U.S. to open embassy in Cuba and renew diplomatic relationship.

[Androidpk]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/12/17/alan-gross-released-from-cuban-prison.html

[Taernath]

Good. The embargo should have been lifted a long time ago, anyway.

[Atlanteax]

Seems like an endeavor for confidence-building in regard to Iran & NK (and Russia) where when Cuba ends up prosperous again, the US can tell them "see what the benefits are of cooperation with us?"

[Ker_Thwap]

I can't help but think this will destroy Cuba, turning it into Miami east.

[Parkbandit]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, what we've done for the past 50 years obviously hasn't worked... but on the other hand, what has Cuba done lately to warrant this 180 degree change? Seems like we're rewarding them for nothing.

[Androidpk]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, what we've done for the past 50 years obviously hasn't worked... but on the other hand, what has Cuba done lately to warrant this 180 degree change? Seems like we're rewarding them for nothing.

What is it that they should be doing?

[Wrathbringer]

It's about time.

[Gelston]

What is it that they should be doing?

Not stationing nukes from the Soviet Union on their territory... Oh.. Wait..

[Parkbandit]

What is it that they should be doing?

Jailing (or worse) the ruling power's political dissidents
Have a representative government instead of a dictatorship
Stop repressing their citizens

[Gelston]

Jailing (or worse) the ruling power's political dissidents
Have a representative government instead of a dictatorship
Stop repressing their citizens

There are other countries that do this and worse that we have embassies in. I'd think sending in a little more US culture would probably help push their country more towards us, as opposed to the half century embargo that pushed them away.

[Androidpk]

Must be true if me and Gelston agree on something.

[waywardgs]

There are other countries that do this and worse that we have embassies in. I'd think sending in a little more US culture would probably help push their country more towards us, as opposed to the half century embargo that pushed them away.

Once they taste our sweet, sweet mcdonalds it will be all over.

Also, casinos incoming!

[Parkbandit]

There are other countries that do this and worse that we have embassies in. I'd think sending in a little more US culture would probably help push their country more towards us, as opposed to the half century embargo that pushed them away.

Yea.. I guess I just don't get the timing is all, but it has to start somewhere I guess.

[Atlanteax]

Yea.. I guess I just don't get the timing is all, but it has to start somewhere I guess.

As I indicated earlier, I think this is in part related to indicating to Iran & NK (and Russia) that US-applied sanctions *can* be removed.

[Gelston]

Yea.. I guess I just don't get the timing is all, but it has to start somewhere I guess.

Cuba did just release that one guy, Alan Gross... The stories indicate years of talk between the Obama Administration and Cuba. I imagine it is just all part of the deal.

I imagine actually having an Embassy inside of Cuba will help prevent this sort of thing in the future too.

[Gelston]

Furthermore, I think I should be made US Ambassador to Cuba. I can't speak Spanish, but that hasn't stopped others in similar situations.

[Fallen]

Good.

[Ker_Thwap]

Furthermore, I think I should be made US Ambassador to Cuba. I can't speak Spanish, but that hasn't stopped others in similar situations.

Exactly, it's not like we can be expected to learn every single weird little language in the world. :whistle:

[Whirlin]

Yea.. I guess I just don't get the timing is all, but it has to start somewhere I guess.
Supposedly, Obama got a bi-partisan request from 66 senators to do something about Cuba, because the guy that got released was having serious health concerns.

[Archigeek]

Long overdue. I think the timing is because the power of Cuban expats in Florida is waning. It is in our interests as a country, to have good relations with our neighbors.

[Jarvan]

Supposedly, Obama got a bi-partisan request from 66 senators to do something about Cuba, because the guy that got released was having serious health concerns.

I thought Cuba had the best healthcare in the world!! and Free!

Least that is what I learned from Michael Moore.

[Tenlaar]

I thought Cuba had the best healthcare in the world!! and Free!

Least that is what I learned from Michael Moore.

http://i60.tinypic.com/e830b5.png

[Jarvan]

Also, this is one time I do agree with Obama. Good move.

[Vorpos]

Yea.. I guess I just don't get the timing is all, but it has to start somewhere I guess.

I was thinking Fidel probably just died.

[Androidpk]

Poor Rubio is foaming at the mouth. Says he is going to block this in congress.

[Parkbandit]

Poor Rubio is foaming at the mouth. Says he is going to block this in congress.

I understand his viewpoint though.. even if I might disagree with it. We're rewarding the government of Cuba for doing nothing except "promising" to talk about human rights violations later on.

Many of the older Cuban refugees that are now in the US are not happy about this either.

[Androidpk]

I understand his viewpoint though.. even if I might disagree with it. We're rewarding the government of Cuba for doing nothing except "promising" to talk about human rights violations later on.

Many of the older Cuban refugees that are now in the US are not happy about this either.

Again, why should that matter? We have relations with countries that are worse off in regards to human rights than Cuba.

[Gelston]

As far as I can see, they gave us back one of our Citizens, who would have died in a Cuban prison... And we open an embassy there, as opposed to the special interests section which was basically an embassy in all but name.

[Archigeek]

I understand his viewpoint though.. even if I might disagree with it. We're rewarding the government of Cuba for doing nothing except "promising" to talk about human rights violations later on.

As opposed to a 55 year long embargo? What did that accomplish? There are strategic reasons to get to a point of good relations with Cuba. Consider that things are going south with Russia. I wouldn't put it past Putin to try to go back to propping up our communist neighbors out of spite. Even aside from that, it's just good policy to have good relations with close by neighboring countries.


Many of the older Cuban refugees that are now in the US are not happy about this either.

This is what I was referring to earlier about the timing. I'm sure you are right, and a lot of older Cuban refugees aren't happy, but that's mostly all that's left of Cuban refugees: old people, and fewer of them. They're finally down to not being the biggest driving force behind Florida politics. In the past, a president going against their wishes would be effectively kissing Florida goodbye in the next presidential election. This is why prior presidents stayed far away from doing anything about Cuba. Now we have a lame duck president combined with deteriorating power for the Cuban expat community, so the timing is right to finally do something.

Also Cuban cigars for all = win/win.

[Wrathbringer]

I am undecided as of yet which side I'll be trolling here, but I think it will be the "they haven't earned it" people.

[Parkbandit]

Again, why should that matter? We have relations with countries that are worse off in regards to human rights than Cuba.

Well, as long as we have relations with other countries that are worse off... it's A-O-K then.

[Gelston]

Well, as long as we have relations with other countries that are worse off... it's A-O-K then.

I think it comes down to... Why are we so disproportionately harsh on Cuba?

[Parkbandit]

As opposed to a 55 year long embargo? What did that accomplish? There are strategic reasons to get to a point of good relations with Cuba. Consider that things are going south with Russia. I wouldn't put it past Putin to try to go back to propping up our communist neighbors out of spite. Even aside from that, it's just good policy to have good relations with close by neighboring countries.

So, the Russian economy is going south.. but you think that the Russian Government will pump billions into Cuba?

Personally.. with the oil prices in free fall, the 2 countries that are propping up Cuba (Russia and Venezuela) are going to be unable to continue to do so. Maybe Cuba realized this and offered "promises".. but we certainly could have demanded more than "pinky swears".



This is what I was referring to earlier about the timing. I'm sure you are right, and a lot of older Cuban refugees aren't happy, but that's mostly all that's left of Cuban refugees: old people, and fewer of them. They're finally down to not being the biggest driving force behind Florida politics. In the past, a president going against their wishes would be effectively kissing Florida goodbye in the next presidential election. This is why prior presidents stayed far away from doing anything about Cuba. Now we have a lame duck president combined with deteriorating power for the Cuban expat community, so the timing is right to finally do something.


Very true on all counts. Like I said.. I don't disagree with the lifting of the embargo.. I just feel like we didn't get anything in exchange.


Also Cuban cigars for all = win/win.

Probably the biggest win for me personally.

[Parkbandit]

I think it comes down to... Why are we so disproportionately harsh on Cuba?

I think it was because we started the embargo, believing it would bring about democratic change to Cuba. It didn't.. and no one wanted to be "that guy" to let Cuba off the hook.

Good news is: Maybe we can keep Gitmo open now?

[Gelston]

I think it was because we started the embargo, believing it would bring about democratic change to Cuba. It didn't.. and no one wanted to be "that guy" to let Cuba off the hook.

Good news is: Maybe we can keep Gitmo open now?

Eh, that land is never going back to Cuba, due to the way the lease agreement is written out. Both countries have to agree to terminate it, and while I imagine Cuba would, I doubt we would.

As someone earlier posted though, I think a lot has to do with the Cuban refugees being a large block of voters in Florida and they don't like the Castros... Who are still in power.

[Archigeek]

I think it was because we started the embargo, believing it would bring about democratic change to Cuba. It didn't.. and no one wanted to be "that guy" to let Cuba off the hook.

Good news is: Maybe we can keep Gitmo open now?

I think part of it is something like that, except it's more like, if we go after someone and fail, or even don't win, we don't take that very well. If someone sticks their thumb in our eye, we get pissed and aren't very forgiving. Or, if we screw the pooch like Bay of Pigs.

As for Gitmo, I think it would be great if we eventually had good enough relations that either they were happy to have us, or we didn't care and were happy to give it back.

For me the summary is that it's just bad policy to continue a program that has done little other than maintain a feud with a neighbor who's only a short distance off our coast. We have no strategic reason to maintain that conflict anymore. None whatsoever. I don't really care what they get out of it, as long as we have good relationships with our neighbors.

[Gelston]

I think part of it is something like that, except it's more like, if we go after someone and fail, or even don't win, we don't take that very well. If someone sticks their thumb in our eye, we get pissed and aren't very forgiving. Or, if we screw the pooch like Bay of Pigs.

As for Gitmo, I think it would be great if we eventually had good enough relations that either they were happy to have us, or we didn't care and were happy to give it back.

For me the summary is that it's just bad policy to continue a program that has done little other than maintain a feud with a neighbor who's only a short distance off our coast. We have no strategic reason to maintain that conflict anymore. None whatsoever. I don't really care what they get out of it, as long as we have good relationships with our neighbors.

We aren't giving Guantanamo back. It held and continues to hold strategic value outside of being an internment camp, and will continue to do so after we close down that aspect.

[Androidpk]

We aren't giving Guantanamo back. It held and continues to hold strategic value outside of being an internment camp, and will continue to do so after we close down that aspect.

It is highly strategic for the upcoming pivot to the Caribbean.

[ClydeR]

We aren't giving Guantanamo back. It held and continues to hold strategic value outside of being an internment camp, and will continue to do so after we close down that aspect.

Yes, just like the Panama Canal.

[Gelston]

Yes, just like the Panama Canal.

If you don't see the difference between a strategic naval base and a canal, I don't know what to tell you.

[ClydeR]

What if all Senate debates were on Twitter? I would be okay with that.




http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/rmi08a/1a65b6de-bc78-4c8a-b0fa-7d64a0e1d6f6_zps9b240f2e.png


As a general rule, the bigger the potential benefit, the bigger the risk. This issue is big for Paul. With so many Republicans planning to run in 2016, he has to take risks to separate himself from the pack or herd (http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/about/faqs/animals/names.htm), depending on your point of view.. Also, I think Paul is baiting Rubio. Paul's position is consistent with his past statements. Paul has an op-ed today in Time (http://time.com/3642353/rand-paul-cuba-rubio-isolationists-just-dont-get-it/). I bet thirty minutes after you read the op-ed, you won't remember any more than you learned from the Tweets.

[Parkbandit]

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/12/220625-chuck-todd-hits-marco-rubio-gotcha-question-cuba-came-prepared-say-least/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Media

[Androidpk]

What a load of hot air.

[Whirlin]

http://www.ijreview.com/2014/12/220625-chuck-todd-hits-marco-rubio-gotcha-question-cuba-came-prepared-say-least/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Media

He just comes across upset that we didn't "win", when nobody is really interested in even playing the game anymore.

[Parkbandit]

He just comes across upset that we didn't "win", when nobody is really interested in even playing the game anymore.

I think he has a vested interest in trying to help the people of Cuba. I don't disagree with anything he said there.

Obama is a terrible negotiator and could have gotten something for restoring diplomatic relations. We got nothing in return.

[Androidpk]

I think he has a vested interest in trying to help the people of Cuba. I don't disagree with anything he said there.

Obama is a terrible negotiator and could have gotten something for restoring diplomatic relations. We got nothing in return.

We got the imprisoned contractor and intelligence asset released.

[Thondalar]

I can't help but think this will destroy Cuba, turning it into Miami east.

I'm late to this thread, but...I think being "Miami East" would be a serious upgrade for the average Cuban. You should probably check out what's really going on over there atm...there's a very good reason people strap themselves to a log and hope they float over here.

[Tgo01]

Obama is a terrible negotiator and could have gotten something for restoring diplomatic relations. We got nothing in return.

What? You mean like scraping our missile defense program in Europe and "resetting" our relations with Russia in exchange for nothing and just a short 6 years later we are at our lowest relations level with Russia since the end of the cold war? Get outta here!

[Methais]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this. On one hand, what we've done for the past 50 years obviously hasn't worked... but on the other hand, what has Cuba done lately to warrant this 180 degree change? Seems like we're rewarding them for nothing.

Dave Lombardo is Cuban. That's good enough.

[Jarvan]

I think he has a vested interest in trying to help the people of Cuba. I don't disagree with anything he said there.

Obama is a terrible negotiator and could have gotten something for restoring diplomatic relations. We got nothing in return.

If Obama played Monopoly... he would trade boardwalk to the person with Park Place for Pennsylvania Avenue (set not complete) and the promise of a green property in the future... maybe.

[Parkbandit]

We got the imprisoned contractor and intelligence asset released.

Not according to the Obama administration. Their release had nothing to do with the move to restore diplomatic relations.