I AGREE WITH HILLARY!

[Parkbandit]

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, in a wide-ranging interview today with Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reporters and editors, said she would have left her church if her pastor made the sort of inflammatory remarks Sen. Barack Obama’s former pastor made.

“He would not have been my pastor,” Clinton said. “You don’t choose your family, but you choose what church you want to attend.”…

“You know, I spoke out against Don Imus (who was fired from his radio and television shows after making racially insensitive remarks), saying that hate speech was unacceptable in any setting, and I believe that,” Clinton said. “I just think you have to speak out against that. You certainly have to do that, if not explicitly, then implicitly by getting up and moving.”

______________________________________

/agree

[Stanley Burrell]

Shut the fuck up.

[Parkbandit]

Sorry dipshit... won't happen. If you don't like it, perhaps you should simply fuck off.

better yet.. go get high on your mommy's dime.. and then you won't care as much.

[Clove]

/agree

Since you wouldn't be caught dead in a church (or supporting one) I'm gonna go with "so fucking what?" Now, if you're gonna drop your mechanic, or lawyer, or doctor, or any of your other elective associations if they happen to say something offensive in public well then that's a horse of a different color. And I'd LOVE to hold you to it.

[Nieninque]

US elections are so much more entertaining than UK elections.

[Parkbandit]

Since you wouldn't be caught dead in a church (or supporting one) I'm gonna go with "so fucking what?" Now, if you're gonna drop your mechanic, or lawyer, or doctor, or any of your other elective associations if they happen to say something offensive in public well then that's a horse of a different color. And I'd LOVE to hold you to it.

Has ZERO to do with religion.

And this wasn't his mechanic. This was someone Obama himself said was a very important figure in his life. His spiritual advisor. Your comparison sucks.

[Gan]

And now I believe the sky IS falling.

[Crazy Bard]

You what?

[Parkbandit]

And now I believe the sky IS falling.

MUUAAHAA! Maybe I've just 'seen the light' and decide that Liberalism isn't as bad as I once thought? Maybe 8 years of Clinton weren't enough?

[Clove]

Has ZERO to do with religion.

And this wasn't his mechanic. This was someone Obama himself said was a very important figure in his life. His spiritual advisor. Your comparison sucks.

According to Hillary this isn't about religion OR influence, it's about implicit support by not confronting or abandoning the person/organization that made the offensive statement. In the terms she expressed what I said IS a valid comparison.


“You know, I spoke out against Don Imus (who was fired from his radio and television shows after making racially insensitive remarks), saying that hate speech was unacceptable in any setting, and I believe that,” Clinton said. “I just think you have to speak out against that. You certainly have to do that, if not explicitly, then implicitly by getting up and moving.” - Hillary Clinton

Last time I checked Don Imus wasn't the head of a church (or even a mechanic). Influential maybe? I know he'd certainly be MY first choice when I need advice.

That being said "a mechanic" was only example of a class (any elective relationship) I also put forth a lawyer or doctor both of whom can have quite a bit of influence on their clientele. Pick any elective relationship you like- one with some balls even.

Personally I think someone is afraid of losing a good mechinic...

Comprehension FTW.

[Gan]

MUUAAHAA! Maybe I've just 'seen the light' and decide that Liberalism isn't as bad as I once thought? Maybe 8 years of Clinton weren't enough?

HAHAHAHA


You're fucking evil.

:lol:

[Clove]

MUUAAHAA! Maybe I've just 'seen the light' and decide that Liberalism isn't as bad as I once thought? Maybe 8 years of Clinton weren't enough?

The -E- has possessed him using some crazy mixture of Jesuit-Hindu voodoo.

[CrystalTears]

“He would not have been my pastor,” Clinton said. “You don’t choose your family, but you choose what church you want to attend.”…
Of COURSE she's going to say that she would dump a church in the aftermath of Obama's conflicts. She has to save some face from her sniper-dodging fuckup.

[Clove]

Of COURSE she's going to say that she would dump a church in the aftermath of Obama's conflicts. She has to save some face from her sniper-dodging fuckup.

Which begs the question, would she drop her church if she caught the pastor telling a huge fucking lie?

[CrystalTears]

Which begs the question, would she drop her church if she caught the pastor telling a huge fucking lie?

This is not a business, this is show business. Punching below the belt is not only all right, it's rewarded.

-Rex from Swimming with Sharks
;)

[AnticorRifling]

If you're dodging sniper fire to get to the church is it then ok for the pastor to preach hate once you're inside?

That's the real question.

[NocturnalRob]

Which begs the question, would she drop her church if she caught the pastor telling a huge fucking lie?

she didn't drop her husband

[Clove]

she didn't drop her husband

Bill is her husband still sure, but that really depends on what your definition of is, is.

[NocturnalRob]

Bill is her husband still sure, but that really depends on what your definition of is, is.

hahah...oh bill, you're a trainwreck in slow motion

[Gan]

Bill is her husband still sure, but that really depends on what your definition of is, is.

As much as Bill likes to drop his pants, I would hazard a guess and say that Hillary wears the pants in the family.

Hill-dog represent.

[Clove]

As much as Bill likes to drop his pants, I would hazard a guess and say that Hillary wears the pants in the family.

Hill-dog represent.

"Bitches get things done."

[Lord Nelek]

I would agree with that statement. Barack needs to come out and repudiate that church. All that pastor does is spew racist remarks. If Obama really is "for change" he needs to lay the smack down on that pastor, but he won't, because he's part of that church, and is probably just as racist as that pastor.

[Warriorbird]

Kinda funny when you have both McCain and Huckabee defending Obama over this.

[Clove]

I would agree with that statement. Barack needs to come out and repudiate that church...

Is it really necessary for Barack to repudiate that church (as a muslim, I mean)?

[BigWorm]

Yeah, Obama's imam is going to be fucking pissed when he finds out about all this Christian business.

[Latrinsorm]

Here's what I don't get: Sen. Clinton gets caught in an obvious, verifiably false lie. To shift focus, she makes another obvious, verifiably false lie (that Sen. Obama's pastor uses racist "hate speech"). How can she expect that to work?

[Gan]

The same reason why the Japonese thought they could build aircraft out of bamboo and canvas and win the war.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Parkbandit]

Here's what I don't get: Sen. Clinton gets caught in an obvious, verifiably false lie. To shift focus, she makes another obvious, verifiably false lie (that Sen. Obama's pastor uses racist "hate speech"). How can she expect that to work?

Really. He is the type of person I would like everyone to sit in front of every Sunday. THEN we could finally end Racism in America.

I find it amusing that the people that have no problem with his Youtube sermons would have a fucking hissy fit if he was white, talking about white supremacy. David Duke comes to mind. Ben? Whatever happened to good 'ol David Duke?

[Stanley Burrell]

Sorry dipshit... won't happen. If you don't like it, perhaps you should simply fuck off.

better yet.. go get high on your mommy's dime.. and then you won't care as much.

You're right. I AGREE WITH

You shutting the fuck up. Mikey.




http://www.stfu.se/stfu.gif

Seriously though: No.

[Latrinsorm]

The continually amazing fervor with which you cling to the patently incorrect premise of Pastor Wright's racism is what amuses me.

[Parkbandit]

The continually amazing fervor with which you cling to the patently incorrect premise of Pastor Wright's racism is what amuses me.


You continue to amuse me. I can't possibly guess you are an Obama supporter.. can I?

:rofl:

Like I said.. if Wright was White, and you weren't voting for the nominee in his church.. you'd be singing a different tune. Your objectivity is a joke.

[Hulkein]

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, in a wide-ranging interview today with Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reporters and editors, said she would have left her church if her pastor made the sort of inflammatory remarks Sen. Barack Obama’s former pastor made.

“He would not have been my pastor,” Clinton said. “You don’t choose your family, but you choose what church you want to attend.”…

“You know, I spoke out against Don Imus (who was fired from his radio and television shows after making racially insensitive remarks), saying that hate speech was unacceptable in any setting, and I believe that,” Clinton said. “I just think you have to speak out against that. You certainly have to do that, if not explicitly, then implicitly by getting up and moving.”

______________________________________

/agree

She is 100% correct here.

My family left our parish for a lot less a few years ago.

Edited to add: I would still choose him over Clinton, though.

[Stanley Burrell]

The continually amazing fervor with which you cling to the patently incorrect premise of Pastor Wright's racism is what amuses me.

ParkBandit no comprende > ~2 syllable words. Words like "fervor" and "continually" and "The" escape his Alzheimer's.

[BigWorm]

Rev. Wright saying that American policy was part of the cause of 9/11 is way worse than when Jerry Falwell said that 9/11 was the fault of the gays and atheists. Good thing the republicans never pander to racists and bigots.

[Warriorbird]

Parkbandit once again stepping up to say something positive about black people. Praise Jesus!

[BigWorm]

Man, white people have it so hard in America. It's a wonder any of them survive at all.

[Parkbandit]

ParkBandit no comprende > ~2 syllable words. Words like "fervor" and "continually" and "The" escape his Alzheimer's.

This from you? Come now Stainley.. you have trouble posting a simple thought on an internet forum.

Seriously.. go ask Mommy for a hit.

[Parkbandit]

Parkbandit once again stepping up to say something positive about black people. Praise Jesus!

Clearly he's a racist!
Warriorbird, once again adding zero to the discussion.

[Stanley Burrell]

This from you? Come now Stainley.. you have trouble posting a simple thought on an internet forum.

Seriously.. go ask Mommy for a hit.

Internet is capitalized you stooped piece of shit.

[BigWorm]

This from you? Come now Stainley.. you have trouble posting a simple thought on an internet forum.

Seriously.. go ask Mommy for a hit.

Christ, come up with something new. If you're going to ad hominem, at least use some new material every now and then. We get it. Stanley had a drug problem and stole money from his parents. Instead of deflecting, maybe you should actually argue an issue for once.

[Jesuit]

Christ, come up with something new. If you're going to ad hominem, at least use some new material every now and then. We get it. Stanley had a drug problem and stole money from his parents. Instead of deflecting, maybe you should actually argue an issue for once.

What was Stanley's issue? I must've missed something.

[Stanley Burrell]

Christ, come up with something new. If you're going to ad hominem, at least use some new material every now and then. We get it. Stanley had a drug problem and stole money from his parents. Instead of deflecting, maybe you should actually argue an issue for once.

In Michael ParkBandit's defense, he probably has to get more than a few interneurons going; not working since 1894, in order to be capable of coming up with new material.

[Warriorbird]

I'm just using pointing this trend out as a marker for how many times you say negative things about black people, Parkbandit. On the day you say something positive about somebody black I'll also make a note of it.

[Stanley Burrell]

What was Stanley's issue? I must've missed something.

Nothing. ParkBandit's just gay, in the non-derogatory-can't-report-this-post-for-using-a-bundle-of-sticks analogy. Kind of gay.

[Parkbandit]

Christ, come up with something new. If you're going to ad hominem, at least use some new material every now and then. We get it. Stanley had a drug problem and stole money from his parents. Instead of deflecting, maybe you should actually argue an issue for once.

Take a look at your posts in this thread.. then take a look at mine. Once you are done doing that very simple task.. feel free to fuck off. Clearly, hypocrite is too big a word for you to understand... so I'll just call you dumb.

[Jesuit]

I'm just using pointing this trend out as a marker for how many times you say negative things about black people, Parkbandit. On the day you say something positive about somebody black I'll also make a note of it.


PB once told me he thought Farrakhan was cool for being beamed up by a spaceship, does that count as positive?

[Parkbandit]

What was Stanley's issue? I must've missed something.

Clearly Stanley is a liberal who is voting for Obama.. so he gets a free pass.

[Parkbandit]

I'm just using pointing this trend out as a marker for how many times you say negative things about black people, Parkbandit. On the day you say something positive about somebody black I'll also make a note of it.

I don't judge people on the color of their skin. You should try it sometime.

[Warriorbird]

Right, right. We believe you!

http://www.subgenius.com/bigfist/pics6/funway/JR-BOB-DOBBS.jpg

[Parkbandit]

In Michael ParkBandit's defense, he probably has to get more than a few interneurons going; not working since 1894, in order to be capable of coming up with new material.

Yes.. because making fun of my age is brand spanking new.

Well done.. you earned it.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/hypocrite-1.jpg

[Gan]

Right, right. We believe you!

You say 'we' like you have a fucking following around here or something.

[Sean of the Thread]

The same reason why the Japonese thought they could build aircraft out of bamboo and canvas and win the war.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

While not bamboo many US and UK aircraft were built of various wood and canvas in WWII.

Just sayin'

[Warriorbird]

You say 'we' like you have a fucking following around here or something.
-Gan

So... people seriously care deeply about your posts in the Politics folder? I wouldn't describe ANY of us as having a following.

Do you expect PMs of "Keep fighting the good fight?" or something? That'd be Backlashian.

[Stanley Burrell]

Yes.. because making fun of my age is brand spanking new.

Well done.. you earned it.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/hypocrite-1.jpg

YOU WON THE INTERNET!

[Warriorbird]

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/images/2007/06/01/change_of_subject_seal.png

http://jmason.org/slack/S-or-D.gif

[Jesuit]

So... people seriously care deeply about your posts in the Politics folder? I wouldn't describe ANY of us as having a following.

Do you expect PMs of "Keep fighting the good fight?" or something? That'd be Backlashian.

Nah PMs are lame, Gan has Crystaltears do all of his cheerleading, you should see how hot she looks with pom poms and a cheerleading outfit.

[Stanley Burrell]

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/images/2007/06/01/change_of_subject_seal.png

I want Methais to post that transcript about clocks.

/sigh

[Asha]

US politics pwnes, and this thread delivers.

[BigWorm]

/agree

Sorry dipshit... won't happen. If you don't like it, perhaps you should simply fuck off.

better yet.. go get high on your mommy's dime.. and then you won't care as much.


Has ZERO to do with religion.

And this wasn't his mechanic. This was someone Obama himself said was a very important figure in his life. His spiritual advisor. Your comparison sucks.

MUUAAHAA! Maybe I've just 'seen the light' and decide that Liberalism isn't as bad as I once thought? Maybe 8 years of Clinton weren't enough?

Really. He is the type of person I would like everyone to sit in front of every Sunday. THEN we could finally end Racism in America.

I find it amusing that the people that have no problem with his Youtube sermons would have a fucking hissy fit if he was white, talking about white supremacy. David Duke comes to mind. Ben? Whatever happened to good 'ol David Duke?

You continue to amuse me. I can't possibly guess you are an Obama supporter.. can I?



Like I said.. if Wright was White, and you weren't voting for the nominee in his church.. you'd be singing a different tune. Your objectivity is a joke.

This from you? Come now Stainley.. you have trouble posting a simple thought on an internet forum.

Seriously.. go ask Mommy for a hit.


Take a look at your posts in this thread.. then take a look at mine. Once you are done doing that very simple task.. feel free to fuck off. Clearly, hypocrite is too big a word for you to understand... so I'll just call you dumb.

I'm still looking for a post where you added anything to the conversation, although in comparing Rev. Wright to David Duke (a Ron Paul supporter btw) you may have thought you were making some kind of point.

I mostly see personal attacks and you complaining that you can't be as openly racist as you'd like.

[Stanley Burrell]

I'm still looking for a post where you added anything to the conversation, although in comparing Rev. Wright to David Duke (a Huckabee supporter btw) you may have thought you were making some kind of point.

I mostly see personal attacks and you complaining that you can't be as openly racist as you'd like.

I'm secretly working for the Clinton camp. Why else all the angst?

[Gan]

So... people seriously care deeply about your posts in the Politics folder? I wouldn't describe ANY of us as having a following.

Do you expect PMs of "Keep fighting the good fight?" or something? That'd be Backlashian.

Is that secret code for asking permission to PM me?

Stalker Alert.

:help:

Keep your PM's to yourself.

[Gan]

Nah PMs are lame, Gan has Crystaltears do all of his cheerleading, you should see how hot she looks with pom poms and a cheerleading outfit.

Speaking of cheerleading.


:rah:

[Parkbandit]

I'm still looking for a post where you added anything to the conversation, although in comparing Rev. Wright to David Duke (a Huckabee supporter btw) you may have thought you were making some kind of point.

I mostly see personal attacks and you complaining that you can't be as openly racist as you'd like.

Did you go over your posts here? Please show me how you've added anything to the debate.. you know, before I call you out for being the hypocrite you've always been.

[Warriorbird]

He amused me. He came up with a great nickname for you. I think he's added immeasurably.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Smile_fasdfdsfoiueire.svg/498px-Smile_fasdfdsfoiueire.svg.png

[Daniel]

Did you go over your posts here? Please show me how you've added anything to the debate.. you know, before I call you out for being the hypocrite you've always been.

I'd still shit myself if you ever actually contributed to a thread with something substantial and substaniated.

[BigWorm]

Did you go over your posts here? Please show me how you've added anything to the debate.. you know, before I call you out for being the hypocrite you've always been.

I didn't claim to be driving the discussion like you did. I was just calling you out on doing something that I see you do repeatedly in lots of threads on this forum. But I'm dumb, so what do I know?

[BigWorm]

He amused me. He came up with a great nickname for you. I think he's added immeasurably.


Thank you, but it was a softball. He's a troll, plain and simple. It's always the same ad hominem attacks and strawmans.

[Clove]

Nah PMs are lame, Gan has Crystaltears do all of his cheerleading, you should see how hot she looks with pom poms and a cheerleading outfit.

You should, but it's not complete until she's in pigtails. Hotness. Oh, and Tsa'ah? Is that you??!

[Apathy]

Do you agree with this?


In Monday's ed board meeting with the Philadelphia Daily News, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., was asked about the basic math obstructing her path to the nomination.

Specifically, she was asked her plans if, come June, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., remains in the lead with pledged delegates, how she would try to convince superdelegates to give her the nomination if Obama does end up the choice of primary voters and caucus goers?

"I just don't think this is over yet," she said, "and I don't think that it is smart for us to take a position that might disadvantage us in November. And also remember that pledged delegates in most states are not pledged. You know, there is no requirement that anybody vote for anybody. They're just like superdelegates."

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/03/hillary-wants-t.html



Not really setting you up (much), I'm just more interested in what the right contingent thinks about this in the context of processes etc blah blah.

[Parkbandit]

I'd still shit myself if you ever actually contributed to a thread with something substantial and substaniated.


You mean like "I know Rev. Wright personally.. I know he loves white people. I can't prove it.. but just trust me"?

Or were you referring to your now famous and often imitated sarcastically "Woosh"?

Or maybe how tough you are on the internet?

Sorry.. I already gave out the hypocrite award today. You should have saved this for tomorrow.. it was a sure winner.

[Back]

She really needs to do everyone a favor and drop out now.

[Latrinsorm]

Like I said.. if Wright was White, and you weren't voting for the nominee in his church.. you'd be singing a different tune. Your objectivity is a joke.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Enjoy.

[Sean]

I didn't realize that someone being influential in your life meant you had to agree with all of their stances, even the crazy ones.

[BigWorm]

I didn't realize that someone being influential in your life meant you had to agree with all of their stances, even the crazy ones.

I think that's because most people couldn't imagine thinking critically about the views of their leaders, especially in a religious setting.

[Gan]

I didn't realize that someone being influential in your life meant you had to agree with all of their stances, even the crazy ones.

It certainly begs the question as to how influential that person has been, or still is. And if those crazy stances, ideas, and beliefs are part of that influence.

If you cant stand the question being asked, then it definately needs to be asked.

[Keller]

Christ, come up with something new. If you're going to ad hominem, at least use some new material every now and then. We get it. Stanley had a drug problem and stole money from his parents. Instead of deflecting, maybe you should actually argue an issue for once.

Thank god someone else is beginning to see the light.

PT post recipe: 1 part :rofl:, 1 part personal insult, 1 part hyperbole.

[Keller]

It certainly begs the question as to how influential that person has been, or still is. And if those crazy stances, ideas, and beliefs are part of that influence.

If you cant stand the question being asked, then it definately needs to be asked.

If also begs the question: Why, in years of recorded sermons, could they only pull 3 out-of-context 10 second snipits of "racism"?

[Keller]

You should, but it's not complete until she's in pigtails. Hotness. Oh, and Tsa'ah? Is that you??!

I love a girl with handlebars.

[Daniel]

You mean like "I know Rev. Wright personally.. I know he loves white people. I can't prove it.. but just trust me"?



No I mean like, Reverend Wright has been preaching for 20 years on a platform of Racism and Hate, even though I can't provide one quote that actually disparages white people.



Or were you referring to your now famous and often imitated sarcastically "Woosh"?

Woosh.



Or maybe how tough you are on the internet?


Perhaps I should have saved the woosh for here, because obviously, that comment went way over your head, it had nothing to do with being tough and everything to do with being successful. but it's okay though. I'm pretty tough in real life too.



Sorry.. I already gave out the hypocrite award today. You should have saved this for tomorrow.. it was a sure winner.

I'll add that to the list.

[Daniel]

If also begs the question: Why, in years of recorded sermons, could they only pull 3 out-of-context 10 second snipits of "racism"?

Or how come those 3 out of context 10 second snipits don't actually say anything negative about white people.

[Keller]

Or how come those 3 out of context 10 second snipits don't actually say anything negative about white people.

We've both been asking the question, "Please explain why these quotes are racist" for the last two weeks. I'm not naive enough to think they are actually going to engage that query anytime soon. So I decided to change the question in hopes of actually discussing this issue instead of just repeating, over and over, "OMG HE R RACIST!"

[Daniel]

You must believe in reparations.

[Mabus]

Or how come those 3 out of context 10 second snipits don't actually say anything negative about white people.

So you are saying you agree with Wright on his views of race in history and the world?

That unless you were a specific race then you cannot understand strife, hardship and can never know how those things feel?

That Jesus was "black"?

That if you are "black" that you have to work twice as hard to be accepted by "the rich white people that control this country"?

I always enjoyed reading your posts, even back on the old GS forum, but if you hold those beliefs then I am astounded. I find those beliefs and statements by Wright to be offensive, untrue, racist and definately saying something "negative about white people".

[Daniel]

I'm pretty sure that Wright never said that if you were not black you could not understand Strife and Hardship. As he often identified with Palestinians (and other minorities) in those speeches

I'm also pretty sure that he said HILLARY CLINTON, did not know what it's like to be a black man in America. I'd say there is a pretty big difference from the average black man..that still has to deal with the legacy of systematic racism and Hillary Clinton.

I'm pretty sure that there was a good chance that Jesus was browned skinned considering the racial composition of the region at the time. (Even still..there have been and continue to be some pretty outlandish historical accounts coming out of historical religion as a whole. I don't see this comment as any more dangerous or racist than some of the stuff that is coming out).

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see those comments as racist.

P.s. Who were you on the old GS forums?

[Mabus]

I'm pretty sure that Wright never said that if you were not black you could not understand Strife and Hardship. As he often identified with Palestinians (and other minorities) in those speeches

I'm also pretty sure that he said HILLARY CLINTON, did not know what it's like to be a black man in America. I'd say there is a pretty big difference from the average black man..that still has to deal with the legacy of systematic racism and Hillary Clinton.

And why can Hillary Clinton not now these things...?
...because she is white?

That is what he is saying isn't it?

He did not talk about economic status or educational differences between Barak and Hillary.

He talked about race difference.


I'm pretty sure that there was a good chance that Jesus was browned skinned considering the racial composition of the region at the time. (Even still..there have been and continue to be some pretty outlandish historical accounts coming out of historical religion as a whole. I don't see this comment as any more dangerous or racist than some of the stuff that is coming out).
Being "brown skinned" does not make one black. Ask any Arabs or Persians being oppressed in South Africa, by "blacks" about that.

Jesus was Jewish. Jews are one of the Semitic peoples from southwestern Asia. They are not "blacks" from Africa. Why does Wright take his status as being from the Jews away? That is racist.

<kidding around>
Now a case could be made that Jesus's father did not stick around, raise Jesus or pay child support, but I doubt Mary's baby-daddy was a "black" man.
</kidding>

From the stories they did keep the fact that she was pregnant from others until she and Joseph married, but upon the birth of a "black" child the whole community would likely have stoned both of them. It would definately have been mentioned by at least one writer if Jesus was a different race then the rest of the jewish nation.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see those comments as racist.
Just like a "white" person may not have seen Imus's joking around as racist. Things look different from another side.

P.s. Who were you on the old GS forums?
Loreman

[Daniel]

And why can Hillary Clinton not now these things...?
...because she is white?

That is what he is saying isn't it?

He did not talk about economic status or educational differences between Barak and Hillary.

He talked about race difference.



Because Hillary Clinton has lived an exceptional life of privledge? His comments were directed to the notion that was being put forth by the Clinton campaign that as a woman she has had to endure the same hardship and injustices as a black man.

Which is of course false. It's a comment that is taken out of context and still does not specifically target whites.

EVEN IF, we make that jump and infer that he was making the leap that he is referring to all whites; is it not true that up until a generation ago blacks were systematically marginalized in American society while whites were not?

Is it not true that blacks still are struggling to deal with that reality and in general have less success in America?

So, how then can you take that comment as nothing more than reality? He's not saying that all white people are stupid, or have little penises. He is saying that white people have privledge in America that the typical African American doesn't have.

He is saying that the Average white person has not had to hear being called a "Cracker" by someone in authority, whereas the average black person has.



Being "brown skinned" does not make one black. Ask any Arabs or Persians being oppressed in South Africa, by "blacks" about that.


Do you mean Indians? There isn't a very large population of Arabs or Persians in South Africa.



Jesus was Jewish. Jews are one of the Semitic peoples from southwestern Asia. They are not "blacks" from Africa. Why does Wright take his status as being from the Jews away? That is racist.


You do realize that some "Jews" are dark skinned, correct?




<kidding around>
Now a case could be made that Jesus's father did not stick around, raise Jesus or pay child support, but I doubt Mary's baby-daddy was a "black" man.
</kidding>

From the stories they did keep the fact that she was pregnant from others until she and Joseph married, but upon the birth of a "black" child the whole community would likely have stoned both of them. It would definately have been mentioned by at least one writer if Jesus was a different race then the rest of the jewish nation.

Just like a "white" person may not have seen Imus's joking around as racist. Things look different from another side.

Loreman

That assumes alot. Namely that there wasn't alot of dark skinned people in modern day Palestine, which would be false.

It also assumes that Jews were not darker skinned than they are now.

Even so, I don't see how this is "racist". Moreso that it is religious license. If we defined this as racist then we'd have to label a lot more things as racist.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I didn't realize that someone being influential in your life meant you had to agree with all of their stances, even the crazy ones.

Exactly. It's just a smear campaign. Judge Obama by his actions and his own words, ditto with Clinton.

My Dad's best friend is from Beruit and is the most hateful racist person I've ever met (like Jerry Springer crazy). Doesn't mean my Dad couldn't run for President.

[Mabus]

EVEN IF, we make that jump and infer that he was making the leap that he is referring to all whites; is it not true that up until a generation ago blacks were systematically marginalized in American society while whites were not?.
Tell that to all the "whites" that were marginalized because of their birth-status. The Irish come to mind. Many cities banned Irish people, and signs of "No Irish" were hung at many stores.

But since they were "white" I guess there marginalization and oppression do not matter to you?


Is it not true that blacks still are struggling to deal with that reality and in general have less success in America?
Many people are struggling in this country, of all races. I would bet that by total number there are more struggling "whites" then "blacks".

I could make something up like "If they didn't have higher priorities on sports, fashion, and "acting hard" than on education, self-respect, and self-improvement they would be doing better."

But that would be doing exactly what Wright does; breaking a complex system down to factual inaccuracies in order to affect an audience. (by the way, that was a Bill Cosby quote)


He is saying that the Average white person
Average? Is that another word for "typical"?

Comments that overgeneralize about a specific race can be seen as racist. You know that, right?

[Daniel]

Tell that to all the "whites" that were marginalized because of their birth-status. The Irish come to mind. Many cities banned Irish people, and signs of "No Irish" were hung at many stores.

But since they were "white" I guess there marginalization and oppression do not matter to you?



Actually, it does matter to me. However, within the course of this argument we are talking about America, TODAY.

My grandmother used to tell me what it was like to be a German immigrant in America during the 1940's. However, she would never tell me that in a way to say that people dealt with as much as Black people today.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The point is STILL that Hillary Clinton has lived a life of privledge and can't rightfully claim that she knows what it's like to be marginalized.



Many people are struggling in this country, of all races. I would bet that by total number there are more struggling "whites" then "blacks".


No doubt due to their numerical superiority in America.



I could make something up like "If they didn't have higher priorities on sports, fashion, and "acting hard" than on education, self-respect, and self-improvement they would be doing better."

But that would be doing exactly what Wright does; breaking a complex system down to factual inaccuracies in order to affect an audience. (by the way, that was a Bill Cosby quote)


Except that's not what Wright was doing.




Average? Is that another word for "typical"?

Comments that overgeneralize about a specific race can be seen as racist. You know that, right?


No. It's a statisical word implying average, meaning that there are those to the right and left but the middle is at one point.

You also realize that for a comment to be racist it has to be A) Negative and B) not rooted in some sort of objective fact?

It's not racist to say that on average Germans are taller than Japanese.

That's a fact, because you can objectively measure height and come to that conclusion. *note it would be wrong to say that all germans are taller than all Japanese.

It is racist to say that Germans are smarter than Japanese because there is no objective measure of the word "Smart".

See the difference?

[Mabus]

Judge Obama by his actions and his own words, ditto with Clinton.
Then let's look at his actions:
"Obama said, "So one Sunday, I put on one of the few clean jackets I had, and went over to Trinity United Church of Christ on 95th Street on the South Side of Chicago. And I heard Reverend Jeremiah A. Wright deliver a sermon called "The Audacity of Hope." And during the course of that sermon, he introduced me to someone named Jesus Christ."

He was married by Wright. His book title is from one of Wright's sermons. He was "saved" because of a sermon of Wright's. Wright was his campaign "spiritual advisor".

Wright is an issue in this campaign. Wright's involvement is only a "smear" because of what he has said publicly. That fault is his own.

Obama wanted to get into politics, so he joined a large church in his area. Nothing wrong with that. Political opportunism is certainly not a sin, but his hunger for power fed his decision. The whole "new politics" is a nice sound bite, but he is old school politics at its best.

If you think this is a "smear" now, wait till the 527's "Swift Boat" him with Wright commericals in the fall.

[CrystalTears]

I didn't realize that someone being influential in your life meant you had to agree with all of their stances, even the crazy ones.
QFT

The people who didn't like Obama from the start are pretty much the only ones who have issues with something his pastor said in his congregation, among his peers, that they are interpreting far worse than it is.

[Mabus]

It is racist to say that Germans are smarter than Japanese because there is no objective measure of the word "Smart".

See the difference?

Sure!

So you are saying that when Wright said:
"Hillary ain't had to work twice as hard just to get accepted by the rich white folk who run everything, or to get a passing grade when you know you are smarter than their C-students sitting in the White House. "

That he was being racist, because:
a) White people do not run everything. (an outright lie)
b) "Smarter" has no objective measure between the unknown "you" and the unknown "C-students". (no objective measure)

Thank you for pointing that out!

[Daniel]

An outright lie? Are you serious?

You are aware that if Obama wins the nomination that he would be the *first* *ever* black person or non white person to be on a presidential ticket?

You do realize that white people are disproportionately represented at the top of almost all public and private institutions in America?

I'm just checking.



b) "Smarter" has no objective measure between the unknown "you" and the unknown "C-students". (no objective measure)

I'm sure C students everywhere are rightfully offended.

[Mabus]

An outright lie? Are you serious?
Yes, I am serious.

Are you stating you believe that "rich white folk ... run everything"?

Everything? Not just the presidency. Not just Walmart. Everything.

Would you prefer "untruth", "misstatement", "exaggeration" or another term instead of what it is, a "lie"?

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Actually, rich white folk don't run everything. The Jews do.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Actually, rich white folk don't run everything. The Jews do.

I like where this is going.

Who run bartertown?!

[Mabus]

Actually, rich white folk don't run everything. The Jews do.
But they are "brown skinned"...
..so "blacks" run everything....

Oh my gawds!

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Jews? Brown skin? More like a mixture of olive and pale yellow.

[Daniel]

Yes, I am serious.

Are you stating you believe that "rich white folk ... run everything"?

Everything? Not just the presidency. Not just Walmart. Everything.

Would you prefer "untruth", "misstatement", "exaggeration" or another term instead of what it is, a "lie"?

I'm stating that rich white folk pretty heavily influence the way this country runs.

I'm pretty sure I was clear on where I was coming from with that.

Last time I checked, a sermon wasn't a social science research paper.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

The only thing "rich" white folk seem to really influence is which college their children get into. The power of generic rich white guy #2 is likely much less than you'd imagine... it's the position of employment, or general contacts that hold the power... not the money.

[Daniel]

Go back to point of demographics of authority positions in America like 3 posts back.

[Mabus]

You are aware that if Obama wins the nomination that he would be the *first* *ever* black person or non white person to be on a presidential ticket?

Wrong.

Lenora Fulani. 1988. On the ballot in all 50 states. An African American, and a woman.

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Pwnt I say. Pwnt.

[Clove]

Wrong.

Lenora Fulani. 1988. On the ballot in all 50 states. An African American, and a woman.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but will the Green Party's candidate be on the Presidential ballot?

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

Considering Fulani got on the bill under a party with nowhere near the resources, or general popularity as the Green Party, I wouldn't doubt their candidate, whoever that may be, getting on the bill as soon as 2012.

[Parkbandit]

QFT

The people who didn't like Obama from the start are pretty much the only ones who have issues with something his pastor said in his congregation, among his peers, that they are interpreting far worse than it is.

Pretty much incorrect in my case. I had no reason to dislike Obama before this came to light.. since I knew almost nothing about him. And this doesn't make me like him less.. it simply makes me question his judgment.

[Clove]

I think Daniel has been trying to point out that white males do run the country as they have most of the power and minorities and women are disproportionately represented. Of course the majority (whites) would STILL have the most power even if minorities WERE proportionately represented. Which means "Whites run the country" will pretty much be true as long as they are a substantial majority (with or without racism).

The system of power in this country isn't fair to women and minorities (sexist and racist) because of the disproportionate representation- HOWEVER that doesn't mean that minorities are powerless in it, don't participate in our country's leadership and don't have a voice that is heard, which is what I feel statements like "The whites in power" are meant to imply.

Once again, racism and sexism (and a lot of other isms) is still going on in the United States. The game ISN'T fair- but I think it's important to keep an honest and realistic sense of where we are. And we are NOT in the slave era of the 1700 and 1800's. We are NOT in the days of intense marginalization of the early 20th century. We are NOT in the days of segregation during Civil Rights movement. And we are NOT even where we were in the 70's and 80's.

We need to acknowledge that there is still a lot of room for change by looking at the problem as it exists today and making plans to improve things in the future. That doesn't happen by constantly invoking and reliving the injustices of the past as if they were still occuring with the same frequency and intensity as they are today.

[Clove]

Pretty much incorrect in my case. I had no reason to dislike Obama before this came to light.. since I knew almost nothing about him. And this doesn't make me like him less.. it simply makes me question his judgment.

Good point, PB you've always been pretty open minded about Democrat politicians.

[Parkbandit]

Good point, PB you've always been pretty open minded about Democrat politicians.

I'm open minded about anyone of any party actually. It just happens to be that Democrats build their platforms about hating the rich, increasing taxes, handout programs to redistribute the wealth, etc... which I do not believe in to the extent they do.

[Clove]

I'm open minded about anyone of any party actually. It just happens to be that Democrats build their platforms about hating the rich, increasing taxes, handout programs to redistribute the wealth, etc... which I do not believe in to the extent they do.

Translation: Some of my best friends are Hippies...

[Parkbandit]

Translation: Some of my best friends are Hippies...

You should check the batteries in your translator.. because that wasn't what I said.]

I'm just not as easily swayed by someone who is an exceptional public speaker.. telling me the things he thinks I want to hear.

[Mabus]

Translation: Some of my best friends are Hippies...
Patchouli-soaked vermin! Or it that culturist...?

[Peanut Butter Jelly Time]

You should check the batteries in your translator.. because that wasn't what I said.]

I'm just not as easily swayed by someone who is an exceptional public speaker.. telling me the things he thinks I want to hear.

"Некоторые из моих самых лучших друзей будут hippies."

Looks about right to me.

[CrystalTears]

I'm just not as easily swayed by someone who is an exceptional public speaker..
An exceptional public speaker is exactly what this country needs as a leader right now. Someone who people will listen to.

... telling me the things he thinks I want to hear.
All politicians do this to get sway, so I don't see why Obama is any different. If what he says makes people stop and take notice, I'm all for that.

[Clove]

I'm open minded about anyone of any party actually. It just happens to be that Democrats build their platforms about hating the rich, increasing taxes, handout programs to redistribute the wealth, etc... which I do not believe in to the extent they do.


You should check the batteries in your translator.. because that wasn't what I said.]

I'm just not as easily swayed by someone who is an exceptional public speaker.. telling me the things he thinks I want to hear.

There's nothing wrong with my translator.

You say you're open minded to all candidates but its the platform that Democrats run on that loses your support. Yet for the past several days you haven't been criticizing Obama's platform. You've been criticizing his association with his contriversial pastor.

[Gan]

QFT

The people who didn't like Obama from the start are pretty much the only ones who have issues with something his pastor said in his congregation, among his peers, that they are interpreting far worse than it is.

I have to disagree with this.

I genuinely like Obama for the leadership qualities he presents. He's a great speaker, and for the most part - he's kept his people in check.

Yet I have issues with the whole Rev. Wright issue.

I have an issue that at first Obama said he never heard any of the 'inflammatory' sermons. Then when a reporter outed the fact that he witnessed Obama in the congregation during the God Damn America? sermon, Obama retracted the statement (more like clarified actually) to say he never heard Rev. Wright utter any racial epitaphs in private or public. Transparency, its a powerful platform issue he's adopted - yet he was not so transparent here.

I also have an issue with the fact of any politics being preached from the pulpit. Its a church, not a town hall meeting. There are benefits of being part of the seperation of church and state. You cant pretend to be one and act like another, IMO.

Because of this association, which has lasted more than 20 years. Because of the type of association, where Rev. Wright is represented as a 'leader' to his congregation AND to Obama; exactly how influential has Wright been on Obama, and how receptive has Obama been with Wright's viewpoints. It would be easily dismissed if Obama had a longer track record as a Senator, then his track record would be better laid out for those of us with concerns to consider and feel more at ease.

And the only racist remark I've seen thus far is the crack where he blamed AIDS on the white man creating it to strike down further the black man.

Pretty much all his other rhetoric is based on historical precedence and or perception of whats happening now. A perception I view as narrowminded and not representative of the nation as a whole.

[Clove]

Pretty much all his other rhetoric is based on historical precedence and or perception of whats happening now. A perception I view as narrowminded and not representative of the nation as a whole.

As far as I'm concerned Obama has the right to associate with whomever he chooses along with any American from President to private citizen. Unless I see a racist trend in Obama's words and actions I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I believe guilt by association is wrong.

That being said, Obama ought to be criticized for his tap-dancing over the issue. He really ought to have been transparent. Now before this becomes a damning nail in his coffin please find me a politician at that level who doesn't tapdance and wriggle and lie and play word games when faced with a public scandal. For that matter find me a politician that doesn't face a public scandal (just or unjust).

Neither the Wright sermons, nor Obama's response to it are issues with me.

[CrystalTears]

I have to disagree with this.
Well I didn't say everyone! :tongue:


I have an issue that at first Obama said he never heard any of the 'inflammatory' sermons. Then when a reporter outed the fact that he witnessed Obama in the congregation during the God Damn America? sermon, Obama retracted the statement (more like clarified actually) to say he never heard Rev. Wright utter any racial epitaphs in private or public. Transparency, its a powerful platform issue he's adopted - yet he was not so transparent here.
I'm sure I'll get shit for this, but maybe Obama didn't think much of it when it was said. Was Obama standing and yelling AMEN! when it was said, or was he just sitting there? Even if he was, is it so wrong to believe that America has fucked up on certain issues and that people still resent America for it? Obama hasn't preached in such a way, so I don't hold this against him, unless he's like Clove said earlier, a sleeper and just waiting to gain the presidency in order to expose his true self, and I find that unlikely.


Because of this association, which has lasted more than 20 years. Because of the type of association, where Rev. Wright is represented as a 'leader' to his congregation AND to Obama; exactly how influential has Wright been on Obama, and how receptive has Obama been with Wright's viewpoints. It would be easily dismissed if Obama had a longer track record as a Senator, then his track record would be better laid out for those of us with concerns to consider and feel more at ease.
My mother is a great woman, but she had some pretty fucked up views as she was bringing me up, and they didn't influence me enough to follow her beliefs, but I still admire and respect her. Couldn't this be the same situation?

Had Obama said, "Yeah he said those things, so what? Y'all are blowing this out of proportion.", would this honestly have worked better for him? Or was him diffusing the situation by separating himself politically from his pastor just a wise political move? I certainly don't blame him.


And the only racist remark I've seen thus far is the crack where he blamed AIDS on the white man creating it to strike down further the black man.
And you think that this one comment that you're against is worth the aggravation Obama is getting about something someone else said?


Pretty much all his other rhetoric is based on historical precedence and or perception of whats happening now. A perception I view as narrowminded and not representative of the nation as a whole.
Granted, it doesn't help the situation by having people preach this and encouraging these feelings within people. I just don't believe it's representative of how Obama truly is.

[Daniel]

Wrong.

Lenora Fulani. 1988. On the ballot in all 50 states. An African American, and a woman.

Yea. My bad. Allow me to clarify, on the ticket of a party that had a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

Point: You?

[Daniel]

Once again, racism and sexism (and a lot of other isms) is still going on in the United States. The game ISN'T fair- but I think it's important to keep an honest and realistic sense of where we are. And we are NOT in the slave era of the 1700 and 1800's. We are NOT in the days of intense marginalization of the early 20th century. We are NOT in the days of segregation during Civil Rights movement. And we are NOT even where we were in the 70's and 80's.

.


I think that's absolutely true. I can never understand what it was like to grow up on a plantation or in the Jim Crow era. I just take exception to statements that make it seem like things aren't as they are.

[DeV]

As far as I'm concerned Obama has the right to associate with whomever he chooses along with any American from President to private citizen. Unless I see a racist trend in Obama's words and actions I believe he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I believe guilt by association is wrong.


Agreed

[Gan]

Well I didn't say everyone! :tongue:
keke



I'm sure I'll get shit for this, but maybe Obama didn't think much of it when it was said. Was Obama standing and yelling AMEN! when it was said, or was he just sitting there? Even if he was, is it so wrong to believe that America has fucked up on certain issues and that people still resent America for it? Obama hasn't preached in such a way, so I don't hold this against him, unless he's like Clove said earlier, a sleeper and just waiting to gain the presidency in order to expose his true self, and I find that unlikely.
I find it unlikely too. However, its important that these questions be asked now, rather than later. The only stupid question is one thats not asked.



My mother is a great woman, but she had some pretty fucked up views as she was bringing me up, and they didn't influence me enough to follow her beliefs, but I still admire and respect her. Couldn't this be the same situation?
Thats where I mentioned that if we had more of a history to review with Obama. If he was a senior Senator with years of voting and service history to review - this would all be a moot point as the history would bear out the truth of actions over words.


Had Obama said, "Yeah he said those things, so what? Y'all are blowing this out of proportion.", would this honestly have worked better for him? Or was him diffusing the situation by separating himself politically from his pastor just a wise political move? I certainly don't blame him.
I think seperating himself from Wright's sermons was a wise move IMO. I'm just not sure if others will be satisfied with that degree of seperation.



And you think that this one comment that you're against is worth the aggravation Obama is getting about something someone else said?
Actually, I think it just gives his political opponents ammo to use against him in some way (as Hillary is doing now). Its created unnecessary press and unnecessary concern amongst the voters not to mention its given Hillary a chance to hide her faults behind it.

My primary problem with Obama are the policies he's endorsing as his platform. I'm not quite satisfied with his concept of 'pay go'. However, my unease of politicians in general to follow through on campaign promises, because we know that ALL politicians lie, leads me to believe that if his promises were not kept - there would be a greater detriment to our society than if promises from the GOP side were not kept.



Granted, it doesn't help the situation by having people preach this and encouraging these feelings within people. I just don't believe it's representative of how Obama truly is.
I sincerely hope it doesnt. I would love to see a world where race is not a factor and people make value judgements on other people based on actions - not appearances.

[Gan]

I just take exception to statements that make it seem like things aren't as they are.

In as much the same way as I take exception to statements that make it seem like things are as they were. ;)

[Daniel]

True. However, I'd draw the line at saying that a noose doesn't imply any sort of racism or that a 7 to 1 sentencing disparity is because blacks commit 7 times more crimes.

[Gan]

True. However, I'd draw the line at saying that a noose doesn't imply any sort of racism or that a 7 to 1 sentencing disparity is because blacks commit 7 times more crimes.

And you have the right to that opinion. Just as others have the right not to agree with that opinion.

[Clove]

I find it unlikely too. However, its important that these questions be asked now, rather than later. The only stupid question is one thats not asked.There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

My primary problem with Obama are the policies he's endorsing as his platform. I'm not quite satisfied with his concept of 'pay go'. However, my unease of politicians in general to follow through on campaign promises, because we know that ALL politicians lie, leads me to believe that if his promises were not kept - there would be a greater detriment to our society than if promises from the GOP side were not kept.Which is exactly why I denounce all this discussion about what Wright said in his sermons. I believe responsible voters need to be focused on, and discussing the candidates platforms. What will Obama, Hillary, or McCain do if elected. Beside that we need to focus on their ability to be a good "face of the Nation" to the world and some could argue that associations effect that potential, but I really doubt the world is as concerned with Wright's speeches as the American media and pundits are.

[Daniel]

And you have the right to that opinion. Just as others have the right not to agree with that opinion.


Lol. No comment.

[Gan]

Which is exactly why I denounce all this discussion about what Wright said in his sermons. I believe responsible voters need to be focused on, and discussing the candidates platforms. What will Obama, Hillary, or McCain do if elected. Beside that we need to focus on their ability to be a good "face of the Nation" to the world and some could argue that associations effect that potential, but I really doubt the world is as concerned with Wright's speeches as the American media and pundits are.

I do not denounce it. Discussion of any sort - even if its not totally objective, should never be supressed. Some legitimate questions have been raised and its important to see how Obama responds. If he can not handle the heat or pressure at this time - what makes you think he can handle the oval office?

[Gan]

Lol. No comment.

LOL good.

[Clove]

I do not denounce it. Discussion of any sort - even if its not totally objective, should never be supressed. Some legitimate questions have been raised and its important to see how Obama responds. If he can not handle the heat or pressure at this time - what makes you think he can handle the oval office?Discourse and focus are separate issues. This has become a focal point of discussion that has sidelined the more (if not most) important discussion; platform and policy. So, yeah, when it blows up to this level, I denounce the discussion as being distracting from the more important ones.

[Keller]

Good point, PB you've always been pretty open minded about Democrat politicians.

Come on Clove. He's already stated that he doesn't have an agenda for what he posts. Let's take him at his word and ignore the last 5 years of posts.

[Parkbandit]

An exceptional public speaker is exactly what this country needs as a leader right now. Someone who people will listen to.

All politicians do this to get sway, so I don't see why Obama is any different. If what he says makes people stop and take notice, I'm all for that.

But, as a former semi-conservative.. what is it in Obama's platform that you agree with. Is there anything that you disagree with?

Following a politician BECAUSE he is a good public speaker is a bad idea.. if you aren't actually listening to what he is saying.

[Daniel]

You know, for all the talk about the democrats splitting up over Obama and Clinton the R team seems to be shaken up abit.

Former Semi conservative? Ouch.

[Gan]

Discourse and focus are separate issues. This has become a focal point of discussion that has sidelined the more (if not most) important discussion; platform and policy. So, yeah, when it blows up to this level, I denounce the discussion as being distracting from the more important ones.

Whats important to you may not necessarily be important to someone else... and vice versa.

Now you're falling into the trap of limiting discussion and debate based on your perception of importance.

[Gan]

You know, for all the talk about the democrats splitting up over Obama and Clinton the R team seems to be shaken up abit.

Former Semi conservative? Ouch.

Shaken up how?

[Mabus]

Following a politician BECAUSE he is a good public speaker is a bad idea.. if you aren't actually listening to what he is saying.
Agreed.

History has presented a host of charismatic and powerful speakers that made terrible leaders of nations.

[Daniel]

Shaken up how?

I repeat: Former Semi conservative? Ouch.

[Gan]

Agreed.

History has presented a host of charismatic and powerful speakers that made terrible leaders of nations.

I feel a Godwin's law coming on.

[Gan]

I repeat: Former Semi conservative? Ouch.

LOL

Point taken.

[Clove]

You know, for all the talk about the democrats splitting up over Obama and Clinton the R team seems to be shaken up abit.

Former Semi conservative? Ouch.

I'd like the D-Team to remember that next time one of you is tempted to spout off how we're always cheerleading each other.

[Parkbandit]

True. However, I'd draw the line at saying that a noose doesn't imply any sort of racism or that a 7 to 1 sentencing disparity is because blacks commit 7 times more crimes.

Just as I take exception to you implying that the 7-1 disparity is the fault of a racist judicial system.

[Parkbandit]

You know, for all the talk about the democrats splitting up over Obama and Clinton the R team seems to be shaken up abit.

Former Semi conservative? Ouch.


Why is that considered a slam? I'm not a tried and true conservative.. I doubt many on this forum are. I'm a true fiscal conservative.. but far from a social conservative.

[Daniel]

I'd like the D-Team to remember that next time one of you is tempted to spout off how we're always cheerleading each other.

There's a first for everything and rest assured it's been properly noted.

[Daniel]

Just as I take exception to you implying that the 7-1 disparity is the fault of a racist judicial system.

Yea.

We know: There is no racism in America.

Check.

[CrystalTears]

But, as a former semi-conservative.. what is it in Obama's platform that you agree with. Is there anything that you disagree with?
I disagree with a few aspects of his platform. For that matter I disagree with a few aspects of McCain's platform. I disagree with both of their Iraq solutions. I'm 50/50 at the moment with those two so I'm looking forward to not seeing Hillary in the picture and actually being able to pick one of the two I like, rather than choosing the one who's not Hillary.


Following a politician BECAUSE he is a good public speaker is a bad idea.. if you aren't actually listening to what he is saying.
I never said to vote for him strictly for being a good speaker. I'm saying that all things being equal, I'll take the guy that I disagree with but can negotiate and talk, to the person that I disagree with and can't stand to listen to.

[Clove]

Whats important to you may not necessarily be important to someone else... and vice versa.

Now you're falling into the trap of limiting discussion and debate based on your perception of importance.Of course everyone has their own opinion on what a should be a priority, but you don't really believe that a candidate's platform shouldn't be the first topic of discussion? I mean that's what we're electing them for isn't it? Are we electing them for the individuals they know, or for the policies and ideas they propose to enact? Are we electing them for their leadership qualities, or the church they attend?

Maybe the American public really IS less concerned about platforms. Maybe Madison Avenue has finally arrived at its goal.

[Keller]

But, as a former semi-conservative..

What.

The.

Fuck.

Because she doesn't buy into your "OMG HE R RACIST" mantra now she's a former semi-conservative?

Consult a neurologist. You're getting more rabid with each passing day. Have that checked out.

[Keller]

I'd like the D-Team to remember that next time one of you is tempted to spout off how we're always cheerleading each other.

I'll take it as an example of how Obama is creating an A-team out of the R and D teams.

[Gan]

Of course everyone has their own opinion on what a should be a priority, but you don't really believe that a candidate's platform shouldn't be the first topic of discussion? I mean that's what we're electing them for isn't it? Are we electing them for the individuals they know, or for the policies and ideas they propose to enact? Are we electing them for their leadership qualities, or the church they attend?

Maybe the American public really IS less concerned about platforms. Maybe Madison Avenue has finally arrived at its goal.

A candidate's platform is only as good as his ability to deliver said platform once he's in office. Platform and character are intertwined, not mutually exclusive.

And when I say character, I mean having the intergrity to push through what was promised as promised and having the ability/means to do so.

[Parkbandit]

Yea.

We know: There is no racism in America.

Check.

Yea.

We know: Every problem associated with a minority is exclusively due to racism.

Check.

See what happened there chump?

[Latrinsorm]

Tell that to all the "whites" that were marginalized because of their birth-status. The Irish come to mind. Many cities banned Irish people, and signs of "No Irish" were hung at many stores.I don't remember a governor standing in a door saying "no Irish" or declaring that allowing Irish into a state university was tantamount to genocide. Maybe you can refresh my memory.
There are benefits of being part of the seperation of church and state.Yeah, just look at how far back that Reverend King guy set the civil rights movement. ;)
Some legitimate questions have been raised and its important to see how Obama responds....didn't you watch the 40 minute long speech Obama gave in response to this whole thing?

[Daniel]

Okay.

So PB, where and how do you think Racism still exists in America?

Because I'm lik 100% certain you've said on these boards that racism is non existent. In fact, that example was one I brought up to show you that it did.

Whereas, I've never even come close to saying that.

So, essentially what you just did there was type alot of bullshit.

[Gan]

I'll take it as an example of how Obama is creating an A-team out of the R and D teams.

I wouldnt go as far as depicting Obama being the personification of the A-Team. There's a lot of insinuation in that categorization.

[Gan]

Yeah, just look at how far back that Reverend King guy set the civil rights movement. ;)...didn't you watch the 40 minute long speech Obama gave in response to this whole thing?

Words /= Action


Sorry if I dont get all weak kneed when he speaks. Now if you were directing this to Backlash, you might have found a more appropriate audience.

[Daniel]

That's nice.

[Latrinsorm]

Words /= ActionResponses can (and often do!) take the form of words, plus Fmr. Pastor Wright is no longer on Sen. Obama's campaign. If you want him to "prove" he's not racist somehow (as ridiculous as the insinuation is), you're supposing guilt until innocence is proven - which is an impossible standard to meet.

[Parkbandit]

Okay.

So PB, where and how do you think Racism still exists in America?

Because I'm lik 100% certain you've said on these boards that racism is non existent. In fact, that example was one I brought up to show you that it did.

Oh.. please post that quote where I said racism is non existent. You are so full of shit.. you are actually starting to believe your own imagination! We'll wait for this fantastic quote. Until that's produced, you don't mind if I continue to question every single thing you post.

[Keller]

Oh.. please post that quote where I said racism is non existent. You are so full of shit.. you are actually starting to believe your own imagination! We'll wait for this fantastic quote. Until that's produced, you don't mind if I continue to question every single thing you post.

He's got the ellusiveness of Barry Sanders. Answer a fucking question. For once.

[Daniel]

Oh.. please post that quote where I said racism is non existent. You are so full of shit.. you are actually starting to believe your own imagination! We'll wait for this fantastic quote. Until that's produced, you don't mind if I continue to question every single thing you post.

Sure..




I never said Racism can only happen if you are black. I said that as an African American citizen of America than you have to deal with the legacy and effects of racism as an endemic part of your life. Whereas, you do not have to do so if you are Caucasian.


It's so funny how people tread water so lightly when it comes to racism. "Hey, I think this.... but don't construe me as a racist" We've become so politically correct that we can't even discuss it without sugar coating it. Thankfully, I've never been one to sugar coat it. Believe what you will towards me... this is the internet.

Daniel. How long do you think you can use the excuse of slavery to explain the double standard in America today? Slavery 'ended' in 1865. Today is 2007. Do you think by 2065, we can then discuss the issues facing black americans today... things like unemployement, gangs, single parents, HIV, etc... without blaming it on slavery?

If Imus was black, and made an even worse disparaging comment towards a predominately white team.. we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be zero press about it. We wouldn't have David Duke demanding that he be fired or that the advertisers take their business elsewhere.

It's only racism in America when it's a white person is playing the role of perpetrator.


The simple fact of the matter PB is that there is still institutional racism in America today and the effects of Slavery are still being felt today. It's almost laughable that you start your countdown at the point when "Slavery" was abolished and completely ignore the next 90 something years where African Americans were still legally denied equal treatment.

If you think that the disparaties that were created over 400 years have completely dissipated in those 40 years than you are an idiot.

Since you want you challenge me personally, for the "Excuses" I'm making. I challenge you to find any post I have ever made that has attempted to make an excuse for anything I have ever done or accomplished in my life because of Slavery.


Now...Feel free to answer the question of where you see racism in America today.


Oh and BTW that original challenge still stands.

[Gan]

Responses can (and often do!) take the form of words, plus Fmr. Pastor Wright is no longer on Sen. Obama's campaign. If you want him to "prove" he's not racist somehow (as ridiculous as the insinuation is), you're supposing guilt until innocence is proven - which is an impossible standard to meet.

I never asked Obama to prove he wasnt racist. I merely want more information than what we currently have historically. I want assurances that Obama does not perscribe to the wierd side of what Wright has represented. Sorry if I just dont take the words of a politician at face value. Especially when politicians have multiple faces as a nature of the game they play.

[Clove]

And when I say character, I mean having the intergrity to push through what was promised as promised and having the ability/means to do so.

Granted. Good luck finding a practical and accurate test for character, though (other than his track history). I don't believe his associatations speaks to his ability to promote policy. His legislative record at the State and National level does though.

[Clove]

I'll take it as an example of how Obama is creating an A-team out of the R and D teams.

Really we should stop debating which Democrat candidate is better/worse. This is going to drag out until one candidate wins a pyrrhic victory and it'll be McCain in 2008! w00t.

I think I heard one of the panelist on Bill Maher this weekend say, "If there's one thing the Democrats know how to do, it's lose an election." QFT.

[TheEschaton]

Really we should stop debating which Democrat candidate is better/worse. This is going to drag out until one candidate wins a pyrrhic victory and it'll be McCain in 2008! w00t.

I think I heard one of the panelist on Bill Maher this weekend say, "If there's one thing the Democrats know how to do, it's lose an election." QFT.

If this is true... (http://www.airfrance.us/cgi-bin/AF/US/en/local/resainfovol/achat/MiniBeVpAction.do)

[Parkbandit]

Because I'm lik 100% certain you've said on these boards that racism is non existent. In fact, that example was one I brought up to show you that it did.


Still waiting for the quote from me saying racism is non existent. If you are 100% certain that I posted that, I'm 100% certain that it should be extremely easy to post the quote. Don't post any quotes of me where you misconstrue my statements into what you want to think.. post an actual quote of me saying that racism is non existent.

If you are unable to produce such a quote.. feel free to apologize for being a dumbfuck and then I'll answer any stupid question you may have.

[Parkbandit]

If this is true... (http://www.airfrance.us/cgi-bin/AF/US/en/local/resainfovol/achat/MiniBeVpAction.do)

:rofl:

How's your French lessons coming along? Just another reason for me to vote for McCain-D.

[Daniel]

Still waiting for the quote from me saying racism is non existent. If you are 100% certain that I posted that, I'm 100% certain that it should be extremely easy to post the quote. Don't post any quotes of me where you misconstrue my statements into what you want to think.. post an actual quote of me saying that racism is non existent.

If you are unable to produce such a quote.. feel free to apologize for being a dumbfuck and then I'll answer any stupid question you may have.

I think it's pretty well documented that you think Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are racist.

The point, which those comments show, is that you don't believe that there is A)Institutionalized racism in America and B) That there is no racism period in America for minorities.

Feel free to challenge those assertations with examples of what type of racism you believe exists in America today.

[Clove]

Speaking to those who are interested in candidate's records:

Hillary:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?id=300022
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_Clinton#First_Lady_of_the_United_St ates

McCain:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?id=300071
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_mccain#House_and_Senate_career.2C_1982.E2.80. 931999

Obama:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/person.xpd?id=400629
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obama#State_legislature

There's quite a lot of record to review for all three candidates.

[CrystalTears]

Wait, so with all of Clinton's talk of her vast foreign relations experience, she's not even on the committee?

[Stanley Burrell]

Wait, so with all of Clinton's talk of her vast foreign relations experience, she's not even on the committee?

I'd say she's probably got more foreign political experience than, say, Condi. That being said, she is a politician of the utmost embarrassing caliber DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS REPUBLICAN BAG OF TOOLS.

[Parkbandit]

I think it's pretty well documented that you think Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are racist.

The point, which those comments show, is that you don't believe that there is A)Institutionalized racism in America and B) That there is no racism period in America for minorities.

Feel free to challenge those assertations with examples of what type of racism you believe exists in America today.

Still waiting for the quote you are 100% positive I made. Not what you think I said.. not what you want to believe I said.. what I actually posted. Until then, either admit you were 100% wrong.. or just STFU.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/waiting2.jpg

[Stanley Burrell]

The second post in this thread roolz!!1one.

[Parkbandit]

I'd say she's probably got more foreign political experience than, say, Condi.


:rofl:

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

[Stanley Burrell]

:rofl:

Your ignorance knows no bounds.

You're just stubborn and opinionated like myself. High-five.

[Keller]

Still waiting for the quote you are 100% positive I made. Not what you think I said.. not what you want to believe I said.. what I actually posted. Until then, either admit you were 100% wrong.. or just STFU.



It's call reading comprehension. Taking the words someone writes and distilling them to their base meaning.

:tool:

[Parkbandit]

You're just stubborn and opinionated like myself. High-five.


:rofl:x100

I'm nothing like you.

[Gan]

I'd say she's [Hillary] probably got more foreign political experience than, say, Condi.

I know we're not supposed to take you seriously here on the boards...

but Seriously?

You're kidding right?



wow...

[TheEschaton]

ducking and running from sniper fire counts as foreign experience, doesn't it? ;)

[Clove]

I know we're not supposed to take you seriously here on the boards...Don't mind Stan, I think he got a bad batch of meth today.

[Parkbandit]

Don't mind Stan, I think he got a bad batch of meth today.

Today?

[Daniel]

Still waiting for the quote you are 100% positive I made. Not what you think I said.. not what you want to believe I said.. what I actually posted. Until then, either admit you were 100% wrong.. or just STFU.




It's call reading comprehension. Taking the words someone writes and distilling them to their base meaning.

:tool:

Essentially.

Can't answer the question PB?

[Parkbandit]

Essentially.

Can't answer the question PB?

Still can't find the quote you are 100% positive I made? Find the quote, we can play 20 questions.


http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/movieposter.jpg

[Clove]

ducking and running from sniper fire counts as foreign experience, doesn't it? ;)

Apparently even imagining it counts.

[Parkbandit]

And it has nothing to do with reading comprehension. Either I made the statement that racism is non existant or I didn't.

I'm 100% positive I didn't. Daniel is 100% positive I did. One of us is 100% positively wrong.

[TheEschaton]

And that'd be you. You basically posted a long rant on how slavery was over and that black people shouldn't bitch any more.

[Keller]

And that'd be you. You basically posted a long rant on how slavery was over and that black people shouldn't bitch any more.

Wait for it . . . .

He will respond with:
":rofl:. Where did I say that? You're living in your fantasy world. I feel sorry for the city of New York. With your intelligence, there will be a lot of criminals free on the streets because you're going to make a terrible lawyer!"

[Clove]

And that'd be you. You basically posted a long rant on how slavery was over and that black people shouldn't bitch any more.
Okay, I'll bite, when did PB basically post all that?

[CrystalTears]

And that'd be you. You basically posted a long rant on how slavery was over and that black people shouldn't bitch any more.
Saying that slavery is over and that it shouldn't be used as an excuse to not advance in this country is not the same thing as saying that racism does not exist.

[Stanley Burrell]

Don't mind Stan, I think he got a bad batch of meth today.

I think the effect of any stimulant stronger than caffeine would have irreversible effects on me.

Please don't spike my punch with adrenacrome, no matter how much you hate me, kthnx.

[TheEschaton]

Daniel posted it on page 16. I post it again for your own edification:



It's so funny how people tread water so lightly when it comes to racism. "Hey, I think this.... but don't construe me as a racist" We've become so politically correct that we can't even discuss it without sugar coating it. Thankfully, I've never been one to sugar coat it. Believe what you will towards me... this is the internet.

Daniel. How long do you think you can use the excuse of slavery to explain the double standard in America today? Slavery 'ended' in 1865. Today is 2007. Do you think by 2065, we can then discuss the issues facing black americans today... things like unemployement, gangs, single parents, HIV, etc... without blaming it on slavery?

If Imus was black, and made an even worse disparaging comment towards a predominately white team.. we wouldn't even be having this discussion because there would be zero press about it. We wouldn't have David Duke demanding that he be fired or that the advertisers take their business elsewhere.

It's only racism in America when it's a white person is playing the role of perpetrator.

[Parkbandit]

And that'd be you. You basically posted a long rant on how slavery was over and that black people shouldn't bitch any more.

And you somehow construe that into me saying that racism is non-existant?

Are you 100% positive about that?

[Stanley Burrell]

You're kidding right?

Mostly yes. My only voice of dissent is her recognition in the Mideast, but I place that on other administrative figure's shoulders, not hers particularly.

[Gan]

Daniel posted it on page 16. I post it again for your own edification:

Do you shake it 2 or 3 times when he's done taking a piss?

[Keller]

Do you shake it 2 or 3 times when he's done taking a piss?

Stop being a dick.

Clove asked. TheE re-posted.

[Gan]

Stop being a dick.

Clove asked. TheE re-posted.

LOL

Yea, that was a cheap shot.

[Clove]

And you somehow construe that into me saying that racism is non-existant?

Are you 100% positive about that?

I don't get that either.

[Daniel]

Saying that slavery is over and that it shouldn't be used as an excuse to not advance in this country is not the same thing as saying that racism does not exist.

Except..that was pulled out in a discussion on racism in America.

[Daniel]

And you somehow construe that into me saying that racism is non-existant?

Are you 100% positive about that?

Well, when we're talking about the existence of racism in America and you go off on a SLAVERY ENDED 150 YEARS AGO SO STOP BITCHING rant, then Yea. I do.

Hence me posting the context.

[Daniel]

Of course, all of this could be ended real quick if PB said where he saw racism in America.

[Parkbandit]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/17_waitingroom_inv.gif

If I was 100% positive about a quote.. I'm 100% positive I could produce said quote pretty quickly.

[Parkbandit]

Of course, all of this could be ended real quick if PB said where he saw racism in America.

Once the quote you referred to is produced, then the discussion you want can continue.

Still waiting... but we know it'll be a quote you would have to make up.. don't we.

I'm 100% positive you are full of shit.

[Parkbandit]

Oh and Daniel.. you can save the "Internet r serious business" pic you always seem to post when proven wrong. I'll wait for the quote or a simple apology.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And that'd be you. You basically posted a long rant on how slavery was over and that black people shouldn't bitch any more.

Slavery isn't over?

[BigWorm]

I feel a Godwin's law coming on.

Not exactly that, but this made me think of a quote I heard on Democracy Now! the other day. This is from what Sen. Robert Byrd said before voting yes to authorize the use of force in Iraq:


My hands tremble, but my heart still throbs. I read this quote: “Naturally, the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.” Hermann Goering, president of Reichstag, Nazi Parliament, 1934.

It worries me that this is so applicable in our current "if you're not for us, you're against us" political climate that it is eerie.

I know this has little to do with the original topic, but neither do the last 100 posts.

[Daniel]

Oh and Daniel.. you can save the "Internet r serious business" pic you always seem to post when proven wrong. I'll wait for the quote or a simple apology.

Lol. I don't know how much more explicitly you want it laid out.

You're like a little kid with his fingers in his ears.

lalalalallala

[Daniel]

Slavery isn't over?

Thanks for missing the point Genius.

[Parkbandit]

Not exactly that, but this made me think of a quote I heard on Democracy Now! the other day. This is from what Sen. Robert Byrd said before voting yes to authorize the use of force in Iraq:



It worries me that this is so applicable in our current "if you're not for us, you're against us" political climate that it is eerie.

I know this has little to do with the original topic, but neither do the last 100 posts.

Hitler was a very eloquent and engaging speaker.. he was able to get people to buy into many of his ideas through the power of the spoken word.

I agree... it's a little eerie.

[Parkbandit]

Lol. I don't know how much more explicitly you want it laid out.

You're like a little kid with his fingers in his ears.

lalalalallala


You said you were 100% positive I posted that racism was "non existant". You've yet to produce such a post of mine.

It has nothing to do with me currently.. as you've yet to post anything close to this claim. I'm still waiting on you.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Thanks for missing the point Genius.

So sorry massa, please proceed with your bitching about racism.

Maybe you can post up some QQ about how hard it was for you growing up in the Ghetto or Hyde park or wherever it was that was so rough on you that you hate whitey!

I'll get my cracker ass back to seeing how I can oppress the common man. I wonder if you realize how much of a racist YOU are.

And PS, hypocrite -- again, who is trolling whom?

[Gan]

And there you go.

This thread has officially been Godwin'd.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/3strangedays/flatline2.jpg

[Daniel]

So sorry massa, please proceed with your bitching about racism.

Maybe you can post up some QQ about how hard it was for you growing up in the Ghetto or Hyde park or wherever it was that was so rough on you that you hate whitey!

I'll get my cracker ass back to seeing how I can oppress the common man. I wonder if you realize how much of a racist YOU are.

And PS, hypocrite -- again, who is trolling whom?

I'm a racist because I point out Racism in America or because I call you a vagina?

[Clove]

And there you go.

This thread has officially been Godwin'd.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i3/3strangedays/flatline2.jpg

http://www.badmovies.org/tvshows/startrek/mccoy.jpg

[Daniel]

You said you were 100% positive I posted that racism was "non existant". You've yet to produce such a post of mine.

It has nothing to do with me currently.. as you've yet to post anything close to this claim. I'm still waiting on you.

As if you'd ever own up to it anyway. You immediately backtracked on your comments in that very thread.

Obviously, in a discussion about racism, when a person says that black people should stop bitching about slavery and realize that it has been over for 150 years he is not implying that there are no legitimate complaints about racism in America

[Parkbandit]

As if you'd ever own up to it anyway. You immediately backtracked on your comments in that very thread.

Obviously, in a discussion about racism, when a person says that black people should stop bitching about slavery and realize that it has been over for 150 years he is not implying that there are no legitimate complaints about racism in America


And you read "Racism is non existant" from those words? Maybe I am to blame.. being white... I've obviously kept you away from a good education.

The only backtracking here is you. Clearly I've never ever posted that racism is non existant.. so the typical thing here to do would be to apologize for being wrong and just stupid.. and then we can move forward.

[BigWorm]

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

Hitler was a very eloquent and engaging speaker.. he was able to get people to buy into many of his ideas through the power of the spoken word.
Yeah, because that's totally what the liberals are doing, not what the conservatives are doing.

Hitler wasn't even mentioned in the quote that I posted.

Besides, Byrd (and the rest of the Dems, except Russ Feingold) is a pussy for voting yes despite his objections and ability to see the war for what it was.

[Daniel]

And you read "Racism is non existant" from those words? Maybe I am to blame.. being white... I've obviously kept you away from a good education.

The only backtracking here is you. Clearly I've never ever posted that racism is non existant.. so the typical thing here to do would be to apologize for being wrong and just stupid.. and then we can move forward.

And yet..You still can't answer the question.

Good job.

[Clove]

I blame this thread on Rove.

[Parkbandit]

And yet..You still can't answer the question.

Good job.

I said.. I'll be more than happy to answer any stupid question you have once you produce the quote you were 100% positive I posted. So far, you are only looking like someone who was talking out his ass (as usual) and got caught in a Hillary type lie.

Produce the quote? If you can't produce it.. just say you fucked up. It's pretty simple. It's been 5 hours of you posting nothing but excuses... but still no quote.

[Sean]

This thread is so far off track it's not even funny. What was the original claim again? That PB agree with Hillary that Obama should have quit the church he's been a member of for 20 or so years because of the remarks of the pastor?

[Nieninque]

This thread is so far off track it's not even funny. What was the original claim again? That PB agree with Hillary that Obama should have quit the church he's been a member of for 20 or so years because of the remarks of the pastor?

Dont confuse the situation

[Parkbandit]

This thread is so far off track it's not even funny. What was the original claim again? That PB agree with Hillary that Obama should have quit the church he's been a member of for 20 or so years because of the remarks of the pastor?

I think Hillary's point was that it wouldn't have taken her 20 years to disassociate herself with this reverend... that she would have made the correct judgement at the beginning.. perhaps as early as 3am.. while ducking sniper shots.

[Mabus]

I don't remember a governor standing in a door saying "no Irish" or declaring that allowing Irish into a state university was tantamount to genocide. Maybe you can refresh my memory.
That you do not know about how several groups, including the Irish, were treated in this country's history is your own fault. The history is there to find and read.

But to "refresh" your memory, the Irish were forcibly conscripted, not allowed to vote, lynched, driven from towns by laws, shot, churches burned, termed "papists" and claims were made by many that Irish immigration was a Catholic attempt to invade and take over the USA. They were stereotyped as drunken, stupid and unwilling to work (sometimes by corporate interests to further drive down wages). Charactitures of them as beasts were often printed in newspapers.

Certainly not the only group to face discrimination in the USA, but they did face a high amount of discrimination in this country's history.

[TheEschaton]

Were they regarded as the property of other human beings at any point, and not actually people?


-TheE-

[Rolis]

I am not really into politics.. dont follow any of it but after watching this new campaign from Clinton... she has my vote.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/267484/

[Mabus]

Responses can (and often do!) take the form of words, plus Fmr. Pastor Wright is no longer on Sen. Obama's campaign. If you want him to "prove" he's not racist somehow (as ridiculous as the insinuation is), you're supposing guilt until innocence is proven - which is an impossible standard to meet.
That Wright is no longer on Obama's campaign was decided months before the current Wright story hit, when Wright told Obama he may need to "distance himself" from him during the campaign (reported Apri, 2007 NYT). This shows that Obama and Wright did know that Wright was a possible detriment to his political future.

And this was not about race until Obama tried to change the subject to race in his speech. The subject is about poor choices and core beliefs.

Obama chose to ally himself with a lying, USA-hating, racist preacher for short-term political gain in his state. Now he attempts to make it a "conversation on race".

Bullshit.

[Mabus]

Were they regarded as the property of other human beings at any point, and not actually people?

Research it.

I am not trying to say Irish discrimination =, <, or is > any other discrimination. Systemic racism and discrimination has affected more then one race in this world, and in this country.

That was the point. It came from Daniel asking:
"is it not true that up until a generation ago blacks were systematically marginalized in American society while whites were not?.".

So unless you do not consider people of Irish decent "white" I proved that the statement was not true. "White" people have been "marginalized in American society".

[Daniel]

Research it.

I am not trying to say Irish discrimination =, <, or is > any other discrimination. Systemic racism and discrimination has affected more then one race in this world, and in this country.

That was the point. It came from Daniel asking:
"is it not true that up until a generation ago blacks were systematically marginalized in American society while whites were not?.".

So unless you do not consider people of Irish decent "white" I proved that the statement was not true. "White" people have been "marginalized in American society".

So Irish Americans were marginalized a generation ago?

[Daniel]

I said.. I'll be more than happy to answer any stupid question you have once you produce the quote you were 100% positive I posted. So far, you are only looking like someone who was talking out his ass (as usual) and got caught in a Hillary type lie.

Produce the quote? If you can't produce it.. just say you fucked up. It's pretty simple. It's been 5 hours of you posting nothing but excuses... but still no quote.


Even if you weren't completely oblivious..I'd still have a long way until I got to your level of talking out my ass.

You've been posting nothing but excuses for your retarded statements for months.

[Parkbandit]

Even if you weren't completely oblivious..I'd still have a long way until I got to your level of talking out my ass.

You've been posting nothing but excuses for your retarded statements for months.


HEY LOOK KIDS! IT'S MICHAEL JACKSON DOING THE MOONWALK!

Nice backpeddling chump.

I know, I know.. teh internet r serious business.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/mowtown25moonwalk.gif

[Mabus]

So Irish Americans were marginalized a generation ago?
You said "up until", so I had to parse whether you meant that "blacks" were no longer marginalized, or whether you were asking if no others had been marginailized before that time. Since your stance is clearly that "blacks" are still marginilized I chose the second.

If you mean that blacks are no longer marginilized in US society then I will re-answer the question, if not then the answer stands and clearly shows you were incorrect.

[Daniel]

HEY LOOK KIDS! IT'S MICHAEL JACKSON DOING THE MOONWALK!

Nice backpeddling chump.

I know, I know.. teh internet r serious business.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/mowtown25moonwalk.gif

Actually, I'm standing right where I was when I asked you to state where you saw racism in today's world.

I wasn't holding my breath on you actually answering that question and I'm still not now.

[Daniel]

You said "up until", so I had to parse whether you meant that "blacks" were no longer marginalized, or whether you were asking if no others had been marginailized before that time. Since your stance is clearly that "blacks" are still marginilized I chose the second.

If you mean that blacks are no longer marginilized in US society then I will re-answer the question, if not then the answer stands and clearly shows you were incorrect.

Well, if you wanted to parse my statements you would know that I already acknowledged that other groups had been marginalized in America. In fact, I related the story of my grandmother being a german immigrant during the 1940's to that fact.

I fail to see where your assumption that I was incorrect comes from. I was talking about the present tense, and my statement was meant to imply that African Americans are only one generation away from being *systematically* marginalized. I, of course, *assumed* that a logical person would realize that the legacy of that marginalization has not dissipated, which would tie into the points I was making previously. My mistake.

[Gan]

Well, if you wanted to parse my statements you would know that I already acknowledged that other groups had been marginalized in America. In fact, I related the story of my grandmother being a german immigrant during the 1940's to that fact.

Daniel = Obama?

[Daniel]

Funny. I got told that like 3 times this weekend.

I don't see the comparison. Just tall light skinned dudes from Chicago :)

[Parkbandit]

Actually, I'm standing right where I was when I asked you to state where you saw racism in today's world.

I wasn't holding my breath on you actually answering that question and I'm still not now.

No.. you should hold your breath. Please.

Still waiting for that 100% positive quote you mentioned. How's the search going??

[Gan]

Funny. I got told that like 3 times this weekend.

I don't see the comparison. Just tall light skinned dudes from Chicago :)

You're right.

I have no idea how your grandmother story reminded me of Obama.

[Daniel]

Oh. Sorry Didn't realize you were talking about that.

I wouldn't really draw parallels there.

[Methais]

Isn't Obama half white? I don't get all the people crying racist on Obama. How can you be racist against yourself?

[Daniel]

Isn't Obama half white? I don't get all the people crying racist on Obama. How can you be racist against yourself?

Ask SHM.

[Methais]

Ask SHM.

Hey SHM, isn't Obama half white? I don't get all the people crying racist on Obama. How can you be racist against yourself?

[Gan]

Hey SHM, isn't Obama half white? I don't get all the people crying racist on Obama. How can you be racist against yourself?

I really cant stand uneducated white trash.

Color me guilty.

[Back]

I don’t agree with Hillary. I see her comments as a last parting shot as she goes down in flames. Completely unnecessary of her to even make a comment on it. Disappointing really. It’s amazing what scorned women will say or do to get pay back.

[Keller]

No.. you should hold your breath. Please.

Still waiting for that 100% positive quote you mentioned. How's the search going??

Irony: When a rabid conservative will exaggerate the "racism" of a democratic front-runner's pastor based upon a 10-second out-of-context quote but refuse to admit his own denial of institutionalized racism based on the enslavement and ensuing persecution of an entire race.

Wait, maybe I should just say: :rofl: you're a fucking idiot.

[Warriorbird]

The PC is where I go to remind myself that people that fucked up exist.

[Back]

The PC is where I go when I get really really bored and want cheap laugh.

[Mabus]

the "racism" of a democratic front-runner's pastor
It is Obama that is attempting to play 'the race card" here. It is an attempted diversion. The sermons and actions of Wright go far beyond his militant racist stances. Wright's anti-American positions and outright lies should be enough without even bringing Wright's racism into the picture.

* 1982 Wright gives "Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr. Trumpeter Award" to Louis Farrakhan, stating, "His depth on analysis when it comes to the racial ills of this nation is astounding and eye opening."

* 1984 Wright travels with Louis Farrakhan to visit with Moammar Gadhafi.

* Wright states in a sermon, "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color."

* In a sermon Wright asserts Israel is a terrorist sponsoring organization, "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians..."

* The infamous "God damn America" sermon.

* Let's look at some writings from 2007 by Wright, who was already on Obama's campaign at the time:

From Wright's Trumpet Magazine:
__________________________________________________ ____________
"From the circumstances surrounding Jesus' birth (in a barn in a township that was under the Apartheid Roman government that said his daddy had to be in), up to and including the circumstances surrounding Jesus' death on a cross, a Roman cross, public lynching Italian style."

"The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans"

"The government runs everything from the White House to the schoolhouse, from the Capitol to the Klan, white supremacy is clearly in charge"

"In a world that is controlled by white supremacy, in a country that is on its way to hell in a hand basket because of lying politicians, in a culture that still thinks 'white is right' ..."
__________________________________________________ ______________
I could go on and on, but you get the point. This is not a "couple soundbites". This is a sustained set of racist, anti-Semetic and anti-American falsehoods used to inflame hatred.

If Obama was ignorant of all of these facts when he decided to go to Wright's church, be married by Wright, be "saved" by Wright, used a Wright sermon to title his book, "Audacity of Hope", and when he put Wright on his campaign...
...then what sort of judgement does that show for Obama?

Lately Wright was on a long vacation, retired as pastor of the church and has missed a couple previously scheduled public appearances. Makes me wonder why? Not really.

Like I said before, Hillary bringing this up now is nothing compared to what the 527's will do in the fall.

Obama needs to answer for all these aspects of his "spirtual mentor" before the general election, or it will give people that are on the fence a decent rationalization for either voting against him, or not voting at all.

[Daniel]

In a sermon Wright asserts Israel is a terrorist sponsoring organization, "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians..."

This is true..




__________________________________________________ ____________


"From the circumstances surrounding Jesus' birth (in a barn in a township that was under the Apartheid Roman government that said his daddy had to be in), up to and including the circumstances surrounding Jesus' death on a cross, a Roman cross, public lynching Italian style."



Um..Isn't this in the bible? You know..the part where King Herod (A roman) runs around and kills all the first born children of Jews because he is afraid of Jesus?



"The Italians for the most part looked down their garlic noses at the Galileans"


See Above.


For those keeping score.

Wright is Racist because: He says white people run America (A fact)

He says Minorities are marginalized (A fact)

He says Israel runs apartheid against palestinians (A fact, and of course a non racist statement) Oh..You still wanna talk about Arab persecution in South Africa?

and because he says the Roman empire persecuted Jesus and his people the jews (A fact and a contradiction of the above.)

[Daniel]

Irony: When a rabid conservative will exaggerate the "racism" of a democratic front-runner's pastor based upon a 10-second out-of-context quote but refuse to admit his own denial of institutionalized racism based on the enslavement and ensuing persecution of an entire race.

Wait, maybe I should just say: :rofl: you're a fucking idiot.

:rofl:

[Mabus]

This is true..
Name the terrorism that Israel is sponsoring? Not police or military actions, terrorism.

Um..Isn't this in the bible? You know..the part where King Herod (A roman) runs around and kills all the first born children of Jews because he is afraid of Jesus?
King Herod was Jewish.

See Above.
Garlic noses? You see no problem with that? If a "white" preacher talked about a black mans "watermelon eating lips" it would not be racist then in your opinion?


For those keeping score.

Wright is Racist because: He says white people run America (A fact)
So the "white man" created AIDs to kill "colored people" ,the government runs the KKK and this is all a white supremecist conspiracy? Those were Wright's statements, not a general "the white man is keeping us down".

I say you don't get the point there.

He says Minorities are marginalized (A fact)
Did you see any quotes where I quoted Wright saying "marginalized" at all?

No points for goaltending.

He says Israel runs apartheid against palestinians (A fact, and of course a non racist statement) Oh..You still wanna talk about Arab persecution in South Africa?
Israel is trying to survive a fanatic Islamic terrorist campaign that includes suicide bombers, slayers of children, bombers of buses, kidnappers and people firing rockets into civilian neighborhoods. These fanatics call for the outright destruction of Israel and genecide of all its people. How should they react under those conditions?

Love to discuss the Israeli situation with you, both historically and moving forward, if I did not see that your bias toward Wright's and Farrakhan's beliefs did not exist.

Calling Israel a state terror sponsor is just a lie. Plain and simple.

Add to that Wright's associating with known anti-semites and his meaning itself is clearly also anti-semetic.

and because he says the Roman empire persecuted Jesus and his people the jews (A fact and a contradiction of the above.)
If you remember from earlier, Wright says Jesus was black, not Jewish. You see, if Jesus was jewish his buddy Louis would likely not have gone on a visit to Libya with him, back when Libya was supporting blowing up discos, downing airliners full of innocent people and killing handicapped people on cruise ships (as Libya was a true state sponsor of terror).

So how many points did you score?

0

[Daniel]

Name the terrorism that Israel is sponsoring? Not police or military actions, terrorism.



Extemist Jewish Settlers have been publicly backed and supported by Ariel Sharon.



King Herod was Jewish.




Reportedly. He was also a roman client who killed thousands of Jews to get @ Jesus

Garlic noses? You see no problem with that? If a "white" preacher talked about a black mans "watermelon eating lips" it would not be racist then in your opinion?


I mean. If you identify as a Roman then I say see your ire.





So the "white man" created AIDs to kill "colored people" ,the government runs the KKK and this is all a white supremecist conspiracy? Those were Wright's statements, not a general "the white man is keeping us down".

I say you don't get the point there.


Um. I'm pretty sure he has said as such. You have maybe 2 comments that say otherwise.

You can't ignore some parts and grasp on to others. I mean..you could but then again you'd be grasping at straws.



Did you see any quotes where I quoted Wright saying "marginalized" at all?

No points for goaltending.


So, you've posted all the quotes he's made on the issue?



Israel is trying to survive a fanatic Islamic terrorist campaign that includes suicide bombers, slayers of children, bombers of buses, kidnappers and people firing rockets into civilian neighborhoods. These fanatics call for the outright destruction of Israel and genecide of all its people. How should they react under those conditions?

Love to discuss the Israeli situation with you, both historically and moving forward, if I did not see that your bias toward Wright's and Farrakhan's beliefs did not exist.

Calling Israel a state terror sponsor is just a lie. Plain and simple.



Except to most Palestinian's who were forcibly removed from their homes and continue to be systematicaly denied their rights.



Add to that Wright's associating with known anti-semites and his meaning itself is clearly also anti-semetic.

If you remember from earlier, Wright says Jesus was black, not Jewish. You see, if Jesus was jewish his buddy Louis would likely not have gone on a visit to Libya with him, back when Libya was supporting blowing up discos, downing airliners full of innocent people and killing handicapped people on cruise ships (as Libya was a true state sponsor of terror).

So how many points did you score?

0

Once again. You do realize that there are "Black" Jews right?

[Daniel]

Also,

Didn't you make the point earleir in this thread that Wright implied that you only know about persecution and hardship if you were BLACK?

Specifically, isn't that what spawned your rant about Irish Americans being marginalized in American society?

Why then are you making a fuss about him supporting Palestinians (And Jews under Romans)?

Isn't that a blantant contradiction?

Riiight.