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Thread: FBI raid on Trump's home

  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solkern View Post
    According to trump means absolutely nothing.
    Only the FBI's word matters! We live in a police state now!

    Quote Originally Posted by Solkern View Post
    Do you think that warrant would have been signed and issued if those documents were indeed declassified?
    Yes. You seem to think a search warrant is some sort of deep dive into the facts of the case. It's a rather straight forward process that only requires probable cause, the absolute lowest level of proof required. You know what else is considered "probable cause?" The police smelling something funny would be "probable cause" for them to search a vehicle for drugs. Yeah. The level of proof is THAT fucking low.

    Keep in mind the FBI has ADMITTED they lied to a FISA court in order to open investigations in the past. But sure. There is no way in hell the FBI would do it again in order to obtain a simple search warrant! Again keep licking them boots.
    Last edited by Tgo01; 08-13-2022 at 11:35 AM.

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Solkern View Post
    Being ignorant isn’t an excuse, at all.. especially when it deals with top secret documents. Next, I don’t buy the ignorance excuse, that would have worked if he turned them all over the first time, he keeping them and forcing the FBI to raid his house shows a level of intent and knowledge of what he had.
    When willfulness, ie knowledge, is a necessary element, it is relevant. You are certainly welcome to your opinion that you don’t believe it, but them coming and reviewing the documents there multiple times cuts both ways, I think.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solkern View Post
    Being ignorant isn’t an excuse, at all.. especially when it deals with top secret documents. Next, I don’t buy the ignorance excuse, that would have worked if he turned them all over the first time, he keeping them and forcing the FBI to raid his house shows a level of intent and knowledge of what he had.
    You know what mens rea is correct?
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  4. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    You know what mens rea is correct?
    Yeah...intent definitely matters.

    You have to prove someone knew, had reason to suspect, or reasonably should have known what they were doing was a crime

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by time4fun View Post
    Yeah...intent definitely matters.

    You have to prove someone knew, had reason to suspect, or reasonably should have known what they were doing was a crime
    If he 100% thought he classified it, probably not a crime. It might not even be a crime for him to possess it in the first place. I think the big thing they were afraid of, they thought he was going to show it to people, which would 100% be a crime. They have to prove he had any intent to do that.

    I'm not faulting the FBI or anyone on going in there to take the items back. They 100% believe it is classified, and even if it isn't, their raid would stand up under the good faith doctrine.

    Did Trump declassify? I don't know. No one on here knows. I really think Trump has created these worlds for himself that he lives in and he believes what he wants and it is 100% true to him.

    I'm sure we'll discover more as it is released.
    Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

  6. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    If he 100% thought he classified it, probably not a crime. It might not even be a crime for him to possess it in the first place. I think the big thing they were afraid of, they thought he was going to show it to people, which would 100% be a crime. They have to prove he had any intent to do that.

    I'm not faulting the FBI or anyone on going in there to take the items back. They 100% believe it is classified, and even if it isn't, their raid would stand up under the good faith doctrine.

    Did Trump declassify? I don't know. No one on here knows. I really think Trump has created these worlds for himself that he lives in and he believes what he wants and it is 100% true to him.

    I'm sure we'll discover more as it is released.
    According to Trump, the DOJ has been there in the past to review the documents.. even asking that they be kept under more security by adding another lock to them. This was in June 2022. Not sure what happened between June and August, but prior to that it looks as though Trump was working with the DOJ.

    I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest that Trump took a more hard line approach to this and the DOJ decided to break all traditions and just seize the documents in what can only be viewed as a fishing exercise in a desperate attempt to get him to not run in 2024. It's probably had the exact opposite effect.
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  7. #137
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    Eh, I think he already planned to go for a run again in 2024. This will galvanize a lot of his supporters though.
    Last edited by Gelston; 08-13-2022 at 12:32 PM.
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  8. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelston View Post
    If he 100% thought he classified it, probably not a crime. It might not even be a crime for him to possess it in the first place. I think the big thing they were afraid of, they thought he was going to show it to people, which would 100% be a crime. They have to prove he had any intent to do that.

    I'm not faulting the FBI or anyone on going in there to take the items back. They 100% believe it is classified, and even if it isn't, their raid would stand up under the good faith doctrine.

    Did Trump declassify? I don't know. No one on here knows. I really think Trump has created these worlds for himself that he lives in and he believes what he wants and it is 100% true to him.

    I'm sure we'll discover more as it is released.
    He was knowingly in violation of the Presidential Records Act in fairness- none of that material is his. It's all government property- so he has no legal defense for retaining those records regardless of classification. That's what started all of this to begin with. But that law itself has no actual punishment attached.

    After you and I had our exchange about classification, I dug in a little more and did some more research. One thing that came up that feels silly to have missed in retrospect is that the statutes listed in the warrant were all created before our current classification system (which was developed by Clinton as a part of his pledge for more government transparency). It turns out you and I were both wrong. It's irrelevant whether the information was classified or not. (Though I suppose the Courts could decide classification levels are the appropriate, objective standard for what constitutes serious threat to national security)

    For the Espionage Act (793), all that matters is that he knew, had reason to suspect, or should reasonably have known that the information in his possession had the potential to seriously harm our national security in the event of unauthorized disclosure. Given he was THE original classification authority and that several items were marked as Top Secret or TS/SCI- it would be hard to argue he didn't meet that criteria. And as both of us know, TP/SCI stuff doesn't just "accidentally" get taken out of a vault.

    For 2071 and 1519, even that doesn't matter. They apply to either any Federal government records (2071) or anything pertaining to a Federal investigation (1519).

    We don't really know what evidence they had for probable cause or much about the substance of the 15 months of negotiations and fighting over these records. Trump's big defense for 793 is likely going to be that he had no idea those TP & TP/SCI records were there. For the other two, it's likely going to be that he didn't know what was in those boxes and didn't understand that they weren't his to keep. But it's also possible that there's enough evidence to render those arguments moot.

    If a Judge signed off on a warrant though, and they've been in 15 months of fighting and ignoring court subpoenas, it's not going to be easy to pull that off. And being former POTUS- ignorance on the national defense issues just isn't going to fly.

    And that's not even touching the fact that, by Trump's own tacit admission, he was in possession of records related to nuclear programs. The rules for how those have to be handled are set by Congress, and even when he was in office Trump had no authority to walk that information into an unsecure location, let alone to declassify it.

    So I think the whole classification argument, while intellectually interesting and potentially relevant in some instances, is actually a secondary issue at best.
    Last edited by time4fun; 08-13-2022 at 12:45 PM.

  9. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by time4fun View Post
    He was knowingly in violation of the Presidential Records Act in fairness- none of that material is his. It's all government property- so he has no legal defense for retaining those records regardless of classification. That's what started all of this to begin with. But that law itself has no actual punishment attached.

    After you and I had our exchange about classification, I dug in a little more and did some more research. One thing that came up that feels silly to have missed in retrospect is that the statutes listed in the warrant were all created before our current classification system (which was developed by Clinton as a part of his pledge for more government transparency). It turns out you and I were both wrong. It's irrelevant whether the information was classified or not. (Though I suppose the Courts could decide classification levels are the appropriate, objective standard for what constitutes serious threat to national security)

    For the Espionage Act (793), all that matters is that he knew, had reason to suspect, or should reasonably have known that the information in his possession had the potential to seriously harm our national security in the event of unauthorized disclosure. Given he was THE original classification authority and that several items were marked as Top Secret or TS/SCI- it would be hard to argue he didn't meet that criteria. And as both of us know, TP/SCI stuff doesn't just "accidentally" get taken out of a vault.

    For 2071 and 1519, even that doesn't matter. They apply to either any Federal government records (2071) or anything pertaining to a Federal investigation (1519).

    We don't really know what evidence they had for probable cause or much about the substance of the 15 months of negotiations and fighting over these records. Trump's big defense for 793 is likely going to be that he had no idea those TP & TP/SCI records were there. For the other two, it's likely going to be that he didn't know what was in those boxes and didn't understand that they weren't his to keep. But it's also possible that there's enough evidence to render those arguments moot.

    If a Judge signed off on a warrant though, and they've been in 15 months of fighting and ignoring court subpoenas, it's not going to be easy to pull that off. And being former POTUS- ignorance on the national defense issues just isn't going to fly.

    And that's not even touching the fact that, by Trump's own tacit admission, he was in possession of records related to nuclear programs. The rules for how those have to be handled are set by Congress, and even when he was in office Trump had no authority to walk that information into an unsecure location, let alone to declassify it.

    So I think the whole classification argument, while intellectually interesting and potentially relevant in some instances, is actually a secondary issue at best.
    Well, you haven't been right about anything yet... maybe THIS time it will be different?!?

    I doubt it.
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    Besides, Republicans also block abstinence and contraceptives anyway.
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    You show me a video of me typing that and Ill admit it. (This was the excuse he came up with when he was called out for a really stupid post)
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    3 million more popular votes. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. Gerrymandering won for Trump.

  10. #140
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    There are no penalties associated with the Presidential Records Act, so violation or not, it means nothing.
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