Tyranny of the ATF

[~Rocktar~]

But here’s the thing, it doesn’t infringe anyone at all, it makes the process longer, but it doesn’t stop you from owning a gun, does it?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

How does this law infringe or stop you from your legal right to own a gun? While I agree the process is painful and stupid, but it in no way stops you from owning a gun.

The only thing that stops you, is yourself not wanting to fill out these forms to buy from private citizens, when you can just go to a gun shop and buy it that way.

It interferes unduly with the 5th amendment right to private property. Further, there is no legislative mandate or guideline to support the administrative rule. What other piece of private property do you have to get a license to sell? Further, several bans and restrictions on sale and ownership have been struck down on the basis that that right to sell is included in the right to keep?

What other right do you have to get a license to exercise?

How much of my rights have to be sacrificed to ineffectively assuage your feelings?

[Solkern]

The real insanity of all this, do you think criminals buying or selling firearms are going to suddenly cease doing so? “Well there is a new ATF rule so I better register as a FFL to sell my stolen Glock with a full auto switch.” This is about control and registration of legal gun owners. Don’t kid yourself this is for the greater good of preventing crime or mass shootings.

I can easily go just go to https://www.armslist.com/ and buy a gun with zero checks.

[Methais]

Now you're just splitting hairs. Regulating firearms to keep them out of the hands of criminals, the unhinged, etc. meets the first test of the 2nd amendment, 'well-regulated'. That the sentence concludes with 'shall not be infringed' doesn't negate the fact the Framers intended for the federal government to regulate firearms. I'm sure someone else will agree with your argument about undue burden and take it to Court, however I don't see it being overridden on any constitutional merit.

Who do you think is in charge of said "regulating?"

I already know that your answer is "The government" but I just want to hear you say it so I can laugh at how stupid you are some more.

Like this:

[Solkern]

If I require you to register and pay a tax to exercise free speech, assembly, religion, press, etc. is that ok? It’s just making the process longer, harder, and more costly. Nobody is saying you can’t speak freely. The only thing stopping you from doing all that is you.

Can you show me anywhere in the second amendment where it talks about purchasing guns? It doesn’t.

It interferes unduly with the 5th amendment right to private property. Further, there is no legislative mandate or guideline to support the administrative rule. What other piece of private property do you have to get a license to sell? Further, several bans and restrictions on sale and ownership have been struck down on the basis that that right to sell is included in the right to keep?

What other right do you have to get a license to exercise?

How much of my rights have to be sacrificed to ineffectively assuage your feelings?

Then, guess what? We need to release all the drug dealers from prison, the police violated the 5th amendment. Those drugs were private property.

It’s not as black and white as you want it to be.

No one is restricting or banning the sale of guns, are they? Can you show me where it’s being restricted or banned? Because these changes don’t stop you from buying or owning a gun at all. All they do is make sure that as a private citizen selling a gun, the person you are selling it to, has the right to own one.

While I think the ATF is going overboard and it’s too much, but it does not infringe or stop a person who has a right to own a gun, from purchasing or own a gun at all.

[Parkbandit]

That would infringe on my first amendment right, while this doesn’t infringe on the second amendment.

Did you really just post this?

Just to reiterate your position:

SP: "Register your gun, pay a special tax and give future permission to federal agents to search your home and you can own your gun"
Soykern: "THAT DOESN'T INFRINGE ON YOUR 2nd AMENDMENT RIGHT! IT'S JUST A LITTLE INCONVENIENCE!"
SP: "Register your post, pay a special tax and give future permission to federal agents to search your home and you can say what you want"
Soykern: "THAT INFRINGES ON MY 1ST AMENDMENT RIGHT!"

[Methais]

But here’s the thing, it doesn’t infringe anyone at all, it makes the process longer, but it doesn’t stop you from owning a gun, does it?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

How does this law infringe or stop you from your legal right to own a gun? While I agree the process is painful and stupid, but it in no way stops you from owning a gun.

The only thing that stops you, is yourself not wanting to fill out these forms to buy from private citizens, when you can just go to a gun shop and buy it that way.

What do you think definition of the word "infringe" actually is? Because everything you just described with it making the process take longer, is painful, etc. is obvious infringement.

[Parkbandit]

I can easily go just go to https://www.armslist.com/ and buy a gun with zero checks.

Try.

Buy a gun on this site without using your real name or address.

[Parkbandit]

What do you think definition of the word "infringe" actually is? Because everything you just described with it making the process take longer, is painful, etc. is obvious infringement.

"It's just an inconvenience.. it's not infringing." -Soykern

[Methais]

Can you show me anywhere in the second amendment where it talks about purchasing guns? It doesn’t.

Oh ok. So if Person A just gives Person B a gun after Person B made a voluntary donation, that's ok then because it's technically not a sale. Right?

No one is restricting or banning the sale of guns, are they? Can you show me where it’s being restricted or banned? Because these changes don’t stop you from buying or owning a gun at all. All they do is make sure that as a private citizen selling a gun, the person you are selling it to, has the right to own one.

So you don't get the word "restrict" either.

While I think the ATF is going overboard and it’s too much, but it does not infringe or stop a person who has a right to own a gun, from purchasing or own a gun at all.

How so, when you keep saying they're not infringing on anything?

What specifically are they doing that you consider "too much" that also isn't them infringing on anything?

[Solkern]

What do you think definition of the word "infringe" actually is? Because everything you just described with it making the process take longer, is painful, etc. is obvious infringement.

Can I just go to a store and buy a gun? I can. This makes the process for buying a gun from a private citizen have more steps, but it doesn’t stop or infringe on your right to own or buy a gun, as like I said, I can simply go to a store and buy one.
Oh no! But I want to buy from this guy, and it’s more difficult! Is that your argument?