FBI raid on Trump's home

[time4fun]

So, as President, he could store classified documents wherever the fuck he wanted. He could keep them in his bathroom if he wanted.

The ENTIRE crux of the matter is if the documents were classified or not.

No, the primary question is if they ARE classified or not and if Trump has been aware of that fact (or had reason to suspect or reasonably should have known). Biden decides if things are classified right now, not Trump. The second Trump left office, he no longer had any say in this. If the Biden Administration says "If it has classification markers, it's classified" (which was also the official stance of the Trump administration) and if the DoJ has been telling Trump and his lawyers that they need him to return those records, then Trump is potentially in violation of Federal law.

"He psychically declassified Top Secret material with serious national defense implications and made the choice to remove that material to an unsecure personal residence without actually going through the process his own administration required for something to be declassified" is an incredibly shaky argument.

But it's also an argument that ceased to matter once he left office and was informed that he needed to return those records because the DoJ suspected some of it of being classified.

[Gelston]

No, the primary question is if they ARE classified or not and if Trump has been aware of that fact (or had reason to suspect or reasonably should have known). Biden decides if things are classified right now, not Trump. The second Trump left office, he no longer had any say in this. If the Biden Administration says "If it has classification markers, it's classified" (which was also the official stance of the Trump administration) and if the DoJ has been telling Trump and his lawyers that they need him to return those records, then Trump is potentially in violation of Federal law.

"He psychically declassified Top Secret material with serious national defense implications and made the choice to remove that material to an unsecure personal residence without actually going through the process his own administration required for something to be declassified" is an incredibly shaky argument.

But it's also an argument that ceased to matter once he left office and was informed that he needed to return those records because the DoJ suspected some of it of being classified.

If things were declassified before Biden became President, he can’t, in good faith, declare them all of a suddenly classified.

[Sighisoara]

If things were declassified before Biden became President, he can’t, in good faith, declare them all of a suddenly classified.

I’ll ask you the same thing, why not?

[Gelston]

I’ll ask you the same thing, why not?

Do you think a President should have the power to classify anything he wants? Say he wants to classify a magazine, should that be allowed? Should that hold up?

[Seran]

Do you think a President should have the power to classify anything he wants? Say he wants to classify a magazine, should that be allowed? Should that hold up?

The President cannot just classify whatever they want. This was why Trump couldn't classify his "perfect call" with Zelensky.

28 CFR § 17.22 - Classification of information; limitations.

(a) Information may be originally classified only if all of the following standards are met:

(1) The information is owned by, produced by or for, or is under the control of the United States Government;

(2) The information falls within one or more of the categories of information specified in section 1.5 of Executive Order 12958; and

(3) The classifying official determines that the unauthorized disclosure of the information reasonably could be expected to result in damage to the national security and such official is able to identify or describe the damage.

(b) Information may be classified as Top Secret, Secret, or Confidential according to the standards established in section 1.3 of Executive Order 12958. No other terms shall be used to identify United States classified national security information except as otherwise provided by statute.

(c) Information shall not be classified if there is significant doubt about the need to classify the information. If there is significant doubt about the appropriate level of classification with respect to information that is being classified, it shall be classified at the lower classification of the levels considered.

(d) Information shall not be classified in order to conceal inefficiency, violations of law, or administrative error; to prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency; to restrain competition; or to prevent or delay release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security. Information that has been declassified and released to the public under proper authority may not be reclassified.

(e) Information that has not previously been disclosed to the public under proper authority may be classified or reclassified after the Department has received a request for it under the Freedom of Information Act (5 U.S.C. 552), the Privacy Act of 1974 (5 U.S.C. 552a), or the mandatory review provisions of § 17.31. When it is necessary to classify or reclassify such information, it shall be forwarded to the Department Security Officer and classified or reclassified only at the direction of the Attorney General, the Deputy Attorney General, or the Assistant Attorney General for Administration.

(f) Compilations of items of information that are individually unclassified may be classified if the compiled information reveals an additional association or relationship that meets the standards for classification under Executive Order 12958 and that is not otherwise revealed in the individual items of information.

[Sighisoara]

The President cannot just classify whatever they want. This was why Trump couldn't classify his "perfect call" with Zelensky.

I think you’re quoting the wrong part of the cfr. You definitely are as it pertains to the “perfect call.”

[Seran]

I think you’re quoting the wrong part of the cfr. You definitely are as it pertains to the “perfect call.”

(d) Information shall not be classified in order to conceal inefficiency, violations of law, or administrative error; to prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency; to restrain competition; or to prevent or delay release of information that does not require protection in the interest of national security. Information that has been declassified and released to the public under proper authority may not be reclassified.

[time4fun]

If things were declassified before Biden became President, he can’t, in good faith, declare them all of a suddenly classified.

So you're actually starting to hit at the real issue here: a President CANNOT just "privately decide" that something is magically classified or declassified. If it actually worked that way, then former Presidents would effectively have lifetime privileges to declassify anything created up until the last day of their administration (OH! Didn't I tell you? I declassified that already!"), and it would give any current President the ability to make anyone with any government records at all a felon.

That's why the processes exist- processes that the Executive Branch created, mind you. So to be very clear- a President CANNOT snap their fingers and make something classified/declassified. They have the authority to decide what what should be classified/declassified. But it still has to actually be classified/declassified. And it's obvious in this case that this stuff wasn't- because it still has classification markers.

But you're also missing a key issue here: the DoJ has been working with Trump for 15 months to try to recover these documents. There have been two court-ordered subpoenas, the FBI has forcibly removed documents from his residence several time even before this raid, and they've been telling him and his lawyers that he has material he's not legally allowed to possess.

So why the hell did he still have this stuff? At this point, Trump was keeping materials that he KNEW he was supposed to return. And you don't accidentally end up with TS/SCI materials. You have to physically remove them from the specific government facilities where they are legally required to be stored. And at any point in time over the last 15 months, he very well could have said "Oh I have some classified stuff, but I declassified it so I don't have to give it back".

He didn't. So the whole "Oh I already declassified it!" argument that just popped up after the FBI Raid found him in possession of materials that could very well land him in Federal prison rings a bit hollow.

[time4fun]

I should also point out that the legal issues here completely obscure the REAL issues.

Let's say that Trump DID declassify TP/SCI material- that means he took material that " its unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security." and decided to make it legal to disseminate that kind of information and then to take it to his private residence and then to go out of his way to avoid giving it back to the DoJ after 15 months of them trying to get that material back.



And that's the BEST CASE scenario here.

[Sighisoara]

I should also point out that the legal issues here completely obscure the REAL issues.

Let's say that Trump DID declassify TP/SCI material- that means he took material that " its unauthorized disclosure could reasonably be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security." and decided to make it legal to disseminate that kind of information and then to take it to his private residence and then to go out of his way to avoid giving it back to the DoJ after 15 months of them trying to get that material back.



And that's the BEST CASE scenario here.

I think this is a pretty big overstatement, too.