More Obamacare fuckups

[Warriorbird]

How about neither government or business, and we just rely on local practices?

So we have a post apocalyptic zombie scenario with legions of the untreated? I'm not so sure that's the Detroit cleanup that you want.

Even in schools, where I can see your point slightly more, only Nebraska functions without federal money. I can't imagine how they'd do without state level funds.

[Thondalar]

It seems like a pretty simple question to answer. One system has price controls, one doesn't, how is the one with price controls more of a free market? You can continue to parrot that open competition is encouraged, but if you refuse to address specific criticisms the words are hollow.

Seriously? Ok, fine. I'll direct you to your own word, system..."a group or combination of interrelated, interdependent, or interacting elements forming a collective entity"...price controls certainly go against what would be normally accepted as a "free market" economy, but this is only one small part of the full system. This is why I suggested you look further into it before commenting...it's actually a very small part of the system, and only used in certain situations. I firmly believe that the health care situation in Singapore succeeds despite these controls, not because of them...they aren't a big enough part of the whole picture to matter that much. I can't say it surprises me that you would fixate on this one small part while ignoring the rest of the system though, that's pretty much your MO...

...out of the various "best health care in the world" lists Singapore is the only that even comes close to a free market, as the others are outright socialist.

Oh, well, there you go.

I recall you were perfectly happy to deride price controls when it came to wages, and I'm sure you would be perfectly happy to deride price ceilings if anybody set them for any reason.

fixed.

[Thondalar]

They actually use their antitrust laws.

So, like with most liberal positions, it seems to me the problem is we're just not using the laws already in place. I'm sure more laws will fix that, though, right?

Libertarian ideas or NOTHING.

I go against what is normally accepted as the Libertarian platform quite a bit...most notably in foreign policy.

[Warriorbird]

So, like with most liberal positions, it seems to me the problem is we're just not using the laws already in place. I'm sure more laws will fix that, though, right?

More companies and more lobbyists certainly won't fix that. They're part of what created it to begin with.

[Thondalar]

All the self gratifying Republican notions don't mean that companies don't see when they hold the whip hand. Sure, it might look like things were better off at first but the power of a company that holds the majority of national insurance policies would be intense. This "competion means reduced prices" notion doesn't always play out in the real world.

It actually does, until the government gets involved.

Before you bring up robber barons and other bullshit that happened 100 years ago, give me an example in the modern world. We're not uneducated hillbillies with one telegraph for the town. As a society we're more intelligent, and a LOT more connected. This would be the perfect environment for a truly free market to show what it could do for us, but it's now so bogged down with decades of government meddling it would be nearly impossible for us to find out.

I think your anger is misguided...it's not the big corporations you should be railing against, but the banks. They caused the depression, and the latest recession...of course, the argument could be made that we, ourselves caused it by being too dependent on credit...but pfft. Why should we take responsibilities for our own actions, it's much easier to blame a nameless "evildoer".

[Warriorbird]

It actually does, until the government gets involved.

Before you bring up robber barons and other bullshit that happened 100 years ago, give me an example in the modern world. We're not uneducated hillbillies with one telegraph for the town. As a society we're more intelligent, and a LOT more connected. This would be the perfect environment for a truly free market to show what it could do for us, but it's now so bogged down with decades of government meddling it would be nearly impossible for us to find out.

I think your anger is misguided...it's not the big corporations you should be railing against, but the banks. They caused the depression, and the latest recession...of course, the argument could be made that we, ourselves caused it by being too dependent on credit...but pfft. Why should we take responsibilities for our own actions, it's much easier to blame a nameless "evildoer".

There are countless examples of corporate malfeasance in the modern world. Enron, Worldcom, Tyco (who I worked for) the list goes on.

When we privatized AT&T the prices didn't go down at all. There was a perception of it at the start but it ended up being a tremendous cost increase over time.

Here's a more recent example of liquor prices going up after privatization in Washington.

http://www.kgw.com/news/After-privat...261440621.html

It's cool how you're doing the blame the victim bit with banks. I'm sure you want them deregulated too, given your ridiculous intro sentence. Because that would make them better! Really!

[Parkbandit]

Sometimes, just sometimes, maybe they're slightly more trustworthy than business. Just because you think companies are naturally benevolent doesn't mean they are. You have a FEW chances to sway government.

lolwut?

Government is more trustworthy than business?

Too funny.

[Warriorbird]

lolwut?

Government is more trustworthy than business?

Too funny.

It's the basic proposition. I understand that you would miraculously trust everything more if it was privatized. I'm not so sure it'd be the idyllic utopia you envision. I think that you think it would be a utopia reveals the basic philosophy to be as naive as the people who believed in Communism.

[Thondalar]

There are countless examples in the modern world. Enron, Worldcom, Tyco (who I worked for) the list goes on.

I'll blame the victim here, too, to a degree. As I've said countless times, there is no perfect system. We have to go with the most perfect. We could argue about what happened with Enron, and Worldcom, and Tyco, and others for a while, but it would be pointless. As I've stated before, people will be people. Some people are selfish and greedy...the system won't change that. The only difference between a Capitalist society and a Communist society is that in a Capitalist society, the rich people are the business owners, and in a Communist society the rich people are the Ruling Elite. In a Capitalist society, the rich business owners make everyone else more wealthy because it contributes to their own wealth...in a Communist society, the Ruling Elite just rape the common people for everything they have and keep it for themselves. I know which side of that fence I'm on. If the employees and shareholders of these companies did their due diligence, we probably could have avoided these scenarios.

History has proven, time and again, that personal responsibility is the only way to make things work. Any time you give over that responsibility, whether it's to a corporation or a government, you're setting yourself up for failure.

It's cool how you're doing the blame the victim bit with banks.

Well, yeah. I'm a big believer in personal responsibility...there is ample evidence that the great depression was caused by everyone blowing up their credit, and then the bank scare of 1930 taking all the backing out of that credit...the history is there for the reading. Here's a good study about it by that bastion of Conservative Thought that is UC-Berkeley:

http://www.bis.org/publ/work137.pdf

I'm sure you want them deregulated too, given your ridiculous intro sentence. Because that would make them better! Really!

Well, yes. If we hadn't bailed out the banks, what would have happened? Probably another depression, since the same factors were in place that caused the first one. I'm all for destructive creationism. By softening the blow of failure, we almost certainly insure future failure. The lessons learned from the first depression were lost on the common man three generations later...that's not surprising. We do a terrible job of educating our young.

[Vorpos]

It's the basic proposition. I understand that you would miraculously trust everything more if it was privatized. I'm not so sure it'd be the idyllic utopia you envision. I think that you think it would be a utopia reveals the basic philosophy to be as naive as the people who believed in Communism.

Or maybe he just doesn't worship at the altar of government.