Israel at War?

[Solkern]

Buy the onboard Wi-Fi you cheap bastard! I get it free with my Southwest card and I travel way less than you.

Also, I’m with the others and don’t know what you are talking about with Ukraine. There was the USSR, and the Russians monarchy & empire that has been around since the 16th century, and before that all I know are the nations that can form Russia in EU4 like Muscovy. Not calling you a liar but I’m interested to read what you share on the subject.

These SEA airlines don’t even have reclining seats!!

Here’s a little bit for you

From Dima Vorobiev, former propagandist for the USSR.

Ukraine was building churches in the 9th century. Russia was still mostly woods and very tribal. Ukraine had a King who's children married into the Romanoff line, the bloodline for that Ukrainian king still exists in Ukraine, the same cannot be said of the Romanoffs'

When did Ukraine become part of
Russia?
"When did Ukraine become part of Russia?"
In the strict sense of words, Ukraine has never been
"part of Russia."
It's complicated
In our books, in the mid-17th century, Ukraine
"joined" pre-imperial Russia. The thing is, at the time, it was considered a "union" headed by the House of Romanov.
The territories of what is now central Ukraine sought the protection of the Tsar in Moscow. But they enjoyed a degree of self-rule. Only over the next few decades were they stripped of the rest of their sovereignty and became as powerless as the ethnically Russian territories.

Confusing designations
Yet, even then, everyone accepted them being separate from the Russian heartland by keeping the designation of Maloróssiya ("Little Russia," or as the Greeks used to look at it, Mikod Pwoid,
"Beachhead Russia") as opposed to Velikorossiya ("Greater Russia," from Greek Mayáln 'Pwoia,
"Extended Russia").
We retained this beachhead meaning for "little" from seafaring Greeks in modern Russian. For example, one of the memoirs of Soviet ruler Leonid Brezhnev was titled "Little Land" (Malaya Zemlya).
It's about a beachhead created and defended by the Soviet army at the Black Sea in WW2. We had a solemn song about it ? with the line "Little Land is a great land."
No bearing on property rights
In other words, the House of Romanov considered them the same kind of property as Russia proper, the Baltics, White Russia, Turkic territories along the Volga River etc. And mind you, the Imperial state itself before 1917 was a property of the House of Romanov!
But doesn't the fact of being the property of the nominally "Russian" empire (our last Tsars were ethnically German) make Ukraine "Russian"?

Our side of the story

According to the consensus formed by the political class in Moscow, it does.
We ruled over them-"we" being aristocrats in the imperial government's service many decades ago who spoke Russian at home and called themselves Russians, right? Logically, the Ukrainians shouldn't object to us, some 140-million-strong nation of the 21st century, claiming Ukraine as "historically part of Russia". President Putin put forward a strong case for it in his seminal article from last year.
The Master's lens
However, the House of Romanov, a rightful master of both Russia and Ukraine, would strongly object to this. It would be absurd for them to accept that a bunch of their lowly commoners calling themselves a "nation" made a claim on the part of the Tzar's hard-earned property.


Kyiv (Capital of Ukraine) is 665 years older than
Moscow. "Kyiv" (Ukraine) was founded in 432 CE. in 1982 it was the 1,500th anniversary. Russia was founded in 1547. If you are talking about Modern Speaking, Ukraine was founded in 1918, and then later was annexed by the Soviet Union, and on August 24th, 1991 Ukraine got its independence, Russia got its independence in December of 1991, so Ukraine "Modernly speaking" is 4 months older than Russia. So to answer your question, Ukraine is older than Russia.

Does Russia have any historical claim to Ukraine besides when they were all in the USSR?
No, Russia ceased to exist after the Russian Revolution.
The USSR claimed that they were not a successor state to Russia to avoid having to repay debts. Any claim by Russia was therefore not transferred to the USSR.
Ukraine was a republic inside the Soviet Union.
Crimea was part of the Russian Republic before
Chrustjev had it transferred to Ukraine. According to international law, such transfers can only be protested for 50 years, which did not happen,
Since the Russian Federation is not a successor to pre-revolution Russia but to the Soviet Union they cannot refer to things happening before 1917.
So Russia does not have any valid claims to Ukraine.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

Goes into details about Kievan Rus, aka Kyiv. Russia was a breakaway region from Ukraine.

[Solkern]

A little more for you, and a good read

https://uapost.us/en/blog/in-12th-ce...oes-not-exist/

For the first time Ukraine was mentioned in the Hypatian Chronicle. Not Little Rus’ or something else, but Ukraine. Nobody heard about Moscow and Russia at that time.

The Chronicle includes several components: Lavrentian Chronicle, the Tale of Bygone Years, Chernihiv, Kyiv, Galician–Volhynian Chronicles which described the events from 860’s to 1292’s. Sources of the chronicles are diverse: Palatine chroniclers, palatine letters, ambassadors’ reports, military tales, stories of bystanders, the Greek chronicles and so on.
Ukraine is mentioned for the first time in the Tale of Igor’s Campaign against Polovtsy in 1185.

Many sources identify Kyivan Rus with Ukraine. In some versions, such as Ermolaevsky list (1189-1213 years), Ukraine is called Krajina (country), in Kyiv chronicles – Galich Ukraina.
Also, the name ‘Ukraine’ is mentioned in connection with the death of Pereyaslav Knyaz Volodymyr Glebovich, later in the description of events during Galician-Volyn Knyaz Danylo Romanovych regiment.

The myths of the Russian national consciousness suffered a new blow! First, the study of the gene pool of the Russian people, conducted by Russian scientists in 2000-2006 showed that genetically Russian are not Slavs, but true-born Finns, that have no difference from Mordovians.
According to the information from the Moscow-based Center of Lev Gumilyov, Russian scientists for the first time in history conducted Russian gene pool research and were shocked by the results! These studies also fully confirmed that the Russians are not Slavs, but only Russian-speaking Finns. Results of the mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that another Russian nearest relatives, except the Finns from Finland are Tatars: Russians are on the same genetic distance of 30 conventional units from the Tartars, which separate them from the Finns! Russian scientists ended the issue concerning myth of the ‘Slavic roots of Russians’: there is nothing from Slavs in Russians! There is only Slavic Russian language, but it has 60-70% of non-Slavic language, so Russian people are not able to understand the language of the Slavs, although the true Slav understands any language because of the similarity of Slavic languages (except Russian). There are Russians in Russia, but not Rus. There always was and will be only Kievan Rus


This really goes into the history and details or Ukraine and Russia.

[Anebriated]

This looks like it ties into the Tartary empire and the mudfloods, no?

[Solkern]

This looks like it ties into the Tartary empire and the mudfloods, no?

That’s a whole other shit storm of history haha

[Anebriated]

So digging into this a little bit, and going back a bit further, Kyiv was once the capital of Kievan Rus', a part of the Rurik dynasty(circa 862). Over time the Rurikids held titles such as Tsar of Russia, Grand Prince of Moscow, Grand Prince of Kiev, and others. The Rurik dynasty eventually was succeeded by the House of Romanov which obviously has heavy ties in Russian history. Now where the lines cross in between im not sure and would need to keep reading and cross checking dates/maps/timelines and as im a couple bourbons into the night, probably wont happen tonight.

[Anebriated]

interesting that the coin of the empire looked like this:

[Suppressed Poet]

A little more for you, and a good read

https://uapost.us/en/blog/in-12th-ce...oes-not-exist/

For the first time Ukraine was mentioned in the Hypatian Chronicle. Not Little Rus’ or something else, but Ukraine. Nobody heard about Moscow and Russia at that time.

The Chronicle includes several components: Lavrentian Chronicle, the Tale of Bygone Years, Chernihiv, Kyiv, Galician–Volhynian Chronicles which described the events from 860’s to 1292’s. Sources of the chronicles are diverse: Palatine chroniclers, palatine letters, ambassadors’ reports, military tales, stories of bystanders, the Greek chronicles and so on.
Ukraine is mentioned for the first time in the Tale of Igor’s Campaign against Polovtsy in 1185.

Many sources identify Kyivan Rus with Ukraine. In some versions, such as Ermolaevsky list (1189-1213 years), Ukraine is called Krajina (country), in Kyiv chronicles – Galich Ukraina.
Also, the name ‘Ukraine’ is mentioned in connection with the death of Pereyaslav Knyaz Volodymyr Glebovich, later in the description of events during Galician-Volyn Knyaz Danylo Romanovych regiment.

The myths of the Russian national consciousness suffered a new blow! First, the study of the gene pool of the Russian people, conducted by Russian scientists in 2000-2006 showed that genetically Russian are not Slavs, but true-born Finns, that have no difference from Mordovians.
According to the information from the Moscow-based Center of Lev Gumilyov, Russian scientists for the first time in history conducted Russian gene pool research and were shocked by the results! These studies also fully confirmed that the Russians are not Slavs, but only Russian-speaking Finns. Results of the mitochondrial DNA analysis showed that another Russian nearest relatives, except the Finns from Finland are Tatars: Russians are on the same genetic distance of 30 conventional units from the Tartars, which separate them from the Finns! Russian scientists ended the issue concerning myth of the ‘Slavic roots of Russians’: there is nothing from Slavs in Russians! There is only Slavic Russian language, but it has 60-70% of non-Slavic language, so Russian people are not able to understand the language of the Slavs, although the true Slav understands any language because of the similarity of Slavic languages (except Russian). There are Russians in Russia, but not Rus. There always was and will be only Kievan Rus


This really goes into the history and details or Ukraine and Russia.

Interesting and thank you.

So they were treated a bit differently and such, but part of the Russian Empire. I get what you’re saying about USSR and the dissolution. I don’t know man…I get how Ukrainians see it but I also don’t think it’s completely false for Russia to think it should be part of their national territory since it had been for hundreds of years.

Thing is, Putin is definitely an enemy to the United States and I would love for Ukraine to win the war & cede no territory. I don’t think that is going to happen though by the numbers. Russia has the manpower & firepower (even if a lot of it is janky Soviet shit falling apart). The United States has no formal plan or policy for this war except throwing bad money & equipment at it. If we weren’t having inflation issues and massive deficit I’d wouldn’t be as concerned. Ukraine is not an NATO member (and for good reason). It is a national security risk the longer this war drags out with a possible WW3 situation, so other than keeping the war machines busy domestically it’s in our best interest to reach peace. Putin can’t afford to lose this war and is unchallenged domestically because he is keeping the right people in Moscow happy. They will take, at minimum, the Donetsk region.

[Solkern]

Interesting and thank you.

So they were treated a bit differently and such, but part of the Russian Empire. I get what you’re saying about USSR and the dissolution. I don’t know man…I get how Ukrainians see it but I also don’t think it’s completely false for Russia to think it should be part of their national territory since it had been for hundreds of years.

With that thinking, the mongols, Italians and a ton of other countries that controlled areas for 100’s of years, can make that same exact claim?

[Anebriated]

With that thinking, the mongols, Italians and a ton of other countries that controlled areas for 100’s of years, can make that same exact claim?

Isn't that kind of the point though? where do you draw the line? You can say Ukraine dates Russia and has claim to the land, but wouldn't the others as well?

[Suppressed Poet]

With that thinking, the mongols, Italians and a ton of other countries that controlled areas for 100’s of years, can make that same exact claim?

Yes.

I’m not saying it’s right, but that’s kind of how the world works. Especially so when you have a dictator hell bent on restoring the “glory” of the nation from Soviet times, which wasn’t that long ago. At any rate, we don’t owe Ukraine anything. The decision on how much to support Ukraine in their war should be based on our own national interests, and I spelled out my reasons why that should have limits.