Obama said something I argee with...

[Candor]

(HuffPost) President Barack Obama urged American parents to get their children fully vaccinated on Sunday, amid growing concerns over an outbreak of measles, a highly contagious airborne disease, in the western United States.

----------------------

Obama and I actually agree on this issue. I can no longer say I disagree with Obama on pretty much everything. Oh well.

[Gelston]

(HuffPost) President Barack Obama urged American parents to get their children fully vaccinated on Sunday, amid growing concerns over an outbreak of measles, a highly contagious airborne disease, in the western United States.

----------------------

Obama and I actually agree on this issue. I can no longer say I disagree with Obama on pretty much everything. Oh well.

Uh, yes you can. That means you don't disagree with him on everything, just well... pretty much everything. If you disagreed with him on everything you wouldn't have the "pretty much" part there.

[Taernath]

4 more years! 4 more years!

[Gelston]

4 more years! 4 more years!
Let's proclaim him dictator for life and award him the title of first among equals.

[Taernath]

Let's proclaim him dictator for life and award him the title of first among equals.

The tie is cast.

http://adorassociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/ModernDayMogul24.jpg

[Warriorbird]

http://whatzhotandnot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/obama-air-horn-550x352.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/e4sz8.jpg

[Methais]

Obama cured the planet of all disease!

[Warriorbird]

Obama cured the planet of all disease!

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1q4xccV801qfshk8o1_400.jpg

[Methais]

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1q4xccV801qfshk8o1_400.jpg

http://i.vimeocdn.com/video/474758738_640.jpg

[Warriorbird]

Rand Paul... the public health candidate.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000351424

[Candor]

In the 2012 remake of Total Recall, which takes place around 100 years in the future, there are monetary bills with Obama's image on them.

I hope I don't live to see that...

[JackWhisper]

Are there really? LOL I gotta google that.

[JackWhisper]

I saw it! Laughing hard.

[Parkbandit]

Rand Paul... the public health candidate.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000351424

I don't see an issue with what he said. What was your issue(s) with it?

[Warriorbird]

I don't see an issue with what he said. What was your issue(s) with it?

Would you feel the same way about "voluntary" non vaccinators if you still worked at Hilton? Do you think doctors should be giving out scientifically disproved information?

[JackWhisper]

Would you feel the same way about "voluntary" non vaccinators if you still worked at Hilton? Do you think doctors should be giving out scientifically disproved information?

The problem I have with all this crap is one simple fact. Times change.

50 years ago, science was trial and error. People said shit wasn't dangerous when it was, purely because they weren't injured by it right then. Cigarettes/Tabacco/WhatHaveYou being a HUGE example of that sort of idiocy.

Nowadays, we have competence, information, and execution at our fingertips. Not knowing what you're talking about, when you're a doctor, should be something akin to a crime.

[Jarvan]

The problem I have with all this crap is one simple fact. Times change.

50 years ago, science was trial and error. People said shit wasn't dangerous when it was, purely because they weren't injured by it right then. Cigarettes/Tabacco/WhatHaveYou being a HUGE example of that sort of idiocy.

Nowadays, we have competence, information, and execution at our fingertips. Not knowing what you're talking about, when you're a doctor, should be something akin to a crime.

Which is why it seems like most Dr's never know what the fuck is actually wrong with anyone. 50 years ago, if you had chest pains, the Dr treated you for chest pains, now they run 87 tests then tell you they are not sure what is wrong, but take some of this for the pains.

[JackWhisper]

Which is why it seems like most Dr's never know what the fuck is actually wrong with anyone. 50 years ago, if you had chest pains, the Dr treated you for chest pains, now they run 87 tests then tell you they are not sure what is wrong, but take some of this for the pains.

That actually makes me laugh Jarvan.

When I was 22, I was diagnosed with... something. Seven doctors later, nobody could tell me what it was. I went to hospitals and doctors all around Northern California. All they knew is that it was eating me from the inside. Effects of said illness were bloody vomit, dry heaving up yellow bile, and constant chest pains that one doctor referred to as labor without an epidural. Felt something like being hit in the sternum with a nine iron, about every 8 seconds, for sometimes 10-15 minutes, sometimes hours. Attacks happened as rarely as once every week, to an absolutely hellish 72 hours just prior to a hospital visit where I had 13 attacks and never left the bathroom. Had a pillow and a blanket on the bathroom rug for two and a half days. Then went to the ER.

Fast forward through three days of them doing tests on me pre-attack, mid-attack, and post-attack. Nobody knew what was wrong. Until one very nice Dr. Vidovsky came in and sat with me. He had no clue what was wrong with me, but he said he could quell it. I agreed. We sat and talked about it. I asked why it wasn't GERDS, which was the original assumed culprit and was disproven several times. He had no answer for me. An entire hospital of doctors and nobody could say WHAT was wrong.

So I got the operation. Needless to say, my singing voice, which up until then I had been proud of, was toast. My throat, my esophagus, and my stomach, had been so repeatedly burned, scarred and torn apart by acid and bile that it was not fixable. And the doctor left me with one warning. It would take approximately 8-10 years and they'd be able to take the sutures/staples/whatever out of my body, as my body would have healed. But if I tore it, one of three things would happen. I would tear the entire thing away, bile would run into my bloodstream, and I'd be dead in eight hours or less. Wouldn't even know why. If it undid itself, I would start having attacks again, in a serious way, and they'd have to go back in. The third thing was that I could tear it early on, by rigorous activity, repeated pressure, or something as simple as an extremely rough sneeze or cough, and I would have to get to the hospital immediately before my body damaged itself too badly.

All that and, to this day, no one, not even the doctor who helped in the end, knows what was wrong with me. I get to go back next year and they're going to take the stuff out. Looking forward to not being dead.

And that's my story. Sucks, but life is life. Doctors should know more.

[Ker_Thwap]

Which is why it seems like most Dr's never know what the fuck is actually wrong with anyone. 50 years ago, if you had chest pains, the Dr treated you for chest pains, now they run 87 tests then tell you they are not sure what is wrong, but take some of this for the pains.

That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works.

[JackWhisper]

That's not how it works, that's not how any of this works.

I feel like a MEME should be inserted with that quote.

[Thondalar]

Would you feel the same way about "voluntary" non vaccinators if you still worked at Hilton?

What? He said people should have a choice about whether or not they let someone else inject something into their body. Are you arguing for forced vaccinations?



Do you think doctors should be giving out scientifically disproved information?

He said vaccines were great, and that they were one of the greatest medical advancements of all time, and that we should do more to educate the public on how good they are...

I really think sometimes you just hear what you want to when someone you don't like is saying something.

[Jarvan]

That actually makes me laugh Jarvan.

When I was 22, I was diagnosed with... something. Seven doctors later, nobody could tell me what it was. I went to hospitals and doctors all around Northern California. All they knew is that it was eating me from the inside. Effects of said illness were bloody vomit, dry heaving up yellow bile, and constant chest pains that one doctor referred to as labor without an epidural. Felt something like being hit in the sternum with a nine iron, about every 8 seconds, for sometimes 10-15 minutes, sometimes hours. Attacks happened as rarely as once every week, to an absolutely hellish 72 hours just prior to a hospital visit where I had 13 attacks and never left the bathroom. Had a pillow and a blanket on the bathroom rug for two and a half days. Then went to the ER.

Fast forward through three days of them doing tests on me pre-attack, mid-attack, and post-attack. Nobody knew what was wrong. Until one very nice Dr. Vidovsky came in and sat with me. He had no clue what was wrong with me, but he said he could quell it. I agreed. We sat and talked about it. I asked why it wasn't GERDS, which was the original assumed culprit and was disproven several times. He had no answer for me. An entire hospital of doctors and nobody could say WHAT was wrong.

So I got the operation. Needless to say, my singing voice, which up until then I had been proud of, was toast. My throat, my esophagus, and my stomach, had been so repeatedly burned, scarred and torn apart by acid and bile that it was not fixable. And the doctor left me with one warning. It would take approximately 8-10 years and they'd be able to take the sutures/staples/whatever out of my body, as my body would have healed. But if I tore it, one of three things would happen. I would tear the entire thing away, bile would run into my bloodstream, and I'd be dead in eight hours or less. Wouldn't even know why. If it undid itself, I would start having attacks again, in a serious way, and they'd have to go back in. The third thing was that I could tear it early on, by rigorous activity, repeated pressure, or something as simple as an extremely rough sneeze or cough, and I would have to get to the hospital immediately before my body damaged itself too badly.

All that and, to this day, no one, not even the doctor who helped in the end, knows what was wrong with me. I get to go back next year and they're going to take the stuff out. Looking forward to not being dead.

And that's my story. Sucks, but life is life. Doctors should know more.

Well.. my occurrence is nothing like that. When I was 19, I was at work (in a rehab hospital oddly enough), and I suddenly felt very lethargic. I couldn't move any of my muscles, or talk. I was like that for 20 minutes until a co-worker found me and got my mom (she also worked there). They pulled me out of the chair and took me to a nurse, who checked my vitals. My heart rate was 42, and my blood pressure was very low. My body temp was 86.5. They took me for a short walk, then to my primary care dr. by the time I saw him, my heart rate was at my normal of 52, and my temp was back up to my normal of 96 or so. (what can I say, I am weird) He asked me what drugs I had taken, since I never have taken any illegal, or abused prescription drugs, I said none. He said ok.. drew some blood, and said the blood test will tell him what drug I was on.

He said he ran 32 diff tests on my blood when I went back, and asked for more blood. Because all the tests were "inconclusive". (meaning negative for drugs) I told him i wouldn't pay for more tests, since he should have been checking for non drug stuff in the first place. He did another blood test. never found anything wrong with me. Did other tests. Zero answers. it happened 10 more times in my early 20's. One time my heart rate must have dipped even lower, cause I had blacked out for like 20 min.

Still no idea what happened to me, doesn't happen as much anymore. 1 time in the last decade. Guess old age has it's advantages.

[JackWhisper]

Jarvan. Me and you need to found a 'Nobody knows what the fuck is wrong with me' foundation.

Kickstarter!

[Archigeek]

I'm cool with requiring kids to be vaccinated with things like the MMR vaccine. Unless there's a valid health reason for not doing so. Valid health reasons would be things like a compromised immune system, or a need to take drugs that depress the immune system due to autoimmune disorder like MS, not "OMG, vaccines cause autism!"

[Parkbandit]

Would you feel the same way about "voluntary" non vaccinators if you still worked at Hilton?

Yes. Isn't that how we've always handled vaccinations?


Do you think doctors should be giving out scientifically disproved information?

I'm not a big believer in government forceful vaccinations, if that is what you are saying.

[Back]

Vaccines have always been a choice. If a public school requires it you have the choice to home school.

These politicians taking advantage of ignorant vaccine deniers is disgusting.

[JackWhisper]

I can't hear you over the glitter of your NEOPET!

[Ker_Thwap]

I feel like a MEME should be inserted with that quote.

Text based is where it's at.

[Parkbandit]

What? He said people should have a choice about whether or not they let someone else inject something into their body. Are you arguing for forced vaccinations?

He said vaccines were great, and that they were one of the greatest medical advancements of all time, and that we should do more to educate the public on how good they are...

I really think sometimes you just hear what you want to when someone you don't like is saying something.

It has nothing to do with what is actually said.. it's who is saying it and what letter is following the name.

[Parkbandit]

Vaccines have always been a choice. If a public school requires it you have the choice to home school.

These politicians taking advantage of ignorant vaccine deniers is disgusting.

I agree:

"Committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines." - Hillary Clinton 2008

[JackWhisper]

Vaccines are environmental?

OH SHIT! MY OAK TREE IS CAUSING AUTISM IN MY NEIGHBOR'S KID!

[Warriorbird]

What? He said people should have a choice about whether or not they let someone else inject something into their body. Are you arguing for forced vaccinations?

He said vaccines were great, and that they were one of the greatest medical advancements of all time, and that we should do more to educate the public on how good they are...

I really think sometimes you just hear what you want to when someone you don't like is saying something.

Public health is public health. These idiots caused the measles epidemic.

You carefully neglected Paul's idiocy to try to make him look better with your other section


I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking normal children who wound up with profound mental disorders after vaccines

About people sometimes hearing what they want...

[AnticorRifling]

I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up dead because they didn't get vaccines.


This is a fun game Rand Paul.

[Candor]

I have heard of many tragic cases of walking, talking, normal children who wound up dead because they didn't get vaccines.


This is a fun game Rand Paul.

I suppose if you're a gambler this is an interesting twist on Russian Roulette.

The problem is that you make other people play the game. There should be significant legal consequences if someone else becomes seriously ill or dies. Courts have prosecuted and imprisoned parents who believed that healing must come only from God when their child died due to a curable illness because medical attention was never sought. Legally I don't see how this situation is any different (barring the rare case when a vaccine is medically dangerous to someone).

[waywardgs]

Public health is public health. These idiots caused the measles epidemic.

You carefully neglected Paul's idiocy to try to make him look better with your other section



About people sometimes hearing what they want...

Rand Paul said that yesterday, no less. You didn't have to dig to far back to grab that quote. The paper he's referring to was disproven over a decade ago, the author had his license yanked, and people still trot it out. It's kind of amazing.

[Candor]

Rand Paul said that yesterday, no less. You didn't have to dig to far back to grab that quote. The paper he's referring to was disproven over a decade ago, the author had his license yanked, and people still trot it out. It's kind of amazing.

What's scary is that Rand Paul is an ophthalmologist. He practiced for over 15 years. I don't know if his medical license is currently active (probably not, given his attention to other activities the past few years).

[waywardgs]

I suppose if you're a gambler this is an interesting twist on Russian Roulette.

The problem is that you make other people play the game. There should be significant legal consequences if someone else becomes seriously ill or dies. Courts have prosecuted and imprisoned parents who believed that healing must come only from God when their child died due to a curable illness because medical attention was never sought. Legally I don't see how this situation is any different (barring the rare case when a vaccine is medically dangerous to someone).

Yep. In the same sense that it's illegal to drive 120mph on the highway- it puts others at risk. We make laws that restrict freedoms all the time for the common good. The fact that measles was considered eradicated from the U.S. in 2000, and now we're seeing outbreaks from anti-vaxxer bullshit, is reason enough to do something about it.

[caelric]

What's scary is that Rand Paul is an ophthalmologist. He practiced for over 15 years. I don't know if his medical license is currently active (probably not, given his attention to other activities the past few years).

Unfortunately, there are plenty of doctors out there who either believe that vaccines are bad, or are willing to support people who are anti-vaxxers.

I'm relatively libertarian, and lean right on most issues, and I still think the anti-vaxxers are whack jobs, and should be legally (criminally and civilly) liable for the damage they cause to their own children, and more importantly, the harm they cause to others by reducing the herd immunity.

[JackWhisper]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of doctors out there who either believe that vaccines are bad, or are willing to support people who are anti-vaxxers.

I'm relatively libertarian, and lean right on most issues, and I still think the anti-vaxxers are whack jobs, and should be legally (criminally and civilly) liable for the damage they cause to their own children, and more importantly, the harm they cause to others by reducing the herd immunity.

Obviously, "Do no harm" didn't mean what they thought it did.

[waywardgs]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of doctors out there who either believe that vaccines are bad, or are willing to support people who are anti-vaxxers.

I'm relatively libertarian, and lean right on most issues, and I still think the anti-vaxxers are whack jobs, and should be legally (criminally and civilly) liable for the damage they cause to their own children, and more importantly, the harm they cause to others by reducing the herd immunity.

That's pretty rare. The vast majority of the medical community advises parents vaccinate; in most cases anti-vaxxers are going against the recomendations of their doctors.

[JackWhisper]

School regulations across the country require children be vaccinated, or you cannot send your child to school.

Obviously the school knows more than the doctors who think vaccinations are bad.

That's why shot records are required to be presented and kept up to date when registering your child for school these days.

[caelric]

School regulations across the country require children be vaccinated, or you cannot send your child to school.

Obviously the school knows more than the doctors who think vaccinations are bad.

That's why shot records are required to be presented and kept up to date when registering your child for school these days.

Except for those with documented exemptions. Depending on the state (California, I'm talking 'bout you), exemptions are pretty easy to come by.

[JackWhisper]

I live in California. In the state capital. It's not easy to get an exemption.

You have to get a PBE Form, and get a medically licensed physician to sign it, as well as the parent(s)/guardian(s). But that in no way is a guarantee you will get it cleared.

Not to mention that, even if you *DO* get it cleared through and through, any outbreak or potential outbreak, the instant it is reported, your child is then yanked from school and not allowed back in until it is deemed as not a threat to your child. Regardless of their studies. Because when you go through these motions, the school is not held liable for it.

[caelric]

I think any personal belief or religious exemptions are too easy.

[JackWhisper]

On that thought process, considering the lack of follow-through on the part of the government to ascertain whether you're shamming or not, I'd tend to agree. Doctors, however, have to at least fully apprise parents of the dangers. Schools don't care though. They'll kick your kid out so you can't try to sue them cuz you're an idiot. And rightly so.

[Androidpk]

http://i.imgur.com/O3swTLR.jpg

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I don't care if kids get vaccinated or not. If a whole bunch die of measles because their parents are dumb, I would say it's a form of natural selection and it'd be nice if the retarded genes died out.

[Candor]

Historically I don't get sick that much. But after my son started elementary school, I started battling colds and other infections for years - all of which I apparently acquired from my son. Kids share diseases like crazy.

The idea of unvaccinated kids in a public school would make a great plot for a production that would make a Freddy Krueger movie look like Bambi ("The Pox" might be a good title, for example).

But theatrics aside, we as a society need to have less patience on this issue. Lives are at stake.

[Thondalar]

I'm cool with requiring kids to be vaccinated with things like the MMR vaccine. Unless there's a valid health reason for not doing so. Valid health reasons would be things like a compromised immune system, or a need to take drugs that depress the immune system due to autoimmune disorder like MS, not "OMG, vaccines cause autism!"

Yeah, I'm not cool with requiring anyone to do anything, especially when it comes to healthcare.

[Tisket]

Well.. my occurrence is nothing like that. When I was 19, I was at work (in a rehab hospital oddly enough), and I suddenly felt very lethargic. I couldn't move any of my muscles, or talk. I was like that for 20 minutes until a co-worker found me and got my mom (she also worked there). They pulled me out of the chair and took me to a nurse, who checked my vitals. My heart rate was 42, and my blood pressure was very low. My body temp was 86.5. They took me for a short walk, then to my primary care dr. by the time I saw him, my heart rate was at my normal of 52, and my temp was back up to my normal of 96 or so. (what can I say, I am weird) He asked me what drugs I had taken, since I never have taken any illegal, or abused prescription drugs, I said none. He said ok.. drew some blood, and said the blood test will tell him what drug I was on.

He said he ran 32 diff tests on my blood when I went back, and asked for more blood. Because all the tests were "inconclusive". (meaning negative for drugs) I told him i wouldn't pay for more tests, since he should have been checking for non drug stuff in the first place. He did another blood test. never found anything wrong with me. Did other tests. Zero answers. it happened 10 more times in my early 20's. One time my heart rate must have dipped even lower, cause I had blacked out for like 20 min.

Still no idea what happened to me, doesn't happen as much anymore. 1 time in the last decade. Guess old age has it's advantages.

You shouldn't have a drivers license. People who have seizures of any kind shouldn't be driving.

[waywardgs]

Yeah, I'm not cool with requiring anyone to do anything, especially when it comes to healthcare.

Seatbelts? Speed limits? Drunk driving? All public health issues. Should we toss out those rules as well because FREEEEEEDDDOOOMMMM!!!!!!?

[Methais]

Seatbelts? Speed limits? Drunk driving? All public health issues. Should we toss out those rules as well because FREEEEEEDDDOOOMMMM!!!!!!?

I agree, we should require drunk driving.

[waywardgs]

I agree, we should require drunk driving.

Or just not require people to be sober.

[Gelston]

I agree, we should require drunk driving.

The utter chaos that the streets would become would be pretty interesting.

[Tenlaar]

On one hand, I don't like the idea of forcing medical decisions on people.

On the other hand, when my girlfriend was born in Hungary she did not receive some vaccine that she should have. As a result she got very sick as a child and had to have a kidney removed when she was 7. She now has to live with the consequences of a decision that she did not make.

So, what is the right answer? I don't know.

[Candor]

On one hand, I don't like the idea of forcing medical decisions on people.

On the other hand, when my girlfriend was born in Hungary she did not receive some vaccine that she should have. As a result she got very sick as a child and had to have a kidney removed when she was 7. She now has to live with the consequences of a decision that she did not make.

So, what is the right answer? I don't know.

Laws force morals on people - that is their purpose. The question is what what (and whose) morality you are going to enforce.

I have no problems forcing parents to seek medical treatment for their sick children. None. Zip. Zero. And that includes vaccinations.

[Tgo01]

Are you arguing for forced vaccinations?

I only think vaccinations should be forced if the person has any close contact with another human being. A family could always choose to live in the middle of nowhere and their neighbors are all woodchucks or something. Choices!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I only think vaccinations should be forced if the person has any close contact with another human being. A family could always choose to live in the middle of nowhere and their neighbors are all woodchucks or something. Choices!

Only if you can shoot them if they come near the vaccinated world...

[Tisket]

I'm a strong defender and believer in personal rights however, this isn't a personal liberty issue. Vaccinations for contagious diseases should be mandated and the consequences for failure to do so, dire. There is nothing wrong (and much to admire) in a parent who is concerned about what is injected into their children but a little simple research and/or conversation with your child's pediatrician should be the end of any resistance to vaccinations.

[Latrinsorm]

In the 2012 remake of Total Recall, which takes place around 100 years in the future, there are monetary bills with Obama's image on them.

I hope I don't live to see that...It's not like Jefferson or Grant were great Presidents.
Courts have prosecuted and imprisoned parents who believed that healing must come only from God when their child died due to a curable illness because medical attention was never sought.Are you sure? I've always heard it the other way, that Christian Scientists (or whatever) CAN'T be compelled to seek medical attention for their children, or punished for not doing so. I guess it depends on the state.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm a strong defender and believer in personal rights however, this isn't a personal liberty issue. Vaccinations for contagious diseases should be mandated and the consequences for failure to do so, dire. There is nothing wrong (and much to admire) in a parent who is concerned about what is injected into their children but a little simple research and/or conversation with your child's pediatrician should be the end of any resistance to vaccinations.

What if the vaccination was for a mutant gene that could horribly alter a child's physical appearance and abilities. Do we force it on them?

[Thondalar]

Seatbelts? Speed limits? Drunk driving? All public health issues. Should we toss out those rules as well because FREEEEEEDDDOOOMMMM!!!!!!?

Yes.

[Taernath]

What if the vaccination was for a mutant gene that could horribly alter a child's physical appearance and abilities. Do we force it on them?

What if unicorns were real?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

What if unicorns were real?

Measles does all of that.

[Tenlaar]

What if the vaccination was for a mutant gene that could horribly alter a child's physical appearance and abilities. Do we force it on them?

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/10/03/t1larg.xmen.jpg

[caelric]

It's not like Jefferson or Grant were great Presidents..

Side note: we will likely see currency with Obama's picture on it in our lifetime. Well, at least my lifetime, which has hopefully 40+ years to go. Whether you like him or not (and I don't, and disagree with most of his policies), he is the first black president, which is historically noteworthy for the United States.

As for forced vaccination: yes, I think we should. Or at least allow zero exemptions for beliefs or religious exemptions.

[waywardgs]

Yes.

So a drunk driver smashes his car and kills your wife and kids. You're going to defend his freedom to drink and drive? That's… insane.

[caelric]

Seatbelts? Speed limits? Drunk driving? All public health issues. Should we toss out those rules as well because FREEEEEEDDDOOOMMMM!!!!!!?


Yes.

That's why I cringe to identify myself as libertarian. There are a lot of libertarian values that I agree with, but there are too many folks who take it to the extreme.

[Tgo01]

Whether you like him or not (and I don't, and disagree with most of his policies), he is the first black president, which is historically noteworthy for the United States.

Isn't that racist? No, I'm actually being serious. Putting Obama on our money solely because he's the first black president?

When will we learn, America?!

[Taernath]

So a drunk driver smashes his car and kills your wife and kids. You're going to defend his freedom to drink and drive? That's… insane.

He's pulling a Dukakis.

[Candor]

It's not like Jefferson or Grant were great Presidents.

It's a weak argument, but how many $2 and $50 bills are in your pocket right now? Few people pay much attention to these bills.

In any case, aren't we talking about forced vaccinations (yeah I know, I started this subtopic...)?

[Gelston]

Driving is a privilege, not a right. I don't think being forced to not drive drunk, wear seat belts, have insurance, etc, is equal to forced vaccinations.

[Tgo01]

He's pulling a Dukakis.

He's riding around in a tank? :/

[Candor]

He's riding around in a tank? :/

I admit it, that made me laugh. Good one.

[Taernath]

He's riding around in a tank? :/

You don't remember his comments on the death penalty?

[waywardgs]

Driving is a privilege, not a right. I don't think being forced to not drive drunk, wear seat belts, have insurance, etc, is equal to forced vaccinations.

The issue is that your rights end where mine begin. And vice versus. You don't have the right to endanger or take away my life, through force, or negligence, or stupidity. That's not only America, it's most of modern society. What Thondalar is proposing- and he may be trolling- is not libertarianism, it's anarchy- a complete breakdown of society. Which is fine for mad max, but doesn't work for very long.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2011/images/10/03/t1larg.xmen.jpg

ZOMG I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT. WE COULD BE TALKING ABOUT X-MEN AND NOT THE MEASLES!

[Tgo01]

You don't remember his comments on the death penalty?

I was like 4 or something when he ran :(

[Thondalar]

So a drunk driver smashes his car and kills your wife and kids. You're going to defend his freedom to drink and drive? That's… insane.

He would be arrested for causing the death of my wife and kids. I find the manner in which he did so superfluous.

[Gelston]

He would be arrested for causing the death of my wife and kids. I find the manner in which he did so superfluous.

Even though it wouldn't have happened had he been sober. Prevention is more important than punishment, in my opinion.

[Thondalar]

The issue is that your rights end where mine begin. And vice versus. You don't have the right to endanger or take away my life, through force, or negligence, or stupidity. That's not only America, it's most of modern society. What Thondalar is proposing- and he may be trolling- is not libertarianism...

I don't have the right to take your life, but we do things that endanger each other all the time. And I never troll. Except sometimes when I'm really drunk and don't realize I'm trolling. This is not one of those times.


... it's anarchy- a complete breakdown of society. Which is fine for mad max, but doesn't work for very long.

"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners." -Edward Abbey

“Anarchists did not try to carry out genocide against the Armenians in Turkey; they did not deliberately starve millions of Ukrainians; they did not create a system of death camps to kill Jews, gypsies, and Slavs in Europe; they did not fire-bomb scores of large German and Japanese cities and drop nuclear bombs on two of them; they did not carry out a ‘Great Leap Forward’ that killed scores of millions of Chinese; they did not attempt to kill everybody with any appreciable education in Cambodia; they did not launch one aggressive war after another; they did not implement trade sanctions that killed perhaps 500,000 Iraqi children.

In debates between anarchists and statists, the burden of proof clearly should rest on those who place their trust in the state. Anarchy’s mayhem is wholly conjectural; the state’s mayhem is undeniably, factually horrendous.” -Robert Higgs

[Thondalar]

Even though it wouldn't have happened had he been sober. Prevention is more important than punishment, in my opinion.

Laws don't exist to prevent crime, they exist to define the infraction and assign a punishment if you get caught doing it. Not a single crime has been prevented by making it a crime.

[Gelston]

Laws don't exist to prevent crime, they exist to define the infraction and assign a punishment if you get caught doing it. Not a single crime has been prevented by making it a crime.

Except that making it illegal to drink and drive cuts down on drinking and driving and therefor there are less accidents due to drunk drivers.

[Thondalar]

Except that making it illegal to drink and drive cuts down on drinking and driving and therefor there are less accidents due to drunk drivers.

Proof?

[caelric]

Even though it wouldn't have happened had he been sober. Prevention is more important than punishment, in my opinion.

ounce of prevention, pound of cure, or some shit like that.

[Candor]

Proof?

You actually need proof? You don't accept that laws provide a deterrent to certain behaviors? Seriously?

[Gelston]

Proof?

Let common sense be your guide.

[Thondalar]

You actually need proof? You don't accept that laws provide a deterrent to certain behaviors? Seriously?

Yes, seriously. I find that education and social pressure are much more likely to be "a deterrent to certain behaviors". The laws are superfluous.

[Thondalar]

Let common sense be your guide.

Common sense tells me that people break laws every day.

[Gelston]

Common sense tells me that people break laws every day.

And even more don't.

Education on the penalties of a DUI seems to be pretty damn good at keeping tons of drunk people from driving... According to Uber and Cab companies.

[waywardgs]

Yes, seriously. I find that education and social pressure are much more likely to be "a deterrent to certain behaviors". The laws are superfluous.

But laws.... laws are a form of social pressure...

[waywardgs]

I don't have the right to take your life, but we do things that endanger each other all the time. And I never troll. Except sometimes when I'm really drunk and don't realize I'm trolling. This is not one of those times.



"Anarchism is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners." -Edward Abbey

“Anarchists did not try to carry out genocide against the Armenians in Turkey; they did not deliberately starve millions of Ukrainians; they did not create a system of death camps to kill Jews, gypsies, and Slavs in Europe; they did not fire-bomb scores of large German and Japanese cities and drop nuclear bombs on two of them; they did not carry out a ‘Great Leap Forward’ that killed scores of millions of Chinese; they did not attempt to kill everybody with any appreciable education in Cambodia; they did not launch one aggressive war after another; they did not implement trade sanctions that killed perhaps 500,000 Iraqi children.

In debates between anarchists and statists, the burden of proof clearly should rest on those who place their trust in the state. Anarchy’s mayhem is wholly conjectural; the state’s mayhem is undeniably, factually horrendous.” -Robert Higgs


Er... go hang out in somalia.

[Thondalar]

Er... go hang out in somalia.

Somali Anarchy is more orderly than Somali government (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880)



Sorry, link fixed.

[Jarvan]

School regulations across the country require children be vaccinated, or you cannot send your child to school.

Obviously the school knows more than the doctors who think vaccinations are bad.

That's why shot records are required to be presented and kept up to date when registering your child for school these days.

Except if you are an Illegal Immigrant... I mean Undocumented worker's kid.

Then they don't care if you had them or not.

[waywardgs]

Somali Anarchy is more orderly than Somali government (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880)



Sorry, link fixed.

Compare Somali's "anarchy" to a country with a government that isn't dysfunctional.

[Warriorbird]

Somali Anarchy is more orderly than Somali government (http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1880)



Sorry, link fixed.

You do know that subsequent to that article being published (2006) everything he talks about disintegrated and the country imploded into radical groups for like 5-6 years, right? Then they got an actual government.

[Candor]

Yes, seriously. I find that education and social pressure are much more likely to be "a deterrent to certain behaviors". The laws are superfluous.

This planet is called "Earth". It is the third planet in it's solar system and is approximately 93M miles from the nearest star, which it orbits. The natives call this galaxy the "Milky Way". The primary intelligent species on Earth is called "human".

Clearly you got lost somewhere and think you are on some other planetary body with another intelligent species. On this planet, human behavior determines psychological traits. One such trait is that laws usually lower the occurrences of the actions being prohibited. Please readjust your thinking to conform to the local environment. Thank you.

[Latrinsorm]

It's a weak argument, but how many $2 and $50 bills are in your pocket right now? Few people pay much attention to these bills.Sure, but what denomination is Obama going to be on? $1 to $100 bills are all spoken for, coins above quarters have never taken off, he'll probably end up on the $200 if anything.
He would be arrested for causing the death of my wife and kids. I find the manner in which he did so superfluous.A policeman could have pulled him over before he caused that death if drunk driving was illegal.
Proof?Drunk driving stats only go back to 1982 (http://www.alcoholalert.com/drunk-driving-statistics.html), the highest absolute and obviously per capita year on record, but serious decline didn't begin until 1989 and lasted until 1997, where it stagnated until serious decline again from 2003-present. (Stats at end.)

At some point in the 80s Congress passed a law demanding that states reduce their limits from .15 to .10 BAC. I can't find any direct citations or (more importantly) when the states obeyed this demand, but I did find this appropriations bill that passed in 1982 (https://www.congress.gov/bill/97th-congress/house-bill/6170). Unfortunately, full text of bills only goes back to 1993 so we're a bit in the dark here. All we can say for sure is at some point in the 80s the states lowered their BAC limits.

In 2000 (http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/drowsy_driving1/New-fact-sheet03/Point08BAC.pdf) the Congress passed a law demanding that states set their limits to .08 BAC. The last state did so in 2004 (http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/14/us/ntsb-blood-alcohol/), and it's not specified which one but it's probably Alabama.

1982(?) law -> gradual compliance -> 1989 decline
2000 law -> gradual compliance -> 2003 decline

There's your proof. I eagerly await your rationalization for why none of that matters and how (by astonishing coincidence) you still won't have to do any research or work for you to be proven right. :)

.

Alcohol related fatalities per million population, from 1982 to 2011:


112.98
105.37
105.00
97.37
104.18
99.44
97.48
90.85
90.49
79.69
71.30
68.90
65.78
66.59
65.89
61.29
60.44
59.39
61.60
61.06
60.93
58.64
57.78
57.14
53.05
51.08
45.53
41.54
33.07
31.70

[Tisket]

What if the vaccination was for a mutant gene that could horribly alter a child's physical appearance and abilities. Do we force it on them?

I don't understand what you are getting at here. You think vaccines alter a child's physical appearance? I don't even know what to say to that.

Oh wait, yes I do: ridiculous.

[JackWhisper]

I only think vaccinations should be forced if the person has any close contact with another human being. A family could always choose to live in the middle of nowhere and their neighbors are all woodchucks or something. Choices!

Snap. Choices?! Consequences?!!?!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dWjKkF0Zi4

[Furryrat]

Wait, we can vaccinate against bad genes now? Maybe I will decide to procreate after all...

[JackWhisper]

Except if you are an Illegal Immigrant... I mean Undocumented worker's kid.

Then they don't care if you had them or not.


I actually asked my mother about this today. She works in the state's Child Welfare Division.. or WTFever it's called. 30 diff names for the same shit. They kick out illegal kids as well when there's an outbreak. There are no exceptions because if they leave a child in the school, in potential danger, they are liable and can be sued.

Because reasons.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I don't understand what you are getting at here. You think vaccines alter a child's physical appearance? I don't even know what to say to that.

Oh wait, yes I do: ridiculous.

No, I was suggesting that mutants rise up and fight the vaccines the government has turned into a weapon. Homo Sapiens Superior above all! The Celestials would have it no other way.

[Candor]

I've read a couple stories the past few days of infants who were too young to receive the measles vaccine becoming infected at their doctors office, because an older child visiting the office at the same time infected the infant. In both cases, the parents of the older child were against vaccinations.

If this isn't a criminal issue (and I think it should be), it is certainly a civil issue. I hope both sets of parents get sued for a huge amount of money.

[Tgo01]

I've read a couple stories the past few days of infants who were too young to receive the measles vaccine becoming infected at their doctors office, because an older child visiting the office at the same time infected the infant. In both cases, the parents of the older child were against vaccinations.

If this isn't a criminal issue (and I think it should be), it is certainly a civil issue. I hope both sets of parents get sued for a huge amount of money.

That's what I'm saying. I'm perfectly fine with someone being against vaccinations; as long as they keep themselves and their children far away from other people. Or move around in bubbles.