IRS emails recovered and now, guess what?

[~Rocktar~]

It clearly looks like a deliberate conspiracy to use the IRS and possibly Department of Justice to intentionally attack, harass and possibly prosecute Conservative groups filing for tax exempt status. This is likely bigger than anything Nixon did and way more important than what Bill Clinton was Impeached for, but this isn't wide spread in the media is it? And who says the media isn't generally a bunch of Liberal lapdogs panting and drooling over a chance to advance the Liberal-Socialist agenda?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/12/10/obama-justice-department-was-involved-in-irs-targeting-lerner-emails-reveal/


A federal judge has broken loose more emails that the DOJ had surely hoped would never surface. The picture it reveals isn’t pretty. The documents prove that Lois Lerner met with DOJ’s Election Crimes Division a month before the 2010 elections.

It has to be embarrassing to the DOJ, which may not be the most impartial one to be investigating the IRS. In fact, the DOJ withheld over 800 pages of Lerner documents citing “taxpayer privacy” and “deliberative privilege.” Yet these internal DOJ documents show Ms. Lerner was talking to DOJ officials about prosecuting tax-exempt entities (yes, criminally!) two years before the IRS conceded there was inappropriate targeting.

This woman needs to go to prison for conspiracy and congressional perjury for the lies she told before she availed herself of her Fifth Amendment rights.

[Lord Orbstar]

May she burn in Hell forever.

[Androidpk]

Even if she was imprisoned Obama would give her a full pardon.

[Latrinsorm]

It clearly looks like a deliberate conspiracy to use the IRS and possibly Department of Justice to intentionally attack, harass and possibly prosecute Conservative groups filing for tax exempt status. This is likely bigger than anything Nixon did and way more important than what Bill Clinton was Impeached for, but this isn't wide spread in the media is it? And who says the media isn't generally a bunch of Liberal lapdogs panting and drooling over a chance to advance the Liberal-Socialist agenda?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/12/10/obama-justice-department-was-involved-in-irs-targeting-lerner-emails-reveal/

This woman needs to go to prison for conspiracy and congressional perjury for the lies she told before she availed herself of her Fifth Amendment rights.The Justice Department offers advice on prosecution of 501(c)(4)s in general. At no point do they mention ideological leaning or disproportionate targeting. Good try, no points.

[~Rocktar~]

The Justice Department offers advice on prosecution of 501(c)(4)s in general. At no point do they mention ideological leaning or disproportionate targeting. Good try, no points.

Sooooo, why should someone be prosecuted for filing for status? How was I not clear? Oh, sorry, I forgot and nearly took your post as something that should be taken seriously, my bad.

[Back]

Why should conservative groups with the sole purpose of fundraising be tax exempt in the first place?

[Parkbandit]

Why should conservative groups with the sole purpose of fundraising be tax exempt in the first place?

lulwut?

[Ker_Thwap]

Sooooo, why should someone be prosecuted for filing for status? How was I not clear? Oh, sorry, I forgot and nearly took your post as something that should be taken seriously, my bad.

Did you read the article? It specifically asks if people who lied about their status can be prosecuted. It's hardly the smoking gun that you think it is.

[Back]

Yep. It's a piece designed to froth up the lemmings.

[Ker_Thwap]

Yep. It's a piece designed to froth up the lemmings.

You added a stupid comment as well, don't get all high and mighty.

[Back]

You added a stupid comment as well, don't get all high and mighty.

Incomplete perhaps.

I don't think political fund raising groups of any kind should be tax exempt. I don't think churches should be either.

[Ker_Thwap]

Incomplete perhaps.

I don't think political fund raising groups of any kind should be tax exempt. I don't think churches should be either.

That's better. We wouldn't want anyone to think you were only against illegal conservative groups. How about people with ties to mobsters? Should they be prosecuted, or just elected president?

[Latrinsorm]

Sooooo, why should someone be prosecuted for filing for status? How was I not clear? Oh, sorry, I forgot and nearly took your post as something that should be taken seriously, my bad.Because lying on a form that gives your organization tax exempt status sounds a lot like tax evasion. I'm not using the phrase "sounds a lot like" in a facetious sense, I honestly don't know if it constitutes tax fraud or not, but if I had contacts in the Department of Justice they would certainly be good people to ask.

[Wrathbringer]

Incomplete perhaps.

I don't think political fund raising groups of any kind should be tax exempt. I don't think churches should be either.

I'm tax exempt. It's nice.

[Candor]

Why should conservative groups with the sole purpose of fundraising be tax exempt in the first place?

Take out the word "conservative" in that post and we can talk about it...

[Candor]

I don't think churches should be either.

Nope, can't agree with that at all.

Although we can certainly debate the definition of the word "church", as obviously there is abuse of this status.

[Tgo01]

I wonder if liberals realize when they say "churches" shouldn't be tax exempt this also means their beloved Muslims/Mosques would also lose their tax exempt status.

I bet liberals literally think only churches are tax exempt. Who wants to bet me? Anyone? Anyone?

[Whirlin]

I wonder if liberals realize when they say "churches" shouldn't be tax exempt this also means their beloved Muslims/Mosques would also lose their tax exempt status.

I bet liberals literally think only churches are tax exempt. Who wants to bet me? Anyone? Anyone?

I'll take that bet.

My counter-evidence


...Really?

[Tgo01]

I'll take that bet.

My counter-evidence


...Really?

Yes really. All I ever see liberals say is they want to see churches lose their tax exempt status. They must really think this is a way to stick it to Christians without realizing it affects other religions too.

To be fair I guess they just don't know the difference between a church and a mosque. Or are just using the term "church" as an all encompassing term but let's get real. We all know I'm right.

[Tgo01]

Okay, how about this one. I wonder how fast liberals would rise up and denounce the IRS/government as being a bunch of fascist assholes the minute the government tries to close down a mosque for failure to pay taxes.

[Ker_Thwap]

Yes really. All I ever see liberals say is they want to see churches lose their tax exempt status. They must really think this is a way to stick it to Christians without realizing it affects other religions too.

To be fair I guess they just don't know the difference between a church and a mosque. Or are just using the term "church" as an all encompassing term but let's get real. We all know I'm right.

I'm a moderate, I want churches to lose tax exempt status. When I say church, I mean any old goofy ass religion at all. Christians, Scientologists, Muslims, Jews, you name it. I thought some of these churches were quite liberal, and am surprised you even look at it as a liberal/conservative issue.

[Warriorbird]

Okay, how about this one. I wonder how fast liberals would rise up and denounce the IRS/government as being a bunch of fascist assholes the minute the government tries to close down a mosque for failure to pay taxes.

Close them all down.

[Androidpk]

Can't say I've ever seen or heard a liberal say they only wanted Christian churches have their tax exempt status removed. Songs like more tgo hyperbole.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm not liberal and I think nothing and no one should be tax exempt.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Also, that article doesn't seem damning to me. I skim read through it, but I think that it makes sense to look into 501c's to ensure their tax exempt status is justified. I do think Lerner is guilty though, but that article does nothing so far as I, a layman, can tell to damn her or the justice department.

[Parkbandit]

I'm a moderate, I want churches to lose tax exempt status. When I say church, I mean any old goofy ass religion at all. Christians, Scientologists, Muslims, Jews, you name it. I thought some of these churches were quite liberal, and am surprised you even look at it as a liberal/conservative issue.

So you just want "new" religions like Scientology to be tax exempt?

[Parkbandit]

I'm not liberal and I think nothing and no one should be tax exempt.

Students, making less than $10,000 per year?

Elderly, making less than $30,000 per year?

Disabled, making no money per year?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Students, making less than $10,000 per year?

Elderly, making less than $30,000 per year?

Disabled, making no money per year?

Yes to all. They all have access to government programs to assist them right? Pay taxes to participate in those programs.

[Parkbandit]

Yes to all. They all have access to government programs to assist them right? Pay taxes to participate in those programs.

But doesn't that seem pointless?

Disabled person is getting full government assistance... but now has to turn around and pay income tax on that government assistance?

And what about entities like small businesses that pay no income tax? Should they also be taxed?

[Latrinsorm]

Incomplete perhaps.

I don't think political fund raising groups of any kind should be tax exempt. I don't think churches should be either.
Okay, how about this one. I wonder how fast liberals would rise up and denounce the IRS/government as being a bunch of fascist assholes the minute the government tries to close down a mosque for failure to pay taxes.
I'm a moderate, I want churches to lose tax exempt status. When I say church, I mean any old goofy ass religion at all. Christians, Scientologists, Muslims, Jews, you name it. I thought some of these churches were quite liberal, and am surprised you even look at it as a liberal/conservative issue.The thing people misunderstand is that there is no tax exempt status purely on the basis of religion. That would be flagrantly unconstitutional. Religious organizations of all kind can file for tax exempt status under 501(c)(3) - to forbid them from doing so on the basis of their being religious would, again, be flagrantly unconstitutional. The freedom of religion is expressly designed for the government to not mention religion. If you stick to that promise, it's really hard for your laws to be biased for or against any religion. (Obviously our government does NOT stick to that promise, but that's not the Founders' fault.) (It's Obama's. Did he vote against including the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? No. QED.)

501(c)(3) has certain requirements and if you meet them, you are exempt. One of those requirements is "it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates". This is why 501(c)(3)s can and should be targeted for being political in general, and this in turn is why the claim is not that such groups were targeted at all, but disproportionately on the basis of being R teamers. You could ask why that claim has never been backed up empirically, but I would be forced to wonder what R team you've been watching the past, oh, forever years.

[Ker_Thwap]

So you just want "new" religions like Scientology to be tax exempt?

I left the poor phrasing, expecting someone would ding me for "ass religions" vs. "goofy ass." I set you up perfectly, and you go with "new?" Bah!

[Wrathbringer]

Yes to all. They all have access to government programs to assist them right? Pay taxes to participate in those programs.

And if they've no interest in those programs? According to your last, they should still pay taxes anyway, right? Sounds a lot like Obamacare.

[Wrathbringer]

I left the poor phrasing, expecting someone would ding me for "ass religions" vs. "goofy ass." I set you up perfectly, and you go with "new?" Bah!

Hey, you're treading dangerously close to toilet humor with that.

[Atlanteax]

But doesn't that seem pointless?

Disabled person is getting full government assistance... but now has to turn around and pay income tax on that government assistance?

And what about entities like small businesses that pay no income tax? Should they also be taxed?

Not necessarily pointless. If necessitated to file & pay taxes to ensure receipt of assistance programs, it may be easier to detect the fraudulent among them.

[Parkbandit]

I left the poor phrasing, expecting someone would ding me for "ass religions" vs. "goofy ass." I set you up perfectly, and you go with "new?" Bah!

http://jessture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/ivana-hong-dance-moves-i-am-win2.gif

[Ker_Thwap]

The thing people misunderstand is that there is no tax exempt status purely on the basis of religion. That would be flagrantly unconstitutional. Religious organizations of all kind can file for tax exempt status under 501(c)(3) - to forbid them from doing so on the basis of their being religious would, again, be flagrantly unconstitutional. The freedom of religion is expressly designed for the government to not mention religion. If you stick to that promise, it's really hard for your laws to be biased for or against any religion. (Obviously our government does NOT stick to that promise, but that's not the Founders' fault.) (It's Obama's. Did he vote against including the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? No. QED.)

501(c)(3) has certain requirements and if you meet them, you are exempt. One of those requirements is "it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates". This is why 501(c)(3)s can and should be targeted for being political in general, and this in turn is why the claim is not that such groups were targeted at all, but disproportionately on the basis of being R teamers. You could ask why that claim has never been backed up empirically, but I would be forced to wonder what R team you've been watching the past, oh, forever years.


Pub 1828 disagrees with you.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

But doesn't that seem pointless?

Disabled person is getting full government assistance... but now has to turn around and pay income tax on that government assistance?

And what about entities like small businesses that pay no income tax? Should they also be taxed?

Sure it's pointless. It's absurd. I think everyone should pay taxes. If the government is in the business of providing for everyone, everyone should pay into it. ESPECIALLY those who take the most from the government.

You want to know what pisses me off lately? Every day I drive home I hear on the radio these companies who work with you and the IRS to resolve tax debt. I think that's bullshit. Your option should be - pay the money you owe in taxes, or go to jail. Not negotiate. What a crock of shit. And don't get me started on bankruptcy, another scam to not be responsible.

You know what I don't think should be taxed? Inheritance. Gifts. Capital gains. Nothing sucks more than being smart or lucky in the stock market and having to give up some of it to the Government because you were smart/lucky.

But yeah, I think everyone should pay in to the government, since we all benefit from it.

[Tgo01]

Can't say I've ever seen or heard a liberal say they only wanted Christian churches have their tax exempt status removed. Songs like more tgo hyperbole.

Back just said he wants to see churches lose their tax exempt status.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

And if they've no interest in those programs? According to your last, they should still pay taxes anyway, right? Sounds a lot like Obamacare.

I think if you benefit at all from the United States government, yes, you should pay taxes. You interested in the road you drive on? The mail you get?

[Androidpk]

I think if you benefit at all from the United States government, yes, you should pay taxes. You interested in the road you drive on? The mail you get?

So you're saying we should have a freedom tax?

[Latrinsorm]

Pub 1828 disagrees with you.I see nothing that disagrees with what my post said. If you have something specific in mind, I'll be happy to tell you what you have misunderstood. :)
You want to know what pisses me off lately? Every day I drive home I hear on the radio these companies who work with you and the IRS to resolve tax debt. I think that's bullshit. Your option should be - pay the money you owe in taxes, or go to jail. Not negotiate. What a crock of shit. And don't get me started on bankruptcy, another scam to not be responsible.Your options as the government are:

1. Have universal surveillance. (Best.)
2. Take a hard line. (Worst.)
3. Compromise, thereby gaining some revenue from those who would otherwise ignore you and get away with it. (Compromise.)

[Ker_Thwap]

You want to know what pisses me off lately? Every day I drive home I hear on the radio these companies who work with you and the IRS to resolve tax debt. I think that's bullshit. Your option should be - pay the money you owe in taxes, or go to jail. Not negotiate. What a crock of shit. And don't get me started on bankruptcy, another scam to not be responsible.

Why would this annoy you? It's called an Offer in Compromise. It's actually an awesome collection tool. I'm working off my memory from a decade ago, but the general deal is. You were once profitable, and ended up owing taxes, you're no longer profitable, and unlikely to be profitable again. You total up the value of all your assets, mix in a little bit of future earnings potential, and come up with a number. The trick is that you can't pay with your own cash, or even a loan, as that value would then be added into the mix of your worth. So, this means you have to have a benefactor who is willing to pay the IRS debt directly for you. Then to top it off, you must be squeaky clean as far as future IRS debt. Screw up again, and the full balance of the debt comes back. So, it helps future compliance and gets the full value of what you're capable of paying.

This isn't some credit card debt deal where you just kind of pay off what's convenient for everyone. Yeah, bankruptcy, especially for businesses has some horrible loopholes that let the officers skate free too often.

[Ker_Thwap]

I see nothing that disagrees with what my post said. If you have something specific in mind, I'll be happy to tell you what you have misunderstood.

Automatic exemption for churches.

[Latrinsorm]

Automatic exemption for churches."Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt"

[waywardgs]

Sure it's pointless. It's absurd. I think everyone should pay taxes. If the government is in the business of providing for everyone, everyone should pay into it. ESPECIALLY those who take the most from the government.

You want to know what pisses me off lately? Every day I drive home I hear on the radio these companies who work with you and the IRS to resolve tax debt. I think that's bullshit. Your option should be - pay the money you owe in taxes, or go to jail. Not negotiate. What a crock of shit. And don't get me started on bankruptcy, another scam to not be responsible.

You know what I don't think should be taxed? Inheritance. Gifts. Capital gains. Nothing sucks more than being smart or lucky in the stock market and having to give up some of it to the Government because you were smart/lucky.

But yeah, I think everyone should pay in to the government, since we all benefit from it.

There's a lot wrong here, but I'll just remind you that debtor's prison was determined to be completely nonsensical a very long time ago by most nations outside of UAE and the like. As in, hundreds of years ago. You can't pay anyone back from behind prison bars.

[Ker_Thwap]

"Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt"

"Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt"

[Latrinsorm]

"Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt"Well then you've lost me. Which part of my post do you think that disagrees with? Is it...

"The thing people misunderstand is that there is no tax exempt status purely on the basis of religion."
"Religious organizations of all kind can file for tax exempt status under 501(c)(3)"
"501(c)(3) has certain requirements and if you meet them, you are exempt."

?

[Ker_Thwap]

Well then you've lost me. Which part of my post do you think that disagrees with? Is it...

"The thing people misunderstand is that there is no tax exempt status purely on the basis of religion."
"Religious organizations of all kind can file for tax exempt status under 501(c)(3)"
"501(c)(3) has certain requirements and if you meet them, you are exempt."

?

Oh, you're standing on the purely strawman? I see. You're technically correct, which is the best kind. So, science, charity, education... and "telling people what to believe" all start equal. However, let's give the "telling people what to believe" folks the added option of not even having to fill out the form unless they feel like it.

[Latrinsorm]

Oh, you're standing on the purely strawman? I see.I'm standing on the words I said, yes. I thought that was a commendable thing to do? If I ceased doing so, would your opinion of me improve? I think not!
You're technically correct, which is the best kind. So, science, charity, education... and "telling people what to believe" all start equal. However, let's give the "telling people what to believe" folks the added option of not even having to fill out the form unless they feel like it.It's true that religious organizations don't have to fill out the form. Has anyone in this thread complained about that? Or have the complaints been universally about their tax exempt status in itself? Maybe this is why you give me such grief about technical accuracy: when I do so, your blatantly moving the goalposts is thrust into the light. Naked... aye, naked! And the wind, science's icy wind, will blow! (The wind is my penis.)

[Tenlaar]

Yes really. All I ever see liberals say is they want to see churches lose their tax exempt status. They must really think this is a way to stick it to Christians without realizing it affects other religions too.

To be fair I guess they just don't know the difference between a church and a mosque. Or are just using the term "church" as an all encompassing term but let's get real. We all know I'm right.

Are you not aware that one of the definitions of church is "institutionalized religion as a political or social force", such as the meaning when used in the phrase "separation of church and state?"

You're acting pretty retarded here.

[Ker_Thwap]

I'm standing on the words I said, yes. I thought that was a commendable thing to do? If I ceased doing so, would your opinion of me improve? I think not!It's true that religious organizations don't have to fill out the form. Has anyone in this thread complained about that? Or have the complaints been universally about their tax exempt status in itself? Maybe this is why you give me such grief about technical accuracy: when I do so, your blatantly moving the goalposts is thrust into the light. Naked... aye, naked! And the wind, science's icy wind, will blow! (The wind is my penis.)

You moved the goalposts to open the conversation with your "purely" garbage. Did you see anyone (other than Hightower) complaining that 501c organizations exist? No, the issue is that religion is a category that qualifies for 501c status at all.

All you did is toss in the random fact that the exemption is based on a specific IRS code, with the qualifier of "purely." So yes, you're technically correct, but not correct in practice. In practice, religions are exempt from taxation despite earning substantial amounts of money and isn't even required to file the Form 990. Limited oversight by the IRS because reasons. Once again, you obfuscate with irrelevant factoids.

[Jarvan]

Lets get back to the real purpose of this thread.

Lois Lerner, and the DOJ/IRS bullshit.

Ok.. so SOMEONE at the DOJ that we are NOT allowed to know asked the IRS to meet with them about "501c4 'Issues'". Doesn't say what issues, or if there were issues.

I love the email..


“Hi Lois-It’s been a long time, and you might not remember me, I’ve taken on [REDACTED] duties. I’m looking forward to meeting you, Can we chat in advance? I’m a [REDACTED]”

What could his/her duties possibly be that they REDACTED it? I mean.. ANYTHING the guy/gal is doing has to be legit, right? Is he/she an undercover agent for the CIA? What job or duties could he/she be doing? I think the second one is them saying "I am ~at~ (telephone number)" but it's the duties they have taken on that are surprising.. and why we don't know their name.

It is NOT unreasonable for the DOJ to call up or contact different departments to get some idea of possible crimes that may be going on, or to get information from people that would be "experts" in what the DOJ is doing.

What is unreasonable, is for them to Lie about it. Redact it. Then act illegally on it. I wonder why it was that shortly after this "meeting" the targeting of tea party groups started.

[waywardgs]

Lets get back to the real purpose of this thread.

Lois Lerner, and the DOJ/IRS bullshit.

Ok.. so SOMEONE at the DOJ that we are NOT allowed to know asked the IRS to meet with them about "501c4 'Issues'". Doesn't say what issues, or if there were issues.

I love the email..



What could his/her duties possibly be that they REDACTED it? I mean.. ANYTHING the guy/gal is doing has to be legit, right? Is he/she an undercover agent for the CIA? What job or duties could he/she be doing? I think the second one is them saying "I am ~at~ (telephone number)" but it's the duties they have taken on that are surprising.. and why we don't know their name.

It is NOT unreasonable for the DOJ to call up or contact different departments to get some idea of possible crimes that may be going on, or to get information from people that would be "experts" in what the DOJ is doing.

What is unreasonable, is for them to Lie about it. Redact it. Then act illegally on it. I wonder why it was that shortly after this "meeting" the targeting of tea party groups started.

Meh. Things get redacted for any number of reasons. It's just a matter if course.

[Back]

I wonder if liberals realize when they say "churches" shouldn't be tax exempt this also means their beloved Muslims/Mosques would also lose their tax exempt status.

I bet liberals literally think only churches are tax exempt. Who wants to bet me? Anyone? Anyone?


Yes really. All I ever see liberals say is they want to see churches lose their tax exempt status. They must really think this is a way to stick it to Christians without realizing it affects other religions too.

To be fair I guess they just don't know the difference between a church and a mosque. Or are just using the term "church" as an all encompassing term but let's get real. We all know I'm right.


Okay, how about this one. I wonder how fast liberals would rise up and denounce the IRS/government as being a bunch of fascist assholes the minute the government tries to close down a mosque for failure to pay taxes.

You are off the rails, bro. Thats some crazy train. You ok, brother? I'm a little concerned.

[Thondalar]

I think if you benefit at all from the United States government, yes, you should pay taxes. You interested in the road you drive on? The mail you get?

Just because the system in place is the one we have, doesn't mean there isn't a better one.

[Thondalar]

Once again, you obfuscate with irrelevant factoids.

Dude. Don't even try to bring reality into this. It messes up his hair.

[Keller]

Lets get back to the real purpose of this thread.

Lois Lerner, and the DOJ/IRS bullshit.

Ok.. so SOMEONE at the DOJ that we are NOT allowed to know asked the IRS to meet with them about "501c4 'Issues'". Doesn't say what issues, or if there were issues.

I love the email..



What could his/her duties possibly be that they REDACTED it? I mean.. ANYTHING the guy/gal is doing has to be legit, right? Is he/she an undercover agent for the CIA? What job or duties could he/she be doing? I think the second one is them saying "I am ~at~ (telephone number)" but it's the duties they have taken on that are surprising.. and why we don't know their name.

It is NOT unreasonable for the DOJ to call up or contact different departments to get some idea of possible crimes that may be going on, or to get information from people that would be "experts" in what the DOJ is doing.

What is unreasonable, is for them to Lie about it. Redact it. Then act illegally on it. I wonder why it was that shortly after this "meeting" the targeting of tea party groups started.

http://i.imgur.com/o8bBgNk.png

[caelric]

But doesn't that seem pointless?

Disabled person is getting full government assistance... but now has to turn around and pay income tax on that government assistance?

And what about entities like small businesses that pay no income tax? Should they also be taxed?

As a somewhat interesting sidenote, military pay (and other gov't pay, for gov't workers) is taxed. Yes, we get paid by the gov't, and then turn around and pay some directly back in taxes. (Also, only the salary portion of our pay is taxes, the housing allowance is not taxed. Makes filing taxes slightly more difficult)

Sidenote to the sidenote: I don't see anything wrong with that; I think everyone should pay taxes. My opinion (and yes, it is merely an opinion) is that by participating in the system (i.e., paying taxes), you have an interest in the system, as compared to someone who pays no taxes. Even a token amount makes you more interested in the system than otherwise.

[Parkbandit]

As a somewhat interesting sidenote, military pay (and other gov't pay, for gov't workers) is taxed. Yes, we get paid by the gov't, and then turn around and pay some directly back in taxes. (Also, only the salary portion of our pay is taxes, the housing allowance is not taxed. Makes filing taxes slightly more difficult)

FILING TAXES SHOULD NOT BE DIFFICULT TO FILE. PERIOD!

Dumbest thing is that filing your taxes requires a CPA to do them correctly. Fuck that. Should be painless and easy as fuck.


Sidenote to the sidenote: I don't see anything wrong with that; I think everyone should pay taxes. My opinion (and yes, it is merely an opinion) is that by participating in the system (i.e., paying taxes), you have an interest in the system, as compared to someone who pays no taxes. Even a token amount makes you more interested in the system than otherwise.

I honestly don't have a problem with that, as long as it's easy to file.

[Latrinsorm]

You moved the goalposts to open the conversation with your "purely" garbage. Did you see anyone (other than Hightower) complaining that 501c organizations exist? No, the issue is that religion is a category that qualifies for 501c status at all.And like I said, it would be flagrantly unconstitutional to say that religions can't receive that status at all on the basis of their being religious, in the same way that it would be to say that they can at all on that basis. (I switched from purely to at all because you apparently have some kind of beef with adverbs, and I can't really blame you.) The statute sets the same rules for everybody, religious and non-, and it so happens that the big religions abide by those rules. They could do otherwise, and a significant number of Christians wish they would, and that is what freedom means.
All you did is toss in the random fact that the exemption is based on a specific IRS code, with the qualifier of "purely." So yes, you're technically correct, but not correct in practice. In practice, religions are exempt from taxation despite earning substantial amounts of money and isn't even required to file the Form 990. Limited oversight by the IRS because reasons. Once again, you obfuscate with irrelevant factoids.Earning substantial amounts of money is in no way a violation of the code. Your trump card that they don't have to file particular forms has already been addressed.
Dude. Don't even try to bring reality into this. It messes up his hair.You need more training to mess up my hair.

[Johnny Five]

I think if you benefit at all from the United States government, yes, you should pay taxes. You interested in the road you drive on? The mail you get?

One, I question where you live. Two, you mean the failing USPS?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

One, I question where you live. Two, you mean the failing USPS?

If you want to get into the failing parts of the government, we'll be talking all day. The root of why I think everyone should pay taxes, is that everyone benefits from what those taxes fund. It pisses me off that roughly half the people in the US don't pay federal taxes. I'm not saying tax the shit out of them, but I am saying tax everyone. Want to vote? Show your tax ID for last year. Get a drivers license? Same deal. Enroll your children in school? Same deal. Just immigrated here and haven't paid taxes? Show your legal immigration documents. Buy a gun? Lets see that tax ID.

Sure there is a lot more to it than that, but get people invested in where their tax money goes, and I think it's be grassroots to changing the way things are done in DC. Right now half the people don't care, because they don't pay federal taxes. Yet the still get benefits. I pay taxes, and I'm not qualified for most of the benefits, and I certainly have no say other than to vote every election, and I'm just a drop of water in an ocean, and more than half the ocean doesn't vote or is uniformed because they don't care.

Get people to care about things more than just the "what does it do to me", and more like "what can I do to affect change and improve things?"

[zzentar]

If you want to get into the failing parts of the government, we'll be talking all day. The root of why I think everyone should pay taxes, is that everyone benefits from what those taxes fund. It pisses me off that roughly half the people in the US don't pay federal taxes. I'm not saying tax the shit out of them, but I am saying tax everyone. Want to vote? Show your tax ID for last year. Get a drivers license? Same deal. Enroll your children in school? Same deal. Just immigrated here and haven't paid taxes? Show your legal immigration documents. Buy a gun? Lets see that tax ID.

Sure there is a lot more to it than that, but get people invested in where their tax money goes, and I think it's be grassroots to changing the way things are done in DC. Right now half the people don't care, because they don't pay federal taxes. Yet the still get benefits. I pay taxes, and I'm not qualified for most of the benefits, and I certainly have no say other than to vote every election, and I'm just a drop of water in an ocean, and more than half the ocean doesn't vote or is uniformed because they don't care.

Get people to care about things more than just the "what does it do to me", and more like "what can I do to affect change and improve things?"


^^^^^^^^^^^^
I don't think I have ever agreed with a post more.

~Zz

[Johnny Five]

If you want to get into the failing parts of the government, we'll be talking all day. The root of why I think everyone should pay taxes, is that everyone benefits from what those taxes fund. It pisses me off that roughly half the people in the US don't pay federal taxes. I'm not saying tax the shit out of them, but I am saying tax everyone. Want to vote? Show your tax ID for last year. Get a drivers license? Same deal. Enroll your children in school? Same deal. Just immigrated here and haven't paid taxes? Show your legal immigration documents. Buy a gun? Lets see that tax ID.

Sure there is a lot more to it than that, but get people invested in where their tax money goes, and I think it's be grassroots to changing the way things are done in DC. Right now half the people don't care, because they don't pay federal taxes. Yet the still get benefits. I pay taxes, and I'm not qualified for most of the benefits, and I certainly have no say other than to vote every election, and I'm just a drop of water in an ocean, and more than half the ocean doesn't vote or is uniformed because they don't care.

Get people to care about things more than just the "what does it do to me", and more like "what can I do to affect change and improve things?"

I agree a majority of people should get taxed (Minus disability and SS). And everyone pays taxes at some point. Be it gas tax, sales tax, property tax. I was just laughing at the roads part. I live in MN/ND and our roads are always shit, always under construction, never really improving just getting paved over. In ND if it snows too much they just close the entire interstate 94. Ever hit a pothole at 80 mph? I believe we need to first look at where our money goes before we just tax more, get more, shit more around on useless/not needed programs.

[Ker_Thwap]

And like I said, it would be flagrantly unconstitutional to say that religions can't receive that status at all on the basis of their being religious, in the same way that it would be to say that they can at all on that basis. (I switched from purely to at all because you apparently have some kind of beef with adverbs, and I can't really blame you.) The statute sets the same rules for everybody, religious and non-, and it so happens that the big religions abide by those rules. They could do otherwise, and a significant number of Christians wish they would, and that is what freedom means.Earning substantial amounts of money is in no way a violation of the code. Your trump card that they don't have to file particular forms has already been addressed.You need more training to mess up my hair.

Several categories are allowed to apply for tax exemption. Most are based on real world beliefs and goals. The religion category is based on what exactly? So, because a religion makes shit up, has a building, has a congregation, and a few other random things... they get special rules on when they can even be audited, special rules that they don't even have to apply, special rules that they don't even have to file tax returns. Many more special rules that allow them to avoid government oversight.

People are annoyed with churches, not because they're subject to 501c, but because they're even allowed to qualify for 501c3 without demonstrating evidence that they do any kind of public good. It's based on an outdated tradition, rather than any sort of measurable public gain. It's special interest silliness.

You can tear down your own strawman yourself, learn, explore, google. You're clever, you can do it.

[Atlanteax]

If you want to get into the failing parts of the government, we'll be talking all day. The root of why I think everyone should pay taxes, is that everyone benefits from what those taxes fund. It pisses me off that roughly half the people in the US don't pay federal taxes. I'm not saying tax the shit out of them, but I am saying tax everyone. Want to vote? Show your tax ID for last year. Get a drivers license? Same deal. Enroll your children in school? Same deal. Just immigrated here and haven't paid taxes? Show your legal immigration documents. Buy a gun? Lets see that tax ID.

Sure there is a lot more to it than that, but get people invested in where their tax money goes, and I think it's be grassroots to changing the way things are done in DC. Right now half the people don't care, because they don't pay federal taxes. Yet the still get benefits. I pay taxes, and I'm not qualified for most of the benefits, and I certainly have no say other than to vote every election, and I'm just a drop of water in an ocean, and more than half the ocean doesn't vote or is uniformed because they don't care.

Get people to care about things more than just the "what does it do to me", and more like "what can I do to affect change and improve things?"

Agreed. Now just a matter of waiting to see what asinine counterpoint(s) Latrin attempts to make.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I agree a majority of people should get taxed (Minus disability and SS). And everyone pays taxes at some point. Be it gas tax, sales tax, property tax. I was just laughing at the roads part. I live in MN/ND and our roads are always shit, always under construction, never really improving just getting paved over. In ND if it snows too much they just close the entire interstate 94. Ever hit a pothole at 80 mph? I believe we need to first look at where our money goes before we just tax more, get more, shit more around on useless/not needed programs.

I don't believe we need to raise taxes. PB says it all the time, taxes should be easy, and I'd agree. Now that the ACA (who's spirit I do support, but not how it is implemented today) is tied to taxes though, they are even MORE complex and tied to everything else. If fixing the tax code occurs in my lifetime, I will be shocked. We'll be on Mars before the tax code gets fixed.

[Parkbandit]

Several categories are allowed to apply for tax exemption. Most are based on real world beliefs and goals. The religion category is based on what exactly? So, because a religion makes shit up, has a building, has a congregation, and a few other random things... they get special rules on when they can even be audited, special rules that they don't even have to apply, special rules that they don't even have to file tax returns. Many more special rules that allow them to avoid government oversight.

People are annoyed with churches, not because they're subject to 501c, but because they're even allowed to qualify for 501c3 without demonstrating evidence that they do any kind of public good. It's based on an outdated tradition, rather than any sort of measurable public gain. It's special interest silliness.

You can tear down your own strawman yourself, learn, explore, google. You're clever, you can do it.

http://www.sitepronews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/cybergedeon_dont_feed_troll_no_text.jpg

[Ker_Thwap]

http://www.sitepronews.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/cybergedeon_dont_feed_troll_no_text.jpg

I threw out my back this morning, I'm camped at the PC today until the twinges stop. I had a moment of weakness. Yes, I know it's my own fault.

[Androidpk]

I threw out my back this morning, I'm camped at the PC today until the twinges stop. I had a moment of weakness. Yes, I know it's my own fault.

You know what's good for back pains? :)

[Ker_Thwap]

You know what's good for back pains? :)

Motrin, one tablet every six hours, not to exceed 6 tablets in 24 hours. A nice cold compress. Neither of which impairs my cognitive abilities.

[Wrathbringer]

Motrin, one tablet every six hours, not to exceed 6 tablets in 24 hours. A nice cold compress. Neither of which impairs my cognitive abilities.

A couple of years ago I was at the drugstore getting cough/cold medicine for kids. I saw that they made a non-drowsy version and thought to myself, "Why would anyone ever buy that?"

[Methais]

Yep. It's a piece designed to froth up the lemmings.

You calling anyone, even other liberals, a lemming...

http://wilk4.com/humor/img/346_dog_laughing.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

Agreed. Now just a matter of waiting to see what asinine counterpoint(s) Latrin attempts to make.Everyone pays federal taxes, and your (SHM et al) responses are exactly what the people who lied to you are hoping for. They pull the strings and you dance along. You should certainly be mad, just in a different direction.
People are annoyed with churches, not because they're subject to 501c, but because they're even allowed to qualify for 501c3 without demonstrating evidence that they do any kind of public good. It's based on an outdated tradition rather than any sort of measurable public gain. It's special interest silliness.That's great, but even if you struck the advancement of religion clause, every religion would still meet 501c3 requirements under advancement of education. No, the truth isn't that you want religions to prove anything, you want religions banned from tax exempt status because they are religions. How do I know this? Because you and your ilk have said so, multiple times. While you may consider the First Amendment an outdated tradition, patriots like myself and Barack Hussein Obama do not.
You can tear down your own strawman yourself, learn, explore, google. You're clever, you can do it.But I have already torn down the straw man you made of me, and might I add that your depiction of my eyebrows was quite far off the mark.

[Ker_Thwap]

But I have already torn down the straw man you made of me, and might I add that your depiction of my eyebrows was quite far off the mark.

I'm sorry, but have I once mocked you for living in your grandmother's house? There's no other logical explanation for that wall hanging, because science.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm sorry, but have I once mocked you for living in your grandmother's house? There's no other logical explanation for that wall hanging, because science.You have done goofed more goofily than any goofer in history, notwithstanding Robo Goofers. I will magnanimously give you this chance to retract your statement, and that will be the end of it.

[Ker_Thwap]

You have done goofed more goofily than any goofer in history, notwithstanding Robo Goofers. I will magnanimously give you this chance to retract your statement, and that will be the end of it.

I believe I've uncovered Latrinsorm's emotional kryptonite. I promise to use this power only for good.