Climate Change Report

[waywardgs]

Even though I could die in a car wreck any day, I still work to make my life long and fulfilling.

[cwolff]

Can't tell if you are trying to be funny or what.

But I am sure even you realize that natural disasters are the primary drivers of climate change. Period.

If Yellow Stone erupts.. I THINK even you will admit that it will cause more "climate change" then every human for the past 200 years. namely all the small particles in the upper atmosphere will cause a global cooling.

Personally.. I think this is how nature corrects itself. Pesky humans getting to uppity... blow your top (literally in some cases) problem solved for a few hundred/thousand years.

Ya I was joking because I thought Methais was joking too.

In that case, can you tell me roughly how much CO2 or whatever other supposedly "evil" gases are released into the atmosphere during your average volcanic eruption then, since you obviously possess some sort of knowledge that you can equate it to basically nothing?

Even if we're responsible for 100% of it, there isn't one person in Washington who has any ideas on how to fix it that would either solve nothing and only make things worse for everybody.

There you go with the value judgements. I think that in your mind you feel that climate scientists are somehow judging you so you react defensively. No one's calling any greenhouse gas evil. No one's blaming anyone. It's just a problem that needs to be addressed.

I think your point is similar to what I already said about natural phenomena that could destroy us. It is true and it's a real threat. A big volcano, meteor or other natural process could wipe out civilization as we know it. Maybe even wipe out fragile animals like humans. Doesn't mean we should just shit in the pool because it's going to be drained at the end of the Summer anyway.

[Methais]

Ya I was joking because I thought Methais was joking too.



There you go with the value judgements. I think that in your mind you feel that climate scientists are somehow judging you so you react defensively. No one's calling any greenhouse gas evil. No one's blaming anyone. It's just a problem that needs to be addressed.

I think your point is similar to what I already said about natural phenomena that could destroy us. It is true and it's a real threat. A big volcano, meteor or other natural process could wipe out civilization as we know it. Maybe even wipe out fragile animals like humans. Doesn't mean we should just shit in the pool because it's going to be drained at the end of the Summer anyway.

Who said anything about shitting in the pool? All I'm saying is that compared to the things that have been happening by nature for millions/billions of years, our impact is probably pretty small.

[waywardgs]

Who said anything about shitting in the pool? All I'm saying is that compared to the things that have been happening by nature for millions/billions of years, our impact is probably pretty small.

So you DO admit we have an impact then! Welcome to the environmental movement, Methais. Glad to have you aboard!

[Latrinsorm]

Who said anything about shitting in the pool? All I'm saying is that compared to the things that have been happening by nature for millions/billions of years, our impact is probably pretty small.

The report addresses exactly this question. You can read it if you want.

[crb]

Here is my beef with the environmental zealots. It is all about money, and pushing forward social and political change they desire. They want scarcity of resources be it energy, oil from Canada, or food for the world through genetic engineering. They want scarcity as a tool to put forward the political change they're after. The various lemming joiners who push the agenda may not realize this, but the people at the top feeding them the bullshit do.

Personally, I find it offensive when a little brown kid dies because some douche from greenpeace prevents that kid from having access to GMO grain. I find it offensive when people have to endure a lower standard of living, including all the ills that come from that, because some loser doesn't want to give them access to available energy. I also find it offensive that these greedy tools are diverting limited funds from areas where they could be far better used. There is no argument about things like lead or mercury, imagine if all the money we're spending on CO2 (you know, what plants breath), was instead used to work on cleaning up things that actually kill people. Especially when you consider that we were all pushed into using lightbulbs that contain a mercury in pursuit of fewer carbon emissions. Yes, it is a tiny amount, multiple a tiny amount by the billions that have been manufactured. LED adoption can't come fast enough.

You know what people do when they have a lower standard of living? They cut down forests and use wood for fuel. Living green is a luxury and if you really wanted to get the world to exist with less pollution you'd not push for policies that retard economic growth. People living paycheck to paycheck don't care about dioxins, they don't buy organic produce, they need to be paid to recycle.

The opportunity cost of fighting this misguided crusade against CO2 is enormous. The only constant in the climatic history of the earth has been change, the earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled repeatedly long before we had SUVs. It is hubris to think we're steering this ship.

I compost, I donate to save the whales, I walk when I can instead of drive, I recycle probably a couple tons of shit a year, my next house is going to have a pimping solar array and be hugely energy efficient. My #1 favorite hobby is gardening, I've literally hugged trees. So fuck anyone who thinks I don't care about the environment. Modern environmentalism is more about politics than science, or anything found in nature.

/rant.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Here is my beef with the environmental zealots. It is all about money, and pushing forward social and political change they desire. They want scarcity of resources be it energy, oil from Canada, or food for the world through genetic engineering. They want scarcity as a tool to put forward the political change they're after. The various lemming joiners who push the agenda may not realize this, but the people at the top feeding them the bullshit do.

Personally, I find it offensive when a little brown kid dies because some douche from greenpeace prevents that kid from having access to GMO grain. I find it offensive when people have to endure a lower standard of living, including all the ills that come from that, because some loser doesn't want to give them access to available energy. I also find it offensive that these greedy tools are diverting limited funds from areas where they could be far better used. There is no argument about things like lead or mercury, imagine if all the money we're spending on CO2 (you know, what plants breath), was instead used to work on cleaning up things that actually kill people. Especially when you consider that we were all pushed into using lightbulbs that contain a mercury in pursuit of fewer carbon emissions. Yes, it is a tiny amount, multiple a tiny amount by the billions that have been manufactured. LED adoption can't come fast enough.

You know what people do when they have a lower standard of living? They cut down forests and use wood for fuel. Living green is a luxury and if you really wanted to get the world to exist with less pollution you'd not push for policies that retard economic growth. People living paycheck to paycheck don't care about dioxins, they don't buy organic produce, they need to be paid to recycle.

The opportunity cost of fighting this misguided crusade against CO2 is enormous. The only constant in the climatic history of the earth has been change, the earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled repeatedly long before we had SUVs. It is hubris to think we're steering this ship.

I compost, I donate to save the whales, I walk when I can instead of drive, I recycle probably a couple tons of shit a year, my next house is going to have a pimping solar array and be hugely energy efficient. My #1 favorite hobby is gardening, I've literally hugged trees. So fuck anyone who thinks I don't care about the environment. Modern environmentalism is more about politics than science, or anything found in nature.

/rant.

Don't forget to mention that the companies that lobbied the hardest to remove traditional lightbulbs are the same companies who manufacture the mandatory use lightbulbs. Also, motion sensor lighting and leds in my house fucking rock. Solar Panels are next up, they pay for themselves after all. Here is a case we all should be concerned about:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/featu...0,2504133.post

[Latrinsorm]

The only constant in the climatic history of the earth has been change, the earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled repeatedly long before we had SUVs. It is hubris to think we're steering this ship.

Did you look at pages 9 and 10 of the report?

[Candor]

Modern environmentalism is more about politics than science, or anything found in nature.

I would say "politics and money" instead of just "politics".

I can't access the report at the moment, but I'll respond anyway (because that's what I do).

I am convinced there is something to mankind's use of the Earth and temperature changes. The problem here, however, is that there are temperature changes in the Earth that occur naturally over time. So how much of the cause is natural and how much is due to mankind's use of the Earth? I do not know of a single study that can answer the question intelligently.

As such, I have problems with extremists on either side of the issue. We need a common sense, implementable set of solutions. Considerable nuclear power expansion is, in my mind, one part of the solution. We need more efficient cars and more research into reduction of fossil fuels in making them run. Someone should research the much greater use of trains in transporting goods.

These ideas barely scratch the surface, but are the sort of things that should be considered. Banning all fossils fuels by 2030, for example, is the sort of idea that should go straight into the trash heap.

[waywardgs]

Here is my beef with the environmental zealots. It is all about money, and pushing forward social and political change they desire. They want scarcity of resources be it energy, oil from Canada, or food for the world through genetic engineering. They want scarcity as a tool to put forward the political change they're after. The various lemming joiners who push the agenda may not realize this, but the people at the top feeding them the bullshit do.

So tell me how this is different from big oil, monsanto, et al? I find it disingenuous to harp on "environmental zealotry" when there is plenty of entrenched zealotry in the business of making money at the expense of the planet.

Personally, I find it offensive when a little brown kid dies because some douche from greenpeace prevents that kid from having access to GMO grain. I find it offensive when people have to endure a lower standard of living, including all the ills that come from that, because some loser doesn't want to give them access to available energy.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you'll find a higher rate of little brown kid deaths from countries and companies moving in, stripping resources, looting the local economy and whatnot than from greenpeace. Just a guess though.

You know what people do when they have a lower standard of living? They cut down forests and use wood for fuel. Living green is a luxury and if you really wanted to get the world to exist with less pollution you'd not push for policies that retard economic growth. People living paycheck to paycheck don't care about dioxins, they don't buy organic produce, they need to be paid to recycle.

Truth.

The opportunity cost of fighting this misguided crusade against CO2 is enormous. The only constant in the climatic history of the earth has been change, the earth has warmed and cooled and warmed and cooled repeatedly long before we had SUVs. It is hubris to think we're steering this ship.

It is hubris to think we can do whatever we want to the planet without ill effect.

I compost, I donate to save the whales, I walk when I can instead of drive, I recycle probably a couple tons of shit a year, my next house is going to have a pimping solar array and be hugely energy efficient. My #1 favorite hobby is gardening, I've literally hugged trees. So fuck anyone who thinks I don't care about the environment. Modern environmentalism is more about politics than science, or anything found in nature.

/rant.

I'm moving to the woods, so I'm better than you, gardener.

But really, these are all excellent things.