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Thread: More Obamacare fuckups

  1. #981

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlanteax View Post
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...zed/?hpt=hp_t1

    What a clusterfark!! Just *scrap* the whole thing.
    Issues continued, but after the first week, the trend turned more positive.

    On October 9, the war room update for the morning says, "About 60% of applicants are getting into HealthCare.gov without sitting in the waiting room." That left 40% who still had to wait. But the number was a vast improvement from the 90% to 95% percent the week before.
    That was a clusterfuck. It's not getting scrapped though. For one thing, it's getting better, and for another, most people want it. They may not want "obamacare" or they may want to make some changes but the basics are common ground.

    From here on out it's going to be a battle of making tweaks and adjustments.

  2. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwolff View Post
    That was a clusterfuck. It's not getting scrapped though. For one thing, it's getting better, and for another, most people want it. They may not want "obamacare" or they may want to make some changes but the basics are common ground.

    From here on out it's going to be a battle of making tweaks and adjustments.
    Most people do not want it. That's the problem. They may want aspects of it, but you can say that about just about anything. I am sure most Americans would like aspects of socialized medicine, that doesn't mean they want it.

    Also, 60% getting thru the website doesn't mean dick, it doesn't say how many actually signed up.
    This space for sale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Back View Post
    We have to count our blessings that we enjoy freedom of speech without fear of oppression in this county.
    (When you can't answer a question for fear of making you or your savior look bad)

  3. #983

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    "In politics, when you have to eat XXXX, you don't nibble," said Democratic strategist Chris Kofinis.

    For Kofinis, the colorful metaphor is universal, meaning it applies to all political catastrophes. In this particular case, Kofinis and other Democrats believe Obama would be wise to admit his like-your-plan-keep-your-plan dodge was a mistake and apologize immediately and conspicuously.

    More...
    That was the wisest thing said on the internet today.

  4. #984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashliana View Post
    Funny how the percentage of people who say they oppose "Obamacare" changes when you ask them if they support the Affordable Care Act, despite being the same thing. Also funny how a large percentage of the voting-but-largely-uninformed conservative/middle electorate opposes "Obamacare," but largely agrees with every aspect of the law if you explain any given mechanic.

    Just goes to show that Fox News and the right-wing radio machine are highly effective in obfuscating the real issues.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/oct...acare-20131001
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-what-it-does/

    Why do you think the Republicans devoted everything they had into taking it down during the shutdown? Because once Americans realize what the law actually does, and that they agree with it, repealing it is an impossibility. The website issues are a huge give-away to the GOP's noise machine, but ultimately, people will forget about technical issues once they get it working.

    Also funny how technical issues with a website somehow translate into "We should repeal the whole thing! Oh. Our idea about fixing the numerous problems the healthcare system had before the law? Uhhhhhhh.. Uhhhhh.... Uhhhhhhhhhh!.. Vouchers? Free market? Herpderp? Crickets?"
    That just shows how biased surveycraft can be.

    You could ask someone "Do you like that your kids are able to be on your insurance for free until they're 27?" They'll say yes. You can then ask someone "Do you think it is right for a poor unmarried childless 18 year old working in construction to pay a higher health insurance premium so that someone else's children, who likely are in graduate school and on the cusp of earning above average incomes, can get free insurance?" They'll say no. You can then ask someone "Do you like that your health insurance now provides free prenatal care?" They'll say yes. You then ask "Should a 62 year old male be forced to buy insurance that provides free prenatal care?" They'll say no.

    Surveys are bullshit, how the questions are phrased entirely dictates the responses of the average citizen who does not have the brain power, or simply time, to think through it when they're talking on the phone while trying to get dinner cooked and the kids are screaming in the background etc.

    Why do you think the Republicans devoted everything they had into taking it down during the shutdown? Because once Americans realize what the law actually does, and that they agree with it, repealing it is an impossibility. The website issues are a huge give-away to the GOP's noise machine, but ultimately, people will forget about technical issues once they get it working.
    ROFL. This law is NEVER going to work, it is fundamentally mathematically flawed. It already is experiencing adverse selection which is going to skew the risk pools to the unhealthy which will result in higher premiums which will further create adverse selection, until it kills itself. This is a fact of nature because they created a mandate with no teeth. Meanwhile, every single year this law is in effect premiums will go up, which will be major national news. It will go over budget because as premiums grow, so do subsidies, that will result in constant budget negotiations in DC, which will be major national news. This is not going to fade into background noise once the website is fixed. This is a perpetual trainwreck.

    Also funny how technical issues with a website somehow translate into "We should repeal the whole thing! Oh. Our idea about fixing the numerous problems the healthcare system had before the law? Uhhhhhhh.. Uhhhhh.... Uhhhhhhhhhh!.. Vouchers? Free market? Herpderp? Crickets?"
    ROFL. Obamacare didn't fix any actual problem. It doesn't even get rid of the problem of uninsured people, the most recent Whitehouse estimates are something like 20% of previous uninsured will get covered (And most of that through medicaid, which should hardly be considered insurance). You've really drunk the koolaid.

    The actual problem is not that people were uninsured, the problem was medical cost inflation causing people to be priced out of the insurance market. Medical care exhibits higher inflation than any other area of our economy (except perhaps higher education, those two are both fucked), for a variety of complex economic reasons. The biggest problem is the third party payment system removes normal pricing signals from the market which results in no normal market controls on price. Additionally there are other problems such as the biased favored tax status for employer provided coverage to the detriment of the individual market. The issue of people over consuming more healthcare than they need, as well as issues with defensive medicine and providers maximizing against payment formulas, but the big underlying cause is the third party payment system. The obvious comparison is to plastic surgery which doesn't result in third party payments. What medical procedure is cheaper than it was 20 years ago? Breast implants, laser eye surgery, liposuction. Meanwhile, what has happened to the cost of a stent? X-Ray? Physical therapy? This is not a coincidence.

    Does Obamacare fix any of that? No, it doesn't. Obamacare is hooking up a blood bags to a guy who slit his wrists while not bothering to sew up his incisions, he is just going to keep on bleeding, and you can keep wasting blood by hooking up more bags, but the smart thing would be to sew up his cuts.

    Providing universal subsidized healthcare is not an inherently bad idea, it is a noble goal. Obamacare is probably the worst possible way to try to achieve that. Republicans need not do anything and it will die, they should have not bothered with the shutdown (though it was telling that when they pared back all demands EXCEPT the one that congress would also need to go into the exchanges, the Democrats still said no. The only reason the shutdown lasted as long as it did was that Obamacare was so great Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid refused to sign up). The thing is going to die by itself. Maybe then we'll no longer have a peacock in the whitehouse and pride will stop getting in the way of real reforms and solutions to actually fix the underlying problem.

  5. #985

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashliana View Post
    Funny how the percentage of people who say they oppose "Obamacare" changes when you ask them if they support the Affordable Care Act, despite being the same thing. Also funny how a large percentage of the voting-but-largely-uninformed conservative/middle electorate opposes "Obamacare," but largely agrees with every aspect of the law if you explain any given mechanic.

    Just goes to show that Fox News and the right-wing radio machine are highly effective in obfuscating the real issues.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/oct...acare-20131001
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...-what-it-does/
    This stupid ass argument again? So if you ask people if they like all of the good things about a law then ask if they like the law as a whole (good AND bad) we're supposed to be surprised that the numbers don't match up?

    That's like me asking:

    "Do you want to see more police officers on the streets?" 99% of people said yes.
    "Do you want potholes fixed faster?" 95% of people said yes.
    "Do you want access to more public transportation?" 89% of people said yes.

    "Do you support a law that does all of that but also increases your taxes by 10%?" 45% of people said yes. WAIT WHAT?! That's because they're all racists!

    Quote Originally Posted by crb View Post
    You could ask someone "Do you like that your kids are able to be on your insurance for free until they're 27?"
    Is that actually how it works? I thought you still have to pay for their insurance.

  6. #986

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    I'm completely unsurprised that Republicans want to replace any and all effort with doing nothing of significance.

  7. #987

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    It's not even a GOP vs. DEM issue. Politicians have been talking about this since Nixon. Both sides have plans for this. All the plans have good and bad aspects (even Ryans, even Romney's). The hysteria right now is strictly partisan fear mongering. That doesn't mean that ACA is going to be the best legislation since the constitution, but it is going to go forward and it's going to work and when it does it will be as important to the american voter as Social Security, Medicare and Medicare Part D (which, like Romneycare, was also a clusterfuck of a rollout).

  8. #988
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    Good read, it touches on a lot of that 4 letter word the Obamacare proponents struggle with (math):

    http://healthblog.ncpa.org/a-woman-m...-of-obamacare/

    For the past 20 years I have been trying to convince my colleagues in the health policy community that managed competition contains perverse economic incentives. These incentives do more than misallocate resources. They create ominous risks for the health and safety of patients with serious medical conditions.

    Consider the editorial in Monday’s Wall Street Journal. If you are inclined to believe Barack Obama’s claim that people losing their insurance are giving up skimpy coverage for much better benefits, read the editorial again, and again, and again.

    The patient in question has a rare form of cancer that is almost always fatal. Yet she is alive, thanks to the efforts of doctors in San Diego, at Stanford University and in Texas. Over the past year, UnitedHealthcare has spent $1.2 million on this woman’s medical expenses. But she has just been informed that her insurance is being cancelled. And in the new California exchange, the only plan that will allow her to continue seeing her San Diego doctors will not pay for the doctors at Stanford or in Texas. There is no reimbursement for out-of-network services.

    Here is my prediction: the kind of coverage this woman had will never again be seen in the individual market in this country.


    You don’t need to be an economist to understand why. Think of a game of musical chairs. The health insurers are the chairs. And not a single one of them wants a patient who will spend $1.2 million of their money.

    The circumstance under which insurance companies will find it in their self-interest to offer the kind of coverage UnitedHealthcare offered is a market that is free to price risk. Only if people are free to pay actuarially fair premiums can insurers offer the kind of coverage that will pay enormous sums of money to deal with illnesses that have a very low probability of occurring. In a community rated system, plans that are appealing to the sick will attract the sick, who will inevitably be paying premiums that are far below the cost of their care.

    Under managed competition, health plans are free to select any premium they choose. But they must charge every entrant the same (community rated) premium, regardless of health status and they must accept all comers. Under these conditions, the plans will make a profit on the relatively healthy and incur losses on the reactively sick. Accordingly, they have an incentive to attract the healthy and avoid the sick.

    As noted in a previous post, most insurers believe that the young and the healthy tend to buy on price, while older and sicker prospects tend to look more closely at which doctors and hospitals are included in the health plan’s network. Accordingly, competitors in the newly created health insurance exchanges are choosing to keep their premiums down by offering very narrow networks. The result is a race to the bottom. The price of a lower premium is less access to care.

    After enrollment, these perverse incentives do not go away. The health plans have an incentive to overprovide to the healthy (to keep the ones they have and attract more of them) and underprovide to the sick (to encourage the exodus of the ones they have and discouraged the enrollment of any more of them).

    I don’t know why this isn’t obvious to other health economists. Nothing involved here is more complicated than Economics 101. Here is a very clear presentation.

    To be fair to others, however, the theoretical predictions we were making were always much more extreme than anything we observed in real world examples of managed competition ― the federal employee health benefits program, similar programs for state employees and state university systems, and systems in such places as the Netherlands, Switzerland and Israel. But remember, most insurance companies have traditionally operated more like Blue Cross look-a-likes rather than dog-eat-dog competitors.

    Until now.

    In competitive markets competition tends to cause the price to change until it equals average cost. Thus, to the extent that price is a measure of the value consumers place on a good or service, the marginal benefit people receive tends to equal the cost of producing that benefit.

    The same tendencies exist under managed competition. Because of community rating, premiums are not allowed to adjust to reflect each enrollee’s expected health care costs, the way they would in a normal insurance market. As a result, community rating is similar to a price control. At the community rated premium, some enrollees will be overcharged and some will be undercharged. And since price cannot vary to match expected costs, competition will cause costs to change until they tend to equal the premium.

    Take those patients who have above-average health care costs and who are therefore “unprofitable.” If premiums are free to rise for those people, insurers will compete them up to the level of the cost of their care. But if the premiums are artificially constrained at a lower level, insurers will tend to compete the cost of their care down to the level of the artificial premium. The reverse pressures exist for those people who have below-average health care costs and who are therefore “profitable.” If the artificial premiums cannot be competed down to the level of average cost, the tendency will be to compete cost up to the level of the artificial premium.

    These conclusions follow from well-known principles of the economics of regulation. In the United States, we have had decades of experience with regulated markets. For example, under regulations imposed by the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) for most of the post-World War II period, the government dictated airline fares. Unable to compete on price, the airlines competed by offering more flights, flights at more convenient times, more spacious seating and other amenities. Price regulation imposed by the CAB was similar to cartel pricing and had the potential to allow the airlines to earn supra-normal profits. However, these profits were competed away as airlines increased their costs by making passenger-pleasing adjustments.

    The reverse tendency emerges when prices are kept artificially low. Under rent control laws, landlords are prohibited from raising their rents to the level of average cost. Since rents cannot rise, quality tends to fall. Landlords tend to allow housing quality to deteriorate until housing costs equal the government-controlled rent.

    A different way of appreciating this result is to consider it in terms of a basic principle taught in all introductory economics courses: when firms are maximizing profits, marginal revenue must equal marginal cost. Under managed competition, marginal revenue (the amount of premium each enrollee brings to a plan) must be the same for every enrollee. That means that marginal cost (the amount the plan spends on health care) will also tend to be the same for every enrollee.

    - See more at: http://healthblog.ncpa.org/a-woman-m...-of-obamacare/
    Incentives matter, incentives are what is wrong with healthcare, and Obamacare doesn't fix those bad incentives, it just adds a whole new layer of bad incentives. It is a bad law. It would have been better to do nothing than pass this, 15% of people might be uninsured (often by choice) vs only what, 12% under obamacare? But you wouldn't have fucked with the care for the rest of the 85% of us.

    We need adults in Washington to agree it needs fixing (and by fixing I mean getting rid of and replacing it with something simple, better, and bipartisan that takes how people respond to incentives into account), and stop clinging to it out of partisanship.

  9. #989

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    Quote Originally Posted by crb View Post
    Surveys are bullshit
    How many times does Nate Silver have to go 50 for 50 before people stop dismissing surveys/polls?
    Hasta pronto, porque la vida no termina aqui...
    America, stop pushing. I know what I'm doing.

  10. #990

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    PC RETARD HALL OF FAME
    Quote Originally Posted by Back The Reigning Retard Champion most consider the GOAT View Post
    3 million more popular votes. I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. Gerrymandering won for Trump.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seran-the 2 time Retard Champion View Post
    Regulating firearms to keep them out of the hands of criminals, the unhinged, etc. meets the first test of the 2nd amendment, 'well-regulated'.

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    You show me a video of me typing that and Ill admit it. (This was the excuse he came up with when he was called out for a really stupid post)

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