Manafort

[~Rocktar~]

After three full days of deliberations the jury has not returned a verdict. What this means is a subject of considerable debate.

What I don't understand is why the jury isn't sequestered.

That would prevent media tampering with the jury.

[~Rocktar~]

I see. You are not answering my question because I am asking/quoting incorrectly. I can see that I read between the lines too much and that was not fair to you. I won't rephrase or ask again.

You can't see the forest for the trees or your on serious mental issues when you look in the mirror. You find it funny to grill me on a question when not answered to your liking yet consistently, repeatedly and very predictably won't answer anyone else's clear and concise questions. So, perhaps you should consider your double standard hypocrisywolf.

[time4fun]

After three full days of deliberations the jury has not returned a verdict. What this means is a subject of considerable debate.

What I don't understand is why the jury isn't sequestered.

Honestly, we're talking about 18 counts of highly complex financial crimes here. Plus there was a LOT of evidence Ellis refused to let the Prosecution admit during the trial that the Jury wasn't given access to until deliberations began. This is all pretty typical- you would expect a good 5-6 days of deliberations in a situation like this.

It's totally possible there's a single holdout, but the reality is that quick deliberations tend to be better for the defense. Longer deliberations tend to be better for the prosecution.

If I'm Manafort's defense team, I'm not feeling great right now. Of course, they're going to continue to try to paint this as a good sign for them- as there's no real downside. (Aside from the potential ethics violations that most certainly won't be followed up on)

No one knows why they weren't sequestered. The way Ellis ran this case is honestly cringe worthy.

[Methais]

After three full days of deliberations the jury has not returned a verdict. What this means is a subject of considerable debate.

What I don't understand is why the jury isn't sequestered.

They haven't finished reading this thread yet. Once they're all caught up, they should have a decision.

[Androidpk]

The question was phrased oddly but it sounds like they jury has a consensus on all but 1 count.

[time4fun]

The question was phrased oddly but it sounds like they jury has a consensus on all but 1 count.

Yeah, today's not a good day for Manafort- though, in general, he's been pretty short on those lately.

And he's going to be facing a far less sympathetic Judge next.

It's really hard to figure out exactly what his play is right now. I mean, it's possible that he's just enough of a megalomaniac that he genuinely couldn't accept that, no matter how this all turned out, it was going to end with years in prison (probably decades). But, if nothing else, Manafort is big on survival.

I suppose it's possible the he wanted to wait this all out just to see, but it's costing him an immense amount of money that he really doesn't have right now. "Wait and see" is incredibly expensive when you're facing dozens of counts in multiple jurisdictions.

He's not the type to die on his sword for someone else- so he's not doing this to defend Trump.

The notion that he's waiting for a Pardon from Trump is on the tawdry side, but it's one of the few things that makes sense. Unless he has some plan to flee the country- which is really hard to do when you're incarcerated.

[Androidpk]

I think he's counting on a pardon(s) from Trump.

[Androidpk]

Hung jury on 10 counts, verdicts about to be announced on the other 8.

:popcorn:

GUILTY (on at least one count)

[cwolff]

8 guilty today, another trial next month and the chance for a re-trial on the other ten.

Bad day for trumplandia

[Androidpk]

Found guilty on 8 charges, hung jury on 10.

BOOM goes the dynamite

5 charges of tax fraud, 1 charge of hiding foreign bank accounts, 2 counts of bank fraud.

[cwolff]

Hes facing 240 years on the 8

[Gelston]

Hes facing 240 years on the 8

80. 5 we for max of 3, 1 for 5, and two for 30.

[cwolff]

80. 5 we for max of 3, 1 for 5, and two for 30.

80, copy that.

[RichardCranium]

80. 5 we for max of 3, 1 for 5, and two for 30.

Zero. Trump pardons him.

[cwolff]

Zero. Trump pardons him.

Probably

[Astray]

Zero. Trump pardons him.

That'd be the most ruthless troll move in history.

[Gelston]

Zero. Trump pardons him.

I think the most Trump would do is commute. If he pardoned him it'd be at the end of his term if he fails reelection.

[Androidpk]

Zero. Trump pardons him.

Pardoning Manafort is a very risky move for Trump.

[cwolff]

Pardoning Manafort is a very risky move for Trump.

Trump don't give a fuck. Hes an impulsive gambler who thinks he can b.s. his way out of trouble.

I do think you're correct though that its a risky move. Commute or pardon aren't going to make much difference though.

[Androidpk]

Trump don't give a fuck. Hes an impulsive gambler who thinks he can b.s. his way out of trouble.

I do think you're correct though that its a risky move. Commute or pardon aren't going to make much difference though.

Also risky for Manafort because I'm assuming there are associated state level charges of tax fraud.

[time4fun]

I think the most Trump would do is commute. If he pardoned him it'd be at the end of his term if he fails reelection.

I think you're correct on that. I think a commutation would also come at the end of his term. It'd be suicide to do it while the Mueller investigation is going on (and it leaves the door open for Mueller's team to take Trump to Court over it).

One interesting thing about the outcome of this trial: it may actually be very beneficial to Mueller. You've got three options in a mistrial as the Prosecutor: let the charges go (doubtful in this case), go back to Court (very possible), or cut a plea deal.

This may bring Manafort back to the table for a potential plea deal- which is ultimately the point of going after Manafort.

[time4fun]

Also risky for Manafort because I'm assuming there are associated state level charges of tax fraud.

I'm not sure what the laws are in Virginia, but States often (maybe always?) have a double jeopardy clause that prevents them from going after someone for the state version of a Federal crime they've already been tried for. Hence the rampant speculation over the last year or so that Mueller is holding off on some charges so a state like New York can effectively override a Pardon.

[cwolff]

Cant wait to see how trump spins this at his rally tonight.

[Tgo01]

I think you're correct on that. I think a commutation would also come at the end of his term. It'd be suicide to do it while the Mueller investigation is going on (and it leaves the door open for Mueller's team to take Trump to Court over it).

One interesting thing about the outcome of this trial: it may actually be very beneficial to Mueller. You've got three options in a mistrial as the Prosecutor: let the charges go (doubtful in this case), go back to Court (very possible), or cut a plea deal.

This may bring Manafort back to the table for a potential plea deal- which is ultimately the point of going after Manafort.

You just admitted the point of going after Manafort was to get a plea deal so he would cooperate against Trump? So you admit this is a witch hunt and not about justice? At least now you’re being honest.

I also wonder what legal theory you are operating under where Mueller could take Trump to court for using his constitutional pardon powers.

[cwolff]

You just admitted the point of going after Manafort was to get a plea deal so he would cooperate against Trump? So you admit this is a witch hunt and not about justice? At least now you’re being honest.

I also wonder what legal theory you are operating under where Mueller could take Trump to court for using his constitutional pardon powers.

Dude, quit lying. WTF

[Androidpk]

You just admitted the point of going after Manafort was to get a plea deal so he would cooperate against Trump? So you admit this is a witch hunt and not about justice? At least now you’re being honest.

I also wonder what legal theory you are operating under where Mueller could take Trump to court for using his constitutional pardon powers.

This is how criminal conspiracy investigations are handled. Look at the mafia cases and Enron investigation that Mueller handled. Roll 'em up!

[Tgo01]

Dude, quit lying. WTF

I’m going by time4fun’s own words here. Don’t be mad at me because you can’t read.

[cwolff]

This is how criminal conspiracy investigations are handled. Look at the mafia cases and Enron investigation that Mueller handled. Roll 'em up!

God he's such a bitch trying to spin this shit. I'm surprised at my ability to feel surprise about tg slavishly defending these fucks but he managed to shock me with that post

[Tgo01]

God he's such a bitch trying to spin this shit. I'm surprised at my ability to feel surprise about tg slavishly defending these fucks but he managed to shock me with that post

Who am I defending? This is why you’re such an annoying piece of shit, unless I agree with you chuckle fucks about 100% of the shit you say I apparently hate my country. You are such a worthless human being.

[peam]

Only the best people, folks.

The very best people.

[cwolff]

Who am I defending? This is why you’re such an annoying piece of shit, unless I agree with you chuckle fucks about 100% of the shit you say I apparently hate my country. You are such a worthless human being.

Just Stfu you piece of shit. Don't try to act as if you're discussing this in good faith.

[ClydeR]

Found guilty on 8 charges, hung jury on 10.

BOOM goes the dynamite

5 charges of tax fraud, 1 charge of hiding foreign bank accounts, 2 counts of bank fraud.



He's 56% innocent.

[Tgo01]

Just Stfu you piece of shit. Don't try to act as if you're discussing this in good faith.

I know you are but what am I!

Come up with something new.

[Androidpk]

You are such a worthless human being.

So why keep responding?

[Androidpk]

He's 56% innocent.

"Prison isn't prison."

~ Giuliani, 2018

[RichardCranium]

Only the best people, folks.

The very best people.

I mean he promised to drain the swamp.

[cwolff]

Fox is trying to spin the news. Bret Baier's spinning it about Cohen saying something like tax and irs stuff doesn't implicate Donald J. Trump but the campaign finance, because of the way he phrased it, blah blah blah but I can already see that...

And now they're cutting to Iowa because an illegal killed Mollie Tibbets. This will perversely make them all feel better about today's news.

[Androidpk]

I mean he promised to drain the swamp.

.

[time4fun]

God he's such a bitch trying to spin this shit. I'm surprised at my ability to feel surprise about tg slavishly defending these fucks but he managed to shock me with that post

His greatest strength is that he has no idea what he's talking about. It makes it easy for him to say laughable things like this and not realize how embarrassing it was.

[Tgo01]

His greatest strength is that he has no idea what he's talking about. It makes it easy for him to say laughable things like this and not realize how embarrassing it was.

Just answer my question.

[time4fun]

He's 56% innocent.

Except that's not actually what a mistrial means. Manafort wasn't acquitted on those other counts, and Mueller's team can take Manafort right back to Court over those charges. He wasn't found innocent.

[RichardCranium]

Except that's not actually what a mistrial means. Manafort wasn't acquitted on those other counts, and Mueller's team can take Manafort right back to Court over those charges. He wasn't found innocent.

He's 44% guilty.

[Androidpk]

Fox is trying to spin the news. Bret Baier's spinning it about Cohen saying something like tax and irs stuff doesn't implicate Donald J. Trump but the campaign finance, because of the way he phrased it, blah blah blah but I can already see that...

And now they're cutting to Iowa because an illegal killed Mollie Tibbets. This will perversely make them all feel better about today's news.

Quick, cut to a car crash!

[Tgo01]

Except that's not actually what a mistrial means. Manafort wasn't acquitted on those other counts, and Mueller's team can take Manafort right back to Court over those charges. He wasn't found innocent.

Wow.

[time4fun]

He's 44% guilty.

Well technically the proper inference is that he's at least 44% guilty.

But that's the basic gist.

[Androidpk]

He's 44% guilty.

I'd say he's 100% guilty of the charges they were able to come to a conclusion on. The other 10 charges will be tried over with a new jury and (maybe) a new judge.

[RichardCranium]

I'd say he's 100% guilty of the charges they were able to come to a conclusion on. The other 10 charges will be tried over with a new jury and (maybe) a new judge.

How do retrials work in assigning a judge?

[time4fun]

Quick, cut to a car crash!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

One of my favorite Hannity moments ever.

[time4fun]

How do retrials work in assigning a judge?

I think they go through the assignment process all over again. I know they can go to a new judge, but I don't know if that's always true.

My legal knowledge is mostly academic- procedural stuff tends to make my head hurt.

[RichardCranium]

I know at the state level in Louisiana it's done as a lottery. I have no idea at that level.

[Neveragain]

He wasn't found innocent.

https://media.rbl.ms/image?u=%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F06%2F25%2F63602466228819 8528113453627_WW7lq.gif&ho=https%3A%2F%2Faz616578.vo.msecnd.net&s=178&h=222ad93bd694111903a73c3d4e65e7ec72fe5a7986a65c41 6b4680c12773d2b9&size=980x&c=3638350023

[time4fun]

I'd say he's 100% guilty of the charges they were able to come to a conclusion on. The other 10 charges will be tried over with a new jury and (maybe) a new judge.

In fairness- a mistrial is actually (relatively) good news for a defendant. Partially because the Prosecutor can (and often does) just drop the rest of the charges- figuring that their case isn't strong enough (Or feeling like they got enough of a sentence out of the charges that didn't mistrial).

But also because they get a do-over where they already know what the Prosecution's argument (probably) is. Mueller's team can switch tactics if they want, but I don't know that it's particularly clear that there was a better way to go about this. I mean, this time they'd probably get to admit more evidence during the trial instead of after it. But would they really fundamentally change strategy? I'm not sure.

So it's very possible that in a do-over, the Defense would have enough of an advantage from just knowing the other side's arguments and evidence that they could adapt and bring an even stronger case.

I'm not sure it really matters though, depending on the sentence handed down. Manafort probably only has 30-35 years left on this Earth. It's very possible that the sentence handed down is enough to effectively put him away for life. (Also possible it's super light, and there IS some more left to lose, as it were)

[Androidpk]

I'm curious what charges they couldn't come to an agreement on. There's also the DC case coming up in just a few weeks and supposedly Mueller has over 1000 pieces of evidence prepared against Manafort. Wondering if his defense team will actually prepare an actual defense this time.

[Neveragain]

And now they're cutting to Iowa because an illegal killed Mollie Tibbets.

This is going to be used like a WMD against the Democrats this fall, like it or not.

The Republican governor was already leading in the polls by nearly 6%.

[cwolff]

I'm curious what charges they couldn't come to an agreement on. There's also the DC case coming up in just a few weeks and supposedly Mueller has over 1000 pieces of evidence prepared against Manafort. Wondering if his defense team will actually prepare an actual defense this time.

The D.C. judge is probably more sympathetic to the prosecution too. I hope that will mean that she lets the jury hear testimony from experts who can walk them through the accounting and explain why it's illegal.

I'm getting this from a pundit I saw earlier who said the jury had to do a lot of figuring this stuff out on their own and did not get to see the evidence until they started deliberations.

[time4fun]

The D.C. judge is probably more sympathetic to the prosecution too. I hope that will mean that she lets the jury hear testimony from experts who can walk them through the accounting and explain why it's illegal.

I'm getting this from a pundit I saw earlier who said the jury had to do a lot of figuring this stuff out on their own and did not get to see the evidence until they started deliberations.

Yeah- there was quite a bit of evidence Ellis refused to let the Prosecution review during trial (but which was submitted into evidence formally). The Juror's got handed a big stack of stuff afterwards. Ellis really needs to be censored by his Circuit Court. There have been so many complaints about him over the years, and the way he handled this high-profile case was, frankly. embarrassing and ran a high risk of damaging the view of the integrity of the Court.

[Methais]

God he's such a bitch trying to spin this shit. I'm surprised at my ability to feel surprise about tg slavishly defending these fucks but he managed to shock me with that post

https://i.imgur.com/DdcExPi.gif


Just Stfu you piece of shit. Don't try to act as if you're discussing this in good faith.

https://i.imgur.com/DdcExPi.gif

[Astray]

That's staged. It has to be.

[Methais]

That's staged. It has to be.

cwolff at 1:19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdfku_e9D8

[Astray]

cwolff at 1:19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdfku_e9D8

I can't handle that video. Cops on bicycles and in shorts lazily stroll through and break up a lame ass drum circle. It's too much. It's like looking at insanity and being completely underwhelmed by it.

[time4fun]

https://media.rbl.ms/image?u=%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F06%2F25%2F63602466228819 8528113453627_WW7lq.gif&ho=https%3A%2F%2Faz616578.vo.msecnd.net&s=178&h=222ad93bd694111903a73c3d4e65e7ec72fe5a7986a65c41 6b4680c12773d2b9&size=980x&c=3638350023

People who are found innocent of charges can't be taken back to Court for said charges. Manafort can be taken back- at the Prosecution's discretion- for those 10 charges. So no, he was not found innocent by any stretch of the imagination. He's now officially a felon. It's just not clear how many felonies he'll end up with on his record.


I'd suggest learning how the legal system works before humiliating yourself with ridiculous posts.

[Androidpk]

I'd suggest learning how the legal system works before humiliating yourself with ridiculous posts.

Come on now, this is the person that thinks the president needs to have a court hearing before Congress can impeach him.

[Methais]

I can't handle that video. Cops on bicycles and in shorts lazily stroll through and break up a lame ass drum circle. It's too much. It's like looking at insanity and being completely underwhelmed by it.

They were trying to "Occupy ICE" and Philly PD was like nope.

"Monsters monsters monsters monsters!!" :lol:

[time4fun]

Come on now, this is the person that thinks the president needs to have a court hearing before Congress can impeach him.

Ahahahahahahahaha

Did he really say that? Somewhere out there a Junior High Government teacher is weeping, and they don't know why

[Astray]

They were trying to "Occupy ICE" and Philly PD was like nope.

"Monsters monsters monsters monsters!!" :lol:

Man. What an impotent bunch of losers.

[cwolff]

I can't handle that video. Cops on bicycles and in shorts lazily stroll through and break up a lame ass drum circle. It's too much. It's like looking at insanity and being completely underwhelmed by it.

What is this? You two going out of your way to post off topic little videos and using my name to do it? For what? You want my attention? You and your buddies thinks it's cute and you have a giggle together?

And you wonder why we accuse you fucks of stalking.

[Methais]

Man. What an impotent bunch of cwolffs.

Yes.

[Methais]

What is this? You two going out of your way to post off topic little videos and using my name to do it? For what? You want my attention? You and your buddies thinks it's cute and you have a giggle together?

And you wonder why we accuse you fucks of stalking.

But you remind us of this guy so much. How could anyone watch this and not think of you, cupcake?

https://i.imgur.com/DdcExPi.gif

PS: It's time for you to understand the meaning of the word "stalking."

[cudufu]

Manafort jury finds a mistrial on 10 counts. Based on questions sent to judge, it seems jury could not agree on whether Manafort had to report foreign bank accounts that he split control 50/50 with his wife

[Neveragain]

People who are found innocent of charges can't be taken back to Court for said charges. Manafort can be taken back- at the Prosecution's discretion- for those 10 charges. So no, he was not found innocent by any stretch of the imagination. He's now officially a felon. It's just not clear how many felonies he'll end up with on his record.


I'd suggest learning how the legal system works before humiliating yourself with ridiculous posts.

Obviously you're such a tyrant that you dismiss the basic principle that one does not go to court to prove innocents. The bedrock principle of our legal system is that one is innocent until proven guilty. This is to prevent people like you from smearing people with lies. I know this is lost on you.

[Astray]

What is this? You two going out of your way to post off topic little videos and using my name to do it? For what? You want my attention? You and your buddies thinks it's cute and you have a giggle together?

And you wonder why we accuse you fucks of stalking.

Stop being triggered, I literally just read over what exactly was being said. I had 0 clue you were even a loose reference. You sound paranoid and it's probably a good idea to maybe sit out for a moment and do some deep breaths, dude. Someone, Methais, posted something funny and I reacted without context. It happens, man.

[Tgo01]

cwolff at 1:19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKdfku_e9D8

I think that guy has too much muscle mass to be cwolff.

[Tgo01]

People who are found innocent of charges can't be taken back to Court for said charges. Manafort can be taken back- at the Prosecution's discretion- for those 10 charges. So no, he was not found innocent by any stretch of the imagination. He's now officially a felon. It's just not clear how many felonies he'll end up with on his record.


I'd suggest learning how the legal system works before humiliating yourself with ridiculous posts.

You do understand that you are literally the only person who thought Clyder was being serious right?

That's why people are mocking you.

[time4fun]

Obviously you're such a tyrant that you dismiss the basic principle that one does not go to court to prove innocents. The bedrock principle of our legal system is that one is innocent until proven guilty. This is to prevent people like you from smearing people with lies. I know this is lost on you.

You made an inaccurate criticism, and I corrected you. You being dead wrong and not understanding how our legal system works doesn't make me a tyrant.

It just means that, as usual, you are out of your league. Stick to racism- you're much better at that.

[Tgo01]

Stop being triggered, I literally just read over what exactly was being said. I had 0 clue you were even a loose reference. You sound paranoid and it's probably a good idea to maybe sit out for a moment and do some deep breaths, dude. Someone, Methais, posted something funny and I reacted without context. It happens, man.

A few minutes ago he flew into a rage because I dared asked time4fun a question. And he has the nerve to say "Trumplicans" are treating their politics like a religion.

[Tgo01]

You made an inaccurate criticism, and I corrected you. You being dead wrong and not understanding how our legal system works doesn't make me a tyrant.

It just means that, as usual, you are out of your league. Stick to racism- you're much better at that.

People aren't found "innocent" in a trial. So no, you didn't correct shit. I didn't ask you a question this time so maybe your altar boy cwolff won't have to declare a crusade against me.

[Androidpk]

Ahahahahahahahaha

Did he really say that? Somewhere out there a Junior High Government teacher is weeping, and they don't know why


So let me get this straight, we must impeach Trump for something he has not seen his day in court for but Bernie is totally cool after paying a fine to avoid a long drawn court case so it's kept out of the public eye.

If the FBI isn't investigating Bernie, then why has Mueller named him in the findings? Did Mueller just throw his name in there because of nothing?

.

[Neveragain]

Our justice system is based off guilty until proven innocent, I learnt this from time4failedlawstudent.

https://psychopathyawareness.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/blind-justice.jpg

[cwolff]

A few minutes ago he flew into a rage because I dared asked time4fun a question. And he has the nerve to say "Trumplicans" are treating their politics like a religion.

I called you a bitch because you fabricated an admission from T4F that the whole thing was "political", but you're lying about that like you lie about everything else.

[Tgo01]

.

You're such a nitpicker to score dumb internet points.

[Tgo01]

I called you a bitch because you fabricated an admission from T4F that the whole thing was "political", but you're lying about that like you lie about everything else.

There he goes again.

[time4fun]

https://psychopathyawareness.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/blind-justice.jpg

Impeachment isn't a juridical proceeding, genius. It's political. It was intentionally designed to circumvent the Courts since Congress doesn't have the ability to indict anyone. Only the Executive can do that, and you can't count on the head of the Executive to indict themselves.

Separation of Powers. It's a thing.

[Androidpk]

Impeachment doesn't even involve guilt or innocence, it's the act of bringing charges against the president by Congress, so that he can be tried. Bill Clinton was impeached but wasn't removed from office because Congress didn't vote him out.

[Some Rogue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU

[Neveragain]

Impeachment isn't a juridical proceeding, genius. It's political. It was intentionally designed to circumvent the Courts since Congress doesn't have the ability to indict anyone. Only the Executive can do that, and you can't count on the head of the Executive to indict themselves.

Separation of Powers. It's a thing.

You weren't talking about impeachment.

You said Manafort wasn't found not innocent. I mean seriously, my gaffe on impeachment pales in comparison to your lack of understanding the basic principle of our justice system.

https://media.giphy.com/media/NPyHgTkMStCXC/giphy.gif

[time4fun]

You weren't talking about impeachment.

You said Manafort wasn't found not innocent. I mean seriously, my gaffe on impeachment pales in comparison to your lack of understand the basic principle of our justice system.

https://media.giphy.com/media/NPyHgTkMStCXC/giphy.gif

ROFL

Coming from a guy who thinks a Judge should be involved in impeachment, and that a mistrial means a verdict of innocent.

I get why you and Tgo get along so well.

And why you so readily embrace a President who is looking more and more like a felon every day.

[Tgo01]

Coming from a guy who thinks a Judge should be involved in impeachment, and that a mistrial means a verdict of innocent.

Where did Neveragain say a judge should be involved or that a mistrial means a verdict of innocent? Your ability to make up shit is as impressive as cwolff's and pk's ability to ignore the shit you make up and pretend you say insightful, truthful things.

[Neveragain]

ROFL

Coming from a guy who thinks a Judge should be involved in impeachment, and that a mistrial means a verdict of innocent.

I get why you and Tgo get along so well.

And why you so readily embrace a President who is looking more and more like a felon every day.

There is no found innocent, no matter the case, a defendant is presumed innocent until found guilty. There is no such thing as a verdict of innocent...except in your rainbow jihadist mind.

In a mistrial the defendant is still presumed innocent because a jury could not convert the accusations being made by the prosecutor to a guilty charge. So yes, on those charges Manafort is still innocent.

P.S. For fuck sake I should be level 117 tonight and here I am trying to teach the rainbow jihadists something they can learn by just walking into your local courthouse.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/21/35/00/21350029fdca0928445a8c8accb237bd.gif

[time4fun]

There is no found innocent, no matter the case, a defendant is presumed innocent until found guilty. There is no such thing as a verdict of innocent...except in your rainbow jihadist mind.

ROFL.

That's not how presumption of innocence works. There IS such a thing as an acquittal: which is an official verdict of innocence. And it is a VERY different state than the "presumption of innocence". The latter means it's the government's job to prove guilt, but it doesn't preclude the government from trying.

A verdict of innocence does.

A mistrial means no verdict was rendered. Manafort is neither declared innocent of the charges, nor is he declared guilty. And he can be taken right back to Court on those charges.

[cwolff]

ROFL.

That's not how presumption of innocence works. There IS such a thing as an acquittal: which is an official verdict of innocence. And it is a VERY different state than the "presumption of innocence". The latter means it's the government's job to prove guilt, but it doesn't preclude the government from trying.

A verdict of innocence does.

A mistrial means no verdict was rendered. Manafort is neither declared innocent of the charges, nor is he declared guilty. And he can be taken right back to Court on those charges.

Is that the case? I was under the impression that you're either guilty or not guilty but can't ever be found "innocent".

[Tgo01]

There IS such a thing as an acquittal: which is an official verdict of innocence.

An acquittal is the same damn thing as a "not guilty" verdict. A judge can acquit someone which is NOT an "official verdict of innocence", it has all of the same implications as a not guilty jury verdict.

I honestly feel dumber every time you try to sound smart and fail spectacularly.

[time4fun]

Is that the case? I was under the impression that you're either guilty or not guilty but can't ever be found "innocent".

As a matter of technical legal language you're correct - I'm oversimplifying for the purpose of a normal conversation (ish). The government can actually come back after you if they find new evidence- the only way you're ever truly immune to further prosecution is if you already had a guilty verdict/plea.

But they can't come after you with the same evidence (though it's done by retroactively declaring the case as a mistrial- which basically changes the state back to no verdict). You're functionally immune to prosecution based on the existing evidence with a verdict of not guilty. In a mistrial, they can come after you with the same evidence because no verdict was rendered. So you're Shrodinger's citizen: neither guilty nor not-guilty at the same time.

[cwolff]

As a matter of technical legal language you're correct - I'm oversimplifying for the purpose of a normal conversation (ish). The government can actually come back after you if they find new evidence- the only way you're ever truly immune to further prosecution is if you already had a guilty verdict/plea.

But they can't come after you with the same evidence. You're functionally immune to prosecution based on the existing evidence with a verdict of not guilty. In a mistrial, they can come after you with the same evidence because no verdict was rendered. So you're Shrodinger's citizen: neither guilty nor not-guilty at the same time.

I'm watching trumps rally. The crowd keeps shouting Lock her up, Lock her up. HAHAHA. Waiting to see if trump pardons Manafort right on live TV.

[cwolff]

Poor Bret Baier. He and the trumplicans at Fox had a rough day so he ended his broadcast with puppies.



https://youtu.be/lOjvM--Uxyw

[time4fun]

I'm watching trumps rally. The crowd keeps shouting Lock her up, Lock her up. HAHAHA. Waiting to see if trump pardons Manafort right on live TV.

*Facepalm* These people are willing to overlook anything.

Also it looks like Cohen is willing to testify that Trump did have advanced notice of the Trump Tower meeting.

The house of cards is starting to come tumbling down. Look for Trump to do something extreme to either change the subject or to stop everything in its tracks.

At the end of the day- the US has a long-standing tradition of never going after your political opponents (Trump has already tried repeatedly to break that tradition because he only cares about himself). There's a reason why Ford Pardoned Nixon. That means that it's almost guaranteed that no one is going to go after Trump when this is all said and done. That means that for Trump, impeachment is the least risky option. If this all comes crashing down fast enough, he likely faces a higher risk of indictment as a sitting President than as a former one. (Even if neither chance is particularly high)

Once he realizes that, he may suddenly not be particularly interested in saving his own job.

[Neveragain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGNiXGX2nLU

The 80's are guilty of creating really shitty pop music.

The 80's are also guilty of having fucking awesome hair.

[cwolff]

*Facepalm* These people are willing to overlook anything.

Also it looks like Cohen is willing to testify that Trump did have advanced notice of the Trump Tower meeting.

The house of cards is starting to come tumbling down. Look for Trump to do something extreme to either change the subject or to stop everything in its tracks.

At the end of the day- the US has a long-standing tradition of never going after your political opponents (Trump has already tried repeatedly to break that tradition because he only cares about himself). There's a reason why Ford Pardoned Nixon. That means that it's almost guaranteed that no one is going to go after Trump when this is all said and done. That means that for Trump, impeachment is the least risky option. If this all comes crashing down fast enough, he likely faces a higher risk of indictment as a sitting President than as a former one. (Even if neither chance is particularly high)

Once he realizes that, he may suddenly not be particularly interested in saving his own job.

Ya, Cohen's attorney is on the warpath. At the very least he's definitely trying to get trumps attention.

I think that impeachment will be good for trump. They should hold enough seats to stave off losing and then he will have carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants.

I am also interested though in the difference between committing crimes as a candidate than as POTUS. We've seen this work against him in some civil actions already.

[Androidpk]

I'm starting to lean towards Mueller directly indicting Trump. If there was ever a time to challenge that notion it's now.

[cwolff]

I'm starting to lean towards Mueller directly indicting Trump. If there was ever a time to challenge that notion it's now.

I would love to know what Emmett Flood is doing right now. I think he sends Rudy out to get all the headlines acting crazy and he's been absolutely silent behind the scenes.

[Tgo01]

The government can actually come back after you if they find new evidence- the only way you're ever truly immune to further prosecution is if you already had a guilty verdict/plea.

But they can't come after you with the same evidence (though it's done by retroactively declaring the case as a mistrial- which basically changes the state back to no verdict). You're functionally immune to prosecution based on the existing evidence with a verdict of not guilty. In a mistrial, they can come after you with the same evidence because no verdict was rendered. So you're Shrodinger's citizen: neither guilty nor not-guilty at the same time.

What the hell are you talking about? Being acquitted means you are immune from further prosecution for that crime. Period. It doesn't matter if later on the prosecution finds a video showing that indeed Bob did kill that gas station clerk, if it wasn't presented at trial and the jury found Bob not guilty then Bob is a free man for that murder. This is why prosecutors are sure they have all of the evidence they think they need to convict you of a crime first before filing any charges because if the jury comes back with a not guilty verdict it's too late. The only thing they could try and do is go after Bob for a different crime, but they sure as shit can't charge him with assault if a jury already found him not guilty of murder. They could try for maybe robbery if the video showed Bob robbing the gas station and they didn't already charge him with robbery in the first trial.

The only exception to this is the dual sovereignty doctrine where a person could be tried in both state court and federal court for the exact same crime. But if Bob is found not guilty in state court then the state can never ever ever ever ever ever try him for the gas station clerk's murder. Ever.

[time4fun]

I'm starting to lean towards Mueller directly indicting Trump. If there was ever a time to challenge that notion it's now.

A pre-inauguration campaign finance violation would definitely be a good test case. (Assuming there's corroborating evidence that proves Trump was directing the buy offs)

Mueller would also have standing to sue to overturn the DoJ stance against indictment. Possibly the only person who would have standing if the charges are Federal.

Mueller's such a boy scout though. I just don't see him fighting this.

Of course, Rosenstein could sign off on/direct it. But, I don't really know how likely that is or isn't.

[Neveragain]

Well level 117 isn't happening tonight. Thanks Trump!

[~Rocktar~]

Well level 117 isn't happening tonight. Thanks Trump!

Azeroth Autopilot and quest while doing nearly anything else. Two monitors for the win.

[Methais]

Poor Bret Baier. He and the trumplicans at Fox had a rough day so he ended his broadcast with puppies.



https://youtu.be/lOjvM--Uxyw

Confirmed cwolff hates puppies.

What a dickwipe.

[cwolff]

9124

So much for "Law and Order".


https://youtu.be/cDPL7lRK-ZI

[Androidpk]

JFC..

[time4fun]

Anyone hear that?

It's the sound of a Pardon coming down the stairs.

[Methais]

Anyone hear that?

It's the sound of a Pardon coming down the stairs.

All I heard was cwolff queefing.

[Some Rogue]

All I heard was PB and Methais watching meatpsin for 36 consecutive hours.

:spin:

[Methais]

All I heard was PB and Methais watching meatpsin for 36 consecutive hours.

:spin:

https://media.giphy.com/media/aU2LaiYUBmSqY/giphy.gif

Now you're watching meatspin.

[~Rocktar~]

So, since Obama's campaign was fined over the 2008 campaign for "campaign reporting violations" which is what this would be since it is Trumps own money to pay off bimbos seeking to cash in after 10 years, why do you think that this should be a trial issue? The case precedent is already there with Edwards too so even if this really gets to prosecution in some absurd way, why do you all think that he is going to jail or going to be impeached? Seriously, your heroes already did this and got set the standard. The funny thing is, you are all up in arms about how this hurts the US and about how the law is the law, except in the case of when it applies to your side.

Hillary won't be President, Pence is so genuinely conservative that he would make you wish Trump was back in office if Trump gets kicked and you all are just doing everything possible to make sure that there is no blue wave and that Trump gets four more years. You all would have been better off moving along and keeping your heads down and even working on a bi-partisan immigration bill that gave you all that you demanded and yet you couldn't even do that.

You are right, in todays' world, for the most part, America doesn't give a shit that Trump banged some bimbos and paid them off. America doesn't give a damn about people's sex lives and personal moral standards. America cares that they have jobs, people aren't bombing them and they have a President that is smart enough to tell them that they should come fist in their own country. And you all made this world. Stop crying about how terrible it is because it is just your policies and behaviors come to roost.

[Androidpk]

You thinking Trump is smart.. :lol2:

[~Rocktar~]

All I heard was cwolff queefing.

Was that from his front hole or his back hole?

For context: http://caldronpool.com/healthline-says-using-the-medical-term-vagina-is-not-gender-inclusive-language-uses-front-hole-instead/

[~Rocktar~]

You thinking Trump is smart.. :lol2:

He was smart enough to make billions, he was smart enough to get elected and he is smarter than you though that is not a high bar.

[Ardwen]

If Trump had simply invested in the market normally the 100 or so million he started with he'd have made several times more then he did using his amazing skills at tax evasion, bankruptcy and court to avoid paying contractors and vendors.

[Androidpk]

He was smart enough to make billions, he was smart enough to get elected and he is smarter than you though that is not a high bar.

Poor rocktar, your President is a criminal and you're still defending him.

[Androidpk]

If Trump had simply invested in the market normally the 100 or so million he started with he'd have made several times more then he did using his amazing skills at tax evasion, bankruptcy and court to avoid paying contractors and vendors.

This

[time4fun]

So, since Obama's campaign was fined over the 2008 campaign for "campaign reporting violations" which is what this would be since it is Trumps own money to pay off bimbos seeking to cash in after 10 years, why do you think that this should be a trial issue? The case precedent is already there with Edwards too so even if this really gets to prosecution in some absurd way, why do you all think that he is going to jail or going to be impeached? Seriously, your heroes already did this and got set the standard. The funny thing is, you are all up in arms about how this hurts the US and about how the law is the law, except in the case of when it applies to your side.

Hillary won't be President, Pence is so genuinely conservative that he would make you wish Trump was back in office if Trump gets kicked and you all are just doing everything possible to make sure that there is no blue wave and that Trump gets four more years. You all would have been better off moving along and keeping your heads down and even working on a bi-partisan immigration bill that gave you all that you demanded and yet you couldn't even do that.

You are right, in todays' world, for the most part, America doesn't give a shit that Trump banged some bimbos and paid them off. America doesn't give a damn about people's sex lives and personal moral standards. America cares that they have jobs, people aren't bombing them and they have a President that is smart enough to tell them that they should come fist in their own country. And you all made this world. Stop crying how terrible it is because it is just your policies and behaviors come to roost.

So first off, the Obama situation is NOT comparable to the Trump situation for a few reasons:
1) The Obama campaign violations weren't felonies
2) Obama didn't direct his campaign to commit a felony (or any violation)
3) The Obama campaign wasn't hiding money- they accurately reported all of their money. They just didn't file a bunch of notices required of last-minute contributions that meet certain requirements.

The Obama campaign fine was well deserved. They were supposed to file those noticed, and they missed A LOT of them (not a lot compared to the number of contributions they got, but we're not talking 1 or 2).

But for you to compare the situations tells me that either you don't actually understand the violations, or you're just incredibly dishonest. Or, you know, both.

[Androidpk]

Obama also released his tax returns.

[cwolff]

So, since Obama's campaign was fined over the 2008 campaign for "campaign reporting violations" which is what this would be since it is Trumps own money to pay off bimbos seeking to cash in after 10 years, why do you think that this should be a trial issue? The case precedent is already there with Edwards too so even if this really gets to prosecution in some absurd way, why do you all think that he is going to jail or going to be impeached? Seriously, your heroes already did this and got set the standard. The funny thing is, you are all up in arms about how this hurts the US and about how the law is the law, except in the case of when it applies to your side.

Hillary won't be President, Pence is so genuinely conservative that he would make you wish Trump was back in office if Trump gets kicked and you all are just doing everything possible to make sure that there is no blue wave and that Trump gets four more years. You all would have been better off moving along and keeping your heads down and even working on a bi-partisan immigration bill that gave you all that you demanded and yet you couldn't even do that.

You are right, in todays' world, for the most part, America doesn't give a shit that Trump banged some bimbos and paid them off. America doesn't give a damn about people's sex lives and personal moral standards. America cares that they have jobs, people aren't bombing them and they have a President that is smart enough to tell them that they should come fist in their own country. And you all made this world. Stop crying about how terrible it is because it is just your policies and behaviors come to roost.


So first off, the Obama situation is NOT comparable to the Trump situation for a few reasons:
1) The Obama campaign violations weren't felonies
2) Obama didn't direct his campaign to commit a felony (or any violation)
3) The Obama campaign wasn't hiding money- they accurately reported all of their money. They just didn't file a bunch of notices required of last-minute contributions that meet certain requirements.

The Obama campaign fine was well deserved. They were supposed to file those noticed, and they missed A LOT of them (not a lot compared to the number of contributions they got, but we're not talking 1 or 2).

But for you to compare the situations tells me that either you don't actually understand the violations, or you're just incredibly dishonest. Or, you know, both.

Dershowitz started this defense last night on Fox. He did it by citing the Edwards decision and saying that campaign finance violations are like jaywalking.

[~Rocktar~]

If Trump had simply invested in the market normally the 100 or so million he started with he'd have made several times more then he did using his amazing skills at tax evasion, bankruptcy and court to avoid paying contractors and vendors.

Assuming you don't take anything from the investment, this is true, however, you have to live somehow and for someone like him or you or pretty much everyone ever, no one ever reinvests 100% of everything all the time with no other income. And for all the crying about how he made money, those methods are available to everyone, even you. Jealousy is such an evil thing.

[~Rocktar~]

Poor rocktar, your President is a criminal and you're still defending him.

And your candidate is a criminal and you defended the fuck out of her and Bernie. So, you were trying to claim some moral high ground? Seriously, four more years.

[Ardwen]

Yep Tax evasion, cheating contractors and abusing the bankruptcy system sure are available to everyone, just ask Manafort seeing that he is going to jail for the tax evasion portion of that among other things. And if you start with 100 million and reinvest it, even the way the Trumps spend money they still have more then they have now, unless they invested with Trump's friend Bernie Madoff of course.

[Ashliana]

And your candidate is a criminal

* Citation needed.

(Good luck, imbecile).

[Tgo01]

Saying Trump would have made more by investing in the stock market has to be one of the more lazy critiques of him I have seen.

Who invests all of their money, 100 million in the 1970s or whenever, in the stock market? Trump could have also made more money if he had just invented Google. Why didn't he just invent Google? What an idiot.

[Androidpk]

And your candidate is a criminal and you defended the fuck out of her and Bernie. So, you were trying to claim some moral high ground? Seriously, four more years.

Rocktar thinks I defended the fuck out of Hillary...

I can't even.. :lol2::lol2::lol2:

[cwolff]

Yep Tax evasion, cheating contractors and abusing the bankruptcy system sure are available to everyone, just ask Manafort seeing that he is going to jail for the tax evasion portion of that among other things. And if you start with 100 million and reinvest it, even the way the Trumps spend money they still have more then they have now, unless they invested with Trump's friend Bernie Madoff of course.

It's impossible to say. Trump fucked up every business he touched and has been getting heavy cash infusions from Russians for 20 years. We can't see his taxes, he won't divest or put his business in a blind trust and he is obviously comfortable with criminals. There's no reason to believe that trump is capable of turning a profit in a straight up legitimate business. If he could, he probably wouldn't be such a loud mouth liar. His work would speak for itself.

[cwolff]

Rocktar thinks I defended the fuck out of Hillary...

I can't even.. :lol2::lol2::lol2:

He's rationalizing like a mother fucker right now. They got a punch in the gut yesterday but are still unwilling to view their boy with any objectivity.

[Methais]

It's impossible to say. Trump fucked up every business he touched and has been getting heavy cash infusions from Russians for 20 years. We can't see his taxes, he won't divest or put his business in a blind trust and he is obviously comfortable with criminals. There's no reason to believe that trump is capable of turning a profit in a straight up legitimate business. If he could, he probably wouldn't be such a loud mouth liar. His work would speak for itself.

https://i.imgur.com/B24tdDX.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/B24tdDX.gif

[time4fun]

And your candidate is a criminal and you defended the fuck out of her and Bernie. So, you were trying to claim some moral high ground? Seriously, four more years.

Really? She's a criminal?

Out of curiosity- which investigation into Hillary Clinton led to indictment? Of literally anyone.

We'll wait.

[time4fun]

Rocktar thinks I defended the fuck out of Hillary...

I can't even.. :lol2::lol2::lol2:

There are no words.

[Methais]

Really? She's a criminal?

Out of curiosity- which investigation into Hillary Clinton led to indictment? Of literally anyone.

We'll wait.

I assume you will be refraining from calling Trump a criminal until if/when he's indicted then, no? Or is this another case of "But this is different!"?

[Tgo01]

Rocktar thinks I defended the fuck out of Hillary...

I can't even.. :lol2::lol2::lol2:

You just do it now, because your "holding both sides accountable" can only hold one side accountable at a time.

[Androidpk]

You just do it now, because your "holding both sides accountable" can only hold one side accountable at a time.

Lie some more.

[Tgo01]

Lie some more.

When was the last time you "held a Democrat" accountable? Sometime around January 20th, 2017?

[Androidpk]

Maybe you should be less concerned with me and more concerned with the crook you keep defending.

[Methais]

Maybe you should be less concerned with me and more concerned with the crook you keep defending.

https://i.imgur.com/7xT5HdD.gif

[Tgo01]

Maybe you should be less concerned with me and more concerned with the crook you keep defending.

So the answer is "Why yes, Tgo01, that sounds about right."

Thought so.

[Methais]

So the answer is "Why yes, Tgo01, that sounds about right."

Thought so.

HEY BUDDY STAY ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

[Tgo01]

HEY BUDDY STAY ON TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

:(

[Androidpk]

So the answer is "Why yes, Tgo01, that sounds about right."

Thought so.

I defend Hillary?

[Methais]

I defend Hillary?

Yes. Remember that really long post where you told us in graphic detail about all the fantasies you have about her on a regular basis?

[Androidpk]

Yes. Remember that really long post where you told us in graphic detail about all the fantasies you have about her on a regular basis?

Look at methias kink shaming.

[Methais]

Look at methias kink shaming.

Whoa slow down, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/71810925.jpg

[Parkbandit]

It's impossible to say. Trump fucked up every business he touched and has been getting heavy cash infusions from Russians for 20 years. We can't see his taxes, he won't divest or put his business in a blind trust and he is obviously comfortable with criminals. There's no reason to believe that trump is capable of turning a profit in a straight up legitimate business. If he could, he probably wouldn't be such a loud mouth liar. His work would speak for itself.

You aren't even trying to be honest anymore... are you?

Full blown emotional meltdown.

I'm glad I'm here to watch.

I dislike Trump as a man.. but holy hell, I will be pulling the level for him in 2020 and hope he wins again.

This entertaining fun has been well worth it.

Thank you.

[cwolff]

NEW: In an interview on Fox News, Manafort juror says there was a SINGLE holdout for the 10 counts that ended in a mistrial. The final votes were 11-1 for guilty. (They convicted Manafort on the other 8 counts of tax and bank fraud.)

https://twitter.com/MarshallCohen/status/1032463982408425472

That was close. 1 hold out or we could have had a clean sweep.

[time4fun]

Apparently she's an avid Trump supporter. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/22/manafort-juror-reveals-lone-holdout-prevented-mueller-team-from-convicting-on-all-counts.html)


Duncan described herself as an avid supporter of President Trump, but said she was moved by four full boxes of exhibits provided by Mueller’s team – though she was skeptical about prosecutors' motives in the financial crimes case.

“Certainly Mr. Manafort got caught breaking the law, but he wouldn’t have gotten caught if they weren’t after President Trump,” Duncan said of the special counsel’s case, which she separately described as a “witch hunt to try to find Russian collusion,” borrowing a phrase Trump has used in tweets more than 100 times.

“Something that went through my mind is, this should have been a tax audit,” Duncan said, sympathizing with the foundation of the Manafort defense team’s argument.

“Finding Mr. Manafort guilty was hard for me, I wanted him to be innocent, I really wanted him to be innocent, but he wasn’t,” Duncan said. “That’s the part of a juror, you have to have due diligence and deliberate and look at the evidence and come up with an informed and intelligent decision, which I did.”

This is unreal.

[cwolff]

Apparently she's an avid Trump supporter. (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/22/manafort-juror-reveals-lone-holdout-prevented-mueller-team-from-convicting-on-all-counts.html)



This is unreal.

Good for her in fulfilling her duty with the gravity and seriousness that was required. I'm bummed it wasn't a clean sweep but even Fox News can be sure that he had a fair trial. I was also surprised at her descriptions of slouching prosecutors who looked bored and even napped in their chairs. If I was their boss, I'd consider making an example out of them.

[time4fun]

Another quote from her:


“Every day when I drove, I had my Make America Great Again hat in the backseat,” said Duncan, who said she plans to vote for Trump again in 2020. “Just as a reminder.”

[time4fun]

Trump was definitely talking about Pardoning Manafort today: (https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-host-trump-mentioned-pardoning-paul-manafort)


Fox News host Ainsley Earhardt, who interviewed President Donald Trump earlier Wednesday, told Sean Hannity that the president “mentioned pardoning” his former campaign chairman Paul Manafort. “I think he feels bad for Manafort,” Earhardt told Hannity on his show. “They were friends, he didn’t work for him for very long. He worked for him for basically a hundred days.” The remarks come after White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders told reporters during Wednesday’s press briefing that Trump “hadn’t been thinking about” a pardon for Manafort.

[cwolff]

Trump was definitely talking about Pardoning Manafort today: (https://www.thedailybeast.com/fox-news-host-trump-mentioned-pardoning-paul-manafort)

He's got a Fox interview in the morning. Is that the airing of today's interview or a new one?


I will be interviewed on @foxandfriends by @ainsleyearhardt tomorrow from 6:00 A.M. to 9:00 A.M. Enjoy!

EDIT: Ok, I see it now. The interview airs tomorrow. That's a shame. I like when he does it live. You never know what will happen.

[time4fun]

You know the funny thing about that juror on Fox last night is that she ended up doing Mueller's team a huge potential favor.

[Androidpk]

Yeah it shows to Mueller (and everyone else) that there are those in Trump's base that can and will view Mueller's investigation objectively.

[time4fun]

Yeah it shows to Mueller (and everyone else) that there are those in Trump's base that can and will view Mueller's investigation objectively.

It also helps them with the assessment of whether or not to retry those counts. And if they're looking to squeeze Manafort into cooperating, she added fuel to the fire.

Though it's increasingly clear that he's counting on a Pardon. And it's increasingly clear he's been told to expect one.

[Androidpk]

Pardon or not it will still hurt him. He's broke and I can only imagine the legal costs he's accruing. Which makes me wonder who's paying his lawyers.

[Tgo01]

It also helps them with the assessment of whether or not to retry those counts. And if they're looking to squeeze Manafort into cooperating, she added fuel to the fire.

Though it's increasingly clear that he's counting on a Pardon. And it's increasingly clear he's been told to expect one.

It's going to be so awesome if Trump pardons him soon, not only do all of your "intelligent" points such as this one become totally meaningless, but we get to finally see if your theory of Mueller taking Trump to court for unknown reasons comes true!

[time4fun]

Pardon or not it will still hurt him. He's broke and I can only imagine the legal costs he's accruing. Which makes me wonder who's paying his lawyers.

Ding. Ding. Ding. That's the million dollar question. I hadn't really thought about it until you said that, but he must be getting financing from someone in Trump's orbit. (Or the Kremlin's, if we want to get spy novel on it).

Speaking of shady financing: Maddow pointed out something very interesting last night. There was reporting yesterday that part of what was uncovered in the Cohen case was a bill to the Trump Campaign (I think...might have been Trump Org) from Cohen in the amount of $50k for tech services.

Interestingly enough, the Steele Dossier claims that during his alleged trip to Prague, he was discussing how to hide payments to Russian hackers who were hacking the DNC and Clinton with the Russian government.

This is obviously pure speculation, but it's an interesting coincidence.

[ClydeR]

The two things that stood out to me from the juror's interview were, first, that the jurors agreed to disregard Rick Gates' testimony because they did not trust him and, second, that she said she was influenced by Manafort's decision to remain silent. I wonder if saying that she was influenced by Manafort's exercise of his 5th Amendment rights is grounds for appeal.

It's going to be a weird situation when Gates goes to jail and Manafort goes to the beach after his pardon.

[time4fun]

It's going to be so awesome if Trump pardons him soon, not only do all of your "intelligent" points such as this one become totally meaningless, but we get to finally see if your theory of Mueller taking Trump to court for unknown reasons comes true!

Your willingness to cheer on the perversion of our rule of law and democratic principles of holding our leaders accountable is shameful.

You know Trump broke a lot of laws, or you wouldn't be hoping he Pardons Manafort.

You know what we call a leader who criticizes citizens for using their 1st amendment rights to protest, ruthlessly attacks the Free Press, tries to use law enforcement agencies to attack political opponents, calls for the imprisonment of private citizens, colludes with foreign powers to win elections, and who abuses Presidential powers to protect himself and his criminal friends?

Dangerous.

And you're enabling him for reasons that are entierly unclear. You actually think he's doing all of this for you? For anyone but himself?

[Tgo01]

Your willingness to cheer on the perversion of our rule of law and democratic principles of holding our leaders accountable is shameful.

You know Trump broke a lot of laws, or you wouldn't be hoping he Pardons Manafort.

You know what we call a leader who criticizes citizens for using their 1st amendment rights to protest, ruthlessly attacks the Free Press, tries to use law enforcement agencies to attack political opponents, calls for the imprisonment of private citizens, colludes with foreign powers to win elections, and who abuses Presidential powers to protect himself and his criminal friends?

Dangerous.

And you're enabling him for reasons that are entierly unclear. You actually think he's doing all of this for you? For anyone but himself?

I know Trump broke a lot of laws? But...but but I thought we can’t say that until someone is found guilty in a court of law? Or does only Hillary receive that benefit?

[Androidpk]

It's going to be a weird situation when Gates goes to jail and Manafort goes to the beach after his pardon.

You gotta remember that when Manafort was sent to jail in June it wasn't Judge Ellis, it was Judge Jackson. Trump would have to give him some sort of blanket pardon to Manafort.

[time4fun]

You gotta remember that when Manafort was sent to jail in June it wasn't Judge Ellis, it was Judge Jackson. Trump would have to give him some sort of blanket pardon to Manafort.

Yeah this last trial is going to feel like a cake walk in comparison to the next one (or possibly two... We'll find that out next week)

[Androidpk]

I know Trump broke a lot of laws? But...but but I thought we can’t say that until someone is found guilty in a court of law? Or does only Hillary receive that benefit?

Some people are worse than others. Trump wants to be able to do what Erdogan does in his country.

[Androidpk]

I'll miss Ellis' weird little insults to the prosecutors.

[Methais]

Some people are worse than others. Trump wants to be able to do what Erdogan does in his country.

It's funny because you probably really believe that.

[Androidpk]

It's funny because you probably really believe that.


President Donald Trump on Thursday said Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is “getting very high marks,” despite his increasingly autocratic behavior.


“It’s a great honor and privilege — because he’s become a friend of mine — to introduce President Erdogan of Turkey,” Trump told reporters. “He’s running a very difficult part of the world. He’s involved very, very strongly and, frankly, he’s getting very high marks.”


Erdogan, who spoke through a translator ahead of his meeting with Trump at the Lotte New York Palace Hotel on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly, echoed Trump’s sentiment, calling the American president “my dear friend, Donald.”

I do believe it.

[Tgo01]

Some people are worse than others. Trump wants to be able to do what Erdogan does in his country.

Oh we back to attacking Turkey? I thought they were sacrosanct after Trump attacked Erdogan?

[Androidpk]

Oh we back to attacking Turkey? I thought they were sacrosanct after Trump attacked Erdogan?

Attacking Erdogan != attacking Turkey

[cwolff]

It's going to be so awesome if Trump pardons him soon, not only do all of your "intelligent" points such as this one become totally meaningless, but we get to finally see if your theory of Mueller taking Trump to court for unknown reasons comes true!

Why would you say something like this? He was convicted in a court of law by a jury with at least one very friendly juror. Why in any world would you think it's awesome for him to get a pardon? Don't let your hatred of us make you lose all your scruples (if you have any left)

[Androidpk]

Pardoning convicted criminals to own the libs.

[time4fun]

I know Trump broke a lot of laws? But...but but I thought we can’t say that until someone is found guilty in a court of law? Or does only Hillary receive that benefit?

That grace period ended when Trump's lawyer pleaded guilty to felony election crimes in Court and- under penalty of perjury- told a Judge in no uncertain terms that the President of the United States had directed him to commit those crimes on his behalf. As a reminder- Cohen had nothing to gain from the crimes. The only person who had anything to gain from them was Trump.

And it also ended when the State of New York filed an indictment that named Trump and included a hand-written note from him directing the Trump Org to pay out a $100,000 legal settlement directly from his foundation.

And the real point here is you are perfectly aware that Trump committed these crimes (and quite likely more). Or you wouldn't be cheering on the Pardoning of Manafort.

Try an honest post for once Tgo. It might just be good for what's left of your soul.

[cwolff]

Pardoning convicted criminals to own the libs.

HAHAH, Ya right. They'd cheer for a pardon of our worst criminals if it tillitated them to see us get all up in arms over it. Cutting of the nose to spite the face.

[Tgo01]

Attacking Erdogan != attacking Turkey

LOL! Right. Right. You pieces of shit never cease to wonder.

[Tgo01]

Why would you say something like this? He was convicted in a court of law by a jury with at least one very friendly juror. Why in any world would you think it's awesome for him to get a pardon? Don't let your hatred of us make you lose all your scruples (if you have any left)

Look at the precious little Democrat suddenly caring about convicted criminals being pardoned! Surely you cried like the little girl you are when Obama was busy pardoning/commuting the sentences of convicted drug dealers and people convicted of treason.

[Tgo01]

That grace period ended when Trump's lawyer pleaded guilty to felony election crimes in Court and- under penalty of perjury- told a Judge in no uncertain terms that the President of the United States had directed him to commit those crimes on his behalf. As a reminder- Cohen had nothing to gain from the crimes. The only person who had anything to gain from them was Trump.

And it also ended when the State of New York filed an indictment that named Trump and included a hand-written note from him directing the Trump Org to pay out a $100,000 legal settlement directly from his foundation.

And the real point here is you are perfectly aware that Trump committed these crimes (and quite likely more). Or you wouldn't be cheering on the Pardoning of Manafort.

Try an honest post for once Tgo. It might just be good for what's left of your soul.

Hey, Androidpk, back me up here. We both know Hillary Clinton broke a lot of laws even though she was never tried and convicted right?

Or you too busy sucking time4fun's massive cock to hold both sides accountable? ;)

[cwolff]

Look at the precious little Democrat suddenly caring about convicted criminals being pardoned! Surely you cried like the little girl you are when Obama was busy pardoning/commuting the sentences of convicted drug dealers and people convicted of treason.

I asked you a question. Man to man. How can you cheer for Manafort to be pardoned?

[Tgo01]

I asked you a question. Man to man. How can you cheer for Manafort to be pardoned?

I'll answer your question as soon as you answer me why you didn't give a single shit about all of the terrible people Obama pardoned or commuted their sentence?

You talk so much about "OMG! TREASON!" But Obama literally commuted the sentence of someone convicted for treason.

He let drug dealers and other dangerous people go.

And you're crying like a gigantic bitch because someone convicted of bank fraud might be let go?

Your crocodile tears would be so pathetic if they weren't so hilarious, you giant hypocrite.

[cwolff]

I'll answer your question as soon as you answer me why you didn't give a single shit about all of the terrible people Obama pardoned or commuted their sentence?

You talk so much about "OMG! TREASON!" But Obama literally commuted the sentence of someone convicted for treason.

He let drug dealers and other dangerous people go.

And you're crying like a gigantic bitch because someone convicted of bank fraud might be let go?

Your crocodile tears would be so pathetic if they weren't so hilarious, you giant hypocrite.

I see you can't/won't answer. Not without smearing some shit around first and attempting to change the direction of the conversation. That's par for the course. You don't have a moral center do you?

You don't bring anything to this folder. Have you noticed that? All you do is react and attack. You are on the verge of a meltdown. Get a grip, compose yourself and start responding as if you were an adult.

[Tgo01]

I see you can't/won't answer. Not without smearing some shit around first and attempting to change the direction of the conversation. That's par for the course. You don't have a moral center do you?

You don't bring anything to this folder. Have you noticed that? All you do is react and attack. You are on the verge of a meltdown. Get a grip, compose yourself and start responding as if you were an adult.

I see you can't even begin to be consistent with your beliefs ;)

Obama pardons someone convicted of treason.
cwolff yawns.
Trump gets elected.
cwolff: HE'S A TRAITOR TO OUR COUNTRY!
Trump might pardon someone convicted of bank fraud.
cwolff: OMG! PROOF HE'S A TRAITOR TO OUR COUNTRY!

It's almost TOO easy completely destroying you trio of morons anymore. There is absolutely no challenge in it anymore because you three change your political position as often as you change your underwear so it's too easy to destroy your pathetic positions on just about everything.

[cwolff]

I see you can't even begin to be consistent with your beliefs ;)

Obama pardons someone convicted of treason.
cwolff yawns.
Trump gets elected.
cwolff: HE'S A TRAITOR TO OUR COUNTRY!
Trump might pardon someone convicted of bank fraud.
cwolff: OMG! PROOF HE'S A TRAITOR TO OUR COUNTRY!

It's almost TOO easy completely destroying you trio of morons anymore. There is absolutely no challenge in it anymore because you three change your political position as often as you change your underwear so it's too easy to destroy your pathetic positions on just about everything.

You posted that it'd be awesome to see Manafort get a pardon. Why is that awesome?

[cwolff]

And now there’s the Cohen investigation. The most damaging thing that happened yesterday to Trump was not that his former lawyer alleged under oath that Trump had directed him in the commission of crimes. It was that the United States Department of Justice allowed him to enter a guilty plea whose factual basis was that Trump had directed him in the commission of a crime. That is to say that the significance of the Cohen plea is not merely that Cohen alleges that Trump had him arrange to pay hush money to a porn star and a model in a specific effort to influence the election with illegal corporate contributions. It’s that the Justice Department believes this allegation to be true and is willing to proceed criminally against Cohen on that basis. That’s ominous for both Trump personally and for his campaign. What’s more, this particular front in the war is not under Mueller, who spun it off to the U.S. attorney’s office in the Southern District of New York. This is not, in other words, a problem Trump can fire his way out of. The SDNY has a lot more than 17 prosecutors; and whether they are angry or not, Democrats or not, they are not going away.

This would seem to defy the idea that what trump did was legal no matter what Rudy and Dershowitz say. Trumps own Justice department believes he's a criminal and have taken action publicly.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/the-presidents-situation-gets-worse/568135/

[Androidpk]

Trump thinks he can take over the case.. :lol:

[cwolff]

National Enquirer boss David Pecker (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/23/national-enquirer-david-pecker-told-prosecutors-trump-knew-of-cohen-payments-report.html) reportedly gets federal immunity in Michael Cohen case
-AMI chairman Daivd Pecker gave prosecutors information about President Donald Trump's knowledge of payments his ex-lawyer Michael Cohen made to women alleging affairs with Trump, The Wall Street Journal reports.
-Pecker, along with both his company and the Trump Organization, had reportedly been subpoenaed by federal investigators in April.
-Cohen pleaded guilty Tuesday to eight criminal charges including tax fraud and campaign finance violations, and could face years in prison.

Oh boy. Trump got another flipper to deal with

[time4fun]

The fact that the indictment referenced all of these other co-conspirators but didn't charge them was sort of a big elephant in the room.

Now it's making sense.

I do wonder about the Trump Org though. They seem to be in A LOT of trouble right now as they always seem to be involved in all of the dirty business. Weisselberg specifically. I wonder if he's cooperating as well?

[Androidpk]

Weisselberg is no Manafort. He's not going to fall on his sword for Trump.

[Androidpk]

Oh boy. Trump got another flipper to deal with

https://i.imgur.com/YToBZKu.jpg

[SHAFT]

Trumps pecker keeps getting him in trouble

[Androidpk]

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. Unless they've done a good job.

[Tgo01]

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. Unless they've done a good job.

And Hillary should totally go to jail too, right?

[cwolff]

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. Unless they've done a good job.

Yes, I think that was in the original draft of the constitution. There was also some language about "if the president gives himself an A+ then..." but they dropped it because it was considered self evident.

[Androidpk]

Yes, I think that was in the original draft of the constitution. There was also some language about "if the president gives himself an A+ then..." but they dropped it because it was considered self evident.

Then he gets 2 scoops of ice cream for dessert because he's been a good boy.

[SHAFT]

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. Unless they've done a good job.

And by good job he means that he hasn’t completely fucked things up.

[Androidpk]

Rudy Giuliani, the former federal prosecutor and current mouthpiece for President Trump, intimated Thursday that Paul Manafort isn’t really a criminal — even though the former Trump campaign chairman has been convicted on tax and bank fraud charges and will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

“It’s a white collar crime, who the heck is in jeopardy, the American public?” Giuliani told the Daily News. “I have as much sympathy for Manafort as the President does.”

Giuliani even said Manafort’s case could have been resolved as a “civil tax case.”

[time4fun]

...The rule of law party at its finest.

[cwolff]

...The rule of law party at its finest.

They're also the Moral Majority. LMAO

[Avaia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QodGxD19_as

[~Rocktar~]

Rudy Giuliani, the former federal prosecutor and current mouthpiece for President Trump, intimated Thursday that Paul Manafort isn’t really a criminal — even though the former Trump campaign chairman has been convicted on tax and bank fraud charges and will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

“It’s a white collar crime, who the heck is in jeopardy, the American public?” Giuliani told the Daily News. “I have as much sympathy for Manafort as the President does.”

Giuliani even said Manafort’s case could have been resolved as a “civil tax case.”

So if tax evasion is such a bad thing and your implied premise here is that it is, when is Al Sharpton going to trial?

[cwolff]

Rudy Giuliani, the former federal prosecutor and current mouthpiece for President Trump, intimated Thursday that Paul Manafort isn’t really a criminal — even though the former Trump campaign chairman has been convicted on tax and bank fraud charges and will likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

“It’s a white collar crime, who the heck is in jeopardy, the American public?” Giuliani told the Daily News. “I have as much sympathy for Manafort as the President does.”

Giuliani even said Manafort’s case could have been resolved as a “civil tax case.”

I was looking up that quote and came across this article from a former employee of Rudy's.


I remember well my first day as an AUSA (https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2018/08/03/my-mentor-rudy-guiliani-is-unrecognizable-to-me/?slreturn=20180723214358). I was instructed to arrive at 9 a.m. sharp and to bring whomever I wished with me to meet with Rudy in his private office prior to his swearing me in. I brought my beaming parents. Old Brooklynites, they listened eagerly as Rudy regaled them with the story of the Podell prosecution and then gave them what I later learned was one of his stock speeches concerning the proliferation of, and the need to aggressively investigate and prosecute, white collar crime. There is enough fraud going on on Wall Street, said Rudy, that if all of my assistants devoted all of their time to it, it might not even make a dent. But, he said, we have to try. And we have to use the same tools we’ve been using on the mob and drug king-pins—undercover operatives, wiretaps, and search warrants—on white collar crooks. It was high time, he said, to take the gloves off when it came to fighting “crime in the suites.”

[Tgo01]

We might as well just rename this part of the forums the "cwolff, Androidpk, and time4fun circle jerk."

[cwolff]

So if tax evasion is such a bad thing and your implied premise here is that it is, when is Al Sharpton going to trial?

Bring the case and put Al Sharpton behind bars. No one here's going to stop you. Get Hillary while you're at it. Make the case, god knows you have support within the executive branch of government for it, and put them in jail.

[SHAFT]

Bring the case and put Al Sharpton behind bars. No one here's going to stop you. Get Hillary while you're at it. Make the case, god knows you have support within the executive branch of government for it, and put them in jail.

WhatAboutism

The Trump Org is about to be dismantled, Trump has been implicated in 2 felonies, the one person (pecker((lol))) who holds all of trumps dirty secrets got immunity, and we haven’t even heard all of the Cohen or Omarosa tapes.

This has all been worth it. This has all been worth watching trump and co implode.

I doubt trump voters have the ability to recognize how stupid they are, but the Democrat that wins in 2020 is going to be far worse to racists (republicans) than HRC was.

[time4fun]

The irony of the "what about" response is that the person using the rhetorical device is effectively trying to have it both ways: they simultaneously want a certain behavior to be okay for Trump but a really bad thing for <insert random Democrat distraction>.

[Tgo01]

I doubt trump voters have the ability to recognize how stupid they are, but the Democrat that wins in 2020 is going to be far worse to racists (republicans) than HRC was.

Your boy cwolff here said earlier that he sees no problem with a black government subjugating a white minority population. What's that about who are the real racists again?

[SHAFT]

Your boy cwolff here said earlier that he sees no problem with a black government subjugating a white minority population. What's that about who are the real racists again?

I couldn’t care less what you have to say. You’re a blackhole.

[Tgo01]

I couldn’t care less what you have to say. You’re a blackhole.

Democrats always get so uncomfortable when you point out how overtly racist another Democrat is.

[SHAFT]

The irony of the "what about" response is that the person using the rhetorical device is effectively trying to have it both ways: they simultaneously want a certain behavior to be okay for Trump but a really bad thing for <insert random Democrat distraction>.

Absolutely. Look at any of the GOP who are still in office from the Bill Clinton saga: truth is the most important thing and it must be upheld, so let’s impeach Bill Clinton!

This trump thing is a million times worse.

[cwolff]

WhatAboutism

The Trump Org is about to be dismantled, Trump has been implicated in 2 felonies, the one person (pecker((lol))) who holds all of trumps dirty secrets got immunity, and we haven’t even heard all of the Cohen or Omarosa tapes.

This has all been worth it. This has all been worth watching trump and co implode.

I doubt trump voters have the ability to recognize how stupid they are, but the Democrat that wins in 2020 is going to be far worse to racists (republicans) than HRC was.


I am skeptical the Dems have the killer instinct to do this. Not a one of them seems to have it in them to get in there and fight. Avenatti is right about this when he says, ""I think there's a huge appetite within the party for a fighter, I think the party has yearned for a fighter — a fighter for good, if you will — for a significant period of time. And for many, I'm probably seen as that individual."


I hope they do find someone though and the combination of trumps fuck ups with a decent candidate lead to a dem win in the mid terms and 2020. If they can hold those majorities I hope they pack the hell out of the Supreme court. Get it up 15 judges, all dems, all under 40. LOL I'd laugh my ass off.

[Avaia]

The irony of the "what about" response is that the person using the rhetorical device is effectively trying to have it both ways: they simultaneously want a certain behavior to be okay for Trump but a really bad thing for <insert random Democrat distraction>.

It's just kind of a Pavlovian response at this point, I think.

I was talking to an old friend of mine the other day about how one after another Trump associates were pleading guilty and/or going to jail. His response? "Sounds just like the Clintons!"

I just might have gotten through to him when I asked him what he would think if every time the Clintons were brought up someone said "Well, what about Nixon?" or "Well, what about Iran/Contra?" or "Well, what about McCarthy?"

...but time will tell.

[Tgo01]

It's just kind of a Pavlovian response at this point, I think.

I was talking to an old friend of mine the other day about how one after another Trump associates were pleading guilty and/or going to jail. His response? "Sounds just like the Clintons!"

I just might have gotten through to him when I asked him what he would think if every time the Clintons were brought up someone said "Well, what about Nixon?" or "Well, what about Iran/Contra?" or "Well, what about McCarthy?"

...but time will tell.

Yeah but Hillary was literally the only other real contender for president in 2016, so it seems like a rather fair comparison. People are acting like we would have a much better president if Hillary had won. Not really, she was garbage. She turned most of the left into blathering fools screaming about Russians hiding under their beds because she lost an election because she doesn't know how to lose gracefully.

[cwolff]

Yeah but Hillary was literally the only other real contender for president in 2016, so it seems like a rather fair comparison. People are acting like we would have a much better president if Hillary had won. Not really, she was garbage. She turned most of the left into blathering fools screaming about Russians hiding under their beds because she lost an election because she doesn't know how to lose gracefully.

Oh man, for a second I thought you were going to be lucid and reasonable but by the end of your short paragraph you'd fallen right off the cliff into some conspiracy fueled logical death spiral.

You just kind of proved Avaia's point.

[Avaia]

Yeah but Hillary was literally the only other real contender for president in 2016, so it seems like a rather fair comparison.

I realize it may seem that way, but it isn't.

The subject of the relative merit or lack thereof of Hilary Rodham Clinton(and by association, in my experience, people usually want to talk about Bill too), and the subject of the relative merit or lack thereof of Donald Trump and Associates, are two entirely separate issues.

You(general you, I see this sort of thing almost every single day at work) can't bring up the one when what is being discussed is the other, or it is just an attempt at deflection.

[Tgo01]

Oh man, for a second I thought you were going to be lucid and reasonable but by the end of your short paragraph you'd fallen right off the cliff into some conspiracy fueled logical death spiral.

You just kind of proved Avaia's point.

Oh man, for a second there I thought you were going to finally say it's wrong for a government to oppress it's own citizens based on the color of their skin. Guess I'll have to keep waiting ;)

[Tgo01]

You(general you, I see this sort of thing almost every single day at work) can't bring up the one when what is being discussed is the other, or it is just an attempt at deflection.

Sure I can.

Hillary! Hillary! Hillary! LALALAALALALAALALA! I can't hear you!

[Avaia]

Sure I can.

Hillary! Hillary! Hillary! LALALAALALALAALALA! I can't hear you!


:spin:

[time4fun]

Oh man, for a second I thought you were going to be lucid and reasonable but by the end of your short paragraph you'd fallen right off the cliff into some conspiracy fueled logical death spiral.

You just kind of proved Avaia's point.

Do you think it ever dawns on them that every Federal investigation into Russia and the Trump campaign as started by Republicans?

[cwolff]

Do you think it ever dawns on them that every Federal investigation into Russia and the Trump campaign as started by Republicans?

I think it does and it causes them discomfort so they do the things we see here. The deflections, the personal insults etc... They lash out. There's a lot of abuse psychology parallels with this stuff. Think if you had a loved one who was in an abusive relationship and you tried to talk some sense into him/her. That person would lash out at you and run back to the abuser who now has even more control.

Anyway, judging from Hunter saying it's a democrat Justice Dept. and TG saying HRC placed Russians in our worldview because Jedi Mind Trick, then no I don't think they realize Republicans are running this stuff.

[time4fun]

I think it does and it causes them discomfort so they do the things we see here. The deflections, the personal insults etc... They lash out. There's a lot of abuse psychology parallels with this stuff. Think if you had a loved one who was in an abusive relationship and you tried to talk some sense into him/her. That person would lash out at you and run back to the abuser who now has even more control.

Anyway, judging from Hunter saying it's a democrat Justice Dept. and TG saying HRC placed Russians in our worldview because Jedi Mind Trick, then no I don't think they realize Republicans are running this stuff.

It's funny you should use that analogy- I've been thinking a lot about the way their relationship with Trump is a politically abusive relationship. And it really does seem to be playing out in a similar way.

[time4fun]

Fascinating article by Slate (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/paul-manafort-will-likely-go-to-jail-if-trump-pardons-him-thanks-to-a-lone-holdout-juror.html) today that brought up some interesting things I wasn't aware of and a really compelling point about the favor that lone juror did for Mueller:

The big takeaways:

1) New York State's Double Jeopardy law was amended a few years back to exempt tax fraud- which means that Manafort can also be tried by NY for the same tax fraud charges he was just convicted on. (I wasn't aware of this exemption)

2) There was also an important reminder in here that filing a Federal tax return and filing a State tax return are two different acts, but to lie on your Federal form you also have to lie on your State form. So actually there are plenty of New York State charges waiting for Manafort should they decide to pursue them.

3) Double jeopardy laws don't cover mistrials. Those 10 charges included Bank Fraud in a California bank- which could just be tried as a state crime now.


Basically, Mueller's team did a decent job of mitigating the impact of a Trump Pardon, and that lone hold-out Juror may have done the rest of the work for them.

Manafort may truly have no actual way out at this point.

[cwolff]

It's funny you should use that analogy- I've been thinking a lot about the way their relationship with Trump is a politically abusive relationship. And it really does seem to be playing out in a similar way.

Yes, lots of the same language but I am assuming that's consistent with gaslighting whether you gaslight a country or one individual.


Fascinating article by Slate (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/08/paul-manafort-will-likely-go-to-jail-if-trump-pardons-him-thanks-to-a-lone-holdout-juror.html) today that brought up some interesting things I wasn't aware of and a really compelling point about the favor that lone juror did for Mueller:

The big takeaways:

1) New York State's Double Jeopardy law was amended a few years back to exempt tax fraud- which means that Manafort can also be tried by NY for the same tax fraud charges he was just convicted on. (I wasn't aware of this exemption)

2) There was also an important reminder in here that filing a Federal tax return and filing a State tax return are two different acts, but to lie on your Federal form you also have to lie on your State form. So actually there are plenty of New York State charges waiting for Manafort should they decide to pursue them.

3) Double jeopardy laws don't cover mistrials. Those 10 charges included Bank Fraud in a California bank- which could just be tried as a state crime now.


Basically, Mueller's team did a decent job of mitigating the impact of a Trump Pardon, and that lone hold-out Juror may have done the rest of the work for them.

Manafort may truly have no actual way out at this point.

It's great. We've got SDNY, NY Attorney Generals office and possible Manhattan all pulling on the trump org and trump foundation threads. I bet it all unravels.

[time4fun]

I doubt they'll have any trouble getting New York, Virginia, and California to all do their part on the state charges for Manafort. If Trump is talking about Pardons, then it's pretty clear Manafort knows A LOT.

If they all start indicting Manafort- then the unraveling will have begun.

[SHAFT]

It’s unravelling now.

When the president is tweeting at 1am about witch hunts and no collusion, barely a day after his attorney implicated him in 2 felonies and his campaign chairmen was found guilty of 8 felonies, you could say the trump empire was crumbling.

I could go on and on. It’s glorious.

[Wrathbringer]

It’s unravelling now.

When the president is tweeting at 1am about witch hunts and no collusion, barely a day after his attorney implicated him in 2 felonies and his campaign chairmen was found guilty of 8 felonies, you could say the trump empire was crumbling.

I could go on and on. It’s glorious.

Quoted for when trump serves out his term and then wins re-election.

[Wrathbringer]

Do you think it ever dawns on them that every Federal investigation into Russia and the Trump campaign as started by Republicans?

Here's the thing: No one cares.

[Androidpk]

Your boy cwolff here said earlier that he sees no problem with a black government subjugating a white minority population. What's that about who are the real racists again?

Boy you're really latching onto that one :lol:

[Androidpk]

Speaking of gaslighting you should all listen to Gaslit Nation.

[time4fun]

Boy you're really latching onto that one :lol:

Why am I not surprised he's latching on to a White Nationalist talking point regurgitated by his favorite "Not racist- I swear!" President?

[Methais]

I couldn’t care less what you have to say. You’re a blackhole.

Oh sure use black as an insult.

Racist.

Reported to cwolff's wife's boyfriend.

http://gifimage.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/black-guys-freaking-out-gif-8.gif

[cwolff]

Weisselberg is no Manafort. He's not going to fall on his sword for Trump.

Looks like you were right about Weisselberg.


Allen Weisselberg, Longtime Trump Organization CFO, Is Granted Immunity in Cohen Probe
Weisselberg earlier this year was subpoenaed to testify before grand jury
By Rebecca Ballhaus and Nicole Hong
Updated Aug. 24, 2018 10:48 a.m. ET

Allen Weisselberg, President Trump’s longtime financial gatekeeper, was granted immunity by federal prosecutors for providing information about Michael Cohen in the criminal investigation into hush-money payments for two women during the 2016 presidential campaign, according to people familiar with the matter.

[time4fun]

Looks like you were right about Weisselberg.

This is probably the single worst thing that could have happened to Trump. This is worse than Cohen.

[cwolff]

This is probably the single worst thing that could have happened to Trump. This is worse than Cohen.

I do hope so.

[Androidpk]

NY is gonna press criminal charges soon against the Trump Organization.

[SHAFT]

Looks like you were right about Weisselberg.

The CFO of the trump org got immunity.

The Manhattan district attorney’s office is considering charges against the trump org and 2 senior execs.

I get the unhinged trump behavior. I totally get it.

[SHAFT]

We’re going to have a Bob Mueller holiday when this is all said and done.

[cwolff]

The CFO of the trump org got immunity.

The Manhattan district attorney’s office is considering charges against the trump org and 2 senior execs.

I get the unhinged trump behavior. I totally get it.

So Eric, Don Jr and Weisselberg were in charge of the trump organization after trump won. Is that right? Kind of makes you wonder who the 2 senior execs are. LOL

[time4fun]

NY is gonna press criminal charges soon against the Trump Organization.

Maybe. It's a whole different set of crimes when it's a corporation, they're often less serious (#Amurica), and establishing intent is a whole different beast altogether. Prosecutors also don't really like to go in and cost a lot of people their jobs.

They may well just decide to use Trump Org to come down on specific individuals. *cough*

But there've been rumors of serious money laundering activities going on in Trump Org for a loooong time (Way before the election). So I may be eating crow soon on my wishy-washiness here.

[SHAFT]

Maybe. It's a whole different set of crimes when it's a corporation, they're often less serious (#Amurica), and establishing intent is a whole different beast altogether. Prosecutors also don't really like to go in and cost a lot of people their jobs.

They may well just decide to use Trump Org to come down on specific individuals. *cough*

But there've been rumors of serious money laundering activities going on in Trump Org for a loooong time (Way before the election). So I may be eating crow soon on my wishy-washiness here.

Great article about the trump money laundering: https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

Author just put out a new book with more details.

At the heart of all of this, I always felt this was what trump was most frightened about.

[Tgo01]

Boy you're really latching onto that one :lol:

Why wouldn't I latch onto cwolff defending a black government oppressing a white minority population? That's gold right there, gonna mine it for all it's worth.

[cwolff]

Why wouldn't I latch onto cwolff defending a black government oppressing a white minority population? That's gold right there, gonna mine it for all it's worth.

Well, for one thing, what you claim never happened. I didn't defend or comment really either way on the problems facing the government of S. Africa regarding this.

I did mention these things and you are avoiding them entirely while lying about something else. I think you have a sickness:
Trump getting policy from Fox News
White Supremacist talking points making it through Tucker Carlson directly to the POTUS (you are also pushing the white supremacist propoganda)
That there is no scourge of white farmers being killed. It's fake news

[cwolff]

Great article about the trump money laundering: https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

Author just put out a new book with more details.

At the heart of all of this, I always felt this was what trump was most frightened about.

Didn't they bust a full on Russian money laundering ring which was running directly out of trump tower?

[time4fun]

Great article about the trump money laundering: https://newrepublic.com/article/143586/trumps-russian-laundromat-trump-tower-luxury-high-rises-dirty-money-international-crime-syndicate

Author just put out a new book with more details.

At the heart of all of this, I always felt this was what trump was most frightened about.

He's definitely terrified of this. I'm guessing he very foolishly assumed that once he was President, he could squash any investigations into Trump Org.

But his obsession with Pardoning Manafort tells me that he's also freaked out about Russia.

This just isn't going to end well for him. Even if these investigations stretch on beyond 2020- no one is going to stop them. It's highly unlikely anyone is going to start a new investigation after he's gone- Trump is the first President since Hoover to try to use the DoJ to go after political opponents. We just don't do that in our country.

But anything started before or during his tenure in office- that's fair game. And it's going to end badly.

[time4fun]

Didn't they bust a full on Russian money laundering ring which was running directly out of trump tower?

Yup.

[Tgo01]

Well, for one thing, what you claim never happened. I didn't defend or comment really either way on the problems facing the government of S. Africa regarding this.

Oh, cwolff, your ability to not care about minorities being oppressed by their own government is quite the feat. You should be proud.

[cwolff]

Oh, cwolff, your ability to not care about minorities being oppressed by their own government is quite the feat. You should be proud.

You're descending into full on internet troll. What do you get out of it? What drives a man to log on and lie the way you do? BTW: How old are you? I've always thought you were young but you can't be that young.

[Tgo01]

You're descending into full on internet troll. What do you get out of it? What drives a man to log on and lie the way you do? BTW: How old are you? I've always thought you were young but you can't be that young.

Oh I'm lying? Well, cwolff, here is your chance to tell us all what you think about a government seizing land by force from its minority population without compensating them. Let's clear the air.

[Androidpk]

You're descending into full on internet troll. What do you get out of it? What drives a man to log on and lie the way you do? BTW: How old are you? I've always thought you were young but you can't be that young.

He's melting down alongside Trump. Wasting time trying to reason with him.

[Tgo01]

He's melting down alongside Trump. Wasting time trying to reason with him.

I really thought not even Androidpk or time4fun would defend cwolff minimizing a government oppressing their own minority population, but you two managed to surprise me yet again ;)

[cwolff]

Is Manafort in plea deal negotiations for his second trial? I'm seeing something about that, but looks like it broke down.

[Androidpk]

Is Manafort in plea deal negotiations for his second trial? I'm seeing something about that, but looks like it broke down.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/manafort-sought-deal-in-next-trial-but-talks-broke-down-1535404819

[time4fun]

This has been the longest day at work ever, but thanks PK- I haven't had a chance to even look at the news.

The most interesting thing about this is it suggests that Mueller may be at a point where he no longer feels like he needs Manafort. And it means Manafort is at a point where he no longer feels like waiting for a Pardon from Trump is his safest bet.

[ClydeR]

Should Trump fire McGahn so he can pardon Manafort? He should do it this weekend when nobody is watching. Saturday night would be a good time.


Two sources told me that Trump continues to raise the possibility of a pardon for Manafort, his former campaign chairman. Trump has been clashing with White House counsel Don McGahn, who, sources said, is strongly against granting Manafort a pardon. (A lawyer for McGahn did not respond to a request for comment.) Trump has told people he’s considering bringing in a new lawyer to draft a Manafort pardon, if McGahn won’t do it. “He really at this point does not care,” a former official said. “He would rather fight the battle. He doesn’t want to do anything that would cede executive authority.”

More... (https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/08/donald-trump-nuts-rejects-war-council-intervention-goes-it-alone)