Random (official) GM posts

[Fallen]

Can't say the GMs don't listen/watch the boards!

With added lulz @ Sorcs.

Heh. Yeah.

[kookiegod]

Can't say the GMs don't listen/watch the boards!

With added lulz @ Sorcs.

And hurling.../sigh

[Danical]

And hurling.../sigh

Yeah . . . saw your post. Here's to hoping Lusus gets around to it soon! :cheers:

[Fallen]

>I apologize if this isn't the right place for this sort of request, but I was wondering if you could look into rolling out a "share all" verb that acts much the same way as "deposit all" currently does. Have it auto-share the total coins you have on your person instead of manually typing in the amount like you used to have to do with bank deposits. Thank you much.

You can now SHARE ALL.

Coase

Nice little update that went in about a day after it was suggested.

[Fallen]

<< No you're right, it's a trade off. I say we make it a two way trade off and make it so strength (509) lowers bolt AS by 40. >>

Really? That's your suggestion after all of this? I don't like how 513 works, so let's make 509 worse for everyone else?

Wizards are pures. As pures, we expect wizards to use spells in combat. We are not going to design spells that make it more difficult for the profession to do what they're intended to.

Pures are NOT intended to use weapons in combat. They can do so with some difficulty and sacrifice, but we generally will not design to encourage it.

The purpose of spell 513 is to boost bolt AS. We don't want a Wizard having both strong physical AS and strong bolt AS, especially if you're skimping on training Spell Aiming in the process.

--
Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.


I think he's full of it, but whatever.

[Deathravin]

Tell that to all the haste wizards who sacrifice very little for a very superior xp/hr

[Rathain]

Pures are NOT intended to use weapons in combat. They can do so with some difficulty and sacrifice, but we generally will not design to encourage it.

Empaths can muster a melee AS comparable to Rangers. Basically, what Naos is really saying means is that he isn't sure why 513 affects melee AS, but he's too busy not coding the Elemental Lore review to bother with it.

[Fallen]

Empaths can muster a melee AS comparable to Rangers. Basically, what Naos is really saying means is that he isn't sure why 513 affects melee AS, but he's too busy not coding the Elemental Lore review to bother with it.

That and the only bonus to lore training to 509 is increasing Melee AS. Self cast only, of course. But no, weapon swinging pures are totally unsupported mutants.

[Donquix]

That and the only bonus to lore training to 509 is increasing Melee AS. Self cast only, of course. But no, weapon swinging pures are totally unsupported mutants.

It's pretty annoying that it doesn't at all benefit the encumbrance.

[Fallen]

It's pretty annoying that it doesn't at all benefit the encumbrance.

Agreed.

[Celephais]

I think he's full of it, but whatever.


That and the only bonus to lore training to 509 is increasing Melee AS. Self cast only, of course. But no, weapon swinging pures are totally unsupported mutants.

I think it's bullshit that 513 lowers melee AS, there's a significant TP investment to keep melee AS up as well as bolt AS, and 513 is effectively required to be an effective bolter, generally this trade off to have good melee AS comes at the cost of not having superior CS, or reduced mana pool or reduced lore.

When I was playing with brawling/shield I liked the thought of being able to keep a brawling weapon on me, and use it in emergencies, but 513 makes it impossible even if I 1x brawling and have 509 running. The AS shortcoming later in the game is insurmountable.

[StrayRogue]

You say this like Empaths can do it all without penalty. A warpuff pre-cap cannot be an effective bolter or really an effective (or as effective) caster.

[Kitsun]

I think it's bullshit that 513 lowers melee AS, there's a significant TP investment to keep melee AS up as well as bolt AS, and 513 is effectively required to be an effective bolter, generally this trade off to have good melee AS comes at the cost of not having superior CS, or reduced mana pool or reduced lore.

When I was playing with brawling/shield I liked the thought of being able to keep a brawling weapon on me, and use it in emergencies, but 513 makes it impossible even if I 1x brawling and have 509 running. The AS shortcoming later in the game is insurmountable.

You don't need to bolt and swing at the same time though. Time 513 casts so it will melt part way into the hunt after you've been mana dumping, then you can regen mana and blade hunt.

[Celephais]

You don't need to bolt and swing at the same time though. Time 513 casts so it will melt part way into the hunt after you've been mana dumping, then you can regen mana and blade hunt.

Uh... what? No the duration on 513 is quite long (and I'm glad for this, it's mana intensive), and you cannot "Stop 513".

[WRoss]

Uh... what? No the duration on 513 is quite long (and I'm glad for this, it's mana intensive), and you cannot "Stop 513".

Only way to get around that would be to imbed it so that you didn't get the full duration. I'm not sure how the lore/spell rank benefits would fit in though.

[Kitsun]

Uh... what? No the duration on 513 is quite long (and I'm glad for this, it's mana intensive), and you cannot "Stop 513".

It worked for me when I was still using Kitsun around the AOL web switch. One shot between hunts instead of trying to get hours of duration out of it.

[Donquix]

my relatively low level wizard gets 30 minutes for 1 shot of 513.

That makes relying on it to fail mid hunt pretty unreliable, and will only get worse as I level.

[Rathain]

It worked for me when I was still using Kitsun around the AOL web switch. One shot between hunts instead of trying to get hours of duration out of it.

The problem with your suggestion, is that it forces one to choose, before hunting, between being a more effective bolter or more effective melee attacker despite being fully trained for both. The usage of 513 precludes using both attack methods in a single hunt to the greatest effectiveness, which is afterall the point of devoting so many TP's to using both a weapon and bolts.
It's not a particularly equitable solution, given that not all pures (eg empaths) need to make such concessions.

[pabstblueribbon]

The problem with your suggestion, is that it forces one to choose, before hunting, between being a more effective bolter or more effective melee attacker despite being fully trained for both. The usage of 513 precludes using both attack methods in a single hunt to the greatest effectiveness, which is afterall the point of devoting so many TP's to using both a weapon and bolts.
It's not a particularly equitable solution, given that not all pures (eg empaths) need to make such concessions.

Well if you're bolting and a melee wizard I would assume you would open with a tonis bolt or some other immobiler and the reduction to the targets DS due to being on the ground would mitigate the drawback of having a lower melee AS anyways.

And aren't most critters bolt ds lower than melee anyways?

[Donquix]

The primary benefit of Strength to wizards is mitigating encumbrance. The bonus to physical AS is meaningless to pure wizards. The spell is also a social spell, in that it is not self-cast and is rather highly sought after by other professions. We ike things that bring players together. We want you to be able to buff your friends a bit. If they're a profession that is intended to use weapons, they will welcome to added AS of Strength.

Haste, likewise, has benefits outside of combat and is also sharable with your fellow non-wizard players. Also, we have changes in line for Haste, most likely with the release of the Elemental Lore Review changes. The end is nigh?

That's so not good.

[Tordane]

That's so not good.

Always figured the day would come when they totally gut haste. Here is to hoping it will become percentage based atleast so it can help with large roundtimes.

[Celephais]

It worked for me when I was still using Kitsun around the AOL web switch. One shot between hunts instead of trying to get hours of duration out of it.

What the fuck are you talking about? 913 was death cloud.

[yesicj]

What the fuck are you talking about? 913 was death cloud.

It's a good thing he's talking about 513 then, no?

[Celephais]

It's a good thing he's talking about 513 then, no?

Yeah good point. Either way GS3 durations do not apply to the current circumstances. I was pretty sure 513 was something else but I forget what it was.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Ugh, Naos is going to destroy haste.

[audioserf]

Haste being gutted will at least get me out of this fucking game. I can find better uses of my time, and $15/mo will buy me a case of Victory Prima Pils, so I'll live.

Seriously, my only character is a warmage. Not worth sticking around if he gets gimped out. :(

[Mathari]

The warmage character that I used to play was the most fun character that I ever had in GS, by far. If they gut Haste, as it looks like they will be, the warmage archetype will likely be unplayable. Not only will this eliminate a huge amount of potential for wizards, it'll likely ruin a number of peoples' characters, piss off many more, and remove one of the few remaining options that a good number of us seem to regard as really, really fun.

In short, their decision-making, if it's leading them the way it seems to be leading them, sucks. Most of us knew or suspected this already, though.

[Mathari]

And let's not forget how lucky older warmages are (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=1144934).

[Fallen]

>Roundtime is boredom. The lack of roundtime is fun.

Unfortunately, RT is a necessary mechanic for balance when we do not have a complex spatial aspect to the game like graphical games do (i.e. it takes time to physically move from one enemy to the next.) and also because of our lack of graphics, we don't have a way to actually see the character swinging their weapon - without RT, everything happens instantaneously and thus there is absolutely no risk involved in combat for characters. Combat must be mitigated by resources, and one of those resources is time.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=31&topic=11&message=8555
----

>Are you claiming that Warwizards are unbalanced due to their 1 second swing RT? Otherwise, i'm lost here. No one is debating the NEED for roundtime, they are simply stating it's boring.

Well, I think it's obvious they are, but my opinion on Wizards' balance concerns are irrelevant. Yes, I was stating that there is a need for roundtime to make combat challenging - without a challenge, the game is boring. So I simply can't understand how the roundtime mechanic is boring when its existence is what's causing challenging combat. (This statement is completely separate, of course from long, non-combat RTs like in forging - I can understand how that is boring.) Do you get bored for 5 seconds and then all of a sudden have a moment of excitement and engagement when you can again attack? I would imagine such a boredom function to be far more continuous and gradual than discrete like that.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=31&topic=11&message=8561


Added emphasis mine not his. If anyone is curious, this discussion is taking place in the WIZARD folder, WIZARD SPELLS subfolder.

[Ryvicke]

The warmage character that I used to play was the most fun character that I ever had in GS, by far. If they gut Haste, as it looks like they will be, the warmage archetype will likely be unplayable. Not only will this eliminate a huge amount of potential for wizards, it'll likely ruin a number of peoples' characters, piss off many more, and remove one of the few remaining options that a good number of us seem to regard as really, really fun.

In short, their decision-making, if it's leading them the way it seems to be leading them, sucks. Most of us knew or suspected this already, though.

Hmmm... I'm really not seeing them changing it into being "unplayable." For instance, my ranged ranger is a joke to play, if they nerfed ranged to make it harder to hit the eye or increase the RT of every longbow shot by 2 seconds, my character certainly wouldn't be "unplayable." Less fun and pwntastic to hunt, yes, but probably still pretty fucking good at hunting. I think the same can be said of warmages.

[Fallen]

Hmmm... I'm really not seeing them changing it into being "unplayable." For instance, my ranged ranger is a joke to play, if they nerfed ranged to make it harder to hit the eye or increase the RT of every longbow shot by 2 seconds, my character certainly wouldn't be "unplayable." Less fun and pwntastic to hunt, yes, but probably still pretty fucking good at hunting. I think the same can be said of warmages.

That's the problem. They have been making things less fun and more balanced for a long time now. Fun should trump balance unless things are CRAZY overpowered, and few of the changes they have made meet those requirements. Nerfing Warmages certainly wouldn't.

[Danical]

That's the problem. They have been making things less fun and more balanced for a long time now. Fun should trump balance unless things are CRAZY overpowered, and few of the changes they have made meet those requirements. Nerfing Warmages certainly wouldn't.

I'm guessing the only changes going to be made to haste is that it will be self-cast only.

[Fallen]

I'm guessing the only changes going to be made to haste is that it will be self-cast only.

No arguments here as to that. However, if this was the case, why wouldn't they say, "The changes we are making will not likely effect warwizards, especially if they hunt solo." and stave off a ton of bitching/worrying/debate.

[audioserf]

Amazing that the Empath guru, of all professions, is calling anything overpowered. Heh.

This is going to be a nerf. They're not even trying to hide the fact. There's no spin. It's just "Yeah that's getting changed" "Yeah it's ovepowered" "Yeah roundtime is necessary".

Edit: The ONLY advantage a warmage has in combat is Haste. Their AS is for shit. They don't have redux. Crowd control is nice, yes, but still - without the advantage of a low RT, there's just no point to doing it. Shit, I fix-skilled to polearms and am using a lance in 2 seconds and it's fun but nowhere near as awesome as a maul in 1 second was. If they bump me to 3 or 4, fuck it. Not worth it anymore.

[Tolwynn]

If the empath guru thinks warmages are overpowered, maybe someone should take a look at his empaths and make them healers only as their character profession clearly suggests.

The sad thing is, knowing the Simu mentality, someone in there would probably take it seriously and consider just that.

[Gnomad]

I think a somewhat okay haste nerf would be: Cap min swing RT to 1/3 of the base RT of the weapon, rounded normally. Base 4 on down, 1 second. Base 5 to 7, 2 seconds, Base 8 to 10, 3 seconds.

Would probably make mauls the weapon of choice, though.

[AnticorRifling]

I think a somewhat okay haste nerf would be: Cap min swing RT to 1/3 of the base RT of the weapon, rounded normally. Base 4 on down, 1 second. Base 5 to 7, 2 seconds, Base 8 to 10, 3 seconds.

Would probably make mauls the weapon of choice, though. If I were still playing I'd be forced to punch you in the cock for suggesting this.

[Archigeek]

Amazing that the Empath guru, of all professions, is calling anything overpowered. Heh.

One of the biggest problems with development that SIMU has is the "copy it and make it better" mode of development. At first glance, "make it better" sounds like a good thing, until you realize that they're copying something from one profession, and making it better for some other profession without upgrading the first. Lets see if we can make a list. I think it would have to start out with: familiars: half the professions now have a pet of some sort, and most of them do more than familiars do. Then wizards get it in the pooper again with the neutering of recharging combined with the release of scroll charging. I don't begrudge sorcerers the scroll charging, but it's far more useful than recharging is today.

Lets see, what else has been copied: runestaff defense is basically a copy of df reduction in methodology, though I am not sure I'd call it better than df reduction; it's just kind of a weak implementation of what runestaves could have been. Anyway, there are a ton of things that have been copied and "made better". Feel free to add to the list...

[StrayRogue]

I think runestaves are awesome.

[Drew]

I think a somewhat okay haste nerf would be: Cap min swing RT to 1/3 of the base RT of the weapon, rounded normally. Base 4 on down, 1 second. Base 5 to 7, 2 seconds, Base 8 to 10, 3 seconds.

Would probably make mauls the weapon of choice, though.

So you basically want wizards to sing song of tonis, but worse?

[Drew]

Amazing that the Empath guru, of all professions, is calling anything overpowered. Heh.

This, this, and 100x this. Empaths are the most overpowered class with the easiest least threatening no skill needed experience gain outside of their insane combat prowess. And we're looking at warmages as a problem?


To paraphrase Greminity from the boards: Apparently the problem with warmages isn't that they are overpowered, it's that they are over-funned.

[Gnomad]

So you basically want wizards to sing song of tonis, but worse?

no, i want it to stay un-nerfed. but i think we'll see something like that.

[Archigeek]

This, this, and 100x this. Empaths are the most overpowered class with the easiest least threatening no skill needed experience gain outside of their insane combat prowess. And we're looking at warmages as a problem?

Thirded. Empaths are rediculous. Again, copy it and make it better. In the case of empaths, they're rediculously better. Laughable really, for a profession that was never designed to be able to hunt in the first place.

[StrayRogue]

Thirded. Empaths are rediculous. Again, copy it and make it better. In the case of empaths, they're rediculously better. Laughable really, for a profession that was never designed to be able to hunt in the first place.

Empaths have always been able to hunt.

Every class has had their golden day. Now is empaths. Instead of whining about them, why not make suggestions on how to improve your own perfectly alright class?

[Fallen]

Thirded. Empaths are rediculous. Again, copy it and make it better. In the case of empaths, they're rediculously better. Laughable really, for a profession that was never designed to be able to hunt in the first place.

Empaths are overpowered in a way that cannot be fixed without a GS5 scenario. No pure profession should be able to 3x Physical Fitness. No pure profession, Clerics too, should be casting in Chain. WTF do we need semi's for, then? The problem is how do you overcome some of the advantages empaths have out of the box? I don't see them tweaking skill costs or training caps up or down for a long, long time. I doubt they will touch hindrance charts again soon either.

[Tolwynn]

Instead of whining about them, why not make suggestions on how to improve your own perfectly alright class?

Because they always compensate for nerfs with boosts that make up for them, right?

[Celephais]

Empaths are overpowered in a way that cannot be fixed without a GS5 scenario. No pure profession should be able to 3x Physical Fitness. No pure profession, Clerics too, should be casting in Chain. WTF do we need semi's for, then? The problem is how do you overcome some of the advantages empaths have out of the box? I don't see them tweaking skill costs or training caps up or down for a long, long time. I doubt they will touch hindrance charts again soon either.

This is extremely poignant. Empaths and Clerics are extremely well off due to being able to cast in heavier armors (let alone the fact it costs them less to train). The problem isn't something they could fix without rocking a lot of characters.

[yesicj]

Yeah good point. Either way GS3 durations do not apply to the current circumstances. I was pretty sure 513 was something else but I forget what it was.

The wonder that was Sleep III...

[Celephais]

The wonder that was Sleep III...

OOOoooooh yeah! Sleep II you mean, wasn't Sleep III (Sleep true!) 520?

ETA:


It worked for me when the spell didn't exist. One shot between hunts instead of trying to get hours of duration out of it.
He still hasn't addressed this yet, has he?

[audioserf]

Empaths have always been able to hunt.

Every class has had their golden day. Now is empaths. Instead of whining about them, why not make suggestions on how to improve your own perfectly alright class?

I wouldn't say shit about empaths if they weren't looking at gimping out Haste. I don't need any improvements to the mage class. It would be fun to get new shit, sure, but nothing needed. Rocking haste eliminates a whole sub-class, and for what? To make one smug dude happier for having achieved "balance" in his volunteer position GM job?

Just let people have fun. Fuck. Haste isn't hurting anyone. Make it self-cast and be done with it. I don't think capped warmages (is there even a single one?) are causing balance issues.

[StrayRogue]

Oh I agree haste doesn't need touching.

[Danical]

I think Haste being self-cast only would be fine. As Oscuro said, that's his biggest concern.

I would like to think the E-Lore Review will bring about a lot of diversity within the Wizard profession. Given it's proposed incarnation, you could have a water/air mage for stuns/RT for lightning spells. Acid mages (sick!!!). Or war mages could insanely benefit from water/earth as their ewaves will be more powerful, coupled with higher defensive capabilities (and less detriment from 513 which this entire argument spawned from). However, I can see ewave being relegated to having additional requirements for success than purely level based. As 410 is now, Rogues with 10 MnE ranks seem to have the same success rates of prone/rt effects as all pures/semis with 75 ranks. Good news for most WarWizards though, as they will invariably have 76 MnE ranks, fucking shitty news for Rogues, if this comes to fruition.

I've rallied against Empath design for as long as I can remember, but nerfing them just sucks the fun out of the profession that's already been normed, so to speak. It's best to boost other professions, and also boost creatures because, let's be honest, GS from 0-70 is easy.

Lastly, even if an Immo nerf comes, fire lore + channeled 409/415 would be stupid awesome.

[Fallen]

Speaking of putting the fun back in Gemstone!



I'm a bit amused at how hung up the discussion has been on the one example of how unbalanced characters in general could adversely affect the playing experience of other characters.

The fact is that haste effects in general are severely overpowered in GemStone. The difference between swinging at 1 second and 5 seconds is huge. The casual threats/promises of cancellation of accounts at the prospect of a merely a 1 second roundtime changing to a 2 second roundtime are a clear indication of this. The larger issue is that swinging at 1 second forever is a trivial matter for wizards, and they sacrifice nothing for this ability. Haste is all benefit, with absolutely no mitigating factors. With Haste running, a wizard is a better warrior than a warrior, and if you can't see the problem there, you live in a world of trees with no forests.

--
Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.
*

What a waste of resources.

[Tolwynn]

If more than 1 attack per five seconds is nerfworthy, maybe they can also look at nerfing:

TWC
Mstrike
archery
brawling
all weapons faster than 5 seconds
unarmed combat
certain combat maneuvers
etc, etc, etc

also, if everything is to be 5 second cookie cutter boring sameness, please also make all the heavier and normally slower weapons have a 5 second rt too kthx.

[Archigeek]

If more than 1 attack per five seconds is nerfworthy, maybe they can also look at nerfing:

TWC
Mstrike
archery
brawling
all weapons faster than 5 seconds
unarmed combat
certain combat maneuvers
etc, etc, etc

also, if everything is to be 5 second cookie cutter boring sameness, please also make all the heavier and normally slower weapons have a 5 second rt too kthx.

And give all spell casting a hard RT, kthx.

[Tolwynn]

They must be salivating at all of the great ideas getting mentioned here!

[inso]

I like that he uses the word "merely" to describe his example of a 100% increase in hard rt.

[Stanley Burrell]

I remember "Warpaths." Basically healers who would 1x in brawling and Voln Fu. It made sense because it was a healer going to the absolute extreme of being a healer ... to not be a healer.

As for haste, I'd just make it cost more mana and have Air Lore; with intentionally more seeds, grant earlier + overall perks without as many lore ranks for substantial gain thrown in. Maybe make it as easy to cast on others as what they did with alkars.

[Donquix]

And give all spell casting a hard RT, kthx.

I loved that part. "YOUR 1 SEC HARD RT ATTACKS FOR 30 DAMAGE AND A RANK 2 ARE OVERPOWERED! YOU WILL INSTEAD BE IN 3 SEC OF SOFT RT AND 1 SHOT THINGS! BALANCE!"

I've more or less liked Naos, but that thread has made me lose any respect I had for him as a dev.

Oscuro sounds dumb too, but he's always been "if it ain't an empath and or possibly a cleric it should suck" so it's not really surprising.

[Danical]

Oscuro sounds dumb too, but he's always been "if it ain't an empath and or possibly a cleric it should suck" so it's not really surprising.

Really? You mean like all the buffs he gave to rogues when he just recently took them over from Ildran who hasn't done shit in, literally, years?

[Donquix]

Really? You mean like all the buffs he gave to rogues when he just recently took them over from Ildran who hasn't done shit in, literally, years?

came back recently so i missed those apparently.

Someone likely told him "hey look...oscuro...rogues can like...train the shit out of first aid. So really, they are like...ninja empaths"

[Lulfas]

Really? You mean like all the buffs he gave to rogues when he just recently took them over from Ildran who hasn't done shit in, literally, years?

Speaking of which, when he mentions how important RT is, remind him that Vanish has none for some reason.

[drunksolo]

Haste is the most overpowered spell in the game. It's probably the most overpowered spell in every game it's ever been in.

[Archigeek]

Originally Posted by GM Naos
I'm a bit amused at how hung up the discussion has been on the one example of how unbalanced characters in general could adversely affect the playing experience of other characters.

The fact is that haste effects in general are severely overpowered in GemStone. The difference between swinging at 1 second and 5 seconds is huge. The casual threats/promises of cancellation of accounts at the prospect of a merely a 1 second roundtime changing to a 2 second roundtime are a clear indication of this. The larger issue is that swinging at 1 second forever is a trivial matter for wizards, and they sacrifice nothing for this ability. Haste is all benefit, with absolutely no mitigating factors. With Haste running, a wizard is a better warrior than a warrior, and if you can't see the problem there, you live in a world of trees with no forests.

--
Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.

Doesn't sound like haste being self-cast only is what he's concerned about to me.

[Mathari]

This is TL;DR for the PC, I know, but someone can post these comments to the officials if they have access and want to. I wrote them intending to post them myself, but then discovered that trial accounts don't have the ability to post to the forums. I only signed up for GS again fairly recently, and I'm not about to subscribe just to make a post, especially when the post is about a potential nerf that'll make me much less inclined to subscribe anyway.

Here:


I'm not sure that I understand the claim (by Naos) that "swinging at 1 second forever is a trivial matter for wizards, and they sacrifice nothing for this ability." It might be true that *merely* swinging a weapon at 1 second forever is a trivial matter requiring no sacrifice (actually, I think even that's a bit much; at least some, if not many, wizards sacrifice training points in order to get the right amount of Air Lore for this), but it's certainly not true that swinging a weapon at 1 second forever *and* hitting your target or being able to use that weapon to hunt requires no sacrifice. Wizards who want to do this have to scrounge up training points to train as much as possible in Combat Maneuvers, the relevant weapon skill (which can be particularly costly if it's a THW or Polearm), additional armor ranks, etc. This forces them to sacrifice spell training, auxiliary skills (e.g., Lores and more), and so on.

In short, it's not a matter of just being able to swing the weapon quickly. If it's going to matter at all, you're going to need to be able to hit things with it, and that does require sacrifice.

As others have mentioned, the other idea, that (one of) the problems with Haste is that (to quote Oscuro) "you are capable of killing enemies faster and/or entering a defensive stance faster or taking other defensive measures far sooner than if you didn't have the reduced RT," is also strange. I think it's pretty much indisputable that warmages kill slower than pure mages do, at least at higher levels; and at all levels, they're certainly slower at "entering a defensive stance" after attacking, assuming that they're using Haste and their weapon. Killing as a warmage takes a number of swings, aimed at one enemy at a time, with a comparatively low AS, and hard RT. Experienced pure mages can decimate *rooms* by casting a spell with no hard RT, thus allowing them to jump back into defensive even faster than a hasted warmage. Pure mages can do all this while having the additional spell training and auxiliary training that warmages sacrifice, thus having the potential for an overall better DS, etc., too.

Lastly, given warriors' access to surge, berserk, various additional combat maneuvers, 3x PF, better armor types and specializations, access to multiple weapons, the potential for high MoC training, etc., I have a hard time finding plausible the claim that hasted warmages are better warriors than warriors. By choosing to be warmages rather than warriors, warmages have to sacrifice all of those warrior-ish abilities in order to pursue others (e.g., magic). Besides that, I don't know of anyone who has capped a warmage, and I've seen combat logs from higher level warmages that suggest that there can be a lot of "plinking away" there, and that even then a heavy reliance on magic is required. Nothing devastating, by any means.

When it comes right down to it, a move to "nerf" Haste just looks like a move motivated by a particular, hard to understand "vision" of what mages should be, and a vision that ultimately looks like it's trumping concern for player enjoyment.

[Stunseed]

Sheer damage volume makes a warmage trump a warrior. I've done both.

[Fallen]

Sheer damage volume makes a warmage trump a warrior. I've done both.

The squares I hunt with aim for the head or neck, dropping the creature in one shot. Mass damage means little at that point beyond uncrittable creatures. In that case, warriors have Mstrike and Berserk.

[Ceyrin]

The squares I hunt with aim for the head or neck, dropping the creature in one shot. Mass damage means little at that point beyond uncrittable creatures. In that case, warriors have Mstrike and Berserk.

And a higher AS, only further contributing to endroll DF calculations.

[Ceyrin]

I posted this earlier in the thread about haste...

It's probably tl;dr for you folks, but here's hoping, eh?



>> The fact is that haste effects in general are severely overpowered in GemStone. The difference between swinging at 1 second and 5 seconds is huge. The casual threats/promises of cancellation of accounts at the prospect of a merely a 1 second roundtime changing to a 2 second roundtime are a clear indication of this.<< - DENSETSU NAOS

I can only speak for myself about this, but the two things are not specifically connected. My own feelings on the matter come from a much larger disappointment at the overall decision making process, where in development for Gemstone has been and is going. The last two times I can think of issues that were this large for me, were when the decision about Empaths getting MnM and losing MjS was reversed, the other being the decision to make monks a square instead of a semi.

With regards to empaths: To me, this was a decision influenced by sloth. I won't say it had anything to do with the suddeny outcry from players of "We'll hate you forever" nor do I make any illusions that my own sentiment about the still-unknown impending changes to haste will have any similar outcome. To me, it did nothing to bring any sort of balance to the concept of what was outlined and stated that would be the premise for magic systems going forward in GSIV. Yes, I understand development views change over time. My own perception is that these developmental views changed because it was going to be hard to do. As a result, Empaths remain an extremely unbalanced profession in almost every regard.

The problem as I viewed it with monks was yet again sloth. Sloth in the short term, which will eventually be paid for in the long term. I understand making a whole circle of spells is likely an EXTREMELY difficult undertaking, and I don't envy the people who have been responsible for programming the impending MnM circle. I can understand why the decision was made, but that doesn't make it something I can agree with just the same. So now there is no Monk circle, and the "monk" circle becomes "shared" with the MnM circle.

In the short term, monks will see their release and now only have access to one new spell circle, this circle in particular is meant to be "their" circle though. The spells (while very interesting and cool) contained in the MnM circle will have direct applications for aspects of combat related to being a square. Spells to create armor-like substitutes, UAC augmenting spells (I forget what else), to name a couple. These spells will be wonderful for Monks I am sure. In the short term, this is all good and dandy.

Fast forward a few years to when Savants eventually find their way in to Gemstone (don't laugh, I've always had faith and hope it would happen despite my own RSN jokes). Assuming of course that the savant class finds itself released as a pure still (which I wouldn't be surprised to learn it becomes a semi instead), they will have access to MnM. Now what? They have access to these spells that monks use to make themselves be awesome with the impending UAC system. The same thing is going to happen. People are going to find a way to make savants that fully utilize these spells and take advantage of them. You'll have to make the training costs for savants in the relevant skills absurdly prohibitive, and even then I'm sure people will still find a way.

So now we're in the same boat. Savants are doing something they aren't intended to, and why? Poor planing and sloth on the part of the Dev teams. The real kicker here is that just like Oscuro and Naos have inherited the folly of their predecessors, I expect that when savants are an eventual reality the GMs who are responsible will likely not be the ones who left them holding the proverbial bag.

When your business model smacks of 'pass the buck', people start to notice. It's not fair to the GMs, it's not fair to the players, and ultimately it's just a load of crap that you ask people who love and enjoy the product (both GM and player alike) to swallow. Is the game all about mechanics? No, there is plenty of it to be had that has absolutely nothing to do with leveling your character and mechanical advancement. I spend more time engaged in this sort of play than any other sort lately.

To be clear though, I don't blame Naos or Oscuro for the decision to alter haste. I blame the people who approve these sorts of decisions, whoever they are. Be it APM Sirina or whoever it is that's over her.

>>The larger issue is that swinging at 1 second forever is a trivial matter for wizards, and they sacrifice nothing for this ability. Haste is all benefit, with absolutely no mitigating factors. With Haste running, a wizard is a better warrior than a warrior, and if you can't see the problem there, you live in a world of trees with no forests.<< - DENSETSU NAOS

The bottom line is I lived with 2 second and even 3 second hasted attacks for several levels. It was fun, and I still enjoyed it. I obviously enjoyed it all the more when it was finally 1 second, which I am not ashamed to admit. I'm sure if I wanted to I could live with it being that way again.

What I can't stomach is my perception of what I have described above. What I can't tolerate is the feeling of being cheated out of time (forget the money). Time is a precious commodity, my recognition of this likely has something to do with my enjoyment of the warmage build. I spent a lot of time and effort in to developing a character who's very premise revolves around being a warmage. I'm sure if I wanted to I could find a way to roleplay around/out of it. I guess I just don't like roleplaying decisions to be forced upon me or my characters because of a lack of developmental foresight, or just absurd fiat (for example the recent non-toggleable 318 messaging)

As I said before, I recognize it's all the property of Simu and they can do whatever they want whenver they want and I agreed to all of that. It doesn't make it any easier to swallow though.

[StrayRogue]

The squares I hunt with aim for the head or neck, dropping the creature in one shot. Mass damage means little at that point beyond uncrittable creatures. In that case, warriors have Mstrike and Berserk.

As a THW user who ambushes the shit out of everything, I'd rather be able to swing my weapon 5 times than swing once with a higher percentage of killing it in a hit.

Being caught in RT is the ONLY way I get killed now. Consider a single attack from me causes about 120+ damage, I'd be doing 600 damage in the same amount of time it takes me to do an ambush. Also consider that EBP can totally negate a single attack for five seconds.

[StrayRogue]

If more than 1 attack per five seconds is nerfworthy, maybe they can also look at nerfing:

TWC
Mstrike
archery
brawling
all weapons faster than 5 seconds
unarmed combat
certain combat maneuvers
etc, etc, etc



Try swinging a lance. Then try any brawling weapon. The rt difference is to make up the shocking damage of those smaller weapons.

[Sam]

As someone who only plays a warrior, I don't think it would be too unreasonable to at least require more lore or spell ranks for a wizard to easily hit the 1 second RT mark.

I don't know how fast a mage can easily obtain 27 MjE ranks and 24 Air Lore ranks, but that seems like a pretty low requirement to be able to swing the slowest weapons in the game in 1 second (assuming superior agidex).

In the level 20-30 range a warrior may have a little bit of redux, but is still a long way from wearing plate, meanwhile a warmage has a much higher DS and even with a lower AS, can have way higher melee damage output than a class that is maybe the most restricted in hunting methods (melee).

I'm not voting for this sort of change, as it doesn't really pertain to me, but some sort of change doesn't seem completely unreasonable.

I would be hindered a bit if it was made completely self-cast, for the times I do get haste when hunting it's pretty awesome. I think a 1-3 minute cooldown (can't be hasted again) would be fair.


edit: I just thought of something that actually might indirectly impact my gaming experience as a result of haste. I have no evidence to back this up, and I don't even know if I've ever seen a warmage in the bowels, but I'm going to start blaming hasted wizards for wiping out all the loot in my hunting areas! I'm convinced that while I sleep, warmages are zipping through hundreds and hundreds of critters and stealing all my treasures! While I do have the ability to tear through shit quickly with berserk, I pay for it by not being able to loot. Seriously though, treasure balance is something that affects everyone who hunts, regardless of profession. That's the type of balance I would like to see addressed.

[Fallen]

>>>I am, because when you reduce RT, you are capable of killing enemies faster and/or entering a defensive stance faster or taking other defensive measures far sooner than if you didn't have the reduced RT. If you're walking around in offensive stance all the time, then you're imposing the risk on yourself; it's not inherent with the build.<<

>>I'm not even sure we're having the same conversation at this point. When was the last time you even played Gemstone?

If you can't recognize that less RT means you're freer to act then you're kidding yourself. That's true by definition of RT. And I also chuckle every time I hear the "do you even PLAY the game?!" comments. They're always thrown out when people don't like a decision b/c it adversely affects them. (Yes, I do play - I typically play way more than is probably good for me, although this past month I haven't as I've started a new job.) The fact is that as GMs, we not only have the perspective of a player, but we have a more global perspective of how things affect the entirety of the game. We have numerous data collecting tools, such as ones to see which creatures are overhunted and by whom and if we ever need a new data collecting tool, we are capable of coding one. Couple that knowledge with our experiences as players, and we have a more informed outlook than the average player, which is necessary for the job. The argument "do you even play," is poor debate.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
*

TLDR version: No, I havent played a warwizard.

[Fallen]

Class-based advantages are a natural part of a class-based system. The fact that Empaths excel as the heartiest of the pures (with their physical fitness access) is an intentional design aspect. This is an important facet of the healing portion of the class. They need quick access to a high amount of HPs and need a high natural HP recovery rate. Perhaps later, they may also need the stamina associated with additional PF training.

Empaths casting through their primary circle through wounds again is an intentional benefit of the class, just as Bards not losing mana when armor hindrance affects their primary circle. Class-based systems yield class-based benefits.

Empaths can pull off chain class armors, but it comes at a significant TP investment (their armor training cost is even higher than Wizards'). Clerics do this much better, and again, it is an aspect of spiritual magic. Notice that the Empath circle hindrances are actually higher in the heavier armors than the spiritual circles, though. It does not reach the level of difficulty that Wizards and Sorcerers have, but it is still out-paced by Clerics. These are intentional design aspects - Empaths are meant to be hearty and well-defended.

However, that heartiness is meant to come at a cost - their attack prowess. Empaths have a far smaller list of options of attack and disabling spells than the other pures classes, by a significant margin from the Wizard/Sorcerer side and slightly on the Cleric side (though I'd like to see more Cleric attacks). I agree that Empaths have an unfair advantage when it comes to physical attack strength. They do outpace some semis (albeit by a very small margin). The fact that 1109 only increases melee AS and not affecting bolt AS for a pure class is odd design, in my opinion, and is an obvious left over from the GS3 days when Empaths had no offensive spells to pull them through combat. Though I'm of the mindset that Clerics and Sorcerers could use some help in the bolt AS area, it doesn't mean that Empath bolt AS is too high. Wizards are their superior by a large enough margin.

The Sigil of Power discussion has been beaten to death and while I agree that an Empath is the pure class that easily can take the most advantage of it, it requires a significant TP investment to even come close to the efficacy of Sign of Wracking. It's not an issue, at least at this time.

I don't know what the issue with Empath TP costs is. I think they're absolutely in line with where they need to be. What is the concern there exactly?

Healing experience has also been discussed to death, and the final verdict is that it comes so infrequently that it is not of balance concern in the regard that they have it available. What is concerning is that there is virtually no risk involved in healing yet the amount of experience is relatively significant. With hunting there is obvious risk, with lockpicking there are deadly traps. Healing carries only the risk of bleeding out or over healing blood, both of which only occur when one is new at the practice or completely not paying attention. We'd like to incorporate more risk for the reward.

Additionally, the other substantive alt. exp. gain form, lockpicking, requires TP investments. We'd like there to be a clearer TP investment that goes along with healing. The skills that are obvious for that are Physical Fitness, First Aid and Mental Lore - Transformation and, to a lesser degree, Spiritual Lore - Blessings. We already have begun adding in these aspects, but we think we can do more in this regard.

One final "inequity" that I'm aware of but wasn't on the list is the idea of hybrid CS/TD calculations. As it stands, the Empath spell circle is considered a fully spiritual circle with respect to CS and TD calculations. With the release of the MnM list, we will update Empath TD spells to provide hybrid Spiritual-Mental TD and the Empath circle will be considered a hybrid Spiritual-Mental CS circle, thus receiving fractional benefits from either Spiritual or Mental CS boosters. This is a minor adjustment in the end, but it's something that needs to be resolved.

I think I addressed all the concerns. In summary, I do agree that Empaths have a couple areas that need work and we would like to address these eventually, but they are not on our short list at the moment. (As for Estild and I, that short list right now is comprised of unarmed combat, 340, the Monk CML and the FWI hunting.)

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
*
He rationalizes all these advantages away, and the sad part is his higher-ups must be buying it. Unbelievable.

[Rathain]

TLDR version: No, I havent played a warwizard.

Heh. Sounds pretty similar to conversations he has had with players in the past in cleric folder. Basically it boiled down to "I can run thousands of instances, so our opinion > your opinion." Having not played the class themselves beyond 20 or 40 doesn't mean anything to them, because they are running a bunch of attack instances. Same guys that when queried a few years ago about a spell training design, they deemed a 25% warding failure rate to be acceptable risk. Really, they have set parameters in mind for what they call fun, like dying 10% of the time when hunting (this was in a conversation you had with Estild if you recall Fallen.) Its just what they do.

[B4Hand]

He rationalizes all these advantages away, and the sad part is his higher-ups must be buying it. Unbelievable.

I think it doesn't help complaining to the Empath/Cleric team about what the other classes lack. I think until someone higher up is actually interested in paying attention to the Sorcerer class, things aren't going to get better for it. I may be confused however every time I see someone complain about another class having unfair advantages, I think how is that going to help the class these people want fixed?

[Shattered Dreamer]

Sylvancode, you're absolutely right. We are horrible, horrible people that have never done anything good for the game. Thank you for your constructive post that has absolutely opened our eyes to why we are nothing but bad guys. You can go back to hunting myklians now...oh wait.

GameMaster Oscuro



Izzea pulled his post and then mine, what an ugly whore.

[audioserf]

lmao Oscuro is a cock but seeing GMs trolling people is hilarious

[SpiffyJr]

lmao Oscuro is a cock but seeing GMs trolling people is hilarious

Did I miss something?

This message is hidden because Shattered Dreamer is on your ignore list.

[audioserf]

Hell yeah you did bro here you go
=======

Sylvancode, you're absolutely right. We are horrible, horrible people that have never done anything good for the game. Thank you for your constructive post that has absolutely opened our eyes to why we are nothing but bad guys. You can go back to hunting myklians now...oh wait.

GameMaster Oscuro

[inso]

We're done with this thread, since I've had to remove far too many off topic posts. Further posts will be removed and relevant cautions/warnings given.

-Izzea

So two people bitch at each other and now mages cannot argue against changes to their class-defining spell. Rather than simply giving suspensions to those already warned in the thread. How convenient.

[audioserf]

Izzea is probably 42 years old, 314lbs, single and owns nine cats

[StrayRogue]

Izzea is probably 42 years old, 314lbs, single and owns nine cats

You'd be wrong.

It's pretty sad how a few months ago there was a WE LOVE YOU OSCURO thread and now everyone hates his guts. Seriously: every class has their advantage, everyone of them has an overpowered or unique attribute of some sort. I don't understand what the big deal is.

[Tolwynn]

The silly thing is, it's not like it's exactly hard for a warrior or whoever to get access to haste, either. A little MIU and a little silver for some wiregrass imbeddibles, and you're good to go, and that's assuming you can't find a wizard to hunt with to cast it on the fly.

[audioserf]

I don't have much time for GS and if my build's looking to lose out soon, that blows. I don't have the patience to make a new character, even though at 46 my mage isn't high level by any means.

Just frustrating, really. What are you gonna do.

[Willington]

Just roll with the changes.(if it ever happens-Breakage comes in mind)
Anyone remember the original badass Warmages?....Hunting in Full Plate swinging 2 weapons with haste on and 4 hours of 919..Sorcerers used to hunt in full plate and cast in defensive...Dam,this game used to Rock

[Donquix]

Caught up with the conversation after leaving last night and Oscuro and Naos' positions are so fucking laughable. it's sad they're in charge of designing things :\

Naos: You disagree with me, which proves I am right.

Oscuro: Warmages make a number as low as it can go, therefore they are overpowered. Also, empaths are not overpowered because they are within their planned design...which happens to be overpowered, but it's fine because it was intended.

[Danical]

Caught up with the conversation after leaving last night and Oscuro and Naos' positions are so fucking laughable. it's sad they're in charge of designing things :\

Naos: You disagree with me, which proves I am right.

Oscuro: Warmages make a number as low as it can go, therefore they are overpowered. Also, empaths are not overpowered because they are within their planned design...which happens to be overpowered, but it's fine because it was intended.

If you run the numbers, you can achieve a 1 RT aimed claid shots fairly quickly. Claids are perfect for warmages because their AS/DS resolutions dwindle with level, but as long as you deal a rank 1 wound, you'll have 40 points of crit weighting. That's pretty ridiculous considering any script you make can aim right leg (assuming you get a rank 1 you'll probably prone the creature), and then aim head. It literally takes 2 seconds to dispatch a creature or 410 and then aim head x <number of creatures in the room>.

[Donquix]

If you run the numbers, you can achieve a 1 RT aimed claid shots fairly quickly. Claids are perfect for warmages because their AS/DS resolutions dwindle with level, but as long as you deal a rank 1 wound, you'll have 40 points of crit weighting. That's pretty ridiculous considering any script you make can aim right leg (assuming you get a rank 1 you'll probably prone the creature), and then aim head. It literally takes 2 seconds to dispatch a creature or 410 and then aim head x <number of creatures in the room>.

I'm not saying haste can't be extremely effective.

i'm saying i don't see it as any more effective than the multitude of other ways to dispatch creatures just as fast.

[ZeP]

If you run the numbers, you can achieve a 1 RT aimed claid shots fairly quickly. Claids are perfect for warmages because their AS/DS resolutions dwindle with level, but as long as you deal a rank 1 wound, you'll have 40 points of crit weighting. That's pretty ridiculous considering any script you make can aim right leg (assuming you get a rank 1 you'll probably prone the creature), and then aim head. It literally takes 2 seconds to dispatch a creature or 410 and then aim head x <number of creatures in the room>.

2 seconds per creature is an exaggeration. You aren't accounting for things like evade/block/parry, combat mobility, and failure to land a strike at all on an aimed attempt. Or the modifier for aiming larger weapons.

[Danical]

I'm not saying haste can't be extremely effective.

i'm saying i don't see it as any more effective than the multitude of other ways to dispatch creatures just as fast.

And what I'm saying is you can't dispatch creatures just as fast when comparing physical attacks.

[Danical]

2 seconds per creature is an exaggeration. You aren't accounting for things like evade/block/parry, combat mobility, and failure to land a strike at all on an aimed attempt. Or the modifier for aiming larger weapons.

You're right. Except, that argument makes it WAAAAAY worse when comparing 1 aimed strikes from a mage to 6 RT aimed strikes from a warrior. Although, warriors will have a better chance to aim. Hitting the leg, which is stupid easy, makes further aiming on prone creatures SIGNIFICANTLY easier.

What creatures have combat mobility? Destroyers and . . . ? Also, combat mobility gives you a chance to STAND as per usual. If you have significant wounds on your leg from being proned/legged, you won't be standing up. Just like destroyers have difficulty with even rank 2 leg wounds.

[ZeP]

Grimswarm do it a lot. Also probably some warrior-type mobs like one of the minotaurs, or shan warriors, things along those lines. And yeah if you sever the leg it can't do the move but what if you can't hit it straight up and need the set up spell?

Not to say reducing RT isn't powerful, but I think a warmage is just an effective build, not an OP build. Does anyone even do it in the 80+ areas?

[Fallen]

I think it doesn't help complaining to the Empath/Cleric team about what the other classes lack. I think until someone higher up is actually interested in paying attention to the Sorcerer class, things aren't going to get better for it. I may be confused however every time I see someone complain about another class having unfair advantages, I think how is that going to help the class these people want fixed?

Your point regarding Sorcerer development and active GM interest is certainly valid. However, it has no bearing on the discussion. The argument concerning Empaths began when their Guru, Oscuro, claimed that it was Warmages that were far too overpowered. Claiming Warmages are out of balance compared to the advantages of the modern day Empath is what has us all scratching our head, and wonder what the hell game Oscuro is playing.

[caelric]

and wonder what the hell game Oscuro is playing.

Apparently, Oscuro plays far too much GS, and has 'thousands of instances running'

Given the memory leaf issue with Stormfront, I find that hard to believe, but whatever

[Fallen]

Apparently, Oscuro plays far too much GS, and has 'thousands of instances running'

Given the memory leaf issue with Stormfront, I find that hard to believe, but whatever

Lawl.

[Donquix]

And what I'm saying is you can't dispatch creatures just as fast when comparing physical attacks.

I think mstrike/berserk comes pretty damn close, and are superior in a LOT of situations. Being in 5-6 sec rt doesn't matter when everything is dead or disabled at the 0 mark.

Personally, and I realize many may disagree with this, i don't think it matters that it's a physical attack at all. You do things, damage happens. I don't think who is doing what should be a primary concern.

[Sylvan Dreams]

I think it doesn't help complaining to the Empath/Cleric team about what the other classes lack. I think until someone higher up is actually interested in paying attention to the Sorcerer class, things aren't going to get better for it. I may be confused however every time I see someone complain about another class having unfair advantages, I think how is that going to help the class these people want fixed?

You're obviously not reading the thread. Just because Fallen's character was a sorcerer doesn't mean that he feels sorcerers are being neglected because empaths are overpowered. He's saying that empaths are overpowered and need some adjustments in order to make them a little more balanced in terms of cost versus benefits gained, and that warmages (and every other pure) are most definitely NOT overpowered when you compare them to empaths. Oscuro was the one making the claim that warmages are overpowered - it just so happens that he was the empath coder. No one's bitching to the empath/cleric team.

[Archigeek]

You're obviously not reading the thread. Just because Fallen's character was a sorcerer doesn't mean that he feels sorcerers are being neglected because empaths are overpowered. He's saying that empaths are overpowered and need some adjustments in order to make them a little more balanced in terms of cost versus benefits gained, and that warmages (and every other pure) are most definitely NOT overpowered when you compare them to empaths. Oscuro was the one making the claim that warmages are overpowered - it just so happens that he was the empath coder. No one's bitching to the empath/cleric team.

The problem with empaths is that they are effectively semi's, but can train to pure levels in some skills and to square levels in others. Crazy.

[Fallen]

The problem with empaths is that they are effectively semi's, but can train to pure levels in some skills and to square levels in others. Crazy.

Nah, that's crazy talk. They're just hearty and well-defended.

[B4Hand]

You're obviously not reading the thread. Just because Fallen's character was a sorcerer doesn't mean that he feels sorcerers are being neglected because empaths are overpowered. He's saying that empaths are overpowered and need some adjustments in order to make them a little more balanced in terms of cost versus benefits gained, and that warmages (and every other pure) are most definitely NOT overpowered when you compare them to empaths. Oscuro was the one making the claim that warmages are overpowered - it just so happens that he was the empath coder. No one's bitching to the empath/cleric team.

The ENTIRE thread is made of of all sorts of posts, not just one topic. I've heard several people complain about empaths, and how it isn't fair/right that the class gets that much attention and work, while other classes do not. NO ONE was implying that Fallen was bitching to the emapth/cleric team. Obviously the people in charge of putting time and effort into the empath/cleric team are going to think the work they've done is terrific.

Yeesh.

[B4Hand]

Nah, that's crazy talk. They're just hearty and well-defended.

Want to play the best class..play an empath?

[Fallen]

Want to play the best class..play an empath?

I would happily settle with them not nerfing everyone else. Apparently, Oscuro et all is not.

[B4Hand]

I would happily settle with them not nerfing everyone else. Apparently, Oscuro et all is not.

I agree no more nerfs. I never meant to come across that I believed any of the nerfs were alright by me.

[Fallen]

I agree no more nerfs. I never meant to come across that I believed any of the nerfs were alright by me.

I don't think nerfs to professions are needed either. The staff disagrees. I just want them to understand that there are far greater inequities out there than those at the top of their list.

[Sylvan Dreams]

NO ONE was implying that Fallen was bitching to the emapth/cleric team. Obviously the people in charge of putting time and effort into the empath/cleric team are going to think the work they've done is terrific.

Yeesh.

You did. In the post I quoted.




ANYWAY.

Personally, I think that while there are a few empaths that are in fact well trained and are monsters, the majority of empaths fall far short of this potential. Until the majority of empaths are trained X way, I don't believe it will be considered to be overpowered. Look at how many wizards run on Immolation or Haste as their primary spells, and look at which spells might be nerfed.

[Ceyrin]

I don't think nerfs to professions are needed either. The staff disagrees. I just want them to understand that there are far greater inequities out there than those at the top of their list.


I think the big problem here is Naos is all butt-hurt, or expects to be anyway. He's been working on this elore review for what, 2 and a half years now? More and more wizards are just warmages, who would probably not benefit from it much or wouldn't care about it anyway. This will just invalidate his work, and be a total repeat of alchemy.

In his derangement, he clearly believes that squashing out the warmage build is going to make him more popular. He's been playing a Malkavian too long (white wolf reference ftl?).

[StrayRogue]

You did. In the post I quoted.




ANYWAY.

Personally, I think that while there are a few empaths that are in fact well trained and are monsters, the majority of empaths fall far short of this potential. Until the majority of empaths are trained X way, I don't believe it will be considered to be overpowered. Look at how many wizards run on Immolation or Haste as their primary spells, and look at which spells might be nerfed.

Excellent point, and one that I entirely agree on. Personally I think bards are the most OP. They can swing with insane RTs and can cast a mass damage spell that pwns practically anything in the game (IF trained right - just like empaths).

As a player of a mid-60's 'puff, I can totally attest that they aren't "all that". As a caster/healer, I plink just as well as any sorcerer, save that I lack any control or instant kill spells.

[Rathain]

The ENTIRE thread is made of of all sorts of posts, not just one topic. I've heard several people complain about empaths, and how it isn't fair/right that the class gets that much attention and work, while other classes do not. NO ONE was implying that Fallen was bitching to the emapth/cleric team. Obviously the people in charge of putting time and effort into the empath/cleric team are going to think the work they've done is terrific.

Yeesh.

I was the one bitching about the cleric/empath team, not Fallen. I personally think that for all the work they seem to have put into clerics, clerics still suck. I played with just about every variation of a cleric that I could conceive, and they fall well short of empaths in effectiveness of various builds. It's disappointing.

Now they are getting their feet wet with wizard updates. There is no surprise what will happen here. You might get better messaging, a perk here or there, but the spell will be gutted in effectiveness. But hey, people did want their classes to be looked it, right ? Change is good, unless it isn't. If I played a sorcerer, the last thing I would want is Estild or Oscuro making updates.

[Danical]

Apparently, Oscuro plays far too much GS, and has 'thousands of instances running'

Given the memory leaf issue with Stormfront, I find that hard to believe, but whatever

I don't think that was even close to the quote. I thought he said he has many ways to pull data. etc.

[Fallen]

>>>The disappearing was normal, but there was no messaging for when he either returned or entered the room (I don't know for sure that this was the same one that faded on me).

>>I believe it happens when they are too injured to fade in attacking/casting.

I'm pretty sure I've fixed this, but these phasing mechanics are pretty complex. Let me know if you notice this anymore or any other weirdness with phasing. Thanks.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team
*

Someone grab the twin hammerfist fix too.

[Kitsun]

I was the one bitching about the cleric/empath team, not Fallen. I personally think that for all the work they seem to have put into clerics, clerics still suck. I played with just about every variation of a cleric that I could conceive, and they fall well short of empaths in effectiveness of various builds. It's disappointing.

Now they are getting their feet wet with wizard updates. There is no surprise what will happen here. You might get better messaging, a perk here or there, but the spell will be gutted in effectiveness. But hey, people did want their classes to be looked it, right ? Change is good, unless it isn't. If I played a sorcerer, the last thing I would want is Estild or Oscuro making updates.

Clerics are just bleh. I have a feeling it may be because any new flavorful design is split into 93286496 directions because of deity considerations.

Honestly, I'd be happier if Naos quit and wizard updates took a back seat for a while. I think his track record is like 4-5 awful fucking changes to mages for one mediocre improvement. His recommended elore change isn't remotely worth having him come near to touching Haste and Cone.

[Ryvicke]

Hunting-wise clerics are more than capable, they're just boring*. It's all the non-hunting stuff that makes clerics fun.

*although group-wise I think clerics rival bards for best group hunting spells.

[drunksolo]

I haven't cared too much about Naos's changes one way or another, but he's just a dick, plain and simple....

[Ceyrin]

It's pretty bad taste for GMs to troll like he does, that's for sure.

[Donquix]

Someone grab the twin hammerfist fix too.

there was a twin hammerfist fix? both weapons can flare now plz?

edit: oh it was. i still hate him, but this is a great change for my warrior :)


>cman twinham kob
[Roll result: 176 (open d100: 70) Penalties: 45]
You raise your hands high, lace them together and bring them crashing down towards the kobold!
You catch the kobold square in the back! It topples to the ground in a dazed heap!

** Your zorchar troll-claw emits a searing bolt of lightning! **

... 15 points of damage!
Nasty shock to the head. The kobold looks dazed and confused.

** Your drakar troll-claw flares with a burst of flame! **

... 25 points of damage!
Right hand fried to a crisp. Think barbecue sauce.
The kobold cries out in pain one last time and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

Twin Hammerfists has been updated to have the off-hand weapon flare if one is using TWC. Spiked or flaring arm armor only applies when using the maneuver open handed, though.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

https://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=4&topic=4&message=14361

[Ryvicke]

It's pretty bad taste for GMs to troll like he does, that's for sure.

If you're talking about Oscuro I'll disagree. I'm perfectly happy with how Oscuro posts.

[Danical]

If you're talking about Oscuro I'll disagree. I'm perfectly happy with how Oscuro posts.

:yeahthat:

He's almost always very considerate until he's pushed to the point of responding, in kind, so to speak.

At least that's what I've seen. I read like, three folders on the officials.

[Ceyrin]

If you're talking about Oscuro I'll disagree. I'm perfectly happy with how Oscuro posts.

My bad, I totally didn't quote the post right behind mine and it was clearly too out of context for you to comprehend. :rofl:

I was talking about Naos.

[Rathain]

Hunting-wise clerics are more than capable, they're just boring*. It's all the non-hunting stuff that makes clerics fun.

*although group-wise I think clerics rival bards for best group hunting spells.

I'm not disagreeing with you -- every class in gemstone IV is capable of hunting to cap self spelled. However, some classes are more fun to play than others, and I'm enjoying shattered, ironically, as a war mage. As Kitsun said, clerics are really meh.

Ironically, after selling my cleric, I started playing Shattered as a warmage and was liking it. Now the nerf bat comes around again and this time, it's justified as the warmage build is overpowered. That empaths are seen as balanced but warmages aren't... really doesn't compute. Oscuro seems like a good guy, but his rationale is absolute horse shit.

[BriarFox]

I'm not disagreeing with you -- every class in gemstone IV is capable of hunting to cap self spelled. However, some classes are more fun to play than others, and I'm enjoying shattered, ironically, as a war mage. As Kitsun said, clerics are really meh.

Ironically, after selling my cleric, I started playing Shattered as a warmage and was liking it. Now the nerf bat comes around again and this time, it's justified as the warmage build is overpowered. That empaths are seen as balanced but warmages aren't... really doesn't compute. Oscuro seems like a good guy, but his rationale is absolute horse shit.

It's just a case of biased blindness, I think. He's a smart guy, so it's odd that he'd rather nerf healing than reconsider something else. If they just made it so offensive spells couldn't be cast with major wounds or put in incentives not to use heavy armor, I think most people would shut up. That said, you really don't get someone maxed out in healing, melee, armor, CS, and bolts and doing them all at once.

[Fallen]

That empaths are seen as balanced but warmages aren't... really doesn't compute. Oscuro seems like a good guy, but his rationale is absolute horse shit.

That's always been my feelings on O as well. He's a good, hard working guy, but at times, he seems out of touch.

[Fallen]

>Yeah. If there's ever a GS5, this should be a priority. Make items able to have multiple scripts. It would be total awesomeness.

There are functional reasons why this doesn't work in most cases. We do currently have the capability to create insertion points for a secondary script on an item, but an item's primary script needs to be set up to check for things that the secondary can do, which adds some extra hassle when scriptwriting.

A lot of item scripts, also, revolve around common activation verbs like TAP, RUB, RAISE, etc., so it would be of dubious value to set up a script to look at an item's subscript for that reason in a majority of cases. It's not that it's never done, it's just... how do you choose?

Finally, there's the simple reason of game balance--a good number of scripts simply provide sufficient benefits, even if they're just roleplayed bonuses, in and of themselves.

I agree that it would be nice if certain things like Loresongs were general-use and could be put on any item regardless of its current script, though. One thing I will say against that is that I hate writing them!

Auchand

It's funnier in Enochian.
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=12&topic=29&message=20969

[Lumi]

Hey sorcerers...



For various behind-the-scenes reasons, I've decided to do a couple pieces of the Sorcerer circle review a little early. We're previewing one of these pieces tonight in this post.

Keep in mind as you read this that none of these things are official yet. The team is still reviewing this spell, so any of these details may change at any time.

The current spell in the 713 slot, Nightmare, will be combined with the current spell of Curse to become one of many new features of that spell. In its place will be Balefire, a new ball-type aimed spell. It will use existing ball spell mechanics, meaning among other things that a successful hit can result in an explosion that damages multiple targets, and the Multi-Opponent skill will increase the minimum number of targets struck. Demonology lore will be the factor that increases the maximum number of targets, as well as increasing the amount of damage dealt to the first target.

The damage being done is plasma-based, and features a completely new damage table (for those who like to experiment with such things).

In addition, if the caster has a minor demon present, the demon can be forced to contribute damage to the initial strike at the cost of a few of the demon's mana points, never more than 3. The cost can be reduced based on the sum of the caster's Spiritual Mana Control and Elemental Mana Control bonuses. The damage done by this extra attack will be roughly proportional to the critical damage done by the caster in the initial strike.

The type of damage done will depend on the demon's native valence:
Grik'tyr: randomly either disintegration or crushing damage
Shien'tyr: randomly either vacuum or unbalancing damage
Lorae'tyr: randomly either steam or disruption damage

Example:

>prep 713
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
>cast troll
You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +232 vs DS: +66 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +52 = +257
... and hit for 66 points of damage!
Skin blasted away leaving exposed and bloody muscle!
The jungle troll is stunned!
An inquisitive pure white imp shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your pure white imp loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the jungle troll's chest!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 40 points of damage!
Intense arc of energy flays the jungle troll's arm to the bone!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 45 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the jungle troll's leg to explode!
It is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 40 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg!
It is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

That's with 50 demonology ranks, versus the trolls' natural brigandine-like hide. As you can see, the spell has been completed on the development server, and some of the other GMs have already been trying it out. I can't give any indication of when it might be ready for release, however, because the spell introduces a number of incidental issues like the two below:

I anticipate that people will complain that demons, like most pet-type creatures, have a habit of lagging behind the owner by a few rooms, and that in a combat situation where timing is critical, that bonus attack will often be lost while the demon is catching up to a fast-moving owner. We plan to address that by changing these creatures so that they follow much more quickly, possibly instantly.

People will also be quick to point out that the presence of a direct aimed attack spell represents a major change in the composition of this spell list which makes it similar to the other pure caster's profession lists, and yet there is still a glaring disparity in the lack of a bolt AS enhancer. We already have plans for this, but that will be discussed in another (future) thread.

-Strath


Looks pretty sweet to me!

[Donquix]

Interesting. I hope they extend instant demon change to all pets.

[Gibreficul]

..... about fuckin time.

[BriarFox]

Meditate update:


MEDITATE has been updated to be less restrictive. Now, Clerics, Empaths (and eventually Savants), can meditate for two minutes under the old mechanics, then continue to gain the benefits for an additional ten minutes as long as they remain on a node or sanctuary. You will receive messaging once the two minutes has passed, alerting you that you may interact again. In addition, the effect will now show up under SPELL ACTIVE.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

This message was originally posted in Clerics, Cleric General Discussion. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=25&topic=31&message=1433

[Latrinsorm]

Could they possibly mean the old, broken, ridiculously overpowered mechanics, or has meditate been changed again? I am perplexed.

[Danical]

I don't get it.

[Tolwynn]

You don't have to stay inert and unresponsive the entire time while meditating now.

[Danical]

Oh, neat.

[Fallen]

Vanern vanished and stopped communicating with us over the last few months. Mining and Smelting will instead be combined with the Forging review and will be a 2011 goal.

Coase
Huh.

[Farn]

I know what that's like.

I'll have to get on mining and smelting and see if I can one-up them.

[Danical]

rofflewaffles.

2010 Casualties:

Mining and Smelting
Thrown Review

[Fallen]

>> A familiar will never boost your chance of success, it
>> can only hinder you or have no effect.

Incorrect. If you do not have a familiar summoned, there is no bonus or penalty to Enchanting success. Having a familiar summoned and in the same room as your character contributes a bonus to Enchanting success. Having a familiar summoned but in a different room than your character contributes a penalty to Enchanting success.

I'm not sure from where any notion otherwise may have come.

--
Naos

Kind of already known, but nice to see this stuff from the mouth of GMs from time to time.

[WRoss]

If someone uses WARN INTERACT and then continues to provoke/interact, then the warn should just be ignored. It's pretty easy for a GM to see whether someone is a chronic "provoke-warn-provoke" offender. I've never seen a case where just because one person used WARN, their word is taken as gold, and the other person is assumed to be in the wrong. If you've directly been involved in such a case, I'd like to hear about it. If someone told you they were involved in such a case, you might want to consider whether they're telling the whole story.

~Sirina

Yay!

[IorakeWarhammer]

Welfidia is toast, then.

[Fallen]

I'm reviewing the teleportation, justice and pickpocketing restrictions. I have no ETA on any changes.

Itzel

Team Plat
Forest Gnome Guru
Elven Nations Guru
Wordsmiths Guru


This is concerning Ta'Vaalor.

[Androidpk]

Any word yet on the 2011 goals?

[Fallen]

Any word yet on the 2011 goals?

No. Looks like outside of CE dev is dead at the moment. Meaning, if your town/CHE/MHO guru can't do it, it likely wont get done.

[prance1520]

No. Looks like outside of CE dev is dead at the moment. Meaning, if your town/CHE/MHO guru can't do it, it likely wont get done.

If this is true, its too bad. I put in an application for a GM position a little over a month ago and haven't heard anything back. I don't have a ton of time, but as a software engineer by trade, I'm would imagine (unless its unbelievable complex) that I could complete one of the 2010 goals over the course of a year on 10 hours a week. I tried to be clear that I'd pass on ANY compensation and do it for progress of the game.

[Ryvicke]

Yay!

Was this ever in question? Did Sirina really tell you anything new in that post? Why does it seem like in that entire thread you're the only person that doesn't understand how that (admittedly stupid) fucking verb works? If you want a small clue as to why you've gotten GM harassed over and over again in your excruciatingly long gemstone career it's cause you're a jackass.

[Danical]

Any word yet on the 2011 goals?

I lol'd.

[Beguiler]

Any word yet on the 2011 goals?



http://s-ec-sm.buzzfeed.com/static/imagebuzz/web02/2009/3/20/15/but-then-i-seriousd-again-when-i-read-all-the-15648-1237576479-4.jpg

[caelric]

Any word yet on the 2011 goals?

And knowing the goals for 2011 is important, b/c so many of the 2010 goals were completed...

[Inspire]

And knowing the goals for 2011 is important, b/c so many of the 2010 goals were completed...


Their goals for 2011 are to keep us so busy with exciting RP events that we don't notice the lack of development.

[WRoss]

Was this ever in question? Did Sirina really tell you anything new in that post? Why does it seem like in that entire thread you're the only person that doesn't understand how that (admittedly stupid) fucking verb works? If you want a small clue as to why you've gotten GM harassed over and over again in your excruciatingly long gemstone career it's cause you're a jackass.

I haven't been harassed in years. And no, that isn't clear. A few people have been questioning whether Sirina was correct or not as ignoring that verb has resulted in people getting warns. I wanted clarification if I could ignore that verb when people like Inspire (Kizun/Tycine) and Welfidia harass me then hide behind the verb. Thanks for your input and feel free to hop on the hate train with the likes of Inspire and Welfidia.

[Inspire]

I wanted clarification if I could ignore that verb when people like Inspire (Kizun/Tycine) and Welfidia harass me then hide behind the verb. Thanks for your input and feel free to hop on the hate train with the likes of Inspire and Welfidia.


What part of GO AWAY and LEAVE ME ALONE don't you understand?

I'm not harassing you, I've done everything I can to stay away from you but you just keep at it by mentioning me and not moving on with your life. Get over it.

People warned you, now you have to leave them alone.

If you don't like that, stop being such a negative bully who goes from target to target looking for drama.

You should seriously consider who is harassing who before you test them and find yourself on vacation for 30 days.

Just leave people alone and do your own thing, quit picking fights and quit talking about the people who no longer exist to you.

[Gelston]

You're not being very inspirational.

[Inspire]

You're not being very inspirational.

Just trying to be as clear as possible so when he posts again about being warned by 4 different players he understands why.



He's not being harassed just because someone uses his characters name in the game. It takes a little more than that to go on the murder rampage he so clearly wants and seeks out.

[WRoss]

Just trying to be as clear as possible so when he posts again about being warned by 4 different players he understands why.



He's not being harassed just because someone uses his characters name in the game. It takes a little more than that to go on the murder rampage he so clearly wants and seeks out.

Yes, when someone attacks me, or in your case, accuses me of a crime, I generally want to interact with them. Often in combat. When they warn interact and run to the GMs, they are being pussies.

[Inspire]

When someone accuses me of a crime, I generally want to interact with them. Often in combat.



I did not at any time ACCUSE Rogane of anything.








Let's also not forget the fact that you were not in the room and you have no first hand knowledge of what actually took place.

You say someone whispered to you, that I accused you of a crime. (Lulz most likely)

Just because someone whispered to you that I accused you does not in fact make it the truth.


ONCE AGAIN: I DID NOT ACCUSE YOU OF ANYTHING



My final advice to you is to read Policy so you understand what you're being held to. You can't go around picking fights and looking for any excuse to kill someone. You're going to end up getting more WARN INTERACTION ROGANE or they'll just lock you out for causing so many problems which your history shows.


Please quit talking about me, please don't look for me in game, please just forget that I exist.

[Fallen]

Hunting pressure adjustments on skin values have been implemented for several years now. The bug we found was that hunting pressure was not being applied to players who were significantly underhunting. Obviously, that was a serious error that we have since corrected.

Coase


Hard to care about stuff that doesn't directly effect me, but there you are.

[Inspire]

Hard to care about stuff that doesn't directly effect me, but there you are.


I think this is where I say, I TOLD YOU SO, I TOLD YOU SO.

[Warriorbird]

Nah. This is where you continue to be a lolcow.

[Beguiler]

http://s-ec-sm.buzzfeed.com/static/imagebuzz/web02/2009/3/20/15/but-then-i-seriousd-again-when-i-read-all-the-15648-1237576479-4.jpg


To answer a question posted in rep, yes, that's an African Pygmy Hedgehog. Cutest lil critters evar!

[MokiePrime]

I'll see your hedgehog and raise you two pygmy marmosets!

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/39/pygmy_marmoset_babies.jpg

[Fallen]

>>>I can't post in it, even though it seems to have just opened up.

Because, you're not in charge of posting the goals. :)

It will be opened up for discussion after the goals are actually posted. I'm trying to avoid 300 posts of pre-emptive ugliness. (Yes, it should be soon. That's why we set up the folder.)

~Sirina


Never understand why they bother with a goals list.

[Gnomad]

Never understand why they bother with a goals list.

I think it's some long-running gag.

[Beguiler]

Goals will be posted 20 minutes before Monks are released. That is all....

[Androidpk]

Never understand why they bother with a goals list.

To keep people paying.

[Fallen]

>"significant" is the trouble here. I have seen something that has made feint worse from my point of view. All you are doing by repeating "no significant change" is convincing me that I am right, but you don't want to admit it.

The non-significant changes he is referring to are a bugfix for Feint to properly remove calm effects from the target and mod during the Sunfist implementation to support Sigil of Bandages. The target RT calculations are the same as they were when I initially coded the maneuver back in 2003: [Margin of Success]/6, min to 3, max to 8. If you are seeing something different than that, let me know.

Coase


I found this interesting.

[Fallen]

This feels like the new dead horse of the modern forum community.

The fact is: there was a bug. The decision was: fix the bug.

The bug wasn't even in the actual code for the imbedding process. It was part of the workshop checking routine that is commonly used across numerous systems. It needed to be fixed. There was no option of reviewing the issue and just leaving it as a "feature" of imbedding.

The bug was subtle and fairly simple, manifesting in two specific ways with imbedding. First, it drastically lowered the difficulty of nearly all imbed attempts to zero. This is something that would never have been noticed, since it's very unlikely for someone imbedding to think "Wow, I sure am succeeding an awful lot. I wonder if something's broken...." Second, it completely broke imbedding for owners of private workshops under some specific conditions. This is how the issue was brought to light.

For the curious, the bug was effectively this. If the difficulty formula looked something like this:

*A = SomeDifficultyFactor
*B = SomeOtherDifficultyFactor
*C = YetAnotherDifficultyFactor

*D = (A * B * C)

A, B, and C are some variables -- D is the difficulty percent. The call to the workshop check basically clobbered the A variable and set it to 0 unintentionally. As a result, D would always be 0, which is very obviously wrong.

Fun stuff.

--
Naos

I'm immune to fire! Now with more banhammer! You sense the bond between you and your grey cat grow stronger.
*
.

[Fallen]

Aaaaaactually, resistant armor is more difficult to enchant than equivalent armor sans resistances. I don't think the permanence of the resistance matters, either.

You can pretty much assume that any additional attributes that don't outright prevent enchanting increase the difficulty of enchanting. (The only exception I can think of would be spikes.)

--
Naos

Thought this might interest you enchanter types.

[petroglyph]

Yes, fusion stuff will be making an appearance [at the Spitfire], but it will be for premium members only.


~Galene

start saving your treasure drops

[Fallen]

Good grab. Meant to post that and forgot.

[Fallen]

>What would be great is if Finros could weigh in on whether or not he has any even distant plans to take a look at any aspects of pickpocketing.

I have no such plans. However, neither am I the rogue guru.

I agree that pickpocketing needs work, but to be perfectly frank, so do a lot of other systems, and I don't give pickpocketing high priority among them -- even for rogues, let alone gamewide. I'm willing to adapt my own priorities based on player desires, but as I recall from the most recent player-led discussion of desired rogue development, pickpocketing wasn't one of the top preferences there, either.

I asked because if anyone was going to code PP changes, it would be Finros.

[Fallen]

<< perhaps the endroll on a pour is a modifier on a hidden roll during the cast...a high endroll on a pour can have a positive effect on a cast while a low endroll on a pour can have a negative impact on a successful cast...hidden rolls FTL >>

You folks know all the factors in the Enchanting success formula, and the activation roll result from pouring a potion isn't included in that list.

--
Naos, really?


This is regarding enchanting Fusion items.

[Fallen]

>>It is obvious that monks are done and they are trying to think up the post-name titles for them.

You kid, but post-name titles are definitely one of the items we don't yet have completely checked off from the Monk to-do list. If you have any suggestions, please post them and we will certainly consider them.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


Glad to see him posting. If anyone does want me to X-post their ideas I will gladly do so. Just throw them up here. Otherwise, this is the thread: http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=33&topic=2&message=1213

[Fallen]

The confirmation time for clasping and locking items has been increased from 30 to 90 seconds.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team

----

I've added "valise" to the lockable and claspable list.

I've added "waistcoat," "shrug," "capelet," "doublet," and "overrobe" to the claspable only list.

Let me know if you think any other nouns should be included.

GameMaster Oscuro

Rogue Team
Cleric/Empath Team


.

[waywardgs]

I wish they'd make pants claspable.

[BriarFox]

I wish they'd make pants claspable.

Then all we'd see in TSC would be, "Rogane just unbuttoned his pants" ad infinitum.

[waywardgs]

Then all we'd see in TSC would be, "Rogane just unbuttoned his pants" ad infinitum.

Haha, true enough.

[WRoss]

Not likely, but I am looking for pocketed pants to pull my "dirt covered worm" from.

[waywardgs]

Rogane glances at a dirt covered worm in his hand as if it really needs a hug.

[msconstrew]

Not likely, but I am looking for pocketed pants to pull my "dirt covered worm" from.

Interestingly enough, I have some pocketed pants. Since they are made of satin and decidedly girly, I assume you will want to buy them.

[Fallen]

Summoning chambers don't provide any kind of benefit to 740.

-Strath
"I just want to bury the hatchet. So hold still for a sec..."

I asked if he thought it was reasonable to add them. Seems like it would fit.

[Gelston]

I asked if he thought it was reasonable to add them. Seems like it would fit.

They really should make them the sorc equiv of a wizard's workshop. I only say this because I own a summoning chamber. :(

[Fallen]

Thanks, Strath. Do you think it would be appropriate for them to provide one? It seems like it would be in keeping with the spell, get more sorcerers into the guild, and provide a bit more substance to Summoning Chambers themselves.

Perhaps just the same flat bonus to ranks when casting the spell inside one?

.



I'd be willing to consider it.

-Strath
"I just want to bury the hatchet. So hold still for a sec..."

[Stry]

It would certainly give more CHE's a reason to spend the large chunk of IP to get one.

I know White Haven doesn't have one and doesn't have plans to get one anytime soon. Does the OT have one?

I can see houses like Moonstone and Twilight more interested in them for RP value than anything, even as they are.

[WRoss]

Twilight has a summoning chamber.

[Gelston]

It would certainly give more CHE's a reason to spend the large chunk of IP to get one.

I know White Haven doesn't have one and doesn't have plans to get one anytime soon. Does the OT have one?

I can see houses like Moonstone and Twilight more interested in them for RP value than anything, even as they are.

I think MHO structures can also get them, although I could be wrong.

[Fallen]

Nope. Tower doesn't have one and won't get one. 25 IPs for next to nothing is a terrible investment for the members of the house.

[msconstrew]

I can see houses like Moonstone and Twilight more interested in them for RP value than anything, even as they are.

Both Twilight and the Abbey have summoning chambers in their main houses.

[LadyLaphrael]

Sylvanfair also has a summoning chamber on their grounds as the last relic of our previous Chair, one of only two active sorcerers the House had at the time (and the other one played primarily in Illistim). I'd love to have those points back.

[FNLN]

But I like chilling there for the awesome mood messaging!

[Archigeek]

Does a summoning chamber help in any way that a workshop doesn't?

[Stry]

Nope. Tower doesn't have one and won't get one. 25 IPs for next to nothing is a terrible investment for the members of the house.

I believe it's actually 10 IP which is the same cost as a workshop. But yes, still for 1/3 of what you can spend for the year. That's still a large investment for very little benefit.

Edit: Actually, it would be 16 if you were making an entirely new room. 6 for an entirely new room design + 10 to add summoning features, I believe. 10 IP if you made a current room a summoning chamber.

[Fallen]

I believe it's actually 10 IP which is the same cost as a workshop. But yes, still for 1/3 of what you can spend for the year. That's still a large investment for very little benefit.

Edit: Actually, it would be 16 if you were making an entirely new room. 6 for an entirely new room design + 10 to add summoning features, I believe. 10 IP if you made a current room a summoning chamber.

Good call. I wonder if you could make a room into a Summoning Chamber and a Workshop at the same time.

[Archigeek]

Good call. I wonder if you could make a room into a Summoning Chamber and a Workshop at the same time.

This is kind of why I was asking if there was any benefit to a summoning chamber that is beyond the benefit a sorcerer gets in a workshop.

[Fallen]

Workshops help a sorcerer's Scroll Infusion and Create Magic Item only. Summoning Chambers aid a sorcerer in summoning a demon, and refreshing the duration.

[Rimalon]

Naos:

You stated a while back that success with familiar talismans (summoning the exact same familiar) was influenced by number of Wizard ranks.

Whilst I was fixskilled to 303 Wizard ranks, I found this to be extremely accurate. I would never need more than 5 casts to summon my exact familiar, compared to 50 or so with my normal 75 Wizard ranks.

THUS:

Would it be possible to adjust the curve a bit? If we can move that 50 number to 20-25, and the 5 number to 1-3, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME, because clearly, none of us are holding our breath for familiar bonding.

--


Nope. The curve is right where I like it. Eventually, you will reduce your cast down to one (or maybe less?!) I understand not holding your breath, but who knows.

[Archigeek]

Workshops help a sorcerer's Scroll Infusion and Create Magic Item only. Summoning Chambers aid a sorcerer in summoning a demon, and refreshing the duration.

Does a summoning chamber also help with scroll infusion and CMI?

[Fallen]

Nope. People asked and it was turned down. Kind of a screw given a sorcerer's limited access to workshops in certain regions.

[Archigeek]

Nope. People asked and it was turned down. Kind of a screw given a sorcerer's limited access to workshops in certain regions.

Yeah that doesn't seem to make any sense.

[Fallen]

340 does not boost the secondary cast provided by 240(Spirit Slayer) or apply a +50 +50d roll to the spirit's cast. - SWELLMAN

This is intentional. It's the same as Spirit Strike (117).

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team


http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=25&topic=2&message=3471

[Fallen]

WHITEDB10I use a trident talisman won in a drawing on Mist harbor, is this useable or does it have to be a symbol?

As Godefroy points out, casting Symbol of the Proselyte (340) at specific items will attempt to automatically convert them. Currently, this includes:

* Any item with the deity name in the article or adjective and has the noun of "symbol".
* Any off the shelf deity symbol sold at previous years' Ebon Gate.
* Brother Weatherby's symbols
* Symbols from the new Zul Logoth omni-shrine (from the Pilgrimage of Faith event) (I think we need to establish a more concise name for this location).
* Symbols from Intercession (325, T5) (technically, they're the same symbols from the Zul Logoth shrine).

Lastly, we will schedule a few events at varying times where a merchant will be available to manually convert items. It won't be a limited service; instead we'll run the merchant as often as necessary to ensure everyone gets a chance to get their existing symbols converted to work with the spell.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Clerics/Developer%27s%20Corner%20-%20Clerics/view/284

[Fallen]

So...the IMBED verb is kind of...odd. It uses its own custom logic to determine which item you are trying to imbed, and the noun in the command is just there for extra confirmation. Note that I said noun. The IMBED verb expects only the noun of the item, no more. Using "my", "other", any adjectives, or cardinal specifiers will always cause the command to fail.

The syntax realy should read:
IMBED {spell} IN {noun} USING {activator} FOR {#} CHARGES

Also, you can only imbed one item at a time. I'm not sure if you're able to cast spell 420 are multiple items in succession, but if you can, that will likely break the item and make it no longer imbeddable. I'll test when I get home and see if this is the case.

--
Naos

420 always fucks up at some point or another when I use it.

[WRoss]

420 always fucks up at some point or another when I use it.

The problem I have is that amulets you custom order from WL default anytime you use "amulet" in imbedding. So lets say I have a cloak with 5 amulets in it and one in my hand, as long as that cloak is open, I have a 1/6 shot of the right amulet being in my hand. I haven't tried this in a long time, so it might be fixed. My solution was just to buy rods.

[Danical]

Seems like 4 charge 120 rods would be a pretty sweet market for sorcs. Also 80+ mana rods.

[Fallen]

I looked at the code and did some brief testing, and it looks like casting spell 420 at multiple items can cause issues.

If you have a green wand and a blue wand, and you cast 420 at the green wand and then cast it again at the blue wand, you will only be able to imbed the green wand and it looks like the blue wand may end up broken.

--
Naos

F that spell.

[Gizmo]

F that spell.

That spell killed me once...On FWI too.

I no longer bother with 420...

[petroglyph]

Regarding the upcoming River Rover merchant event:


Hmm. Teasers. I suppose I can support that.

Who likes enhancive recharging for silvers?

WE LIKE ENHANCIVE RECHARGING FOR SILVERS!

Go ahead, you can cheer too.

Thought some people here might be interested.

[Sam]

i am interested in this product or service



http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gif Random (official) GM... (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=1301910#post1301910) 06-17-2011 08:42 AM Silvers, not cash.

lol poor person

[Fallen]

For Clerics, the idea was to encourage them to spread out to different hunting grounds as they leveled (vs. always staying in the Landing's Town Square). Over the years, the level ranges for a particular area have grown significantly so it's reasonable that level 80 Clerics who hunt in the Bowels are resting in Town Square, which puts these two implementations at odds.

I can't tell you why Empaths did not receive the same treatment and I'm not sure we will change it, but we'll probably at least evaluate the current usefulness of the idea when we get around to the Healing Experience review.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team


Healing EXP Review? Right after Savants, I would suppose.

[Fallen]

Aha. I only just noticed the bit at the end of the original post about having to go back in and carry the familiar out. We will file this as a feature. It's absolutely intended that a familiar will not follow you into or out of the rift. Being able to carry one in by hand isn't something I had originally considered, but I don't see any reason to change that behavior.

The bit where your familiar comes to you when you die in the rift is, however, a bug. (Assuming, of course, that the familiar was not already in the Rift.)

--
Naos

Catching up with my reading of the officials. Neat trick for you wizards. Carry your familiars into the Rift to have them join you.

[Inspire]

Catching up with my reading of the officials. Neat trick for you wizards. Carry your familiars into the Rift to have them join you.

This also works in places like the Misty Chamber or the Shadowlands (Graveyard).

[Fallen]

Yes, Unpresence (204) helps in staying hidden.

GameMaster Estild
Cleric/Empath Team

Always nice to have confirmation on things like this.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Magic%20Spells%60Systems/Major%20Spiritual%20Circle/view/207

[petroglyph]

Estild on making existing deity symbols work with the new clerical spell:


Symbol Alterations and Conversions
When: Thu, September 1, 8pm – 9pm (EST)
Where: [Cleric Guild, Courtyard] outside of Wehnimer's Landing [Prime]
Description: Theologian Inoak will be visiting the Cleric's Guild outside of Wehnimer's Landing to customize holy symbols. Symbols which are not attuned to a specific deity (Clerics and Paladins may APPRAISE them to determine this), will also be converted at such a time.


I'll definitely be visiting Platinum too. Manually converting symbols isn't really a service, as you're not gaining any new benefit, but instead we're trying to ensure your old items work with the new system. To that end, I will make every effort possible to convert your existing symbols if they don't already work. I'll probably run at least two sessions in both instances in the next week, and I know some other GameMasters are planning to do the same, and if you're unable to attend none of these events, drop me an email. However, the services offered in game are to also alter your existing symbol, if you wish to change the description. Any conversions done outside of that will be merely to convert the symbol.

Here are some guidelines on what will be allowed for holy symbols:

* A symbol will only be set to a deity which clearly matches its description. E.g. "a bloodstone impaled heart symbol" would never be set to Lorminstra, when that's clearly a symbol of Mularos. If we have to guess which deity the symbol is dedicated to, we won't convert it. Symbols dedicated to "other" are the exception.
* Only items which can be worn can be holy symbols. No weapons, armors, or shields (even though some of those are wearable).
* Any item can be a holy symbol regardless of its properties (scripted, etc). A good and acceptable use of this is if there is a Lorminstra cleric who has altered their FWI transporter into a key ring. Even though the item has other uses, it's still a symbol of Lorminstra and can be converted (thus will also work with Symbol of the Proselyte (340)).

[petroglyph]

From the Premium Homes board:



> Something I'd like to see as a possible [premium] home addition is working dart boards.

Done! I'll raffle a few off at EG.
~V

[Gibreficul]

Originally Posted by Varulv
> Something I'd like to see as a possible [premium] home addition is working dart boards.

Done! I'll raffle a few off at EG.
~V



Now THOSE would be awesome.

[BriarFox]

I don't know what the original statement was, but your summary is pretty much spot-on with regard to maneuver defense. Unfortunately, you've chosen the wrong method to test that. Ewave is a pretty old spell and uses its own calculations to determine the results. Those calculations take 618 into account, but not 1606 (or any other spell for that matter). ~GM Finros

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paladins/Developer%27s%20Corner%20-%20Paladins/view/152

Useful to know.

[Kronius]

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paladins/Developer%27s%20Corner%20-%20Paladins/view/152

Useful to know.

Nice, at least they're responding. I'm still waiting on GM clarification on why demons don't enter warcamps.

[Drunken Durfin]

Nice, at least they're responding. I'm still waiting on GM clarification on why demons don't enter warcamps.

They are afraid of Grimswarm.

[thefarmer]

Re: Might be premature, but I'm Calling it... on 03/14/2012 03:15 AM EDT
157
Reply
Upon further inspection, it seems that 410 does use the standard maneuver roll. The mechanics were updated a while back but the old calculations were left behind, and I didn't read the code carefully enough to realize that they were no longer used.

I apologize for my hasty (and incorrect) answer; it will be another lesson for me to doublecheck my answers when attempting to address a question. That said, I've looked into the matter in more detail, and here's the real answer.

Spells generally don't use the "standard maneuver roll," which is mostly for critters and environmental hazards. Ewave is the rare exception in that regard, and nearly every other spell does something different. The older the spell, the less likely it is that 1606 is taken into account. I will make sure to bring this up with other team members; if a spell is meant to provide maneuver defense, it should probably do so consistently.

That said, both 618 and 1606 are roughly equivalent in the standard maneuver roll, which is used much more broadly. Both spells provide equal defense to non-native casters, and the self-cast bonus in both cases is based on the number of known spells in the professional circle. In practice, rangers will probably have more spells than the equivalent paladin and thus earn the greater bonus, but an equal number of spells will provide an equal bonus.

>Finros, is ewave's aged status why 435 (Major E-Wave) utterly and completely ignores crit padding in armor? Was it just not coded to consider it?

This isn't really the correct location if you intend to pursue the topic further, but 435 does not ignore crit padding. It (intentionally) has an extremely high variability in the base crit rank based on how badly you fail the maneuver roll, which is easy to misinterpret as ignoring crit padding. Coincidentally, just such a result happened to me when I tested it to verify: I got the same result (a rank 3 wound) while wearing unpadded armor and while wearing wondrously padded armor, because I very badly failed the maneuver roll in the second case and only moderately failed it in the first.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paladins/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Paladins/view/157

[thefarmer]

I got the same result (a rank 3 wound) while wearing unpadded armor and while wearing wondrously padded armor, because I very badly failed the maneuver roll in the second case and only moderately failed it in the first.

LOLNeimanz

[Sam]

lolneimanz

[Kronius]

.

LOLNeimanz


lolneimanz


oops!

[audioserf]

Wow. lmao

[Fallen]

I'll take failing 435 "Very Badly" and only getting a rank 3.

[Drew]

I'm just happy to know it considers it at all. And also lol neimanz.

[neimanz1]

Lol neimanz

[Helsfeld]

Lol neimanz

lolneimanz

[Helsfeld]

When my ranger with 103 spells could take hits like almost cap warrior in plate I can't really complain.

A halfling marauder leaps out of his hiding place!
A halfling marauder swings a broadsword at Ardwen!
AS: +434 vs DS: +330 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +78 = +200
... and hits for 11 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on Ardwen's chest!
>incant 616
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>
A low chirping sound comes from within an incised rolaren cricket box.
>
An elven mugger leaps out of his hiding place!
An elven mugger swings a broadsword at you!
AS: +550 vs DS: +404 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +11 = +191
... and hits for 17 points of damage!
Slashing strike near forehead nicks an eyebrow!
My, that stings!

[Gizmo]

Per Finros on 3/28: We do not yet have a firm date for when monks (and thus, the UCS) will be released into the live games, and nor do I have any information on potential additional FIXSKILLS opportunities at this time. I'll make sure to find out before the annual FIXSKILLS.

[droit]

>>Does predator's eye work with hurling? IE: do I get the bonus if I hurl a dagger rather than stab with it?

Yes. It also works while hidden or in the open. It does not work with any Ranged weapons.

>>Will this push a rogues chance of hitting the aim location up to 100% or will it hit the same threshold that is placed on training? And am I misremembering or do a rogues chances to hit where they aiming diminish against targets that are higher in level?

For some body locations, it's possible to hit them with a max of 95% chance. The aiming formula works like this: First, there's a roll to check for a fumble with a 5% chance (where you either can't find an opening, or you just hit a random area), then it takes skills and stats into account and caps success at 95% if over it, then it applies a location penalty based on body location and whether the target was sitting, standing or prone. The Predator's Eye bonus occurs at the same computational moment as the body location penalty. The Predator's Eye bonus will always be useful (not applying to an already capped value) for head, neck and eye shots. In some circumstances, aiming at other locations would already receive a 95% chance of hitting (100% minus that initial fumble roll).

GameMaster Oscuro

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Rogues/Developer's%20Corner%20-%20Rogues/view/348

[droit]

LOG is the CS stat for MnM, but DIS is the TD stat. DIS is the TD stat for all three of the MnM, MjM and Savant circles. The CS stat for MjM is the average of LOG and INF, while the CS stat for Savant is the average of LOG and DIS.

GameMaster Oscuro

[Makkah]

Wasn't all of this released in a post like 2 years ago?

[rolfard]

RATHBONER
The main disadvantage to holding some weapon or other is the loss of the experience bonus you get from empty hands. You have to get to a pretty high level before empty hands is mechanically competitive. (Just where, I don't know because I haven't figured out the exact way DF factors into crit rank yet).


That was an oversight that will be remedied soon.

GameMaster Estild

Is he talking about the experience factor of the DF factor??

[Allereli]

re Call Lightning

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Magic%20Spells%60Systems/Minor%20Spiritual%20Circle/view/236

It takes 4 rounds for the cloud to form. Each round is 10 seconds, with every 10 ranks of Spiritual Lore - Summoning removing 1 second per round. I've updated the documentation.

GameMaster Estild

[Fallen]

Our weapon's feeder is separated into 4 groups. Two handed, one handed, ranged, and runestaff. A lance would fall into our two handed group, so that makes sense. And since a shambler is a level 17 creature, a golvern weapon is fine for that level range.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions

Good to know

[Fallen]

The Landing verbs were actually finished up by GM Auchand and thrown into QC last week. They are likely to make a summer debut as part of a roll out I am striving for. Huzzah!

-GM Kenstrom-
Wehnimer's Landing Guru
Giantmen Guru


Landing Dev (of sorts).

[Allereli]

>>Is there an official list somewhere as to what defines 'extraplanar'? I'm particularly interested in rift/scatter.

Elementals, ki-lins, Vvrael, Ithzir, everything on Plane 4, 5, and the Scatter in the Rift, raving lunatics, and n'ecare.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Returning%20to%20Coraesine%20Field/view/1550

Well, I stand corrected. ExtraPlanar does work against demons. So yeah. I was wrong. Add the three demon archetypes back on there to my list. As well as that one demon that's birthed from vathors that starts with an N that i can't remember the name of.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Returning%20to%20Coraesine%20Field/view/1555

[Archigeek]

Excellent information. Good to know.

[Allereli]

Excellent information. Good to know.

I'm updating krakii with the info, the process of which has been interrupted by actual work

[Gelston]

Well, I stand corrected. ExtraPlanar does work against demons. So yeah. I was wrong. Add the three demon archetypes back on there to my list. As well as that one demon that's birthed from vathors that starts with an N that i can't remember the name of.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions

[Fallen]

Well, I stand corrected. ExtraPlanar does work against demons. So yeah. I was wrong. Add the three demon archetypes back on there to my list. As well as that one demon that's birthed from vathors that starts with an N that i can't remember the name of.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions

.


Well, I stand corrected. ExtraPlanar does work against demons. So yeah. I was wrong. Add the three demon archetypes back on there to my list. As well as that one demon that's birthed from vathors that starts with an N that i can't remember the name of.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions
http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Quests%60Sagas%60Events/Returning%20to%20Coraesine%20Field/view/1555

[Drew]

SICK BURN.

[Gelston]

.

Well, I stand corrected. ExtraPlanar does work against demons. So yeah. I was wrong. Add the three demon archetypes back on there to my list. As well as that one demon that's birthed from vathors that starts with an N that i can't remember the name of.


~Wyrom, SGM
Quests
Platinum
Promotions

[Latrinsorm]

How someone could not know demons counted as extraplanar is the real outrage here.

[Fallen]

>>So weapons with the extraplanar bane could hit'em without being 8x, ala the undead bane simulating permabless?


No. Undead bane is a special situation. ExtraPlanar weapons won't hit undead unless blessed, nor demons unless it's 8x. The creature bane ability just offers the bane effect to the weapon should you be attacking one of those types of creatures.

.

[Allereli]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Extraplanar_beings_(saved_post)

let me know if I missed any

edit: if anyone has any good abyran'ra content, I started a page for it. I have some logs of the ones I summoned, but I honestly don't want to stand in front of them for very long.

[Allereli]

I placed an eonake javelin in the weapon treasure feeder! It's unscripted, so it will be perfect fodder for RtCF, should it be found in time. It is 5x with fire flares, but is also the bane of undead and will offer plasma flares against the foul undeath! Good luck!

~Wyrom


.

[Fallen]

620 works based on the AsG of your armor, not its material.

.

[Drew]

620 works based on the AsG of your armor, not its material.


This has always been the same.

[Mumblz]

pretty sure that 620 won't work on brigandine that inspects as a made of metal instead of leather.

[Drew]

pretty sure that 620 won't work on brigandine that inspects as a made of metal instead of leather.

Never stopped me before.

[thefarmer]

Never stopped me before.

^

[Fallen]

This has always been the same.

Correct. As seen here and elsewhere, however, the ambiguity persists. It is also troubling because for armor accessories, the material does matter.

[Donquix]

Correct. As seen here and elsewhere, however, the ambiguity persists. It is also troubling because for armor accessories, the material does matter.

I'm assuming that's because accessories have no armor class. So in the code they have to check the material , but for torso they just check armor class and call it a day.