Students at UC Irvine ban the American flag

[Candor]

(FOXNews) Students at the University of California, Irvine have voted to make their school a more “culturally inclusive” place by banning the American flag.

The Associated Students of University of California (ASUCI) passed a resolution March 3 that would remove the Stars & Stripes along with every other flag from the lobby of a complex housing the offices of the student government.

“Designing a culturally inclusive space aims to remove barriers that create undue effort and separation by planning and designing spaces that enable everyone to participate equally and confidentially,” read the resolution authored by Matthew Guevara.

------------------------------

Leave it to the California libs to come up with this idea. I wonder what country they think pays the taxes to keep UCI running?

The source is FOXNews, so yes I verified it (in the case of FOXNews, I don't trust and I verify). Here's a link of interest (you might need a Facebook account):

https://www.facebook.com/associatedstudentsuci/posts/952251074786334

[JackWhisper]

Fox is a bunch of fucking idiots. They're removing EVERY flag. This is not news. This is just vulturing.

[Candor]

Fox is a bunch of fucking idiots. They're removing EVERY flag. This is not news. This is just vulturing.

I don't care if they are removing EVERY other flag. What I care about is that they are removing the AMERICAN flag. Does that really need to be explained?

Read the comments in the Facebook link. Most people seem rather upset with the decision.

[Taernath]

I don't care if they are removing EVERY flag. What I care about is that they are removing the AMERICAN flag. Does that really need to be explained?

Read the comments in the Facebook link. Most people seem rather upset with the decision.

Facebook is an accurate representation of demographics and public opinion.

[Tgo01]

How was displaying any flag hurting anyone's feelings? I'm assuming people were just hanging country flags, right? No one went in there with an ISIS flag and the student body was like "Well shit! We can't ban just certain flags! Guess we have to ban'em all."

[JackWhisper]

How was displaying any flag hurting anyone's feelings? I'm assuming people were just hanging country flags, right? No one went in there with an ISIS flag and the student body was like "Well shit! We can't ban just certain flags! Guess we have to ban'em all."

In this, I just don't get it. I understand displaying pride in your country most anywhere else *My house has an American flag flying proudly, because Military and shit*, but at a college where it is expressly designed to cater to every single ethnic demographic, I can see how they just want it removed so that everyone is equal. If there are flags up, people bitch one's higher than others. Cleaner than others. More prominently positioned than others. It's just an easy target.

[Androidpk]

How was displaying any flag hurting anyone's feelings? I'm assuming people were just hanging country flags, right? No one went in there with an ISIS flag and the student body was like "Well shit! We can't ban just certain flags! Guess we have to ban'em all."

The ISIS affiliated students were offended.

[Silvean]

http://news.uci.edu/briefs/asuci-president-offers-statement-on-flag-ban-bill/

[Jarvan]

In this, I just don't get it. I understand displaying pride in your country most anywhere else *My house has an American flag flying proudly, because Military and shit*, but at a college where it is expressly designed to cater to every single ethnic demographic, I can see how they just want it removed so that everyone is equal. If there are flags up, people bitch one's higher than others. Cleaner than others. More prominently positioned than others. It's just an easy target.

Umm.. in America.. The American flag is always displayed higher.

Maybe the Students forgot they were in AMERICA. Not to mention.. if the American flag being displayed upsets some students.. they should get the fuck out of the country.

[Candor]

If the American flag being displayed somewhere in America offends someone, then tough shit.

[Ardwen]

while I have no major feeling about the issue itself, the actual legislation the way its written is itself insulting, sorry but the American flag isn't a negative, if you don't like it leave.

[JackWhisper]

I actually just read the legislation, because this apparently is growing into a thing on Reddit now.

Ardwen is right. That's god damned insulting.

This isn't about equality, they're demeaning the American flag. That is a no-no.

[Tgo01]

Whereas freedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible can be interpreted as hate speech.

So...wait...what? In order to be "inclusive" they think they should limit free speech because free speech can be interpreted as hate speech?

Sure, just about anything can be interpreted as hate speech if you're specifically looking for something to be offended about. That's why we have free speech and laws and courts to determine when free speech goes too far. We don't say "Well just to be on the safe side we're going to ban all of this."

[Candor]

From Campus Reform http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6335

“[F]lags construct paradigms of conformity and sets [sic] homogenized standards for others to obtain which in this country typically are idolized as freedom, equality, and democracy," the bill reads.

The legislation argues that flags may be interpreted differently; the American flag, for example, can represent “American exceptionalism and superiority,” as well as oppression.

“[T]he American flag has been flown in instances of colonialism and imperialism,” the bill continues, arguing that “symbolism has negative and positive aspects that are interpreted differently by individuals.”

The anti-flag hanging bill adds that free speech, such as flags in inclusive spaces, can be interpreted as hate speech.

“[F]reedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible[,] can be interpreted as hate speech,” the bill reads.

“Let it be resolved that ASUCI make every effort to make the Associated Students main lobby space as inclusive as possible.”

“Let it further be resolved that no flag, of any nation, may be hanged on the walls of the Associate Student main lobby space.”

“Let it be further be resolved that if a decorative item is in the Associate student lobby space and issues arise, the solution will be to remove the item if there is considerable request to do so.”

[Androidpk]

So...wait...what? In order to be "inclusive" they think they should limit free speech because free speech can be interpreted as hate speech?

Sure, just about anything can be interpreted as hate speech if you're specifically looking for something to be offended about. That's why we have free speech and laws and courts to determine when free speech goes too far. We don't say "Well just to be on the safe side we're going to ban all of this."

Welcome to double speak!

[Silvean]

Sometimes young people act on the ideas they are exposed to in classrooms and books without reflection or a deep understanding of the issues involved. This legislation passed with a 6 to 4 vote of some college students. The president of their student government opposes it and is working on getting a veto.

http://www.asuci.uci.edu/legislative/legislations/print.php?cnum=R50-70&gov_branch=ASUCI

[Tgo01]

Let's see what the American bald eagle thinks about all of this.

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/meh.ro7283.jpg

Well, that about sums it up.

[Warriorbird]

Thanks for justifying the sort of people who professionally write email forwards to your elderly relatives, California students.

[Jarvan]

Let's see what the American bald eagle thinks about all of this.

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/meh.ro7283.jpg

Well, that about sums it up.

Love that Eagle.

[Gelston]

Fox is a bunch of fucking idiots. They're removing EVERY flag. This is not news. This is just vulturing.

Don't know the actual story, don't know what is the truth... My feelings are though...

This is a university in the United States. Our flag should be there.

[JackWhisper]

Yeah I read the article first without reading the legislation. That's my bad, I was completely off base. I erroneously assumed it was just a student group trying to have equality for all people. No. SO not what's going on. I am not ashamed to say I reversed my stance and damn fast when I actually read what they were saying about it all. This is clearly an insult to our country's flag.

[Gelston]

Read from the original link. It is some retarded students with a facebook post.

It isn't the University. It isn't anything else. I can make a facebook page right now for LSUS and say that I want to replace the US Flag with a Nazi flag and it would be the same thing.

A couple college kids are being fucktards. Nothing to see here.

[Tgo01]

Read from the original link. It is some retarded students with a facebook post.

It isn't the University. It isn't anything else. I can make a facebook page right now for LSUS and say that I want to replace the US Flag with a Nazi flag and it would be the same thing.

A couple college kids are being fucktards. Nothing to see here.

It was legislation passed by the student government. I have no idea if this particular resolution is enforceable or if the school can just say "Fuck you" but it does seem to be a thing.

http://www.asuci.uci.edu/legislative/legislations/print.php?cnum=R50-70&gov_branch=ASUCI


All requests may be typed and submitted to the Executive Vice President no later 5:00 p.m. Thursday in order to be included in the agenda for the following Tuesday. The Executive Vice President reserves the right to delay the Request for Action to a later Council session if the Executive Vice President feels the agenda for the next schedule meeting is full.

Item Number: 81 Legislation Number (B: Bill, R: Resolution): R50-70
Author: Matthew Guevara Second: Khaalidah Sidney
Synopsis: Flags and decoration adjustment for inclusivity
Date of Presentation: March 3rd, 2015




Whereas flags are a symbol of a nation, are used as decorations and have a wide range of cultural significance.



Whereas flags are typically viewed as patriotic symbols of a single nation, are often associated with government and military due to their history and have a wide variety of interpretations.



Whereas the traditional patriotic interpretation of a flag is a result of a nation and/or persons who encourage a nationalistic understanding of the flag.



Whereas traditional understandings and ideologies, as encouraged by the national government, include liberty, democracy, constitution values and are up for interpretation on constituents.



Whereas flags not only serve as symbols of patriotism or weapons for nationalism, but also construct cultural mythologies and narratives that in turn charge nationalistic sentiments.



Whereas flags function specifically for a nation and



Whereas people are assimilated into national ideologies by deployment of this cultural artifact.



Whereas flags construct paradigms of conformity and sets homogenized standards for others to obtain which in this country typically are idolized as freedom, equality, and democracy.



Whereas symbolism is interpreted differently by different groups or persons based on individual unique experiences.



Whereas a common ideological understanding of the United states includes American exceptionalism and superiority.



Whereas the American flag is commonly flown in government public service locations, military related entities, at homes, in foreign lands where the US government has a presence.



Whereas the American flag has been flown in instances of colonialism and imperialism.



Whereas symbolism has negative and positive aspects that are interpreted differently by individuals.



Whereas displaying a flag does not express only selective aspects of its symbolism but the entire spectrum of its interpretation.



Whereas designing a culturally inclusive space is taken seriously by ASUCI



Whereas designing a culturally inclusive space aims to remove barriers that create undue effort and separation by planning and designing spaces that enable everyone to participate equally and confidently.



Whereas the removal of barriers is the best option at promoting an inclusive space.



Whereas it is a psychological effect for individuals to identify negative aspects of a space rather than positive ones.



Whereas whenever public spaces are produced and managed by narrow interests, they are bound to become exclusive places and



Whereas the planning process must be inclusive in such that designers are advised to forget about the ‘average’ user or themselves and instead begin the open space designing process with ‘deep knowledge’ of the preferences of the actual communities who are likely to use those spaces



Whereas designers should be careful about using cultural symbols as the symbols will inherently remain open for interpretation.



Whereas once an open space is created, it is important to employ continual evaluation in order to understand changing use patterns and needs over time.



Whereas a high-quality culturally inclusive spaces is essential in any society that embodies a dynamic and multifaceted culture



Whereas freedom of speech is a valued right that ASUCI supports.



Whereas freedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible can be interpreted as hate speech.



Let it be resolved that ASUCI make every effort to make the Associated Students main lobby space as inclusive as possible.



Let it further be resolved that no flag, of any nation, may be hanged on the walls of the Associate Student main lobby space.



Let it be further be resolved that if a decorative item is in the Associate student lobby space and issues arise, the solution will be to remove the item if there is considerable request to do so.



Referred to: Committee on:
Vote Required: Majority FINAL VOTE: Passed YEA: 6 NAY: 4 ABS: 2

THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF THE ASSOCIATED STUDENTS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFONIA, IRVINE ON THE DATE OF March 5th, 2015 HAS TAKEN ACTION ON THIS LEGISLATION.

[Warriorbird]

Student government members are often idiots.

[Jace Solo]

I can't even stand this. I live close enough. If I hear of a rally or something I'm going to go and remind them off all the people that have died waving that flag so that they could even write a bullshit "bill" like this. They should 1) be ashamed 2) go back to their own country or if they originated in the USA 3) be exported to somewhere else where they can be happy without free speech...since it hurts their feelings.

My friends and family didn't die so that this country could be taken out from underneath itself. This is a step in the total wrong direction.

[Gelston]

It was legislation passed by the student government. I have no idea if this particular resolution is enforceable or if the school can just say "Fuck you" but it does seem to be a thing.

http://www.asuci.uci.edu/legislative/legislations/print.php?cnum=R50-70&gov_branch=ASUCI

The student government that had 12 votes total in it.

[JackWhisper]

I can't even stand this. I live close enough. If I hear of a rally or something I'm going to go and remind them off all the people that have died waving that flag so that they could even write a bullshit "bill" like this. They should 1) be ashamed 2) go back to their own country or if they originated in the USA 3) be exported to somewhere else where they can be happy without free speech...since it hurts their feelings.

My friends and family didn't die so that this country could be taken out from underneath itself. This is a step in the total wrong direction.

I will pay your ingame character 500k if you go and tell them off and put it on youtube. Just saying.

[Tgo01]

The student government that had 12 votes total in it.

And from the picture I saw only 1 white male in that government body, so technically it's not a real government.

[Jarvan]

The student government that had 12 votes total in it.

Well.. to be fair...

Obama has only a Pen and a Phone and he changes laws all the time.

[Thondalar]

If they were actually "designing a culturally inclusive place" wouldn't they include ALL flags? Seems to me like they did the opposite...they created something really boring.

[Thondalar]

Well.. to be fair...

Obama has only a Pen and a Phone and he changes laws all the time.

He hasn't changed any laws.

[Jarvan]

He hasn't changed any laws.

Depends on your interpretation...

The ACA required all employers to be compliment with the law by 2014. They still don't need to be because Obama changed it.

Hence, changed the law.

[Thondalar]

Depends on your interpretation...

The ACA required all employers to be compliment with the law by 2014. They still don't need to be because Obama changed it.

Hence, changed the law.

He changed the actual wording of the law? Can you direct me to a link or something?

[Thondalar]

So...wait...what? In order to be "inclusive" they think they should limit free speech because free speech can be interpreted as hate speech?

Sure, just about anything can be interpreted as hate speech if you're specifically looking for something to be offended about. That's why we have free speech and laws and courts to determine when free speech goes too far. We don't say "Well just to be on the safe side we're going to ban all of this."


This is what happens when we stray from black and white. Grey areas only get larger over time.

[Warriorbird]

Pretty much my favorite place at my undergrad. I'm clearly an awful colonialist oppressor.

http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-Gb3DSs7/0/L/i-Gb3DSs7-L.jpg

[Tgo01]

You know you done fucked up when the PC is in full agreement on something.

[ZeP]

Yeah I read the article first without reading

Impressive

[JackWhisper]

Don't know the actual story, don't know what is the truth... My feelings are though...

This is a university in the United States. Our flag should be there.

This is where I completely misinterpreted. The University, I assumed, has their own flags *Which ought to include the American flag, and anything else they prefer to have up there*. But it's not associated with the student government whatever building, right?

Either way, it's fucked. But at least part of what I read made sense in my head. America should be represented in the college. I just thought they were trying to have a neutral zone. Apparently they're just dipshits who are trying to pot stir cultural angst.

Sort of ridiculous. I had to read it all about four times to wrap my head around the stupid. This is quite disappointing that our young people are doing this nowadays.

[Smythe]

Dis shit really grinds my gears.

Fewkin' pergs!

- Smythe

[ZeP]

Dis shit really grinds my gears.

Fewkin' pergs!

- Smythe

+1

[Tenlaar]

if the American flag being displayed upsets some students.. they should get the fuck out of the country.

sorry but the American flag isn't a negative, if you don't like it leave.

2) go back to their own country

I'd guess that attitudes like yours are the root cause of the actions they have decided to take.

Has everybody already forgotten the thread about the kids who went to school waving the american flag and shit on Cinco de Mayo? The flag can absolutely be used as hate speech, and it usually accompanies words like...you know...go back where you belong.

[~Rocktar~]

Nope, didn't forget that either, and those who want to make shit out of another made up holiday can get bent.

[Thondalar]

I'd guess that attitudes like yours are the root cause of the actions they have decided to take.

Has everybody already forgotten the thread about the kids who went to school waving the american flag and shit on Cinco de Mayo? The flag can absolutely be used as hate speech, and it usually accompanies words like...you know...go back where you belong.

It's America. The only way you could perceive the flag as hate speech is if you hate America.

[Tenlaar]

It's America. The only way you could perceive the flag as hate speech is if you hate America.

That is a ridiculous statement.

[JackWhisper]

That is a ridiculous statement to anyone who hates America.

FTFY, bro.

[Wrathbringer]

This is much like the rebel flag. It may stand for positive ideals, but it also represents some horrible injustices that took place under it. I personally don't display an American flag for the same reason. I'm no longer proud of what it represents. People that blindly buy into patriotism are as bad as militant muslims.

[Ardwen]

See that's the problem, because someone has done ill under our flag doesn't make or flag a negative, it makes that person or persons a negative, unless of course you think the nation itself is a negative, in which case you need to GTFO

[JackWhisper]

See that's the problem, because someone has done ill under our flag doesn't make or flag a negative, it makes that person or persons a negative, unless of course you think the nation itself is a negative, in which case you need to GTFO

Wrath would never leave the USA. No other country would let him evade taxes, drive without insurance, and sticky note his tags. All to save a few bucks.

[Jarvan]

I'd guess that attitudes like yours are the root cause of the actions they have decided to take.

Has everybody already forgotten the thread about the kids who went to school waving the american flag and shit on Cinco de Mayo? The flag can absolutely be used as hate speech, and it usually accompanies words like...you know...go back where you belong.

The one story about that I heard, was where the kids wore shirts with the American flag on them. And the principal made them take them off or go home for fear that the Mexican students would beat the shit out of them.

So.. which group in that scenario would be the bad group.

Yeah... the "Americans". They would be the "bad" people for showing American Pride during a "Holiday" that pretty much no one but one town in Mexico observes.


"How Big a Deal is Cinco de Mayo?:

Cinco de Mayo is a big deal in Puebla, where the famous battle took place but it really isn't as important as most people think. September 16, Independence Day, is a much more important holiday in Mexico. For some reason, Cinco de Mayo is celebrated more in the United States of America, by Mexicans and Americans alike, than it is in Mexico. One theory for why it is more popular in the USA is that at one time, it was celebrated in all of Mexico and by Mexicans living in former Mexican territories such as Texas and California. It was ignored in Mexico after a while but still celebrated north of the border, which never got out of the habit of remembering the famous battle."

Frankly.. I think the only reason it is even a day here is because Americans LOVE an excuse to get drunk. If it was "Mexican pride" why don't they celebrate Sept 16th? I wonder how many of the people that celebrate Cinco de Mayo even know what it is for, or what Sept 16th is.

[Jarvan]

See that's the problem, because someone has done ill under our flag doesn't make or flag a negative, it makes that person or persons a negative, unless of course you think the nation itself is a negative, in which case you need to GTFO

I agree 100%.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of 3 flags that I personally think should never be displayed.

Nazi flag
ISIS flag
And USSR flag

The last because I had family murdered by them.

[Wrathbringer]

I agree 100%.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of 3 flags that I personally think should never be displayed.

Nazi flag
ISIS flag
And USSR flag

The last because I had family murdered by them.

You agree, then state where and why you disagree, which is in direct conflict with the former...

[Wrathbringer]

See that's the problem, because someone has done ill under our flag doesn't make or flag a negative, it makes that person or persons a negative, unless of course you think the nation itself is a negative, in which case you need to GTFO

Go fly a Nazi flag in Germany and use that as your reasoning.

[Ardwen]

Except the Nazi flag is no longer the state flag of the German Nation, which would make it a completely different argument, in theory you could equate the Nazi flag with the confederate and maybe have an argument. And hey many people agree with you and consider the Confederate flag a negative.

[JackWhisper]

Except the Nazi flag is no longer the state flag of the German Nation, which would make it a completely different argument, in theory you could equate the Nazi flag with the confederate and maybe have an argument. And hey many people agree with you and consider the Confederate flag a negative.

Do the KKK have a flag? I mean if you're trying to draw a parallel.

[Fallen]

If they're trying to create a gathering place free of concepts like nationalistic pride, then they should do so at a new location on campus rather than trying to alter an existing part by removing symbols of national pride. That in itself is an insensitive act.

[Wrathbringer]

Except the Nazi flag is no longer the state flag of the German Nation, which would make it a completely different argument, in theory you could equate the Nazi flag with the confederate and maybe have an argument. And hey many people agree with you and consider the Confederate flag a negative.

Granted. I simply believe that we must be able to call out evil regardless of what flag it happens to be waving. Whether we like it or not, the many despicable acts perpetrated by our government upon foreign countries as well as our own citizens under this flag are just a google search away.

[Jarvan]

Granted. I simply believe that we must be able to call out evil regardless of what flag it happens to be waving. Whether we like it or not, the many despicable acts perpetrated by our government upon foreign countries as well as our own citizens under this flag are just a google search away.

By Your reasoning, no flag ever should be flown.

[Wrathbringer]

By Your reasoning, no flag ever should be flown.

Exactly.;)

[Jarvan]

Exactly.;)

Well, at least you are honest... when it comes to this anyway.

[Ardwen]

So the many millions of lives saved by troops under our flag mean nothing, the many amazing and courageous acts by Americans are worthless, you only count the bad things. Man, your world must really suck.

[JackWhisper]

So the many millions of lives saved by troops under our flag mean nothing, the many amazing and courageous acts by Americans are worthless, you only count the bad things. Man, your world must really suck.

In his world there are no taxes or insurance. It's a dangerous place.

[Wrathbringer]

So the many millions of lives saved by troops under our flag mean nothing, the many amazing and courageous acts by Americans are worthless, you only count the bad things. Man, your world must really suck.

It's called reality. You should visit sometime. And yes, it sucks. Fantasy land is easy, as you've demonstrated. 'Murica!

[Lord Orbstar]

Pretty much, I hate wrathbringer and people like him. That is not hyperbole.

[Wrathbringer]

Pretty much, I hate people. That is not hyperbole.

And you're proud of that? Nazi.

[kutter]

Actually if the socialist kiddies there want to ban the National Ensign, let them, but then I want all federal funding for the school pulled. Since they no longer see it as representative of the Republic then they clearly do not need the Republics funding. I wonder how fast that resolution would change then?

[Wrathbringer]

Actually if the socialist kiddies there want to ban the National Ensign, let them, but then I want all federal funding for the school pulled. Since they no longer see it as representative of the Republic then they clearly do not need the Republics funding. I wonder how fast that resolution would change then?

Yes, because freedom to make their own decisions about what is displayed in their common areas must be punished. I thought this was murica land of the free? This thread is rife with hypocrisy.

Edit: whatever happened to, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it?" It exists as an axiom only today.

[JackWhisper]

Yes, because freedom to make their own decisions about what is displayed in their common areas must be punished. I thought this was murica land of the free? This thread is rife with hypocrisy.

Edit: whatever happened to, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it?" It exists as an axiom only today.

That doesn't apply to idiots who update their license plate tags with scotch tape, paper, and magic markers.

Try paying your taxes and you might get rights.

[Jarvan]

Yes, because freedom to make their own decisions about what is displayed in their common areas must be punished. I thought this was murica land of the free? This thread is rife with hypocrisy.

Edit: whatever happened to, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it?" It exists as an axiom only today.

Let me rephrase it in a way you would understand....

Wrathbringer "Fuck the government, I will not pay taxes, they can kiss my ass!" "Shit, someone broke into my house and stole from me, Call the cops they need to come and deal with this"

[Wrathbringer]

Let me rephrase it in a way you would understand....

Wrathbringer "Fuck the government, I will not pay taxes, they can kiss my ass!" "Shit, someone broke into my house and stole from me, Call the cops they need to come and deal with this"

If that made any sense at all, I'd craft a response. As it is, poor troll is poor.

[Silvean]

Except the Nazi flag is no longer the state flag of the German Nation, which would make it a completely different argument, in theory you could equate the Nazi flag with the confederate and maybe have an argument. And hey many people agree with you and consider the Confederate flag a negative.

Interestingly, it's illegal to display a Nazi flag in Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

[Astray]

One thing I notice about American campuses and... pretty much everywhere, is that there is always a flag present. Is it really patriotism or is just something that is just present?

[Ardwen]

And how many southern states have had suits to remove the Confederate flag from many public locations? There are no shortage of people that find that flag just as or more offensive then the Nazi symbols. Removing the flag of the nation which helped fund the Universities construction and likely pays parts of many of the student's tuition is ridiculous. I have to wonder how many veterans are currently attending that school and just how they feel about this.

[Silvean]

One thing I notice about American campuses and... pretty much everywhere, is that there is always a flag present. Is it really patriotism or is just something that is just present?

There's probably a JROTC (high school) or ROTC (college) raising and lowering the flag each day if that makes any difference. Universities are places where a diversity of ideas can interact; not all of these ideas are fully formed and they're certainly not all good. I suspect the average campus has some mix of patriotic Americans along with people who hate the idea of nation states entirely. I also suspect the flag fades into the background for many people; most undergrads are more interested in their own lives and the academics are focused on the details of 6th century pre-Islamic carvings in the Hijaz.

I've taught American history at the high school and college levels. In that context, and in my own life, I try to hold together the tension among the noblest aspects of America's history, its obvious sins, and the hope of what is yet to come. So whenever I see an American flag on campus, I think of these things and it is patriotic for me in that moment. I'm sure it's that way for other people too.

[Ker_Thwap]

And how many southern states have had suits to remove the Confederate flag from many public locations? There are no shortage of people that find that flag just as or more offensive then the Nazi symbols. Removing the flag of the nation which helped fund the Universities construction and likely pays parts of many of the student's tuition is ridiculous. I have to wonder how many veterans are currently attending that school and just how they feel about this.

I feel it's ridiculous for a few reasons. The one's you mentioned, and just as a way to generally celebrate diversity. Different cultures come together at colleges, often with real differences, and they still need to get along despite their differences. Simply hiding or removing flags, seems quite counterproductive to this.

Then again, I'm happy that they have the freedom to discuss this openly and form a consensus on what they want to do about it. People do all kinds of weird things, it doesn't really impact me.

[Some Rogue]

As it is, poop troll is poop.

:nutty:

[Gelston]

*This just in, UC Irvine students troll forums all over the internet*

[Jarvan]

I feel it's ridiculous for a few reasons. The one's you mentioned, and just as a way to generally celebrate diversity. Different cultures come together at colleges, often with real differences, and they still need to get along despite their differences. Simply hiding or removing flags, seems quite counterproductive to this.

Then again, I'm happy that they have the freedom to discuss this openly and form a consensus on what they want to do about it. People do all kinds of weird things, it doesn't really impact me.

True

[Astray]

True

Way to cover up your comment about raising an ISIS flag.

[Fallen]

I still say it's dumb they didn't just set up their diversity space in an area without flags, as opposed to taking down existing ones.

[Wrathbringer]

I still say it's dumb they didn't just set up their diversity space in an area without flags, as opposed to taking down existing ones.

Apparently they didn't want to do that. The decision should be respected by all those with respect for liberty.

[Fallen]

Apparently they didn't want to do that. The decision should be respected by all those with respect for liberty.

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i55/2/12/11/frabz-One-does-not-simply-know-if-you-ARE-being-serious-6a0ac3.jpg

[Jarvan]

Way to cover up your comment about raising an ISIS flag.

Yeah, I had read it wrong.

[Jarvan]

http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i55/2/12/11/frabz-One-does-not-simply-know-if-you-ARE-being-serious-6a0ac3.jpg

Wrath is never serious. Well.. he is Serious about not being Serious.

[Wrathbringer]

From Campus Reform http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6335

“[F]lags construct paradigms of conformity and sets [sic] homogenized standards for others to obtain which in this country typically are idolized as freedom, equality, and democracy," the bill reads.

The legislation argues that flags may be interpreted differently; the American flag, for example, can represent “American exceptionalism and superiority,” as well as oppression.

“[T]he American flag has been flown in instances of colonialism and imperialism,” the bill continues, arguing that “symbolism has negative and positive aspects that are interpreted differently by individuals.”

The anti-flag hanging bill adds that free speech, such as flags in inclusive spaces, can be interpreted as hate speech.

“[F]reedom of speech, in a space that aims to be as inclusive as possible[,] can be interpreted as hate speech,” the bill reads.

“Let it be resolved that ASUCI make every effort to make the Associated Students main lobby space as inclusive as possible.”

“Let it further be resolved that no flag, of any nation, may be hanged on the walls of the Associate Student main lobby space.”

“Let it be further be resolved that if a decorative item is in the Associate student lobby space and issues arise, the solution will be to remove the item if there is considerable request to do so.”

I'm completely serious when I say that I'm fine with them choosing to do this for the reasons outlined above. I know I'd rather not have to look at one, personally.

[rolfard]

Someone on campus ought to create "The America Club" and post all their fliers with giant American Flag's on them all over campus.

[Wrathbringer]

Someone on campus ought to create "The America Club" and post all their fliers with giant American Flag's on them all over campus.

They have those. They're called "rotc".

[ElevenElven]

So a bunch of college kids (or 12 apparently) were sitting around and decided they wanted to make the news, determined the best way to do so would be to shit on the American flag (proverbially), and make it into "college legislation" so they could get their 15 minutes of fame........

AND YOU ALL BOUGHT INTO IT? For shame. Americans getting trolled by attention starved college "legislators" (who, if the poster was serious.. are 1/12 white - that doesn't even meet the 3/5th criterion). Pfft. Wonder what's really going on right now in the world that they (media/government) want us to focus on this. Can't see why else they would make such a big deal about this shit.

'Murica. *bald eagle screech*

[Tgo01]

The problem as I see it is they pretty much enforced their ideals on the entire student body. They removed the flag from the "common" area, I'm assuming the "common" area is open to everyone.

I couldn't care less if the 6 people who voted yes hate the American flag or think it's racist or whatever their reasoning is, they sure do have the right to think that. When they stepped over the line is when they pushed their beliefs about the American flag on the entire campus, especially when they have the nerve to say their reasoning was to make the area more "inclusive."

Just like I have no problem with someone burning the American flag, free speech and all that, but I would be pretty pissed of a bunch of college students someone voted to take down the American flag that hangs somewhere on their campus and then burned it because they are no longer expressing their freedom of speech, they are suppressing the freedom of speech of others.

[Wrathbringer]

The problem as I see it is they pretty much enforced their ideals on the entire student body. They removed the flag from the "common" area, I'm assuming the "common" area is open to everyone.

I couldn't care less if the 6 people who voted yes hate the American flag or think it's racist or whatever their reasoning is, they sure do have the right to think that. When they stepped over the line is when they pushed their beliefs about the American flag on the entire campus, especially when they have the nerve to say their reasoning was to make the area more "inclusive."

Just like I have no problem with someone burning the American flag, free speech and all that, but I would be pretty pissed of a bunch of college students someone voted to take down the American flag that hangs somewhere on their campus and then burned it because they are no longer expressing their freedom of speech, they are suppressing the freedom of speech of others.

It's in the student government common area. The decision was made by representatives of that group.

[Tgo01]

It's in the student government common area. The decision was made by representatives of that group.

So only the student government has access to this particular room, ever? They're off to a good start being real politicians :D

But even then, the student government has like 20 or 30 members I think I read, most of which weren't even involved in this vote so they are still pushing their beliefs about the American flag onto others.

[Wrathbringer]

So only the student government has access to this particular room, ever? They're off to a good start being real politicians :D

But even then, the student government has like 20 or 30 members I think I read, most of which weren't even involved in this vote so they are still pushing their beliefs about the American flag onto others.

It's what government does. I don't like it any more than you do.

[Latrinsorm]

If you give people freedom, some of them are eventually going to do something you don't like, even something you hate. If you're really serious about freedom, you'll accept that. If you're not, you won't. That's it.
So the many millions of lives saved by troops under our flag mean nothing, the many amazing and courageous acts by Americans are worthless, you only count the bad things. Man, your world must really suck.The USSR sacrificed ten million lives as they (helped) rid the world of Nazism. Why didn't you defend their flag against Jarvan?
The problem as I see it is they pretty much enforced their ideals on the entire student body.That is how governments work, yes. The laws apply to everyone, not just those who agree with them.

[Tgo01]

That is how governments work, yes. The laws apply to everyone, not just those who agree with them.

Exactly. Another way government works is if the plebs don't like a decision made by the government then they can rant and rave and demand they reverse course without being accused of hating freedom.

[Jarvan]

That's it.The USSR sacrificed ten million lives as they (helped) rid the world of Nazism. Why didn't you defend their flag against Jarvan?

The USSR also sacrificed even more then 10 million of my people after WWII. Including some of my family. I think I have the right to hate that flag.

[Latrinsorm]

Exactly. Another way government works is if the plebs don't like a decision made by the government then they can rant and rave and demand they reverse course without being accused of hating freedom.A government NOT accusing its dissenters of hating freedom? No, Terry, that's not at all how it works.
The USSR also sacrificed even more then 10 million of my people after WWII. Including some of my family. I think I have the right to hate that flag.So if there were any Japanese-Americans or African-Americans on the student government panel or whatever, they too would have the right to hate our flag?

[Tgo01]

I could be wrong but I don't think Jarvan ever went over to the USSR and voted on taking down the USSR flag in any sort of fashion.

Also I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the current flag of Russia is:

http://www.all-flags-world.com/country-flag/Russia/flag-russia-XL.jpg

While the USSR flag, which to my knowledge no longer represents any country, looks like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a9/Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg/2000px-Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union.svg.png

[Latrinsorm]

I could be wrong but I don't think Jarvan ever went over to the USSR and voted on taking down the USSR flag in any sort of fashion.

Also I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the current flag of Russia is:

While the USSR flag, which to my knowledge no longer represents any country, looks like this:I didn't criticize Jarvan for voting on taking down the USSR flag. I criticized Ardwen for not defending flags based on the same reasoning.

[Tgo01]

I criticized Ardwen for not defending flags based on the same reasoning.

Why would he? Here is what Ardwen has already said on the matter of non national flags:


Except the Nazi flag is no longer the state flag of the German Nation, which would make it a completely different argument, in theory you could equate the Nazi flag with the confederate and maybe have an argument. And hey many people agree with you and consider the Confederate flag a negative.

[Parkbandit]

I'm completely serious when I say that I'm fine with them choosing to do this for the reasons outlined above. I know I'd rather not have to look at one, personally.

Show us on this scale reproduction of you where the mean American flag touched you...

http://i.imgur.com/ieVXZpy.jpg

[Wrathbringer]

Show us on this scale reproduction of you where the mean American flag touched you...

http://i.imgur.com/ieVXZpy.jpg

:lol: fascist!

[Wrathbringer]

So if there were any Japanese-Americans or African-Americans on the student government panel or whatever, they too would have the right to hate our flag?

OH HEEEELLLL NO!!1 IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT THEY CAN LEAVE!!!11! Don't they realize that we have a monopoly on hate? Murica!USAUSAUSA! Seriously, Glad you're finally here to set these cretins straight, Latrinsorm.

[Luntz]

I wipe my ass with a flag every morning as is my goddamn American right, if that hurts your feelings then gtfo of my country you whiny pussies

[Tgo01]

I wipe my ass with a flag every morning as is my goddamn American right, if that hurts your feelings then gtfo of my country you whiny pussies

An angry black man has joined the fight!

[rolfard]

At least there's a man who believes in waving the flag! Even if it is between his cheeks.

[Gelston]

I wipe my ass with a flag every morning as is my goddamn American right, if that hurts your feelings then gtfo of my country you whiny pussies

Sounds like you spend way too much money on flags.

[Candor]

Try going into another country and suggest on a college campus that the flag of their country should not be displayed in one of their public spaces.

Go ahead...try it. There are even a few countries where you might get away with it.

[ElevenElven]

As much as I hate Facebook, I do love that there are hundreds of Vets who are outraged by this on Facebook and the school is trying their hardest to cover their asses. After reading all the people saying "I'm no longer going to attend here" and "I was going to transfer there but now I'm not going to" this publicity stunt cost them quite a bit.

[kutter]

It is UC Berkley, they would never lower themselves to admit one of those warmongering veterans that guarantee their way of life.

[Wrathbringer]

As much as I hate Facebook, I do love that there are hundreds of mindless brainwashed zombies incapable of critical thought who are outraged by this on Facebook and the school is trying their hardest to cover their asses.

Ftfy

[waywardgs]

UC Berkley has historically been famously anti-war. Funny that an institution that has a pattern of not wanting to send soldiers off to die in some stupid war over a forgotten jungle or a sand pit evidently hates soldiers.

[Tgo01]

Looks like the student cabinet just fucking owned whatever the body is that passed this resolution in the first place:

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-uci-vote-to-ban-american-flag-others-misguided-20150307-story.html


A five-member executive cabinet overseeing UC Irvine's student government on Saturday vetoed a decision to ban the display of all flags, including the American flag.

“We fundamentally disagree with the actions taken by ASUCI Legislative Council and their passage of [the ban] as counter to the ideals that allow us to operate as an autonomous student government organization with the freedoms of speech and expression associated with it,” the cabinet said in a prepared statement.

“It is these very symbols that represent our constitutional rights… and our ability to openly debate all ranges of issues and pay tribute to how those liberties were attained.”

The student resolution adopted Thursday by the legislative council of the campus' Associated Students called for removing all flags from the common lobby area of student government offices.

Written by student Matthew Guevara of the school of social ecology, the resolution stated: "The American flag has been flown in instances of colonialism and imperialism" and notes that flags "construct paradigms of conformity and sets homogenized standards."

The resolution passed on a 6-4 vote by the student legislative council, with two abstentions.

On Saturday, UC Irvine issued a statement saying the student government vote was "misguided."

"This misguided decision was not endorsed or supported in any way by the campus leadership, the University of California, or the broader student body,"according to the statement. "The views of a handful of students passing a resolution do not represent the opinions of the nearly 30,000 students on this campus and have no influence on the policies and practices of the university. The American flag is still proudly flying throughout our campus and will continue to do so."

The resolution will now head back to the legislative council, which would have to pass the measure with a two-thirds majority to override the veto.

Writing on UC Irvine's Associated Students Facebook page, President Reza Zomorrodian said he opposed the resolution.

"Though I understand the authors' intent and supporters' intent," he wrote, "I disagree with the solution council has come to."

I would laugh if they actually overrode the veto but I have a feeling it's not going to receive a single vote now.

The system works!

[JackWhisper]

On Saturday, UC Irvine issued a statement saying the student government vote was "misguided."

Understatement of the fucking millennium.

[Thondalar]

Yes, because freedom to make their own decisions about what is displayed in their common areas must be punished. I thought this was murica land of the free? This thread is rife with hypocrisy.

Edit: whatever happened to, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it?" It exists as an axiom only today.

It's not a "common area", its school property. They're free to fly or not fly whatever flags they want at home.

I think your quote is from a French man, or rather, an English woman writing about a French man, but whatever...it still holds true. Unfortunately we're not discussing speech, we're discussing actions.



edit: an not and.

[Thondalar]

“It is these very symbols that represent our constitutional rights… and our ability to openly debate all ranges of issues and pay tribute to how those liberties were attained.”


Amen.

[Luntz]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3QYcBSCYAACo-v.jpg

[Tgo01]

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3QYcBSCYAACo-v.jpg

You lost, Luntz. It's time to


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU

[Luntz]

the amount of butthurtedness in this rep is hilarious to me, u mad bro


sucks to be one of the pc's most disliked people doesn't it? Maybe you'll learn to keep your mouth shut one day. doubt it. you'll end up dead. deservedly.

[waywardgs]

the amount of butthurtedness in this rep is hilarious to me, u mad bro

That's a little low even by PC standards.

[Luntz]

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=216621&d=1410443629

[Thondalar]

That's a little low even by PC standards.

It's Luntz, we're used to it. He has yet to offer anything to any conversation other than random idiocy about "white tears" or similar hate speech. The hypocrisy is strong with that one.

[Wrathbringer]

That's a little low even by PC standards.

Probably lord orbshart.

[Ysamine]

I haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet, but my initial thought is lets enforce this. I just hope the government decides to drop every cent of funding that they give the school, because clearly they don't wan't a government presence there. I think that would be a fair solution for everyone.

[Ker_Thwap]

I haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet, but my initial thought is lets enforce this. I just hope the government decides to drop every cent of funding that they give the school, because clearly they don't wan't a government presence there. I think that would be a fair solution for everyone.

Yeah, you probably should have finished reading the thread. There's an update, another group of students overruled them.

- First group of students wanted diverse students to feel comfortable, and removed all flags, so as not to offend tender sensibilities.
- Second group said, "Aww honey, you meant well, but that's not a real life solution to dealing with diversity."

There was really nothing anti US government going on. It seems just a little silly to withdraw funding from an entire University because a tiny fraction of their student body had a bad plan to remove all flags and hand out free hugs.

[Ardwen]

No but they could remove all government support from the fools that started this idiocy, let them pay the FULL cost from their education, which is in actuality much higher then whatever their tuiition may happen to be

[Ker_Thwap]

No but they could remove all government support from the fools that started this idiocy, let them pay the FULL cost from their education, which is in actuality much higher then whatever their tuiition may happen to be

Knock knock
Who's there
Sally Mae; Special Agent Smith. I'm here to revoke your college funding citizen.

[Wrathbringer]

Yeah, you probably should have finished reading the thread. There's an update, another group of students overruled them.

- First group of students wanted diverse students to feel comfortable, and removed all flags, so as not to offend tender sensibilities.
- Second group said, "Aww honey, you meant well, but that's not a real life solution to dealing with diversity."

There was really nothing anti US government going on. It seems just a little silly to withdraw funding from an entire University because a tiny fraction of their student body had a bad plan to remove all flags and hand out free hugs.

Faux News needed a story so they spun one.

[Wrathbringer]

No but they could remove all government support from the fools that started this idiocy, let them pay the FULL cost from their education, which is in actuality much higher then whatever their tuiition may happen to be

Stick to text item hoarding. This rational intelligent discussion thing isn't your strong suit, and that's okay.

[Ker_Thwap]

Faux News needed a story so they spun one.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention. It's a No spin zone.® You can't possibly think they'd lie about that.

[Parkbandit]

Stick to text item hoarding. This rational intelligent discussion thing isn't your strong suit, and that's okay.

Irony at it's finest.

ETA: Just so I don't confuse the shit out of you, I was referring to the intelligent discussion part, not the item hoarding part.

[Latrinsorm]

you'll end up dead....doesn't everyone?
It is UC Berkley, they would never lower themselves to admit one of those warmongering veterans that guarantee their way of life.It's UC Irvine, hundreds of miles away from UC Berkeley. Also, the ROTC has had a presence at UC Berkeley since 1870 (http://army.berkeley.edu/) and at UC Irvine since 2011 (http://rotc.uci.edu/alumni/history.html). That you as a veteran dislike these colleges does not mean they dislike you.

[ClydeR]

We go forward, not backwards. If you ever display an American Flag somewhere, you should be required to continue the practice as long as the building stands.