Tyranny of the ATF

[Suppressed Poet]

I'm in. Drunk people can't buy or sell guns until they sober up.



What problem should I solve next?

I just want to say that it always warms my heart seeing that epic high five between Maverick & Goose.

[Solkern]

I appreciate the question and rational conversation on the matter.

I am absolutely for background checks and taking reasonable precautions that the person buying a firearm is legally allowed to possess one. It’s a common misconception that supporters of the 2nd Amendment oppose background checks all together, which simply isn’t true.

I don’t think it’s a common misconception at all.

You said documenting who buys a firearm, and that is where it gets a little tricky… It’s illegal and goes against the 2nd Amendment for our government to have a national firearms registry (with the exception of NFA registered weapons like machine guns which is another matter that I won’t get into here). Why is that? I’m sure you have heard from people like me that registration leads to confiscation but perhaps nobody has explained that well. If the government has a list of every person that posses firearms & what kind, that can (and throughout history repeatedly has been) used for nefarious purposes of disarming its citizens.

Sorry when I said documenting, I meant background checks, and keeping a record of it.

When people say they want “universal background checks” and “closing the gun show loophole” let’s talk about what that really means. FFL dealers perform background checks. A private citizen doesn’t have the tools or resources to do so, and so currently one private individual selling to another isn’t required to perform a background check on the buyer. It’s important to note that it is a felony to knowingly sell a firearm to someone that legally cannot posses one.

You can get your own background check done, most local background checks can be done online, through the local police stations. I got mine done, took 10 minutes, and just went to the police station to pick it up. A full state would have cost me $10 and takes around a day to complete.

I do object to a transaction between two private individuals to require a background check for a number of reasons. The biggest one of all, the only way to be able to enforce that as law is for the government to know who has the guns (a firearm registry). Think about it…how would the feds know that I sold a gun to my neighbor without a background check? The only way is to check a list to say that gun belonged to me and no background check was conducted on the buyer. This defeats the Second Amendment. That’s not the only reason I object to it, but I don’t want to make this super long & the reason I gave is the most important.

This is where I believe you are a little wrong. Let’s imagine I buy a gun from you, you take my background check, and keep it. I go out and kill 3 people, they can trace the gun’s serial number back to you, and you can provide evidence that you did a background check on me. There would be no national registry etc.

[Suppressed Poet]

I don’t think it’s a common misconception at all.



Sorry when I said documenting, I meant background checks, and keeping a record of it.



You can get your own background check done, most local background checks can be done online, through the local police stations. I got mine done, took 10 minutes, and just went to the police station to pick it up. A full state would have cost me $10 and takes around a day to complete.




This is where I believe you are a little wrong. Let’s imagine I buy a gun from you, you take my background check, and keep it. I go out and kill 3 people, they can trace the gun’s serial number back to you, and you can provide evidence that you did a background check on me. There would be no national registry etc.

When we’re talking about firearms background check let’s keep it standardized & in the context to completing an ATF form 4473 & a NICS check. The only ones that can effectively do that are registered FFLs (firearms dealers). FFLs get audited by the ATF for record keeping and such. They are required to hold onto 4473s for a period of 10 years if I am not mistaken.

I understand the scenario you are trying to paint but let’s remove murder from the equation and just say that the ATF is investigating firearms crime. IE, they are going after people who sold guns but didn’t go through a background check with universal background check laws. Now I have a bunch of guns and sell one to somebody in a private sale outside of the FFL process. How would the ATF be able to enforce that universal background check law and go after me for that crime of selling a firearm outside of that process without a list of knowing what guns I possess?

[~Rocktar~]

Again, what other Rights of lawful citizens require authorization and tracking from the government to exercise?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueler?

[Solkern]

When we’re talking about firearms background check let’s keep it standardized & in the context to completing an ATF form 4473 & a NICS check. The only ones that can effectively do that are registered FFLs (firearms dealers). FFLs get audited by the ATF for record keeping and such. They are required to hold onto 4473s for a period of 10 years if I am not mistaken.

I understand the scenario you are trying to paint but let’s remove murder from the equation and just say that the ATF is investigating firearms crime. IE, they are going after people who sold guns but didn’t go through a background check with universal background check laws. Now I have a bunch of guns and sell one to somebody in a private sale outside of the FFL process. How would the ATF be able to enforce that universal background check law and go after me for that crime of selling a firearm outside of that process without a list of knowing what guns I possess?

That’s a specific scenario. I’m referring to the guns that are used to commit crimes, or are in the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. A serial number trace can see who bought and sold the gun.

It’s more like, you sold a gun to me, I committed a crime with it. They trace the gun back to you, if you didn’t do/get a background check before you sold it, you’d be charged. If you did do a check, you’re fine.

I think the law is NOT to crack down on people who sell guns, it’s to ensure that the people who have the rights to have firearms can get them, and the ones that don’t have the right to get firearms don’t get firearms.

I think private citizens should by law, be required to get a background check from the buyer, and keep it on file.
It literally takes 10 minutes and a 24 hour wait to get a state/national background check. It’s not difficult at all, and an extremely small thing people can request/do to make sure people who shouldn’t have guns, don’t get them.

With great power, comes great responsibility

[Suppressed Poet]

That’s a specific scenario. I’m referring to the guns that are used to commit crimes, or are in the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. A serial number trace can see who bought and sold the gun.

It’s more like, you sold a gun to me, I committed a crime with it. They trace the gun back to you, if you didn’t do/get a background check before you sold it, you’d be charged. If you did do a check, you’re fine.

As I mentioned, there isn’t a legal firearm registry database.

Currently the way it works today is LEOs would look for the serial number and find the FFL that was in possession of the firearm. Next ATF would contact the FFL and ask for the 4473 of the sale of that firearm. Then they would need to talk to the person that bought it. The person that bought it could have lost, had stolen, or sold it to another person and ATF or LEOs would need to investigate to find out.

Do you agree that a national firearm registry is a violation of the Constitution and a bad idea?

[Solkern]

As I mentioned, there isn’t a legal firearm registry database.

Currently the way it works today is LEOs would look for the serial number and find the FFL that was in possession of the firearm. Next ATF would contact the FFL and ask for the 4473 of the sale of that firearm. Then they would need to talk to the person that bought it. The person that bought it could have lost, had stolen, or sold it to another person and ATF or LEOs would need to investigate to find out.

Do you agree that a national firearm registry is a violation of the Constitution and a bad idea?

Lost or stolen, if your gun was lost or stolen, wouldn’t you report that to the police? If private sellers kept a record of who they sold to, it shouldn’t be an issue to track who had the firearm last.

Do I think a national registry is a bad idea and a violation? Based on history, I can understand why it is a bad idea and a violation because of said history. At the same time, the world has changed, technology is different, and I think we need to change and adapt to the changing times. That being said, I don’t support a national registry, but I support private sellers keeping on record who they have sold guns to.

To access this information from the seller, they would need a warrant, for tracking a gun that was used in a crime.

[Suppressed Poet]

Lost or stolen, if your gun was lost or stolen, wouldn’t you report that to the police? If private sellers kept a record of who they sold to, it shouldn’t be an issue to track who had the firearm last.

Do I think a national registry is a bad idea and a violation? Based on history, I can understand why it is a bad idea and a violation because of said history. At the same time, the world has changed, technology is different, and I think we need to change and adapt to the changing times. That being said, I don’t support a national registry, but I support private sellers keeping on record who they have sold guns to.

To access this information from the seller, they would need a warrant, for tracking a gun that was used in a crime.

A responsible person would report a firearm lost or stolen, yes. For reasons, that doesn’t always happen though.

I think it’s reasonable for private sellers to keep a log. I don’t really sell guns, but I thought about how I would handle posting an ad on Texas Gun Trader and selling to a private person that I don’t know. I’d ask to see if they have a Texas LTC (carry license). If they have a valid one, then they have already gone through extensive background checks. If they didn’t, I’d probably choose to facilitate the sale through my FFL and pay the fee. That’s my personal decision though, but legislating that I find unnecessary. The real truth is the reason politicians are pushing universal background checks is not to prevent gun crime. It’s about control.

[Solkern]

A responsible person would report a firearm lost or stolen, yes. For reasons, that doesn’t always happen though.

I think it’s reasonable for private sellers to keep a log. I don’t really sell guns, but I thought about how I would handle posting an ad on Texas Gun Trader and selling to a private person that I don’t know. I’d ask to see if they have a Texas LTC (carry license). If they have a valid one, then they have already gone through extensive background checks. If they didn’t, I’d probably choose to facilitate the sale through my FFL and pay the fee. That’s my personal decision though, but legislating that I find unnecessary. The real truth is the reason politicians are pushing universal background checks is not to prevent gun crime. It’s about control.

Would you be for or against a law that requires private sellers to need a national/state background check, and/or each state provides a hotline where the seller can verify that the buyer’s carry permit is legal and valid, and they keep a personal record of each buyer?

[Suppressed Poet]

Would you be for or against a law that requires private sellers to need a national/state background check, and/or each state provides a hotline where the seller can verify that the buyer’s carry permit is legal and valid, and they keep a personal record of each buyer?

I wouldn’t be totally opposed to that if:

It was free for the buyer and seller
The process was fast and not cumbersome
It can be done & the law enforced without creating a national firearm registry

I can’t speak to the legality on all things, but if the above conditions were met I wouldn’t write angry letters to my representative about it.