torture report compilied for political reasons

[Lord Orbstar]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/dianne-feinsteins-travesty-113486.html?ml=po

I am not for nor endorse torture, even of ismlacist terrorist bastards. I am for simply killing them all. Some of the stuff we did upsets me and makes my skin crawl. However, this report was a hit piece and not truly designed to illuminate anything other than partisan politics and and Feinstein's rage (justifiable rage) at being spied on by the CIA while she was leading her investigation. Feinstein did a "hangover" line on the CIA... "you fuck on me? I fuck on YOU!!"

the CIA did bad stuff but not nearly as bad as this report makes it.
the CIA fucked up by meddling in the senate investigation
The investigation was/is flawed and became dirty politics
the investigation results, delivered so one-sided, have besmirched America
Diane Feinstein is a liberal hack and shouldve never risen past the puddle of blood in SF City Hall she used to gain power (if any of you understand that reference...)

[Wrathbringer]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/dianne-feinsteins-travesty-113486.html?ml=po

I am not for nor endorse torture, even of ismlacist terrorist bastards. I am for simply killing them all. Some of the stuff we did upsets me and makes my skin crawl. However, this report was a hit piece and not truly designed to illuminate anything other than partisan politics and and Feinstein's rage (justifiable rage) at being spied on by the CIA while she was leading her investigation. Feinstein did a "hangover" line on the CIA... "you fuck on me? I fuck on YOU!!"

the CIA did bad stuff but not nearly as bad as this report makes it.
the CIA fucked up by meddling in the senate investigation
The investigation was/is flawed and became dirty politics
the investigation results, delivered so one-sided, have besmirched America
Diane Feinstein is a liberal hack and shouldve never risen past the puddle of blood in SF City Hall she used to gain power (if any of you understand that reference...)

Seek help.

[Fallen]

So if we just killed them all, 26 of those guys that went without charges that we tortured would have been 26 guys we executed without charge. Hmmm.

[Parkbandit]

So if we just killed them all, 26 of those guys that went without charges that we tortured would have been 26 guys we executed without charge. Hmmm.

Yea.. I just can't seem to get all this outrage. It's better to just kill them with drone attacks or cruise missile attacks?

And this isn't a "Senate report", it's a "Senate Democrat report".

[Fallen]

Yea.. I just can't seem to get all this outrage. It's better to just kill them with drone attacks or cruise missile attacks?

And this isn't a "Senate report", it's a "Senate Democrat report".

Two things can be wrong at the same time. Droning innocent people is wrong. Torturing innocent people is wrong.

[Parkbandit]

Two things can be wrong at the same time. Droning innocent people is wrong. Torturing innocent people is wrong.

But I don't see the same amount of 'outrage' when we blow dozens of people up with a drone than we do with one terrorist dying of hypothermia because we didn't give him a warm enough blanket.

[Wrathbringer]

But I don't see the same amount of 'outrage' when we blow dozens of people up with a drone than we do with one terrorist dying of hypothermia because we didn't give him a warm enough blanket.

Media bias. R's & D's love death from above. It's only stoners, libertarians, ron paul and country traitors that are against drone bombing.

[Fallen]

But I don't see the same amount of 'outrage' when we blow dozens of people up with a drone than we do with one terrorist dying of hypothermia because we didn't give him a warm enough blanket.

One could argue if the program was more open, with some sort of major report equal to the impact of this torture report were to come out, people would freak out in equal amounts. AND people are pretty pissed out drones, especially the people being droned.

That being said, you have a point. Just like the odd distinction between normal weaponry and biological/chemical weaponry, we freak out a lot more over one than the other.

[Ker_Thwap]

I'm thinking torture drones would make everyone happy.

[Fallen]

I'm thinking torture drones would make everyone happy.

Remind me to rep you later. I just laughed my ass off in the middle of class.

[Androidpk]

I'm thinking torture drones would make everyone happy.

Stoner drones would be more practical and effective.

[Lord Orbstar]

they were captured on the battlefield. at the time, they were deemed to have information or were "big" fish, so instead of being killed or imprisoned locally, they were sent to GTMO. No one is in GTMO on accident. I know from personal experience. GTMO and the enhanced interrogation are murky to say the least and I do with they had been killed like the dogs they are in battle. Battle may mean a cruise missle, a JDAM or small arms fire. I dont care. The terrorist that died of hypothermia...that is indefensible. The Station Chief should have been prosecuted. Once we take a prisoner, no matter how shitty they are, they are entitled to humane treatment and to not be killed without a judgment.

It may seem weird that I wish they had been killed at the point of capture and defend their rights once captured, but that is how war works. Or how Just War is supposed to work. We are not the fucking Japanese of WOrld War II, but this report makes us seem so. And if we are all honest, some things reported did happen and should offend all of us as Americans. We are better than that.

[Parkbandit]

One could argue if the program was more open, with some sort of major report equal to the impact of this torture report were to come out, people would freak out in equal amounts. AND people are pretty pissed out drones, especially the people being droned.

Not really. There are plenty of stories about people being killed by drone strikes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/obama-drone-program-anniversary_n_4654825.html

Still... pretty much silent on the outrage. 2,400 people killed.. many of them innocent. "BUT ZOMG A TERRORIST DIED FROM HYPOTHERMIA!!!! THIS IS TORTURE!!! WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS !!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!"



That being said, you have a point. Just like the odd distinction between normal weaponry and biological/chemical weaponry, we freak out a lot more over one than the other.

Yup. Look at all the outrage over the atom bombs on Japan. We killed just as many people with just incendiary bombs in Tokyo a few months earlier.

[Androidpk]

>Yup. Look at all the outrage over the atom bombs on Japan. We killed just as many people with just incendiary bombs in Tokyo a few months earlier.

Yup. I imagine that has to do with people just not knowing how catastrophic those raids on Tokyo were. Operation Meetinghouse on March 9th alone is estimated to have killed between 80,000 and 120,000 people.

[Wrathbringer]

>Yup. Look at all the outrage over the atom bombs on Japan. We killed just as many people with just incendiary bombs in Tokyo a few months earlier.

Yup. I imagine that has to do with people just not knowing how catastrophic those raids on Tokyo were. Operation Meetinghouse on March 9th alone is estimated to have killed between 80,000 and 120,000 people.
USA! USA!USA!

[Ceyrin]

Personally, I would've converted the entire middle eastern region to glass a long time ago.

[Androidpk]

Personally, I would've converted the entire middle eastern region to glass a long time ago.

The amount of nukes that would have to be involved would have a lasting world wide effect.

[kutter]

I am going to get blasted by this, but I am far more Machiavellian in my mindset.

If what the CIA did resulted in any sort of good INTEL then I am totally okay with it. No one twisted their arms to take up arms against the US, they did so with religious fervor. There is no such thing as a humane war, it is war, people die, bad things happen, if you want to decrease the odds it will happen to you, do not take up arms, otherwise shit happens. Sometimes the ends do justify the means, like when you decide to hijack 4 planes and kill thousands of people, all bets are off then.

Maybe we should have just cut their heads off on youtube then all of you that are up in arms would not have given a shit.

[crb]

>Yup. Look at all the outrage over the atom bombs on Japan. We killed just as many people with just incendiary bombs in Tokyo a few months earlier.

Yup. I imagine that has to do with people just not knowing how catastrophic those raids on Tokyo were. Operation Meetinghouse on March 9th alone is estimated to have killed between 80,000 and 120,000 people.

People, in general, are ignorant on most aspects of history.

[crb]

I'm thinking torture drones would make everyone happy.

http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080707170317/starwars/images/1/12/I'llNeverTell.jpg

[Jeril]

Personally, I would've converted the entire middle eastern region to glass a long time ago.

You aren't alone.

[Androidpk]

I am going to get blasted by this, but I am far more Machiavellian in my mindset.

If what the CIA did resulted in any sort of good INTEL then I am totally okay with it. No one twisted their arms to take up arms against the US, they did so with religious fervor. There is no such thing as a humane war, it is war, people die, bad things happen, if you want to decrease the odds it will happen to you, do not take up arms, otherwise shit happens. Sometimes the ends do justify the means, like when you decide to hijack 4 planes and kill thousands of people, all bets are off then.

Maybe we should have just cut their heads off on youtube then all of you that are up in arms would not have given a shit.

From what I have read and heard over the years torture does not provide actionable intel.

You are right that war is inhumane but as a nation we abide by the Geneva convention and law of armed conflict for a reason. Just because we may be fighting savages doesn't mean we have to act savage as well.

[Ceyrin]

The amount of nukes that would have to be involved would have a lasting world wide effect.

Don't ruin it for me.

[Latrinsorm]

Not really. There are plenty of stories about people being killed by drone strikes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/obama-drone-program-anniversary_n_4654825.html

Still... pretty much silent on the outrage. 2,400 people killed.. many of them innocent. "BUT ZOMG A TERRORIST DIED FROM HYPOTHERMIA!!!! THIS IS TORTURE!!! WE ARE BETTER THAN THIS !!!! THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!"We didn't intentionally drone innocent people. We intentionally maltreated prisoners to the point that they died. Intent is often a relevant factor in our justice system; for instance, the difference between murder and manslaughter.
Yup. Look at all the outrage over the atom bombs on Japan. We killed just as many people with just incendiary bombs in Tokyo a few months earlier.The outrage is not based on body count, but the bolded portion of your post.

[Androidpk]

We didn't intentionally drone innocent people

Yes we did, thanks to shitty rules of engagement saying that all individuals within range of known terrorists/insurgents/Taliban are acceptable collateral damage.

[Wrathbringer]

Yes we did, thanks to shittu rules of engagement saying that all individuals within range of known terrorists/insurgents/Taliban are acceptable collateral damage.

USA! USA! USA!

[Tgo01]

We didn't intentionally drone innocent people.

That one cop didn't intentionally mean to kill that guy in NY either but that didn't stop people from making a bigger deal out of that than the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the war on terrorism combined.

[Latrinsorm]

That one cop didn't intentionally mean to kill that guy in NY either but that didn't stop people from making a bigger deal out of that than the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the war on terrorism combined.Shut up, Latrin.

[Tgo01]

Shut up, Latrin.

Shut up, Latrin.

[Latrinsorm]

Well played, sir. Well played.

[~Rocktar~]

The amount of nukes that would have to be involved would have a lasting world wide effect.

Yeah, we would not have to deal with ISIL or ISIS or whatever they are calling themselves, al-Qaeda and a lot of other terror groups. It would have likely also been cheaper in the long run both in money and lives on both sides because sooner or later the fanatics are going to have to be gotten rid of and the longer it takes to do it the more the cost will rise in gold and blood.

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah, we would not have to deal with ISIL or ISIS or whatever they are calling themselves, al-Qaeda and a lot of other terror groups.Only way for that to be true is to nuke the entire world.
It would have likely also been cheaper in the long run both in money and lives on both sides because sooner or later the fanatics are going to have to be gotten rid of and the longer it takes to do it the more the cost will rise in gold and blood.There are 400,000,000 people in the Middle East.

[kutter]

From what I have read and heard over the years torture does not provide actionable intel.

You are right that war is inhumane but as a nation we abide by the Geneva convention and law of armed conflict for a reason. Just because we may be fighting savages doesn't mean we have to act savage as well.

Certainly old techniques, specifically involving pain did not produce good results, people had a tendency to tell the interrogators whatever they thought they wanted to hear even if it was all bullshit. More modern techniques, are designed to confuse or weaken the ability to resist, not so much to coerce. Admittedly waterboarding falls somewhere not quite in either but it seems to produce results so I am still ok with it. Sleep deprivation and if it could ever be perfected sensory deprivation seem far better alternatives without permanent effects, not that I actually care that much about that, but it is easier for the mass public to accept it if we do not actually hurt the nice little terrorist.

And just to clarify, they are not covered by the Geneva Convention. By the strictest definition they would be classified as spies and could be shot on sight. I am ok with that too, but it would do little to help us prevent the next time someone wants to kill several thousand people in this country.

[Latrinsorm]

Certainly old techniques, specifically involving pain did not produce good results, people had a tendency to tell the interrogators whatever they thought they wanted to hear even if it was all bullshit. More modern techniques, are designed to confuse or weaken the ability to resist, not so much to coerce. Admittedly waterboarding falls somewhere not quite in either but it seems to produce results so I am still ok with it. Sleep deprivation and if it could ever be perfected sensory deprivation seem far better alternatives without permanent effects, not that I actually care that much about that, but it is easier for the mass public to accept it if we do not actually hurt the nice little terrorist.

And just to clarify, they are not covered by the Geneva Convention. By the strictest definition they would be classified as spies and could be shot on sight. I am ok with that too, but it would do little to help us prevent the next time someone wants to kill several thousand people in this country.You know what does little to help us prevent terrorist attacks? Torturing people who aren't terrorists.

[Tgo01]

You know what does little to help us prevent terrorist attacks? Torturing people who aren't terrorists.

Do you have any data to back up this claim?

[Androidpk]

Do you have any data to back up this claim?

It's sitting right next to the data on cops killed in their cruisers.

[Tgo01]

It's sitting right next to the data on cops killed in their cruisers.

Shut up, Latrin.

[Androidpk]

Shut up, Latrin.

You're lucky jeopardy is on.

[kutter]

You know what does little to help us prevent terrorist attacks? Torturing people who aren't terrorists.

First your presumption that someone may or may not be a terrorist is semantics. As far as I am concerned, if you are not helping me solve the problem then you are part of the problem, ergo a terrorist. But my wife accuses me of seeing the world in black and white so that is my cross to bear.

Let us work with your false assumption though about these non-terrorist not knowing anything. How about that pesky neighbour as an example, the one that is always around, we all have one or two, he may run the homeowners association, he always seems to know what everyone is doing . Just because someone does not live with you does not mean they do not know a lot about what is going on in your life. In fact that is where the lions share of intel comes from, and people that provide that information are not 'tortured' as you put it, but interrogated.

[Androidpk]

First your presumption that someone may or may not be a terrorist is semantics. As far as I am concerned, if you are not helping me solve the problem then you are part of the problem, ergo a terrorist. But my wife accuses me of seeing the world in black and white so that is my cross to bear.

Let us work with your false assumption though about these non-terrorist not knowing anything. How about that pesky neighbour as an example, the one that is always around, we all have one or two, he may run the homeowners association, he always seems to know what everyone is doing . Just because someone does not live with you does not mean they do not know a lot about what is going on in your life. In fact that is where the lions share of intel comes from, and people that provide that information are not 'tortured' as you put it, but interrogated.


http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120728195044/bloonsconception/images/6/60/Facepalm.png

[Wrathbringer]

First your presumption that someone may or may not be a terrorist is semantics. As far as I am concerned, if you are not helping me solve the problem then you are part of the problem, ergo a terrorist. But my wife accuses me of seeing the world in black and white so that is my cross to bear.

Let us work with your false assumption though about these non-terrorist not knowing anything. How about that pesky neighbour as an example, the one that is always around, we all have one or two, he may run the homeowners association, he always seems to know what everyone is doing . Just because someone does not live with you does not mean they do not know a lot about what is going on in your life. In fact that is where the lions share of intel comes from, and people that provide that information are not 'tortured' as you put it, but interrogated.


http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120728195044/bloonsconception/images/6/60/Facepalm.png

LOL

http://www.mixednutsclowns.com/wpimages/wpa329ce6a.gif

[waywardgs]

There are 400,000,000 terrorists in the Middle East.

Fixed that for you. Don't you know anything?

[Hightower]

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/12/dianne-feinsteins-travesty-113486.html?ml=po

I am not for nor endorse torture, even of ismlacist terrorist bastards. I am for simply killing them all. Some of the stuff we did upsets me and makes my skin crawl. However, this report was a hit piece and not truly designed to illuminate anything other than partisan politics and and Feinstein's rage (justifiable rage) at being spied on by the CIA while she was leading her investigation. Feinstein did a "hangover" line on the CIA... "you fuck on me? I fuck on YOU!!"

the CIA did bad stuff but not nearly as bad as this report makes it.
the CIA fucked up by meddling in the senate investigation
The investigation was/is flawed and became dirty politics
the investigation results, delivered so one-sided, have besmirched America
Diane Feinstein is a liberal hack and shouldve never risen past the puddle of blood in SF City Hall she used to gain power (if any of you understand that reference...)


I frankly don't give a shit what games people are playing. I'm sure it was politically motivated. If it weren't, I'm betting we never would have heard a peep about this again! As a human being and an American, this disgusts me. Not that I wasn't already positive that we were torturing people in the name of fighting terrorism. We all knew that, didn't we? I was against it then and I'm against it now. Safety and fighting terrorism is important, but so are the principles that are supposed to define America. Principles which revelations like these make us question if we ever really had in the first place. Hypocrisy to the extreme, and that is a danger to our ability to be the world leader we're supposed to be as well as a banner for our enemies to rally behind. Our corrupt leadership should have thought of that when they were engaging in these activities. And their pathetic finger-pointing now isn't helping.

~Taverkin

[Latrinsorm]

First your presumption that someone may or may not be a terrorist is semantics. As far as I am concerned, if you are not helping me solve the problem then you are part of the problem, ergo a terrorist. But my wife accuses me of seeing the world in black and white so that is my cross to bear.

Let us work with your false assumption though about these non-terrorist not knowing anything. How about that pesky neighbour as an example, the one that is always around, we all have one or two, he may run the homeowners association, he always seems to know what everyone is doing . Just because someone does not live with you does not mean they do not know a lot about what is going on in your life. In fact that is where the lions share of intel comes from, and people that provide that information are not 'tortured' as you put it, but interrogated.So if I understand you correctly...

Terrorist vs. not terrorist - semantics
Torture vs. waterboarding, sleep deprivation et al - totally different

You don't feel the slightest dissonance in holding these two positions?