15 dollar an hour minimum wage in Seattle

[leifastagsweed]

Again, you all miss the point entirely. The City of Seattle is not socialist country. It's just overfuckingpriced capitalism at it's finest. The hipsters didn't make it overpriced, they are just paying the exorbitant rents. (see San Francisco...see New York City...see Los Angeles (http://www.scpr.org/news/2014/10/07/47223/minimum-wage-proposal-seeks-to-put-los-angeles-on/)....)

Oh right. Talk to the landlords. Or, how about, that one guy...

https://38.media.tumblr.com/42d1abbc80f939047143d3b7e5a804c7/tumblr_mu7gvzR0dE1skv5nro5_500.gif

[Warriorbird]

"Assistance" can mean free too. But you apparently never even heard of this in America so why you acting like an expert all of a sudden?



They give out 12k a year to people with children in Denmark?

Well then Denmark wins. Let them have all of their taxes.



That's fine. While we're on the subject of part time you do realize the vast majority of fast food workers in Denmark are part time too, right?

$8400 is the typical. The high end, like you were describing here, is $12000. It's what my girlfriend's sister who works at a pizza place gets for her son.

Part time workers in Denmark have to have the same benefits as full time. It's kinda crazy, but it's Denmark. Because of the union rules about workers ages and minimum raises Denmark still comes out ahead, though not as ahead as I initially thought. It's more along the lines of your $7k a year after everything than the huge differences the gross income figures paint though.

[leifastagsweed]

$8400 is the typical. The high end, like you were describing here, is $12000. It's what my girlfriend's sister who works at a pizza place gets for her son.

Part time workers in Denmark have to have the same benefits as full time. It's kinda crazy, but it's Denmark. Because of the union rules about workers ages and minimum raises Denmark still comes out ahead, though not as ahead as I initially thought. It's more along the lines of your $7k a year after everything than the huge differences the gross income figures paint though.

I was at a Microsoft conference in Denmark about 5 years ago and spent quite a bit of time discussing lifestyle and cost of living with several of the employees there. They were all hot to get to the US because of the taxation. The senior most project manager was the only one that owned actually owned a car. He and his wife who worked also were only able to afford it because they lived outside of Copenhagen in a less expensive town. He took the train an extra hour in the morning to work and he only drove his car on weekends.

Trade-offs.

[Tgo01]

$8400 is the typical. The high end, like you were describing here, is $12000. It's what my girlfriend's sister who works at a pizza place gets for her son.

I'm curious; is that all they get? Like, here's 12k, enjoy?

I ask because Earned Income Tax Credit can be upwards of 8k but there is also food stamps which could be 100-200+ dollars per month per child as well. Not to mention all sorts of state/federal/local programs that help with rent, electricity, heat and even transportation costs.


Part time workers in Denmark have to have the same benefits as full time.

Yes but working part time means they aren't working 40 hours a week which means the 40k something figure I quoted earlier is most likely way off as well.


It's more along the lines of your $7k a year after everything than the huge differences the gross income figures paint though.

Considering the high cost of living in Denmark I think the difference is pretty negligible.

[Warriorbird]

I was at a Microsoft conference in Denmark about 5 years ago and spent quite a bit of time discussing lifestyle and cost of living with several of the employees there. They were all hot to get to the US because of the taxation. One of the senior most project managers was the only one that owned actually owned a car. They were only able to afford it because they lived outside of Copenhagen in a less expensive town. He took the train an extra hour in the morning to work and he only drove his car on weekends.

Trade-offs.

Yeah. Far better to be upper middle class/wealthy in America. Car taxes are positively insane in Denmark, though electric vehicles of all sorts are exempt. My girlfriend's Mom owns a car though and she's just a day care teacher.

I'd probably buy heavily used if I lived in Denmark or drive something made by http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/

[Warriorbird]

I'm curious; is that all they get? Like, here's 12k, enjoy?

I ask because Earned Income Tax Credit can be upwards of 8k but there is also food stamps which could be 100-200+ dollars per month per child as well. Not to mention all sorts of state/federal/local programs that help with rent, electricity, heat and even transportation costs.



Yes but working part time means they aren't working 40 hours a week which means the 40k something figure I quoted earlier is most likely way off as well.



Considering the high cost of living in Denmark I think the difference is pretty negligible.

They get the money each month for the kid. They can also get food stamps, rent, utilities, and transportation just like the US if they're in government determined need.

As far as the your part time notion think about the perception of union jobs in America. These are unionized McDonalds workers with mandatory pay raises.

The higher cost of living (though not as high as that figure were to suggest) is offset by not paying state income taxes or sales taxes in the way we do. Unless, of course, you want to buy a car or have a big carbon footprint. The average middle class Dane doesn't have thousands in student loan debt too.

[Tgo01]

The higher cost of living (though not as high as that figure were to suggest) is offset by not paying state income taxes or sales taxes in the way we do. Unless, of course, you want to buy a car or have a big carbon footprint. The average middle class Dane doesn't have thousands in student loan debt too.

You say all of this yet Danish families have among the highest debt to disposal income in the entire world. (http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2013-en/03/03/02/index.html?itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2013-28-en)

[Warriorbird]

You say all of this yet Danish families have among the highest debt to disposal income in the entire world. (http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/factbook-2013-en/03/03/02/index.html?itemId=/content/chapter/factbook-2013-28-en)

Their car and housing situations are stupidly awful.

Added note:

I jokingly told my girlfriend I wanted to move to Denmark, given what they pay fast food workers. She freaked out and compared how she'd be taxed for her IBM earnings in Denmark.

[Tgo01]

Their car and housing situations are stupidly awful.

That's great and all but when you say they don't have a lot of student loan debt then acknowledge they have much higher debt in other areas, what exactly are you trying to prove?

[Warriorbird]

That's great and all but when you say they don't have a lot of student loan debt then acknowledge they have much higher debt in other areas, what exactly are you trying to prove?

Not having so much student loan debt is nice. Our home ownership and car ownership policies are superior to Denmark's.

To sum up: I believe fast food workers have it a bit better in Denmark. I still won't move there. Having a higher salary there is much worse and I'm involved with somebody who does.

[Parkbandit]

To sum up: I believe fast food workers have it a bit better in Denmark. I still won't move there. Having a higher salary there is much worse and I'm involved with somebody who does.

Do you even read the stupidity you post or does it just flow out of you like diarrhea?

[Atlanteax]

Do you even read the stupidity you post or does it just flow out of you like diarrhea?

WB and Back are related, remember?

[Warriorbird]

Do you even read the stupidity you post or does it just flow out of you like diarrhea?

Even the conservative I was discussing with believed that they were somewhat better off. The rest of my post dealt with things you would presumably agree with. Therefore I'm forced to believe that this post just consisted of your spasmodic uncontrolled Internet focused hate.

The constant stream of bile you post must make you a nicer person in public. I'm glad. It's especially telling when you don't even post specifically.

[Parkbandit]

Even the conservative I was discussing with believed that they were somewhat better off. The rest of my post dealt with things you would presumably agree with. Therefore I'm forced to believe that this post just consisted of your spasmodic uncontrolled Internet focused hate.

The constant stream of bile you post must make you a nicer person in public. I'm glad. It's especially telling when you don't even post specifically.

My apologies for hurting your feelings... I have a very low threshold for stupidity.

It's a character flaw. :(

It just astonishes me that there are actually teachers out there like you that teach children more than just finger painting or gym. I get the whole "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." idiom.. but it's a little depressing that students are the ones that are punished.

[Warriorbird]

My apologies for hurting your feelings... I have a very low threshold for stupidity.

It's a character flaw. :(

It just astonishes me that there are actually teachers out there like you that teach children more than just finger painting or gym. I get the whole "Those who can, do; those who can't, teach." idiom.. but it's a little depressing that students are the ones that are punished.

I'm amused that you'd think I was upset. Off topic bile. Generalized insults. I like to think about how much good this does for your wife and children.

[Tgo01]

Even the conservative I was discussing with believed that they were somewhat better off.

You talking about me? I said I thought they were about the same :/

[Warriorbird]

You talking about me? I said I thought they were about the same :/

Mmm, fair enough. You also angled for a place with no state taxes/no sales taxes though.

[Wrathbringer]

Mmm, fair enough. You also angled for a place with no state taxes/no sales taxes though.

Like the internet. Gotta love it.

[Latrinsorm]

Why don't we just force people t o pay a minimum of 100$ an hour then, there would be zero poverty, and EVERYONE would have money?

Oh yeah.. cause it don't work.

The first thing that will happen if fast food workers are paid 15 an hour... 30-40% of the jobs will vanish.

Touch screens will replace cashiers for the most part. They will put in automated burger flippers. The drive thru will be either a voice prompt system or touch screen.

Oh so many of those wonderful people you so desperately want to help.. will be unemployed. GG.If you were to learn that minimum wage increases have on average resulted in no change in unemployment in the past, would you reconsider your position?

[Warriorbird]

Like the internet. Gotta love it.

It's true. Your socialization must be more difficult offline with the looming felony charges.

[Jarvan]

If you were to learn that minimum wage increases have on average resulted in no change in unemployment in the past, would you reconsider your position?

You mean increases of less then a few dollars? Or increases of 7+ dollars?

Doubling people's salary will almost always result in layoffs somewhere in that company.

Also, have you ever looked at the profit % a franchise McDonald's makes? Where exactly do you think they will cut the 30% increase in labor? They can't just eat it, the places would make almost no profit. Though SOME people on these boards would be perfectly fine with that.

[Vorpos]

Do you even read the stupidity you post or does it just flow out of you like diarrhea?

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

[Vorpos]

WB and Back are related, remember?

They both poll conservatives from the basement of Back's grandma's house.

[waywardgs]

If you were to learn that minimum wage increases have on average resulted in no change in unemployment in the past, would you reconsider your position?




No.


In the interest of brevity...

[Latrinsorm]

You mean increases of less then a few dollars? Or increases of 7+ dollars?The proposal in the OP spreads the increase out over between three and seven years depending, so per-year it would be no more than $2.58 nominal which will be a little less real.
Doubling people's salary will almost always result in layoffs somewhere in that company.Ah, but what if it wasn't a single company but every company? Obviously a company that has to pay double salary while everyone else pays regular is at a huge relative disadvantage, but everyone paying the same eliminates that.
Also, have you ever looked at the profit % a franchise McDonald's makes? Where exactly do you think they will cut the 30% increase in labor? They can't just eat it, the places would make almost no profit. Though SOME people on these boards would be perfectly fine with that.I think they'll lower real wages for the other (non minimum wage) workers. The easiest way to do this is not give raises and let inflation do your dirty work, but they can probably get some good PR by giving nominal pay cuts to people on the high end too.

[Jarvan]

The proposal in the OP spreads the increase out over between three and seven years depending, so per-year it would be no more than $2.58 nominal which will be a little less real.

And this makes a difference in what way? Please.. show me where a rise in labor costs did not result in a cutting of said costs. Show me one sector where a company went.. oh shit, we have to pay XXXX more per year in labor.. I know.. lets hire MORE people. No.. sorry.. doesn't happen. Technology happens. It's cheaper to put in an automated kiosk which costs x upfront then it does to pay a person X amount more per year. Why don't places like McDonalds have them now? They do, in countries where labor costs are to high.


Ah, but what if it wasn't a single company but every company? Obviously a company that has to pay double salary while everyone else pays regular is at a huge relative disadvantage, but everyone paying the same eliminates that.

Sure, if every company's lowest wage was suddenly 15 an hour, or hell, over the course of 7 years became 15 an hour, there would be none at a disadvantage.. except in Seattle's case where companies outside the city would have a HUGE advantage. LOL. Who wants to be that any "service" based company that COULD move out of the city, will? Hotels will fire maids and such, and just hire a company that is based outside of Seattle's city limits.

As for fast food workers, if they CAN'T reduce labor costs, which they will, they will raise prices. There is no other option. Almost no company in this country can afford to take a hit to profits like this would be, specially places like fast food. I mean.. It will have almost no impact on Google or Apple. Impact on teachers, next to nothing. (well, this is assuming that you believe anyone making MORE then 15 an hour will see a zero raise, which also almost never happens) Places where 95% of it's workers will see a significant raise? Prices MUST go up, or labor MUST be cut.


I think they'll lower real wages for the other (non minimum wage) workers. The easiest way to do this is not give raises and let inflation do your dirty work, but they can probably get some good PR by giving nominal pay cuts to people on the high end too.

They will not cut salaries for management. If they cut the salary of the store manager at McDonalds.. or not even give them a raise, it wouldn't be worth it to BE the store manager. They are salaried usually, work shit hours, put up with all the crap, and you want to pay them less while paying the people that can't read or understand basic English/Math MORE? As of right now, most Assistant managers at places like that make around the 15$ an hour mark. I would figure you would think that an ASSISTANT manager would get paid more then a regular worker. So they would get a raise as well. But.. maybe in your mind they shouldn't who knows.

In conclusion..
So what you are saying is, not only would we NOT see a rise in prices, but we would also NOT see any people laid off as well?

[Latrinsorm]

And this makes a difference in what way?Because from 1977 to 1981 the min wage increased by 46%, but because it was spread out over several years there was no problem with unemployment. Jan 77: 7.5%. Jan 81: 7.5%.
Please.. show me where a rise in labor costs did not result in a cutting of said costs. Show me one sector where a company went.. oh shit, we have to pay XXXX more per year in labor.. I know.. lets hire MORE people. No.. sorry.. doesn't happen. Technology happens. It's cheaper to put in an automated kiosk which costs x upfront then it does to pay a person X amount more per year. Why don't places like McDonalds have them now? They do, in countries where labor costs are to high.I gave you a scenario where overall labor costs didn't rise without using compu-robots.
Sure, if every company's lowest wage was suddenly 15 an hour, or hell, over the course of 7 years became 15 an hour, there would be none at a disadvantage.. except in Seattle's case where companies outside the city would have a HUGE advantage. LOL. Who wants to be that any "service" based company that COULD move out of the city, will? Hotels will fire maids and such, and just hire a company that is based outside of Seattle's city limits.I don't know how that scenario works, but I would guess that people working in the polity are subject to that polity's laws. If you hire a security guard from Newark he's not allowed to break NYC's gun laws, I would guess the same applies here.
As for fast food workers, if they CAN'T reduce labor costs, which they will, they will raise prices. There is no other option. Almost no company in this country can afford to take a hit to profits like this would be, specially places like fast food. I mean.. It will have almost no impact on Google or Apple. Impact on teachers, next to nothing. (well, this is assuming that you believe anyone making MORE then 15 an hour will see a zero raise, which also almost never happens) Places where 95% of it's workers will see a significant raise? Prices MUST go up, or labor MUST be cut.Inflation actually goes down slightly in years where minimum wage increases. It's possible that fast food prices go up and every other price happens to go down, but that beggars credulity. I'm glad you capitalized what you did, though. You keep telling me what must happen, I'm telling you what actually has. If reality doesn't agree with your theories, perhaps it's time to change your theories, no?
They will not cut salaries for management. If they cut the salary of the store manager at McDonalds.. or not even give them a raise, it wouldn't be worth it to BE the store manager. They are salaried usually, work shit hours, put up with all the crap, and you want to pay them less while paying the people that can't read or understand basic English/Math MORE? As of right now, most Assistant managers at places like that make around the 15$ an hour mark. I would figure you would think that an ASSISTANT manager would get paid more then a regular worker. So they would get a raise as well. But.. maybe in your mind they shouldn't who knows.You didn't ask me what they SHOULD do, you asked me what they WILL do. The plan I describe produces results that are consistent with history. An assistant manager probably deserves to get paid more, but businesses already don't give their workers what they deserve in many cases. Why should this be any different?
So what you are saying is, not only would we NOT see a rise in prices, but we would also NOT see any people laid off as well?I'm saying we haven't before, so there's no reason to believe we will now.

[Laviticas]

Latrin, I'm kind of surprised you used the late 70's early 80's as an example of a good economy. The economy was fucked, we went from a single income being able to support a family to both parents having to work full time to make ends meet. ::boggle::

[Latrinsorm]

Latrin, I'm kind of surprised you used the late 70's early 80's as an example of a good economy. The economy was fucked, we went from a single income being able to support a family to both parents having to work full time to make ends meet. ::boggle::If I may alleviate your surprise, that is in no way what I said. :D What I said was that unemployment in January 1977 was the same as unemployment in January 1981 even though minimum wage changed dramatically, and that's true. It was only when we STOPPED increasing minimum wage that unemployment exploded. You can say that's impossible, but it happened.

Now, inflation went up quite a bit in 1980, but there are other min wage data points where it didn't. When you look at all the data, as I am always fond of doing, there is no evidence of a link between minimum wage increases and (1) inflation, (2) unemployment, or (3) average real wages.

[Jarvan]

If I may alleviate your surprise, that is in no way what I said. :D What I said was that unemployment in January 1977 was the same as unemployment in January 1981 even though minimum wage changed dramatically, and that's true. It was only when we STOPPED increasing minimum wage that unemployment exploded. You can say that's impossible, but it happened.

Now, inflation went up quite a bit in 1980, but there are other min wage data points where it didn't. When you look at all the data, as I am always fond of doing, there is no evidence of a link between minimum wage increases and (1) inflation, (2) unemployment, or (3) average real wages.

It is interesting that you picked years where robotic development and computers were not really in place to replace workers as they are now.

Which seems more likely. A fast food chain will pay a kid 15 an hour to push a button and TRY to make change, or they will add a touch screen that doesn't make mistakes (the customer does). It would cost less to put in a touch screen system for customers, then pay 1 employee to do the work of all of them for a year. Unless of course you think they WOULDN'T do this because it would be WRONG.

BTW.. how are the employment figures for the car sector?

Also.. the time period you are referring to was 1977-1981, right?

2.30 an hour to 3.35 an hour? 45.6% increase.

This is slightly different then a 100%+ increase some want. (and Seattle is doing).

Also, once again, the technology wasn't there. But lets look as some more things.

It's interesting that you stopped looking at unemployment in 1981. Since it spiked to 10.8% in 1982. I guess we could cherry pick any numbers we like though. Also, there was a recession going on during this time. (Much like now really in a way) Unemployment was already high. But still... companies Did. Not. Have. The. Technology. they do now to remove some of the labor from their costs. Companies in the 80's eliminated as many people as they could to decrease labor costs. If labor would have been 2.30 in the mid 80's we may not have seen as many people "laid off".

Luckily, it's currently impossible to "outsource" burger flipping to China or India. It's not impossible to give the job to a machine.
http://gizmodo.com/5962656/this-robo-griller-can-flip-360-burgers-an-hour

Increased labor costs prompt companies to look for ways to reduce labor costs. That is a simple fact. In the past, a company may have been able to absorb the increase in labor costs, but with a worldwide economy now, it's next to impossible to double labor costs (or nearly so) and still compete with other companies, or stay profitable.

[Jeril]

Minimum wage in WA state is already at 9.32 an hour and looking to hit 10 at the beginning of next year. So saying 100+% increase is wrong, Latrin's 46% isn't that far off of the 50% increase that Seattle will see. The min wage is also likely to keep rising so the difference will lessen.

[Jarvan]

Minimum wage in WA state is already at 9.32 an hour and looking to hit 10 at the beginning of next year. So saying 100+% increase is wrong, Latrin's 46% isn't that far off of the 50% increase that Seattle will see. The min wage is also likely to keep rising so the difference will lessen.

Not everything is about Seattle. I hope it works for them, I have a feeling it won't tho.

[Latrinsorm]

It is interesting that you picked years where robotic development and computers were not really in place to replace workers as they are now.I picked those years as an example, the regression I've performed includes all years. How many years did you include in yours? :)
Which seems more likely. A fast food chain will pay a kid 15 an hour to push a button and TRY to make change, or they will add a touch screen that doesn't make mistakes (the customer does). It would cost less to put in a touch screen system for customers, then pay 1 employee to do the work of all of them for a year. Unless of course you think they WOULDN'T do this because it would be WRONG.I think they wouldn't do this for several reasons:
1. Computers are not infallible, especially when user error is involved.
2. Touch screens are unhygienic, especially in an environment where food is held in the hands.
3. People fear change, especially in business. Why wouldn't they stick to what works?
You keep trying to paint this as a moral issue for some reason. I'm just giving you facts.
BTW.. how are the employment figures for the car sector?No idea. To my knowledge, unemployment isn't calculated by industry in any systematic way.
Also.. the time period you are referring to was 1977-1981, right? 2.30 an hour to 3.35 an hour? 45.6% increase. This is slightly different then a 100%+ increase some want. (and Seattle is doing). ... It's interesting that you stopped looking at unemployment in 1981. Since it spiked to 10.8% in 1982. I guess we could cherry pick any numbers we like though.I rounded it up to 46% (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?90666-15-dollar-an-hour-minimum-wage-in-Seattle&p=1713908#post1713908), but sure. I stopped looking at unemployment in 1981 because minimum wage didn't go up in 1982, as I already said. If I tell you red cars are safe and you say "but this blue car is dangerous!!!" how is that relevant to what I said? Minimum wage went up, unemployment didn't. Minimum wage didn't go up, unemployment did. When you look at all the data, as I have, there's no correlation.
Also, there was a recession going on during this time. (Much like now really in a way) Unemployment was already high. But still... companies Did. Not. Have. The. Technology. they do now to remove some of the labor from their costs. Companies in the 80's eliminated as many people as they could to decrease labor costs. If labor would have been 2.30 in the mid 80's we may not have seen as many people "laid off".Don't you think it's ridiculous that your counter argument to what did happen is what may have happened?
Increased labor costs prompt companies to look for ways to reduce labor costs. That is a simple fact. In the past, a company may have been able to absorb the increase in labor costs, but with a worldwide economy now, it's next to impossible to double labor costs (or nearly so) and still compete with other companies, or stay profitable.What you keep refusing to see is that doubling minimum wage does not imply doubling labor costs. You insist that companies will give raises to everyone else up the line, but that's not what actually happens.

Think of it this way. Suppose your favorite ball player batted .300 the last two years, but he batted .200 in the first half of last year and .250 in the first half of this year. If you know his average for the year (and at bats for each half) is the same, obviously he must have batted better in the second half of last year than the second half of this year, right? Same principle. The average real wage (and unemployment) stays the same and the real minimum wage goes up, therefore some other real wage must go down.

[AnticorRifling]

I heard the day minimum wage goes up is the day people are instantly fired so the above is the right way to look at data because bleed over and delayed impact aren't real things. Excellent point Latrin.

[Methais]

I hate it when I see a thread has new posts and the first thing I see is one of Latrin's long bullshit posts that spends 13 paragraphs saying nothing.

Maybe Latrin is Obama!

[AnticorRifling]

I hate it when I see a thread has new posts and the first thing I see is one of Latrin's long bullshit posts that spends 13 paragraphs saying nothing.

Maybe Latrin is Obama!

Latrin writes his own stuff, couldn't be.

[Atlanteax]

Because from 1977 to 1981 the min wage increased by 46%, but because it was spread out over several years there was no problem with unemployment. Jan 77: 7.5%. Jan 81: 7.5%.


Latrin, I'm kind of surprised you used the late 70's early 80's as an example of a good economy. The economy was fucked, we went from a single income being able to support a family to both parents having to work full time to make ends meet. ::boggle::

He does the same thing with his 'basketball analysis'

He is a prime example of those that give statistical analysis 'a bad name'.

[Methais]

He does the same thing with his 'basketball analysis'

He is a prime example of those that give statistical analysis 'a bad name'.

A wise man gave me his analysis of Latrin once.


I actually think worse of Latrin than just thinking he's a liar. I suspect he's some sort of anti-social home schooled semi autistic guy who's rarely spoken to a real human in his life. I don't think he understands how the human mind works, and thinks he can explain life with numbers. The guy won't even commit to picking his favorite NBA team. He's a weird cat.

[leifastagsweed]

Not everything is about Seattle. I hope it works for them, I have a feeling it won't tho.

Title of this thread: 15 dollar an hour minimum wage in Seattle

LOLOL

[Latrinsorm]

I actually think worse of Latrin than just thinking he's a liar. I suspect he's some sort of anti-social home schooled semi autistic guy who's rarely spoken to a real human in his life. I don't think he understands how the human mind works, and thinks he can explain life with numbers. The guy won't even commit to picking his favorite NBA team. He's a weird cat.How is being anti-social (let alone autistic) worse than being a liar? Lying is way worse. Also: algebraically, you're a butthead. So there.
I heard the day minimum wage goes up is the day people are instantly fired so the above is the right way to look at data because bleed over and delayed impact aren't real things. Excellent point Latrin.You're welcome to pick whatever lag period you like (so long as it is evenly divisible by months), the result will be the same.

I would also like to point out that, as always, problems in my data do not absolve the paucity of yours (collective). You've got Jarvan over here accusing me of cherry picking data because I didn't include a year when the minimum wage wasn't even raised, that's the closest any of you mooks has come to citing data. And I'm the bad guy. Good thing I've got this black hat.

[Methais]

that's the closest any of you mooks has come to citing data


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vw8t4O9JQM

[Atlanteax]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/150831140047-minumum-wage-780x439.jpg

Restaurants in NYC campaigning against it.

[Fallen]

Those look like fairly nice headphones.

[Astray]

Those look like fairly nice headphones.

Which probably means they suck.

[Taernath]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/150831140047-minumum-wage-780x439.jpg

Restaurants in NYC campaigning against it.

Wonder how much that billboard cost.

[Astray]

Wonder how much that billboard cost.

Enough for two studio apartments to be merged into one.

[Latrinsorm]

Restaurants in NYC campaigning against it.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment_Policies_Institute

[Shaps]

Only thing with the billboard is they should have said.. "Who needs education or ambition/desire to better oneself/desire to advance/desire to achieve/etc...."

As you can still work hard at a low wage job. Just as you can work hard at a high paying job.

[Androidpk]

He got that ambition baby look in his eyes
This week he mopping floors next week it's the fries

[Fallen]

New York state will gradually raise the minimum wage for fast-food workers to $15 an hour — the first time any state has set the minimum that high.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/11/new-york-state-approves-15-minimum-wage-for-fast-food-workers/

[Methais]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/11/new-york-state-approves-15-minimum-wage-for-fast-food-workers/

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/McDonalds-Machines.jpg

[Kronius]

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/McDonalds-Machines.jpg

Pretty much.

[Atlanteax]

now the governor wants the entire state to have $15/hr minimum... geezus

[Atlanteax]

Considering how many times a relatively simple (non-combo) order got messed up, even with the same individual at the register, I'll take the machine for accuracy.

[Methais]

Considering how many times a relatively simple (non-combo) order got messed up, even with the same individual at the register, I'll take the machine for accuracy.

http://www.skippyskip.com/generator/dat/676.jpg

[Parkbandit]

now the governor wants the entire state to have $15/hr minimum... geezus

And that big giant sucking sound is people / companies leaving NY and moving to FL.

Fuck :(

[Taernath]

http://cdn.inquisitr.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/McDonalds-Machines.jpg

Once we find a way to allow automatic cashiers to allow the sale of alcohol, we'll be that much closer to world peace.

[Warriorbird]

And that big giant sucking sound is people / companies leaving NY and moving to FL.

Fuck :(

Secret plot to turn Florida blue!

[Parkbandit]

Secret plot to turn Florida blue!

It's not a secret. Fucking crazy mother fuckers.

[Drektor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIJbcj5S0Us

totally worth 15 bucks.

[Astray]

Wasn't there a huge backlash to this? People who were suddenly making $15 asking for less hours because they wouldn't qualify for government benefits anymore?

[Parkbandit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIJbcj5S0Us

totally worth 15 bucks.

If that lady made $15 an hour, she would have handled that customer completely professionally.

[darkcipher]

Wasn't there a huge backlash to this? People who were suddenly making $15 asking for less hours because they wouldn't qualify for government benefits anymore?

Yep, much better to pay people less than a living wage and supplement them with government benefits (which we ultimately pay for anyway). Why fix a system if it's working fine?

[Fallen]

Yep, much better to pay people less than a living wage and supplement them with government benefits (which we ultimately pay for anyway). Why fix a system if it's working fine?

How will they ever get motivated to take on tens of thousands of dollars in student debt if they're comfy flipping burgers for a living?

[Astray]

Yep, much better to pay people less than a living wage and supplement them with government benefits (which we ultimately pay for anyway). Why fix a system if it's working fine?

The point was that even though these people were now making a living wage, they didn't want to work because it directly disqualified them from hand outs. You can fix the system but you can't fix the people.

[Kembal]

How will they ever get motivated to take on tens of thousands of dollars in student debt if they're comfy flipping burgers for a living?

I think there was a study just released that shows the vast majority of student debt is concentrated on people who went to for-profit colleges and community colleges. (not necessarily graduated) Even though they have less debt (because tuition is cheaper), their earning potential is a lot less, especially if they didn't graduate.

I was surprised at the community college part of it, but not so surprised at the for profit college part of it. (they're not regulated enough)

[crb]

now the governor wants the entire state to have $15/hr minimum... geezus

He has to.

You cannot arbitrarily single out one group of people for a minimum wage, that isn't consitutional. Not that progressives usually care about what is constitutional or not, but someone with more sense probably whispered in his ear that this law was going to be overturned if he picked on only one particular industry with it.

[Fallen]

He has to.

You cannot arbitrarily single out one group of people for a minimum wage, that isn't consitutional. Not that progressives usually care about what is constitutional or not, but someone with more sense probably whispered in his ear that this law was going to be overturned if he picked on only one particular industry with it.

I was wondering why it was state wide. It's somewhat ironic, because him doing that to cover his ass from conservative pushback made things overall worse from a conservative viewpoint.

[Androidpk]

Sounds good to me.

[Latrinsorm]

He has to. You cannot arbitrarily single out one group of people for a minimum wage, that isn't consitutional. Not that progressives usually care about what is constitutional or not, but someone with more sense probably whispered in his ear that this law was going to be overturned if he picked on only one particular industry with it.Exemptions to the federal minimum wage have existed for almost 40 years, and minimum wages specific to farm workers existed for 10 years before that. I would love to know what part of the Constitution you think supports your case.
Pretty much.Not singling you out, this is for everyone who sees that coming. When? How many? Let's make a testable hypothesis here, not just pat ourselves on the back for knowing what is coming to some unspecified degree at some unspecified future time.

[Vorpodu]

..

[Candor]

Exemptions to the federal minimum wage have existed for almost 40 years, and minimum wages specific to farm workers existed for 10 years before that.

I'm too tired at the moment to verify the 40 year/50 year timeframes, but Latrinsorm is correct that exceptions to the minimum wage laws exist. I was a paperboy for two years a few dec (cough cough)...err years ago, and I can assure you I did not earn minimum wage.

[Androidpk]

I'm too tired at the moment to verify the 40 year/50 year timeframes, but Latrinsorm is correct that exceptions to the minimum wage laws exist. I was a paperboy for two years a few dec (cough cough)...err years ago, and I can assure you I did not earn minimum wage.

Found you

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-6U1Fn054DnM/VX1e7q5QT7I/AAAAAAACI_E/x6A7c9tDang/s640/30%2B-%2BTitanic%2Bsinks%2Bon%2BApril%2B15%2B1912%2BNews paper%2Bboy%2BNed%2BParfett%2Bsells%2Bcopies%2Bof% 2Bthe%2Bevening%2Bpaper%2Bbearing%2Bnews%2Bof%2Bth e%2Bdisaster%2BApri.jpg

[Warriorbird]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Olivertwist_front.jpg/1920px-Olivertwist_front.jpg

Candor learned petty thievery from a man named Fagan.

[Methais]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Olivertwist_front.jpg/1920px-Olivertwist_front.jpg

Candor learned petty thievery from a man named Fagan.

But his friends just called him Fag. Even Fagan.

[crb]

Exemptions to the federal minimum wage have existed for almost 40 years, and minimum wages specific to farm workers existed for 10 years before that. I would love to know what part of the Constitution you think supports your case.

An exemption is not the same thing as passing a law to affect only one group of people, food service workers who work for certain specific companies. The 14th Amendment by the way. Obviously, you need better law books in that mental hospital.

[Candor]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Olivertwist_front.jpg/1920px-Olivertwist_front.jpg

Candor learned petty thievery from a man named Fagan.

Heck no, I *am* Fagin. And please spell my name right.

[Warriorbird]

Heck no, I *am* Fagin. And please spell my name right.

Right, right. Fagin! It's been a while.

I'd still say Candor's far more Oliver. He never had to await being hung.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/56/Fagin_from_Oliver_Twist.JPG

...and it just makes you almost 200 as opposed to over 200! I'm not THAT mean.

[Latrinsorm]

An exemption is not the same thing as passing a law to affect only one group of people, food service workers who work for certain specific companies.Obviously you would pass the law saying the minimum wage affected everyone, but grant exemptions to everyone but X group. C'mon, that's kid stuff.
The 14th Amendment by the way. Obviously, you need better law books in that mental hospital."Freedom of contract is a qualified, and not an absolute, right. There is no absolute freedom to do as one wills or to contract as one chooses. This power under the Constitution to restrict freedom of contract has had many illustrations. That it may be exercised in the public interest with respect to contracts between employer and employee is undeniable."

From West Coast Hotel vs. Parrish 1937 (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/300/379.html), and they even go on to cite multiple scenarios where Constitutional labor laws were passed specifically referring to a single industry or group of people. I was honestly hoping for something more interesting from you, this is black letter law.

[Methais]

Not Seattle, but yeah.

http://dailysignal.com/2015/09/30/california-labor-union-that-fought-for-15-minimum-wage-now-wants-an-exemption/

[Taernath]

lol


The loophole would allow employers with collective bargaining agreements to sidestep the wage hike and pay their union members below the proposed $15-per-hour minimum wage.

James Sherk, a research fellow in labor economics at The Heritage Foundation, said the exemption is a union attempt to encourage businesses to unionize by making themselves the only low-wage option as union membership continues to drop off.

You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[Parkbandit]

So, the "We need to have people earning a 'living wage'" is just bullshit when it comes to unions?

Fantasticly hypocritical.

[Methais]

Second generation fast food worker bitching about making $8 an hour.

https://www.facebook.com/WhiteHouse/videos/10153828348879238/

Second generation fast food worker.

Second generation fast food worker

SECOND GENERATION FAST FOOD WORKER

https://teacherorwildlifetrainer.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/double_facepalm.png

[Astray]

I vividly remember being an apprentice back in the day. I would have killed for $8 an hour.

[Atlanteax]

I liked this comment:

Something is wrong if he's been in the industry for nearly 20 years and only makes $8/hour. Why isn't he promotable? Why hasn't he risen in the company? Is he disabled somehow?
Probably mentally disabled... if he cannot do better for himself.

[FinisWolf]

So, the "We need to have people earning a 'living wage'" is just bullshit when it comes to unions?

Fantasticly hypocritical.

I believe that should read; "Fantastically hypocritical and yet, very typical." - Just saying...

[Astray]

I liked this comment:

Probably mentally disabled... if he cannot do better for himself.

I had a guy with downs working for me and he was a great cook. The person in question likely shows no desire to climb the ranks or, most likely, he fucking sucks and it's hard to find a permanent replacement and/or it's cheaper/easier to keep him around.

Fast food places go through workers pretty quickly. People either can't hack it or they decide it's simply not for them.