War Criminals Among Us: Bush, Cheney, and the Eyes of the World

[Back]

War Criminals Among Us: Bush, Cheney, and the Eyes of the World (http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35397/bush-cheney-war-crimes/)



Last week, Richard Clarke, the man to whom nobody in the administration of C-Plus Augustus listened because what did he know, anyway?, had a chat with Amy Goodman in which he minced no words regarding his former employers. (http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/5/28/former_counterterrorism_czar_richard_clarke_bush)


"I think things that they authorized probably fall within the area of war crimes. Whether that would be productive or not, I think, is a discussion we could all have. But we have established procedures now with the International Criminal Court in The Hague, where people who take actions as serving presidents or prime ministers of countries have been indicted and have been tried. So the precedent is there to do that sort of thing. And I think we need to ask ourselves whether or not it would be useful to do that in the case of members of the Bush administration. It's clear that things that the Bush administration did — in my mind, at least, it's clear that some of the things they did were war crimes."


And, something that most of us missed, there was a court (http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/12/bush-convicted-of-war-crimes-in-absentia/) on the other side of the world that agreed.

Read the rest at Esquire (http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35397/bush-cheney-war-crimes/).

[Parkbandit]

http://www.imagesbuddy.com/images/101/2013/08/happy-tuesday-colorful-glitter-graphic.gif

[Back]

http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors9/addison-whithecomb-quote-when-you-resort-to-attacking-the-messenger.jpg

[Gelston]

Too bad the US isn't a party to International Criminal Courts. If the Hague wants to declare war on the US to snatch up our former President, so be it.

[Back]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFOzayDpWoI

[Astray]

Give 'em a little somethin' they can't take off?

http://www.newrepublic.com/sites/default/files/migrated/Brad_IB_ns_3.jpg

[Parkbandit]

Remember that time where Bush stole the election? He should be put in jail for that too!

Right Backlash??

[Back]

Florida wasn't a thing? That election was the most controversial election in recent history.

Bush, himself, could not have done it alone. Dur.

[Back]

Give 'em a little somethin' they can't take off?

http://www.newrepublic.com/sites/default/files/migrated/Brad_IB_ns_3.jpg

Great movie I watched last week. I've watched it a billion times.

Funny thing is... it is not so much about killing Nazis as it is about the history of film.

[Astray]

It's on Netflix so I rewatched it.

[Back]

Check out Glengarry Glen Ross.

[Parkbandit]

Florida wasn't a thing? That election was the most controversial election in recent history.

Bush, himself, could not have done it alone. Dur.

http://www.shoestring101.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/fishinabarrel.jpg

[Ker_Thwap]

I'm a big fan of debating the idea, and not resorting to personal attacks. I'm also a big fan of not wasting my time debating with stoners... or drunks. A Back thread on Tuesday, not even once.

[Wrathbringer]

Bush=Saddam Hussein=Hitler=bin ladin=Obama

Two of those are free and powerful, and the other three are dead. American exceptionalism. Smh

[Back]

I'm a big fan of debating the idea, and not resorting to personal attacks. I'm also a big fan of not wasting my time debating with stoners... or drunks. A Back thread on Tuesday, not even once.



Too easy. You have no opinion about this?

[Back]

http://www.shoestring101.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/fishinabarrel.jpg


You think you are shooting fish in a barrel? Fish you don't like saying truth?

[Candor]

Florida wasn't a thing? That election was the most controversial election in recent history.

Bush, himself, could not have done it alone. Dur.

Yeah and the Democrats were just blameless throughout the whole thing...not. Like when the Democratic lawyers wanted to invalidate many of the absentee ballots for invalid reasons. Why you ask? Most of these ballots were from the military and the Dems knew that the most of them were not likely to vote Democratic. It's was only when the law was pointed out to them in black and white that they gave up the effort.

Funny how the libbies forget little details like this when history gets discussed...

[Back]

Yeah and the Democrats were just blameless throughout the whole thing...not. Like when the Democratic lawyers wanted to invalidate many of the absentee ballots for invalid reasons. Why you ask? Most of these ballots were from the military and the Dems knew that the most of them were not likely to vote Democratic. It's was only when the law was pointed out to them in black and white that they gave up the effort.

Funny how the libbies forget little details like this when history gets discussed...

Yeah, it's all the liberals fault? Read your history, man!

Only two electoral elections went against the popular vote. Thats not noteworthy?

[Ker_Thwap]

Too easy. You have no opinion about this?

Of course I have an opinion. Are you still sober enough to consider it?

[Wrathbringer]

Of course I have an opinion. Are you still sober enough to consider it?

I'd say he probably is still sober enough to consider it, which means he won't be drunk enough to buy whatever it is you're selling so you may wish to wait on that.

[Ker_Thwap]

I'd say he probably is still sober enough to consider it, which means he won't be drunk enough to buy whatever it is you're selling so you may wish to wait on that.

We all know how it works, people call him out on his complete lack of knowledge/understanding of the issues that he babbles about. He digs himself deeper, eventually figures out he's made a horrible mistake, and loses himself in the bottle. It's not healthy, and I won't be part of it.

The only thing I'm selling is your mother, and she's not getting any younger, I can't afford to wait.

[Wrathbringer]

We all know how it works, people call him out on his complete lack of knowledge/understanding of the issues that he babbles about. He digs himself deeper, eventually figures out he's made a horrible mistake, and loses himself in the bottle. It's not healthy, and I won't be part of it.

The only thing I'm selling is your mother, and she's not getting any younger, I can't afford to wait.

What actually happens is that the miserable trolls here, who just happen to be all republican, default to whatever they heard on Rush Limbaugh that morning whenever back starts asking the hard questions. Then they just resort to insults like, "You're black and stupid" and "Go eat grits/chitlands," when they realize how stupid their arguments sound. Oh, and thanks for the obligatory "don't forget I'm black" pimp/mom joke. It was really funny.

[Parkbandit]

You think you are shooting fish in a barrel? Fish you don't like saying truth?

This response is exactly how someone who doesn't understand what the idiom "it's like shooting fish in a barrel" even means.

[Parkbandit]

What actually happens is that the miserable trolls here, who just happen to be all republican, default to whatever they heard on Rush Limbaugh that morning whenever back starts asking the hard questions. Then they just resort to insults like, "You're black and stupid" and "Go eat grits/chitlands," when they realize how stupid their arguments sound. Oh, and thanks for the obligatory "don't forget I'm black" pimp/mom joke. It was really funny.

I thought the really miserable troll just posts like he's a racist, unintelligent redneck and then leaves shart rep?

[Tgo01]

Only two electoral elections went against the popular vote. Thats not noteworthy?

Alright, noted.

[Ker_Thwap]

What actually happens is that the miserable trolls here, who just happen to be all republican, default to whatever they heard on Rush Limbaugh that morning whenever back starts asking the hard questions. Then they just resort to insults like, "You're black and stupid" and "Go eat grits/chitlands," when they realize how stupid their arguments sound. Oh, and thanks for the obligatory "don't forget I'm black" pimp/mom joke. It was really funny.

Have you noticed that I only make your mom jokes to you? I thought you liked grade school humor?

[Tgo01]

What actually happens is that the miserable trolls here, who just happen to be all republican, default to whatever they heard on Rush Limbaugh that morning whenever back starts asking the hard questions. Then they just resort to insults like, "You're black and stupid" and "Go eat grits/chitlands," when they realize how stupid their arguments sound. Oh, and thanks for the obligatory "don't forget I'm black" pimp/mom joke. It was really funny.

To be fair, one automatically loses the argument when they reference the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which Back did in his very first post.

[Wrathbringer]

Have you noticed that I only make your mom jokes to you? I thought you liked grade school humor?

...I said it was really funny. I typed it slowly for you that time so that it could have time to sink into your "brain".

[Wrathbringer]

I thought the really miserable troll just posts like he's a racist, unintelligent redneck and then leaves shart rep?

You thought. lol good one.

[Gelston]

To be fair, one automatically loses the argument when they reference the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, which Back did in his very first post.

Didn't cwolff used to talk about that shit? IS BACK CWOLFF?

[Candor]

Yeah, it's all the liberals fault? Read your history, man!

There were Republicans willing do do whatever it took to have Bush win the election. I don't question that for a second, and to say I have a low opinion of that mindset doesn't begin to cover the territory. But there were Democrats willing to do the same thing for their party. Evil men were active in both parties trying to turn the tide their way, methods being legal or not.

[Wrathbringer]

There were Republicans willing do do whatever it took to have Bush win the election. I don't question that for a second, and to say I have a low opinion of that mindset doesn't begin to cover the territory. But there were Democrats willing to do the same thing for their party. Evil men were active in both parties trying to turn the tide their way, methods being legal or not.

And, unsurprisingly, the most evil man won.

[~Rocktar~]

http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/authors9/addison-whithecomb-quote-when-you-resort-to-attacking-the-messenger.jpg

When the messenger is so bad they can't help but shit up the message, perhaps they should consider their actions.

[ClydeR]

Bush is safe as long as he doesn't leave the country. And why would he want to do that anyway?

[Thondalar]

The people who want George Bush arrested for war crimes are showing their total ignorance of how that system works, and their gullibility.

[Back]

The people who want George Bush arrested for war crimes are showing their total ignorance of how that system works, and their gullibility.

So please explain to us ignorant how Bush's war on Iraq in response to 9/11 was "how the system works"?

[Thondalar]

So please explain to us ignorant how Bush's war on Iraq in response to 9/11 was "how the system works"?

The war in Iraq wasn't directly in response to 9/11 would be your first clue. Congress approved the war in Iraq, including your beloved Hillary Clinton, would be your second.

[Back]

The war in Iraq wasn't directly in response to 9/11 would be your first clue. Congress approved the war in Iraq, including your beloved Hillary Clinton, would be your second.

Fuck her and fuck congress. I didn't approve. I suppose you did.

[Tgo01]

If Bush is a criminal that means liberals have to support him now, right?

[Back]

The war in Iraq wasn't directly in response to 9/11 would be your first clue. Congress approved the war in Iraq, including your beloved Hillary Clinton, would be your second.

Maybe you can explain to us ignorant gullible people why Bush went to war on Iraq?

Seems to me like the ignorant gullible people were the ones who approved of it.

[Parkbandit]

So please explain to us ignorant how Bush's war on Iraq in response to 9/11 was "how the system works"?

http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/151540-Happy-Tuesday-Have-A-Great-Day.jpg?2

[Fallen]

http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/151540-Happy-Tuesday-Have-A-Great-Day.jpg?2

Hah. You go from a fucked up table to that?

[Thondalar]

Maybe you can explain to us ignorant gullible people why Bush went to war on Iraq?

Seems to me like the ignorant gullible people were the ones who approved of it.

I guess you missed the second clue. Bush didn't go to war on Iraq, Congress did.

[Parkbandit]

Fuck her and fuck congress. I didn't approve. I suppose you did.

You didn't have a vote.. unless your new internet story is that you are an elected official in the US Congress.

The measure did pass with 29 Democrat votes (including Hillary Clinton's) and 48 Republican votes.

[Parkbandit]

Hah. You go from a fucked up table to that?

Shut your mouth! You didn't see that chart! NO ONE SAW THE CHART BECAUSE THE CHART DOESN'T EXIST AND IF IT DID, IT DIDN'T COPY/PASTE PROPERLY!

[Thondalar]

Fuck her and fuck congress. I didn't approve. I suppose you did.

Eh, kinda torn. On the one hand, you had a murderous maniac ruling a country with an iron fist, and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Would I like to see some sort of stronger power step in and stop that? Yeah, I suppose I would, in the same way you would probably like a police officer to step in and save you from a mugging.

On the other hand, I don't like the US being the World Police. Unfortunately, nobody else is stepping up to the plate...and quite frankly, that opens another can of worms. Do I want another country besides mine having that power? Would the world be a better place if nobody had that power?

Although the war in Iraq was joined by 39 other countries, the US obviously played the major role. Are things better now than they were before the invasion? Hard to say...it was pretty fucking bad before. I would say it's less stable, with ISIS and whatnot, but I'm not sure if that by itself makes it any better or worse. Which is worse...a murderous dictatorship, or multiple murderous factions? Ultimately I would have to go with the former being worse, if only for the latter having a choice of sides to join.

Unlike you, I try to look at things objectively. I actually try to understand the mechanics behind events, the why and how of reality. I'm conflicted by all of this, because I can see the good and the bad of all decisions. I wish I had your blind conviction and ignorant faith...I really do. It would make my life so much easier.


edit: clarified my better/worse question and answer.

[tyrant-201]

Eh, kinda torn. On the one hand, you had a murderous maniac ruling a country with an iron fist, and slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Would I like to see some sort of stronger power step in and stop that? Yeah, I suppose I would, in the same way you would probably like a police officer to step in and save you from a mugging.

On the other hand, I don't like the US being the World Police. Unfortunately, nobody else is stepping up to the plate...and quite frankly, that opens another can of worms. Do I want another country besides mine having that power? Would the world be a better place if nobody had that power?

Although the war in Iraq was joined by 39 other countries, the US obviously played the major role. Are things better now than they were before the invasion? Hard to say...it was pretty fucking bad before. I would say it's less stable, with ISIS and whatnot, but I'm not sure if that by itself makes it any better or worse. Which is worse...a murderous dictatorship, or multiple murderous factions? Ultimately I would have to go with the latter, if only because there is the choice of a side to join.

Unlike you, I try to look at things objectively. I actually try to understand the mechanics behind events, the why and how of reality. I'm conflicted by all of this, because I can see the good and the bad of all decisions. I wish I had your blind conviction and ignorant faith...I really do. It would make my life so much easier.

I understand the mechanics behind the events. I understand that it was a war of aggression. (against Geneva convention) I understand that torture was used (against Geneva Convention) I understand that civilians were indiscriminately killed (against Geneva convention)

I understand that killing Saddam (as bad of a dude as he was) created a power vacuum. I understand that disbanding the Iraqi military and not paying their pensions created a lot of angry soldiers. I understand that a foreign power invading your country and implementing a power/governmental structure you have no familiarity with or knowledge of rarely works.

I understand that WMD were never found. I understand that the power vacuum we created in Iraq spread throughout a multitude of other countries and has created a humanitarian disaster in the region. (Raping, mass killings, even more extremism)

Tell me more about what you understand, and how we were justified in attacking Iraq in the first place.

[Thondalar]

I understand the mechanics behind the events. I understand that it was a war of aggression. (against Geneva convention) I understand that torture was used (against Geneva Convention) I understand that civilians were indiscriminately killed (against Geneva convention)

You should probably do a little more research and familiarize yourself better with the Geneva Conventions


I understand that killing Saddam (as bad of a dude as he was) created a power vacuum.

I, also, understand that, and said as much.


I understand that disbanding the Iraqi military and not paying their pensions created a lot of angry soldiers.

For sure. The idea behind this was attempting to remove all Baathist influence from anything even remotely governmental/military, for fear of Hussein supporters simply picking up where he left off. I think Bush's main culpability in this respect was replacing Garner with Bremer in 2003...not the brightest idea in hindsight, but still not anything worthy of a tribunal.


I understand that a foreign power invading your country and implementing a power/governmental structure you have no familiarity with or knowledge of rarely works.

I, too, understand this. You would think the Powers That Be would understand this as well from all the times we've tried and failed, but hey...gotta keep trying, I guess.


I understand that WMD were never found.

Depends on how you define "WMD". I think it's telling that we had indications and intelligence that said they were there, and then months of Iraq denying inspections...plenty of time to dismantle and move. My only guess is Saddam didn't think we'd actually do a full-blown invasion, just perhaps some military-supported inspections, where he could go "see? You came in here for nothing, get lost" and then go back to business. You're firmly convinced that there was never anything there, I'm firmly convinced that the Evil Mastermind Dr. Bush (who apparently only plays the bumbling idiot as a cover) couldn't possibly have constructed such an intricate conspiracy. Something was there, at least enough to convince Congress to declare war.


I understand that the power vacuum we created in Iraq spread throughout a multitude of other countries and has created a humanitarian disaster in the region. (Raping, mass killings, even more extremism)

ISIS didn't start in Iraq, it spread TO Iraq. As I stated before, though, I would rather have a choice of sides to join, and actually have a fight, rather than just being executed by the authority in control because I'm not them. The "humanitarian disaster" you speak of has been going on for quite some time now, regardless of the Iraqi War.


Tell me more about what you understand, and how we were justified in attacking Iraq in the first place.

Done.

[Back]

Eh, kinda torn.

That says it all. If you weren't against them you were for them.

And by them I mean people who though the fiasco of war with Iraq.

[Thondalar]

That says it all. If you weren't against them you were for them.

Yeah, I'll refer you back to the last two sentences of that post, although it's obvious you didn't read anything past the first two words.


And by them I mean people who though the fiasco of war with Iraq.

er...what?

[Back]

Yeah, I'll refer you back to the last two sentences of that post, although it's obvious you didn't read anything past the first two words.



er...what?

Got me there. Sorry. It is still Tuesday!

But come on man, Bush and his war on Iraq was a debacle.

[Thondalar]

Got me there. Sorry. It is still Tuesday!

But come on man, Bush and his war on Iraq was a debacle.

When will you admit that Congress declared war on Iraq, not Bush?

[Candor]

When will you admit that Congress declared war on Iraq, not Bush?

Did I misunderstand a Civics lesson somewhere, or does Congress have the only real authority to declare war in the first place?

[Thondalar]

Did I misunderstand a Civics lesson somewhere, or does Congress have the only real authority to declare war in the first place?

That's pretty much my point, yes.

[Back]

When will you admit that Congress declared war on Iraq, not Bush?

How does that make it right? I'll admit Congress was deceived. Just like everyone else.

I don't know if you remember but the administration actually villianized anyone who was against the idea. Americans!

[tyrant-201]

You should probably do a little more research and familiarize yourself better with the Geneva Conventions


True on the war of aggression part.

Defined in the Nuremberg Charter:

Crimes against peace:
Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

United Nations charter: The United Nations Charter is the highest expression of this prohibition on aggressive war and sets down very rigorous rules for avoiding the use of force - rules which were flagrantly violated by the United States and a Security Council it controlled. Article 2131 of the UN Charter requires that international disputes be settled by peaceful means so that international peace, security and justice are not endangered; Article 2141 requires that force shall not by used in any manner that is inconsistent with the purposes of the UN and Article 33 requires that parties to a dispute shall first of all seek a solution by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies, or other peaceful means. Not until all such means are exhausted can force be used.

"Not all violations of the treaty are treated equally. The most serious crimes are termed grave breaches, and provide a legal definition of a war crime. Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention:

Within the Geneva Convention

1. willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments

2. willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

3. extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly
unlawful deportation, transfer, or confinement."

[Thondalar]

I would also point out that the Iraq War overlapped the Obama presidency by several years, and if Bush is guilty of war crimes for being president when Congress started it, Obama would be equally culpable for being president while it continued.

Just admit that this whole Bush war crimes thing is a bunch of idiotic Bush-bashing because you don't have a fucking leg to stand on except to keep bashing Bush. It's pathetic. He hasn't been president since my daughter was in diapers. Fucking get over it.

[Back]

That's pretty much my point, yes.

Ignorant and gulliable. Thats what you called anyone who was against Bush's war on Iraq after 9/11.

I am astonished. It's like Bizzaro world where everything means the opposite. Like Orwell's 1984.

While I, like you, are American, it is hard for me to believe you actually bought into that mess. I suppose we should talk more often.

[Thondalar]

How does that make it right? I'll admit Congress was deceived. Just like everyone else.

I don't know if you remember but the administration actually villianized anyone who was against the idea. Americans!

Ah, so you do believe it was a conspiracy masterminded by Evil Mastermind Dr. Bush. Who only played a bumbling idiot as a cover. You're pathetic. Seriously.

[Back]

I would also point out that the Iraq War overlapped the Obama presidency by several years, and if Bush is guilty of war crimes for being president when Congress started it, Obama would be equally culpable for being president while it continued.

Just admit that this whole Bush war crimes thing is a bunch of idiotic Bush-bashing because you don't have a fucking leg to stand on except to keep bashing Bush. It's pathetic. He hasn't been president since my daughter was in diapers. Fucking get over it.

I don't think you are actually the one to point at anyone else about rationality. There is no reasoning that can link the failures of Iraq to Obama but a confused one.

[Back]

Ah, so you do believe it was a conspiracy masterminded by Evil Mastermind Dr. Bush. Who only played a bumbling idiot as a cover. You're pathetic. Seriously.

Yes. Yes I do. I'm not afraid to point the finger. Bush fucked up. Big time.

[Thondalar]

Ignorant and gulliable. Thats what you called anyone who was against Bush's war on Iraq after 9/11.

Um, no. That's what I called people who blindly blame Bush for everything, even though he had very little real control of any of it. The president is a figurehead. Congress acted on information it received regardless of anything Bush did.


I am astonished. It's like Bizzaro world where everything means the opposite. Like Orwell's 1984.

I'm guessing you've never actually read 1984.


While I, like you, are American, it is hard for me to believe you actually bought into that mess. I suppose we should talk more often.

It's hard for me to believe you think I'm a total supporter that "bought into" anything. Apparently you really didn't read my full post...perhaps you should.

[Thondalar]

Yes. Yes I do. I'm not afraid to point the finger. Bush fucked up. Big time.

This is why intelligent people laugh at you.

Not Bush supporters, or war supporters...generally intelligent people of all backgrounds.

[Back]

Um, no. That's what I called people who blindly blame Bush for everything, even though he had very little real control of any of it. The president is a figurehead. Congress acted on information it received regardless of anything Bush did.

LOL. Read your history, bro. You're looking kinda dumb right now. And I don't mean that in a bad way!

[Back]

This is why intelligent people laugh at you.

Not Bush supporters, or war supporters...generally intelligent people of all backgrounds.

I'm used to it. Fashion police make fun of me every time I walk out the door.

[Thondalar]

I don't think you are actually the one to point at anyone else about rationality. There is no reasoning that can link the failures of Iraq to Obama but a confused one.

I...don't understand. We were at war with Iraq under Bush, and he was evil for it...we were at war with Iraq under Obama, and that's cool? What the fuck, man.

Oh, let me guess...it started under Bush and "finished" under Obama, and it's just that simple? It doesn't matter at all that it happened for several years under both? That Obama continued Bush's foreign policy almost completely for several years?

When are you going to quit being so fucking blind? Just once, try to stand on principle alone...ignore party lines and sycophantic allegiance. These politicians aren't loyal to you, why do you feel the need to be loyal to them?

[Back]

I...don't understand. We were at war with Iraq under Bush, and he was evil for it...we were at war with Iraq under Obama, and that's cool? What the fuck, man.

Oh, let me guess...it started under Bush and "finished" under Obama, and it's just that simple? It doesn't matter at all that it happened for several years under both? That Obama continued Bush's foreign policy almost completely for several years?

When are you going to quit being so fucking blind? Just once, try to stand on principle alone...ignore party lines and sycophantic allegiance. These politicians aren't loyal to you, why do you feel the need to be loyal to them?

I hear you brother. Fucking politicians sending our people to fight for their inadequacies.

[Thondalar]

LOL. Read your history, bro. You're looking kinda dumb right now. And I don't mean that in a bad way!

"my history", huh? Perhaps you would like to point me to some information.

I'm going to go way far out on a limb here and guess you get all of "your history" from HuffPo and MSNBC. You obviously have no clue about how war is declared in the US.

[Thondalar]

True on the war of aggression part.

Defined in the Nuremberg Charter:

Crimes against peace:
Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).

United Nations charter: The United Nations Charter is the highest expression of this prohibition on aggressive war and sets down very rigorous rules for avoiding the use of force - rules which were flagrantly violated by the United States and a Security Council it controlled. Article 2131 of the UN Charter requires that international disputes be settled by peaceful means so that international peace, security and justice are not endangered; Article 2141 requires that force shall not by used in any manner that is inconsistent with the purposes of the UN and Article 33 requires that parties to a dispute shall first of all seek a solution by negotiation, inquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies, or other peaceful means. Not until all such means are exhausted can force be used.

"Not all violations of the treaty are treated equally. The most serious crimes are termed grave breaches, and provide a legal definition of a war crime. Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention:

Within the Geneva Convention

1. willful killing, torture or inhumane treatment, including biological experiments

2. willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health

3. extensive destruction and appropriation of property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly
unlawful deportation, transfer, or confinement."

The key part you missed there, and what I was more directly referring to, is where it says "...Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention"

[tyrant-201]

The key part you missed there, and what I was more directly referring to, is where it says "...Grave breaches of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions include the following acts if committed against a person protected by the convention"

Iraq signed on to the convention, did they not?

[Back]

I am completely amazed that anyone could call me "ignorant and gullible" because I disagreed with the war on Iraq.

It was a mistake. A HUGE mistake. And I remember the day Bush announced it. In my head I was like "NO! NO! NO!".

[Thondalar]

Iraq signed on to the convention, did they not?

They signed on to Articles 1-4 in 1956, but with exceptions. They didn't sign on to any of the protocols until after 2010.

Relatively pointless to this discussion. Most of the "violations" you listed involved individual occurrences during the time of war, in which case the President would still not be culpable, since he would have no direct knowledge of these events, nor any way to prove he provided the authority by which they were executed.

The Nuremburg Charter isn't the Geneva Conventions, so not sure why you put that in there. Also, the United Nations charter isn't any part of the Geneva Conventions...also curious why that was included. The UN part is especially humorous, considering they passed 11 resolutions against Iraq leading up to the war, with resolution 1441 finally being passed with a unanimous 15-0 vote, even more support than the Gulf War resolution.

From what I can tell, you've created a mish-mash of "facts" from conspiracy theorists or "sources" that, when combined in the proper manner, create a story you want to read.

[Thondalar]

I am completely amazed that anyone could call me "ignorant and gullible" because I disagreed with the war on Iraq.

It was a mistake. A HUGE mistake. And I remember the day Bush announced it. In my head I was like "NO! NO! NO!".

I'm not calling you ignorant and gullible for disagreeing with the war in Iraq, I'm calling you such for blaming it all on Bush and ignoring everyone else involved.

[Back]

I'm not calling you ignorant and gullible for disagreeing with the war in Iraq, I'm calling you such for blaming it all on Bush and ignoring everyone else involved.

You may take comfort with that but I don't. Fuckng debacle and it rests on the heads of state at the time. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, fuck, all of congress Hilary too.

[Thondalar]

You may take comfort with that but I don't. Fuckng debacle and it rests on the heads of state at the time. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, fuck, all of congress Hilary too.

Was that so hard? I know it's easier to pick out a single target, but put the pellet gun down and pick up the shotgun. The scourge is epidemic...this snake has multiple heads. If you cut them off one at a time, they'll just come back with two more.

[Back]

Was that so hard? I know it's easier to pick out a single target, but put the pellet gun down and pick up the shotgun. The scourge is epidemic...this snake has multiple heads. If you cut them off one at a time, they'll just come back with two more.

If you want to kill a snake you need to cut off the head.

[iJin]

You may take comfort with that but I don't. Fuckng debacle and it rests on the heads of state at the time. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, fuck, all of congress Hilary too.

Look, I'm being ignorant right now and have no idea what this thread about but all I saw was a fucking Pikachu and just wanted to let you know that I love Pikachu. I want it.

[Androidpk]

Pikachu was a clue on Jeopardy the other night.

[iJin]

Oh my god the pokemon is moving and his ears and.....so cute.

[tyrant-201]

Was that so hard? I know it's easier to pick out a single target, but put the pellet gun down and pick up the shotgun. The scourge is epidemic...this snake has multiple heads. If you cut them off one at a time, they'll just come back with two more.

For the record, I think everyone who made the decision to go to war with Iraq is culpable.

[Jeril]

Look, I'm being ignorant right now and have no idea what this thread about but all I saw was a fucking Pikachu and just wanted to let you know that I love Pikachu. I want it.

LOL.

[Wrathbringer]

Maybe you can explain to us ignorant gullible people why Bush went to war on Iraq?

Seems to me like the ignorant gullible people were the ones who approved of it.

Wow, go back!

[Wrathbringer]

For the record, I think everyone who made the decision to go to war with Iraq is culpable.

Including the deluded populace who waved flags and yelled 'murica the entire time as we slaughtered the people of that region.

[Parkbandit]

I'm going to miss that Tuesday.

Dammit...

[Latrinsorm]

I would also point out that the Iraq War overlapped the Obama presidency by several years, and if Bush is guilty of war crimes for being president when Congress started it, Obama would be equally culpable for being president while it continued.This does not follow logically. Suppose Dave Smith was running your restaurant before you did, offered an early bird special, and used it to commit massive fraud / poison people / generally do crimes. It does not follow that the early bird special you offer will be used in the same way.
Just admit that this whole Bush war crimes thing is a bunch of idiotic Bush-bashing because you don't have a fucking leg to stand on except to keep bashing Bush. It's pathetic. He hasn't been president since my daughter was in diapers. Fucking get over it.That you don't believe any of the rationale given does not make it wrong. You have yourself provided a case for the Bush war crimes argument: Iraq signed the First through Fourth Geneva Conventions, those conventions provide clear and explicit definition of war crimes. The idea that a war crime can only be committed personally is not correct. I encourage you to review the defendants at Nuremberg.

[Back]

Including the deluded populace who waved flags and yelled 'murica the entire time as we slaughtered the people of that region.

As an American I bear that weight. I acknowledge that. Even though I disagreed with the administration and congress I did not defect to another country or stop paying taxes after they made that decision. I hold myself as accountable, well almost as accountable, as our leaders.

[Back]

Oh my god the pokemon is moving and his ears and.....so cute.

Look at http://www.pokestadium.com/tools/sprites to get your own!

[Parkbandit]

As an American I bear that weight. I acknowledge that. Even though I disagreed with the administration and congress I did not defect to another country or stop paying taxes after they made that decision. I hold myself as accountable, well almost as accountable, as our leaders.

lulwut?

Is this Tuesday REMIX!?!?!?

[Back]

lulwut?

Is this Tuesday REMIX!?!?!?

I only drunk when I'm post.

[Parkbandit]

I only drunk when I'm post.

Please tell us how you held yourself accountable for the bad decisions of President Bush or any other Republican. I'd ask you about bad decisions by President Obama or Democrats, but we both know you don't believe they make them.

[Back]

Please tell us how you held yourself accountable for the bad decisions of President Bush or any other Republican. I'd ask you about bad decisions by President Obama or Democrats, but we both know you don't believe they make them.

I look at it this way. We are all Americans despite our political differences. Thus, we are all culpable either way. We vote and as far as we know those votes count.

It would be disingenuous of me as an American to not take some responsibility for our votes for out leaders despite my not having voted for certain leaders because I have not abandon my country.

Yeah, I disagree with some of our decisions, but I still like it here. It's a great place to live in peace. At least where I live. I would not give that up even if I disagreed with some of our policies.

To that extent, I acquiesce.

[Thondalar]

For the record, I think everyone who made the decision to go to war with Iraq is culpable.

How do you feel about those who chose to go to war in Vietnam? Korea? WW1?

I'm guessing WW2 is the only military act you agree with, since Japan physically attacked us first, and Germany later declared war, although not directly attacking our "soil".

"Everyone who made the decision to go to war with Iraq" is a LOT of people. We're talking about the leaders of 40 countries, and every intelligence and military asset therewith. It would be an international tribunal the sort of which has never been seen before, even after WW2.

Look, I get it. You didn't approve of the US going to Iraq. Did you approve of us defending Kuwait in the first "Gulf War"? Do you approve of any use of US military force outside of our borders for any reason at all? Is there a situation where you would approve?

[Thondalar]

I look at it this way. We are all Americans despite our political differences. Thus, we are all culpable either way.

Culpable for what?


We vote and as far as we know those votes count.

Haha. Seriously, lol. The two parties most people vote for have, for a long time now, been less about any sort of principle and more about doing the opposite of what the other side does. The platforms have become so convoluted that anyone approaching it from the outside looking in wouldn't be able to make any sense of it.


It would be disingenuous of me as an American to not take some responsibility for our votes for out leaders despite my not having voted for certain leaders because I have not abandon my country.

I can only imagine that sometimes you get so caught up in your own thoughts that your typing can't keep up, and you put out a nonsensical string like this.


Yeah, I disagree with some of our decisions, but I still like it here. It's a great place to live in peace.

We're always going to disagree with some decisions. It's human nature. Everyone thinks they know best, which is fundamentally flawed because very few of us have personally experienced all of the possible situations that would impart such knowledge. We mostly base our beliefs on assumptions and associations. It IS a great place to live, but I think you need to dig a little deeper and really understand the things that have happened to get us here.


At least where I live. I would not give that up even if I disagreed with some of our policies.

You passed the citizen test. Congratulations, comrade.

[Warriorbird]

Please tell us how you held yourself accountable for the bad decisions of President Bush or any other Republican. I'd ask you about bad decisions by President Obama or Democrats, but we both know you don't believe they make them.

How about he just holds himself accountable for alcohol consumption? Or is that a step too far?

[Parkbandit]

I look at it this way. We are all Americans despite our political differences. Thus, we are all culpable either way. We vote and as far as we know those votes count.

It would be disingenuous of me as an American to not take some responsibility for our votes for out leaders despite my not having voted for certain leaders because I have not abandon my country.

Yeah, I disagree with some of our decisions, but I still like it here. It's a great place to live in peace. At least where I live. I would not give that up even if I disagreed with some of our policies.

To that extent, I acquiesce.


Fan-fucking-tastic...

So... again....

Please tell us how you held yourself accountable for the bad decisions of our government.

[Parkbandit]

How about he just holds himself accountable for alcohol consumption? Or is that a step too far?


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TJJ5v6FhNQs/UACVuAFBnqI/AAAAAAAAAOk/MVFkfyXMOVg/s1600/too_far.gif

[tyrant-201]

How do you feel about those who chose to go to war in Vietnam? Korea? WW1?

I'm guessing WW2 is the only military act you agree with, since Japan physically attacked us first, and Germany later declared war, although not directly attacking our "soil".

"Everyone who made the decision to go to war with Iraq" is a LOT of people. We're talking about the leaders of 40 countries, and every intelligence and military asset therewith. It would be an international tribunal the sort of which has never been seen before, even after WW2.

Look, I get it. You didn't approve of the US going to Iraq. Did you approve of us defending Kuwait in the first "Gulf War"? Do you approve of any use of US military force outside of our borders for any reason at all? Is there a situation where you would approve?

I don't agree with war, period.

WW1 I can tolerate, as german submarines continuously sank American ships despite being warned not to.

Korea at least had UN cooperation and approval.

Vietnam was wrong.

Kuwait I don't know enough about to comment. I don't agree with being the world police, thus I don't support many wars.

Historically, war crimes prosecutions are not simply limited to one person as a figure-head. So do I think Bush was responsible? Yes. Is he the only one? No

[Parkbandit]

Kuwait I don't know enough about to comment. I don't agree with being the world police, thus I don't support many wars.


Iraq invaded Kuwait. Kuwait is an ally. We supported our ally.

[Back]

Culpable for what?



Haha. Seriously, lol. The two parties most people vote for have, for a long time now, been less about any sort of principle and more about doing the opposite of what the other side does. The platforms have become so convoluted that anyone approaching it from the outside looking in wouldn't be able to make any sense of it.



I can only imagine that sometimes you get so caught up in your own thoughts that your typing can't keep up, and you put out a nonsensical string like this.



We're always going to disagree with some decisions. It's human nature. Everyone thinks they know best, which is fundamentally flawed because very few of us have personally experienced all of the possible situations that would impart such knowledge. We mostly base our beliefs on assumptions and associations. It IS a great place to live, but I think you need to dig a little deeper and really understand the things that have happened to get us here.



You passed the citizen test. Congratulations, comrade.

Fuck me right, fuck me wrong, fuck it. I'm fucked. At least buy me a drink.

[tyrant-201]

Iraq invaded Kuwait. Kuwait is an ally. We supported our ally.

And Saddam was our guy, up until then.

[Back]

Iraq invaded Kuwait. Kuwait is an ally. We supported our ally.

We supported oil.

[Parkbandit]

We supported oil.

Did you think we shouldn't?

Still waiting on how you held yourself accountable. Pour another glass full of courage and let it rip!

[Back]

Did you think we shouldn't?

Still waiting on how you held yourself accountable. Pour another glass full of courage and let it rip!

We should not have. Despite my being against it I can see how I was complicit. I did protest the first Gulf War but again that was the extent of my disagreement.

I say I am accountable because I am American and belong to the tribe weather I agree or disagree.

[Parkbandit]

We should not have. Despite my being against it I can see how I was complicit. I did protest the first Gulf War but again that was the extent of my disagreement.

So, you don't believe in alliances?



I say I am accountable because I am American and belong to the tribe weather I agree or disagree.

I'm not surprised you clearly don't know the definition of accountable...

[Gelston]

We should not have. Despite my being against it I can see how I was complicit. I did protest the first Gulf War but again that was the extent of my disagreement.

I say I am accountable because I am American and belong to the tribe weather I agree or disagree.

It isn't Tuesday.

[Back]

What do you think accountable means?

On second thought forget it. I know your games. Go play with yourself.

[Back]

It isn't Tuesday.

I only drunk when I'm post.

[Parkbandit]

I only drunk when I'm post.

Yes.. Blame your utter stupidity on alcohol as usual.

Get help. Or don't.

No one really cares.

[Back]

Yes.. Blame your utter stupidity on alcohol as usual.

Get help. Or don't.

No one really cares.

Its not the alcohol talking. It's the person. Deride me all you want. Post pictures, call me names, call me stupid.

I have beliefs. And I have Hunan Chicken that needs to be devoured. Excuse me.

[Parkbandit]

Its not the alcohol talking. It's the person. Deride me all you want. Post pictures, call me names, call me stupid.

I have beliefs. And I have Hunan Chicken that needs to be devoured. Excuse me.

You poor little victim you!

How dare I actually ask you to explain a post you made while in yet another drunken stupor.

I apologize.

[Thondalar]

I don't agree with war, period.

Hey, I don't either. But fuck, man, you can't have your head that far in the clouds to think it's going to simply stop happening.


WW1 I can tolerate, as german submarines continuously sank American ships despite being warned not to.

But...I thought you didn't agree with war, period? Your words.


Korea at least had UN cooperation and approval.

So did the Gulf Wars.


Vietnam was wrong.

We probably wouldn't have a United States without France...you really think it was wrong for us to try to help out French Indochina? I completely understand wanting to be oblivious to the machinations between States...it's easier that way. But if you're going to discuss things using anything besides fairy dust and hyperbole, you probably shouldn't lead out with that.


Kuwait I don't know enough about to comment. I don't agree with being the world police, thus I don't support many wars.

Well, as previously stated, I don't agree with being the world police either, on it's face...however...if we don't do it, who will? Someone has to. Would you feel better if the Country you lived in WASN'T the main global power? That's what I always come back to when I have misgivings.


Historically, war crimes prosecutions are not simply limited to one person as a figure-head. So do I think Bush was responsible? Yes. Is he the only one? No

That was pretty much my point. Not that they aren't limited to, but that they very rarely, if ever, actually include the "Head of State".

For the same reason these courts rarely prosecute the Head of State, I don't place much blame at all on Bush himself. We have countless failed resolutions from the UN (actually, we CAN count them...14 I think, just going on memory...it's around that), and we have the fact that Bush himself didn't declare war, because that's not within his powers as President. The US Senate declared war, by an overwhelming majority. In this particular instance, the president is very much a figurehead, and would be the least culpable in any sort of International Tribunal. Our system at work!

[Thondalar]

Fuck me right, fuck me wrong, fuck it. I'm fucked. At least buy me a drink.

Dude, I would LOVE to buy you a drink. If you ever find yourself around central Florida, shoot me a PC mail. Real talk. I've offered this countless times on here, to many people...some wanting to kick my ass, some just saying they would be in the area...

I'm totally genuine, so far, no takers. :(

[Thondalar]

We supported oil.

The problem all you people have who think this is the fact that neither the US government, nor any US company, nor any subsidiary of any US company, owns a single drop of Iraqi oil.

Just like the aftermath of WW1 and WW2, we gave everything back to the people that lived there.


edit: added a necessary "neither" and "r". Also, to add to what I was saying here, I could understand all the US-hating by our own people if we were taking over everything...but we're not. If we were really all that terrible, we'd own 3/4 of Europe and half of Asia right now. We don't.

[Thondalar]

Its not the alcohol talking. It's the person. Deride me all you want. Post pictures, call me names, call me stupid.

I have beliefs. And I have Hunan Chicken that needs to be devoured. Excuse me.

I only post when I'm drunk.

The difference between you and I is, I can still form a coherent post.

[Warriorbird]

Dude, I would LOVE to buy you a drink. If you ever find yourself around central Florida, shoot me a PC mail. Real talk. I've offered this countless times on here, to many people...some wanting to kick my ass, some just saying they would be in the area...

I'm totally genuine, so far, no takers. :(

I've only had a few people show up to our wine festival, for theoretically a day full of drinking. I think people are shy about hanging out with people from forums because they're afraid they'll A. be weird B. be Craigslist killers.

[Latrinsorm]

Hey, I don't either. But fuck, man, you can't have your head that far in the clouds to think it's going to simply stop happening. But...I thought you didn't agree with war, period? Your words. Agree and tolerate are not synonyms. Consider two people who try your cooking:
"That meal agreed with me."
"I tolerated that meal."
See?

[tyrant-201]

Hey, I don't either. But fuck, man, you can't have your head that far in the clouds to think it's going to simply stop happening.

But...I thought you didn't agree with war, period? Your words.

I don't, I'm not under the illusion that they're going to stop happening. But I'd like ample and proper reason before we decide to take up arms against another people.


So did the First Gulf War*

FTFY. The Iraq War had a "Coalition of the Willing" And not UN security council approval. As far as the UN was concerned, per Kofi Annan in 2004: "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_and_the_Iraq_War



We probably wouldn't have a United States without France...you really think it was wrong for us to try to help out French Indochina? I completely understand wanting to be oblivious to the machinations between States...it's easier that way. But if you're going to discuss things using anything besides fairy dust and hyperbole, you probably shouldn't lead out with that.

So anyone who has helped us in the past is deserving of our siding with them in an unjust, colonialist war? Who is delusional here? What claim did France have on Indochina?




Well, as previously stated, I don't agree with being the world police either, on it's face...however...if we don't do it, who will? Someone has to. Would you feel better if the Country you lived in WASN'T the main global power? That's what I always come back to when I have misgivings.

I'm not under the impression that the world needs policing. It did fine on its own for thousands of years.




That was pretty much my point. Not that they aren't limited to, but that they very rarely, if ever, actually include the "Head of State".


Only when its convenient for us.

[Wrathbringer]

People like me. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose)

People like those in the op title. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany)

What people like those in the op do to people like me, you and anyone else that dissents. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)

If you can still scream usa usa usa after reading these (especially the first link), then you are a fascist. It's going to happen again. Will you stand idly by? Of course not. You'll help them. You'll cheer them. You already do. Think about it.

[Wrathbringer]

I've only had a few people show up to our wine festival, for theoretically a day full of drinking. I think people are shy about hanging out with people from forums because they're afraid they'll A. be weird B. be Craigslist killers.

C. Be Wrathbringer

[Wrathbringer]

Dude, I would LOVE to buy you a drink. If you ever find yourself around central Florida, shoot me a PC mail. Real talk. I've offered this countless times on here, to many people...some wanting to kick my ass, some just saying they would be in the area...

I'm totally genuine, so far, no takers. :(

Probably because you've threatened to talk.

[cwolff]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/opinion/iraq-war-anniversary-.html


No one knows for certain how many Iraqis have died as a result of the invasion 15 years ago. Some credible estimates put the number at more than one million. You can read that sentence again. The invasion of Iraq is often spoken of in the United States as a “blunder,” or even a “colossal mistake.” It was a crime. Those who perpetrated it are still at large. Some of them have even been rehabilitated thanks to the horrors of Trumpism and a mostly amnesiac citizenry. (A year ago, I watched Mr. Bush on “The Ellen DeGeneres Show,” dancing and talking about his paintings.) The pundits and “experts” who sold us the war still go on doing what they do. I never thought that Iraq could ever be worse than it was during Saddam’s reign, but that is what America’s war achieved and bequeathed to Iraqis.

[Back]

People like me. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose)

People like those in the op title. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany)

What people like those in the op do to people like me, you and anyone else that dissents. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)

If you can still scream usa usa usa after reading these (especially the first link), then you are a fascist. It's going to happen again. Will you stand idly by? Of course not. You'll help them. You'll cheer them. You already do. Think about it.

?