Terrorists break into US Capitol Building

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Originally Posted by Seran

Shocker, a conservative pushing a video blaming the “intelligencia" for today's problems. What's mind boggling is that you link a random video without providing any tie in with your argument. I'll presume that since you linked it at all, you support the ideas entirely.

So let's talk about it. Do you truly believe the idea that the United States being one of the last western civilizations to support and protect institutional slavery doesn't have an impact on race relations to this day? The author says, "Well everyone else did it too." as a way of explaining away the horrors of slavery and indentured servitude, as if that somehow makes it alright.

What is shocking is the author pointing out how good black families have it here today, as opposed to their African counterparts and ties that in to the opportunity slavery allowed their people to migrate. Do you truly believe that black people having a higher standard of living today makes slavery an acceptable sin?

Lastly, tying in single motherhood amung black families to welfare programs is disgusting. Your support of the idea that black men feel they can abandon their families due to social safety nets is morally repugnant and false.

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I’m sorry Seran, but you are just too dumb and racist to engage with in any meaningful conversation. Whatever or however I respond you will just twist my words, call me morally repugnant, and say I’m someone that I’m not. Go back to your regularly scheduled MSNBC propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

I’m sorry Seran, but you are just too dumb and racist to engage with in any meaningful conversation. Whatever or however I respond you will just twist my words, call me morally repugnant, and say I’m someone that I’m not. Go back to your regularly scheduled MSNBC propaganda.

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You can't debate or negotiate with communists, everyone has to be equal to or lesser than them or their entire narrative crumbles.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

I’m in no way justifying slavery. It was terrible and has had long lasting negative effects. That being said, the movie Roots is not an accurate historical documentary which is what you and many others have come to believe. What I’m saying is the idea you have about America exploiting minorities just so a bunch of fat capitalist pigs can stay rich is a false narrative. Slavery was not unique to the United States, and it is a fact that western nations ARE the reason it doesn’t exist widespread globally today. No other country on planet Earth has given people of all races/cultures/socioeconomic background the opportunity to improve the quality of their lives like America. Before you are so quick to judge America as Evil Imperialist Empire Inc., tell me where is your shining example of utopia in the world that’s more morally sound? You won’t be able to because human beings don’t just sit around a fire pit singing kumbaya in total peace & harmony…

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You are trying to justify it, or at a very minimum say that it's not as bad as people made it out to be. I've never seen Roots. And frankly I find it disturbing that you, a Libertarian, would be a slavery apologist. We're talking about the one thing that should be THE cardinal sin to a Libertarian, but somehow it's not evil because other nations were doing it at the same time? Or maybe you're saying that by doing something any decent human being would do(stopping slavery if they had the power) our nation has absolved itself of its sins?

Yes, other nations did slavery. The USA is not unique in being a nation with many evil deeds in its past, present and future. Biden's military did a drone strike on a water carrying truck last year that killed a bunch of children and zero enemies. PURE FUCKING EVIL!

Honestly, there's no excuse for justifying slavery or saying that it's somehow not as bad as people say it was. It was evil. Pure and simple evil. If you can't acknowledge that I think we should stop talking. It's okay to admit when you're wrong, I've done it this week on this very forum!

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

Yes you order from McDonalds and Amazon just like I do as well as many more millions like us. That’s why those people are rich. Do you deny that Amazon provides a good service and products at a competitive price? He is rewarded accordingly. And guess what…Jeff Bezos doesn’t owe you or me a god damn thing. Nor does our government. I say this to you not as an insult, but that way of thinking in which you are entitled to someone else’s property & achievements is the mind of a poor person.

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Some would argue that Bezos owes the workers that made him all that capital a fair share of said capital. I know the standard response is that the workers agreed to their pay rate etc etc, but at the end of the day people are being exploited in my opinion. They're peeing in bottles, dude, and health care is tied to employment. When you lose one along with the other, you tend to take what you can get.

And no, this is the thinking of someone who has empathy. I've been poor. I grew up in a household with low enough income that I got welfare checks. I'm wealthy now, though my own efforts and, to a not-insignificant degree, privileges. I think it's way too hard to do what I did. If I had been guaranteed shelter, food and medical care when I was broke, I think I'd be in a much better position than I am today. I want the same for others.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

You can’t make the poor better off through wealth redistribution.

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You can't help poor people...by making them not poor? Please explain the logic there.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

You can only bring down the wealth of everyone else to achieve that so called economic equality. Give a homeless person today $100,000 and a year from today he will be no better off.

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That's an awful thing to say about unhoused people. It sounds like you realize that a large portion of them are unhoused due to being mentally ill. Don't you think we should have a strong social safety net to help these people and everyone else?

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

Give that same person an education, opportunities, & means to achieve a better quality of life for themselves & their family and they can sustain that improvement if they have the will to do so.

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How do you propose we do this without so-called redistribution of wealth?

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

Serious question…why on earth do you want to rely on government (or anyone other than yourself) for better standards of living? Is it so trustworthy to you that you are willing to be their sheeple? Let’s be real…politicians are self serving assholes. Even if you do get everything you want, now government controls you. I don’t want that. I don’t need government to hold my hand.

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I'll answer your question with my own question: What are governments for, if not to provide benefits to its citizens?

I know you're anti-statist, but government isn't going anywhere. Taxes aren't going anywhere. I think you know both of these things are true. So why don't we use the money that we're already paying...for things that benefit our nation rather than bombing other countries and killing brown folks over counterfeit 20's?

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Originally Posted by Flap

You are trying to justify it, or at a very minimum say that it's not as bad as people made it out to be. I've never seen Roots. And frankly I find it disturbing that you, a Libertarian, would be a slavery apologist. We're talking about the one thing that should be THE cardinal sin to a Libertarian, but somehow it's not evil because other nations were doing it at the same time? Or maybe you're saying that by doing something any decent human being would do(stopping slavery if they had the power) our nation has absolved itself of its sins?

Yes, other nations did slavery. The USA is not unique in being a nation with many evil deeds in its past, present and future. Biden's military did a drone strike on a water carrying truck last year that killed a bunch of children and zero enemies. PURE FUCKING EVIL!

Honestly, there's no excuse for justifying slavery or saying that it's somehow not as bad as people say it was. It was evil. Pure and simple evil. If you can't acknowledge that I think we should stop talking. It's okay to admit when you're wrong, I've done it this week on this very forum!



Some would argue that Bezos owes the workers that made him all that capital a fair share of said capital. I know the standard response is that the workers agreed to their pay rate etc etc, but at the end of the day people are being exploited in my opinion. They're peeing in bottles, dude, and health care is tied to employment. When you lose one along with the other, you tend to take what you can get.

And no, this is the thinking of someone who has empathy. I've been poor. I grew up in a household with low enough income that I got welfare checks. I'm wealthy now, though my own efforts and, to a not-insignificant degree, privileges. I think it's way too hard to do what I did. If I had been guaranteed shelter, food and medical care when I was broke, I think I'd be in a much better position than I am today. I want the same for others.



You can't help poor people...by making them not poor? Please explain the logic there.



That's an awful thing to say about unhoused people. It sounds like you realize that a large portion of them are unhoused due to being mentally ill. Don't you think we should have a strong social safety net to help these people and everyone else?



How do you propose we do this without so-called redistribution of wealth?



I'll answer your question with my own question: What are governments for, if not to provide benefits to its citizens?

I know you're anti-statist, but government isn't going anywhere. Taxes aren't going anywhere. I think you know both of these things are true. So why don't we use the money that we're already paying...for things that benefit our nation rather than bombing other countries and killing brown folks over counterfeit 20's?

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First I’ll say once again that I’m not justifying slavery. I denounce it and recognize the harm it has done. So please stop accusing me of that. What I was trying to point out to you which you refuse to acknowledge is that it’s not as simple or accurate to say the evil white man enslaved a bunch of black people and our country was built upon this principle. Slavery was universally accepted practice on a global scale from the dawn of humanity until the 19th century. To imply that America’s founding is immoral because we had slaves…well if you have that mentality than every single people & society on earth was guilty of that in that time. You are trying to apply our present day rational and norms upon a different time, and it simply doesn’t work that way. That doesn’t make slavery in anyway less wrong and once again I’m not justifying it, but I think you need to look at reality of how the world was at the time & realize the USA was unique ONLY in the sense that we eradicated slavery.

On your question of how do we accomplish better standards of living without wealth redistribution…. Let’s take a look for a moment at cultures that do really well here. Asian Americans make on average a higher income than whites. So do Jews. So do Nigerian immigrants. Just a few rough examples for this simple exercise. You know what they have in common? Their cultures place a high emphasis & value on education, discipline, & personal accountability. They don’t have a victimhood mentality of entitlement. They bust their ass in school & work hard to make themselves valuable contributing members of society. Its not that I lack empathy for poor people. The difference between you & I is that I want to give poor people the opportunities and choice of not to be poor, where it seems you want to give the poor more money (which doesn’t really make them any less poor is the point I was trying to get across).

Robbing Jeff Bezos isn’t going to help you usher in your utopian society. That’s all I’m going to say on that.

On what is the purpose of government? Well I say it’s a reflection of our own society’s values. We need government for national defense, to make & enforce laws, & many other things… but government DOES NOT exist to serve you with benefits. And if you let it happen, it will RULE you. Our founding fathers understood this very well.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

I’m sorry Seran, but you are just too dumb and racist to engage with in any meaningful conversation. Whatever or however I respond you will just twist my words, call me morally repugnant, and say I’m someone that I’m not. Go back to your regularly scheduled MSNBC propaganda.

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This is correct.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

I’m sorry Seran, but you are just too dumb and racist to engage with in any meaningful conversation. Whatever or however I respond you will just twist my words, call me morally repugnant, and say I’m someone that I’m not. Go back to your regularly scheduled MSNBC propaganda.

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This is correct.

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Originally Posted by Suppressed Poet

First I’ll say once again that I’m not justifying slavery. I denounce it and recognize the harm it has done. So please stop accusing me of that. What I was trying to point out to you which you refuse to acknowledge is that it’s not as simple or accurate to say the evil white man enslaved a bunch of black people and our country was built upon this principle. Slavery was universally accepted practice on a global scale from the dawn of humanity until the 19th century. To imply that America’s founding is immoral because we had slaves…well if you have that mentality than every single people & society on earth was guilty of that in that time. You are trying to apply our present day rational and norms upon a different time, and it simply doesn’t work that way. That doesn’t make slavery in anyway less wrong and once again I’m not justifying it, but I think you need to look at reality of how the world was at the time & realize the USA was unique ONLY in the sense that we eradicated slavery.

On your question of how do we accomplish better standards of living without wealth redistribution…. Let’s take a look for a moment at cultures that do really well here. Asian Americans make on average a higher income than whites. So do Jews. So do Nigerian immigrants. Just a few rough examples for this simple exercise. You know what they have in common? Their cultures place a high emphasis & value on education, discipline, & personal accountability. They don’t have a victimhood mentality of entitlement. They bust their ass in school & work hard to make themselves valuable contributing members of society. Its not that I lack empathy for poor people. The difference between you & I is that I want to give poor people the opportunities and choice of not to be poor, where it seems you want to give the poor more money (which doesn’t really make them any less poor is the point I was trying to get across).

Robbing Jeff Bezos isn’t going to help you usher in your utopian society. That’s all I’m going to say on that.

On what is the purpose of government? Well I say it’s a reflection of our own society’s values. We need government for national defense, to make & enforce laws, & many other things… but government DOES NOT exist to serve you with benefits. And if you let it happen, it will RULE you. Our founding fathers understood this very well.

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The primary difference between you an Flap is you think that slavery was a benefit to the people that were kidnapped or forcibly indentured from and want to pretend your party's idea of progress is removing any and all minimum wages to ensure debt slavery can resume.

I'm mystified that you think government doesn't have a duty to make sure no one is homeless, dying from untreated illness or hunger. How does making sure the most vulnerable, mostly children and elderly by the way, allow the government to RULE anyone. Some 35% of our population is on cash assistance and needs based social security, you obviously think they need to be allowed to figure it out themselves.

So with your hatred of children, poor people, apologist attitude for slave owners left without work, just who do you think should be held accountable? Why don't you let us know which ethnicities or cultures have a victimhood mentality? I'd like to know so we can develop your revolutionary program to ask people whether or not to be poor, which will magically make them successful without any basic cash assistance.

Here's a "revolutionary" program...

Hard work, self accountability, and the Government not lying to people saying they're owed something.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mill...-los-angeles-5

https://www.inc.com/business-insider...to-riches.html

Could link thousands of other stories.

You know what else... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global...Mobility_Index

You can look at that, and someone like Seran would say "See!! Socialism blah blah blah"... not realizing... every country above the US on that chart (and not by much mind you) has been propped up and supported with US taxpayer funds and military protection for the past 70 years.

The one thing I would say that the "government" should be held to account for... and is failing miserably at... is Education. Not the money spent per student, as the US is second in the world with that... so plenty of money is there... it's what we're teaching students that is so horrible. Focus should be on STEM, economics, financial structures, trade skills, etc. instead of the "general studies" that pass for degrees these days. That is the true failing.

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Originally Posted by Shaps

Here's a "revolutionary" program...

Hard work, self accountability, and the Government not lying to people saying they're owed something.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mill...-los-angeles-5

https://www.inc.com/business-insider...to-riches.html

Could link thousands of other stories.

You know what else... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global...Mobility_Index

You can look at that, and someone like Seran would say "See!! Socialism blah blah blah"... not realizing... every country above the US on that chart (and not by much mind you) has been propped up and supported with US taxpayer funds and military protection for the past 70 years.

The one thing I would say that the "government" should be held to account for... and is failing miserably at... is Education. Not the money spent per student, as the US is second in the world with that... so plenty of money is there... it's what we're teaching students that is so horrible. Focus should be on STEM, economics, financial structures, trade skills, etc. instead of the "general studies" that pass for degrees these days. That is the true failing.

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Agreed.

We have kids graduating $100k+ in debt with degrees that specialize in gender neutral sociology, and these same kids wonder why they can’t get a meaningful job in the real world. Our higher education system is long overdue for reform.

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Originally Posted by Seran

I'm mystified that you think government doesn't have a duty to make sure no one is homeless, dying from untreated illness or hunger. How does making sure the most vulnerable, mostly children and elderly by the way, allow the government to RULE anyone. Some 35% of our population is on cash assistance and needs based social security, you obviously think they need to be allowed to figure it out themselves.

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I’m mystified that you don’t seem to think the primary person responsible for making sure they don’t end up homeless, broke, hungry, etc. is the individual and not their government. If you don’t accept personal accountability for your actions, nobody else will. Now I don’t think anyone should starve or freeze to death and we have the means in our society to help, but I fundamentally disagree with you that by right of birth you are just automatically entitled to a certain standard of living from the government. That’s not how our world works. You are responsible for you.