Ferguson, Guns, and Cameras

[Vorpos]

Is it though? If Brown was a white kid.. or a Chinese kid.. or any other minority that doesn't fit the required mold... we wouldn't have ever heard about it. But because it was a white cop and a black teen.. it's all over the news.

Racial overtones is why this is a story.



Big difference: Darren Wilson was a cop, so we knew what his role in this was. George Martin wasn't.

Dillon Taylor is a prime example.

[stormcrow]

Honestly I don't care what color you are. If you attack a cop in his car (Brown's DNA was all over the inside of the car) and try and get his gun, expect bad things to happen to you. Not sure why this thing is a story. Guy committed 2 felonies. He strong armed robbed a store (felony) and he assaulted a police officer (felony). I think the question should be asked, had Brown complied with the requests of the officer would he still be alive? Yes he would and he probably would be back on the streets.

Another question I think we need to ask is: He was shot multiple times with a .40 sig. Had the cop been using a 9mm, How many rounds would it have taken to bring this guy down? Maybe police should be issued .50 desert eagles so that way he only get's shot once and people don't get focused on the about of rounds used.

[Vorpos]

Anyone hear rumors about the CNN crew in Ferguson using PMCs like blackwater?

[SHAFT]

To be fair, he does kill a lot of people.

+1 internet points. Very clever.

If I had a 6'4", 292 lb man trying to grab my gun and assaulting me, I would most likely pull my gun and fire it as well if i were a cop.

[Buckwheet]

Is it though? If Brown was a white kid.. or a Chinese kid.. or any other minority that doesn't fit the required mold... we wouldn't have ever heard about it. But because it was a white cop and a black teen.. it's all over the news.

Racial overtones is why this is a story.



Big difference: Darren Wilson was a cop, so we knew what his role in this was. George Martin wasn't.

From my perspective it doesn't matter. If a cop shot anyone and it was reported like this, I would have a problem with it. I took your racial comments to infer that my comments were based on race, which they aren't.

I don't think there is any difference, but you are right there could be. In my mind someone using a firearm regardless if they are a cop or not falls under the same responsibilities. I have been through numerous firearm courses and events and that is why I have that opinion. The first thing I was taught in my police sponsored carry course was that:

If you discharge your firearm, be prepared to be treated like a criminal. You will have your firearms confiscated, you will be arrested, and you will go to jail and be questioned. This came right from the sheriff where I live. He even said things like exercise your 5th amendment, get an attorney, and do not speak to myself or any of my deputies until the lawyer is present. So I guess if the sheriff is going to tell me that stuff I would expect a similar level of treatment of police officers when a shooting seems out of place or strange or you get lots of people reporting stuff like him getting shot in the back or whatever.

[Buckwheet]

From the statements I think Michael Brown was on the attack, I also think Wilson handled it poorly. Obviously this is me as an armchair analyst but there other options on that officer's belt. Guilty of murder? I don't think so. Guilty of manslaughter? Not sure if that's the right thing but a lesser charge than murder, a wrongful death maybe, something that acknowledges Brown started it, Wilson finished it but with better training/judgment it could have been finished with a different outcome.

I understand a lot of people want to make it about race, and maybe it is, again I'm not there, I don't live there so I don't get to see if it is or is not, but for me I'd like to focus on the actions, reactions, and what can be taken away to improve the chances of LEOs doing a better job.

I would just like to add that this sums up my take on it pretty well.

[Vorpos]

9
From the statements I think Michael Brown was on the attack, I also think Wilson handled it poorly. Obviously this is me as an armchair analyst but there other options on that officer's belt. Guilty of murder? I don't think so. Guilty of manslaughter? Not sure if that's the right thing but a lesser charge than murder, a wrongful death maybe, something that acknowledges Brown started it, Wilson finished it but with better training/judgment it could have been finished with a different outcome.

I understand a lot of people want to make it about race, and maybe it is, again I'm not there, I don't live there so I don't get to see if it is or is not, but for me I'd like to focus on the actions, reactions, and what can be taken away to improve the chances of LEOs doing a better job.

After all this I think a lot of cops will be careful not to put themselves in that kind of position. If they don't just quit outright.

[stormcrow]

From my perspective it doesn't matter. If a cop shot anyone and it was reported like this, I would have a problem with it. I took your racial comments to infer that my comments were based on race, which they aren't.

I don't think there is any difference, but you are right there could be. In my mind someone using a firearm regardless if they are a cop or not falls under the same responsibilities. I have been through numerous firearm courses and events and that is why I have that opinion. The first thing I was taught in my police sponsored carry course was that:

If you discharge your firearm, be prepared to be treated like a criminal. You will have your firearms confiscated, you will be arrested, and you will go to jail and be questioned. This came right from the sheriff where I live. He even said things like exercise your 5th amendment, get an attorney, and do not speak to myself or any of my deputies until the lawyer is present. So I guess if the sheriff is going to tell me that stuff I would expect a similar level of treatment of police officers when a shooting seems out of place or strange or you get lots of people reporting stuff like him getting shot in the back or whatever.

Police are trained to handle firearms and authorized to use them in situations which necessitate lethal force. A 6'5 300 lb guy punching you and trying to take your firearm is a lethal threat. Brown's dna was all over the inside of the car and on the gun as well as the officer.

[Buckwheet]

9

After all this I think a lot of cops will be careful not to put themselves in that kind of position. If they don't just quit outright.

I don't think people are going to quit because if they shoot a guy they could be on national TV.

[Kithus]

Brown's dna was all over the inside of the car and on the gun as well as the officer.

He was shot three times at close range. I imagine his DNA was everywhere.

[Buckwheet]

Police are trained to handle firearms and authorized to use them in situations which necessitate lethal force. A 6'5 300 lb guy punching you and trying to take your firearm is a lethal threat. Brown's dna was all over the inside of the car and on the gun as well as the officer.

While I certainly can not say I am as well trained as a police officer, I attend trainings and shoots with police trainers about every two months. I attend a training/shooting club event every month. I am not disputing that Brown's DNA was all over the inside of the car or the officer and even the autopsy said the hand wound was most likely caused while reaching for the gun. None of the changes my opinion that if you carry a firearm and decide to use it everyone should be held to the same standard. Fearing for your life is fearing for your life.

[Tgo01]

Brown's dna was all over the inside of the car and on the gun as well as the officer.

Stop being racist. That's because the police officer was trying to pull a 350 pound man through the window. Duh. Just ask Latrin.

[Parkbandit]

From my perspective it doesn't matter. If a cop shot anyone and it was reported like this, I would have a problem with it. I took your racial comments to infer that my comments were based on race, which they aren't.

But that's the rub.. it has to have a specific racial makeup to actually get reported. Otherwise, it's a buried story on a local news show.. if that.


I don't think there is any difference, but you are right there could be. In my mind someone using a firearm regardless if they are a cop or not falls under the same responsibilities. I have been through numerous firearm courses and events and that is why I have that opinion. The first thing I was taught in my police sponsored carry course was that.

Complete difference in my mind is this: Wilson was a 10 year veteran on the force. He's been trained and has experience with firearms until they are almost 2nd nature to him. He's been put through numerous scenarios and instructed on how to handle the situation. There is no such training for regular citizens. A 3 hour police sponsored carry course 10 years ago isn't even close to the training an officer receives.


If you discharge your firearm, be prepared to be treated like a criminal. You will have your firearms confiscated, you will be arrested, and you will go to jail and be questioned.

lolwut?


This came right from the sheriff where I live. He even said things like exercise your 5th amendment, get an attorney, and do not speak to myself or any of my deputies until the lawyer is present. So I guess if the sheriff is going to tell me that stuff I would expect a similar level of treatment of police officers when a shooting seems out of place or strange or you get lots of people reporting stuff like him getting shot in the back or whatever.

I don't disagree with any of this.

[Parkbandit]

Dillon Taylor is a prime example.

Who?

[Methais]

Who?

Dillon Taylor.

[Vorpos]

Who?

Exactly.

[Methais]

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/body-cam-shows-unarmed-dillon-taylor-shot-da-rules-justified/

It's ok though because he's white.

[stormcrow]

He was shot three times at close range. I imagine his DNA was everywhere.

actually you are wrong. There was only powder residue on Brown's hand, meaning his hand was close enough to the gun to get residue. There was no other powder residue on any other parts of his body where he was shot. I know facts can be tricky when they are not in your favor but please don't stop trying.

[Buckwheet]

But that's the rub.. it has to have a specific racial makeup to actually get reported. Otherwise, it's a buried story on a local news show.. if that.

I never said different. I just said the situation, in general, is what I disagree with.


Complete difference in my mind is this: Wilson was a 10 year veteran on the force. He's been trained and has experience with firearms until they are almost 2nd nature to him. He's been put through numerous scenarios and instructed on how to handle the situation. There is no such training for regular citizens. A 3 hour police sponsored carry course 10 years ago isn't even close to the training an officer receives.

I disagree. There are trainings available to citizens, I have only taken some because they are prohibitively expensive. I agree with you that if you took a single 3 hour course 10 years ago that isn't what I am talking about.


lolwut?

Whats not to understand about this? The sheriff where I live said that. Its not my personal opinion. He makes it pretty well known when he comes to the events, just about every time. The only time he doesn't is when we are sponsoring 1000 yard shoots.


I don't disagree with any of this.

Glad to hear it.

[Ker_Thwap]

Dillon Taylor?

"At the time of Taylor’s shooting, court documents show he had a $25,000 bench warrant for a probation violation in connection with felony robbery and obstructing justice convictions."

Supporting this loser is pretty much like calling the other loser a big teddy bear. Losers gonna lose.

[stormcrow]

Here is a handbook on how not to get shot by the police:

1. Do not commit felonies
2. Listen to what the police tell you.
3. Do not try and assault a cop and get his gun
4. When in doubt follow rules 1 thru 3

[Kithus]

actually you are wrong. There was only powder residue on Brown's hand, meaning his hand was close enough to the gun to get residue. There was no other powder residue on any other parts of his body where he was shot. I know facts can be tricky when they are not in your favor but please don't stop trying.

Facts? Who was going for facts? I just found your choice of phrasing amusing. Every time you said his DNA was everywhere my sick mind kinda chuckled a little. Beyond that I've no horse in this race.

[Atlanteax]

Here is a handbook on how not to get shot by the police:

1. Do not commit felonies
2. Listen to what the police tell you.
3. Do not try and assault a cop and get his gun
4. When in doubt follow rules 1 thru 3

Yep, works even if you are black.

[Buckwheet]

Yep, works even if you are black.

Yeah I mean like that black guy who had no felonies, was getting his ID like the cop told him, wasn't assaulting the cop, and followed rules 1 through 3...got what? Oh yeah shot. I agree Atlanteax...he should have done 1-3 again for good measure. Hah!

[Berubeo21]

Here is a handbook on how not to get shot by the police:

1. Do not commit felonies
2. Listen to what the police tell you.
3. Do not try and assault a cop and get his gun
4. When in doubt follow rules 1 thru 3
Bingo, everything else is bullshit blown out of proportion by Jesse Jackson and Co. With zero facts like usual it has to
Come down to race.

[Jarvan]

Yeah I mean like that black guy who had no felonies, was getting his ID like the cop told him, wasn't assaulting the cop, and followed rules 1 through 3...got what? Oh yeah shot. I agree Atlanteax...he should have done 1-3 again for good measure. Hah!

Was he wearing a hoodie tho?

[Jeril]

They should have just moved forward with a regular trial so all the information could come out on TV across the world instead of being buried in some documents that were released. Typically nothing is released if nobody is indicted I think. So if you want to create trust and transparency you should just do it in the public eye.

There were a lot of questions the public probably wanted answers too and they aren't going to get it easily in a digestible form from those documents. Its going to take a few days for intelligent people to read through it and translate it to the 8th grade level.

The only thing I don't like about this is you are basically saying screw that cops due process just to appease the public. While the release of information could have been handled better isn't that the whole point of the various public relations offices?

[Parkbandit]

I disagree. There are trainings available to citizens, I have only taken some because they are prohibitively expensive. I agree with you that if you took a single 3 hour course 10 years ago that isn't what I am talking about.

What percentage of citizens who own guns, complete the training you are saying you do? Maybe like 1% and I'm being extremely generous.

You aren't being realistic.


Whats not to understand about this? The sheriff where I live said that. Its not my personal opinion. He makes it pretty well known when he comes to the events, just about every time. The only time he doesn't is when we are sponsoring 1000 yard shoots.

We are a nation of laws.. one of our most fundamental legal beliefs is "innocent until proven guilty". You claimed the exact opposite.

[Androidpk]

>Whats not to understand about this? The sheriff where I live said that. Its not my personal opinion. He makes it pretty well known when he comes to the events, just about every time. The only time he doesn't is when we are sponsoring 1000 yard shoots

What kind of rifles are you using for 1000 yards?

[Tenlaar]

We are a nation of laws.. one of our most fundamental legal beliefs is "innocent until proven guilty". You claimed the exact opposite.

Have you not been paying attention to the thread that you're in? That used to be one of our most fundamental legal beliefs. Now, to entirely too many people, you can be guilty even after proven innocent.

[Androidpk]

Have you not been paying attention to the thread that you're in? That used to be one of our most fundamental legal beliefs. Now, to entirely too many people, you can be guilty even after proven innocent.

We are still a nation of laws and not mob rule/justice.

[Gelston]

Have you not been paying attention to the thread that you're in? That used to be one of our most fundamental legal beliefs. Now, to entirely too many people, you can be guilty even after proven innocent.

Guilty in the eyes of public opinion has existed long before our nation has. We are still a nation of laws, because if we weren't, he'd be in jail for murder right now.

[Androidpk]

Guilty in the eyes of public opinion has existed long before our nation has. We are still a nation of laws, because if we weren't, he'd be in jail for murder right now.

Or he'd be hanging from a tree.

[Gelston]

Or he'd be hanging from a tree.

Nah. He is still white, after all.

[Tgo01]

I love this sentence from a news article I read today:

"The National Guard is moving in as demonstrators continue to protest the grand jury decision not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson."

They are still calling this a "protest"?

[Androidpk]

Nah. He is still white, after all.

"Witches" in Salem were white too.

[Tisket]

They should have just moved forward with a regular trial so all the information could come out on TV across the world instead of being buried in some documents that were released. Typically nothing is released if nobody is indicted I think. So if you want to create trust and transparency you should just do it in the public eye.

There were a lot of questions the public probably wanted answers too and they aren't going to get it easily in a digestible form from those documents. Its going to take a few days for intelligent people to read through it and translate it to the 8th grade level.

Bypassing a step in the justice process would be a monumentally bad idea.

[Jarvan]

I love this sentence from a news article I read today:

"The National Guard is moving in as demonstrators continue to protest the grand jury decision not to indict Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson."

They are still calling this a "protest"?

Well, SOME in the news media can't call it a "Riot", because that would sound like the people doing it are somehow bad.

They can't be BAD. An Innocent.. (cough) man was shot dead by the evil police.

[Tgo01]

They can't be BAD. An Innocent.. (cough) man was shot dead by the evil police.

Fuck the police!

No, wait.

[Laviticas]

Now we get " Where were the police and fire department when these businesses were burning?" They were being shot at by the "protesters".

I'm still trying to figure out what this change is we are looking for.

[Jarvan]

Now we get " Where were the police and fire department when these businesses were burning?" They were being shot at by the "protesters".

I'm still trying to figure out what this change is we are looking for.

I am waiting for Holder to investigate the Grand Jury for obvious Racial crimes.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The first thing I was taught in my police sponsored carry course was that:

I have identified the flaw in your argument. You cannot go to a police sponsored carry course unless your intent is to learn how to shoot black teenagers. Amirite?!

[Kithus]

I have identified the flaw in your argument. You cannot go to a police sponsored carry course unless your intent is to learn how to shoot black teenagers. Amirite?!

If you just tell them you'll take shooting an unarmed black teenager under advisement they'll let you in.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I wonder what would happen if a store owner shot and killed some looters in the act.

[Gelston]

"Witches" in Salem were white too.

I am talking 1900s here and lynching.

[Gelston]

I wonder what would happen if a store owner shot and killed some looters in the act.

Not sure on the laws there concerning defense of property. If they feared for their life though, I'd imagine it'd be justified.

[Laviticas]

I had a relative burned at the stake, do I get to claim victim status hence forth?

[Jarvan]

I wonder what would happen if a store owner shot and killed some looters in the act.

If they were black, according to some, you would directly go to trial, no Grand Jury. Also you would be racist.

If they were white... no one would care.

[Laviticas]

Wow this Richard Fowler just can't accept the fact (along with the rest of the science deniers) that the forensic science shows that the street thug went for the officers gun.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

When are they going to arrest Louis Head for inciting a riot.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Also, will there be more riots after the two federal investigations release their findings? This is like a 3 part mini series.

[Laviticas]

I'm not sure there is anything left to burn down, I guess they could start burning their own homes. They even stole food from McDonalds, who does that?

[Tisket]

When are they going to arrest Louis Head for inciting a riot.

Arresting an outraged, grieving family member would be tantamount to pouring gasoline on a bonfire.

[AnticorRifling]

Arresting an outraged, grieving family member would be tantamount to pouring gasoline on a bonfire.

Is that the family member that was yelling burn it down?

[Tisket]

Is that the family member that was yelling burn it down?

Yes.

Not condoning what he said at all but swooping in and arresting him? That would cause another whole shit storm.

[Androidpk]

I had a relative burned at the stake, do I get to claim victim status hence forth?

What was his/her crime?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Arresting an outraged, grieving family member would be tantamount to pouring gasoline on a bonfire.

Maybe he shouldn't have stood on a car and yelled to the crowd multiple times to "Burn this bitch down"...

It's not like there is any question of who it was, or how many times he yelled it... I thought inciting a riot was against the law is all.

In other news http://fox13now.com/2014/11/24/woman-says-were-ready-for-ferguson-accidentally-shoots-self-in-head/

[Tisket]

Inciting a riot is a misdemeanor. Arresting him will do more harm than good.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Oh, other news as well...

http://www.tpnn.com/2014/11/24/the-t-shirt-worn-by-michael-browns-father-will-leave-you-scratching-your-head/

Regarding the Brown family "There was a brawl involving his family over the selling of Michael Brown t-shirts, with the mom upset because the grandmother was ‘not authorized’ to do so. His mother, Lesley McSpadden, is being investigated for felony robbery as a result."

and this website makes fun of his grammar :(

http://www.tpnn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/brown-gone-to-soon.jpg

[Vorpos]

Inciting a riot is a misdemeanor. Arresting him will do more harm than good.

If he got arrested I'd pay money to see George Zimmerman go on live TV and start trolling.

[Laviticas]

What was his/her crime?

From what I understand she was accused of being a witch. Never really looked in to it to much.

[Kithus]

Inciting a riot is a misdemeanor. Arresting him will do more harm than good.

You must spread more etc etc etc. Try not to inject too much common sense here. The locals might not like it.

[Methais]

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10350551_741411765950606_1133106604644169438_n.jpg ?oh=b0bb2e98517c0851c0ed1b74a1738c57&oe=5518E91C

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Inciting a riot is a misdemeanor. Arresting him will do more harm than good.

I've no idea if it is a felony or misdemeanor. I was just trolling - of course it'd be a bad idea to arrest him. Just as it was a bad idea for him to do it. Nobody is a winner in Ferguson, and it'll be very hard to get something positive from this. Bigots expect reactions like what happened last night, reinforcing their opinions and it ruined the national platform they had (that will disappear in a day or two) to make actual change. I did read about some good things happening, but you have to search for them (things like the police accountability meetings, how the government was changing how the cop shop is funded, etc).

[Thondalar]

They should have just moved forward with a regular trial so all the information could come out on TV across the world instead of being buried in some documents that were released. Typically nothing is released if nobody is indicted I think. So if you want to create trust and transparency you should just do it in the public eye.

This isn't how the system works, though. The grand jury reviews evidence and determines whether or not the State would be able to make a case against the defendant. In Missouri, the grand jury consists of 12 members, and 9 of the 12 have to believe there is probable cause to indict on some charge. The standards are a lot lower for a grand jury than a trial jury...all they have to agree on is that there is some chance that a crime was committed. The fact that they couldn't even come up with that much should be a warning sign to the race baiters that they're barking up the wrong tree.

Naturally, people are going to believe what they want to believe, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...in fact, "facts" are likely to make them defend their erroneous positions even more (http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the-misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/).

[Gelston]

From what I understand she was accused of being a witch. Never really looked in to it to much.

Fucking heretics.

Interesting though, the last person killed by the Spanish Inquisition was in 1826. The church wanted him burned at the stake, but the civil authorities had him hanged by the neck until he was dead, dead, dead.... Instead.

His crime was that he was teaching Deism.

[Methais]

Yes.

Not condoning what he said at all but swooping in and arresting him? That would cause another whole shit storm.

What if they had black cops do it?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

What if they had black cops do it?

Don't pick on Tisket, she's right and you know it ;p

[Laviticas]

I blame the moldy rye bread, that shit will fuck you up.

[Warriorbird]

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10350551_741411765950606_1133106604644169438_n.jpg ?oh=b0bb2e98517c0851c0ed1b74a1738c57&oe=5518E91C

Still not actually a picture of Michael Brown.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't mind the verdict. Our legal system is expressly designed to let guilty people go free. I would be a little puzzled that certain people are seizing on the verdict as proof that they were right, but I know that proof is a shell game. I would also be a little puzzled at how ineptly the local authorities handled the release of this information, but this level of ineptitude is par for the course for them.
Strawman Vanquished!

Latrine has proven that all the rural white missouri gun owners are not fighting against the police in the urban, black, Ferguson city.

Responsible gun owners don't go around challenging the police because a thug was shot after robbing a liquor store. I'm not saying the shooting was justified or it wasn't, I wasn't there. Responsible gun owners stand guard with their gun at their shop because upset thugs want to use an excuse to loot and riot.Did the police act tyrannically in the days following the Michael Brown shooting, especially with regards to the freedom of the press, yes or no? Do Missourians have access to private guns, yes or no?
Correlation != causation.

Guess what people with mental illnesses do? They engage in substance abuse at a much higher rate than society.

So, an idiot might poll 1000 people who have mental illness and 1000 people who don't and find that the people with mental illness are more likely to have smoked marijuana, more frequently, than the ones without mental illness. That same idiot might decide that one causes the other. This is not the case. They're also more likely to come from homes with older appliances. Note: older appliances also do not cause mental illness.

Source: I sleep with a psychiatrist.It may interest you to learn that the methodology used by the studies I cited was longitudinal, not cross-sectional. I won't presume to give you advice on pillow talk, but perhaps when not sleeping together you can ask your lover what the difference is.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I kind of wish Sharpton would get hit by a stray bullet.

[~Rocktar~]

Maybe he shouldn't have stood on a car and yelled to the crowd multiple times to "Burn this bitch down"...

It's not like there is any question of who it was, or how many times he yelled it... I thought inciting a riot was against the law is all.

In other news http://fox13now.com/2014/11/24/woman-says-were-ready-for-ferguson-accidentally-shoots-self-in-head/

Darwin demonstrated.

[Thondalar]

I don't mind the verdict. Our legal system is expressly designed to let guilty people go free.

No, it's designed to not convict innocent people. There is a difference.


I would be a little puzzled that certain people are seizing on the verdict as proof that they were right, but I know that proof is a shell game.

And I'm a little puzzled that you still can't admit you were wrong.


I would also be a little puzzled at how ineptly the local authorities handled the release of this information, but this level of ineptitude is par for the course for them.

So then why are you puzzled by it?


Did the police act tyrannically in the days following the Michael Brown shooting, especially with regards to the freedom of the press, yes or no?

Yes.


Do Missourians have access to private guns, yes or no?

Yes.

[kutter]

This isn't how the system works, though. The grand jury reviews evidence and determines whether or not the State would be able to make a case against the defendant. In Missouri, the grand jury consists of 12 members, and 9 of the 12 have to believe there is probable cause to indict on some charge. The standards are a lot lower for a grand jury than a trial jury...all they have to agree on is that there is some chance that a crime was committed. The fact that they couldn't even come up with that much should be a warning sign to the race baiters that they're barking up the wrong tree.

Naturally, people are going to believe what they want to believe, regardless of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...in fact, "facts" are likely to make them defend their erroneous positions even more (http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/07/12/exposed-to-facts-the-misinformed-believe-lies-more-strongly/).

The standard is actually pretty low, it is probable cause, there are a number of different definitions, but loosely it states, 'The belief by a reasonable and prudent person, based upon articulate facts that a crime has been committed.' They need 9 of the 12 to agree to this standard, that was all, but they could not get it. The system worked exactly how it was supposed to. People keep screaming about cross exam the cop, do not provide all the evidence to the grand jury. This is all people that want to limit the scope to fit their narrative to obtain the result they want, it is not a search for the truth, which is the responsibility of the district attorney.

So as far as whomever said not being indicted is not the same as being innocent, actually it is, he did not meet a lower threshold than is required in a jury trial, so if someone is proven innocent there, then he has to be innocent here.

[Gelston]

I don't mind the verdict. Our legal system is expressly designed to let guilty people go free. I would be a little puzzled that certain people are seizing on the verdict as proof that they were right, but I know that proof is a shell game.

So, he was guilty in your eyes, no matter what the legal system said. What a piece of work you are.

Maybe the cop should have just let the 6'4" 300 poundish man beat him and take his gun and shoot him. Of course, then it would have only been a scrolling headline at the bottom of the screen.

Where is all the outrage over a 12 year old KID recently getting killed by the police?

Or the 13 year old KID that was killed in October of last year?

[RichardCranium]

So, he was guilty in your eyes, no matter what the legal system said. What a piece of work you are.

Maybe the cop should have just let the 6'4" 300 poundish man beat him and take his gun and shoot him. Of course, then it would have only been a scrolling headline at the bottom of the screen.

Where is all the outrage over a 12 year old KID recently getting killed by the police?

Or the 13 year old KID that was killed in October of last year?

If we had universal surveillance we would know for sure if the officer is guilty or not.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Where is all the outrage...

over the 20-something year old killed in Ferguson last night?

[Androidpk]

If we had universal surveillance we would know for sure if the officer is guilty or not.

There could be video of Brown assaulting the cop first and going for his gun and some people would still be outraged over his death.

[Androidpk]

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10350551_741411765950606_1133106604644169438_n.jpg ?oh=b0bb2e98517c0851c0ed1b74a1738c57&oe=5518E91C

He isn't holding that gat sideways, must be photoshopped.

[Methais]

Still not actually a picture of Michael Brown.

You're not waywardgs. Come back when you are.

[Warriorbird]

You're not waywardgs. Come back when you are.

He's the only one who's supposed to catch you being fooled by online media? Got it.

[Tgo01]

I thought everyone was screaming "I am Michael Brown" so I guess technically that could be Michael Brown.

[Methais]

He's the only one who's supposed to catch you being fooled by online media? Got it.

I couldn't find a clickbait site for him to froth over, so I had to find the next best thing.

THANKS FOR RUINING EVERYTHING, WHAT AM I GONNA DO NOW?

Wait, I got it!

Mike Brown Criminal Arrest Record Since Turning 18

August 19th, 2014

Author: National Office

Note that he also has a juvie criminal record that is sealed.
Description: Burglary – 1st Degree { Felony B RSMo: 569.160 }

Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 1401000

OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD
Description: Armed Criminal Action { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 571.015 }

Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 3101000

this is bait for waywardgs

OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD
Description: Assault 1st Degree – Serious Physical Injury { Felony A RSMo: 565.050 }

Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 1301100

OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD
Description: Armed Criminal Action { Felony Unclassified RSMo: 571.015 }

Date: 11/02/2013 Code: 3101000

OCN: AJ006207 Arresting Agency: ST ANN PD

Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cfc_1408458094#w7y2scLR0BQ1H2FG.99

[Latrinsorm]

No, it's designed to not convict innocent people. There is a difference.Yes. A semantic one. ⌐■_■
And I'm a little puzzled that you still can't admit you were wrong.What specifically was I wrong about that this jury verdict demonstrates? For instance, did I ever say the officer was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? This is the part where you don't bother to look back at what I actually said because you know I'm wrong, and remember it as yet another time I didn't look at the facts. Ironic, no? :)
So then why are you puzzled by it?The formulation "would X but Y" denotes that X will not occur. If I say I would give you $20 but I just spent it on hookers and blow, you would not expect me to then hand you a twenty dollar bill.
Yes. Yes.That's all this thread is (supposed to be) about. If we say correlation is not causation, a lack of correlation is surely even less so.
So as far as whomever said not being indicted is not the same as being innocent, actually it is, he did not meet a lower threshold than is required in a jury trial, so if someone is proven innocent there, then he has to be innocent here.People aren't proven innocent in a jury trial.
So, he was guilty in your eyes, no matter what the legal system said. What a piece of work you are.I prefer the term "rugged individual", as I can make my own decisions and don't need daddy government to tell me what to believe. If the legal system or anyone else would like to provide additional evidence I am always happy to consider it. If they merely want to tell me their opinion on the matter, why should I care?

[Gelston]

Yes. A semantic one. ⌐■_■What specifically was I wrong about that this jury verdict demonstrates? For instance, did I ever say the officer was proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? This is the part where you don't bother to look back at what I actually said because you know I'm wrong, and remember it as yet another time I didn't look at the facts. Ironic, no? :)The formulation "would X but Y" denotes that X will not occur. If I say I would give you $20 but I just spent it on hookers and blow, you would not expect me to then hand you a twenty dollar bill.That's all this thread is (supposed to be) about. If we say correlation is not causation, a lack of correlation is surely even less so.People aren't proven innocent in a jury trial.I prefer the term "rugged individual", as I can make my own decisions and don't need daddy government to tell me what to believe. If the legal system or anyone else would like to provide additional evidence I am always happy to consider it. If they merely want to tell me their opinion on the matter, why should I care?

The burden of proof is on them to show that they officer was wrong. As with any other time someone stands to be indicted for murder. The words innocent until proven guilty mean jack shit to you I guess.

Prove to me you aren't a serial chicken sodomist.

[SHAFT]

I see nothing wrong with the grand jury decision. I would've shot mike brown in the head too. The fact that he's black means nothing. Asian, white, Hispanic, middle eastern, whatever. If I have a gun and a man who has 82 lbs on me is grabbing for that gun and showing he wants to hurt me, he's likely to get shot.

[Laviticas]

Latrin, I didn't know you had an acting career too:7100

[Jarvan]

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10350551_741411765950606_1133106604644169438_n.jpg ?oh=b0bb2e98517c0851c0ed1b74a1738c57&oe=5518E91C

The Media likes to use pictures from when they were 12 years old to try to show their angelic side.

[Ker_Thwap]

The Media likes to use pictures from when they were 12 years old to try to show their angelic side.

What kind of person substitutes pictures of Jodah Cain for Michael Brown? Tell me about what kind of agenda that kind of person might be pursuing?

[Tgo01]

Just read a news report that this was the first time Officer Wilson had ever fired his weapon in the line of duty.

Obviously this racist piece of shit cop was busy choking black teens to death prior to that day.

[Latrinsorm]

The burden of proof is on them to show that they officer was wrong. As with any other time someone stands to be indicted for murder. The words innocent until proven guilty mean jack shit to you I guess.I was asked what I thought happened, and I answered. I was not asked what I could prove in a court of law or even before a grand jury, so the findings of such proceedings are irrelevant to what I thought (and still think) happened. Despite what you and others may believe, the purpose of a system of law is not to find the truth.
Prove to me you aren't a serial chicken sodomist.There are no eyewitnesses claiming I am, I do not now and have not ever belonged to an organization whose general conduct would support that allegation, and there is no forensic evidence linking me to chickens in any way. By contrast, there were eyewitnesses claiming the shooting was unjustified, both police departments the officer belonged to are demonstrably questionable, and everyone agrees that the officer shot Michael Brown. Hence, I can coherently believe the accusation of manslaughter made against the officer and disbelieve the accusation of chicken loving made against me.
What kind of person substitutes pictures of Jodah Cain for Michael Brown? Tell me about what kind of agenda that kind of person might be pursuing?The kind of person who is in the pocket of Big Soft Drink.

[crb]

over the 20-something year old killed in Ferguson last night?

Oh shit I was just thinking "at least no one got killed last night."

Stay classy Ferguson.

[Gelston]

I was asked what I thought happened, and I answered. I was not asked what I could prove in a court of law or even before a grand jury, so the findings of such proceedings are irrelevant to what I thought (and still think) happened. Despite what you and others may believe, the purpose of a system of law is not to find the truth.There are no eyewitnesses claiming I am, I do not now and have not ever belonged to an organization whose general conduct would support that allegation, and there is no forensic evidence linking me to chickens in any way. By contrast, there were eyewitnesses claiming the shooting was unjustified, both police departments the officer belonged to are demonstrably questionable, and everyone agrees that the officer shot Michael Brown. Hence, I can coherently believe the accusation of manslaughter made against the officer and disbelieve the accusation of chicken loving made against me.The kind of person who is in the pocket of Big Soft Drink.

Admit you were wrong already.

[Tgo01]

Admit you were wrong already.

Earlier Latrin basically said he knows more than the forensic experts so I don't see him admitting to being wrong just because the stupid grand jury decided not to indict him.

[crb]

Do Missourians have access to private guns, yes or no?.

Is Missouri on the Mississippi River? Is Missouri the setting for Gone Girl? Do people from Missouri pronounce the name of their state with a stupid made up A at the end? Is any of this relevant?

[crb]

Earlier Latrin basically said he knows more than the forensic experts so I don't see him admitting to being wrong just because the stupid grand jury decided not to indict him.

Don't you mean she? Latrine is a girl. Right?

[Tgo01]

Don't you mean she? Latrine is a girl. Right?

No. He just has a girl crush on that Kina chick.

[SHAFT]

Here's a video of Mike Browns stepfather inciting a riot and urging his own community to be burned. Clearly we're dealing with classy people.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/crime/2014/11/25/sot-michael-brown-mom-reaction.cnn.html?c=mobile-homepage-t

[crb]

No. He just has a girl crush on that Kina chick.

WTF? But he sent a picture of a chick, and I figured it had to be her/him because no one would lie about that. I mean seriously, who sends this picture as their fake self?

http://www.pleasegodno.com/uploads/FatGirl.jpg

If you're going to fake it.... I mean geeze that is just wrong.

[Tgo01]

Here's a video of Mike Browns stepfather inciting a riot and urging his own community to be burned. Clearly we're dealing with classy people.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/crime/2014/11/25/sot-michael-brown-mom-reaction.cnn.html?c=mobile-homepage-t

He's probably just mad there are no deep pockets they could bully into giving him a multi million dollar settlement like Trayvon Martin's parents.

[Androidpk]

No. He just has a girl crush on that Kina chick.

Crush seems like an understatement considering he knit a sweater with her name on it.

[Tgo01]

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1390643_823561954368104_5133243865555198011_n.jpg? oh=c1ce37f8d06ca49649240fb4b098d8a7&oe=5511C68F

[Tgo01]

WTF? But he sent a picture of a chick, and I figured it had to be her/him because no one would lie about that. I mean seriously, who sends this picture as their fake self?

http://www.pleasegodno.com/uploads/FatGirl.jpg

If you're going to fake it.... I mean geeze that is just wrong.

That could be a guy.

[Androidpk]

That could be a guy.

It could be you!

[Tgo01]

It could be you!

Could be!

[Buckwheet]

>Whats not to understand about this? The sheriff where I live said that. Its not my personal opinion. He makes it pretty well known when he comes to the events, just about every time. The only time he doesn't is when we are sponsoring 1000 yard shoots

What kind of rifles are you using for 1000 yards?

I shoot in a group of guys so we can share around some fire arms. Most of them have remington 700s in different flavors and some 7mm. I don't really like using them much.

I have a Sako TRG 42 with a Nightforce NXS 5.5-22X56 on .338. My teacher, Bill, has a Accuracy International .338 with the same optics but he also has some crazy optics package he doesn't let anyone else shoot with.

Then we have a basic savage arms 111 for backup. We are thinking about going in on a MRAD with the optional BORS ballistic package for the nightforces. Bill says he found a guy who can build us a better rifle than either of the ones we own, just waiting to get back on pricing. I am practicing for my first Elk hunt. Hopefully I get set in time for next year.

[Androidpk]

The MRAD and BORS is certainly a potent combination but you guys should get one of these setups :D

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-rifle-brings-auto-aim-to-the-real-world/

[Jarvan]

What I don't understand is...

The grand Jury said there was no charges that should be brought against him. based on the evidence, he shouldn't even go to trial.

Yet... Holder says that Racial crimes are still being looked into. WTF is wrong with Holder? IS it a racial crime because the CRIMINAL was black? Or is it a racial crime because... they feel that have to try to find something to appease their black voters?

Can we make it a racial crime every time a black person kills a non black person? Cause Holder certainly thinks it could be when the opposite is true.

Do we have another 2 years of this bullshit race crap with the new AG as well? I mean, I have heard her touted as a "civil rights advocate and Lawyer". Kinda sounds like another 2 years of everything being about race.

[Warriorbird]

What I don't understand is...

The grand Jury said there was no charges that should be brought against him. based on the evidence, he shouldn't even go to trial.

Yet... Holder says that Racial crimes are still being looked into. WTF is wrong with Holder? IS it a racial crime because the CRIMINAL was black? Or is it a racial crime because... they feel that have to try to find something to appease their black voters?

Can we make it a racial crime every time a black person kills a non black person? Cause Holder certainly thinks it could be when the opposite is true.

Do we have another 2 years of this bullshit race crap with the new AG as well? I mean, I have heard her touted as a "civil rights advocate and Lawyer". Kinda sounds like another 2 years of everything being about race.

Have you considered that perhaps some other people have a different perspective on and or experience of race than you do?

[Androidpk]

What I don't understand is...

The grand Jury said there was no charges that should be brought against him. based on the evidence, he shouldn't even go to trial.

Yet... Holder says that Racial crimes are still being looked into. WTF is wrong with Holder? IS it a racial crime because the CRIMINAL was black? Or is it a racial crime because... they feel that have to try to find something to appease their black voters?

Can we make it a racial crime every time a black person kills a non black person? Cause Holder certainly thinks it could be when the opposite is true.

Do we have another 2 years of this bullshit race crap with the new AG as well? I mean, I have heard her touted as a "civil rights advocate and Lawyer". Kinda sounds like another 2 years of everything being about race.

Seems like it is just being done to appease certain voters. There won't be any federal charges against Wilson.

[Jarvan]

Have you considered that perhaps some other people have a different perspective on and or experience of race than you do?

You mean people that insert race into everything Like Holder and the President does?

[Thondalar]

Have you considered that perhaps some other people have a different perspective on and or experience of race than you do?

Why should that matter? Either it's wrong or it's right. If it's right, it needs to be applied evenly to all cases. If it's wrong, they need to knock it off.

[Warriorbird]

You mean people that insert race into everything Like Holder and the President does?

I know some people who insert Obama into everything. You probably feel you have perfectly valid reasons for your obsession too, and there's probably something to some of them.


Why should that matter? Either it's wrong or it's right. If it's right, it needs to be applied evenly to all cases. If it's wrong, they need to knock it off.

The two documentable areas of racial bias in our justice system are possession charges and chance of receiving the death penalty. That doesn't mean that people who have the perception of the situation being otherwise are terrible evil people.

[Gelston]

Any of yall listening to the scanner tonight?

[Thondalar]

The two documentable areas of racial bias in our justice system are possession charges and chance of receiving the death penalty. That doesn't mean that people who have the perception of the situation being otherwise are terrible evil people.

Bias in what manner? I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe it's somehow the white man's fault that more criminals are black.

[Androidpk]

Any of yall listening to the scanner tonight?

I'm being vigilant in case any of the trouble spills over into my town in New Hampshire. Nah, who am I kidding. This place is 99.99% white.

[Gelston]

I'm being vigilant in case any of the trouble spills over into my town in New Hampshire. Nah, who am I kidding. This place is 99.99% white.

The Missouri State Police one is what I have on. Last night it was crazy, but it has died down tonight. Had shots fired again though.

[Warriorbird]

Bias in what manner? I'm sorry, but I refuse to believe it's somehow the white man's fault that more criminals are black.

According to Pew's statistical research (and they have no ideology) you will draw 20% more time for possession when black with equivalent background/attorney and you are 20% more likely to get life in prison over the death penalty.

The people who perceive more aren't bad people.

[Gelston]

The restraint that has been shown by the Staties is incredible though. They have been pelted by rocks, responded to "heavy" gunfire, Arrested folks who were less than compliant... They are the police we expect police to be.

[Warriorbird]

The restraint that has been shown by the Staties is incredible though. They have been pelted by rocks, responded to "heavy" gunfire, Arrested folks who were less than compliant... They are the police we expect police to be.

They've done an excellent job.

[SHAFT]

Is Missouri on the Mississippi River? Is Missouri the setting for Gone Girl? Do people from Missouri pronounce the name of their state with a stupid made up A at the end? Is any of this relevant?

Missour-a. I was listening to cnn on sirius earlier and they kept saying missour-a.

[Gelston]

Missour-a. I was listening to cnn on sirius earlier and they kept saying missour-a.
I've always called it Misery.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ferguson idiots should read up on what the Watts riots impact was on the local economy.

[Gelston]

Ferguson idiots should read up on what the Watts riots impact was on the local economy.

Hey buddy, they aren't riots. They are protests.

And I bet the majority of them aren't from Ferguson, so they don't care.

[Tgo01]

Burn this bitch to the ground!

I read earlier that most of the eyewitnesses were older people who backed up the officer's side of things and were never interviewed by the media and these older people accused younger people of spreading false stories about how Brown was shot after he had surrendered.

Sounds like it's a generational issue at hand here and unfortunately the current older generation isn't going to be around too much longer to help keep the young shit heads in line.

[Jarvan]

Burn this bitch to the ground!

I read earlier that most of the eyewitnesses were older people who backed up the officer's side of things and were never interviewed by the media and these older people accused younger people of spreading false stories about how Brown was shot after he had surrendered.

Sounds like it's a generational issue at hand here and unfortunately the current older generation isn't going to be around too much longer to help keep the young shit heads in line.

That's because a large portion of the younger generation venerate gang bangers, criminals, and hoodlums. Or they are one. They also think they are entitled, and everything in life is "whitey keeping them down".

The Sad thing is.. the people who were REALLY kept down by "whitey" tend to be the more honest citizens in that group of people.

Little clarification. The first two sentences apply to all kids really. Generally tho, I doubt that a white teenager thinks that "whitey" is keeping him down. Then again, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Tgo01]

Some reporter claimed he was robbed at gunpoint near the "protests."

Too funny.

[Methais]

http://i.imgur.com/gOxslCO.jpg

[Back]

http://i.imgur.com/gOxslCO.jpg

You're a riot.

[Methais]

You're a riot.

I see what you did there.

[Jarvan]

You're a riot.

I have to say, other then your thoughts on the Native American situation, this is the funniest thing you have ever said.

[Wrathbringer]

http://i.imgur.com/gOxslCO.jpg

Silly negroes. Whoever is their tribal leader needs to get his uneducated unemployed masses under control. Obama?

[Berubeo21]

Just imagine if this grand jury came with this decision before the recently elections. It would have been a very different outcome I think. I also think is was dragged out this long for that exact reason. Not all Liberals are looters but all looters are liberal.

[Moonwitch]

Ferguson idiots should read up on what the Watts riots impact was on the local economy.


Most of the rioters weren't even from the area, what do they care? We were watching it on TV and they said out of 10 people they checked only one was from Missouri. My sister is one of the staunchest conservatives I've ever seen and she thinks Obama wanted riots so he can impose martial law and be king of America. The thing I find hilarious is she's a registered democrat and has been for 30 years.

[Buckwheet]

The MRAD and BORS is certainly a potent combination but you guys should get one of these setups :D

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-rifle-brings-auto-aim-to-the-real-world/

That seems like it takes all the fun out of it. I wouldn't want to take it much into the wet weather either.

[Methais]

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/s720x720/10830866_10152604412803473_8597966840051187854_o.j pg

https://www.facebook.com/fern.fuego/posts/306165839582306

Is she racist? Or an Aunt Jemima?

Or is she correct?

[Parkbandit]

https://www.facebook.com/fern.fuego/posts/306165839582306

Is she racist? Or an Aunt Jemima?

Or is she correct?

She's not black enough to have a real opinion.

[RichardCranium]

According to Pew's statistical research (and they have no ideology) you will draw 20% more time for possession when black with equivalent background/attorney and you are 20% more likely to get life in prison over the death penalty.

The people who perceive more aren't bad people.

It has been my experience that this has much more to do with class than race.

[Parkbandit]

It has been my experience that this has much more to do with class than race.

Oh please.. what would you know about class?

[RichardCranium]

Oh please.. what would you know about class?

What the disengage button looks like for the hunter class, for starters.

[Parkbandit]

What the disengage button looks like for the hunter class, for starters.

Sure I do.. it looks like this:


http://33.media.tumblr.com/944bacf18685491e26b987137c4b905c/tumblr_n2gibsirRh1qlk7obo1_250.gif

[Methais]

What the disengage button looks like for the hunter class, for starters.

http://i.imgur.com/QstNf5l.gif

[Jarvan]

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/t31.0-8/s720x720/10830866_10152604412803473_8597966840051187854_o.j pg

https://www.facebook.com/fern.fuego/posts/306165839582306

Is she racist? Or an Aunt Jemima?

Or is she correct?

Sounds like she might be conservative, so obviously she isn't black.

[Latrinsorm]

Admit you were wrong already.As I asked Thondalar, about what specifically was I wrong?
Earlier Latrin basically said he knows more than the forensic experts so I don't see him admitting to being wrong just because the stupid grand jury decided not to indict him."Basically said" in the sense of "did not at all say", sure. I agreed with all the forensic experts. Should I have just agreed with the one who backed up your position and ignored the others? That doesn't sound like me.
The grand Jury said there was no charges that should be brought against him. based on the evidence, he shouldn't even go to trial. Yet... Holder says that Racial crimes are still being looked into.The state and federal criminal justice systems can bring different charges. Specifically, only the federal government can bring charges for violating a federal civil rights act.
Crush seems like an understatement considering he knit a sweater with her name on it.It was more of a purling motion... I mean uh, it's official merchandise! It was a limited run so you people can no longer acquire one, but she offers a wide range of other options (http://shop.kinagrannis.com/collections/apparel)! I highly recommend the sunset shirt, elite fabric:
http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0044/0002/products/kinasunset_1024x1024.png?v=1401987755

[Buckwheet]

Bypassing a step in the justice process would be a monumentally bad idea.

Sorry to come back to this so late.

So first of all, a grand jury is not a requirement to go to trial. So this wouldn't be "skipping a step". Not every trial has a grand jury called before they decide if they should be indicted. The prosecutor can skip that already.

The catch being the prosecutor has to be willing to go to trial.

[Lord Orbstar]

Buckweet, the prosecutor has to be more than willing to go to trial. He has to be certain the person he is prosecuting is guilty and he must be reasonably sure he will win. A criminal trial is the last step in a line of procedure. grand jury, preliminary hearings, DA review, the initial police report/investigation, etc. The case was not made, so Wilson is innocent. You do not send people to trial to "see" if they are innocent. That is what the steps before trial are for. It is Due Process and a Constitutional Right. We do not imprison and put people on trial without rock solid evidence (as a rule anyway). I know it is not perfect and some cases are mishandled.

If I, as a cop, am forced to kill someone, I do not expect to be arrested and put on trial to find out if i did it right or wrong. That is what investigations are for.

[Velfi]

We do not imprison and put people on trial without rock solid evidence (as a rule anyway). I know it is not perfect and some cases are mishandled.

You are just so precious.

[Parkbandit]

Sorry to come back to this so late.

So first of all, a grand jury is not a requirement to go to trial. So this wouldn't be "skipping a step". Not every trial has a grand jury called before they decide if they should be indicted. The prosecutor can skip that already.

The catch being the prosecutor has to be willing to go to trial.

Given the amount of evidence that is now coming to light.. it seems unlikely Officer Wilson would be found guilty.

[Buckwheet]

Given the amount of evidence that is now coming to light.. it seems unlikely Officer Wilson would be found guilty.

Thanks for reinforcing my first point. They should have bypassed a grand jury step and just went with a regular trial so that all the information would be publicly available in a easy to digest format. Since that is what they ended up doing anyways to some extent.

[Gelston]

Sorry to come back to this so late.

So first of all, a grand jury is not a requirement to go to trial. So this wouldn't be "skipping a step". Not every trial has a grand jury called before they decide if they should be indicted. The prosecutor can skip that already.

The catch being the prosecutor has to be willing to go to trial.

Except for in those states where grand juries are required.

[Buckwheet]

Buckweet, the prosecutor has to be more than willing to go to trial. He has to be certain the person he is prosecuting is guilty and he must be reasonably sure he will win. A criminal trial is the last step in a line of procedure. grand jury, preliminary hearings, DA review, the initial police report/investigation, etc. The case was not made, so Wilson is innocent. You do not send people to trial to "see" if they are innocent. That is what the steps before trial are for. It is Due Process and a Constitutional Right. We do not imprison and put people on trial without rock solid evidence (as a rule anyway). I know it is not perfect and some cases are mishandled.

If I, as a cop, am forced to kill someone, I do not expect to be arrested and put on trial to find out if i did it right or wrong. That is what investigations are for.

Man its getting thick in here.

So does anyone remember when Aaron Hernandez went before a judge and it was televised? He was handcuffed, he was put in jail, the evidence was presented to the judge. The judge said..yup there is enough evidence to move forward.

That is what they should have done instead of a behind closed doors grand jury filled with all sorts of secrecy. It would have been over and done with in like..3 days not 3 months.

[Tenlaar]

Thanks for reinforcing my first point. They should have bypassed a grand jury step and just went with a regular trial so that all the information would be publicly available in a easy to digest format. Since that is what they ended up doing anyways to some extent.

So every cop that shoots somebody who is actively engaged in criminal activity should be subjected to a lengthy murder trial? Really?

[Tgo01]

"Basically said" in the sense of "did not at all say", sure. I agreed with all the forensic experts. Should I have just agreed with the one who backed up your position and ignored the others? That doesn't sound like me.

Latrin, you and I both know you said it was "impossible" for Brown to have been reaching for the cop's gun even though the experts said that was a possibility. You have been caught in another one of your classic lies. Please apologize and shake my hand like a man.

[Buckwheet]

Except for in those states where grand juries are required.

Which.....we aren't talking about here.


Does a state prosecutor have to use a grand jury in all criminal cases?

No. The prosecutor could charge Wilson with a crime if the prosecutor believes there is probable cause. In that case, Wilson would have the right to a preliminary hearing in open court where there would be a chance to cross-examine witnesses. Goldman says, “Surprisingly the preliminary hearing might be better for defendant, worse for prosecution since where there is a preliminary hearing, the witnesses appear in public, the defense gets in effect a free deposition.”

McCulloch’s office says slightly less than half of the criminal cases go through grand juries. Marcia McCormick, who teaches criminal law at Saint Louis University Law School, says most of the high-level felonies in St. Louis County go through the grand jury. In addition, grand juries are almost always used in cases of alleged police brutality because they allow the prosecutor to gauge the credibility of witnesses.

[Vorpos]

Man its getting thick in here.

So does anyone remember when Aaron Hernandez went before a judge and it was televised? He was handcuffed, he was put in jail, the evidence was presented to the judge. The judge said..yup there is enough evidence to move forward.

That is what they should have done instead of a behind closed doors grand jury filled with all sorts of secrecy. It would have been over and done with in like..3 days not 3 months.

So go to the prosecutors house and pontificate.

[Buckwheet]

So every cop that shoots somebody who is actively engaged in criminal activity should be subjected to a lengthy murder trial? Really?

Yes because that is exactly what I said. Murder Trial.

Moron.

[Lord Orbstar]

Honestly, I do not think it would have made it past the DA review. He was passing the buck by kicking it to the grand jury in order to avoid being accused of just "sweeping it under the rug". It was a sad, unfortunate, but legal shooting. He used the Grand Jury to mitigate riots and response I think...well that didnt work now did it? The bigger story here is not Brown, who should have been shot. It is the mistrust and hostility and entire segment of the population feels with the police. That segment feels targeted by the police unfairly. I would dismiss their concerns as bullshit, but I have seen and experienced corrupt or racist cops in New Orleans and East Palo Alto. However, most cops only target those that break the law. If 70% of arrests (made up stat for illustration purposes) are of one demographic that makes that demographic mad..and they raise their children to fear police. then 70% of those fearful kids have kids and are arrested too. and they raise their kids to dislike the police because of all the bad interactions and drama they saw as mom or dad was arrested. In other words, this an issue that feeds on itself in a loop. It takes good hearted, exceptional parenting to raise children that will break that cycle or avoid the pitfalls that lead to it.

The issue in Ferguson at its base level is not law enforcment based, it is sociology based and will be fixed there. In the mean time, however, law enforcement has a job to do and we will do it: reach out to the community, represent them, and keep the peace. That part includes K9s, pepperspray and riot gear sometimes.

[Tgo01]

The issue in Ferguson at its base level is not law enforcment based, it is sociology based and will be fixed there. In the mean time, however, law enforcement has a job to do and we will do it: reach out to the community, represent them, and keep the peace. That part includes K9s, pepperspray and riot gear sometimes.

And drones and tanks.

[Buckwheet]

Honestly, I do not think it would have made it past the DA review. He was passing the buck by kicking it to the grand jury in order to avoid being accused of just "sweeping it under the rug". It was a sad, unfortunate, but legal shooting. He used the Grand Jury to mitigate riots and response I think...well that didnt work now did it? The bigger story here is not Brown, who should have been shot. It is the mistrust and hostility and entire segment of the population feels with the police. That segment feels targeted by the police unfairly. I would dismiss their concerns as bullshit, but I have seen and experienced corrupt or racist cops in New Orleans and East Palo Alto. However, most cops only target those that break the law. If 70% of arrests (made up stat for illustration purposes) are of one demographic that makes that demographic mad..and they raise their children to fear police. then 70% of those fearful kids have kids and are arrested too. and they raise their kids to dislike the police because of all the bad interactions and drama they saw as mom or dad was arrested. In other words, this an issue that feeds on itself in a loop. It takes good hearted, exceptional parenting to raise children that will break that cycle or avoid the pitfalls that lead to it.

The issue in Ferguson at its base level is not law enforcment based, it is sociology based and will be fixed there. In the mean time, however, law enforcement has a job to do and we will do it: reach out to the community, represent them, and keep the peace. That part includes K9s, pepperspray and riot gear sometimes.

I always hate agreeing with you, but yes I believe in this case the prosecutor didn't have the balls to just charge him with a crime and do the public/open preliminary hearing and decided to drag this thing out for three months. Even if the crime was as simple as unlawful discharge of a firearm.

[Lord Orbstar]

Man its getting thick in here.

So does anyone remember when Aaron Hernandez went before a judge and it was televised? He was handcuffed, he was put in jail, the evidence was presented to the judge. The judge said..yup there is enough evidence to move forward.

That is what they should have done instead of a behind closed doors grand jury filled with all sorts of secrecy. It would have been over and done with in like..3 days not 3 months.

Aaron Hernandez had been investigated, thought to be guilty by the Detectives who wrote a report and requested a warrant for his arrest. Then a judge read it and looked at all the evidence and issued that warrant. Then he was arrested and given a preliminary hearing by a judge who again heard the evidence and anything the defense had to say. Then that judge decided there was cause to believe Aaron had commited the crimes so he held him over for trial. Where he was convicted. You do not simply arrest someone and send them to trial. That is against the Constitution.

[Buckwheet]

Aaron Hernandez had been investigated, thought to be guilty by the Detectives who wrote a report and requested a warrant for his arrest. Then a judge read it and looked at all the evidence and issued that warrant. Then he was arrested and given a preliminary hearing by a judge who again heard the evidence and anything the defense had to say. Then that judge decided there was cause to believe Aaron had commited the crimes so he held him over for trial. Where he was convicted. You do not simply arrest someone and send them to trial. That is against the Constitution.

Okay so lets look at the cop.

Could a dective, based upon the eyewitness accounts at the time, reasonably conclude that a crime had been committed? I think yes. Otherwise there would have been no grand jury and they would have just said no possibility of indictment.

Then a judge read it and looked at all the evidence and issued that warrant. - This could/should have happened with the cop. Maybe the Judge at this time feels there isn't enough to issue the warrant. Okay.

Then he was arrested and given a preliminary hearing by a judge who again heard the evidence and anything the defense had to say. - FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

This last part is what I keep talking about. The preliminary...TRIAL. Not murder trial, not violating civil rights trial, but...the preliminary trial.

Where they would have called witnesses like the fucks who said the cop stood over him and shot a bunch of bullets into Brown's back. And made them perjure themselves on the stand when they showed the medical examiners report. And then everyone would have seen the bullshit right in front of their eyes. Which is what I have been saying all along.

Sometimes I feel like we aren't even speaking the same language.

[Buckwheet]

Also, it doesn't matter in this case because MO state law allows you to shoot a fleeing criminal who just committed a felony.



A law enforcement officer in effecting an arrest or in preventing an escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only …. when he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest and also reasonably believes that the person to be arrested (a) has committed or attempted to commit a felony; or (b) is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon; or (c) may otherwise endanger life or inflict serious physical injury unless arrested without delay.”


So in this case again, I feel like the prosecutor just did this to extend the drama and it could have been over much quicker and in a way that people would understand.

Reporter: Do you shoot unarmed fleeing black kids?
Cop: No man, I shoot all fleeing felons.

[Lord Orbstar]

I hear what you are saying. A couple things:

It is more than semantics, but it is called a preliminary hearing.
I do not believe the shooting investigation found it to be a bad or illegal shoot. The content of THAT investigation would prove what you are saying is correct or not. Since it went forward, let us assume it was inconclusive in its results.
So know the DA has to make a decision: prosecute or not.

If he too is unsure, then go Grand Jury so they can see all evidence in an exhaustive, thorough manner (lets pretend he didnt make this call due to any pressure or political reasons.)

If he is sure, then he get's a warrant and has the officer arrested and charged with the crime (whatever he thinks is prosecutable such as voluntary manslaughter)

BUT...that means the cop is arrested. That has a horrible affect on that person's life: to be arrested, incarcerated(even if he bails out) and charged with a felony. he is a police officer doing his job. You cannot make that call lightly. NOBODY would be a cop if everytime you shoot or use force you can expect to be arrested. What does an arrest help with? yes. CIVIL trial...where you get sued for wrongful death. An arrest would really help the plaintiff in fucking you over.

Your solution would have a "chilling effect" on law enforcement everywhere.

it is not a simple or minor thing to be arrested and charged, even if you are acquitted or the charges dismissed. This whole experience has victimized the officer, his collegues, and community. The Brown family are also victims preyed upon by vulture media, race baiters and by their own son's decisions that lead to his untimely death. No one is a winner.

[Buckwheet]

I hear what you are saying. A couple things:

It is more than semantics, but it is called a preliminary hearing.
I do not believe the shooting investigation found it to be a bad or illegal shoot. The content of THAT investigation would prove what you are saying is correct or not. Since it went forward, let us assume it was inconclusive in its results.
So know the DA has to make a decision: prosecute or not.

If he too is unsure, then go Grand Jury so they can see all evidence in an exhaustive, thorough manner (lets pretend he didnt make this call due to any pressure or political reasons.)

If he is sure, then he get's a warrant and has the officer arrested and charged with the crime (whatever he thinks is prosecutable such as voluntary manslaughter)

BUT...that means the cop is arrested. That has a horrible affect on that person's life: to be arrested, incarcerated(even if he bails out) and charged with a felony. he is a police officer doing his job. You cannot make that call lightly. NOBODY would be a cop if everytime you shoot or use force you can expect to be arrested. What does an arrest help with? yes. CIVIL trial...where you get sued for wrongful death. An arrest would really help the plaintiff in fucking you over.

Your solution would have a "chilling effect" on law enforcement everywhere.

it is not a simple or minor thing to be arrested and charged, even if you are acquitted or the charges dismissed. This whole experience has victimized the officer, his collegues, and community. The Brown family are also victims preyed upon by vulture media, race baiters and by their own son's decisions that lead to his untimely death. No one is a winner.

Who said he would only have been charged with a felony? I believe several charges were available. He could have been charged simply with unlawful discharge of a firearm and found guilty and it could have been a misdemeanor charge.

[Warriorbird]

I think both this and Zimmerman were charged inappropriately high.

[Latrinsorm]

Latrin, you and I both know you said it was "impossible" for Brown to have been reaching for the cop's gun even though the experts said that was a possibility. You have been caught in another one of your classic lies. Please apologize and shake my hand like a man.I don't know what I said, let's check (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?91800-Ferguson-Guns-and-Cameras&p=1710291#post1710291)!
"To me this makes the claim that Brown was reaching for the gun even less plausible."

When someone else made the same misquotation as you, I even asked (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?91800-Ferguson-Guns-and-Cameras&p=1710344#post1710344)...
"Are you purposefully misinterpreting 'less plausible' as 'impossible'?"

If anyone should be apologizing, it is you.

[Tgo01]

I don't know what I said, let's check (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?91800-Ferguson-Guns-and-Cameras&p=1710291#post1710291)!
"To me this makes the claim that Brown was reaching for the gun even less plausible."

When someone else made the same misquotation as you, I even asked (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?91800-Ferguson-Guns-and-Cameras&p=1710344#post1710344)...
"Are you purposefully misinterpreting 'less plausible' as 'impossible'?"

If anyone should be apologizing, it is you.

Not much of an apology but I'll take it.

[Tenlaar]

Yes because that is exactly what I said. Murder Trial.

Moron.

Oh, I'm so sorry. What do you think that the police officer who shoots somebody who is actively engaged in committing a violent crime should be charged with in order to go straight to a trial? First degree doing his fucking job?

Moron.

[Hoodtralfeck]

i just hope that this place isnt anywhere near Simutronics HQ , id blow my top if they burned down simu

[Gelston]

i just hope that this place isnt anywhere near Simutronics HQ , id blow my top if they burned down simu

Simutronics is a high tech corporation with top of the line PMC contractors guarding their offices.

[Androidpk]

Simutronics is a high tech corporation with top of the line PMC contractors guarding their offices.

Solomon's real name is Snake Plissken.

[Jarvan]

Simutronics is a high tech corporation with top of the line PMC contractors guarding their offices.

That and where do you think Whatley gets his hookers and blow from?

[Androidpk]

That and where do you think Whatley gets his hookers and blow from?

Bill Clinton?

[Wyrmx]

Solomon's real name is Snake Plissken.

I was thinking Erik Prince.

[Buckwheet]

Oh, I'm so sorry. What do you think that the police officer who shoots somebody who is actively engaged in committing a violent crime should be charged with in order to go straight to a trial? First degree doing his fucking job?

Moron.

There were multiple options available from the grand jury report. Any of those charges were sufficient to go to the preliminary...hearing since I have been corrected that they can't be called a preliminary..trial.

We have the power of hindsight now with the release of the grand jury information but until that time there was nothing concrete to suggest "he was just doing his job".

[stormcrow]

i just hope that this place isnt anywhere near Simutronics HQ , id blow my top if they burned down simu

Yes..they'd have to replace all seven of my 10x's claids

[Lord Orbstar]

burning down Simu would set back Savant release date by years

[Parkbandit]

Thanks for reinforcing my first point. They should have bypassed a grand jury step and just went with a regular trial so that all the information would be publicly available in a easy to digest format. Since that is what they ended up doing anyways to some extent.

So your reasoning for bypassing the grand jury step is for political pressure?

Seems it worked out exactly how it was designed. An innocent man was not charged and he didn't have to go through the very expensive process of defending himself.

[Parkbandit]

I always hate agreeing with you, but yes I believe in this case the prosecutor didn't have the balls to just charge him with a crime and do the public/open preliminary hearing and decided to drag this thing out for three months.

It had nothing to do with "balls" and everything to do with the evidence showing Officer Wilson doing his job.


Even if the crime was as simple as unlawful discharge of a firearm

lolwut?

[Kerranger]

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S3631519.shtml?cat=1

[Parkbandit]

There were multiple options available from the grand jury report. Any of those charges were sufficient to go to the preliminary...hearing since I have been corrected that they can't be called a preliminary..trial.

We have the power of hindsight now with the release of the grand jury information but until that time there was nothing concrete to suggest "he was just doing his job".

So, in hindsight, the process worked as intended. An innocent officer was cleared and didn't have to go through a jury trial that would have been a media circus and extremely expensive for this innocent officer.

[Warriorbird]

So, in hindsight, the process worked as intended. An innocent officer was cleared and didn't have to go through a jury trial that would have been a media circus and extremely expensive for this innocent officer.

We've also discovered the political benefits of prosecutors using questionable charging to fail at cases. Heck, you don't even have to take a case to a full trial now.

[Gelston]

They are protesting with choo choo trains. I am happy.

[~Rocktar~]

We've also discovered the political benefits of prosecutors using questionable charging to fail at cases. Heck, you don't even have to take a case to a full trial now.

Yep, you can go straight to hanging people without trial just because they look guilty or you don't like them.

[Taernath]

We've also discovered the political benefits of prosecutors using questionable charging to fail at cases. Heck, you don't even have to take a case to a full trial now.

Worked for Casey Anthony.

[Jarvan]

Thanks for reinforcing my first point. They should have bypassed a grand jury step and just went with a regular trial so that all the information would be publicly available in a easy to digest format. Since that is what they ended up doing anyways to some extent.

In other words, you would have preferred a trial where he would have not been found guilty, and the people would have rioted WORSE.

Makes sense.

[Latrinsorm]

In other words, you would have preferred a trial where he would have been found guilty, and the people would have rioted WORSE.

Makes sense.Your interpretation makes no sense whatsoever.

[Jarvan]

Who said he would only have been charged with a felony? I believe several charges were available. He could have been charged simply with unlawful discharge of a firearm and found guilty and it could have been a misdemeanor charge.

It's unlawful for a police officer to discharge a firearm in the course of duty? More directly, to defend himself from a criminal attacking him?

Basically, you are saying he should have been found guilty of something JUST to appease the black community. Kinda fucked up.

[Jarvan]

Your interpretation makes no sense whatsoever.

Yeah, missed the word not. Fixed it.

[Buckwheet]

So, in hindsight, the process worked as intended. An innocent officer was cleared and didn't have to go through a jury trial that would have been a media circus and extremely expensive for this innocent officer.

If by work as intended you mean drag out something for three months that would have been over a few days then yes.

Why would you think it would have gotten to a jury trial? I think the case would have been dismissed immediately by the first hearing. The differences would have been it would have been publicly available, and everyone would have seen the actual evidence unfold before them in real time without three months of made up bullshit getting spewed to the media.

I don't really understand what I have said that indicated it should have been a jury trial, murder trial, criminal trial. So to reiterate, it shouldn't have been a grand jury trial. It should have just gone the normal route with the evidence presented, his parents could have testified and maybe instead of building three months of anticipation and letting people prepare.

Nobody knows if the rioting would have been worse or not.

[Buckwheet]

It's unlawful for a police officer to discharge a firearm in the course of duty? More directly, to defend himself from a criminal attacking him?

Basically, you are saying he should have been found guilty of something JUST to appease the black community. Kinda fucked up.

Man people are really reading too much into what I am saying. I wasn't the first person to suggest that specific crime. It was listed as one HE COULD have been charged with. Am I saying he SHOULD have been found guilty of that? No.

I am saying if the prosecutor felt like there was a crime, any crime, jay walking, illegal discharge, speeding whatever...he should have just moved forward with the regular process and skipped the grand jury side.

Edit: I am not saying he should have been found guilty of anything. I just think with the situation there and the rioting if they were going to release all the information anyways skip the 3 month wait and have it done with right in front of the judge during the preliminary hearing while witnesses can give statements and either speak the truth or lie under oath and get caught in it.

The alternative was 3 months of the media and people saying pure nonsense to perpetuate the rioting and violence.

[Jarvan]

Man people are really reading too much into what I am saying. I wasn't the first person to suggest that specific crime. It was listed as one HE COULD have been charged with. Am I saying he SHOULD have been found guilty of that? No.

I am saying if the prosecutor felt like there was a crime, any crime, jay walking, illegal discharge, speeding whatever...he should have just moved forward with the regular process and skipped the grand jury side.

Edit: I am not saying he should have been found guilty of anything. I just think with the situation there and the rioting if they were going to release all the information anyways skip the 3 month wait and have it done with right in front of the judge during the preliminary hearing while witnesses can give statements and either speak the truth or lie under oath and get caught in it.

The alternative was 3 months of the media and people saying pure nonsense to perpetuate the rioting and violence.

The Media NEEDED this tho Buck. So did the Dems.

They knew months ago he was justified. They couldn't release that before elections, or when it didn't serve a purpose. Everything in politics.. and yes, something like this is more about politics then the truth, is done for gain.

Who gains by rioting?

Who gains by delaying it?

Who gains by dragging it out and making it look for as long as possible that Wilson did something wrong?

[Laviticas]

Personally I'm just itching to find out why the governor didn't send out the guard. Complete dereliction of duty, oh wait he's another democrat and was thinking there would be hand holding, dancing and sing along's.

[Gelston]

Personally I'm just itching to find out why the governor didn't send out the guard. Complete dereliction of duty, oh wait he's another democrat and was thinking there would be hand holding, dancing and sing along's.

... He did...

http://www.ky3.com/image/view/-/27595870/highRes/2/-/xtwpn1z/-/National-Guard-Ferguson-jpg.jpg

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-ED780_0818na_G_20140818142119.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77023000/jpg/_77023029_023548850-1.jpg

[Androidpk]

... He did...

Imperial Guard != National Guard.

[Taernath]

... He did...


Oh, he sent out the National Guard huh? What a jackbooted Nazi! He's probably a Republican!

[Laviticas]

... He did...

http://www.ky3.com/image/view/-/27595870/highRes/2/-/xtwpn1z/-/National-Guard-Ferguson-jpg.jpg

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-ED780_0818na_G_20140818142119.jpg

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77023000/jpg/_77023029_023548850-1.jpg

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me and the fact they were not ordered to take action until after the damage was done.

[Gelston]

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me and the fact they were not ordered to take action until after the damage was done.

What? They were sent out there before the verdict was even read. They did their job and protected the buildings they were meant to protect.

[Laviticas]

This would be news to the mayor, the Lt. Governor and the governor himself considering the Governors press conference. They both have said the guard did not react nor could the governor be reached monday night. I guess if this is your expectation from a a state Governor.......:wince:

[Gelston]

This would be news to the mayor, the Lt. Governor and the governor himself considering the Governors press conference. They both have said the guard did not react nor could the governor be reached monday night. I guess if this is your expectation from a a state Governor.......:wince:

Again, they weren't sent there to stop rioting. That is what the State Police and SWAT teams from multiple other departments were there for. The Guard protected the Police Station, Fire Stations, and Hospitals.. Freeing up police to deal with the protests and rioters.

That was their entire stated purpose from the very beginning when they were activated and sent there.

[Buckwheet]

The Media NEEDED this tho Buck. So did the Dems.

They knew months ago he was justified. They couldn't release that before elections, or when it didn't serve a purpose. Everything in politics.. and yes, something like this is more about politics then the truth, is done for gain.

Who gains by rioting?

Who gains by delaying it?

Who gains by dragging it out and making it look for as long as possible that Wilson did something wrong?

Right. That is why I agreed with Orbstar a few posts back that this was political and is bullshit. This could have been wrapped months ago without the grand jury. The prosecutor didn't have the balls to say no charges and he didn't have the balls to charge him with something and go stand in front of a judge and try and prove it to move forward with an actual criminal trial.

So he took the easy way out and did a grand jury where they could sort of act like they were doing something but they weren't and then delay the findings until later. This way the judge couldn't be targeted politically, the prosecutor couldn't be targeted politically, and 12 relatively anonymous people "are now to blame" for the result.

There are multiple people who have experience with the grand jury process saying if that prosecutor thought there was a crime and wanted to go to trial he pretty much controls the grand jury and could have done that. It was just a total cop-out.

There was zero evidence to suggest an execution. I don't think he should have been found guilty based on the evidence they had, but since they didn't release ALL the charges we will never know. If they had done the public hearing and said we charge him with X Y and Z and here is why, at least as the evidence was presented I think the public and the media would have to back down because it was obvious specific people were lying.

I think its pretty crappy those liars aren't called on it either for all the damage they have caused by inciting the riots with their statements.

[Laviticas]

Again, they weren't sent there to stop rioting. That is what the State Police and SWAT teams from multiple other departments were there for. The Guard protected the Police Station, Fire Stations, and Hospitals.. Freeing up police to deal with the protests and rioters.

That was their entire stated purpose from the very beginning when they were activated and sent there.

This is not what is being reported as of 3 am this morning. Not on Monday night

[Gelston]

This is not what is being reported as of 3 am this morning. Not on Monday night

That is what has been reported since they were sent there, and also exactly what I heard listening to the Missouri State Police on the scanner.

They were activated on November 17th. http://www.abc17news.com/news/gov-nixon-declares-state-of-emergency-activates-national-guard-ahead-of-ferguson-decision/29777528

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

In other words, you would have preferred a trial where he would have not been found guilty, and the people would have rioted WORSE.

Makes sense.

I'm SO ok with them burning down their homes, neighborhood and businesses. If the local community won't do anything to stop it, why should I give a damn?

And for all the so called protesters all over the nation... look at the evidence. Nothing is worse than being ignorant about the supposed cause you support.

[Moonwitch]

Every state is different and even every county. I have to agree with Orbstar as far as the DA didn't want his house to be fire bombed so he let the Grand Jury decide. DDA's read the police reports and the pre-trial packets to decide if they have enough evidence to bring it to trial. It's what they get paid to do. I work with bailiffs and every one of them said they would have done the same thing.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Hey buddy, they aren't riots. They are protests.

And I bet the majority of them aren't from Ferguson, so they don't care.

Hey buddy, what do you call burning buildings to the ground, destroying/burning cars and assaulting (with molotov cocktails, rocks, etc) officers of the law?

Look at the arrest reports and get back to me on "them aren't from Ferguson", would ya?

[Gelston]

Hey buddy, what do you call burning buildings to the ground, destroying/burning cars and assaulting (with molotov cocktails, rocks, etc) officers of the law?

Look at the arrest reports and get back to me on "them aren't from Ferguson", would ya?

Oh, do I need to put on sarcasm tags for you?

[Methais]

These riots are getting way too out of hand...

[Lower Dragonsclaw, Forest - 429]
The forest floor slopes noticeably downhill here, thinning out somewhat at the bottom, where modwir, thick pine and fir trees predominate. You also see a gnarled oily black tree and a gnarled oily black tree.
Obvious paths: north, south, southwest
>
A giantman traveller arrives, following you.

[ego2]>south
[Lower Dragonsclaw, Forest - 430]
Pine cones are scattered about the ground here, knocked down by the movement of small animals through the trees and the wind that buffets this outlying section of the forest. You also see a gnarled oily black tree, a gnarled oily black tree, a gnarled oily black tree and a gnarled oily black tree.
Obvious paths: north, southwest, west
>
A giantman traveller arrives, following you.
>
A gnarled branch from an oily black tree suddenly lashes out, slashing you!
... 30 points of damage!
Deep slash to your neck severs an artery!
You choke to death on your own blood.
The layer of protection fades away.
The translucent sphere fades from around you.
You feel the extra courage wane.
Your senses are no longer as sharp.
You no longer feel so dextrous.
The air about you stops shimmering.
You return to normal color.
The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.
You no longer bristle with energy.
You become solid again.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around you.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves you.
You feel less confident than before.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
You feel your extra strength departing.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
Abruptly, everything you see and hear comes into better focus. Your personal temporal reality has rejoined the true flow of time.
You feel your extra magical awareness leave you.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

You mentally give a sigh of relief as you remember that the Goddess Lorminstra owes you a favor.

...departing in 10 mins...
>tell familiar to watch
--- Lich: ego2 has exited.
You are a ghost! You must wait until someone resurrects you, or you decay. Either way, it won't be long now! (HELP for more details).
>
A groove-billed emerald toucan flies in.
>
Your surroundings begin to blur, colors melting away as silence rushes in to greet you. Shadows creep in from the corner of your eyes and you are overwhelmed in darkness.

Suddenly the darkness peels away and you hear the sound of rustling tree branches nearby. Your vision returns and you find yourself before a garden with gnarled, oily black trees towering above you.
[Moot Hall, Orchard - 21688]
A large garden stretches out beneath the shadow of Moot Hall. Thick stone walls rise up behind the building, shielding the area from the rest of the town, and a carved wooden door leads back inside. You also see a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree, a red-veined gnarled black tree and a red-veined gnarled black tree.
Obvious paths: none
>

[You have failed your current Adventurer's Guild task.]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Oh, do I need to put on sarcasm tags for you?

If it was sarcasm, probably...

[Gelston]

If it was sarcasm, probably...

You'll notice most people on this forum have grown beyond having to use sarcasm tags.

But if you are too dim to see when something is or isn't... No, I don't really care.

[Taernath]

[Lower Dragonsclaw, Forest - 430]
Pine cones are scattered about the ground here, knocked down by the movement of small animals through the trees and the wind that buffets this outlying section of the forest. You also see a gnarled oily black tree, a gnarled oily black tree, a gnarled oily black tree and a gnarled oily black tree.
Obvious paths: north, southwest, west
>
A giantman traveller arrives, following you.
>
A gnarled branch from an oily black tree suddenly lashes out, slashing you!
... 30 points of damage!
Deep slash to your neck severs an artery!
You choke to death on your own blood.
The layer of protection fades away.
The translucent sphere fades from around you.
You feel the extra courage wane.
Your senses are no longer as sharp.
You no longer feel so dextrous.
The air about you stops shimmering.
You return to normal color.
The layer of stone surrounding you crumbles away.
You no longer bristle with energy.
You become solid again.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around you.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves you.
You feel less confident than before.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
You feel your extra strength departing.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
Abruptly, everything you see and hear comes into better focus. Your personal temporal reality has rejoined the true flow of time.
You feel your extra magical awareness leave you.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

You mentally give a sigh of relief as you remember that the Goddess Lorminstra owes you a favor.

...departing in 10 mins...

You feel your white privilege leave you.

[Tgo01]

Look what these racist Republicans did to one female black business owner in Ferguson.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11/26/how-one-womans-vandalized-bakery-has-become-the-greatest-story-to-come-out-of-ferguson-riots/

[Methais]

Look what these racist Republicans did to one female black business owner in Ferguson.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11/26/how-one-womans-vandalized-bakery-has-become-the-greatest-story-to-come-out-of-ferguson-riots/

But how is it fair for one business owner to get $158,000 in donations when there are other business owners who have received $0 in donations?

Back?

[Laviticas]

That is what has been reported since they were sent there, and also exactly what I heard listening to the Missouri State Police on the scanner.

They were activated on November 17th. http://www.abc17news.com/news/gov-nixon-declares-state-of-emergency-activates-national-guard-ahead-of-ferguson-decision/29777528

You are missing the point, the fucking bat phone was ringing off the hook and batman was MIA. Where the fuck was the governor after the verdict was released? FFS everyone and their mother knew this was going to happen and the Governor is AFK. This is his job, a town in his state is a fucking war zone and he's missing?

[Warriorbird]

You are missing the point, the fucking bat phone was ringing off the hook and batman was MIA. Where the fuck was the governor after the verdict was released? FFS everyone and their mother knew this was going to happen and the Governor is AFK. This is his job, a town in his state is a fucking war zone and he's missing?

http://www.filmnotes.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Network.jpg

[Laviticas]

7103

[Androidpk]

Not sure if it has been mentioned yet but apparently the New York Times has published Darren Wilson's home address.. talk about irresponsible journalism. Idiots.

[Taernath]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/wilsontimes.asp

Still a shitty thing to do.

[Warriorbird]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/wilsontimes.asp

Still a shitty thing to do.

By the Post and Globe? Yes.

[Thondalar]

According to Pew's statistical research (and they have no ideology) you will draw 20% more time for possession when black with equivalent background/attorney and you are 20% more likely to get life in prison over the death penalty.

The people who perceive more aren't bad people.

Pew doesn't account for obvious variables, like the fact that blacks are most likely to be repeat offenders, and therefore draw a stiffer sentence.

Two full generations after the Civil Rights movement, 250 years after the first black person was elected to public office, and on the tail end of the 2nd term of a black president...and a shockingly increasing number of minorities in powerful positions in corporate America (http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/diversity_among_ceos.html)...why is race still an excuse? Is equality not the driving force behind civil rights?

Certain people (on BOTH sides of the issue) are still making a living off of race-baiting. It's the only reason it's still an issue.

[Taernath]

By the Post and Globe? Yes.

They're all equally shitty.

[Thondalar]

Ferguson idiots should read up on what the Watts riots impact was on the local economy.

I doubt any of them would know anything about an economy. They can't even get the right "to" on a t-shirt.


And I bet the majority of them aren't from Ferguson, so they don't care.

Yep. Like Sharpton, they're just there for the media....which is sort of funny, because they're trying to discourage the stereotype that they're ignorant neanderthals by...acting like ignorant neanderthals. Go figure.

[Warriorbird]

Two full generations after the Civil Rights movement, 250 years after the first black person was elected to public office, and on the tail end of the 2nd term of a black president...and a shockingly increasing number of minorities in powerful positions in corporate America (http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/diversity_among_ceos.html)...why is race still an excuse? Is equality not the driving force behind civil rights?


Maybe because you have a great difficulty seeing just how your family background helped you recover from your lows easier than someone with a different background would.

It's also extraordinarily historically wacky to suggest "250 years after the first black person was elected to public office" when Reconstruction began about 150 years ago and was a brief idyll before a long wash of rights denial that ended only 40 years ago in many places and continues still.

Your 'shockingly increasing' numbers also aren't population percentages in corporations or politics.

[Androidpk]

I've said this before and I'll keep on saying it.. people like Sharpton are nothing but hypocritical, race-baiting, social parasites.

[Jarvan]

Maybe because you have a great difficulty seeing just how your family background helped you recover from your lows easier than someone with a different background would.

It's also extraordinarily historically wacky to suggest "250 years after the first black person was elected to public office" when Reconstruction began about 150 years ago and was a brief idyll before a long wash of rights denial that ended only 40 years ago in many places and continues still.

Your 'shockingly increasing' numbers also aren't population percentages in corporations or politics.

We were denying Blacks their rights in 1974? Also, there are places in this country where Blacks are denied their rights?

Why doesn't Holder know about this? You should call him up and let him know so he can bring civil rights violations against them and be a big hero. Also, Sharpton and Jackson need to know so they can feel vindicated.

[Androidpk]

>Also, Sharpton and Jackson need to know so they can feel vindicated (and make bank)

[Warriorbird]

We were denying Blacks their rights in 1974? Also, there are places in this country where Blacks are denied their rights?

Why doesn't Holder know about this? You should call him up and let him know so he can bring civil rights violations against them and be a big hero. Also, Sharpton and Jackson need to know so they can feel vindicated.

We most certainly were denying them rights. Conviction percentages for black versus white offenders in the South didn't reach close to their current levels until the Reagan administration, actually (whether you want to credit the Republican Party for that is another story).

Holder's been extraordinarily active at suing people when problems show up (whether you perceive them to be warranted or not). People like Joe Arpaio (and his state) are on the list of troublemakers, which is part of why he's so obsessed with Obama/Holder.

Sharpton and Jackson matter less and less these days. Sharpton just tries to stay in the eye of media. Jackson had his son melt down after getting revealed as a crook, which reduced his power (and you can thank Rahm Emanuel for parts of that, because Emanuel has hated the Jacksons since he worked for Obama... remember that castration comment?).

[Androidpk]

Sharpton is still causing plenty of damage and now we have this other idiot Benjamin Crump.

[Back]

Sharpton is still causing plenty of damage and now we have this other idiot Benjamin Crump.

How can you say that? Sharpton is an American, a reverend, and has been vocally against the riots.

Benjamin Crump is an American, a lawyer, and has been vocally against the riots?

[Warriorbird]

Sharpton is still causing plenty of damage and now we have this other idiot Benjamin Crump.

Lawyers gonna lawyer.

[Androidpk]

How can you say that? Sharpton is an American, a reverend, and has been vocally against the riots.

Benjamin Crump is an American, a lawyer, and has been vocally against the riots?

They're both fucking assholes and idiots.

[Jarvan]

How can you say that? Sharpton is an American, a reverend, and has been vocally against the riots.

Benjamin Crump is an American, a lawyer, and has been vocally against the riots?

You do know there is a difference between being against a Riot, and still causing damage to race issues, right?

[Back]

They're both fucking assholes and idiots.

How can you qualify that? What in your eyes have they done wrong?

Why are you so angry at them?

I think you are being the asshole and idiot.

[Tgo01]

How can you say that? Sharpton is an American, a reverend, and has been vocally against the riots.

Benjamin Crump is an American, a lawyer, and has been vocally against the riots?

John Wayne Gacy was an American, a businessman and was against the riots too but I still think he was an asshole.

[~Rocktar~]

How can you qualify that? What in your eyes have they done wrong?

Why are you so angry at them?

I think you are being the asshole and idiot.

They both make a living race baiting and spreading hate. The idiot here is you. Sharpton isn't interested in settling or solving anything cause then he would be out of a job and not getting driven around in his limo.

[Back]

They both make a living race baiting and spreading hate. The idiot here is you. Sharpton isn't interested in settling or solving anything cause then he would be out of a job and not getting driven around in his limo.

Thats a straight up lie. But even if it was true if they make money why would you be bothered by it? I see the connection. They are black and for whatever reason you have you don't like black people. You don't like them to make money. You don't like them to make sense. You don't like them period. But you listen to Eminem, and Lincoln Park, and Michael Jackson.

Fuck you dude.

[Tgo01]

But you listen to Eminem, and Lincoln Park, and Michael Jackson.

Back is actually being funny lately. It's kind of scary :(

[Androidpk]

Thats a straight up lie. But even if it was true if they make money why would you be bothered by it? I see the connection. They are black and for whatever reason you have you don't like black people. You don't like them to make money. You don't like them to make sense. You don't like them period. But you listen to Eminem, and Lincoln Park, and Michael Jackson.

Fuck you dude.

http://www.animated-gifs.eu/leisure-circus-clowns/0215.gif

[Back]

http://www.animated-gifs.eu/leisure-circus-clowns/0215.gif


You are no worse than ISIS decapitating aid workers or journalists. You are pointing at people trying to do good things and decapitating them on this forum.

Post all the funny pics you want.

You want to see a problem? You want to correct a problem? Look at yourself.

[Androidpk]

You are no worse than ISIS decapitating aid workers or journalists. You are pointing at people trying to do good things and decapitating them on this forum.

Post all the funny pics you want.

LooooooooooooooL

[Back]

LooooooooooooooL

Maybe if you put the blunt down you could think clearly.

[Tgo01]

Back is angry tonight. Did a customer send back his food and you are here to vent all your anger?

[Androidpk]

Maybe if you put the blunt down you could think clearly.

I don't smoke blunts.

[Back]

Ok, the bong, or vape, or whatever.

[Jarvan]

Thats a straight up lie. But even if it was true if they make money why would you be bothered by it? I see the connection. They are black and for whatever reason you have you don't like black people. You don't like them to make money. You don't like them to make sense. You don't like them period. But you listen to Eminem, and Lincoln Park, and Michael Jackson.

Fuck you dude.

Man.. whenever I get sad at the state of the world, all I have to do is come here and read your posts.

It reminds me that there are people who's lives are so pathetic that it makes mine look GOOD.

[Androidpk]

Ok, the bong, or vape, or whatever.

Nope, nope and nope.

[Back]

We live in a world where people who cry for peace and equality are demonized. If the story of Jesus is real we have learned nothing for over 2000 years.

[Tgo01]

We live in a world where people who cry for peace and equality are demonized. If the story of Jesus is real we have learned nothing for over 2000 years.

If Sharpton really cared about peace then he wouldn't be stirring up shit.

[Androidpk]

We live in a world where people who cry for peace and equality are demonized. If the story of Jesus is real we have learned nothing for over 2000 years.

Are you one of those crazies that's into self flagellation?