Tyranny of the ATF

[Solkern]

There is no right to own drugs. Just like there is no right to drive on the road, attack another person or murder babies. There is a right to own arms. And yes, in the question of rights, it is black and white.

And there is no right to deny a felon or someone with mental problems from owning a gun either.

[Methais]

So tell me, why should a store require checks, but a private citizen shouldn’t? You are complaining about infringing on rights, when we are just making the checks required more or less the same whether it’s from a store or a private citizen.

If it's a private citizen that sells guns regularly or something, either for his living or as a side hustle, then sure, who gives a shit, because he's effectively a "store" at that point.

If it's some random jobber trying to sell a rifle he inherited from his grandpa but can't because he has to deal with mountains of paperwork and expensive red tape and shit first, and also keep paperwork on file for 20 years, being subject to random inspections and whatever else, then no, that's bullshit.

I'm just questioning your actual words, particularly the part where you're saying shit like how the ATF is doing "too much" while in the same breath saying they're not infringing on or restricting anything, and I'm asking for you to enlighten me with your wisdom so that I can understand how both things can be possible at the same time.

What specifically is the ATF doing that you consider to be "too much?"

This is all ignoring the fact that this will all have 0 effect on actual criminals, and will only restrict law abiding citizens who already aren't the problem, and also ignoring the fact that it won't stop there, as they'll keep placing more and more restrictions on everyone over time like they've been steadily doing for years now, all while criminals still have no problems getting guns.

This is due to the definition of the word "criminal."

[Solkern]

If it's a private citizen that sells guns regularly or something, either for his living or as a side hustle, then sure, who gives a shit, because he's effectively a "store" at that point.

If it's some random jobber trying to sell a rifle he inherited from his grandpa but can't because he has to deal with mountains of paperwork and expensive red tape and shit first, and also keep paperwork on file for 20 years, being subject to random inspections and whatever else, then no, that's bullshit.

I'm just questioning your actual words, particularly the part where you're saying shit like how the ATF is doing "too much" while in the same breath saying they're not infringing on or restricting anything, and I'm asking for you to enlighten me with your wisdom so that I can understand how both things can be possible at the same time.

What specifically is the ATF doing that you consider to be "too much?"

This is all ignoring the fact that this will all have 0 effect on actual criminals, and will only restrict law abiding citizens who already aren't the problem, and also ignoring the fact that it won't stop there, as they'll keep placing more and more restrictions on everyone over time like they've been steadily doing for years now, all while criminals still have no problems getting guns.

This is due to the definition of the word "criminal."

So let me get this right. A store requires mountains of paperwork, yet a private citizen requires zero, and you are ok with this?

But I can tell, you actually didn’t read anything about the rule changes. Because if you did, you would know this doesn’t effect a random jobber from selling his daddy’s gun.

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis. The term shall include such activities wherever, or through whatever medium, they may be conducted, such as at a gun show or event, flea market, auction house, or gun range or club; at one’s home; by mail order; over the Internet; through the use of other electronic means (e.g., an online broker, online auction, text messaging service, social media raffle, or website); or at any other domestic or international public or private marketplace or premises.

Maybe you should actually read it?

[Parkbandit]

While I think the ATF is going overboard and it’s too much, but it does not infringe or stop a person who has a right to own a gun, from purchasing or own a gun at all.

Typical Soykern mealy-mouth response.

"It's just a little inconvenience so it's not infringing.. but I think the ATF is going overboard and it's too much!"

[Suppressed Poet]

So let me get this right. A store requires mountains of paperwork, yet a private citizen requires zero, and you are ok with this?

But I can tell, you actually didn’t read anything about the rule changes. Because if you did, you would know this doesn’t effect a random jobber from selling his daddy’s gun.

Dealer. Any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail; any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms; or any person who is a pawnbroker. The term shall include any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time basis. The term shall include such activities wherever, or through whatever medium, they may be conducted, such as at a gun show or event, flea market, auction house, or gun range or club; at one’s home; by mail order; over the Internet; through the use of other electronic means (e.g., an online broker, online auction, text messaging service, social media raffle, or website); or at any other domestic or international public or private marketplace or premises.

Maybe you should actually read it?

What in there did you read that said if you are a “random jobber selling daddy’s gun” in any of those places you are exempt?

BTW: This is what I meant in my original post of it being purposely ambiguous. If I sell my daddy’s gun to another private individual without registering as a FFL & background check on the buyer, and I make a profit from that transaction, am I breaking the law (or we can call it ATF rule)? I don’t know. I doubt you do.

[Solkern]

What in there did you read that said if you are a “random jobber selling daddy’s gun” in any of those places you are exempt?

The rules apply to people who do this as a part time job, or as some sort of business, not a one off thing.

[Parkbandit]

The rules apply to people who do this as a part time job, or as some sort of business, not a one off thing.

You actually believe this.. which is where you made the left turn to Retardville.

Can you quote the part of the new regulations from the ATF where it states that "one off thing" is exempt?

[Solkern]

What in there did you read that said if you are a “random jobber selling daddy’s gun” in any of those places you are exempt?

These proposed changes would assist persons in understanding when they are required to have a license to deal in firearms. Consistent with the Gun Control Act (“GCA”) and existing regulations, the proposed rule also defines the term “personal collection” to clarify when persons are not “engaged in the business” because they make only occasional sales to enhance a personal collection, or for a hobby, or if the firearms they sell are all or part of a personal collection.

[Suppressed Poet]

These proposed changes would assist persons in understanding when they are required to have a license to deal in firearms. Consistent with the Gun Control Act (“GCA”) and existing regulations, the proposed rule also defines the term “personal collection” to clarify when persons are not “engaged in the business” because they make only occasional sales to enhance a personal collection, or for a hobby, or if the firearms they sell are all or part of a personal collection.

What are occasional sales? Say I have a personal collection of 500+ firearms, and in 2023 I decide to sell 100 (just 1/5th of my collection). Is that occasional?

[Solkern]

What are occasional sales? Say I have a personal collection of 500+ firearms, and in 2023 I decide to sell 100 (just 1/5th of my collection). Is that occasional?

Occasional doesn’t mean the amount, but means how often. You aren’t in the business of buying and selling guns.

You’re selling to either enhance, or dwindle your current collection, it’s not your business.

But I agree the rules still need to be clarified.