Obama empirically better President than Reagan

[Keller]

Facts are facts. Enjoy your Wednesday, everyone.

Obama Outperforms Reagan On Jobs, Growth And Investing
The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) today issued America’s latest jobs report covering August. And it’s a disappointment. The economy created an additional 142,000 jobs last month (http://online.wsj.com/articles/jobs-report-u-s-payrolls-climb-142-000-short-of-expectations-1409920448). After six consecutive months over 200,000, most pundits expected the string to continue, including ADP which just yesterday said 204,000 jobs were created in August (http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2014/09/04/adp-says-private-sector-added-204k-jobs-in-august-other-data-suggests-slight-slowdown-in-small-business-hiring/).

One month variation does not change a trend
Even though the plus-200,000 monthly string was broken (unless revised upward at a future date,) unemployment did continue to decline and is now reported at only 6.1%. Jobless claims were just over 300,000; lowest since 2007. Despite the lower than expected August jobs number, America will create about 2.5 million new jobs in 2014.
And that is great news.
Back in May, 2013 (15 months ago) the Dow was out of its recession doldrums and hitting new highs. I asked readers if Obama could, economically, be the best modern President (http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/05/16/economically-could-obama-be-americas-best-president/)? Through discussion of that question, the number one issue raised by readers was whether the stock market was a good economic barometer for judging “best.” Many complained that the measure they were watching was jobs – and that too many people were still looking for work.
To put this week’s jobs report in economic perspective I reached out to Bob Deitrick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Deitrick), CEO of Polaris Financial Partners (http://www.polarisfinancial.net/) and author of Bulls, Bears and the Ballot Box (http://www.amazon.com/Bulls-Bears-Ballot-Box-Performance/dp/1599322889) (which I profiled in October, 2012 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/10/want-a-better-economy-history-says-vote-democrat/) just before the election) for some explanation. Since then Polaris’ investor newsletters have consistently been the best predictor of economic performance. Better than all the major investment houses. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/01/15/president-obamas-miracle-market-and-why-wall-street-forecasters-blew-their-2013-predictions/)

This is the best private sector jobs creation performance in American history


Bob Deitrick: ”President Reagan has long been considered the best modern economic President. So we compared his performance dealing with the oil-induced recession of the 1980s with that of President Obama and his performance during this ‘Great Recession.’
“As this unemployment chart shows, President Obama’s job creation kept unemployment from peaking at as high a level as President Reagan, and promoted people into the workforce faster than President Reagan.
“President Obama has achieved a 6.1% unemployment rate in his sixth year, fully one year faster than President Reagan did. At this point in his presidency, President Reagan was still struggling with 7.1% unemployment, and he did not reach into the mid-low 6% range for another full year (http://www.multpl.com/unemployment/table?f=m). So, despite today’s number, the Obama administration has still done considerably better at job creating and reducing unemployment than did the Reagan administration.
“We forecast unemployment will fall to around 5.4% by summer, 2015. A rate President Reagan was unable to achieve during his two terms.”

What about the Labor Participation Rate?
Much has been made about the poor results of the labor participation rate, which has shown more stubborn recalcitrance as this rate remains higher even as jobs have grown.

Deitrick: “The labor participation rate adds in jobless part time workers and those in marginal work situations with those seeking full time work. This is not a “hidden” unemployment. It is a measuretracked since 1900 (http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/02/broader-unemployment-rates-going-back.html) and called ‘U6.’ today by the BLS. (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/u3-versus-u6/)
“As this chart shows, the difference between reported unemployment and all unemployment – including those on the fringe of the workforce – has remained pretty constant since 1994.

“Labor participation is affected much less by short-term job creation, and much more by long-term demographic trends. As this chart from the BLS shows (http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet), as the Baby Boomers entered the workforce and societal acceptance of women working changed, labor participation grew.
“Now that ‘Boomers’ are retiring we are seeing the percentage of those seeking employment decline. This has nothing to do with job availability, and everything to do with a highly predictable aging demographic.
“What’s now clear is that the Obama administration policies have outperformed the Reagan administration policies for job creation and unemployment reduction. Even though Reagan had the benefit of a growing Boomer class to ignite economic growth, while Obama has been forced to deal with a retiring workforce developing special needs. During the eight years preceding Obama there was a net reduction in jobs in America. We now are rapidly moving toward higher, sustainable jobs growth.”
Economic growth, including manufacturing, is driving jobs
When President Obama took office America was gripped in an offshoring boom, started years earlier, pushing jobs to the developing world. Manufacturing was declining in America, and plants were closing across the nation.
This week the Institute for Supply Management (ISM) released its manufacturing report, and it surprised nearly everyone. The latest Purchasing Managers Index (PMI) (http://www.ism.ws/ismreport/mfgrob.cfm)scored 59, two points higher than July and about that much higher than prognosticators expected. This represents 63 straight months of economic expansion, and 25 consecutive months of manufacturing expansion.
New orders were up 3.3 points to 66.7, with 15 consecutive months of improvement and reaching the highest level since April, 2004 – five years prior to Obama becoming President. Not surprisingly, this economic growth provided for 14 consecutive months of improvement in the employment index. Meaning that the “grass roots” economy made its turn for the better just as the DJIA was reaching those highs back in 2013 – demonstrating that index is still the leading indicator for jobs that it has famously always been.
As the last 15 months have proven, jobs and economy are improving, and investors are benefiting
The stock market has converted the long-term growth in jobs and GDP into additional gains for investors. Recently the S&P has crested 2,000 – reaching new all time highs. Gains made by investors earlier in the Obama administration have further grown, helping businesses raise capital and improving the nest eggs of almost all Americans. And laying the foundation for recent, and prolonged job growth.
Deitrick: ”While most Americans think they are not involved with the stock market, truthfully they are. Via their 401K, pension plan and employer savings accounts 2/3 of Americans have a clear vested interest in stock performance.
“As this chart shows, over the first 67 months of their presidencies there is a clear “winner” from an investor’s viewpoint. A dollar invested when Reagan assumed the presidency would have yielded a staggering 190% return. Such returns were unheard of prior to his leadership.
“However, it is undeniable that President Obama has surpassed the previous president. Investors have gained a remarkable 220% over the last 5.5 years! This level of investor growth is unprecedented by any administration, and has proven quite beneficial for everyone.
“In 2009, with pension funds underfunded and most private retirement accounts savaged by the financial meltdown and Wall Street losses, Boomers and Seniors were resigned to never retiring. The nest egg appeared gone, leaving the ‘chickens’ to keep working. But now that the coffers have been reloaded increasingly people age 55 – 70 are happily discovering they can quit their old jobs and spend time with family, relax, enjoy hobbies or start new at-home businesses from their laptops or tablets. It is due to a skyrocketing stock market that people can now pursue these dreams and reduce the labor participation rates for ‘better pastures.”

Where myth meets reality

There is another election in just eight weeks. Statistics will be bandied about. Monthly data points will be hotly contested. There will be a lot of rhetoric by candidates on all sides. But, understanding the prevailing trends is critical. Recognizing that first the economy, then the stock market and now jobs are all trending upward is important – even as all 3 measures will have short-term disappointments.
There are a lot of reasons voters elect a candidate. Jobs and the economy are just one category of factors. But, for those who place a high priority on jobs, economic performance and the markets the data clearly demonstrates which presidential administration has performed best. And shows a very clear trend one can expect to continue into 2015.
Economically, President Obama’s administration has outperformed President Reagan’s in all commonly watched categories. Simultaneously the current administration has reduced the deficit, which skyrocketed under Reagan. Additionally, Obama has reduced federal employment, which grew under Reagan (especially when including military personnel,) and truly delivered a “smaller government.” Additionally, the current administration has kept inflation low, even during extreme international upheaval, failure of foreign economies (Greece) and a dramatic slowdown in the European economy (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-05/eu-reduces-euro-growth-forecast-as-inflation-seen-slower.html).




http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/09/05/obama-outperforms-reagan-on-jobs-growth-and-investing/

[Johnny Five]

Facts are Facts: Once people stop actively looking for jobs they are no longer considered Unemployed so they drop off that stat list. :)

[Keller]

Barrack Obama, upon hearing the news that he was a better President than Ronald Reagan:

http://i.imgur.com/k0Xygbv.gif

[Tgo01]

Reagan personally brought down the Soviet Union with his stern glance. The world has become a much more dangerous place with terrorists running the show in several countries under Obama's watch while he was too busy playing golf.

[Keller]

Obama killed Osama, ended the war in Iraq, fixed the financial debacle left by Bush, and was magnanimous enough to let ISIS develop to leave something for Hillary to do next term.

Meanwhile, Reagan's destabilization of eastern Europe has led to multiple wars and the widespread proliferation of terrorism. And don't get me started on the war on drugs, which has resulted in multi-generational social deficits as non-violent offenders are punished for their entrepreneurial spirit.

Trickle down for what

[Tgo01]

And don't get me started on the war on drugs, which has resulted in multi-generational social deficits as non-violent offenders are punished for their entrepreneurial spirit.

I thought Nixon "started" the war on drugs?

Isn't Obama the one throwing people in jail and closing down shops in states where it's legal to do this shit?

[Keller]

Is he playing golf or arresting people?

Make up your mind, Tgo01.

[Tgo01]

Is he playing golf or arresting people?

Make up your mind, Tgo01.

He's arresting people on his golf courses.

[Keller]

Obama becomes the best President in the last 70 years and builds a real estate empire simultaneously? All while playing Batman and making vigilante arrests?

Someone needs to write a superhero comic book about this [strikethough]man[/strikethrough] legend.

[Warriorbird]

Reagan personally brought down the Soviet Union with his stern glance. The world has become a much more dangerous place with terrorists running the show in several countries under Obama's watch while he was too busy playing golf.

Who did we give weapons and money to under Reagan again? "I don't remember..."

[Latrinsorm]

He's arresting people on his golf courses.I give marijuana reefer addicts a lot of guff, but I'll tip my hat to their selling greens on the greens.
Facts are Facts: Once people stop actively looking for jobs they are no longer considered Unemployed so they drop off that stat list.The article explicitly addresses this. Ironically, your accusation that they did not in the hopes that that would undermine their position has only undermined your own.

[Wrathbringer]

Facts are facts. Enjoy your Wednesday, everyone.

Obama Outperforms Reagan On Jobs, Growth And Investing
The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) today issued America’s latest jobs report covering August. And it’s a disappointment. The economy created an additional 142,000 jobs last month (http://online.wsj.com/articles/jobs-report-u-s-payrolls-climb-142-000-short-of-expectations-1409920448). After six consecutive months over 200,000, most pundits expected the string to continue, including ADP which just yesterday said 204,000 jobs were created in August (http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2014/09/04/adp-says-private-sector-added-204k-jobs-in-august-other-data-suggests-slight-slowdown-in-small-business-hiring/).

One month variation does not change a trend
Even though the plus-200,000 monthly string was broken (unless revised upward at a future date,) unemployment did continue to decline and is now reported at only 6.1%. Jobless claims were just over 300,000; lowest since 2007. Despite the lower than expected August jobs number, America will create about 2.5 million new jobs in 2014.
And that is great news.
Back in May, 2013 (15 months ago) the Dow was out of its recession doldrums and hitting new highs. I asked readers if Obama could, economically, be the best modern President (http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/05/16/economically-could-obama-be-americas-best-president/)? Through discussion of that question, the number one issue raised by readers was whether the stock market was a good economic barometer for judging “best.” Many complained that the measure they were watching was jobs – and that too many people were still looking for work.
To put this week’s jobs report in economic perspective I reached out to Bob Deitrick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Deitrick), CEO of Polaris Financial Partners (http://www.polarisfinancial.net/) and author of Bulls, Bears and the Ballot Box (http://www.amazon.com/Bulls-Bears-Ballot-Box-Performance/dp/1599322889) (which I profiled in October, 2012 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2012/10/10/want-a-better-economy-history-says-vote-democrat/) just before the election) for some explanation. Since then Polaris’ investor newsletters have consistently been the best predictor of economic performance. Better than all the major investment houses. (http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/01/15/president-obamas-miracle-market-and-why-wall-street-forecasters-blew-their-2013-predictions/)

This is the best private sector jobs creation performance in American history


Bob Deitrick: ”President Reagan has long been considered the best modern economic President. So we compared his performance dealing with the oil-induced recession of the 1980s with that of President Obama and his performance during this ‘Great Recession.’
“As this unemployment chart shows, President Obama’s job creation kept unemployment from peaking at as high a level as President Reagan, and promoted people into the workforce faster than President Reagan.
“President Obama has achieved a 6.1% unemployment rate in his sixth year, fully one year faster than President Reagan did. At this point in his presidency, President Reagan was still struggling with 7.1% unemployment, and he did not reach into the mid-low 6% range for another full year (http://www.multpl.com/unemployment/table?f=m). So, despite today’s number, the Obama administration has still done considerably better at job creating and reducing unemployment than did the Reagan administration.
“We forecast unemployment will fall to around 5.4% by summer, 2015. A rate President Reagan was unable to achieve during his two terms.”

What about the Labor Participation Rate?
Much has been made about the poor results of the labor participation rate, which has shown more stubborn recalcitrance as this rate remains higher even as jobs have grown.

Deitrick: “The labor participation rate adds in jobless part time workers and those in marginal work situations with those seeking full time work. This is not a “hidden” unemployment. It is a measuretracked since 1900 (http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/02/broader-unemployment-rates-going-back.html) and called ‘U6.’ today by the BLS. (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/u3-versus-u6/)
“As this chart shows, the difference between reported unemployment and all unemployment – including those on the fringe of the workforce – has remained pretty constant since 1994.

“Labor participation is affected much less by short-term job creation, and much more by long-term demographic trends. As this chart from the BLS shows (http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet), as the Baby Boomers entered the workforce and societal acceptance of women working changed, labor participation grew.
“Now that ‘Boomers’ are retiring we are seeing the percentage of those seeking employment decline. This has nothing to do with job availability, and everything to do with a highly predictable aging demographic.
“What’s now clear is that the Obama administration policies have outperformed the Reagan administration policies for job creation and unemployment reduction. Even though Reagan had the benefit of a growing Boomer class to ignite economic growth, while Obama has been forced to deal with a retiring workforce developing special needs. During the eight years preceding Obama there was a net reduction in jobs in America. We now are rapidly moving toward higher, sustainable jobs growth.”
Economic growth, including manufacturing, is driving jobs
When President Obama took office America was gripped in an offshoring boom, started years earlier, pushing jobs to the developing world. Manufacturing was declining in America, and plants were closing across the nation.
This week the Institute for Supply Management (ISM) released its manufacturing report, and it surprised nearly everyone. The latest Purchasing Managers Index (PMI) (http://www.ism.ws/ismreport/mfgrob.cfm)scored 59, two points higher than July and about that much higher than prognosticators expected. This represents 63 straight months of economic expansion, and 25 consecutive months of manufacturing expansion.
New orders were up 3.3 points to 66.7, with 15 consecutive months of improvement and reaching the highest level since April, 2004 – five years prior to Obama becoming President. Not surprisingly, this economic growth provided for 14 consecutive months of improvement in the employment index. Meaning that the “grass roots” economy made its turn for the better just as the DJIA was reaching those highs back in 2013 – demonstrating that index is still the leading indicator for jobs that it has famously always been.
As the last 15 months have proven, jobs and economy are improving, and investors are benefiting
The stock market has converted the long-term growth in jobs and GDP into additional gains for investors. Recently the S&P has crested 2,000 – reaching new all time highs. Gains made by investors earlier in the Obama administration have further grown, helping businesses raise capital and improving the nest eggs of almost all Americans. And laying the foundation for recent, and prolonged job growth.
Deitrick: ”While most Americans think they are not involved with the stock market, truthfully they are. Via their 401K, pension plan and employer savings accounts 2/3 of Americans have a clear vested interest in stock performance.
“As this chart shows, over the first 67 months of their presidencies there is a clear “winner” from an investor’s viewpoint. A dollar invested when Reagan assumed the presidency would have yielded a staggering 190% return. Such returns were unheard of prior to his leadership.
“However, it is undeniable that President Obama has surpassed the previous president. Investors have gained a remarkable 220% over the last 5.5 years! This level of investor growth is unprecedented by any administration, and has proven quite beneficial for everyone.
“In 2009, with pension funds underfunded and most private retirement accounts savaged by the financial meltdown and Wall Street losses, Boomers and Seniors were resigned to never retiring. The nest egg appeared gone, leaving the ‘chickens’ to keep working. But now that the coffers have been reloaded increasingly people age 55 – 70 are happily discovering they can quit their old jobs and spend time with family, relax, enjoy hobbies or start new at-home businesses from their laptops or tablets. It is due to a skyrocketing stock market that people can now pursue these dreams and reduce the labor participation rates for ‘better pastures.”

Where myth meets reality

There is another election in just eight weeks. Statistics will be bandied about. Monthly data points will be hotly contested. There will be a lot of rhetoric by candidates on all sides. But, understanding the prevailing trends is critical. Recognizing that first the economy, then the stock market and now jobs are all trending upward is important – even as all 3 measures will have short-term disappointments.
There are a lot of reasons voters elect a candidate. Jobs and the economy are just one category of factors. But, for those who place a high priority on jobs, economic performance and the markets the data clearly demonstrates which presidential administration has performed best. And shows a very clear trend one can expect to continue into 2015.
Economically, President Obama’s administration has outperformed President Reagan’s in all commonly watched categories. Simultaneously the current administration has reduced the deficit, which skyrocketed under Reagan. Additionally, Obama has reduced federal employment, which grew under Reagan (especially when including military personnel,) and truly delivered a “smaller government.” Additionally, the current administration has kept inflation low, even during extreme international upheaval, failure of foreign economies (Greece) and a dramatic slowdown in the European economy (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-05/eu-reduces-euro-growth-forecast-as-inflation-seen-slower.html).




http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2014/09/05/obama-outperforms-reagan-on-jobs-growth-and-investing/

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-znOcr60b3po/T74ErGsQy4I/AAAAAAAAHVY/XXyhAQmfIdQ/s1600/Clown+Car.gif

[Gelston]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbLD2JyFAlE

[Thondalar]

I'm sorry, but what was Obama's exact role in all of this? I mean I get it, he's the figurehead, he gets the blame and the praise, but quite frankly, that's a stupid system. A few points I would like to counter, though...


...Simultaneously the current administration has reduced the deficit...

Reduced it from the four highest years ever in the history of our Country. Wow, epic accomplishment there. The CBO predicted our deficit almost to the number 3 years ago with it's report "Budget and Economic Outlook: Fiscal Years 2011 to 2021". A segment from that I found interesting...


In particular, the baseline projections in this report are based on the following assumptions:

Sharp reductions in Medicare's payment rates for physicians' services take effect as scheduled at the end of 2011;
Extensions of unemployment compensation, the one-year reduction in the payroll tax, and the two-year extension of provisions designed to limit the reach of the alternative minimum tax all expire as scheduled at the end of 2011;
Other provisions of the 2010 tax act, including extensions of lower tax rates and expanded credits and deductions originally enacted in the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001, the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003, and ARRA, expire as scheduled at the end of 2012; and
Funding for discretionary spending increases with inflation rather than at the considerably faster pace seen over the dozen years leading up to the recent recession.

So...Medicare is paying doctors less, payroll tax breaks went away, extra unemployment benefits went away, and discretionary spending was reduced...and the deficit went down? You don't say.



...Additionally, Obama has reduced federal employment...

The only way this is true, according to Office of Personnel Management records, is if you count uniformed military personnel as Federal employees. As of the end of 2012 we had 600,000 less of those than we did in 1988. That's not exactly what we mean when we say we want a "smaller government".

Interestingly enough, the number of military contractors has skyrocketed. Since these are technically funded by taxpayers, they should count...but they aren't anywhere in the OPM's report, naturally. Professor Paul Light, of NYU, did an interesting study on this, and used the Federal Government's procurement database to estimate there are about 4 and a half million Federal employees working as contractors. In his words:


[The federal government] uses contracts, grants, and mandates to state and local governments to hide its true size, thereby creating the illusion that it is smaller than it actually is, and give its departments and agencies much greater flexibility in hiring labor, thereby creating the illusion that the civil-service system is somehow working effectively.

Hrmm.


...Additionally, the current administration has kept inflation low...

This isn't necessarily a good thing. While you don't want crazy out of control skyrocketing inflation, you really don't want it to be stagnant near zero either. As someone writing for Forbes Magazine, I would assume this guy knows better, so I'm guessing he figures his average reader doesn't...although I would like to think the average reader of Forbes would. Ah well.

[Keller]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-znOcr60b3po/T74ErGsQy4I/AAAAAAAAHVY/XXyhAQmfIdQ/s1600/Clown+Car.gif

I see Darrell Issa and Michelle Bachmann - but who is the guy with the hat covering his eyes?

[Gelston]

I see Darrell Issa and Michelle Bachmann - but who is the guy with the hat covering his eyes?

Obama, hiding from the shame you cause him.

[Taernath]

Other people Obama is empirically better than: Talat Pasha, Maximilien de Robespierre, Idi Amin, Jeffrey Dahmer (debated)

[Latrinsorm]

The only way this is true, according to Office of Personnel Management records, is if you count uniformed military personnel as Federal employees. As of the end of 2012 we had 600,000 less of those than we did in 1988. That's not exactly what we mean when we say we want a "smaller government".You use the present tense correctly but it did used to be. Once upon a time conservatives were for a smaller government period, not a smaller government but for military spending: Nixon, Goldwater, Eisenhower. Why do you suppose this changed?
This isn't necessarily a good thing. While you don't want crazy out of control skyrocketing inflation, you really don't want it to be stagnant near zero either. As someone writing for Forbes Magazine, I would assume this guy knows better, so I'm guessing he figures his average reader doesn't...although I would like to think the average reader of Forbes would. Ah well.Is our inflation near zero, or is it near the historical average? How close does it have to be to zero for it to be bad, and how do we know this? When I look at each decade (and I say "I" rather than "we" for obvious reasons) I find that the 50s had the lowest average inflation of 2.09, yet they saw better real GDP growth than the 00s. The 70s had huge average inflation of 7.86, yet their real GDP growth was even better than the 50s. Plotting the values against a second order polynomial (little bad, some good, more bad) returns an R^2 of .1775, which is a rubbish fit.

I assume you know this because it's obviously true, but I wonder if you can find any data to support it. I'll look for more later.

[Warriorbird]

You use the present tense correctly but it did used to be. Once upon a time conservatives were for a smaller government period, not a smaller government but for military spending: Nixon, Goldwater, Eisenhower. Why do you suppose this changed?

Eisenhower certainly wanted smaller government. He achieved it too. Nixon not so much. Goldwater wanted small government so much he lost the election. Might have something to do with that.

[Stretch]

Barack Obama doesn't care about black people

[Wrathbringer]

I see Darrell Issa and Michelle Bachmann - but who is the guy with the hat covering his eyes?

Oh, that's Back.

[Thondalar]

You use the present tense correctly...

We're in the present, last I checked.


Is our inflation near zero, or is it near the historical average?

Since the average is 3.3, I would say both.


How close does it have to be to zero for it to be bad, and how do we know this? When I look at each decade (and I say "I" rather than "we" for obvious reasons) I find that the 50s had the lowest average inflation of 2.09, yet they saw better real GDP growth than the 00s. The 70s had huge average inflation of 7.86, yet their real GDP growth was even better than the 50s. Plotting the values against a second order polynomial (little bad, some good, more bad) returns an R^2 of .1775, which is a rubbish fit.

Thanks for proving that keeping inflation too low is bad for the economy. Pretty much what I just said.


I assume you know this because it's obviously true, but I wonder if you can find any data to support it. I'll look for more later.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." -Hayek

[Keller]

Another day with the certainty that our current President is better than Ronald Reagan.

It's a great feeling in America to know that our highest office keeps getting better and better.

We should all be proud!

:USA: :USA: :USA:

[Wrathbringer]

Another day with the certainty that our current President is better than Ronald Reagan.

It's a great feeling in America to know that our highest office keeps getting better and better.

We should all be proud!

:USA: :USA: :USA:

:spaz:

[Latrinsorm]

We're in the present, last I checked.Good talk.
Since the average is 3.3, I would say both.Tie goes to the runner, then? Or because it's a MAN in the Ovum Office, you automatically side against him? Misandrist.
Thanks for proving that keeping inflation too low is bad for the economy. Pretty much what I just said.First, I wanted to remark how interesting it is that Obama was pre-emptively criticized for pursuing policies that would cause too much inflation, and is now being criticized for not having enough. Second, I suppose I should stop being surprised by this, but did you miss the R^2 value? It measures the overall goodness of fit, which is useful because the untrained eye is attracted to whatever data point will prove its master's case (as yours has done). You can tame your eyes if you want to: after all, a data point can't possibly be as appealing as fine décolletage.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design." -HayekI am always delighted to learn more about la mas bonita Salmacita, but I am not sure how it relates to my statement.

[Thondalar]

Tie goes to the runner, then? Or because it's a MAN in the Ovum Office, you automatically side against him? Misandrist.

Guilty as charged.


First, I wanted to remark how interesting it is that Obama was pre-emptively criticized for pursuing policies that would cause too much inflation, and is now being criticized for not having enough.

I never criticized him for anything to do with inflation, because I realize that's a red herring when it comes to the US economy. My intent was to point out that the author of this article in Forbes should realize that as well, and the fact that he used it as part of his argument proves he's just pandering to his chosen audience.


Second, I suppose I should stop being surprised by this, but did you miss the R^2 value? It measures the overall goodness of fit, which is useful because the untrained eye is attracted to whatever data point will prove its master's case (as yours has done). You can tame your eyes if you want to: after all, a data point can't possibly be as appealing as fine décolletage.

I didn't miss it, I was pointing out the idiocy of this entire argument, and of your attempt to apply a static equation to macroeconomics. It's at least inane, if not entirely insane.


I am always delighted to learn more about la mas bonita Salmacita, but I am not sure how it relates to my statement.

See above.

[Keller]

It's pouring down rain here in west Michigan, but my spirits have never been brighter with the recent achievements of our greatest President, Barrack Hussein Obama.

[Gelston]

It's pouring down rain here in west Michigan, but my spirits have never been brighter with the recent achievements of our greatest President, Barrack Hussein Obama.

You're a terrible troll from a crappy state.

[Latrinsorm]

Guilty as charged.

I never criticized him for anything to do with inflation, because I realize that's a red herring when it comes to the US economy. My intent was to point out that the author of this article in Forbes should realize that as well, and the fact that he used it as part of his argument proves he's just pandering to his chosen audience.

I didn't miss it, I was pointing out the idiocy of this entire argument, and of your attempt to apply a static equation to macroeconomics. It's at least inane, if not entirely insane.

See above.I'm getting whiplash over here, so let's try some simple questions:

1. Are you arguing that keeping inflation too low is bad for the economy?
2. Are you further arguing that inflation under the Obama administration is too low?

[Keller]

You're a terrible troll from a crappy state.

No need to be so upset.

You're an American, living in America, during the golden age of its executive branch.

If the first world were the SEC, we're Alabama and Obama is Nick Saban.

Chant it with me now: U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A.

[Gelston]

No need to be so upset.

You're an American, living in America, during the golden age of its executive branch.

If the first world were the SEC, we're Alabama and Obama is Nick Saban.

Chant it with me now: U-S-A, U-S-A, U-S-A.

So, Obama made a crushing, game losing decision against Auburn and then lost to Oklahoma?

[Keller]

One thing is for sure - he's not Les Miles. Les Miles would be Vladimir Putin.

Kevin Sumlin would be Angela Merkel, and Steve Spurrier would be Francoise Hollande.

[Gelston]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Mark-Richt-Gun-2008CoachesTour-5-29-08.jpg

George W. Bush

[Methais]

Is Nick Saban really that girly? I never noticed.

[Keller]

So, Obama made a crushing, game losing decision against Auburn and then lost to Oklahoma?

Right - Obama, like Saban, is the first world's only hope.

Look what happened when Alabama wasn't in the BCS title game? The SEC couldn't even cheat their way to a championship over the ACC.

The ACC might as well be west Africa, the 'bola and all.

[Gelston]

Is Nick Saban really that girly? I never noticed.

That is Mark Richt.


Right - Obama, like Saban, is the first world's only hope.

Look what happened when Alabama wasn't in the BCS title game? The SEC couldn't even cheat their way to a championship over the ACC.

The ACC might as well be west Africa, the 'bola and all.

I'd say the Independents are West Africa, with Notre Dame being Liberia.

[Keller]

I mean - the SEC lost to a conference whose best head coach is a functional retard.

http://i.imgur.com/HU3Yjom.png

[Latrinsorm]

So I took quarterly data going back to 1947 and plotted inflation and real GDP growth:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/johnnyoldschool/InflationGDP_zpsa7a89145.png

Thondalar proposes a second order polynomial, so we have assumed that is the case. One benefit of a second order polynomial is that we can solve it analytically for a given level of GDP growth. First let us obtain the 0s with the quadratic formula:

-.06 x^2 + .50 x + 2.67 = 0
(-.5 ± sqrt(.5^2 + 4 * .06 * 2.67)) / (-.12)
-3.7% and 12.0% inflation are where we predict no growth, and going further in either direction predicts real GDP contraction.

The average in this span is 3.07% real GDP growth, so we can also see at what points inflation predicts below-average growth using the same formula and we find 0.9% and 7.4%. Inflation under Obama has averaged 1.6%, therefore inflation under Obama is not too low.

.

I recognize that this is the part where Thondalar will claim he never said inflation was too low, math has no place in economics, or some other manifestly silly way to get him out of (1) admitting he was wrong and (2) obtaining any data to establish he was right. With that said, I do think it's useful to establish some sort of quantitative bounds on just how much and how little inflation is good.

[Keller]

I won't pretend to understand what you just posted, but can I claim it is more empirical proof that Obama is a great President?

[Methais]

I won't pretend to understand what you just posted, but can I claim it is more empirical proof that Obama is a great President?

Are any of Latrin's posts proof of anything other than Latrin is Latrin?

[Latrinsorm]

I won't pretend to understand what you just posted, but can I claim it is more empirical proof that Obama is a great President?Empirically, you must.
Are any of Latrin's posts proof of anything other than Latrin is Latrin?...whoa!

[Keller]

My day keeps getting better and better.

Joy of joys, I am proud to be an American.

http://www.raregamer.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/fyeahamerica-montage-581x400.jpg

[Taernath]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q65KZIqay4E

[Thondalar]

I recognize that this is the part where Thondalar will claim he never said inflation was too low, math has no place in economics, or some other manifestly silly way to get him out of (1) admitting he was wrong and (2) obtaining any data to establish he was right. With that said, I do think it's useful to establish some sort of quantitative bounds on just how much and how little inflation is good.

So it's your assertion that inflation is the only factor affecting GDP, and GDP is the only measure of a healthy economy?

[Latrinsorm]

So it's your assertion that inflation is the only factor affecting GDP, and GDP is the only measure of a healthy economy?Did I call that or what? I didn't ask for these powers.

It's my assertion that you have no data to support your assumption beyond your bias against Obama, and your belief that criticizing someone else's data is just as good as producing your own is incorrect.

It's also my assertion that there is no systematic error involved in my methodology, that all the other factors affecting GDP are independent of inflation and therefore all we have to worry about is random error. To minimize this problem I've used literally all the data I have access to.

It's finally my assertion that real GDP is the best single measure of a healthy economy, that you are welcome to investigate any other measure you'd like, that you won't, and that you'd find similar results if you did.

[Thondalar]

Did I call that or what? I didn't ask for these powers.

Call what?


It's my assertion that you have no data to support your assumption beyond your bias against Obama, and your belief that criticizing someone else's data is just as good as producing your own is incorrect.

You should probably check back to my original statement on this and try to comprehend what I said. It really didn't have anything to do with Obama, and I wasn't criticizing anyone but the author of the article for using bullshit statements to pander to his audience.


It's also my assertion that there is no systematic error involved in my methodology, that all the other factors affecting GDP are independent of inflation and therefore all we have to worry about is random error.

The problem here is you directly linked inflation to GDP and said "here! look! proof!". That's the error in your methodology. We're talking about low inflation being generally bad for economic development. This doesn't mean that other factors can't increase economic development despite inflation. The Fed wants our inflation rate around 3%, Obama has been under that. Therefore, inflation is too low.


To minimize this problem I've used literally all the data I have access to.

And that's precisely the problem. You're not an economist, and you should be OK with that.


It's finally my assertion that real GDP is the best single measure of a healthy economy, that you are welcome to investigate any other measure you'd like, that you won't, and that you'd find similar results if you did.

Best single measure does not allow for ignoring all other measures. Dr. Karen Collins, who teaches Economics at Lehigh University and has authored college text books that people actually use, goes so far as to say "By itself, GDP doesn’t necessarily tell us much about the state of the economy". Hmm.

You're right, I won't "investigate any other measure", because I'm not here to give you a free course on Macroeconomics. I guess you should have minored in it. If you'd like to stop looking like an idiot when you talk about it, perhaps you should do your own research.

[Gelston]

There was 0 Ebola in the US under Reagan. Reagan wins.

[Methais]

There was 0 Ebola in the US under Reagan. Reagan wins.

But there were 0 instances of Reagan single handedly infiltrating Bin Laden's headquarters and killing him with his bare hands!

[Gelston]

But there were 0 instances of Reagan single handedly infiltrating Bin Laden's headquarters and killing Him with his bare hands!

That we know of.

[Androidpk]

But there were 0 instances of Reagan single handedly infiltrating Bin Laden's headquarters and killing Him with his bare hands!

Reagan was too busy killing Russians.

[Wrathbringer]

Obama is a terrorist.
Obama is black.
Obama is a murderer.
Obama is a liar.
Obama is incompetent.
Obama is irresponsible.
Obama has no character.
Obama likes men.
Obama can't throw a baseball.

If these qualities are your measuring stick, then yeah, Obama is miles ahead of Reagan. Otherwise, you're just another brain dead liberal troll.

[JackWhisper]

You forgot that Obama salutes with coffee.

[JackWhisper]

Obama's going to be remembered for being the President that was in office when Bin Laden was killed.

Other than that... he's a lame duck. Period. Sorry.

[Wrathbringer]

You forgot that Obama salutes with coffee.

Yeah, I just shook my head at that. Wow.

[Latrinsorm]

The problem here is you directly linked inflation to GDP and said "here! look! proof!". That's the error in your methodology. We're talking about low inflation being generally bad for economic development. This doesn't mean that other factors can't increase economic development despite inflation.That's the beauty of empirical research: it doesn't matter. All you need is a big enough sample size, and those other factors will cancel out over time because (this is the key) they aren't themselves correlated with inflation. Your problem as we will see at the * is that you don't have the training to look at all the data, you instead seize on any given point that you think makes your case.
The Fed wants our inflation rate around 3%, Obama has been under that. Therefore, inflation is too low.The entire point of contention is what "around" means, specifically. Is 2.99% close enough? 2.9%? 2%? You're certain that 1.6% isn't close enough, but as I have demonstrated there is no evidence for this certainty. (For the record the Fed's target is around 2%, but they're talking about PCE which is slightly lower than the CPI I've been citing and the important part is still the "around".)
And that's precisely the problem. You're not an economist, and you should be OK with that.Data is data, baby. Why do you think Wall Street hires physicists? :)
Best single measure does not allow for ignoring all other measures. Dr. Karen Collins, who teaches Economics at Lehigh University and has authored college text books that people actually use, goes so far as to say "By itself, GDP doesn’t necessarily tell us much about the state of the economy". Hmm.*If I didn't know better I would think you purposefully cited this to make me look good. Dr. Collins' full remark goes like this (http://catalog.flatworldknowledge.com/bookhub/5227?e=collins-ch01_s06):

"By itself, GDP doesn’t necessarily tell us much about the state of the economy. But change in GDP does. If GDP (after adjusting for inflation) goes up, the economy is growing. If it goes down, the economy is contracting."

My analysis did not use GDP, but real GDP growth. (Real is a short way of saying after adjusting for inflation.) Your own source says that I was right, perhaps it is time you followed suit.

[Thondalar]

That's the beauty of empirical research: it doesn't matter. All you need is a big enough sample size, and those other factors will cancel out over time because (this is the key) they aren't themselves correlated with inflation. Your problem as we will see at the * is that you don't have the training to look at all the data, you instead seize on any given point that you think makes your case.

Actually, that's what you're doing, because you're incapable of calculating all the data in any measurable manner. There's a reason people spend their entire thesis (and later, lives) on trying to determine what creates a healthy economy. Protip, this isn't A+B=C. This is where you fail, and I wish you could realize it. You can do all the empirical research you want on Economics...I'm willing to bet it's already been done. Ten-fold. If it was as simple as you would like it to be, there would be no question about it.


The entire point of contention is what "around" means, specifically. Is 2.99% close enough? 2.9%? 2%? You're certain that 1.6% isn't close enough, but as I have demonstrated there is no evidence for this certainty. (For the record the Fed's target is around 2%, but they're talking about PCE which is slightly lower than the CPI I've been citing and the important part is still the "around".)

True or false, the average rate of inflation since Obama took office is lower than the Fed's desired rate. Pretty simple...true or false.


Data is data, baby. Why do you think Wall Street hires physicists? :)*If I didn't know better I would think you purposefully cited this to make me look good. Dr. Collins' full remark goes like:

"By itself, GDP doesn’t necessarily tell us much about the state of the economy. But change in GDP does. If GDP (after adjusting for inflation) goes up, the economy is growing. If it goes down, the economy is contracting."

My analysis did not use GDP, but real GDP growth. (Real is a short way of saying after adjusting for inflation.) Your own source says that I was right, perhaps it is time you followed suit.

Your analysis proved inflation has precisely dick measurable to do with economic growth. Something I've been saying from the beginning, if you'd bother to pay attention.

You seem like a relatively intelligent fellow, which is why things like this confuse the shit out of me. I can only assume you're too busy counting the leaves on the trees, and that's why you can't see the forest.

[Androidpk]

Actually, that's what you're doing, because you're incapable of calculating all the data in any measurable manner. There's a reason people spend their entire thesis (and later, lives) on trying to determine what creates a healthy economy. Protip, this isn't A+B=C. This is where you fail, and I wish you could realize it. You can do all the empirical research you want on Economics...I'm willing to bet it's already been done. Ten-fold. If it was as simple as you would like it to be, there would be no question about it.



True or false, the average rate of inflation since Obama took office is lower than the Fed's desired rate. Pretty simple...true or false.



Your analysis proved inflation has precisely dick measurable to do with economic growth. Something I've been saying from the beginning, if you'd bother to pay attention.

You seem like a relatively intelligent fellow, which is why things like this confuse the shit out of me. I can only assume you're too busy counting the leaves on the trees, and that's why you can't see the forest.

How come a person like yourself is working at a restaurant chain?

[Wrathbringer]

How come a person like yourself is working at a restaurant chain?

Because those are the only jobs obummer could create with his lame "we need more jobs" rhetoric. When that's all there is, it's no wonder they want $15/hr.

[Parkbandit]

Don't Back and Thondalar both work at restaurant chains (within one level of each other) thus making their criticism of each other extra ridiculous?

Depends on the criticism. I've never allowed what I do for a job dictate my political beliefs.

If I did, I would be a raging liberal right now.. saving the planet through energy conservation!

[Warriorbird]

Depends on the criticism. I've never allowed what I do for a job dictate my political beliefs.

If I did, I would be a raging liberal right now.. saving the planet through energy conservation!

I don't think either of mine influence mine (apart from a general detestation of the state ABC board, but I'm not sure whether that's a conservative or liberal thought). I think both of their belief sets are influenced by their interactions with subordinates though. They just have very different takes on it.

I'm more talking about when we get things like each of them terming each other "broke."

[Back]

How come a person like yourself is working at a restaurant chain?

This sounds like you are being judgmental of his occupation. I don't get this mentality. Just like how people bashed Rocktar for working at Walmart. If a person is out in the world being productive and contributing it's better than them laying around collecting on the dole or committing crimes.

There is class bias in our country. It needs to go away. In our society a person stocking supermarket shelves has as much importance as the person in the offices watching the P&L of the business. You can't have one without the other.


Don't Back and Thondalar both work at restaurant chains (within one level of each other) thus making their criticism of each other extra ridiculous?

While he and I disagree politically I would not dismiss his opinions for his occupation. Obviously. The beauty of our political system is that everyone has a voice. The stone mason, the architect, the banker, and the secretary. Each has an equal vote. In theory, anyway.

[Androidpk]

This sounds like you are being judgmental of his occupation. I don't get this mentality. Just like how people bashed Rocktar for working at Walmart. If a person is out in the world being productive and contributing it's better than them laying around collecting on the dole or committing crimes.

There is class bias in our country. It needs to go away. In our society a person stocking supermarket shelves has as much importance as the person in the offices watching the P&L of the business. You can't have one without the other.


And this is you jumping to conclusions. As someone who loves to cook why would I criticize someone for making a living from that?

I asked that because he generally seems to have a strong interest in politics and is well spoken and intelligent. Curiousity != judgemental.

[Warriorbird]

ridiculous assumption and really fucking harsh

This is particularly funny when I was suggesting they have a bit more empathy for each other.

[leifastagsweed]

Intelligence != corporate suit job.

[Parkbandit]

Intelligence != corporate suit job.

http://memestorage.com/_nw/58/98514998.jpg

Who said it did?

[Parkbandit]

This sounds like you are being judgmental of his occupation. I don't get this mentality. Just like how people bashed Rocktar for working at Walmart. If a person is out in the world being productive and contributing it's better than them laying around collecting on the dole or committing crimes.

This from the guy who believes that the people who have jobs should pay for people who don't want to work.....


There is class bias in our country. It needs to go away. In our society a person stocking supermarket shelves has as much importance as the person in the offices watching the P&L of the business. You can't have one without the other.


The number of people who are able to stock a shelf with product is far higher than the person in the office able to effectively manage the profit of a business. This is why there is a difference in pay.

[Back]

I don't think either of mine influence mine (apart from a general detestation of the state ABC board, but I'm not sure whether that's a conservative or liberal thought). I think both of their belief sets are influenced by their interactions with subordinates though. They just have very different takes on it.

I'm more talking about when we get things like each of them terming each other "broke."

Thats kinda silly, don't you think? My beliefs are from my own life experience. I haven't always worked in restaurants. I've been a journeyman in the print trade, then later a graphic designer at a small DC influence boutique.

I guess I get where you are going though. Are there more dems in the social worker profession? Are there more republican cops?

[Back]

And this is you jumping to conclusions. As someone who loves to cook why would I criticize someone for making a living from that?

I asked that because he generally seems to have a strong interest in politics and is well spoken and intelligent. Curiousity != judgemental.



Yeah, I was a little to quick to be defensive. Apologies for that. You went the other way from how I took it. "Whats a smart guy like you working in X? Shouldn't you be in Y?"

Though that may imply that X<Y but I get what you are saying now.

[Androidpk]

I can see where you could have gotten that. Like you said, a job is a job and any job is better than no job. Almost, anyways.

[Taernath]

I can see where you could have gotten that. Like you said, a job is a job and any job is better than no job. Almost, anyways.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj4MQd3hStc

[Tgo01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj4MQd3hStc

"There's a famous colleague who got a black eye from...penis...banging."

[Methais]

I don't think either of mine influence mine (apart from a general detestation of the state ABC board, but I'm not sure whether that's a conservative or liberal thought). I think both of their belief sets are influenced by their interactions with subordinates though. They just have very different takes on it.

I'm more talking about when we get things like each of them terming each other "broke."

MC Hammer is broke too. Just saying.

[Methais]

"There's a famous colleague who got a black eye from...penis...banging."

He never actually said it was from an accident involving elephant penis either.

Clearly he's gay.

[Latrinsorm]

Actually, that's what you're doing, because you're incapable of calculating all the data in any measurable manner. There's a reason people spend their entire thesis (and later, lives) on trying to determine what creates a healthy economy. Protip, this isn't A+B=C. This is where you fail, and I wish you could realize it. You can do all the empirical research you want on Economics...I'm willing to bet it's already been done. Ten-fold. If it was as simple as you would like it to be, there would be no question about it.What makes you think there is a question about it? That is to say, what makes you think economists are arguing through the wee hours about whether 1.6% is too close or too far from 2%?
True or false, the average rate of inflation since Obama took office is lower than the Fed's desired rate. Pretty simple...true or false.It turns out that the PCE and CPI inflation are both at 1.6% for the period since Jan 2009, so that's pretty handy, and it is lower than the desired rate of 2%. I wish you could see how far you've moved the goal posts, though. The progression in fast forward, and I have taken the liberty of bolding:

"...you really don't want it to be stagnant near zero either."
"The Fed wants our inflation rate around 3%, Obama has been under that."
"...the average rate of inflation since Obama took office is lower than the Fed's desired rate."

Your (current) argument comes down to two fifths of a percent. If you can't see how that's a stretch, I don't know what to tell you. Same deal if you can't see how you've fundamentally altered your argument as each iteration was demonstrated to be false. It's a shame.
Your analysis proved inflation has precisely dick measurable to do with economic growth. Something I've been saying from the beginning, if you'd bother to pay attention.I pay very careful attention, I think this is why you have such trouble with me. For instance, I paid very careful attention when you said "keeping inflation too low is bad for the economy." Now, suddenly, inflation has nothing to do with growth. Fascinating!
You seem like a relatively intelligent fellow, which is why things like this confuse the shit out of me. I can only assume you're too busy counting the leaves on the trees, and that's why you can't see the forest.Bro, all I did was look up the citation you provided, and it agreed 100% with what I said. It's a big Internet, just find another citation that actually does disagree with me. It shouldn't be that hard... unless I'm actually right. :D

[Jeril]

What makes you think there is a question about it? That is to say, what makes you think economists are arguing through the wee hours about whether 1.6% is too close or too far from 2%?It turns out that the PCE and CPI inflation are both at 1.6% for the period since Jan 2009, so that's pretty handy, and it is lower than the desired rate of 2%. I wish you could see how far you've moved the goal posts, though. The progression in fast forward, and I have taken the liberty of bolding:

"...you really don't want it to be stagnant near zero either."
"The Fed wants our inflation rate around 3%, Obama has been under that."
"...the average rate of inflation since Obama took office is lower than the Fed's desired rate."

Your (current) argument comes down to two fifths of a percent. If you can't see how that's a stretch, I don't know what to tell you. Same deal if you can't see how you've fundamentally altered your argument as each iteration was demonstrated to be false. It's a shame.I pay very careful attention, I think this is why you have such trouble with me. For instance, I paid very careful attention when you said "keeping inflation too low is bad for the economy." Now, suddenly, inflation has nothing to do with growth. Fascinating!Bro, all I did was look up the citation you provided, and it agreed 100% with what I said. It's a big Internet, just find another citation that actually does disagree with me. It shouldn't be that hard... unless I'm actually right. :D

That 2/5ths of a point is also 20% lower then the desired outcome according to all those numbers.

[Latrinsorm]

That 2/5ths of a point is also 20% lower then the desired outcome according to all those numbers.Sure, but what does that 20% mean? If you have a 20% drop in body temperature you're (to use a technical term) dead as shit, if you have a 20% drop in your gas tank your car runs exactly the same. As Thondalar's always saying (when he thinks it suits his side of the argument), what's the context of that number? As Thondalar's not always saying, we can put a quantitative figure on this with Latrinsorm's Handy Inflation to GDP Formula.

LET X EQUAL TWO!
And x was two.
-.06 * 2^2 + .50 * 2 + 2.67
= 3.43% growth

LET X BECOME REDUCED BY TWO FIFTHS OF ONE!
And this too was so.
-.06 * 1.6^2 + .50 * 1.6 + 2.67
= 3.3164% growth

80% of the inflation predicts 97.5% of the growth. I assert that this is a negligible difference, and I would look positively askance at someone who proclaimed the first healthy and the latter stagnant. Doesn't that seem reasonable?

[Laviticas]

I wonder how many of you were even alive when Reagan was president? It's like comparing Jefferson to Gerald Ford. Reagan had an aura of red, white and blue, Obama an aura of yellow.

[Warriorbird]

I wonder how many of you were even alive when Reagan was president? It's like comparing Jefferson to Gerald Ford. Reagan had an aura of red, white and blue, Obama an aura of yellow.

Most of us. Most of us are also able to tell that your views might be a tiny bit biased.

[Laviticas]

Why would you think I'm biased? I spent the majority of my life as a bleeding heart liberal, I have voted Republican 2x in ..... 26 years. Could it be Im not biased and just not a giant vagina who is not afraid to say Obama is an empty suite? On the verge of WW 3 and the man child wants to talk weather.

[Warriorbird]

Why would you think I'm biased? I spent the majority of my life as a bleeding heart liberal, I have voted Republican 2x in ..... 26 years. Could it be Im not biased and just not a giant vagina who is not afraid to say Obama is an empty suite? On the verge of WW 3 and the man child wants to talk weather.

Nobody's as zealous as a convert.

[Taernath]

Why would you think I'm biased? I spent the majority of my life as a bleeding heart liberal, I have voted Republican 2x in ..... 26 years. Could it be Im not biased and just not a giant vagina who is not afraid to say Obama is an empty suite? On the verge of WW 3 and the man child wants to talk weather.

Far be it from me to pull the No True Scotsman but nothing you've ever posted strikes me as 'moderate'.

[Laviticas]

Far be it from me to pull the No True Scotsman but nothing you've ever posted strikes me as 'moderate'.

If there was one thing I learned as my years as a liberal and something conservatives are starting to learn. Using extreme language moves your agenda, just ask the liberals. Making nice with the opponent gets you two things, a smile quickly followed up by a kick in the nuts.

[Androidpk]

Ehh, I completely disagree. Not only does extreme language not move agendas forward it is also counter-productive.

[Warriorbird]

If there was one thing I learned as my years as a liberal and something conservatives are starting to learn. Using extreme language moves your agenda, just ask the liberals. Making nice with the opponent gets you two things, a smile quickly followed up by a kick in the nuts.

That was supposed to be a claim of moderateness?

[Laviticas]

Ehh, I completely disagree. Not only does extreme language not move agendas forward it is also counter-productive.

I also used to think the same, but the fact is it works very well. Take for instance The Weather Underground, this group was the extreme of the extreme, they now teach our children and have a president that they groomed.

[Androidpk]

I also used to think the same, but the fact is it works very well. Take for instance The Weather Underground, this group was the extreme of the extreme, they now teach our children and have a president that they groomed.

You are so far off base it isn't even funny.

[Laviticas]

That was supposed to be a claim of moderateness?

Didn't know I was proclaiming anything. It was you that suggested I was biased, I showed you my voting record. How can I be far right if I have overwhelmingly voted democrat?

You know what changed my position? Continually seeing my paycheck shrink from taxes, as abled body people sit at home collecting free food, free housing, free healthcare and realizing these are the people that want me to continue to vote for their lifestyle. Add that to pretty much every social structure crumbling under democrat ideology.

[Laviticas]

You are so far off base it isn't even funny.

Am I? Do their members not teach at our Universities? Did not some of their members help jumpstart Obama's campaign?

[Parkbandit]

Ehh, I completely disagree. Not only does extreme language not move agendas forward it is also counter-productive.

"War on Women!"
"Racists!"
"Uncle Tom!"
"Xenophobes!"
"Flat Earthers!"

Seems like they've been somewhat successful.

[Warriorbird]

Didn't know I was proclaiming anything. It was you that suggested I was biased, I showed you my voting record. How can I be far right if I have overwhelmingly voted democrat?

You know what changed my position? Continually seeing my paycheck shrink from taxes, as abled body people sit at home collecting free food, free housing, free healthcare and realizing these are the people that want me to continue to vote for their lifestyle. Add that to pretty much every social structure crumbling under democrat ideology.

Let me just repeat another "There's nobody as zealous as a convert."

We even get some of your manifesto inserted at the end of your post.

[Laviticas]

We even get some of your manifesto inserted at the end of your post.

Speaking of extreme language, now I have a manifesto.

[Warriorbird]

Speaking of extreme language, now I have a manifesto.

I'm not the one wailing about "our crumbling institutions!" I'm sure you could take that whole paragraph on the street preacher circuit.

[Laviticas]

I'm not the one wailing about "our crumbling institutions!" I'm sure you could take that whole paragraph on the street preacher circuit.

"Wailing" more extreme language, but I will put you to the challenge.

Pillar of family = 50% divorce rate (failing)

Pillar of Government = failing

Pillar of education = failing

Pillar of Religion = failing

Without these social structures, society fails. Now show me any modern society where these pillars are not intact that is successful.

[Warriorbird]

"Wailing" more extreme language, but I will put you to the challenge.

Pillar of family = 50% divorce rate (failing)

Pillar of Government = failing

Pillar of education = failing

Pillar of Religion = failing

Without these social structures, society fails. Now show me any modern society where these pillars are not intact that is successful.

Please give me more uncited rant language and you can gnash your teeth some more while you're at it. We'd hear rumors of the sky falling but I'm sure you think Chicken Little is an evil treehugger plotting to destroy us all.

[Laviticas]

Please give me more uncited rant language and you can gnash your teeth some more while you're at it. We'd hear rumors of the sky falling but I'm sure you think Chicken Little is an evil treehugger plotting to destroy us all.

Why Warriorbird, are you unable to answer the question? Is this all you have is an attempt make me out as a bible thumper? Are you starting to see the looming cloud of the liberal downfall as more American's start to wake up to the liberal bullshit and see how destructive the fallacy is?

1 successful country that has succeeded without these structures, just 1, it can't be that hard if I am so wrong.

[Androidpk]

And what is the answer to mindless liberalism? Mindless conservative? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

[Taernath]

Is this all you have is an attempt make me out as a bible thumper?

Are you saying you're not a bible thumper? Because you're approaching Landover Baptist critical mass.

[Taernath]

Please give me more uncited rant language and you can gnash your teeth some more while you're at it. We'd hear rumors of the sky falling but I'm sure you think Chicken Little is an evil treehugger plotting to destroy us all.

WB, again with the extremist comments! Why can't you see that Barack Obama is a genetically engineered Kenyan supersoldier created by the Weather Underground to destroy America from within?

[Laviticas]

And what is the answer to mindless liberalism? Mindless conservative? Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

I have never said that, nor would I. There are very few things I don't agree with you folks on, obviously considering my voting record. Really I can only think of one thing I vastly differ on, that being when life begins. I'm totally for a safety net, I just believe it needs restructured, all for public education, just needs restructured. I'm all for gay marriage as long as others positions are are respected, this does not mean I believe it's right, but I respect others positions on the matter. I'm totally against war, but this does not mean I don't believe there is not a time where it is needed and then total destruction of the enemy not police actions. I can think of very few things we don't agree on.

[Laviticas]

Are you saying you're not a bible thumper? Because you're approaching Landover Baptist critical mass.

Have I ever quoted scripture, ever?

[Androidpk]

I have never said that, nor would I. There are very few things I don't agree with you folks on, obviously considering my voting record. Really I can only think of one thing I vastly differ on, that being when life begins. I'm totally for a safety net, I just believe it needs restructured, all for public education, just needs restructured. I'm all for gay marriage as long as others positions are are respected, this does not mean I believe it's right, but I respect others positions on the matter. I'm totally against war, but this does not mean I don't believe there is not a time where it is needed and then total destruction of the enemy not police actions. I can think of very few things we don't agree on.

A safety net for who?

[Warriorbird]

WB, again with the extremist comments! Why can't you see that Barack Obama is a genetically engineered Kenyan supersoldier created by the Weather Underground to destroy America from within?

My gosh you're right. Revelations is upon us! Woe unto us! We're immediately doomed because of our "crumbling institutions!" There's nothing to keep us safe from the Antichrist! Clearly our only solution is to make PC handles that are misspellings of books in the Bible.

[Gelston]

My gosh you're right. Revelations is upon us! Woe unto us! We're immediately doomed because of our "crumbling institutions!" There's nothing to keep us safe from the Antichrist!

Ebola was engineered by God to stop the Antichrist.

[Warriorbird]

Ebola was engineered by God to stop the Antichrist.

Clearly we have to make sure that Houston is open to all! Then we have to make sure we don't get Left Behind (tm)!

[TheEschaton]

"Wailing" more extreme language, but I will put you to the challenge.

Pillar of family = 50% divorce rate (failing)

Pillar of Government = failing

Pillar of education = failing

Pillar of Religion = failing

Without these social structures, society fails. Now show me any modern society where these pillars are not intact that is successful.

Wow, who is this guy? I'm glad the PC political threads manage to cycle in new whackos to keep things fresh every so often. You can only read so much PB in a lifetime.

[Gelston]

Wow, who is this guy? I'm glad the PC political threads manage to cycle in new whackos to keep things fresh every so often. You can only read so much PB in a lifetime.

He is you as a republican, duh.

Well, maybe more towards Keller.

[Warriorbird]

He is you as a republican, duh.

Well, maybe more towards Keller.

Other than TheE's somewhat arcane views on home defense he's not that out there. He doesn't usually declare America immediately doomed, no matter who is President.

[JackWhisper]

I don't think America will ever be doomed. If shit got terrible for us, we'd just take over Canada and steal all their resources. Nobody gives a fuck about Canada anyways.

[Androidpk]

On a long enough time line every country is eventually fucked. There is no escaping entropy.

[JackWhisper]

I think when America gets that far gone, we'll just invade everyone else and take over the world. If anyone is self-centered enough to do that, it's us Americans.

'MURIKA!

[Gelston]

I think when America gets that far gone, we'll just invade everyone else and take over the world. If anyone is self-centered enough to do that, it's us Americans.

'MURIKA!

I think when America is that far gone, we are already being invaded.

[Androidpk]

We already are being invaded.

[Gelston]

We already are being invaded.

No, no we aren't. Not anymore then when Irish, Italians, or other Europeans were immigrating to the country. People said the same shit about them back then that they say about Hispanics today.

[Wrathbringer]

Didn't know I was proclaiming anything. It was you that suggested I was biased, I showed you my voting record. How can I be far right if I have overwhelmingly voted democrat?

You know what changed my position? Continually seeing my paycheck shrink from taxes, as abled body people sit at home collecting free food, free housing, free healthcare and realizing these are the people that want me to continue to vote for their lifestyle. Add that to pretty much every social structure crumbling under democrat ideology.

Eventually, you'll get to the "if you can't beat them, join them" stage because you can't beat them. We're never going back to the "it pays to be personally responsible" plan. The liberal socialist agenda is too far along. This snowball is too huge and rolling too quickly. Taxes will continue to rise, especially on those who work to pay them. The numbers of people on government assistance has never been higher, and will continue to rise. The social structures are indeed crumbling under morally bankrupt leftist ideals. The only person who is going to make sure you get to keep what you earn is you, and the best way to do that is not reporting all your income. That way, you keep some, and you get on the government gravy train if you hold back enough. Hundreds of dollars in food stamps every month for free. Now you're getting your tax money back. The ship is sinking. Get in on it while you can. You don't want to be the last person to catch on.

[Wrathbringer]

We already are being invaded.

Yes we are. We're the land of the free (food, healthcare, shelter), what do we expect?

[Parkbandit]

Other than TheE's somewhat arcane views on home defense he's not that out there. He doesn't usually declare America immediately doomed, no matter who is President.

I don't know.. he ALMOST makes you look like a moderate.

TheE is pretty much "out there"... he's just been quiet for a few years.

[Latrinsorm]

Didn't know I was proclaiming anything. It was you that suggested I was biased, I showed you my voting record. How can I be far right if I have overwhelmingly voted democrat?One of those self hating conservatives.
1 successful country that has succeeded without these structures, just 1, it can't be that hard if I am so wrong.You assume a premise that has not been established. America is not falling; America is rising. We have our highest real GDP ever (raw and per capita), we have the most protected rights of any society ever, we have our most diverse population ever, every national violent crime rate has been in decline since the election of Clin-ton (and most of the non violent ones too). You say the pillar of religion is falling, but the religion of America is multiculturalism. Always has been. That the founders were all Christian does not mean they intended a Christian theocracy. How do we know this? They explicitly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli) and repeatedly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution) said otherwise.
WB, again with the extremist comments! Why can't you see that Barack Obama is a genetically engineered Kenyan supersoldier created by the Weather Underground to destroy America from within?Wait a minute... GMO, BHO... it all adds up!!!

[Laviticas]

One of those self hating conservatives.You assume a premise that has not been established. America is not falling; America is rising. We have our highest real GDP ever (raw and per capita), we have the most protected rights of any society ever, we have our most diverse population ever, every national violent crime rate has been in decline since the election of Clin-ton (and most of the non violent ones too). You say the pillar of religion is falling, but the religion of America is multiculturalism. Always has been. That the founders were all Christian does not mean they intended a Christian theocracy. How do we know this? They explicitly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli) and repeatedly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Six_of_the_United_States_Constitution) said otherwise.Wait a minute... GMO, BHO... it all adds up!!!

Oh I'm mistaken, then we don't need more money for schools, that's a relief I can keep my income. I guess 17% approval rating is a great rating, government is working wonderfully. What children need both a father and mother as long as child support is being collected. Yea that multi-cultural religion has been happy go lucky lately, people getting decapitated, military bases getting shot up, wonderful new viruses we all dream about, I know I want ebola....where the fuck in that mind of yours did religion = Christianity exclusively?

[Keller]

"Wailing" more extreme language, but I will put you to the challenge.

Pillar of family = 50% divorce rate (failing)

Pillar of Government = failing

Pillar of education = failing

Pillar of Religion = failing

Without these social structures, society fails. Now show me any modern society where these pillars are not intact that is successful.

You are absolutely right.

Let's take an objective look at the reasons those pillars are failing.

Pillar of Family. You are correct that the divorce rate is entirely too high. The responsibility for the high rate of divorce in America is on religious conservatives. They push young people to marry entirely to early, before they have sown their seeds.

Pillar of Government. The Koch brothers' special interest group, the Tea Party, has effectively neutered the best President we've had since Lincoln. Obama has fixed the economic debacle they created, and for thanks they've held the federal government hostage.

Pillar of Education. Want to know how to fix schools, let's spend more money on bombs. Seriously. If we're not going to spend money on books, and the GOP has made it increasingly clear they will resist all attempts to educate our youth, we should have a robust military to give these under educated youths some on-the-job training. Added bonus, we get to teach the mooslims a thing or two about our religion of peace.

Pillar of Religion. I blame this on the scientists filling our kids' heads with nonsense. If kids didn't have all these lies shoved down their throats trying to explain away the miracle of God's creation, they wouldn't be threatening to stop propping up this millinia old ponzi scheme.

[Androidpk]

Can't tell if keller is serious or trolling. Hopefully the latter.

[Latrinsorm]

Oh I'm mistaken, then we don't need more money for schools, that's a relief I can keep my income.Oh, the tax rate should go up for sure. We have the lowest federal income taxes in the last 80 years, it's not a coincidence we're having trouble with the deficit at the same time. This isn't specifically related to education, but it is a point worth bringing up.
I guess 17% approval rating is a great rating, government is working wonderfully.If you had said Americans are more spoiled than ever, I wouldn't have disagreed with you.
What children need both a father and mother as long as child support is being collected.We're the best ever, but we can be even better. With that said, the overall situation for children is miles ahead of where it was 100, 50, even 10 years ago.
Yea that multi-cultural religion has been happy go lucky lately, people getting decapitated, military bases getting shot up,Is it your contention that our military is suffering its highest casualty rate in history under the current administration?
wonderful new viruses we all dream about, I know I want ebola....If you like your virus, you can keep it!

[Parkbandit]

Can't tell if keller is serious or trolling. Hopefully the latter.

There are multiple trolls in this thread... each one trying to out do the last, to become king of the trolls...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Powerpunk/TROLL-FIGHT.jpg

[Wrathbringer]

You are absolutely right.

Let's take an objective look at the reasons those pillars are failing.

Pillar of Family. You are correct that the divorce rate is entirely too high. The responsibility for the high rate of divorce in America is on religious conservatives. They push young people to marry entirely to early, before they have sown their seeds.

Pillar of Government. The Koch brothers' special interest group, the Tea Party, has effectively neutered the best President we've had since Lincoln. Obama has fixed the economic debacle they created, and for thanks they've held the federal government hostage.

Pillar of Education. Want to know how to fix schools, let's spend more money on bombs. Seriously. If we're not going to spend money on books, and the GOP has made it increasingly clear they will resist all attempts to educate our youth, we should have a robust military to give these under educated youths some on-the-job training. Added bonus, we get to teach the mooslims a thing or two about our religion of peace.

Pillar of Religion. I blame this on the scientists filling our kids' heads with nonsense. If kids didn't have all these lies shoved down their throats trying to explain away the miracle of God's creation, they wouldn't be threatening to stop propping up this millinia old ponzi scheme.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-znOcr60b3po/T74ErGsQy4I/AAAAAAAAHVY/XXyhAQmfIdQ/s1600/Clown+Car.gif

[TheEschaton]

I am pretty out there. I'm a pacifist and, economically, a socialist. I think capitalism is slowly failing, or at least the concept of laissez-faire, Ayn Randian capitalism. There has to be a blend of capitalism and socialism that works better than this.

I've been quiet for a few years because I honestly don't care to change the mind of those who are wrong any more. There is no seeing reason among politically-minded people any more. I'm not involved in politics any more besides doing my civic duty and voting, and I just do what I can do with no expectation of anyone doing anything more. Which means I volunteer a lot in soup kitchens and homeless shelters (or at least I did, when I lived in NYC and hadn't moved down here to Baltimore to help my mom out).

In the end, I don't have to, and can't, answer for the tomfuckery of the rest of you. And that's okay by me. It don't matter if you can't see my light, as long as I keep on shining, brothers. ;)

Also, Back is still retarded. A P&L person who is more specialized and educated and able to make rational decisions is absolutely more valuable to a business than the service staff out front. As a liberal, though, I feel like "being less valuable" shouldn't lead to "working 80 hours a week and paying 75% of your income to housing." And it shouldn't lead to CEOs being paid 500x what other employees are making, or whatever that number is now. All human beings are given equal rights, but all human beings are not created equal. C.F. Back, who is dumber than a box of bricks, with someone like Gelston, who at least seems passably intelligent for his side of the debate.

[Tgo01]

But we miss you around here TheE :(

I usually don't agree with a word you say but you usually make a strong argument for your case.

[Androidpk]

But we miss you around here TheE :(

I usually don't agree with a word you say but you usually make a strong argument for your case.

Who knew dressing up as a bear would impart so much wisdom :)

[Tgo01]

Who knew dressing up as a bear would impart so much wisdom :)

God.

[JackWhisper]

This guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ovXnZcb_A

[Thondalar]

How come a person like yourself is working at a restaurant chain?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I'm assuming it's a compliment, so see far below.


Because those are the only jobs obummer could create with his lame "we need more jobs" rhetoric. When that's all there is, it's no wonder they want $15/hr

I make a good deal more than $15/hr, even considering the hours I work.


Don't Back and Thondalar both work at restaurant chains (within one level of each other) thus making their criticism of each other extra ridiculous?

I wasn't aware any given profession automatically invalidates logical discourse.


I can see the line of thought here, and let me nip it. There is a cavernous distance between salaried and hourly employees in the restaurant business, and there is a cavernous distance between salaried employees of different restaurants, and different positions within different levels of restaurant management.

Could I have applied myself more and done greater things? Doctor, lawyer, scientist...most certainly. The Navy was kicking my door down to be a nuclear propulsion engineer after they got hold of my ASVAB scores. I'm drunk, so I'll let you in on a little secret...I'm basically a nihilist. I don't see any point in doing anything, because a thousand years from now it won't matter. A million years from now it will matter even less. We're little specks of dirt flying around in a cosmic vacuum. Can you even comprehend the ramifications of a billion years? I can't, although I try daily.

I digress. Somewhere between the revelation that everything you do means jack fucking squat in the grand scheme of things and waking up in the hospital with a tube down my throat, I managed to get a girl pregnant. This altered my reality a bit, because before that I was perfectly happy letting myself wander back into the nether from whence I came. Now, things were different...despite my understanding of reality, I had others whom I'd come to love that didn't feel the same way, and I needed to be a supportive member of their reality.

When I was 15 my parents told me they'd buy me a car if I got a part time job to pay for insurance and gas. I'd always enjoyed cooking...although nobody in my family ever did it professionally, I came from a very diverse and active culinary background...my Dad's side of the family was very traditional Italian and Polish, and my Mom's side of the family was German/Dutch, but lived in the South long enough to be heavily influenced. Everybody cooked...I never had anything growing up that wasn't home-made. My natural instinct was to look for a job in the restaurant industry...a friend of mine I went to school with had a father who owned a restaurant, and he got me a job bussing tables. It just so happened his Dad's place was a high-end steakhouse, so I made a killing there bussing tables...I used to pull in $600 a week in 1995 working 15 hours, most of it cash. The business got into my blood...I think now, perhaps it was there all along.

I'm prattling a bit, but follow me...you can make a very good living in restaurant management. VERY good. Even fast food, McDonald's n' shit, pays 50k+, with health insurance and 401k and paid vacations. For management. This is the difference I spoke about earlier...hourlies don't make shit. They're lucky if they get any benefits...after I couldn't take the bullshit anymore and left State employment, I worked at a Winghouse (Hooters rip-off) for a few years...I was salaried there, and after bonus I made roughly 90k/year, with 401k and paid vacations and insurance, and blah blah...but the hourlies there made their hourly rate. 9-11 bucks an hour. And that's it. clock in, make your 9 or 10 bucks an hour while you're on the clock, clock out and go home.

I just recently switched, about 2 months ago, to a restaurant called Longhorn Steakhouse...a chain, yes, but part of the Darden family of restaurants. Darden is the sort of company that takes care of all employees...even hourlies get 401k, paid leave, insurance, etc. Management still gets the sweeter deal, of course...my boss now, someone I've worked with before in another restaurant, is a managing partner...basically her salary comes off the top of the total sales. 2 or 3%...she's making at least a quarter million dollars a year, running a steakhouse in Lakeland. I took a bit of a cut from my 90k at Winghouse, but it's a much better environment, easier workload, and better opportunities for advancement. I plan on being a managing partner myself in a couple years, making that...with just a GED.

It's certainly not all that I'm capable of doing, but it's something that's easy for me that makes me a lot of money at the same time. I've passed on my potential to change the world, and moved on to just being a person who works to provide a stable environment for their kids to maybe change the world.

[Warriorbird]

I can see the line of thought here, and let me nip it. There is a cavernous distance between salaried and hourly employees in the restaurant business, and there is a cavernous distance between salaried employees of different restaurants, and different positions within different levels of restaurant management.

Could I have applied myself more and done greater things? Doctor, lawyer, scientist...most certainly. The Navy was kicking my door down to be a nuclear propulsion engineer after they got hold of my ASVAB scores. I'm drunk, so I'll let you in on a little secret...I'm basically a nihilist. I don't see any point in doing anything, because a thousand years from now it won't matter. A million years from now it will matter even less. We're little specks of dirt flying around in a cosmic vacuum. Can you even comprehend the ramifications of a billion years? I can't, although I try daily.

I digress. Somewhere between the revelation that everything you do means jack fucking squat in the grand scheme of things and waking up in the hospital with a tube down my throat, I managed to get a girl pregnant. This altered my reality a bit, because before that I was perfectly happy letting myself wander back into the nether from whence I came. Now, things were different...despite my understanding of reality, I had others whom I'd come to love that didn't feel the same way, and I needed to be a supportive member of their reality.

When I was 15 my parents told me they'd buy me a car if I got a part time job to pay for insurance and gas. I'd always enjoyed cooking...although nobody in my family ever did it professionally, I came from a very diverse and active culinary background...my Dad's side of the family was very traditional Italian and Polish, and my Mom's side of the family was German/Dutch, but lived in the South long enough to be heavily influenced. Everybody cooked...I never had anything growing up that wasn't home-made. My natural instinct was to look for a job in the restaurant industry...a friend of mine I went to school with had a father who owned a restaurant, and he got me a job bussing tables. It just so happened his Dad's place was a high-end steakhouse, so I made a killing there bussing tables...I used to pull in $600 a week in 1995 working 15 hours, most of it cash. The business got into my blood...I think now, perhaps it was there all along.

I'm prattling a bit, but follow me...you can make a very good living in restaurant management. VERY good. Even fast food, McDonald's n' shit, pays 50k+, with health insurance and 401k and paid vacations. For management. This is the difference I spoke about earlier...hourlies don't make shit. They're lucky if they get any benefits...after I couldn't take the bullshit anymore and left State employment, I worked at a Winghouse (Hooters rip-off) for a few years...I was salaried there, and after bonus I made roughly 90k/year, with 401k and paid vacations and insurance, and blah blah...but the hourlies there made their hourly rate. 9-11 bucks an hour. And that's it. clock in, make your 9 or 10 bucks an hour while you're on the clock, clock out and go home.

I just recently switched, about 2 months ago, to a restaurant called Longhorn Steakhouse...a chain, yes, but part of the Darden family of restaurants. Darden is the sort of company that takes care of all employees...even hourlies get 401k, paid leave, insurance, etc. Management still gets the sweeter deal, of course...my boss now, someone I've worked with before in another restaurant, is a managing partner...basically her salary comes off the top of the total sales. 2 or 3%...she's making at least a quarter million dollars a year, running a steakhouse in Lakeland. I took a bit of a cut from my 90k at Winghouse, but it's a much better environment, easier workload, and better opportunities for advancement. I plan on being a managing partner myself in a couple years, making that...with just a GED.

It's certainly not all that I'm capable of doing, but it's something that's easy for me that makes me a lot of money at the same time. I've passed on my potential to change the world, and moved on to just being a person who works to provide a stable environment for their kids to maybe change the world.

Ah ha ha. Nihilists.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_29yvYpf4w

Mainly what I was saying is that you and Back are both in restaurant management but just form radically different conclusions from your interactions with your hourly employees. You're in similar jobs so maybe you ought to respect each other a bit more.

I know that serving food/alcohol to the public can generate quite a lot of cash. It's part of why I still work in the family business on the side.

[Thondalar]

Mainly what I was saying is that you and Back are both in restaurant management but just form radically different conclusions from your interactions with your hourly employees. You're in similar jobs so maybe you ought to respect each other a bit more.

That makes no sense. Why would his vocation have any affect on my interpretation of his beliefs? I take his words as he says them, and I would hope he takes mine the same. We're more than our jobs.

[Warriorbird]

That makes no sense. Why would his vocation have any affect on my interpretation of his beliefs? I take his words as he says them, and I would hope he takes mine the same. We're more than our jobs.

Well, choose not to respect him for it if you want, but at the least you should be aware that when you throw out generalized insults about how he's a broke liberal he's probably doing as well as or nearly as well as you are.

[Androidpk]

Was definitely a compliment, dude. And nihilism.. lol. Guilty of that as well.

[Wrathbringer]

But we miss you around here TheE :( not.

I usually don't agree with a word you say because you usually make retarded arguments for your case.

Let's be real, here.

[Warriorbird]

And nihilism.. lol. Guilty of that as well.

Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.

[Androidpk]

Donny: Are these the Nazis, Walter?
Walter Sobchak: No, Donny, these men are nihilists. There's nothing to be afraid of.

Don't laugh but I haven't watched that movie.

[Warriorbird]

Don't laugh but I haven't watched that movie.

Well worth your time.

[Taernath]

Don't laugh but I haven't watched that movie.

Somebody didn't read the PC membership requirements.

[Drevihyin]

This article somewhat proves Obama's legacy.
http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2009-02/presidentsranking

[Parkbandit]

I am pretty out there. I'm a pacifist and, economically, a socialist.

Remember that time where you said you wanted to get a carry permit.. until we reminded you that you are a pacifist?

Good times...

And yes, you are out there.

[Parkbandit]

Mainly what I was saying is that you and Back are both in restaurant management but just form radically different conclusions from your interactions with your hourly employees. You're in similar jobs so maybe you ought to respect each other a bit more.


And we're back to this?

LOL.

[Parkbandit]

Well, choose not to respect him for it if you want, but at the least you should be aware that when you throw out generalized insults about how he's a broke liberal he's probably doing as well as or nearly as well as you are.

WTFx2?

There are many grades of pay within the restaurant community. From $8 an hour (less if you wait on table at a shitty restaurant) to millions of dollars a year.

Just because they both work in the restaurant profession doesn't mean they both make the same amount of money.

[Parkbandit]

This article somewhat proves Obama's legacy.
http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2009-02/presidentsranking

"8 Barack Obama The lefty plays more hoops than golf."

Jesus.. with all that golf practice, you would think he would at least top THIS list...

[Androidpk]

The list is from 2009.

[Parkbandit]

The list is from 2009.

So, maybe he really is the best at something!?!?

Good news.

[Tgo01]

So, maybe he really is the best at something!?!?

According to this article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/13/curl-obamas-one-achievement-outgolfing-tiger-woods/?page=all) Obama is set to surpass Tiger Woods by next year in number of golf games since Jan 2009.

Yes. Our president and commander-in-chief who should be playing golf as a pastime, is set to play more games of golf than someone who plays golf for a living.

[Gelston]

According to this article (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/13/curl-obamas-one-achievement-outgolfing-tiger-woods/?page=all) Obama is set to surpass Tiger Woods by next year in number of golf games since Jan 2009.

Yes. Our president and commander-in-chief who should be playing golf as a pastime, is set to play more games of golf than someone who plays golf for a living.

It says he has just surpassed 200 games... He has played about one game ever 1.5 weeks... That... Doesn't seem bad to me.

[WRoss]

It says he has just surpassed 200 games... He has played about one game ever 1.5 weeks... That... Doesn't seem bad to me.

Don't respond with facts! Facts are literally not relevant to this Obama hate train.

[Tgo01]

It says he has just surpassed 200 games... He has played about one game ever 1.5 weeks... That... Doesn't seem bad to me.

Throw in his vacations, fund raising, television interviews, basketball games (which he apparently plays more basketball games than golf) and I'm not sure how this man finds time to actually be president.

[Gelston]

Throw in his vacations, fund raising, television interviews, basketball games (which he apparently plays more basketball games than golf) and I'm not sure how this man finds time to actually be president.

Television interviews are part of being President. Vacations, he still works though. That is why every President has always had what is called a "West White House." For GWB it was his ranch in Texas, for instance.

[Gelston]

Not saying I agree with Obama, or his policies, or any of that... He isn't really that different from other Presidents in the way he has handled his extracurriculars though.

[Tgo01]

President Obama has held 393 fundraisers in his six years in office (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/07/16/president-obama-has-held-393-fundraisers-in-his-six-years-in-office/)

He did 158 interviews in his first year in office; "far more" than any of his recent predecessors. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamas-first-year-by-the-numbers/)

I'm sure his average number of interviews hasn't gone done much since his first year in office either.

[Gelston]

I see interviews as part of the job. If he is doing more he is communicating more with the American people.

[Tgo01]

I see interviews as part of the job. If he is doing more he is communicating more with the American people.

I think news conferences are different than interviews.

News conferences you (usually) get tough and random questions from reporters. Interviews are usually controlled environments that more or less are talking about the president himself, not what he's doing for our country.

[Gelston]

I think news conferences are different than interviews.

News conferences you (usually) get tough and random questions from reporters. Interviews are usually controlled environments that more or less are talking about the president himself, not what he's doing for our country.

40 of those were newspaper. Yes, they are different from press conferences... Press conferences are generally over one particular subject on the headlines. An interview covers a broader range.

[Parkbandit]

President Obama has held 393 fundraisers in his six years in office (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/07/16/president-obama-has-held-393-fundraisers-in-his-six-years-in-office/)

He did 158 interviews in his first year in office; "far more" than any of his recent predecessors. (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obamas-first-year-by-the-numbers/)

I'm sure his average number of interviews hasn't gone done much since his first year in office either.

I bet they have.. he was very popular the first year.. but people wised up to his "Hope and Change" bullshit.