us torture report released today

[Wrathbringer]

Discuss g-dub' s execution for war crimes here.

[Fallen]

"Now is not the right time to release the report." I'm curious, when do people think it is the right time to release this report? When will we not be embroiled in some conflict or another in the Middle East? It's the same kind of statement as "Now is not the right time to talk about gun control/racism/etc"

Sometimes you torture some folks, sometimes you get called on it.

[Wrathbringer]

"Now is not the right time to release the report." I'm curious, when do people think it is the right time to release this report? When will we not be embroiled in some conflict or another in the Middle East? It's the same kind of statement as "Now is not the right time to talk about gun control/racism/etc"

Sometimes you torture some folks, sometimes you get called on it.

It's a cop out, plain and simple. Given the choice, I'm sure they'd prefer it never be released. Accountability is for other countries.

[Fallen]

This

In its most graphic details, the report finds that conditions for detainees at top secret overseas interrogation sites were much harsher than the CIA has previously admitted. It finds that high value detainees were subjected to methods like waterboarding and sleep deprivation "in near nonstop fashion for days or weeks at a time."

"In many cases, the most aggressive techniques were used immediately, in combination and nonstop," the report says. "Sleep deprivation involved keeping detainees awake for up to 180 hours, usually standing or in painful stress positions, at times with their hands shackled above their heads."


In one facility, a detainee was said to have died of hypothermia after being held "partially nude" and chained to a concrete floor, while at other times, naked prisoners were hooded and dragged up and down corridors while being slapped and punched."

Plus this

The report finds that at least 119 detainees went through the CIA detention program and at least 26 were held "wrongfully," partly because there was no information to justify their detention.
=
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/217/7/d/facepalm_by_himmapaan-d59wyk4.jpg

[Wrathbringer]

This

Plus this

=
http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/217/7/d/facepalm_by_himmapaan-d59wyk4.jpg

I think someone has to be held accountable. According to the article, that someone is the CIA who reported to no one (riiiiiiight). If we tortured "folks", some individuals should be held accountable. Who will it be? I'm going with no one, because we're hypocrites like that.

[waywardgs]

I think someone has to be held accountable. According to the article, that someone is the CIA who reported to no one (riiiiiiight). If we tortured "folks", some individuals should be held accountable. Who will it be? I'm going with no one, because we're hypocrites like that.


"Former Vice President Dick Cheney told the New York Times that claims that the CIA was out of bounds or that the interrogation program was a rogue operations were "a bunch of hooey."
"The program was authorized. The agency did not want to proceed without authorization, and it was also reviewed legally by the Justice Department before they undertook the program," Cheney said."

Well, there ya go. Looks like Vader is taking responsibility.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politics/cia-torture-report/

[Jarvan]

I think someone has to be held accountable. According to the article, that someone is the CIA who reported to no one (riiiiiiight). If we tortured "folks", some individuals should be held accountable. Who will it be? I'm going with no one, because we're hypocrites like that.

Well... it's likely there wasn't a "smidgeon" of corruption in the CIA at the time. So they couldn't have done anything wrong.

Maybe I am a horrible person, but I don't really give a shit if we used enhanced techniques on these people or not. Hell, we use these things on OUR OWN TROOPS to prepare them for what they will face when captured.

I mean seriously.. water boarding and sleep deprivation... now if they were peeling off the skin of the detainees and scraping the nerve endings with knives, while pumping them full of drugs to keep them awake and alert all the time.. maybe I would be a little less ok with it.

[Wrathbringer]

Well... it's likely there wasn't a "smidgeon" of corruption in the CIA at the time. So they couldn't have done anything wrong.

Maybe I am a horrible person, but I don't really give a shit if we used enhanced techniques on these people or not. Hell, we use these things on OUR OWN TROOPS to prepare them for what they will face when captured.

I mean seriously.. water boarding and sleep deprivation... now if they were peeling off the skin of the detainees and scraping the nerve endings with knives, while pumping them full of drugs to keep them awake and alert all the time.. maybe I would be a little less ok with it.

Enhanced techniques lol

[waywardgs]

Well... it's likely there wasn't a "smidgeon" of corruption in the CIA at the time. So they couldn't have done anything wrong.

Maybe I am a horrible person, but I don't really give a shit if we used enhanced techniques on these people or not. Hell, we use these things on OUR OWN TROOPS to prepare them for what they will face when captured.

I mean seriously.. water boarding and sleep deprivation... now if they were peeling off the skin of the detainees and scraping the nerve endings with knives, while pumping them full of drugs to keep them awake and alert all the time.. maybe I would be a little less ok with it.

We chain up our troops and kick them to keep them awake for 180 hours straight? Jeez. Someone should look into that.

[Tgo01]

We should have just called it an "Ice bucket challenge" and raised money for charity at the same time.

[Ker_Thwap]

I can't get too concerned about damp terrorists.

Cardinal Biggles... fetch, the comfy chair

[Wrathbringer]

"Former Vice President Dick Cheney told the New York Times that claims that the CIA was out of bounds or that the interrogation program was a rogue operations were "a bunch of hooey."
"The program was authorized. The agency did not want to proceed without authorization, and it was also reviewed legally by the Justice Department before they undertook the program," Cheney said."

Well, there ya go. Looks like Vader is taking responsibility.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politics/cia-torture-report/

He just wasn't content to indict himself, was he? "Hey, everyone said it was okay at the time! What?! Why are you looking at me like that?!"

[ClydeR]

The summary of the torture report -- big 525 page PDF file (http://www.intelligence.senate.gov/study2014/sscistudy1.pdf) -- is out. It's just the summary. It covers the period from late 2001 to early 2009. There are several findings in the report, the seventh of which completely exonerates President Bush..


#7: The CIA impeded effective White House oversight and decision-making.

How could Bush possibly be responsible if nobody told him what was happening? It should once again be safe for him to travel to other countries without fear of being arrested for war crimes.


The Director of the ACLU is calling on President Obama to pardon everybody involved in the torture program. No, your eyes do not deceive you.


BEFORE President George W. Bush left office, a group of conservatives lobbied the White House to grant pardons to the officials who had planned and authorized the United States torture program. My organization, the American Civil Liberties Union, found the proposal repugnant. Along with eight other human rights groups, we sent a letter to Mr. Bush arguing that granting pardons would undermine the rule of law and prevent Americans from learning what had been done in their names.

But with the impending release of the report from the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, I have come to think that President Obama should issue pardons, after all — because it may be the only way to establish, once and for all, that torture is illegal.

More... (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/09/opinion/pardon-bush-and-those-who-tortured.html)

[Fallen]

Apparently there was some weird butt stuff going on too. Sick things, man.


http://youtu.be/LFTTZ9E_e2Y

[Latrinsorm]

Well... it's likely there wasn't a "smidgeon" of corruption in the CIA at the time. So they couldn't have done anything wrong.

Maybe I am a horrible person, but I don't really give a shit if we used enhanced techniques on these people or not. Hell, we use these things on OUR OWN TROOPS to prepare them for what they will face when captured.

I mean seriously.. water boarding and sleep deprivation... now if they were peeling off the skin of the detainees and scraping the nerve endings with knives, while pumping them full of drugs to keep them awake and alert all the time.. maybe I would be a little less ok with it.You read the part where one in five detainees were actually innocent, right?

[Wrathbringer]

You read the part where one in five detainees were actually innocent, right?

AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FO DAT!

Edit: USA! USA! USA!

[Parkbandit]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lb9h1mZQLS1qb6jd9o1_250.gif

[Hightower]

All this cryin' about some potentially innocent arabs who might have been incarcerated, beaten, humiliated, and maybe had their meals shoved up their asses. Who cares?

Unless it's a war hero like say, John McCain. You will respect that man! Respect him! Wave your P.O.W. flag, put the bumpersticker on your car, and remember that Americans don't torture people because we don't call it that! Fuckin' liberals. Such a bunch of pussies!

[Latrinsorm]

I didn't think anyone could top the awkward timing of "Let's Be Cops" and Ferguson, but now alongside this report we have...

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTY3ODg2OTgyOF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwODk1OTAwMzE@._ V1_SX214_AL_.jpg

...about an American POW subject to enhanced techniques by the Japanese. Sorry, Angie!

[Wrathbringer]

All this cryin' about some potentially innocent arabs who might have been incarcerated, beaten, humiliated, and maybe had their meals shoved up their asses. Who cares?

Unless it's a war hero like say, John McCain. You will respect that man! Respect him! Wave your P.O.W. flag, put the bumpersticker on your car, and remember that Americans don't torture people because we don't call it that! Fuckin' liberals. Such a bunch of pussies!

I have his autograph on a baseball authenticated by PSA. 25m.

[ClydeR]

I'm starting to get tired of people on the teevee saying that President Bush was responsible for wrongdoing. If he had been involved, would he have said this in 2003?


Today, on the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States declares its strong solidarity with torture victims across the world. Torture anywhere is an affront to human dignity everywhere. We are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law.

Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right. The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, ratified by the United States and more than 130 other countries since 1984, forbids governments from deliberately inflicting severe physical or mental pain or suffering on those within their custody or control. Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit. Beating, burning, rape, and electric shock are some of the grisly tools such regimes use to terrorize their own citizens. These despicable crimes cannot be tolerated by a world committed to justice.

More... (http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2003/06/20030626-3.html)


Furthermore, President Bush didn't even know what was going on. He specifically instructed the CIA not to tell him, because he was afraid of leaks. Leaks by the President. He couldn't be responsible without knowledge of what was happening.


President Bush asked officials not to tell him the whereabouts of CIA detention facilities abroad for fear he would blurt out details, the report reveals.

The documents state that “the president had directed that he not be informed of the locations of the CIA detention facilities to ensure he would not accidentally disclose the information”.

More... (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/americas/article4292672.ece)

[Androidpk]

Shut up latrine.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Frankly I don't think we've done enough.

Our President, who says we aren't these people, is against getting intelligence from terrorists, but perfectly fine blowing them up with drones. No trial... likely collateral damage... Our President, who blamed the attack on Benghazi on international violence due to a video, is perfectly fine himself releasing a 4000 page report that everyone says will incite violence against Americans around the world.

Our liberal media, who has their panties in a twist over the UVA reporting done by Rolling Stone without interviewing the accused or validating the facts, is perfectly ok with a 5 year 40 million dollar investigation into the CIA without any interviews of those being accused.

I don't give a fuck about a bunch of terrorists who chop of the heads of defenseless people. We cannot kill enough of them.

And if anyone believes anyone in Congress was not aware of what the CIA was doing, was not in fact supporting and probably encouraging them to do it, they are gullible fools.

Obama has gone so fucking far left I actually hate the mother fucker now. Whenever his lying ignorant socialist motherfucking racist Putin bitch petulant childlike cunt of a vagina utters anything I want to vomit. I'm actually in favor of some of the things he advocates, but he's such a cunt bag hypocrite I cannot in good conscience even give him a modicum of credit. I honestly believe he is the fucking worst thing to have ever happened to the United States in the last 25 years, and that includes 9/11.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't give a fuck about a bunch of terrorists who chop of the heads of defenseless people. We cannot kill enough of them.You read the part where one in five detainees were actually innocent, right?
I honestly believe he is the fucking worst thing to have ever happened to the United States in the last 25 years, and that includes 9/11.Ah. Nevermind.

[Lord Orbstar]

Latrin, honestly, none of them were/are innocent. Perhaps they were not given a trial, but they are not innocent. The decision to not try has more to do with protecting secrets, politics and sources than it has to do with justice. These were enemy combatants, financiers, or collaborators all.

SuppaHobbit, we cannot kill enough of them fast enough for me either. But, we MUST stay the high road and exectute Just War. If we lack that self-imposed restraint, we lose moral authority and respect in the world. If we do not have that self-restraint, then we can march our legions across the world and create our own version of Holy American Empire. However, that is not how we are as a people. We rebelled against and won freedom from tyranny and empire. We cannot become that and remain America.

[Wrathbringer]

Frankly I don't think we've done enough.

Our President, who says we aren't these people, is against getting intelligence from terrorists, but perfectly fine blowing them up with drones. No trial... likely collateral damage... Our President, who blamed the attack on Benghazi on international violence due to a video, is perfectly fine himself releasing a 4000 page report that everyone says will incite violence against Americans around the world.

Our liberal media, who has their panties in a twist over the UVA reporting done by Rolling Stone without interviewing the accused or validating the facts, is perfectly ok with a 5 year 40 million dollar investigation into the CIA without any interviews of those being accused.

I don't give a fuck about a bunch of terrorists who chop of the heads of defenseless people. We cannot kill enough of them.

And if anyone believes anyone in Congress was not aware of what the CIA was doing, was not in fact supporting and probably encouraging them to do it, they are gullible fools.

Obama has gone so fucking far left I actually hate the mother fucker now. Whenever his lying ignorant socialist motherfucking racist Putin bitch petulant childlike cunt of a vagina utters anything I want to vomit. I'm actually in favor of some of the things he advocates, but he's such a cunt bag hypocrite I cannot in good conscience even give him a modicum of credit. I honestly believe he is the fucking worst thing to have ever happened to the United States in the last 25 years, and that includes 9/11.

We kill them, they kill us, we kill them harder, they kill us, we kill them harder... No one has any problem with this pattern? We need to stop it. We need to get back to a strong national DEFENSE and away from "a good offense is the best defense." This isn't a football game. The Bush doctrine only escalates the hatred/violence. Bring everyone home.

[Androidpk]

We kill them, they kill us, we kill them harder, they kill us, we kill them harder... No one has any problem with this pattern? We need to stop it. We need to get back to a strong national DEFENSE and away from "a good offense is the best defense." This isn't a football game. The Bush doctrine only escalates the hatred/violence. Bring everyone home.

It's too bad you spout bullshit all the time because this is actually pretty factual.

[Wrathbringer]

It's too bad you spout bullshit all the time because this is actually pretty factual.

"If you're not trolling these forums, you're doing them wrong." -Methais.

[Androidpk]

"If you're not trolling these forums, you're doing them wrong." -Methais.

You need a better role model.

[Wrathbringer]

You need a better role model.

:lol:

You're right, though.

:(

[~Rocktar~]

We kill them, they kill us, we kill them harder, they kill us, we kill them harder... No one has any problem with this pattern? We need to stop it. We need to get back to a strong national DEFENSE and away from "a good offense is the best defense." This isn't a football game. The Bush doctrine only escalates the hatred/violence. Bring everyone home.

And the Clinton doctrine of head in the sand did what exactly? Multiple embassy bombings, a naval ship bombed, kidnappings, failed humanitarian missions and the bodies of American troops on the streets of Mogadishu followed by a spineless withdrawal. We also tried the bring everyone home and ignore the world, it lead up to WWII.

[Androidpk]

And the Clinton doctrine of head in the sand did what exactly? Multiple embassy bombings, a naval ship bombed, kidnappings, failed humanitarian missions and the bodies of American troops on the streets of Mogadishu followed by a spineless withdrawal. We also tried the bring everyone home and ignore the world, it lead up to WWII.

That is all true and yet it doesn't discredit the fact that violence begets violence.

[Jarvan]

It's too bad you spout bullshit all the time because this is actually pretty factual.

You really think they would "leave us alone" if we left them alone?

Keep smoking the weed, dude.

[waywardgs]

You really think they would "leave us alone" if we left them alone?

Keep smoking the weed, dude.

We'll just keep being the world's police, because that's been working out really well for us.

[Androidpk]

You really think they would "leave us alone" if we left them alone?

Keep smoking the weed, dude.

Is that what I said? No. Learn to read, dude.

[Wrathbringer]

You really think they would "leave us alone" if we left them alone?

Keep smoking the weed, dude.

No, they wouldn't. That's why we have defense. It takes very little intelligence to realize we cannot rid the world of threats. It takes a great deal of stupidity to believe we can. It takes naivety to believe that offensive force throughout the world makes us any safer here at home. Keep smoking the crack, dude.

[Wrathbringer]

And the Clinton doctrine of head in the sand did what exactly? Multiple embassy bombings, a naval ship bombed, kidnappings, failed humanitarian missions and the bodies of American troops on the streets of Mogadishu followed by a spineless withdrawal. We also tried the bring everyone home and ignore the world, it lead up to WWII.

How many of those things happen if we'd had no presence in those places? 0.

[~Rocktar~]

How many of those things happen if we'd had no presence in those places? 0.

Invent alternate dimensional travel so we can find out. Until then, keep armchair quarterbacking for some of the smartest people in the world. Personally, I believe that we should be so vicious, violent and destructive to our enemies that our friends beg enemies not to attack us so as not to unleash hell on earth. We are the best in the world at waging Jihad and these extremist bastards want one, we should show them what it really looks like.

[Androidpk]

Invent alternate dimensional travel so we can find out. Until then, keep armchair quarterbacking for some of the smartest people in the world. Personally, I believe that we should be so vicious, violent and destructive to our enemies that our friends beg enemies not to attack us so as not to unleash hell on earth. We are the best in the world at waging Jihad and these extremist bastards want one, we should show them what it really looks like.


Worst idea ever.

[Wrathbringer]

Invent alternate dimensional travel so we can find out. Until then, keep armchair quarterbacking for some of the smartest people in the world. Personally, I believe that we should be so vicious, violent and destructive to our enemies that our friends beg enemies not to attack us so as not to unleash hell on earth. We are the best in the world at waging Jihad and these extremist bastards want one, we should show them what it really looks like.

I personally don't need dimensional travel to figure out that if we're not there for those things to happen to us, then they don't happen to us. Your ideas as illustrated here, if you're not trolling, are shortsighted, dimwitted and dangerous. Oh, and retarded. If you're trolling, then rock on. If not, I'll suggest an education to get you on the right track and some world travel to broaden your narrow scope. Best of luck to you.

[Ker_Thwap]

I personally don't need dimensional travel to figure out that if we're not there for those things to happen to us, then they don't happen to us. Your ideas as illustrated here, if you're not trolling, are shortsighted, dimwitted and dangerous. Oh, and retarded. If you're trolling, then rock on. If not, I'll suggest an education to get you on the right track and some world travel to broaden your narrow scope. Best of luck to you.

You just want him to travel the world, so he'll get beheaded.

[~Rocktar~]

I personally don't need dimensional travel to figure out that if we're not there for those things to happen to us, then they don't happen to us. Your ideas as illustrated here, if you're not trolling, are shortsighted, dimwitted and dangerous. Oh, and retarded. If you're trolling, then rock on. If not, I'll suggest an education to get you on the right track and some world travel to broaden your narrow scope. Best of luck to you.

So, we should close all embasies, not allow Americans to traval abroad and have no navy anywhere, right? Seriously, you can't predict with any accuracy the change in the world over the past 100 years had we taken different policies.

[waywardgs]

On rocktar's map of the world, outside the us borders it just says HERE BE MONSTERS in big black lettering.

[~Rocktar~]

On rocktar's map of the world, outside the us borders it just says HERE BE MONSTERS in big black lettering.

Funny, but no. Please try to stop shitposting, I know it will be hard for you though it will be worth the effort.

[waywardgs]

Funny, but no. Please try to stop shitposting, I know it will be hard for you though it will be worth the effort.

http://ohmagichour.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/16/2014/07/Here-There-Be-Monsters.jpg

[~Rocktar~]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10472718_591622944304875_8368619682752781699_n.jpg ?oh=b3723e8390b0b616cbb87577b27d2f1f&oe=5508892C&__gda__=1426473108_3719b4e54a9205a17859415ec938b78 b

[Jarvan]

No, they wouldn't. That's why we have defense. It takes very little intelligence to realize we cannot rid the world of threats. It takes a great deal of stupidity to believe we can. It takes naivety to believe that offensive force throughout the world makes us any safer here at home. Keep smoking the crack, dude.

Actually.. it would be possible to rid the world of threats, it just wouldn't be humane.

Know what you call a country on a constant defensive war?

Goner.

You can't win a war defensively. No one ever has, or will. Granted no one will ever win a war on terror until one of 3 things happen. All mankind is dead... we all wake up and realize this was a complex simulation done by Sid Meier for a new game... or human nature changes.

Guess which is the only likely one to happen?

It's possible that if we had never ever gotten involved with middle east politics, we wouldn't have been nor be a target of them. But... not likely. They would have FOUND a reason to attack us.

[Wrathbringer]

Actually.. it would be possible to rid the world of threats, it just wouldn't be humane.

Know what you call a country on a constant defensive war?

Goner.

You can't win a war defensively. No one ever has, or will. Granted no one will ever win a war on terror until one of 3 things happen. All mankind is dead... we all wake up and realize this was a complex simulation done by Sid Meier for a new game... or human nature changes.

Guess which is the only likely one to happen?

It's possible that if we had never ever gotten involved with middle east politics, we wouldn't have been nor be a target of them. But... not likely. They would have FOUND a reason to attack us.

<clown facepalm>

[Latrinsorm]

re: ~Rocktar~

My top concern is that we tortured innocent people. I'll give kutter and Orbstar this much: even though their excuses for this are openly sociopathic they are at least internally consistent.

Even putting that aside, though, I don't see how your hilariously Papyrus-fonted angst makes sense. Is it your contention that liberal pricks endorsed that beheading? If they condemned it, why shouldn't they condemn other instances of brutality? If you condemned it, why don't you?

[ClydeR]

re: ~Rocktar~

My top concern is that we tortured innocent people.

Isn't the issue really whether or not individuals should be compelled to sacrifice for the greater good? And some of these so-called "innocent" people actually confessed to being terrorists before we discovered that they were lying about it. Lying to the CIA is a crime by itself.


CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you, what do you say to Gul Rahman, what do you say to Sulaiman Abdula, what do you say to Khalid al-Masri? All three of these folks were detained, they had these interrogation techniques used on them. They eventually were found to be innocent. They were released, no apologies, nothing. What do we owe them?

DICK CHENEY:

Well--

CHUCK TODD:

I mean, let me go to Gul Rahman. He was chained to the wall of his cell, doused with water, froze to death in C.I.A. custody. And it turned out it was a case of mistaken identity.

DICK CHENEY:

--right. But the problem I had is with the folks that we did release that end up back on the battlefield. Of the 600 and some people who were released out of Guantanamo, 30% roughly ended up back on the battlefield. Today we're very concerned about ISIS. Terrible new terrorist organization.

It is headed by named Baghdadi. Baghdadi was in the custody of the U.S. military in Iraq in Camp Bucca. He was let go and now he's out leading the terror attack against the United States. I'm more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than I am with a few that, in fact, were innocent.

CHUCK TODD:

25% of the detainees though, 25% turned out to be innocent. They were released.

DICK CHENEY:

Where are you going to draw the line, Chuck? How are--

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I'm asking you.

DICK CHENEY:

--you going to know?

(OVERTALK)

CHUCK TODD:

Is that too high? You're okay with that margin for error?

DICK CHENEY:

I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. And our objective is to get the guys who did 9/11 and it is to avoid another attack against the United States. I was prepared and we did. We got authorizing from the president and authorization from the Justice Department to go forward with the program. It worked. It worked now for 13 years.

We've avoided another mass casualty attack against the United States. And we did capture Bin Laden. We did capture an awful lot of the senior guys at Al Qaeda who were responsible for that attack on 9/11. I'd do it again in a minute.

More... (http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-december-14-2014-n268181)

[Berubeo21]

I'd love for the media to release a report of all the mangled men And women that have been flown to bethesda the last ten years. People will learn to give a lot less fucks about pouring water of towel covered Muj faces...

[Thondalar]

Hate to say it, but Cheney has a point. We have captured/killed pretty much everyone involved, including Mr. Laden himself. Do the ends justify the means? That's a matter of perspective.

If you ask the average armchair activist with no direct skin in the game, they would say hell no! You can't do these barbaric things!

If you ask the widow of anyone who died on 9/11, they would say fuck it, roast every last one of them over the coals of hell until vengeance is served.

Naturally there are exceptions to every rule, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the above would hold true in the vast majority of individual cases.

Personally, I would like for everyone on the planet to be courteous and respectful and considerate. I would absolutely love a world with no hate, or bias, or ignorance.

I firmly...very firmly...believe that the US government should uphold it's end of our bargain with them, as citizens...and I believe that we should, as a nation both in citizens and government deal with citizens of other nations as we would our own....UNTIL the time THEY make that impossible. After that, all bets are off. Reap what you sow.

[Androidpk]

>Hate to say it, but Cheney has a point. We have captured/killed pretty much everyone involved, including Mr. Laden himself. Do the ends justify the means? That's a matter of perspective.

And in the process have created more terrorists that want to attack us.

[waywardgs]

>Hate to say it, but Cheney has a point. We have captured/killed pretty much everyone involved, including Mr. Laden himself. Do the ends justify the means? That's a matter of perspective.

And in the process have created more terrorists that want to attack us.

Not to mention that torture just gets you gibberish- more misinformation than anything.

Hell, if it actually worked? Maybe. But it doesn't.

[Fallen]

How can we claim any sort of high ground if we start openly torturing people, especially those that we can't even bring charges against afterwards? Are we so weak as a nation we must resort to torture to win? Yet we want to claim superiority over the terrorists. I really..truly don't believe we should adopt the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality against the likes of Al-Qaeda, ISIS, The Taliban, etc.

[Warriorbird]

How can we claim any sort of high ground if we start openly torturing people, especially those that we can't even bring charges against afterwards? Are we so weak as a nation we must resort to torture to win? Yet we want to claim superiority over the terrorists. I really..truly don't believe we should adopt the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality against the likes of Al-Qaeda, ISIS, The Taliban, etc.

I don't have such strong morals. If I thought it worked, I would support it.

It both simultaneously doesn't work and gives the enemy strength.

[Archigeek]

Hate to say it, but Cheney has a point. We have captured/killed pretty much everyone involved, including Mr. Laden himself. Do the ends justify the means? That's a matter of perspective.

If you ask the average armchair activist with no direct skin in the game, they would say hell no! You can't do these barbaric things!

If you ask the widow of anyone who died on 9/11, they would say fuck it, roast every last one of them over the coals of hell until vengeance is served.

Naturally there are exceptions to every rule, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the above would hold true in the vast majority of individual cases.

Personally, I would like for everyone on the planet to be courteous and respectful and considerate. I would absolutely love a world with no hate, or bias, or ignorance.

I firmly...very firmly...believe that the US government should uphold it's end of our bargain with them, as citizens...and I believe that we should, as a nation both in citizens and government deal with citizens of other nations as we would our own....UNTIL the time THEY make that impossible. After that, all bets are off. Reap what you sow.

The problem is, who the hell are "they"?

With 25% of the people we tortured being innocent, and much of the intel received from the rest of them being suspect, well that's a pretty shitty standard for success. And shitty standards for success probably are going to mean more dead Americans than we would have had otherwise. This "this doesn't compare to the attack on 9/11" argument is absolute bullshit, because it isn't some kind of game where every person we torture is guilty and gives us good intel as a result. The truth is that this was a bad way of going about trying to get the info we needed, and put a lot of lives in danger as a result.

We're a better country than this

[Jarvan]

This is one of those divides where you will never sway the other person.

I would say most if not all the people on this forum that claim "We should never do it. Period" would sing a different tune if a bomb was strapped to a loved one and we had the bomb maker in custody, and were using regular tactics to try to get a disarm code. Or location of the person with the bomb. Oh, they would claim they wouldn't want anything wrong done... but they would be crying foul if we didn't do all we could.

I also love the people that claim that we never got any good intel from torture. I mean.. it doesn't matter that we CLAIM we did.. they are obviously lying, because it's impossible to get good intel from torturing someone. Yeah, you reach a point with torture where they will say anything to get it to stop. But if they are saying anything.. they are going to give some intel if they have it, if even by mistake. ~NO~ human being is capable of holding out forever. It's just not possible. Maybe the person didn't have any good intel, but they will spill what they know sooner or later. Course.. that depends on how far you are willing to take your tactics. The ones we used? Probably didn't go far enough.

I know one thing.. if it was my family in the cross hairs... I don't care what the government has to do to people to stop it from happening. My family's lives are more important to me then some dirtbag terrorist.

But... maybe some of you put dirtbag terrorists above your family... who knows.

[Warriorbird]

This is one of those divides where you will never sway the other person.

I would say most if not all the people on this forum that claim "We should never do it. Period" would sing a different tune if a bomb was strapped to a loved one and we had the bomb maker in custody, and were using regular tactics to try to get a disarm code. Or location of the person with the bomb. Oh, they would claim they wouldn't want anything wrong done... but they would be crying foul if we didn't do all we could.

I also love the people that claim that we never got any good intel from torture. I mean.. it doesn't matter that we CLAIM we did.. they are obviously lying, because it's impossible to get good intel from torturing someone. Yeah, you reach a point with torture where they will say anything to get it to stop. But if they are saying anything.. they are going to give some intel if they have it, if even by mistake. ~NO~ human being is capable of holding out forever. It's just not possible. Maybe the person didn't have any good intel, but they will spill what they know sooner or later. Course.. that depends on how far you are willing to take your tactics. The ones we used? Probably didn't go far enough.

I know one thing.. if it was my family in the cross hairs... I don't care what the government has to do to people to stop it from happening. My family's lives are more important to me then some dirtbag terrorist.

But... maybe some of you put dirtbag terrorists above your family... who knows.

I understand that all decisions are black and white to you. I'd put my family being located over some possibly terrorist or possibly random cab driver saying absolutely anything he could to make the torture stop. Is your macho power trip more valuable than accurate intelligence?

[Jarvan]

I understand that all decisions are black and white to you. I'd put my family being located over some possibly terrorist or possibly random cab driver saying absolutely anything he could to make the torture stop. Is your macho power trip more valuable than accurate intelligence?

And how exactly are you going to get info from someone already willing to blow them self up for their cause? Ask nicely?

What's YOUR alternative? Keep asking them for 8 hours a day till they tell you? Meanwhile... your family is dead?

And they are not black and white.. this is a VERY grey area. But you know what.. REAL adults deal with grey areas. Not "Torture is bad always never do it". Because.. guess what.. sometimes you HAVE to do bad things to stop worse things from happening.

Welcome to the real world.

Also.. let me guess.. you are against ever killing anyone for any reason at all. Period. Huh?

[waywardgs]

This is one of those divides where you will never sway the other person.

I would say most if not all the people on this forum that claim "We should never do it. Period" would sing a different tune if a bomb was strapped to a loved one and we had the bomb maker in custody, and were using regular tactics to try to get a disarm code. Or location of the person with the bomb. Oh, they would claim they wouldn't want anything wrong done... but they would be crying foul if we didn't do all we could.

I also love the people that claim that we never got any good intel from torture. I mean.. it doesn't matter that we CLAIM we did.. they are obviously lying, because it's impossible to get good intel from torturing someone. Yeah, you reach a point with torture where they will say anything to get it to stop. But if they are saying anything.. they are going to give some intel if they have it, if even by mistake. ~NO~ human being is capable of holding out forever. It's just not possible. Maybe the person didn't have any good intel, but they will spill what they know sooner or later. Course.. that depends on how far you are willing to take your tactics. The ones we used? Probably didn't go far enough.

I know one thing.. if it was my family in the cross hairs... I don't care what the government has to do to people to stop it from happening. My family's lives are more important to me then some dirtbag terrorist.

But... maybe some of you put dirtbag terrorists above your family... who knows.

You watched too much 24.

[Androidpk]

You watched too much 24.

Not to mention ate too many crayons and lead paint chips.

[Warriorbird]

And how exactly are you going to get info from someone already willing to blow them self up for their cause? Ask nicely?

What's YOUR alternative? Keep asking them for 8 hours a day till they tell you? Meanwhile... your family is dead?

And they are not black and white.. this is a VERY grey area. But you know what.. REAL adults deal with grey areas. Not "Torture is bad always never do it". Because.. guess what.. sometimes you HAVE to do bad things to stop worse things from happening.

Welcome to the real world.

Also.. let me guess.. you are against ever killing anyone for any reason at all. Period. Huh?

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of what you're attempting to portray. I'd gleefully have somebody killed if it meant my family would live. I'm not going to want to have the SWAT team or the Seals or what have you charge off in the wrong direction because some dirtbag gave them false info to stop them torturing him though.

Then guess what. Whoops! My family's dead.

There's quite a number of ways to gain information without torture. If this were anything other than your fantasies you could likely think of several.

[waywardgs]

And how exactly are you going to get info from someone already willing to blow them self up for their cause? Ask nicely?

What's YOUR alternative? Keep asking them for 8 hours a day till they tell you? Meanwhile... your family is dead?

And they are not black and white.. this is a VERY grey area. But you know what.. REAL adults deal with grey areas. Not "Torture is bad always never do it". Because.. guess what.. sometimes you HAVE to do bad things to stop worse things from happening.

Welcome to the real world.

Also.. let me guess.. you are against ever killing anyone for any reason at all. Period. Huh?

This is hilarious.

Real adults don't construct silly hypotheticals stitched together from bad Hollywood plot lines and claim they've made a "point."

[Androidpk]

This is hilarious.

Real adults don't construct silly hypotheticals stitched together from bad Hollywood plot lines and claim they've made a "point."

You mean 24​ isn't a documentary?

[Jarvan]

I'm pretty much the exact opposite of what you're attempting to portray. I'd gleefully have somebody killed if it meant my family would live. I'm not going to want to have the SWAT team or the Seals or what have you charge off in the wrong direction because some dirtbag gave them false info to stop them torturing him though.

Then guess what. Whoops! My family's dead.

There's quite a number of ways to gain information without torture. If this were anything other than your fantasies you could likely think of several.

If you really think they sent the Seals or Swat after any little piece of intel, you are even dumber then I thought. Wayward is right tho.. it isn't a movie. They don't get.. "Bin laden is at X address" and send a team that is on standby. But they get leads.


This is hilarious.

Real adults don't construct silly hypotheticals stitched together from bad Hollywood plot lines and claim they've made a "point."

Bad Hollywood plot lines.. you know.. where like the "good guys" "interrogate" the suspect in a room with a light and the guy spills everything for no reason what so ever? Or where they play good cop bad cop, right? or.. maybe they Pretend that his companion already told them everything.. and the person spills the beans...

Which one of us is living in a fantasy land? The person that thinks ~NO~ good intel could EVER come from torture.. or the one thinking that if we can get even a piece of actionable intel it is worth it?

Well.. we already know which you think it is. Funny thing is.. if we HAD a suspect in custody before 9/11 and COULD have gotten intel from them via so called torture.. you would have been against that, right? Yeah I know.. hypothetical situation... but wait.. not really.

[Warriorbird]

If you really think they sent the Seals or Swat after any little piece of intel, you are even dumber then I thought. Wayward is right tho.. it isn't a movie. They don't get.. "Bin laden is at X address" and send a team that is on standby. But they get leads.

You're trying to twist the situation around now that you realize how problematic your hypothetical is. You've set this up as a life and death situation. Do I want to risk my family's one shot on possibly fake information? The answer is no.

[Tenlaar]

I was going to post a 24 meme but somehow I ended up with this instead.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-w3t2GnFR8eA/UCZocz3x0sI/AAAAAAAAFvU/L8VBvlWD0gM/s1600/what-has-been-seen-cannot-be-unseen-mozg-nie-zapomina-wyparcie-mem-grzyb-wyglada-jak.jpg

To stay on topic: Jarvan, stop being a mushroom.

[ZeP]

Well.. we already know which you think it is. Funny thing is.. if we HAD a suspect in custody before 9/11 and COULD have gotten intel from them via so called torture.. you would have been against that, right? Yeah I know.. hypothetical situation... but wait.. not really.

There was a lot of intel before 9/11. I know that I am on a forum of dipshits who cannot believe that because of their previous beliefs, employment, or military involvement that it just cannot be true.

But it becomes more obvious as time goes on.

[ZeP]

Last Supper Hobbit Mage is like 5 foot 4 who looks like he has a mental challenge, no?

[Jarvan]

You're trying to twist the situation around now that you realize how problematic your hypothetical is. You've set this up as a life and death situation. Do I want to risk my family's one shot on possibly fake information? The answer is no.

Like I said asshat, You REALLY think we sent SEALS after every single intel piece? Wait.. of course you do, you are a fucking dipshit.

Your the one trying to turn it around. You act like we twist the guys finger, he screams a name and location, and we send every available resource there thinking that's it. Frankly.. if terrorists had your family strapped with bombs and in a hidden location. I would be MUCH happier knowing the government could use any and all possible methods to save your family. If that meant taking a blow torch and systematically burning off pieces of one of the assholes that did it. Go USA.

Would I Prefer such methods not be used? Yeah, but if they need to be used, use them.

If life was like the movies, we would just inject them with truth serum and that would be that. (That one is for you and Wayward)

[Warriorbird]

Like I said asshat, You REALLY think we sent SEALS after every single intel piece? Wait.. of course you do, you are a fucking dipshit.

Your the one trying to turn it around. You act like we twist the guys finger, he screams a name and location, and we send every available resource there thinking that's it. Frankly.. if terrorists had your family strapped with bombs and in a hidden location. I would be MUCH happier knowing the government could use any and all possible methods to save your family. If that meant taking a blow torch and systematically burning off pieces of one of the assholes that did it. Go USA.

Would I Prefer such methods not be used? Yeah, but if they need to be used, use them.

If life was like the movies, we would just inject them with truth serum and that would be that. (That one is for you and Wayward)

Now you're getting shrill and insulting because you tried to turn your hypothetical down then searched for something desperate to attack in my well reasoned response to your crazy hypothetical. You've shifted to "any and all" methods now because you know your original one was terrible.

What you set up was this mythic idea that the only choice was to torture or not torture and this was an immediate threat to my family.

In that instance I'm still going to want to not torture because I don't want to play into your machismo at the expense of my family's life. If the threat is immediate we could be set on a wild goose chase with the lives of my family on the line. Maybe you're comfortable with that. I'm not.

This isn't about morality. As I've said before I'd gladly kill all sorts of people to make sure my family was safe. It is about what's effective.

[Jarvan]

Now you're getting shrill and insulting because you tried to turn your hypothetical down then searched for something desperate to attack in my well reasoned response to your crazy hypothetical. You've shifted to "any and all" methods now because you know your original one was terrible.

What you set up was this mythic idea that the only choice was to torture or not torture and this was an immediate threat to my family.

In that instance I'm still going to want to not torture because I don't want to play into your machismo at the expense of my family's life. If the threat is immediate we could be set on a wild goose chase with the lives of my family on the line. Maybe you're comfortable with that. I'm not.

This isn't about morality. As I've said before I'd gladly kill all sorts of people to make sure my family was safe. It is about what's effective.

yeah yeah. In a mythical scenario.. you are going to chose to do the "right" thing. We all know this is bullshit, even if you don't want to admit it.

Yeah.. unrealistic scenarios... but more realistic then your "black and white" world you want to live in. It's funny.. you accuse others of looking at it in black and white.. and yet you do the same thing. You would be doing half the stuff to a terrorist yourself if your family was on the line and you were given the chance.

It's funny that you sat torture "Never" works. Course we have proof that it does. But.. go figure. Guess that doesn't count.

I am also still waiting to hear what you think SHOULD be done. But.. I know you won't answer.. cause you can't. Probably ask them nicely.

it's funny.. if regular interrogations worked all the time.. we would have tons of confessions and convictions.

[Wrathbringer]

yeah yeah. In a mythical scenario.. you are going to chose to do the "right" thing. We all know this is bullshit, even if you don't want to admit it.

Yeah.. unrealistic scenarios... but more realistic then your "black and white" world you want to live in. It's funny.. you accuse others of looking at it in black and white.. and yet you do the same thing. You would be doing half the stuff to a terrorist yourself if your family was on the line and you were given the chance.

It's funny that you sat torture "Never" works. Course we have proof that it does. But.. go figure. Guess that doesn't count.

I am also still waiting to hear what you think SHOULD be done. But.. I know you won't answer.. cause you can't. Probably ask them nicely.

it's funny.. if regular interrogations worked all the time.. we would have tons of confessions and convictions.

I agree, Jarvan. Torture is so effective we should institute it at all levels of government and use it against everyone at all times. The stream of perfect intelligence will never stop! It's almost as life saving and humane as nuclear weapons. TORTURE SAVES LIVES (on tv)!!!! Serious question: Do you research anything before posting or just generally wing it with spectacularly stupid BS? I mean, I think I know, but I wanna be sure since you keep talking about all this proof that you're right but refuse to provide.

[Warriorbird]

yeah yeah. In a mythical scenario.. you are going to chose to do the "right" thing. We all know this is bullshit, even if you don't want to admit it.

Yeah.. unrealistic scenarios... but more realistic then your "black and white" world you want to live in. It's funny.. you accuse others of looking at it in black and white.. and yet you do the same thing. You would be doing half the stuff to a terrorist yourself if your family was on the line and you were given the chance.

It's funny that you sat torture "Never" works. Course we have proof that it does. But.. go figure. Guess that doesn't count.

I am also still waiting to hear what you think SHOULD be done. But.. I know you won't answer.. cause you can't. Probably ask them nicely.

it's funny.. if regular interrogations worked all the time.. we would have tons of confessions and convictions.

When did I suggest morality had anything to do with it?

Or that torture "never" worked?

I merely suggested that in the tense situation you set up I'd rather go with something that didn't have such high odds of producing false information.

There's a vast trove of literature on that issue.

Heck, we even have conservative colleges saying torture is a problem.
http://www.cgu.edu/pdffiles/sbos/costanzo_effects_of_interrogation.pdf

[Archigeek]

Torture was a bad idea, and makes us look like a bunch of shitheads.

You might say, well who cares what other people think? But if you don't care what other people think, then you don't care if other people fly planes into our buildings. They don't do it for shits and giggles, they do it because of what they think about us. Why do you want to make it easy for those who would demonize us to the impressionable, who might in turn be willing to strap on explosives and kill themselves in an effort to kill a few Americans?

Our basic mode of operation was to come up with ways to work around the restrictions that our own country was instrumental in putting in place. We tortured in foreign countries, so we wouldn't have to face our own courts. We weaseled around, trying to define torture as something outside the methods we were determined to use, basically trying to use lawyer-ese to justify our shady actions, while ignoring international treaties we had helped to create. We warehoused prisoners outside the US, to avoid US laws, even invented a new name for them so they wouldn't have the rights afforded to them by our own military code of justice. And what did this lead to? Bad intel, torture of some innocents, more people mad at us, and an inability to convict some of the guilty because of what we'd done. Great job fellas. Great job.

How many more terrorists were created, and Americans killed, because of the torture techniques? The answer is not zero, so unless we're willing to trade American lives for terrorist lives on a continuing basis, we need to take a higher road and find a better way.

[Lord Orbstar]

Archigeek nailed it. I concur.

[Latrinsorm]

Isn't the issue really whether or not individuals should be compelled to sacrifice for the greater good? And some of these so-called "innocent" people actually confessed to being terrorists before we discovered that they were lying about it. Lying to the CIA is a crime by itself.That was pretty good.
If you ask the widow of anyone who died on 9/11, they would say fuck it, roast every last one of them over the coals of hell until vengeance is served. Naturally there are exceptions to every rule, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the above would hold true in the vast majority of individual cases.Let's play Preponderance of Evidence! I've got two (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-breitweiser/3-thoughts-on-torture-following-the-release-of-the-ssci-report-on-torture-2014_b_6298792.html) 9/11 widows condemning the torture in unequivocal language: "heinous, brutal, sociopathic, immoral, illegal, evil". Your turn! Let's say vast majority = 75%, that means you need to find six widows endorsing it. (Obviously widowers count too, I'm assuming you meant it in the gender neutral sense.)
I know one thing.. if it was my family in the cross hairs... I don't care what the government has to do to people to stop it from happening. My family's lives are more important to me then some dirtbag terrorist. The problem isn't that you're in the real world and everyone else is in fantasy. The problem is that you don't understand the implications of your own position. The government cannot know that the person they are torturing is guilty, and empirically we know they only get about 3 out of 4 right. The question you should therefore ask yourself is if your family's lives are more important to you than some innocent person's... and then you should realize that your family is "some innocent person" to someone else.

[waywardgs]

Torture was a bad idea, and makes us look like a bunch of shitheads.

You might say, well who cares what other people think? But if you don't care what other people think, then you don't care if other people fly planes into our buildings. They don't do it for shits and giggles, they do it because of what they think about us. Why do you want to make it easy for those who would demonize us to the impressionable, who might in turn be willing to strap on explosives and kill themselves in an effort to kill a few Americans?

Our basic mode of operation was to come up with ways to work around the restrictions that our own country was instrumental in putting in place. We tortured in foreign countries, so we wouldn't have to face our own courts. We weaseled around, trying to define torture as something outside the methods we were determined to use, basically trying to use lawyer-ese to justify our shady actions, while ignoring international treaties we had helped to create. We warehoused prisoners outside the US, to avoid US laws, even invented a new name for them so they wouldn't have the rights afforded to them by our own military code of justice. And what did this lead to? Bad intel, torture of some innocents, more people mad at us, and an inability to convict some of the guilty because of what we'd done. Great job fellas. Great job.

How many more terrorists were created, and Americans killed, because of the torture techniques? The answer is not zero, so unless we're willing to trade American lives for terrorist lives on a continuing basis, we need to take a higher road and find a better way.

But but ticking time bombs and disarm codes and your family is going to be blown to bits!!!!!! Jack Bauer, we need you!!!

[Tenlaar]

There's only one way to save your family now.


http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Jack_8a91bc_303748.jpg

[Thondalar]

Let's play Preponderance of Evidence! I've got two (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kristen-breitweiser/3-thoughts-on-torture-following-the-release-of-the-ssci-report-on-torture-2014_b_6298792.html) 9/11 widows condemning the torture in unequivocal language: "heinous, brutal, sociopathic, immoral, illegal, evil". Your turn! Let's say vast majority = 75%, that means you need to find six widows endorsing it. (Obviously widowers count too, I'm assuming you meant it in the gender neutral sense.)

Lol.

[Thondalar]

How many more terrorists were created, and Americans killed, because of the torture techniques? The answer is not zero, so unless we're willing to trade American lives for terrorist lives on a continuing basis, we need to take a higher road and find a better way.

Here's a little clue...these people have hated America (and the Christian West as a whole) long before we tortured anybody. They will continue to hate America until one of us is destroyed. The root of the hatred goes far beyond any individual action taken by either side.

How many lives were saved because of the torture techniques? You ask how many were lost because of it...unfortunately all of that information is highly classified, and even if it wasn't, there are entirely too many hypotheticals involved in trying to compare the two. It's a fool's errand.

It's also not an all-or-nothing affair...it's not like torture is our only method of intelligence gathering. We're not sitting there going "well, we can either torture him or give him a hand job. Let's flip a coin." Personally, I like keeping all options available.

You lambast the success rate, but don't deny that it has been successful. Therefore, it has a place.

This gibberish about "being better than that" or "not stooping to their level" is just asinine. It's the fantasies of children. Barbarians only understand barbarism; anything less is a perceived weakness. Predators prey on the weak. You think torturing them creates more terrorists? Try giving them a flower and a hug.

[Ker_Thwap]

I have a hard time deciding which side of this issue get to claim the "what if" votes.

I largely agree with Archigeek, but I'd just add that stopping torture by itself hasn't made the world love us a single bit more. Maybe because we replaced torture with drone strikes?

I'm jaded enough to think that the countries/religions/factions of the world will never universally love us, no matter what actions we take, or how nicely and politely we treat them. I think the "if we were only nicer" argument is silly.

[Latrinsorm]

I have a hard time deciding which side of this issue get to claim the "what if" votes.

I largely agree with Archigeek, but I'd just add that stopping torture by itself hasn't made the world love us a single bit more. Maybe because we replaced torture with drone strikes?

I'm jaded enough to think that the countries/religions/factions of the world will never universally love us, no matter what actions we take, or how nicely and politely we treat them. I think the "if we were only nicer" argument is silly.It's not a question of universal love. It's a question of optimization. Thondalar's hard-bitten arithmetic intimates that giving people a flower will further encourage them to be terrorists, and it is only through fear and intimidation that we can be safe. This is world-weary and cynical, and people unfortunately mistake this for realistic and practical, so Thondalar feels no need to hard-source his arithmetic. As it turns out, though, giving people flour (and other foodstuffs) actually does make them our friends. The expression isn't "crucifixion and circuses", the Marshall Plan worked, hungry people don't stay hungry for long but full people watch football and are satisfied with whining now and then. This is very frustrating for the hard-bitten ones, because they are in truth romantics. They yearn for millennial conflicts (thus their ignoring that Islam hasn't been around for millennia). They yearn for eternal enmities, bitter rivalries that can never be compromised (thus their ignoring that religions in the Middle East were jolly good pals for centuries).

When the truth is boring, they believe the legend. I respectfully (and to be fair boringly) submit that this is not a worthwhile standard of proof.

[Ker_Thwap]

It's not a question of universal love. It's a question of optimization. Thondalar's hard-bitten arithmetic intimates that giving people a flower will further encourage them to be terrorists, and it is only through fear and intimidation that we can be safe. This is world-weary and cynical, and people unfortunately mistake this for realistic and practical, so Thondalar feels no need to hard-source his arithmetic. As it turns out, though, giving people flour (and other foodstuffs) actually does make them our friends. The expression isn't "crucifixion and circuses", the Marshall Plan worked, hungry people don't stay hungry for long but full people watch football and are satisfied with whining now and then. This is very frustrating for the hard-bitten ones, because they are in truth romantics. They yearn for millennial conflicts (thus their ignoring that Islam hasn't been around for millennia). They yearn for eternal enmities, bitter rivalries that can never be compromised (thus their ignoring that religions in the Middle East were jolly good pals for centuries).

When the truth is boring, they believe the legend. I respectfully (and to be fair boringly) submit that this is not a worthwhile standard of proof.

I don't think I'm deep enough in Thondalar's mind to know exactly how he views the world, so I'll just leave that topic alone. I like the idea of optimization, as I consider myself a pragmatist in most things. It still comes down to knowing your audience. You can hand certain people bread, at certain times, and they'll be grateful and be your lifelong friend. You can hand other people bread, and they'll decide that you're trying to buy their affection with your filthy bread and loose morals, and get even more annoyed with you because you don't like the same things that they like. It's not stable, it doesn't have to be rational. There are people like Thondalar (at least your vision of him) in other countries who will not be appeased as well.

This is where I preach moderation, and piss off both sides. The answer is somewhere in the middle. When you meet a salt water crocodile, hugging it won't make it not want to eat you. Likewise, when meet a puppy dog, kicking it won't make it more faithful to you. Humans don't come in a single easily read disposition. Sometimes it's great to co-exist with your neighbor and try to be friends, other times it's best to just put up a giant fence and keep away from each other.

[Jarvan]

Torture was a bad idea, and makes us look like a bunch of shitheads.

You might say, well who cares what other people think? But if you don't care what other people think, then you don't care if other people fly planes into our buildings. They don't do it for shits and giggles, they do it because of what they think about us. Why do you want to make it easy for those who would demonize us to the impressionable, who might in turn be willing to strap on explosives and kill themselves in an effort to kill a few Americans?

Our basic mode of operation was to come up with ways to work around the restrictions that our own country was instrumental in putting in place. We tortured in foreign countries, so we wouldn't have to face our own courts. We weaseled around, trying to define torture as something outside the methods we were determined to use, basically trying to use lawyer-ese to justify our shady actions, while ignoring international treaties we had helped to create. We warehoused prisoners outside the US, to avoid US laws, even invented a new name for them so they wouldn't have the rights afforded to them by our own military code of justice. And what did this lead to? Bad intel, torture of some innocents, more people mad at us, and an inability to convict some of the guilty because of what we'd done. Great job fellas. Great job.

How many more terrorists were created, and Americans killed, because of the torture techniques? The answer is not zero, so unless we're willing to trade American lives for terrorist lives on a continuing basis, we need to take a higher road and find a better way.

Torture is a last chance, last case scenario. And should be. Also.. I am sorry, I really don't consider what they did even torture. What OUR POW's went through in Korea/Vietnam, that was torture. We played loud music.. we made it so they couldn't sleep, and water boarding, while traumatic... guess what.. these people KNEW they wouldn't die. If there were "grades" of torture, we were in the church choir/boy scout level. Hell, even in our "torture" we held ourselves to a higher standard then our enemies. How many of our captives were beheaded?

There has to be a last resort... if your "Last Resort" is asking again in a stern voice... you lose.

[Androidpk]

Torture is a last chance, last case scenario. And should be. Also.. I am sorry, I really don't consider what they did even torture. What OUR POW's went through in Korea/Vietnam, that was torture. We played loud music.. we made it so they couldn't sleep, and water boarding, while traumatic... guess what.. these people KNEW they wouldn't die. If there were "grades" of torture, we were in the church choir/boy scout level. Hell, even in our "torture" we held ourselves to a higher standard then our enemies. How many of our captives were beheaded?

There has to be a last resort... if your "Last Resort" is asking again in a stern voice... you lose.

Thank god we don't have morons like you in charge of anything important.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't think I'm deep enough in Thondalar's mind to know exactly how he views the world, so I'll just leave that topic alone. I like the idea of optimization, as I consider myself a pragmatist in most things. It still comes down to knowing your audience. You can hand certain people bread, at certain times, and they'll be grateful and be your lifelong friend. You can hand other people bread, and they'll decide that you're trying to buy their affection with your filthy bread and loose morals, and get even more annoyed with you because you don't like the same things that they like. It's not stable, it doesn't have to be rational. There are people like Thondalar (at least your vision of him) in other countries who will not be appeased as well.

This is where I preach moderation, and piss off both sides. The answer is somewhere in the middle. When you meet a salt water crocodile, hugging it won't make it not want to eat you. Likewise, when meet a puppy dog, kicking it won't make it more faithful to you. Humans don't come in a single easily read disposition. Sometimes it's great to co-exist with your neighbor and try to be friends, other times it's best to just put up a giant fence and keep away from each other.I trust you see the humor in saying "this fellow white 30something American has posted thousands of statements for me to read, but he's indecipherable, now here's how people halfway across the world I've never interacted with will respond so here's how we should treat them". Now to your specific points:

1. Humans aren't crocodiles or puppies (or scorpions or bears). They're humans. From this common ground of biology, we can make reasonable predictions of behavior.

2. As it turns out, hungry enough groups of people will knock down walls, will cross mine fields, will do anything to feed themselves and their families. Will they want to be friends? Maybe, maybe not, but who said that was the goal? The goal was to not actively be enemies, and the people who will be our enemies no matter what can't get anything done without a larger support base. Remove starvation, and you starve terror.

3. "The answer is somewhere in the middle" is a very well-received piece of rhetoric, but this does not make it necessarily true. This is one of those times where it is not. I can cite precedent throughout history for my way being effective, and for barbarism being ineffective. You can't cite a single case where "a giant fence" worked, although I'm sure someone will post a picture of the Great Wall of China and when I point out that the Mongols came through it and captured the Chinese Emperor it'll be me being a troll somehow.

In conclusion: sheesh!

[Latrinsorm]

Muslims commit acts of savagery against Americans, many of whom were surely innocent. Americans ask, where is the outcry from the supposed moderate Muslims?

Americans commit acts of savagery against Muslims, many of whom were surely innocent. Americans declare that they had it coming.