Presidential Debates 2024

[Suppressed Poet]

This is something both parties want to avoid at all costs.

Facts.

Also it’s easy to keep us divided when retards like ClydeR believe that wealthy people owe him something and that it is morally justified to steal from them. What baffles me is the DNC sold luxury suites at the Chicago convention that STARTED at $500k. He thinks those rich people donating to that much to the Democrat party are doing so to get taxed more and receive more strict regulations & government oversight on their business?

[Suppressed Poet]

I used to think that, but there are a few things. Say the tax rate was flat 20% across the board. You have one guy making 30k a year, another guy making 1 million a year, yeah, that guy making a million is paying a lot more, but who cares, he still has 800k a year after that. That tax rate hurts that guy making 30k a lot more.

The guy making $30k a year is struggling regardless of paying 20% tax or not, and needs to find better employment to earn more.

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but the progressive tax system is worse. We know that super rich don’t actually pay the higher tax rate today. There are exemptions and loopholes. Rich people have the means and motivation to exploit those exemptions. On the other end, the reality is that most poor people receive much more in benefits vs. the little they pay in taxes. The real tax burden falls on the middle class which continues to shrink. We’ve created a tax system that encourages division & class warfare, and it’s the middle class that suffers the most.

[Shaps]

I used to think that, but there are a few things. Say the tax rate was flat 20% across the board. You have one guy making 30k a year, another guy making 1 million a year, yeah, that guy making a million is paying a lot more, but who cares, he still has 800k a year after that. That tax rate hurts that guy making 30k a lot more.

I fully understand where you are coming from with this, but each and every person should pay in. A flat tax (why I went with 18%, not higher, and the # could be worked out by the accountants) is across the board.

Only making 30k? Go make more, but you're still going to pay.

Making 1 mil+? Go make more, but you're still going to pay.

The idea being (and yes there would be growing pains), the Government is not taking more from one person or the other. The Government is getting out of the way of people earning, and wanting to earn more for themselves and their family.

Just because someone makes less, which sucks, doesn't exempt them from their "societal responsibilities"... just as with someone making more, shouldn't be "stolen from" simply because they are earning more.

Transparent, no gimmicks, and no administrative state stepping on people year after year... In the long run, IMO, better.

Course I'm open to debate.

[Gelston]

The guy making $30k a year is struggling regardless of paying 20% tax or not, and needs to find better employment to earn more.

I’m not saying it’s perfect, but the progressive tax system is worse. We know that super rich don’t actually pay the higher tax rate today. There are exemptions and loopholes. Rich people have the means and motivation to exploit those exemptions. On the other end, the reality is that most poor people receive much more in benefits vs. the little they pay in taxes. The real tax burden falls on the middle class which continues to shrink. We’ve created a tax system that encourages division & class warfare, and it’s the middle class that suffers the most.

I'm sure they'd like to, but there are always going to be low paying jobs and some people will always be stuck in them. Every job can't be a winner. That said, I am not against something existing as a sort of an adjusted flat tax. Maybe graduated tax rates up to the median salary, and then a flat tax on all pay after that. So, low taxes on the first 45k (which is the median in the US), and then flat on everything after.

[Gelston]

I fully understand where you are coming from with this, but each and every person should pay in. A flat tax (why I went with 18%, not higher, and the # could be worked out by the accountants) is across the board.

Only making 30k? Go make more, but you're still going to pay.

Making 1 mil+? Go make more, but you're still going to pay.

The idea being (and yes there would be growing pains), the Government is not taking more from one person or the other. The Government is getting out of the way of people earning, and wanting to earn more for themselves and their family.

Just because someone makes less, which sucks, doesn't exempt them from their "societal responsibilities"... just as with someone making more, shouldn't be "stolen from" simply because they are earning more.

Transparent, no gimmicks, and no administrative state stepping on people year after year... In the long run, IMO, better.

Course I'm open to debate.

You aren't getting any taxes if the person can't survive.

Quite frankly, I'd also be cool with completely dropping all income taxes and sticking it all into sales taxes. Low as fuck on food and essentials, but more on everything else.

[Suppressed Poet]

I'm sure they'd like to, but there are always going to be low paying jobs and some people will always be stuck in them. Every job can't be a winner. That said, I am not against something existing as a sort of an adjusted flat tax. Maybe graduated tax rates up to the median salary, and then a flat tax on all pay after that. So, low taxes on the first 45k (which is the median in the US), and then flat on everything after.

Agreed on the low paying jobs part. Please don’t take what I say as disparaging poor people. I’m just saying that it sucks to make $30k no matter what they pay in taxes.

On your progressive tax model up to $45k or so and then a flat tax rate after that (removing exemptions), I find that to be an amicable compromise. Sounds good to me.

Edit: The point being that after reaching the income level that exceeds the line of poverty, everyone pays the same rate together.

[Shaps]

You aren't getting any taxes if the person can't survive.

Quite frankly, I'd also be cool with completely dropping all income taxes and sticking it all into sales taxes. Low as fuck on food and essentials, but more on everything else.

I'm open to suggestions definitely.

I'd be okay with a VAT tax style system 100%, if we were a smaller country. Due to just geographic, world involvement, and baseline standard of living currently in the Country... I'm not sure a VAT would resolve it all.

I also recommended a 3% "luxury tax" (ie. a VAT Tax), on top of the standard Federal Rate.

Maybe flip it... so we go with a say, 9% Federal Tax rate that all pay into... and a 15% VAT tax on luxury goods?

I could see maybe the "luxury tax" only applying if over a certain % of income per year?

Mainly, my overarching concept is to ensure everyone pays in at the Federal Level... for "shared federal responsibilities" that everyone benefits from... Though this would also require slashing 50% of the Federal Government, as I think they have their hands in too many pies as is... ie. National Defense, Federal Highway System, Judicial responsibilities with certain aspects to ensure even business practices, etc.... Besides that, 75% of things should be handled at the State level IMO.

I think you and I are sort of working towards a common "theme", though the details are where things have to be hashed out. And I'm all for differing ideas and concepts.

[kutter]

I look at Norway and Sweden, two countries the left lauds as socialist even though their respective leaders have come out and clearly stated they are capitalist with heavy social programs. Now i forget which is which but one of those countries taxes start at 22% and the other I believe is 32% and EVERYONE pays those rates to start. Then they have additional taxes on higher earners. Frankly I think we need a flat 15-18%, do your taxes on a postcard, and abolish the IRS, but that will never happen.

The main reason I want it is because unless you have skin in the game, ie. actually paying for the government instead of paying nothing and in a lot of cases actually getting money back they never put in, they could care less how much money the federal government spends since it will never impact them, that is until the whole house of cards collapses and it does.

[Gelston]

I look at Norway and Sweden, two countries the left lauds as socialist even though their respective leaders have come out and clearly stated they are capitalist with heavy social programs. Now i forget which is which but one of those countries taxes start at 22% and the other I believe is 32% and EVERYONE pays those rates to start. Then they have additional taxes on higher earners. Frankly I think we need a flat 15-18%, do your taxes on a postcard, and abolish the IRS, but that will never happen.

The main reason I want it is because unless you have skin in the game, ie. actually paying for the government instead of paying nothing and in a lot of cases actually getting money back they never put in, they could care less how much money the federal government spends since it will never impact them, that is until the whole house of cards collapses and it does.

Norway is starting a universal basic income this year, 22k a person per year. That basically abolishes the lower income tax rate.

[Neveragain]

Norway is starting a universal basic income this year, 22k a person per year. That basically abolishes the lower income tax rate.

Norway has 5.5 million citizens with a homogenized economy.

We 350 million citizens where 22k will pay rent for a closet in some areas and 2 bedroom apartment in others.

If everyone is given 22k, 22k = 0.