Trump Indicted in Georgia

[Suppressed Poet]

Let me clarify a bit, you don’t need to give a “direct order” to tell someone to attack. Let’s imagine I’m the leader of an armed biker gang, and I go up my crew at the bar and say, Yo, these fuckers disrespected me, let’s go talk to them. You know damn well, my biker gang would roll up, heavily armed and ready for war. Now, let’s imagine there was a shooting, I didn’t tell them to grab their guns, or we are going to fight, but my intention was clear to them but maybe to someone outside of the gang, who heard me say that, they didn’t think this would happen based on my words, nor did I ever tell them to directly do what I wanted them to do.

An angry group of armed men, who have undying support for Trump, believe every word he says and take things to extreme, and in some cases believe him to be their god, (this would be his gang) when Trump says let’s meet up and let’s head to the Capitol, we need to take back our country, and fight like hell or whatever, much like my biker gang, those people are going to arm up and prepare to “take back our country” and “fight like hell” in whichever way they are fit, and they will take it to an extreme.

Trump has a history of extremely fiery speech, that can be taken in any number of ways, such as telling the proud boys, “Stand back, and stand by” or whatever he said.

You aren’t an undying loyal Trump supporter that believes everything he says, or think he’s some sort of god, like the ones who stormed the Capitol. What they heard Trump say, and what you heard Trump say have two completely different interpretations.

So once again, you have people, who stormed the Capitol, telling us, Trump told us to do it. Why shouldn’t we believe them?

Do you think when the biker dude is in court for murder, and he says my boss told us to do it, that the judge is going to believe me when I said “no I didn’t your honor, I said “let’s go talk to them.””. I really meant just talk to them? Of course not. I’ll be also charged with murder.

Yes I agree you don’t have to explicitly say take up arms and storm the Capitol, and let me reveal my elaborate evil plot in a speech like some Bond villain giving a monelague. However, saying we’re going down there and fight like hell (paraphrasing) isn’t even implying any of that in my eyes.

On your question of why shouldn’t we believe them?, a couple things…. In this country a defendant is presumed innocent. It needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise so that testimony can and should be scrutinized. There is also the matter of a constitutional right to free speech. If I hear my daughters’ elementary school is teaching lesbian dance theory, and I get on the PTA board to tell other fathers we are going down to the PTA meeting and fight like hell…would you assume that means to get violent? If some other dad idiot breaks into the meeting and gets violent, would you assume that my words were responsible for inciting a riot? The answer should be fuck no.

[Suppressed Poet]

If analyze that single act, without any other facts or events which occured then you would be correct. But that isn't the situation here. Parties were invited and Trump actually tried to force the secret service to not be divested of weapons by removing the metal detectors. Trump got all those parties in place by advertising the opportunity to save their country, a location blocks away from the capital building, and proceeded though his and associates testimony to rile up the crowd and get them ready to fight for the freedom they were convinced they lost. Trump then explicitly urged them to march on the capital building. At this point, causality was established.

What now? Again in a nutshell you only have inciting a riot and disruption of Congress. But wait there is more, there is the documented plan circulated by Trump officials and attorneys to use the chaos of their attempts to thwart the count of the vote, Pence refusing to certify, violence and disruption of the certification, so that Congress didn't meet it's prescribed deadline under the Electoral College Act. That was their DOCUMENTED PLAN. But it failed, because Pence decided not to play along. Trump actually announced this and what happened next with their anger and violence towards Pence "hang Mike Pence" was a direct result of Trump's urging.

Trump waited HOURS to act, and prosecutors are arguing this, because his hope was events would play out that certification couldn't happen one way or the other to invoke the clause in the electoral college act that Congress then vote to decide the President, not delegates. Again this was the documented plan.

All of the above is why this is a conspiracy by Trump to stay President.

What documented plan? Show me this in writing and proof that it was written, authorized, or signed by Trump.

[Solkern]

Yes I agree you don’t have to explicitly say take up arms and storm the Capitol, and let me reveal my elaborate evil plot in a speech like some Bond villain giving a monelague. However, saying we’re going down there and fight like hell (paraphrasing) isn’t even implying any of that in my eyes.

On your question of why shouldn’t we believe them?, a couple things…. In this country a defendant is presumed innocent. It needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise so that testimony can and should be scrutinized. There is also the matter of a constitutional right to free speech. If I hear my daughters’ elementary school is teaching lesbian dance theory, and I get on the PTA board to tell other fathers we are going down to the PTA meeting and fight like hell…would you assume that means to get violent? If some other dad idiot breaks into the meeting and gets violent, would you assume that my words were responsible for inciting a riot? The answer should be fuck no.

You’re right, but context also matters, let’s imagine you found out that a few teacher were possibly beating and abusing children, and you told the other parents to head down to the school and fight like hell, that answer would be a fuck yes.

Free speech doesn’t mean you are free from consequences either.

[Suppressed Poet]

You’re right, but context also matters, let’s imagine you found out that a few teacher were possibly beating and abusing children, and you told the other parents to head down to the school and fight like hell, that answer would be a fuck yes.

Free speech doesn’t mean you are free from consequences either.

I fundamentally disagree. Fight like hell is way too generic. I can say my wife and I have fought like hell. What I would mean by that is strong heated verbal arguments. Neither of us have ever been physically violent with each other.

That being said, I also respect your opinion and appreciate the dialogue.

[Neveragain]

let’s imagine

Incoming "imagination" arguments.

[Seran]

If analyze that single act, without any other facts or events which occured then you would be correct. But that isn't the situation here. Parties were invited and Trump actually tried to force the secret service to not be divested of weapons by removing the metal detectors. Trump got all those parties in place by advertising the opportunity to save their country, a location blocks away from the capital building, and proceeded though his and associates testimony to rile up the crowd and get them ready to fight for the freedom they were convinced they lost. Trump then explicitly urged them to march on the capital building. At this point, causality was established.

What now? Again in a nutshell you only have inciting a riot and disruption of Congress. But wait there is more, there is the documented plan circulated by Trump officials and attorneys to use the chaos of their attempts to thwart the count of the vote, Pence refusing to certify, violence and disruption of the certification, so that Congress didn't meet it's prescribed deadline under the Electoral College Act. That was their DOCUMENTED PLAN. But it failed, because Pence decided not to play along. Trump actually announced this and what happened next with their anger and violence towards Pence "hang Mike Pence" was a direct result of Trump's urging.

Trump waited HOURS to act, and prosecutors are arguing this, because his hope was events would play out that certification couldn't happen one way or the other to invoke the clause in the electoral college act that Congress then vote to decide the President, not delegates. Again this was the documented plan.

All of the above is why this is a conspiracy by Trump to stay President.

What documented plan? Show me this in writing and proof that it was written, authorized, or signed by Trump.

That's the cop out right there. A bit of foreshadowing for you, criminal intent doesn't require you to have a signed stipulation agreeing to a set of events to be held criminally liable. The special prosecutor need only show Trump had direct knowledge of the plan, had motive to see it carried out, had conversation with, acted out, or otherwise directed a part of said plan to obtain the indictment and hopefully a conviction.

[Solkern]

Incoming "imagination" arguments.

You would know, you use it literally every time to defend Trump.

[Solkern]

I fundamentally disagree. Fight like hell is way too generic. I can say my wife and I have fought like hell. What I would mean by that is strong heated verbal arguments. Neither of us have ever been physically violent with each other.

That being said, I also respect your opinion and appreciate the dialogue.

Once again, context matters, and also there have been countless times when a couple “fought like hell”, and it was physical as well.

[Suppressed Poet]

That's the cop out right there. A bit of foreshadowing for you, criminal intent doesn't require you to have a signed stipulation agreeing to a set of events to be held criminally liable. The special prosecutor need only show Trump had direct knowledge of the plan, had motive to see it carried out, had conversation with, acted out, or otherwise directed a part of said plan to obtain the indictment and hopefully a conviction.

Not a cop out. You said there was a DOCUMENTED PLAN. I haven’t seen one. Yes that is the burden of proof for conspiracy charges. I have yet to see direct evidence directly linking Trump to this grand conspiracy. I’ve certainly heard a lot of circumstantial (at best if not hearsay) evidence, but I have my reasonable doubt.

[Suppressed Poet]

Once again, context matters, and also there have been countless times when a couple “fought like hell”, and it was physical as well.

That’s what I mean. Fight like hell can mean many different things. It’s rather generic and vague. How can you prove that Trump didn’t mean legally & peacefully protest? Fight like hell could mean write an angry toned letter to your state representative. Now if he said “We’re going down there to break into the Capitol” or something like that, I would agree that goes beyond protected free speech. Trump went right up to the legal line without crossing it in my humble assessment.