Glad we agree.



But you are the one trying to convince, not to mention berate, people that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck that anyone who thinks it just may be a duck are wildly jumping to conclusions.

Come on.

But that's the thing.. you haven't illustrated how it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck or looks like a duck... you are just pointing out that there was a bird involved. I don't think an intelligent, rational person would automatically believe it's a duck.

[Parkbandit]

Yeah, from what I've seen so far, looks like it was 40 minutes after Zimmerman's 911 ended (19:12) and 35 minutes after the first officer arrived at the scene (19:17). Seems like they decided it was self defense pretty quickly and felt there was absolutely no need to preserve any evidence on his person or belongings. I'm very curious as to what convinced them of this.


You have a list of items that the police collected as evidence? I haven't seen what exactly they collected and what was not collected... in much the same way I don't know what photos they took and what photos they didn't take.. yet I hear people repeatedly jumping to the conclusion that the police missed stuff.

[Parkbandit]

I'd lean more toward daddy Zimmerman pulling some strings with the higher ups, than believing that 10+ officers on the scene being racist and making sure the whole PD covered it up.

Based upon the evidence leaked out so far, I would be inclined to agree.

[TheEschaton]

:rofl:

So.. you don't have any evidence it was race that caused this tragedy.. yet you cling to the notion simply because the victim was black. Even TheE.. one of the first to label things as racism agrees this confrontation probably had nothing to do with racism.

Backlash, you will always be the lowest common denominator in any conversation you ever have.

I said that the case was going to be more about police corruption, but in the same post I said the case might not exist at all if it was a white kid in a hoodie. Zimmerman's lack of arrest is the issue here - if he's arrested and charged, then there'll be the question of his motive behind following Martin.

[Jarvan]

Of course. When it comes to race/ethnicity, the United States is simply not comparable to other countries. The closest would be Canada, which proves my point, as it's not even a country. :)I'll try once more. The point is not whether this system is "true" or "wrong", it is whether it exists at all. If it exists, people can use it even if Jarvan disagrees with it. You want to attribute nefarious motives to the use of the term "white Hispanic", but due to this system's existence there do not necessarily have to be. It's not like this is the first time someone has referred to race in a clumsy, awkward way.It seems like we're saying the same thing, then you reach the exact opposite conclusion. You've got me stumped.

Like I said, Find ONE other use in the media Politics, or the world for pete's sake OTHER then the Census where they refer to someone as a White Hispanic.

They did so ONLY to promote racial tension, pure and simple. Trying to defend it as you are only proves your a bigoted racist. Since your a Libtard, this a given anyway, it's just you keep reinforcing it every time you talk.

As for opposite conclusions.. that happens all the time genius. The Earth is warming.... due to natural cycles. Compared to.. The Earth is warming due to people burning fossil fuels. Same statement, two opposite causes.

Also, where am I saying the same thing as you anyway? I'm saying the Media ( Liberal ) and people like you added race to the issue to incite the populace. It will also be a great way to try to play it come the fall.. "No No Latinos you should still vote Dem, HE wasn't Hispanic.. he was white." And of course They will play the whole Black president "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"... so he is saying that if he had a son, his son's facial features, body build, height, and shape would look like Trayvon's? Or just that he would be Black? if it's the first, he is the only person in this world that could make that deduction and not call it a lie, if the second, he is playing on the race... which he loves to do.

Lastly.. How come it's Trayvon.. first name.. against Zimmerman.. last name?
Ask yourself that, then try to come up with a reasonable answer.

[Bhaalizmo]

http://i.imgur.com/UIamH.jpg

[TheEschaton]

Like I said, Find ONE other use in the media Politics, or the world for pete's sake OTHER then the Census where they refer to someone as a White Hispanic.

They did so ONLY to promote racial tension, pure and simple. Trying to defend it as you are only proves your a bigoted racist. Since your a Libtard, this a given anyway, it's just you keep reinforcing it every time you talk.

As for opposite conclusions.. that happens all the time genius. The Earth is warming.... due to natural cycles. Compared to.. The Earth is warming due to people burning fossil fuels. Same statement, two opposite causes.

Also, where am I saying the same thing as you anyway? I'm saying the Media ( Liberal ) and people like you added race to the issue to incite the populace. It will also be a great way to try to play it come the fall.. "No No Latinos you should still vote Dem, HE wasn't Hispanic.. he was white." And of course They will play the whole Black president "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"... so he is saying that if he had a son, his son's facial features, body build, height, and shape would look like Trayvon's? Or just that he would be Black? if it's the first, he is the only person in this world that could make that deduction and not call it a lie, if the second, he is playing on the race... which he loves to do.

Lastly.. How come it's Trayvon.. first name.. against Zimmerman.. last name?
Ask yourself that, then try to come up with a reasonable answer.

I haven't really been following this side tangent mainly because Jarvan's a fucking idiot, but decades of sociology coined the term White Hispanic, not the government, not liberals, unless you want to argue that sociology is an invalid scientific pursuit but just a political puppet of the left wing. Calling Latrin a "racist bigot" because he recognizes people's different races and ethnicities is hilariously backwards. It's people who refuse to acknowledge 1) the role race and ethnicity play in society and 2) the specific experience of a racially and ethnically diverse person, who are more likely to be the racist bigots.

In other words, to paraphrase Heidegger, we see the world solely through our tinted glasses, colored by our experience, our perspective, our culture, and talk of an objective reality can only be filtered through those lenses.

But of course, maybe you're smarter than Martin Heidegger. Who knows. I highly doubt it, because almost everything you say is generally retarded.

[Jonty]

You have a list of items that the police collected as evidence? I haven't seen what exactly they collected and what was not collected... in much the same way I don't know what photos they took and what photos they didn't take.. yet I hear people repeatedly jumping to the conclusion that the police missed stuff.

No, I do not have a list of evidence that they collected. But I can see what they did not collect and how they interacted with what he had at the station.

The fact that he was at the station 35 minutes later and the officers were putting their hands all over his jacket and other clothing makes it seem that they did not consider his clothing as evidence. It seems like they were already convinced that it was clearly self-defense and there was no need to collect his clothing as evidence.

As I stated in the post that you quoted, I'm very curious as to what convinced them of this. Or more simply, I'm very curious as to why his clothing was handled the way that we saw in the video.

[Kuyuk]

April fools Trayvon, there WERE bullets in the gun!

[Jarvan]

I haven't really been following this side tangent mainly because Jarvan's a fucking idiot, but decades of sociology coined the term White Hispanic, not the government, not liberals, unless you want to argue that sociology is an invalid scientific pursuit but just a political puppet of the left wing. Calling Latrin a "racist bigot" because he recognizes people's different races and ethnicities is hilariously backwards. It's people who refuse to acknowledge 1) the role race and ethnicity play in society and 2) the specific experience of a racially and ethnically diverse person, who are more likely to be the racist bigots.

In other words, to paraphrase Heidegger, we see the world solely through our tinted glasses, colored by our experience, our perspective, our culture, and talk of an objective reality can only be filtered through those lenses.

But of course, maybe you're smarter than Martin Heidegger. Who knows. I highly doubt it, because almost everything you say is generally retarded.

For someone who claims to be a Lawyer, your not very bright. My complaint has been, and will always be, Why call him WHITE at this point, hell they don't even say a White Hispanic much if at all anymore. They went from a Hispanic male killed a black kid, to a White man killed a black kid cause it suits their purpose more.

I have NEVER heard the media, or a person refer to themself as a White Hispanic before this. All the people I know refer to themself as one or the other. granted, the Government likes to classify people thusly, but their reasons for doing so are not really the best of intentions. Also, they use the two distinctions interchangeably when it suits them.

As for me calling latrine a Racist and a Bigot, I hope you realize I am trying to draw the same distinction as people calling Zimmerman a racist. If you call me out for calling him such, then you have to call them out for calling Zimmerman such. Anyone saying this happened, cause he felt a Black man in his neighborhood is suspicious, is calling Zimmerman a racist.

Tho I DO personally feel that liberals do tend to be alot more racist then non-liberals. They have to apply race to everything.

[TheEschaton]

Last I checked, Hispanics can be racist against black people. If you knew anything about minorities, you would know lots of hispanic people hate black people, and vice versa.

As for how the media identified him, his last name is Zimmerman and he looks white. His father is white. He says he identifies as hispanic, but no one can really know that. Them calling him a white hispanic is distinguishing him from outright calling him Hispanic, which is often misused as a race in this country to indicate brown-ness. Racially, he is white.

Also, "applying race to everything" (even if it was true that liberals did this) isn't de facto racism. Racism can, and often is, ignoring race, and thus the history of how that race has been treated. "Considering race" isn't racism unless your consideration leads you to believe one race is superior to another.

[Tgo01]

Them calling him a white hispanic is distinguishing him from outright calling him Hispanic, which is often misused as a race in this country to indicate brown-ness. Racially, he is white.

What is the correct way to indicate brown-ness?

[TheEschaton]

"Terrorist" or "Dot head" work well, according to Wayne.

[Bhaalizmo]

"Terrorist" or "Dot head" work well, according to Wayne.

Dune coon?

[TheEschaton]

LOL, look at you, quoting Russel Peters, my Indian brother.

[Warriorbird]

LOL, look at you, quoting Russel Peters, my Indian brother.

Jarvan's in the thread. We're supposed to refer to him as Canadian!

[Kuyuk]

"Terrorist" or "Dot head" work well, according to Wayne.

I lol'd.

[thefarmer]

Yes. Something mysterious happened that we havent been able to determine yet and we just need to find out what it is because Zimmerman is a fucking self defense GOD.

......OR.....

Racism happened. And then it happened again. And then a police official admitting wrong and then stepping down. And then an outcry from every civil rights voice who ever mattered since LA circa 1992. And now denial that racism is a factor. Enter the federal government. Tada!

Linsanity happened.

[4a6c1]

Thank you google. I now know everything about everything.

http://t.qkme.me/3657fk.jpg

http://www.vincegolangco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Jeremy-Lin-Meme-New-York-Knicks-Basketball-Asian-American-Linsanity-17-jlin-linwin.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzcsu5S3Zv1qaz0iho1_400.jpg

[Gelston]

Linsanity happened.

I hate you.

[Menos]

Link right here. (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/george-zimmerman-enhanced-video-shows-injury-trayvon-martin-16053206)

Short version if you want to avoid the commercials, they found the same thing the much disparaged third party websites did, injuries visible on Zimmerman.

[Tgo01]

Link right here. (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/george-zimmerman-enhanced-video-shows-injury-trayvon-martin-16053206)

Short version if you want to avoid the commercials, they found the same thing the much disparaged third party websites did, injuries visible on Zimmerman.

Racist.

[Menos]

Racist.

No you're the racist! If I was a racist it would be obvious by my volunteering to mentor African American kids.

Seriously though, I notice some tempering of the narrative in some circles. This was yesterday in the NY Times, assuming they did not run it as an April Fools gag. This doesn't sound like the story I had been hearing. If anything it is starting to sound a lot less one sided.

Link here (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all)



However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6-foot-1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.

I think I need to work on my subtraction. Every time I try 170-150 I end up with something less than 100 pounds difference. Damn that racist math.

[Ibidmb]

I think the problem is they show the kid when he's 12 years old and not the 17 yr old who's 6'2" wearing a 'grill' giving the camera the finger.. the kid was a violent person who probably said something smart. The 'racial' outrage comes from people reading about this, and not seeing a of the two. George Zimmerman is in fact a "white" name a lot of people assume he's white. When he's not.

[Gelston]

He is half white. I wonder what he considers himself.

[Jonty]

Link right here. (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/george-zimmerman-enhanced-video-shows-injury-trayvon-martin-16053206)

Short version if you want to avoid the commercials, they found the same thing the much disparaged third party websites did, injuries visible on Zimmerman.

It's a shame that there is a stupid ABC banner covering his head in this "enhanced" video. I still saw nothing on his head during the very few moments and angles that were actually visible on the running video. The only time I saw these gashes were on the still shot they decided to show us.

I'd believe it if I was able to see it myself during the video. Their still shot combined with covering his head with the banner during the video does not convince me of anything.

[Jonty]

I think the problem is they show the kid when he's 12 years old and not the 17 yr old who's 6'2" wearing a 'grill' giving the camera the finger.. the kid was a violent person who probably said something smart. The 'racial' outrage comes from people reading about this, and not seeing a of the two. George Zimmerman is in fact a "white" name a lot of people assume he's white. When he's not.

And you know this how? Because he took a pic with a grill and he gave the middle finger to the camera? :rofl: Okay.... If anything, there is more pointing towards Zimmerman being a violent person. He has criminal history of resisting arrest, resisting arrest with violence, and domestic violence.

And what if he did say something "smart"? How would that be a good reason for either party to do whatever they did that night?

P.S. I do agree about the pic with the 12 year old kid be plastered everywhere, because it's miss leading and makes people think that a 28 year old man killed some little 12 year old looking kid.

[Warriorbird]

And you know this how? Because he took a pic with a grill and he gave the middle finger to the camera? :rofl: Okay.... If anything, there is more pointing towards Zimmerman being a violent person. He has criminal history of resisting arrest, resisting arrest with violence, and domestic violence.

And what if he did say something "smart"? How would that be a good reason for either party to do whatever they did that night?

P.S. I do agree about the pic with the 12 year old kid be plastered everywhere, because it's miss leading and makes people think that a 28 year old man killed some little 12 year old looking kid.

Middle finger pic wasn't even him.

[Menos]

Middle finger pic wasn't even him.

In a funny twist of fate, there is also a picture of the real Martin where he is giving the bird to the camera. I cannot link here on my iPhone, but if you scroll back to the slide show link from his myspace that I posted before, it is there.

[Parkbandit]

In a funny twist of fate, there is also a picture of the real Martin where he is giving the bird to the camera. I cannot link here on my iPhone, but if you scroll back to the slide show link from his myspace that I posted before, it is there.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3ZJaPUhhQXU/T3R9LE3GheI/AAAAAAAAFWI/9KCt3JnrK1Q/s1600/trayvonmartinfinger283x264.jpg

I don't think there's anything wrong with flipping the bird though.

[Parkbandit]

NBC News has launched an internal investigation into a story that ran on the "Today" show about the killing of Florida teenager, Trayvon Martin.

The Washington Post was the first to report news of the investigation.

The internal probe will investigate the editing completed on the audio recording of the 911 call George Zimmerman, the man who shot Martin to death, made to police minutes before he took action. The "Today" version of the call makes it sound as though Zimmerman volunteered the information that Martin was black. In actuality, the 911 officer asked if the "suspicious person" Zimmerman was calling about was "black, white or Hispanic."

News of Martin's death sparked a national outcry after it was reported that Zimmerman was not arrested nor thoroughly investigated after he shot Martin to death. The victim's family and activists have called for Zimmerman's arrest, claiming that Martin was racially profiled. Zimmerman, a self-appointed neighborhood watch volunteer, claimed he shot Martin in an act of self defense. Martin was walking home through a gated community in Sanford, Florida after visiting his father. He was carrying a bag of Skittles and iced tea.

The coverage of Martin's case has caused some conservative pundits to criticize the media for rushing to judgment about Zimmerman before necessary facts have surfaced. Ann Coulter compared George Zimmerman critics to the KKK, and Fox News pundit Liz Trotta criticized African American journalists who shared their personal reactions to news of Martin's death.

The omission of the 911 officer's question in "Today's" story paints a significantly different picture. NBC News told the Washington Post that they "launched an internal investigation into the editorial process surrounding this particular story."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/02/nbc-news-trayvon-martin-internal-investigation_n_1396442.html

If you haven't heard the NBC version, they basically spliced together parts of the 911 call together, giving the impression that he volunteered "I think he's black" information instead of what actually happened. There is no excuse for NBC to do this, except they wanted to create the impression that Zimmerman was a racist.

It was unbelievably blatant... even for NBC.

[4a6c1]

I can show you a platoon of dudes in ACUs giving the bird in a desert. It totally like, DEFINES THEM, that picture. You know dude? YOU KNOW?!

[Ibidmb]

And you know this how? Because he took a pic with a grill and he gave the middle finger to the camera? :rofl: Okay.... If anything, there is more pointing towards Zimmerman being a violent person. He has criminal history of resisting arrest, resisting arrest with violence, and domestic violence.

And what if he did say something "smart"? How would that be a good reason for either party to do whatever they did that night?

P.S. I do agree about the pic with the 12 year old kid be plastered everywhere, because it's miss leading and makes people think that a 28 year old man killed some little 12 year old looking kid.

The comment on his fb saying 'I didn't know you hit a bus driver'

[Tgo01]

The comment on his fb saying 'I didn't know you hit a bus driver'

I don't think that proves much. Maybe the person was replying to the wrong facebook page? Maybe he was joking? Maybe he heard wrong?

[Jonty]

The comment on his fb saying 'I didn't know you hit a bus driver'

Even though someone saying, "I didn't know you <insert anything>.", doesn't prove a thing, do you have a link to this? I think I saw someone else mention it in this thread. But I didn't actually see it on facebook or a news story.

[Menos]

Even though someone saying, "I didn't know you <insert anything>.", doesn't prove a thing, do you have a link to this? I think I saw someone else mention it in this thread. But I didn't actually see it on facebook or a news story.

It was in some story speculating on if Martin was a drug dealer (because of one of the other facebook posts about someone wanting to buy plant from him). A google search will probably bring it up. That is where I read about it anyway. I pass no judgments/ make no claims on the veracity of that story though. Some had said they thought the screen captures (account was closed after his death) might have been photo-shopped. Maybe more detailed reports are out with a definitive answer by now.

[Bhaalizmo]

http://i.imgur.com/W77Qc.jpg
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b19/Wolfnatas/cartoon371.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ERDix.gif

[Menos]

http://i.imgur.com/W77Qc.jpg
http://www.uploderx.net/dphrag/cartoon371.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ERDix.gif

I guess I shouldn't be shocked that the Internet has already produced satire on this. I will admit I laughed at the first one.

[Back]

I found the first one offensive and the second one funny.

I would say the first one was created by redneck in a trailer park but that would necessitate owning and knowing how to operate a computer.

[Menos]

I found the first one offensive and the second one funny.

I would say the first one was created by redneck in a trailer park but that would necessitate owning and knowing how to operate a computer.

You do understand that humor does not require you to believe it, right? Sort of like how I don't actuality have to think a priest a rabbi and a marine walk into a bar. You really need to pull your head out of whatever dark place you've shoved it.

[Back]

You do understand that humor does not require you to believe it, right? Sort of like how I don't actuality have to think a priest a rabbi and a marine walk into a bar. You really need to pull your head out of whatever dark place you've shoved it.

Its odd to me that you would take offense to my offense unless it somehow offended you and certainly its even more odd to me that you would be hostile towards me for being offended at something you did not create.

[Menos]

Remember those 46 calls to 9-1-1 in the year before the shooting that proved Zimmerman was a loony cop wannabe? Turns out those calls were from 2004 until present, more than seven years (Actually 2001, except the first call wasn't until 2004). Just another little typo that has no bearing on how the case was framed in the public eye.

Link for call history from the 911 office (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf)

Quotes from commentary on the case.

NY Times


Mr. Zimmerman lives in the predominantly white gated community where the shooting took place. A criminal justice major in college, he often patrolled the streets in his car. In the last 14 months, Mr. Zimmerman had made 46 calls to the police, officials said, reporting everything from alarms and disturbances to reckless driving and, most commonly, a “suspicious” person.


Police records over the last several years suggest a man who was quite familiar with 911 dispatchers; who seemed, somehow, to be always in the middle of things. In October 2003, for example, on perhaps his greatest day in civic vigilance, Mr. Zimmerman chased after and assisted in the capture of a man who had stolen two 13-inch TV/DVD players from an Albertsons.


Miami Herald


Shooter of Trayvon Martin a habitual caller to cops

At the focal point of a shooting scandal: a mild-mannered neighbor who fixated on crime and focused on young, black males.
...
But the killing of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin left the boy’s family and attorneys convinced that the volunteer developed a twisted sense of entitlement, one that gave him a false sense of authority to enforce the rule of law in his tiny gated community. Trayvon’s family’s attorneys believe that led to racial profiling and murder.
...
Zimmerman called police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011 to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents. Nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious.


Funny thing is, I do not see any corrections with those articles. The Atlantic admits the mistake but then says the reporting is accurate even if the facts are not.

Atlantic


From January 2011 until the night of the shooting, a period of roughly 13 months, Zimmerman called 911 for one reason or another an astounding 46 times. This official record alone, a sharp prosecutor might suggest to Seminole County grand jurors, indicates a pattern of unreasonable assertiveness (and perhaps even paranoia) on the part of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain. At a minimum, the calls reveal that Zimmerman took his job as a local busybody more seriously than most of us ever would or could. On January 29, 2012, for example, he called the cops on a group of kids just "playing in the street."

On Tuesday, Florida officials released audio and transcripts from six more of the Zimmerman tapes. Together, they portray a man on the lookout for "suspicious characters" -- a man out looking for trouble, an earnest prosecutor might say to grand jurors.

And the "correction"


We've just learned from the Sanford Police that there is evidently a typo on the first page of the neighborhood watch calls report they provided. The date range of Zimmerman's calls, they say, evidently is 2001-2012, not 2011-2012, which means his 46 calls came over a 10- to 11-year period -- roughly four calls per year -- and not four calls per month as the initial police statistics revealed. That certainly changes my early analysis on that issue -- but only slightly. The defense would say that 4 calls a year to dispatch is reasonable. Prosecutors would say that 46 calls is still an awful lot and that making all those calls year in and year out might have heightened Zimmerman's frustration/obsession with people he deemed "suspicious."

[Menos]

Its odd to me that you would take offense to my offense unless it somehow offended you and certainly its even more odd to me that you would be hostile towards me for being offended at something you did not create.

WTF?

[Atlanteax]

http://media.caglecartoons.com/media/cartoons/62/2012/04/02/109254_600.jpg

[AnticorRifling]

The important thing to remember here is the court of public opinion is more important than any actual legal court system and/or facts.

[Bhaalizmo]

I thought the important thing to remember was the color of the people involved.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm having a hard time believing some of the pictures of Trayvon. I mean... black people skiing? Wearing holister shirts? Wearing a baseball hat with the brim forward and straight?!

Clearly these are all shopped to make white people more sympathetic to him.

[Atlanteax]

I'm having a hard time believing some of the pictures of Trayvon. I mean... black people skiing? Wearing holister shirts? Wearing a baseball hat with the brim forward and straight?!

Clearly these are all shopped to make white people more sympathetic to him.

Just wait until there is a picture of him swimming...

[Bhaalizmo]

Took me a second, but HAH

[Atlanteax]

Thoughts about this? I noticed this article today:

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7764334/trayvon-martin-miami-heat-talk-talk-hoodies

http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/photo/2012/0328/grant_a_heat_hoodies_sl_640.jpg&w=640&h=360

(that is the Miami Heat team)

Writer is probably a bit biased, due to his NBC-like portrayal of 'facts' :

Martin, as the world now knows, was 17 and wearing a hoodie. He triggered the suspicion of the gunman, George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch coordinator who, in defiance of police orders, followed Martin for several blocks and shot him.

Anyhow, I thought this part of the article rang true:

I suspect this is what the NBA had hoped to avoid when it implemented its current dress policy, which saw the players dress almost exclusively in business-casual attire. That was in 2005, and the sport was awash in bagginess and ostentation and bling. To some eyes, it was awash in tough black men, too; in stereotypes.

[Latrinsorm]

You do understand that humor does not require you to believe it, right? Sort of like how I don't actuality have to think a priest a rabbi and a marine walk into a bar. You really need to pull your head out of whatever dark place you've shoved it.Jeffrey Ross once said there is no line, there is only funny and not funny.

Black people are apes. -> not funny
Pointless, gratuitous use of racial slurs. -> not funny
Poor grammar. -> not funny
Aspect ratio fail. -> not funny

It is possible to be bigoted and funny (c.f. Michael Scott). This does not mean that every incidence of bigotry is funny, or that every incidence of bigotry that attempts to be funny is funny, or that every incidence of bigotry that claims to attempt to be funny is funny. Sometimes bigotry is just bigotry.

[Latrinsorm]

Thoughts about this? I noticed this article today:Not only the facts of the situation, but I thought he exaggerated and over-interpreted the photograph itself to a degree. Still a good and interesting read, though.

[Menos]

Jeffrey Ross once said there is no line, there is only funny and not funny.

Black people are apes. -> not funny ever because it is over the line.
Pointless, gratuitous use of racial slurs. -> not funny because it is over the line when not said by one of the chosen race (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0353049/quotes?qt=qt0312207).
Poor grammar. -> not funny
Aspect ratio fail. -> not funny- Because it wasn't professionally done.



Ah, now I see. Just had to fill in the gaps.

[g++]

I think he should be arrested and formally charged and that this should go to trial for some form of manslaughter. Personally I don't think the use of force here was reasonable but I think a jury should decide.

[Androidpk]

I think he should be arrested and formally charged

Based off what?

[g++]

The fact that he shot an unarmed person and that person is now dead. The fact that the lead detective has presented a warrant for his arrest to the district attorney.

[Delias]

The fact that he shot an unarmed person and that person is now dead.

This is not always a crime. That is why we have the due process of law.

[Latrinsorm]

Ah, now I see. Just had to fill in the gaps.That's an odd interpretation considering I specifically suggested there is no line. I am disappointed.

[Androidpk]

The fact that he shot an unarmed person and that person is now dead. The fact that the lead detective has presented a warrant for his arrest to the district attorney.

Until the laws in florida are changed or adjusted there is no real legal ground for his arrest.

[g++]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013. 776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred. (2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer. (3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property. 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney’s fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.



This law does not in any way apply to this situation actually.

[Menos]

This law does not in any way apply to this situation actually.

Oddly enough, the police think it does. Not that they necessarily know the laws better than anyone else.



In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on
the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently
asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. Please understand that
since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what
information it can publicly release.

Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time
was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law
enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and
circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an
arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the
arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in
bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.

They go on to site the same sections of the law you have.

Link (http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf)

[g++]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57405716-504083/trayvon-martin-lead-investigator-wanted-george-zimmerman-arrested-the-night-of-the-fatal-shooting/

The shield from prosecution in the law is totally redundant. It essentially states if a person acted in self defense they cannot be prosecuted...duh. Obviously if your of the opinion the persons actions were not applicable to sections 1 or 2 of the law then they are not immune to prosecution. Whether the person is actually acting in self defense is the real issue and it should be decided by a jury not in a back room by the chief of police and district attorney.

[Menos]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57405716-504083/trayvon-martin-lead-investigator-wanted-george-zimmerman-arrested-the-night-of-the-fatal-shooting/

The shield from prosecution in the law is totally redundant. It essentially states if a person acted in self defense they cannot be prosecuted...duh. Obviously if your of the opinion the persons actions were not applicable to sections 1 or 2 of the law then they are not immune to prosecution. Whether the person is actually acting in self defense is the real issue and it should be decided by a jury not in a back room by the chief of police and district attorney.

So when the prosecutor thinks there is not enough evidence to support a conviction, he should be forced against his judgment to prosecute someone he does not think legally guilty, we should subject that person to all the costs of a court battle and the non-zero chance for a wrongful verdict (even if truly innocent) because of public opinion about the case?

Why not expand it? That repo company has my old car, they say they bought it from me but I say they stole it. If I can get ABC to run the story with edited sound clips and a 5 year old photo I say was last week of me in my car and all the people angry about repo guys are ready to listen to the story. Should they be charged with theft even if the DA says all the evidence is against me?

The bar is no longer in the legal system but is in the polls? Sounds like a big improvement to the system to me, mob rule is fun for the mob after all. :tumble:

[g++]

No obviously no one is forcing the prosecutor to do anything. I think the charges should be brought because an unarmed 17 year old was shot dead in the dark and the only evidence that it was self defense has been provided by the shooter. That fact alone is probable cause enough for a trial. If charges are not brought I will continue going about my life as usual. I posted my opinion since I am obviously not the prosecutor pretty much the same as everyone else here. The car analogy is horrendous.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Not to derail, but google Howard Morgan. I'm surprised more isn't being said about him.

[Back]

Zimmerman speaks, raises funds on new website




"I am the real George Zimmerman," declares the website, set up over the weekend.


"On Sunday February 26th, I was involved in a life altering event which led me to become the subject of intense media coverage. As a result of the incident and subsequent media coverage, I have been forced to leave my home, my school, my employer, my family and ultimately, my entire life. This website's sole purpose is to ensure my supporters they are receiving my full attention without any intermediaries."

Dude, you shot and killed an unarmed kid. That kid is dead. He does not even get to live a life you are trying to walk away from.

[Atlanteax]

(insert Face-palm @ Backlash)

Link where Back probably got the quote from: http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

'Life-altering event' is a pretty apt way of describing the incident for Zimmerman.

.

Also:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_c1


A neighbor and friend of George Zimmerman's said Tuesday on CNN that their neighborhood had suffered eight burglaries, all committed by young black men, in the 15 months prior to Trayvon Martin's shooting.

Police affirmed there was 8, and that 3 involved blacks males being implicated.

[Back]

(insert Face-palm @ Backlash)

Link where Back probably got the quote from: http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

'Life-altering event' is a pretty apt way of describing the incident for Zimmerman.

.

Also:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/10/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_c1



Police affirmed there was 8, and that 3 involved blacks males being implicated.

I'd call it even more "life-altering" for Trayvon Martin.

None of that justifies his death.

Edited because I just read your last comment more closely... 8 burglaries in which 3 were committed by black men? What possible reason do you have to point that out?

[Atlanteax]

Edited because I just read your last comment more closely... 8 burglaries in which 3 were committed by black men? What possible reason do you have to point that out?

Because it contributed to *why* Zimmerman considered Trayvon to be a "suspicious person" ?

Let's say your neighborhood had arson attacks on 5 homes. Police reports indicated that for 3 of them, there is a strong indications of a suspect that appeared to be Chinese.

You see a Chinese man on your street, who you have never seen before, and the neighborhood is predominantly White & Hispanic.

Surely you would have some suspicions regarding his motives?

(Disclaimer for those of knee-jerk reactions ... races mentioned are for illustrative purposes)

[Celephais]

Chinese are well known for being the cause of arson, so they can practice their fire drirrs.

[Atlanteax]

Chinese are well known for being the cause of arson, so they can practice their fire drirrs.

Some people just like to watch the world burn =P

[Back]

Because it contributed to *why* Zimmerman considered Trayvon to be a "suspicious person" ?

Let's say your neighborhood had arson attacks on 5 homes. Police reports indicated that for 3 of them, there is a strong indications of a suspect that appeared to be Chinese.

You see a Chinese man on your street, who you have never seen before, and the neighborhood is predominantly White & Hispanic.

Surely you would have some suspicions regarding his motives?

(Disclaimer for those of knee-jerk reactions ... races mentioned are for illustrative purposes)

So what race were the other four people? Following your logic wouldn't he be suspicious of people of that race? If he shot one who happened to be 17 years old and unarmed to death that would be ok?

Unbelievable.

[Androidpk]

Who cares. Black kid shot dead, shit probably happens multiple times everyday all over the states. Time to move on!

[Latrinsorm]

Because it contributed to *why* Zimmerman considered Trayvon to be a "suspicious person" ?

Let's say your neighborhood had arson attacks on 5 homes. Police reports indicated that for 3 of them, there is a strong indications of a suspect that appeared to be Chinese.

You see a Chinese man on your street, who you have never seen before, and the neighborhood is predominantly White & Hispanic.

Surely you would have some suspicions regarding his motives?

(Disclaimer for those of knee-jerk reactions ... races mentioned are for illustrative purposes)Yeah but if 3 of 8 were black, that means 5 of 8 weren't black, which in turn means he should be more suspicious of non-black people.

More importantly, no one is really upset that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin. People are upset with how he acted on that suspicion: engaging in unsanctioned armed pursuit. It was a stupid and reckless move, and someone died. When that happens we usually go after people for manslaughter.

[RichardCranium]

Zimmerman speaks, raises funds on new website



Dude, you shot and killed an unarmed kid in self-defense. That kid is dead. He does not even get to live a life you are trying to walk away from.

FTFY

[RichardCranium]

Yeah but if 3 of 8 were black, that means 5 of 8 weren't black, which in turn means he should be more suspicious of non-black people.

More importantly, no one is really upset that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin. People are upset with how he acted on that suspicion: engaging in unsanctioned armed pursuit. It was a stupid and reckless move, and someone died. When that happens we usually go after people for manslaughter.

It doesn't say that 5 of the 8 aren't black, it only affirms that 3 definitely are.

[Back]

FTFY

Zimmerman's word against a dead kid.


My own personal opinion. Sorry. I don't believe a man with a loaded gun had to shoot and kill a 17 year old to save his own life.

[Tgo01]

My own personal opinion. Sorry. I don't believe a man with a loaded gun had to shoot and kill a 17 year old to save his own life.

I don't understand what you're getting at. You think a loaded gun by itself is a useful weapon? Like he could have clubbed Martin over the head with it to save his life?

[Parkbandit]

My dad always said.. if you ever have to fire your gun at someone, make sure you shoot to kill.

Then there's only one story...

Too soon?

[AnticorRifling]

Zimmerman's word against a dead kid.


My own personal opinion. Sorry. I don't believe a man with a loaded gun had to shoot and kill a 17 year old to save his own life.

This is all flavors of stupid.

[Jarvan]

This is all flavors of stupid.

yeah.. cause you know... 17 Year old's are not capable of killing anyone. -start sarcasm- After all, I am not sure of you, but ~I~ have never heard of a 17 year old ever killing anyone. -end sarcasm-

[4a6c1]

The best statement I've heard concerning this issue so far, and the one that I think that best sums up the character of George Zimmerman:

"Without a gun, I don't see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself. The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations…"

Zimmerman could have left it to the professionals but the fact remains that he pursued and murdered. And this is okay with some people? Hmmm...

[Jarvan]

The best statement I've heard concerning this issue so far, and the one that I think that best sums up the character of George Zimmerman:

"Without a gun, I don't see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself. The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations…"

Zimmerman could have left it to the professionals but the fact remains that he pursued and murdered. And this is okay with some people? Hmmm...

And of course the person making this statement is George himself.

If not.. then the statement is meaningless.

Police call for backup cause that's procedure, and they are required to.

Pursued and Murdered.. Well.. martin Confronted and Attempted Murder. So I guess they are even, huh?

I have also decided every time I hear someone refer to Zimmerman as a Murderer, before he is even arrested, let alone convicted, I will refer to Martin as a Druggie, and thief. Since he was suspended for drugs, and likely had stolen items in his possession.

I think that's fair. And are we not all about fairness in this country?

[Parkbandit]

The best statement I've heard concerning this issue so far, and the one that I think that best sums up the character of George Zimmerman:

"Without a gun, I don't see Mr. Zimmerman approaching Trayvon by himself. The power-of-the-gun mentality had him unafraid to confront someone. Even police call for backup in similar situations…"

Zimmerman could have left it to the professionals but the fact remains that he pursued and murdered. And this is okay with some people? Hmmm...

You obviously don't understand the definition of "murder".

Is there any scenario where Zimmerman was justified in shooting Trayvon?

[4a6c1]

Is there any scenario where Zimmerman was justified in shooting Trayvon?

Of course. But Zimmerman acted outside the generally excepted escalation of force guidelines. Which Zimmerman would have been aware of but chose to disregard.

[Gelston]

None of us know the exact facts. Anything said here is speculation on what we have been told, which could also be lacking facts. Unless one of you work for the police department there.

[Ryvicke]

I haven't read this thread in awhile (gave up reading the disjointed thoughts of old white racists for lent) so I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but Zimmerman's attorneys dropping him cause he's failed to make any type of contact with them in days is hilarious.

Hey dude, I know unspeakable guilt can drive someone insane, but come on, if you found better lawyers just let your old ones know, it's not difficult. Who just ceases all contact altogether? Isn't his judge Dad advising him that that's possibly a bad idea?

If he starts to cry on the stand will they give him a comfort gun like little kids get comfort puppies?

[Celephais]

If he starts to cry on the stand will they give him a comfort gun like little kids get comfort puppies?

... I want a comfort gun AND a comfort puppy.

[Androidpk]

Hey dude, I know unspeakable guilt can drive someone insane, but come on, if you found better lawyers just let your old ones know, it's not difficult. Who just ceases all contact altogether? Isn't his judge Dad advising him that that's possibly a bad idea?

Oh boy..

[Parkbandit]

Of course. But Zimmerman acted outside the generally excepted escalation of force guidelines. Which Zimmerman would have been aware of but chose to disregard.

Give me one scenario that could have happened, given the FACTS we currently know, that Zimmerman would be justified to have shot Trayvon.

[Androidpk]

Give me one scenario that could have happened, given the FACTS we currently know, that Zimmerman would be justified to have shot Trayvon.

WMDs in Iraq.

[4a6c1]

Did somebody say fetch?

[Tgo01]

I haven't read this thread in awhile (gave up reading the disjointed thoughts of old white racists for lent) so I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but Zimmerman's attorneys dropping him cause he's failed to make any type of contact with them in days is hilarious.

It's alright, Back has been maintaining the nonsense quota in your absence.

[Latrinsorm]

You can't for sure prove that Martin wasn't hiding WMDs for Saddam. It's a known unknown.

[Bhaalizmo]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b19/Wolfnatas/trayvon254.jpg

Don't shoot the messenger. I just find this stuff.

[Androidpk]

You can be shot for being a poor messenger.

[Bhaalizmo]

You can be shot for being a poor messenger.

Technically I'm a good messenger. Message delivered. If you object to the content of the message talk to whoever wrote it.

[Androidpk]

I object to your [img] tag not working.

[Bhaalizmo]

I object to your tag not working.

Noted. Picfail fixt.


[IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b19/Wolfnatas/trayvon254.jpg

[Skeeter]

looks shopped.

[Bhaalizmo]

Wow, srsly? I thought it looked legit.

[Androidpk]

It's legit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/road-sign-hacked-to-slur-trayvon_n_1412688.html

[Celephais]

looks shopped.

The G's are slightly different, something often over looked in shopped letters, I'd vote legit.

[Celephais]

It's legit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/road-sign-hacked-to-slur-trayvon_n_1412688.html

Hah... "Hacked" followed by "Broke the lock"

You lazy, half-ass bully! Any asshole can pull a gun on somebody! You don't know the first thing about stealing a car! Boy! You need a role model!

[Androidpk]

I heard they hacked it with a shovel.

[Bhaalizmo]

Yeah those side of the road devices usually require a physical hack. Most of them aren't update-able remotely.

[Celephais]

Yeah those side of the road devices usually require a physical hack. Most of them aren't update-able remotely.

In person hacks are okay, like if you do it all john connor style.
http://i.imgur.com/4BYRV.jpg

But if you're, as PK said, Shovel hacking ... still awesome

[Atlanteax]

It's legit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/road-sign-hacked-to-slur-trayvon_n_1412688.html

Road Device hacks are more frequent than people think.

Honestly, not terribly surprised at this, given SE Michigan suburbia antagonism towards ghetto black-hole Detroit continuing to be a drain on the regional economy.

[Atlanteax]

Heh, Ryvicke and Back, you two will probably want to read this:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/03/update-5-trayvon-martin-the-latest-installments/#more-36992

Fits right in with Ryvicke's see-the-truth-behind-the-media mentality.

[Warriorbird]

Heh, Ryvicke and Back, you two will probably want to read this:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/03/update-5-trayvon-martin-the-latest-installments/#more-36992

Fits right in with Ryvicke's see-the-truth-behind-the-media mentality.

The link already suggests the deepest trustworthiness. An unimpeachable character, I daresay.

[Sean]

And of course the person making this statement is George himself.

If not.. then the statement is meaningless.

Police call for backup cause that's procedure, and they are required to.

Pursued and Murdered.. Well.. martin Confronted and Attempted Murder. So I guess they are even, huh?

I have also decided every time I hear someone refer to Zimmerman as a Murderer, before he is even arrested, let alone convicted, I will refer to Martin as a Druggie, and thief. Since he was suspended for drugs, and likely had stolen items in his possession.

I think that's fair. And are we not all about fairness in this country?

Would someone referring to him as a killer instead make you sleep better at night?

[Ryvicke]

Heh, Ryvicke and Back, you two will probably want to read this:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/04/03/update-5-trayvon-martin-the-latest-installments/#more-36992

Fits right in with Ryvicke's see-the-truth-behind-the-media mentality.

Truly a new low, your link has convinced me that Trayvon Martin indeed deserved to die. Seriously, Atlanteax, anyone that gets a hard-on from reading that shit is a sick motherfucker.

Turn off the cable news, read a fucking newspaper and lay off this garbage.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't know why but those websites with fixed background really annoy me.

[Atlanteax]

The link already suggests the deepest trustworthiness. An unimpeachable character, I daresay.

Yea, I was amused by the actual address.

"The Conservative Treehouse"

Makes you think of a clubhouse up in a tree, with a sign that says "bleeding heart hippies = KEEP OUT" ... heh.

But hey, obviously still more credible than anything that starts with moveon.org, right?

[Atlanteax]

Truly a new low, your link has convinced me that Trayvon Martin indeed deserved to die. Seriously, Atlanteax, anyone that gets a hard-on from reading that shit is a sick motherfucker.

Turn off the cable news, read a fucking newspaper and lay off this garbage.

Yea Yea... rage at the guy just trying to help you remove those blinders you got on.

In the meantime, for the record, I was provided this link by a moderate who thought it was an interesting perspective on the whole drama ... after reading it, I realized it was perfect for you.

[Ryvicke]

Yea Yea... rage at the guy just trying to help you remove those blinders you got on.

In the meantime, for the record, I was provided this link by a moderate who thought it was an interesting perspective on the whole drama ... after reading it, I realized it was perfect for you.

Which part of it did you think I would enjoy? The part where the writer (anonymously writing under the handle: "sundancecracker"--always a sign that you're about to encounter some solid journalism) masturbates himself to a video on "U-Tube" (I shit you not, the guy writes "U-Tube" about 80 times) of Trayvon hanging out while some guys fight? Something I can only assume "sundancecracker" is telling the truth about because the video has been removed (CONSPIRACY).

I really enjoyed the part where he told me that "tea and skittles" actually meant:


But did anyone stop to ask what he was talking about? Tea and Skittles is street lingo for “Marijuana and DXM, somtimes known as ecstasy“.

So is it more likely innocent childlike 17-year-old angelic Trayvon was coming back from a Snapple and Candy run. Or….

Is it more likely that a troubled teenager without supervision and a history of drug use, while serving a 10 day suspension for taking a baggie of pot and marijuana pipe to school, might have been talking about something else.

I mean--dude this is about 15,000 feverishly scrawled words mainly focused on convincing me that a dead 17-year-old was a violent, drug-using thug with separated morally-corrupt parents and George Zimmerman is being persecuted for doing the world a favor and offing him.

Do you by any chance believe in the Illuminati? I have a bunch of sites I think you're going to fucking love.

[Warriorbird]

Stop impugning Atlanteax. He's from Michigan. He'd never put up something racist about the Trayvon Martin case.

[Atlanteax]

Stop impugning Atlanteax. He's from Michigan. He'd never put up something racist about the Trayvon Martin case.

Yea!! I only put up stuff that clearly exonerates Zimmerman, who was being a good citizen for his neighborhood against calamitous youth that are without parental supervision.

[Jarvan]

Would someone referring to him as a killer instead make you sleep better at night?

Killer would be more accurate, if misleading. Since he did kill someone. Though using killer would generally be reserved for someone convicted of criminal activity. Unless you refer to all veterans in combat who may have killed someone as a Killer. Or a Police officer that shot and killed a suspect as a Killer.

Just accept the fact that assuming he is guilty and calling him names makes you an ass -maybe not you in particular Sean, since I am not sure if I saw you call him a Murderer or not- and be done with it.

Course, since it's free speech, call him whatever you like.


-hyperbole to prove my point-
But I have a sneaking suspicion that the reason the Martin family is so upset is that their drug dealing thief of a "kid" is gone and now they don't have their money maker.

[4a6c1]

Has anyone mentioned in this thread yet about the lawyers who abandoned him bragging to the media on live teevee about his having fled the state already?

Is Jarvan another ClydeR. I can never tell if he's the parody of a demagogue or actually uh...yeah.

Most importantly every time Ryvicke posts something about anything I get the giggles and they last until I glance over at my homework. Stupid homework.

Ok bye.

[Parkbandit]

Has anyone mentioned in this thread yet about the lawyers who abandoned him bragging to the media on live teevee about his having fled the state already?

When you say someone "fled the state", doesn't it mean an illegal act?

That's not the case here.

[Back]

Some people are saying don't be so quick to judge George Zimmerman. Then I see those same hypocrites trying desperately to paint Trayvon Martin in the worst light possible.

Its both embarrassing and shameful.

[Androidpk]

When you say someone "fled the state", doesn't it mean an illegal act?


No..

[4a6c1]

Washington post via CNN: "Zimmerman to be charged."

[Methais]

Regardless of how the facts end up playing out, this wouldn't even be news if either Trayvon wasn't black and/or if Zimmerman was black, or even something besides "white" Hispanic. If he was "black" hispanic or even hispanic hispanic, it'd just be another day in the neighborhood.

My favorite part in this whole story is how Trayvon's mom rushed out to trademark his name asap. If your kid is dead, you might as well try to cash in on it. I'm sure that's what he would want.

This is all part of Obama's plan anyway. Once Zimmerman gets acquitted (he's being charged now: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_story.html), there will be Rodney King type riots in the street, allowing Obama to declare martial law just before the election that will no longer take place, and further his plan to take over the world and be able to spend more time on NCAA brackets and getting women into country clubs.
/tinfoilhat

[4a6c1]

I don't think anyone posted a gaping asshole. That's alot of words for no goatse.

[Methais]

I don't think anyone posted a gaping asshole. That's alot of words for no goatse.

I apologize.

http://mmii.info/icons/Kaeptn_Blaubaer/other_gDrawing.gif

[g++]

Yah Im sure if a 30 year old black man shot a 17 year old white kid in the chest at 1 in the morning after following him for several blocks cooler heads would have prevailed.

[Atlanteax]

Washington post via CNN: "Zimmerman to be charged."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_story.html

(as provided by Methias)

Looks like the special prosecutor is moving to charge Zimmerman as part of a political move to quell the "why no arrest?!?! RACISTS!!!" angst.

So now the question is whether the charges end up being dropped later on...

[Warriorbird]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_story.html

(as provided by Methias)

Looks like the special prosecutor is moving to charge Zimmerman as part of a political move to quell the "why no arrest?!?! RACISTS!!!" angst.

So now the question is whether the charges end up being dropped later on...

Nah. The question is where his Dad enabled him to flee to.

[g++]

Yes im sure this will make her wildly popular with her base. The republicans.

[Methais]

Yah Im sure if a 30 year old black man shot a 17 year old white kid in the chest at 1 in the morning after following him for several blocks cooler heads would have prevailed.

It wouldn't have turned into a media circus like this case. Probably nothing more than a blip on the local news that night. You definitely wouldn't be hearing from Al and Jesse, because black on black crime is ok, but anything else on black crime is automatically racist.

[Androidpk]

Zimmerman shouldn't have shot a no limit nigga.

[Celephais]

Zimmerman shouldn't have shot a no limit nigga.

Well... to be fair Zimmerman found his limit.

[g++]

I dont hear from Jesse Jackson anyway because I dont go out of my way to read the shit he says, I swear to god if it were not for you I don't think I would have read anything about Jesse Jackson in the past 10 years, hes become more relevant to angry white people then he is to angry blacks.

That aside, you think had this been a 17 year old white kid blown away in a back yard at midnight by a guy who had told the police he was following him on a 9-11 phone call and then no charges were brought that bitch nancy grace wouldnt be interviewing his sobbing blond haired mother right now?

[Androidpk]

Are you sure? I think he still has it in him to knock off a few more drug dealing hoodlums.

[Celephais]

That aside, you think had this been a 17 year old white kid blown away in a back yard at midnight by a guy who had told the police he was following him on a 9-11 phone call and then no charges were brought that bitch nancy grace wouldnt be interviewing his sobbing blond haired mother right now?

Right now, no, but shortly after it happened, sure ... but nobody would have watched it. Just another 10 minute piece that ends with a reporter walking by the 10 candles and chalk writing of a poem setup as a vigil near his death site.

Just so you know, there was something like 13,000 murders in the US in 2010, it takes a compelling set of circumstances to really propel something into the media and have it last this long.

[Parkbandit]

Yah Im sure if a 30 year old black man shot a 17 year old white kid in the chest at 1 in the morning after following him for several blocks cooler heads would have prevailed.

Cooler heads, probably not.. but let's be honest, we wouldn't have even heard about it here in Tampa.. let alone across the nation.

[Methais]

I dont hear from Jesse Jackson anyway because I dont go out of my way to read the shit he says, I swear to god if it were not for you I don't think I would have read anything about Jesse Jackson in the past 10 years, hes become more relevant to angry white people then he is to angry blacks.

That aside, you think had this been a 17 year old white kid blown away in a back yard at midnight by a guy who had told the police he was following him on a 9-11 phone call and then no charges were brought that bitch nancy grace wouldnt be interviewing his sobbing blond haired mother right now?

I don't read what those swollen anal glands say either, but it's hard to not hear about them, no matter how hard you try. I barely even watch the news anymore and I still hear about their faggotry.

Back to the main point. I'm saying it wouldn't have turned into some national media outrage story with doctored audio to further some agenda, and people calling for bounties and all that stupid shit.

It would be more like, "In other news, a 17 year old white kid was blown away in a back yard at midnight by a 30 year old black guy who had told the police he was following him on a 9-11 phone call and then no charges were brought. Back to you Bob for this week's high school football scores."

[g++]

So just to get this straight, the compelling issue here is not that a grown man shot an unarmed teenager and claimed self defense with moderate success. It is the distinct chemistry of a hispanic man who dresses like a white man shooting a black man and it could not have possibly been replicated unless it was a hispanic man who looks kind of white shooting a black man. Is this actually your argument?

As a counter example, of the 13,000 homicides is this the first time a white man has shot a black man? Hispanic over 18 shooting black under 18?

[Methais]

So just to get this straight, the compelling issue here is not that a grown man shot an unarmed teenager and claimed self defense with moderate success. It is the distinct chemistry of a hispanic man who dresses like a white man shooting a black man and it could not have possibly been replicated unless it was a hispanic man who looks kind of white shooting a black man. Is this actually your argument?

As a counter example, of the 13,000 homicides is this the first time a white man has shot a black man? Hispanic over 18 shooting black under 18?

What if it was a black man who dresses like a white man? While you're here, please define "dressing like a white man".

[g++]

Like me obviously. Next question.

But no seriously scores of black teenagers are murdered each year so the argument "This is only news because hes black" is bullshit.

[Methais]

Like me obviously. Next question.

But no seriously scores of black teenagers are murdered each year so the argument "This is only news because hes black" is bullshit.

Let me clarify. The compelling issue is that a black kid was shot by someone who wasn't also black.

Something like 94% of murdered blacks were murdered by other black people. Where's the outrage on those?

[Parkbandit]

So just to get this straight, the compelling issue here is not that a grown man shot an unarmed teenager and claimed self defense with moderate success. It is the distinct chemistry of a hispanic man who dresses like a white man shooting a black man and it could not have possibly been replicated unless it was a hispanic man who looks kind of white shooting a black man. Is this actually your argument?

As a counter example, of the 13,000 homicides is this the first time a white man has shot a black man? Hispanic over 18 shooting black under 18?

This tragedy has many compelling parts to it... some real, some manufactured to create a more compelling "news" story.

[Celephais]

As a counter example, of the 13,000 homicides is this the first time a white man has shot a black man? Hispanic over 18 shooting black under 18?

Who knows, but that's not the point I was making, the point I was making is that there is an extremely small percentage of murders/self defense killings that get this kind of coverage, and that any little detail that would make it less of a ratings booster would see it fall out of the spotlight quickly.

This is more of a perfect storm situation combined with random luck (if you can call it that).

[g++]

This tragedy has many compelling parts to it... some real, some manufactured to create a more compelling "news" story.

I can agree to that. I also can see the angle of racial divide or whatever but frankly as far as playing the race card goes I can pretty much gaurantee you there are more racially sensitive murders nation wide to get upset about. Shit for like 3 years in parts of Los Angeles the Mexican Mafia was hunting black people openly and no one seemed to give a shit, the difference was people in the mexican mafia actually get arrested.

I think the self defense angle and the fact that he did not get charged were just as important if not more important than the race angle to the story taking off but whatever tomato tomahto.

[Back]

Let me clarify. The compelling issue is that a black kid was shot by someone who wasn't also black.

That has less to do with it than he was a 17 year old kid, he was unarmed, he was doing nothing illegal, he is dead, and his killer was not arrested.

[Androidpk]

That has less to do with it than he was a 17 year old kid, he was unarmed, he was doing nothing illegal, he is dead, and his killer was not arrested.

How the fuck do you know that?

[Back]

How the fuck do you know that?

From the 911 call. Even if he had just robbed a house it still did not justify Zimmerman killing him.

[Androidpk]

From the 911 call. Even if he had just robbed a house it still did not justify Zimmerman killing him.

Since you weren't there you should probably just STFU.

[Back]

Since you weren't there you should probably just STFU.

The fuck I will. This is a free country and I'll say whatever the fuck I want dickweed.

[TheEschaton]

For all the times conservatives tout us liberals following the moveon.org line every time they post something like conservativetreehouse.com, when was the last time any self-avowed liberal has been to moveon.org?

I think the last time I visited moveon.org was in 2004 during the Kerry campaign.

Yet Atlanteax and people like him regularly quote shit from insane people and go "LOL U FOLLOW MOVEON.ORG SO F U 2!!!!!"

Man, I read the NYT and the Washington Post.

[Back]

For all the times conservatives tout us liberals following the moveon.org line every time they post something like conservativetreehouse.com, when was the last time any self-avowed liberal has been to moveon.org?

I think the last time I visited moveon.org was in 2004 during the Kerry campaign.

Yet Atlanteax and people like him regularly quote shit from insane people and go "LOL U FOLLOW MOVEON.ORG SO F U 2!!!!!"

Man, I read the NYT and the Washington Post.

I've NEVER had a bookmark for Moveon.org and I never go there. I visit Drudge Report far more often. I do Huffington Post and BBC for my main news.

[Tgo01]

Isn't Huffington Post the younger sister of moveon.org?

[Ryvicke]

For all the times conservatives tout us liberals following the moveon.org line every time they post something like conservativetreehouse.com, when was the last time any self-avowed liberal has been to moveon.org?

I think the last time I visited moveon.org was in 2004 during the Kerry campaign.

Yet Atlanteax and people like him regularly quote shit from insane people and go "LOL U FOLLOW MOVEON.ORG SO F U 2!!!!!"

Man, I read the NYT and the Washington Post.

Heh--I actually wrote up a post just like this earlier but then started doing something at work and just closed the tab. I find it pretty hilarious how much these dudes start screaming about moveon.org (I had no idea this was still a site, I thought it was just a liberal fund-raising arm during the 2004 Kerry campaign) and mediamatters. I don't even think these two sites are on the radar of the daily consumption habits of any liberals I know.

My office is pretty much 99% black-hearted NYC jewy liberals and I can't imagine anyone sending around some fucking garbage and us having a conversation about it, where's the fun in just reading some blatantly one-sided screed? There's no debate there, there's no information.

[Ryvicke]

Isn't Huffington Post the younger sister of moveon.org?

4srs?

[TheEschaton]

HuffPo doesn't draw the ire as much, and you know why? Because they generally have good reporting behind what they write. They also do a lot of news aggregation. It's the left's equivalent of...well, I don't know of a conservative slanted news aggregator with conservative but well-researched op-eds. I'd say Breitbart's site, but he's (was, but whatever) batshit insane and sometimes posts crazy stuff - same with Drudge, who's generally reliable but will stick crazy conspiracy shit in the corners of his page, and had user "blogs" at the bottom of his front page.

Hell, one of my law professors used to write a legal blog for HuffPo.

[Tgo01]

My office is pretty much 99% black-hearted NYC jewy liberals and I can't imagine anyone sending around some fucking garbage and us having a conversation about it, where's the fun in just reading some blatantly one-sided screed? There's no debate there, there's no information.

The person who accuses everyone who disagrees with him of being a Fox news watching old white racist is concerned of having a debate where more than one side is discussed?

[TheEschaton]

Have you ever watched FoxNews? Hannity, Rush, formerly Beck, and Papa Bear drum up nonsense, and then the "news" arm reports on it as being reported on, and cyclically manipulates the news in a conservative hysteria-fest.

[Ryvicke]

The person who accuses everyone who disagrees with him of being a Fox news watching old white racist is cocerned of having a debate where more than one side is discussed?

Why is it weird that I actively dislike old white racist Fox News parrots and also enjoy reading journalism that isn't biased? Kind of the same thing, no?

[Tgo01]

Have you ever watched FoxNews? Hannity, Rush, formerly Beck, and Papa Bear drum up nonsense, and then the "news" arm reports on it as being reported on, and cyclically manipulates the news in a conservative hysteria-fest.

Might want to re read my post.

[Parkbandit]

For all the times conservatives tout us liberals following the moveon.org line every time they post something like conservativetreehouse.com, when was the last time any self-avowed liberal has been to moveon.org?


I can't speak for every conservative.. but I generally only mention moveon.org or mediamatters.org when some mouth breathing dumbass attempts to call anyone who is Conservative a "fox news parrot" or "Faux News" or something ignorant like that.

[Parkbandit]

Have you ever watched FoxNews? Hannity, Rush, formerly Beck, and Papa Bear drum up nonsense, and then the "news" arm reports on it as being reported on, and cyclically manipulates the news in a conservative hysteria-fest.

Yea... it's like watching MSNBC or NBC or CBS or ABC or PBS or reading NYTimes or Washington Post.

[Parkbandit]

Why is it weird that I actively dislike old white racist Fox News parrots and also enjoy reading journalism that isn't biased? Kind of the same thing, no?

What journalism do you read that isn't biased?

[Gelston]

What journalism do you read that isn't biased?

YouTube comments.

[Back]

UPDATE: George Zimmerman has been charged with second-degree murder in the shooting of Trayvon Martin, the special prosecutor for the case announced. He is currently being held in custody after turning himself in (http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/11/prosecutor-to-announce-decision-on-zimmerman/) to authorities.

[Androidpk]

Most of journalism is biased to a degree, but who are considered the most unbiased?