Another nutty liberal university decision

[Candor]

(CNN) -- Wesleyan University officials announced Monday that residential fraternities will be required to accept women and men as full members.

The policy change comes after consulting fraternity members, alumni and faculty, university spokesperson Kate Carlisle said. There are nonresidential Greek organizations, including one sorority, that will not be affected because they do not have on-campus houses.

"In the end, the decision is based on making our campus as fair, inclusive and equitable as possible, and reflects Wesleyan's tradition of progressive leadership," Carlisle said.

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This is stupidity taken to a new level. What are these idiots smoking?

[Taernath]

The policy change comes after consulting fraternity members

I'll bet.

"You mean we won't have to walk all the way to the sorority anymore? Sign me up bro."

[Silvean]

I read an excellent (and long) article about "the dark power of fraternities" in The Atlantic earlier this year. Wesleyan features prominently and this most recent step will do nothing to fix their very serious problems.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

[Jace Solo]

Lame. I don't think fraternity members were happy. Just cause they were consulted doesn't mean they agreed.
Major blow to the legacy of the system. Sororities are the equality.

What is this about? What are they worried about? Gay members? My fraternity, a major national fraternity, in the south, had gay members.

[Silvean]

I'm sure, on some level, they think this will change the culture of fraternities such that a more inclusive organization becomes a safer organization, i.e. one where sexual assaults are less likely. Universities are often trying to get out front with stuff like this, so they can be branded as the institution defining the cutting edge. In this case, I imagine Wesleyan wants to be seen as the university responding to a national concern over Greek culture through the most dramatic and progressive reforms. Harvard, along with many other schools, opened their academic year with new sexual assault policies as well. I believe this is all partially in response to a call from President Obama: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/20/us/politics/obama-campaign-college-sexual-assaults.html

Universities and schooling are my industry, as it were, so I know a little about how administrators think. The most salient and unsurprising observation is that measures are often taken for appearances without due consideration for their practical efficacy. This may be excusable or at least laughable when the plan is to give every Freshman a free iPad. It's much more problematic when the gloss is being painted onto campus sexual assault and alcohol abuse crises. That said, Wesleyan may be taking a wide range of practical measures to address their issues beyond forcing the on-campus Greeks to go co-ed.

[Ker_Thwap]

I find it stranger that at some colleges, they don't allow alcohol at sororities, and they have house mothers to enforce this kind of stuff, and that young women are perfectly alright with this gender based difference.

[Gelston]

If I was a national Frat, I'd disassociate with that college.

[Atlanteax]

I read an excellent (and long) article about "the dark power of fraternities" in The Atlantic earlier this year. Wesleyan features prominently and this most recent step will do nothing to fix their very serious problems.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

I got to the Jane Doe rape part, and am puzzled as to why she would be willing to hang out with a dude she just met in a bedroom ... dude escaped true criminal justice too. =/
(do a 'find' for the full paragraph starting with "During Halloween")

[Silvean]

I got to the Jane Doe rape part, and am puzzled as to why she would be willing to hang out with a dude she just met in a bedroom

Report makes it sound like it happened very quickly. I don't think it's fair to question or blame the victim.

[Tenlaar]

I don't think it's fair to question or blame the victim.

It's always fair to question the victim.

[Parkbandit]

If I was a national Frat, I'd disassociate with that college.

And have your frat on the front line of the WAR ON WOMANZ!?!

You sexist pig you.

[Silvean]

It's always fair to question the victim.

I meant question her decisions leading up to what happened; a fumbling attempt to avoid 1-to-1 repetition of buzz words even if I think they are accurate. And, to be clear, I am not trying to throw anyone under the bus over victim blaming. What we need to be able to do is pivot from discussions of individual sexual assault cases to discussions of safety without blaming victims.

Women should be able to go where they please and wear what they want without fear of attack. This is unambiguous and clear. I worry the clarity of this is sometimes obscured by broader ideologically-driven conversations over sex and gender roles. If this is so, it is deeply regrettable.

Before marriage, I found myself in a few strange bedrooms with women I had just met. I don't know if it was a wise decision but it seemed like an everyday decision, a normal and consensual decision.

[Tenlaar]

I meant question her decisions leading up to what happened; a fumbling attempt to avoid 1-to-1 repetition of buzz words even if I think they are accurate.

Fair enough. I fully agree victim blaming does no good for anybody, but I believe there should always be questioning (not to mention a trial) before somebody is officially declared a victim. The results of even a fully disproved rape accusation on a man's life can be incredible and many people act as if even investigating to make sure claims are true is, in and of itself, victim blaming.

[Silvean]

The results of even a fully disproved rape accusation on a man's life can be incredible and many people act as if even investigating to make sure claims are true is, in and of itself, victim blaming.

I sometimes teach teaching. I always tell new teachers to leave classroom and office doors open when alone with a student. There are several reasons but it's primarily to keep them above suspicion and protect them from false accusations. It's an unlikely but frightening possibility.

[Tisket]

I sometimes teach teaching. I always tell new teachers to leave classroom and office doors open when alone with a student. There are several reasons but it's primarily to keep them above suspicion and protect them from false accusations. It's an unlikely but frightening possibility.

You know what would protect the teachers (and the students from predatory teachers)? Monitored video cameras in every classroom and office where one on one discussions between student and faculty occur.

[Atlanteax]

I sometimes teach teaching. I always tell new teachers to leave classroom and office doors open when alone with a student. There are several reasons but it's primarily to keep them above suspicion and protect them from false accusations. It's an unlikely but frightening possibility.

So you encourage exercising high caution to protect yourself ... hence my puzzlement at this Jane Doe not having acted more cautiously (sounded like alone with a group of guys in a bedroom, still with the group of guys into another bedroom, not smoking pot nor drinking to avoid inebriation, but hanging out with guys who are actively engaging in inebriation via pot). She was absolutely a victim, but had she stuck with her friends or declined going into a pot-smoking bedroom... ?

[Tenlaar]

She was absolutely a victim, but had she stuck with her friends or declined going into a pot-smoking bedroom... ?

Because as we all know, if there's one thing pot does it's make you rape people.

[Silvean]

You know what would protect the teachers (and the students from predatory teachers)? Monitored video cameras in every classroom and office where one on one discussions between student and faculty occur.

Maybe. I've been video taped a lot as a high school and college teacher. You use the tapes to evaluate your teaching later. I don't know if I would support constant surveillance. It would be tough to justify the money for cameras in poor schools. It's also a bit too Orwellian for my taste; I'm still an educational idealist deep down. I wouldn't own the tapes and they would end up being used for all sorts of research for one thing.

[Silvean]

So you encourage exercising high caution to protect yourself ... hence my puzzlement at this Jane Doe not having acted more cautiously (sounded like alone with a group of guys in a bedroom, still with the group of guys into another bedroom, not smoking pot nor drinking to avoid inebriation, but hanging out with guys who are actively engaging in inebriation via pot). She was absolutely a victim, but had she stuck with her friends or declined going into a pot-smoking bedroom... ?

There are two differences. One: the difference between talking about a hypothetical event before the fact and an actual event afterward. Two: teachers are professionals and held to different standards of training and action.

[Tisket]

Maybe. I've been video taped a lot as a high school and college teacher. You use the tapes to evaluate your teaching later. I don't know if I would support constant surveillance. It would be tough to justify the money for cameras in poor schools. It's also a bit too Orwellian for my taste; I'm still an educational idealist deep down. I wouldn't own the tapes and they would end up being used for all sorts of research for one thing.

It's the one place that I believe constant surveillance should occur. Especially in grade schools. Any situation that involves young children being shut up for hours in a room with one adult, Jesus, why is it even a question.

edit: there is a day care near here that has virtual streaming. They give parents a code and the they can log in at any time and view what's happening. I wouldn't mind seeing that in schools.

[Silvean]

It's the one place that I believe constant surveillance should occur. Especially in grade schools. Any situation that involves young children being shut up for hours in a room with one adult, Jesus, why is it even a question.

edit: there is a day care near here that has virtual streaming. They give parents a code and the they can log in at any time and view what's happening. I wouldn't mind seeing that in schools.

It makes more sense to me in elementary schools but I don't know anything about elementary schools. I was once a tutor for 4th graders in New Orleans and they barely had books, so there's little chance of getting cameras in that district.

[Ker_Thwap]

I got to the Jane Doe rape part, and am puzzled as to why she would be willing to hang out with a dude she just met in a bedroom ... dude escaped true criminal justice too. =/
(do a 'find' for the full paragraph starting with "During Halloween")

Eh, sometimes part of the party moves to different rooms when you don't want to share your weed with everyone. Maybe she thought he was cute and just wanted to make out with him for a bit. Had it been a guy who was raped, would you be asking why he wandered away from the main party with someone he thought was interesting?

I'll never understand why campus police have different procedures/rules/whatever than town/city police.

[Tenlaar]

Yeah, my little cousin's high school can't even afford enough books for her to be able to bring them home with her. I don't see an extensive security camera system happening any time soon.

[Candor]

there is a day care near here that has virtual streaming. They give parents a code and the they can log in at any time and view what's happening.

That's one of the best ideas I have heard of in quite awhile - a daycare center with virtual streaming. I hope that idea expands greatly.

[Tisket]

Yeah, my little cousin's high school can't even afford enough books for her to be able to bring them home with her. I don't see an extensive security camera system happening any time soon.

I don't believe that cost is an insurmountable obstacle though. This is an interesting read:

http://techonomy.com/2013/06/every-classroom-needs-a-camera-and-heres-why/



In a recent TED talk, Bill Gates advocated placing a camera in every classroom to help teachers be more effective. He estimates the price of ubiquitous classroom cameras at $5 billion, less than 2% of what the U.S. spends on teacher salaries and benefits. The effects of putting a camera in every classroom can be far-reaching and powerful, but the cost could be far less than what Gates estimates. Cameras combined with other technology can revolutionize education at a modest expense.


These days, cameras are everywhere. Across the country, red light cameras enforce traffic laws in over 500 communities—at almost $50,000 each. New York City is investing hundreds of millions in a “ring of steel” street-level camera system to aid counter-terrorism. Stores, shopping malls, and gas stations capture our every move. It starts early; many parents even use “baby cams” to make sure their newborns are sleeping safely.


But cameras remain rare in a place they may improve society most—the classroom. In universities and colleges today, once a lecture is delivered, it is gone. The majority of academic institutions still operate in an “all analog” world, struggling to harness technology to capture content and deploy it in new and better ways.


Let’s imagine every classroom installed a camera (and software) that could record, store, and manage the lecture and materials so they were available to students anytime and anywhere on any device. What improvements would that bring? The universities and colleges that have done just that using Echo360’s edutech software (in which my firm, Revolution Growth, is an investor) have improved student outcomes and instructor efficiency. More students pass the class, and with higher grades. Fewer teachers are required for entry-level classes, and valuable time is spent on more personalized instruction.


With lecture capture and playback, students who might have missed class that day (due to sickness, work, athletics, interviews, or oversleep) do not lose out on that learning. For students who might not understand a particular concept, the opportunity to re-watch part of the lecture, just as they would re-read a section of a textbook, is extremely valuable. Teachers no longer have to give the same lecture over and over and over. Instead, they can perfect it, record it, and have students watch before class. This “flipped classroom” moves the “data dump” portion of the lecture out of the classroom, freeing up class time for high-value discussion and interaction. Even something as mundane as office hours, which students often miss, are transformed: Students can post questions online, and instructors can stream video-recorded explanations to the whole class.


This all seems great. The good news is that for higher ed the path to ubiquitous adoption can be relatively fast. Installing a camera in every classroom costs almost nothing, since just about every classroom in higher education is already equipped with a PC, at least by video-enabled devices brought in by students and instructors. The cost of a software system that records, hosts, manages, and streams the lecture to students? The same as two lattes per student per year. For about $10 per student per year* (or $20,000 for a 2,000 student college), a university can make this happen. The average tuition is now almost $40,000 per year. If a student misses class, or does not understand part of the lecture that day? Tough luck. But for $10 of that $40,000, the university could “plug in the classroom,” and revolutionize learning.


Donn Davis co-leads Revolution Growth, which invests in and helps build innovative and impactful companies, including Echo360, Lolly Wolly Doodle, Resonate and FedBid.


*estimated market cost of installing a blended learning solution

[Tenlaar]

That's awesome and all, but if they are going to pump more money into the school system I would prefer it goes to having enough qualified teachers and...you know...having enough books for everybody before it gets spent on cameras.

[Silvean]

Yes, the "flipped classroom" is a popular topic in higher education right now. Some students have reported feeling cheated by video lectures since they don't perceive the replacement classroom activities as "real teaching."

For me, real teaching is about building a community and setting goals. Technology should be employed in service to those ends. So, I'm cautiously supportive of Gates' idea but it's not a simple matter.

More abstractly, there is some merit to the living presence of the teacher in seminars and lectures that is not captured on video. I'm loathe to dismiss that as unimportant.

[Candor]

That's awesome and all, but if they are going to pump more money into the school system I would prefer it goes to having enough qualified teachers and...you know...having enough books for everybody before it gets spent on cameras.

Agree. Cameras, while a great idea (especially at the elementary level), need to be a lower priority than most other school needs.

[Tgo01]

That's awesome and all, but if they are going to pump more money into the school system I would prefer it goes to having enough qualified teachers and...you know...having enough books for everybody before it gets spent on cameras.

I think a safe learning environment is more important than books. That may sound weird but if a student doesn't feel safe at school then all the books in the world isn't going to help them learn.

Cameras can't stop abuse but they can certainly help prevent future abuse. It's not just keeping an eye on teachers either, getting little pieces of shit bullying other students on film so they can be expelled would go a long way towards fostering a safe learning environment as well.

This is part of the problem with our school systems too. They have fooled everyone in believing that there just isn't money left in the budget for anything and everyone believes them so nothing ever gets done because everyone knows schools are broke. Bullshit. Schools have all sorts of waste and mismanagement problems. I bet if people actually started holding schools accountable for their shit instead of just buying into the story that every school in America is broke then I bet we could have a camera in every classroom and playground within 3 years, without dumping more money into school systems.

[Tenlaar]

I think a safe learning environment is more important than books. That may sound weird but if a student doesn't feel safe at school then all the books in the world isn't going to help them learn.

Without qualified teachers and books you don't have a learning environment to keep safe. You just have daycare.

[Tisket]

That's awesome and all, but if they are going to pump more money into the school system I would prefer it goes to having enough qualified teachers and...you know...having enough books for everybody before it gets spent on cameras.

So technology in the classroom should default to the lowest common denominator? Sure there are poor schools but does that mean we should stop forward progress in all schools?

Also, I think digital textbooks will replace actual textbooks eventually. Think of all the trees we will save!

[Tenlaar]

So technology in the classroom should default to the lowest common denominator? Sure there are poor schools but does that mean we should stop forward progress in all schools?

Not at all, but your statements have not been limited to affluent schools. If a school already has plenty of qualified teachers and the material needs of each and every student completely taken care of with spare money to spend, sure, have the camera debate. That is unfortunately not the case for the majority of public schools, so I don't believe it is something that people should be worrying about or especially starting to demand based on the fear of their children being molestered right now. Most schools still need to be worried about being able to actually provide an education.

[Tisket]

Not at all, but your statements have not been limited to affluent schools. If a school already has plenty of qualified teachers and the material needs of each and every student completely taken care of with spare money to spend, sure, have the camera debate. That is unfortunately not the case for the majority of public schools, so I don't believe it is something that people should be worrying about or especially starting to demand based on the fear of their children being molestered right now. Most schools still need to be worried about being able to actually provide an education.

Progress is never accomplished by waiting for all the stars to align and conditions to be perfect everywhere.

[Tgo01]

Without qualified teachers and books you don't have a learning environment to keep safe. You just have daycare.

And without safety you have no learning environment at all. We can go back and forth all day.

[Latrinsorm]

You know what would protect the teachers (and the students from predatory teachers)? Monitored video cameras in every classroom and office where one on one discussions between student and faculty occur.Yessss, yessss.
Because as we all know, if there's one thing pot does it's make you rape people.I think it's fair to say that pot (and alcohol, as Atlanteax also mentioned) reduces inhibitions. Surely we agree that rape is an inhibited behavior?
Yeah, my little cousin's high school can't even afford enough books for her to be able to bring them home with her. I don't see an extensive security camera system happening any time soon.Fear not, our eternal friend and ally the federal government will provide.
Not at all, but your statements have not been limited to affluent schools. If a school already has plenty of qualified teachers and the material needs of each and every student completely taken care of with spare money to spend, sure, have the camera debate. That is unfortunately not the case for the majority of public schools, so I don't believe it is something that people should be worrying about or especially starting to demand based on the fear of their children being molestered right now. Most schools still need to be worried about being able to actually provide an education.Which is a worse fate, being molested or being uneducated? This is a serious question for you to answer. I know which way I would go, but I'd like to hear your response.

[Jeril]

You guys talk about all the good, but what about all the bad? The enforcement of any and all petty arbitrary rules the school makes. Not to mention because it will be part of a system some sick fucks will be able to hack in and use the video feeds for their own pleasure.

[Androidpk]

Progress is never accomplished by waiting for all the stars to align and conditions to be perfect everywhere.

I think this is the smartest thing I've seen you say.

[Tisket]

You guys talk about all the good, but what about all the bad? The enforcement of any and all petty arbitrary rules the school makes. Not to mention because it will be part of a system some sick fucks will be able to hack in and use the video feeds for their own pleasure.

Well there are sick fucks who drive slowly through school zones hoping to see kids. Should we arrest them? What have they done? If one of them gets pleasure from watching a fully clothed student doing schoolwork, well they can find that anywhere.

[Latrinsorm]

You guys talk about all the good, but what about all the bad? The enforcement of any and all petty arbitrary rules the school makes. Not to mention because it will be part of a system some sick fucks will be able to hack in and use the video feeds for their own pleasure.I guess it depends on how bad you think child molestation is relative to those other phenomena. To me (and I think to most), it is so much worse that the bad you describe isn't even worth mentioning. Kind of like comparing the benefits and drawbacks of a seat belt: it will save you from catastrophic physical injury up to and including death, but it's kinda itchy. Do you see?

[Tisket]

I think this is the smartest thing I've seen you say.

You are one ahead of me then.

[Jeril]

I guess it depends on how bad you think child molestation is relative to those other phenomena. To me (and I think to most), it is so much worse that the bad you describe isn't even worth mentioning. Kind of like comparing the benefits and drawbacks of a seat belt: it will save you from catastrophic physical injury up to and including death, but it's kinda itchy. Do you see?

There are other affects, like this leading to the land you want, we are never going to agree on that one. Other people won't see it and I am sure if this happened you'd be rubbing your hands in greedy anticipation about what this means for the future. Sadly the U.S. will probably end up that way because a lot more people are starting to think like you. They'd rather give up every freedom to feel safe then deal with conflict in any form.

[Tenlaar]

Progress is never accomplished by waiting for all the stars to align and conditions to be perfect everywhere.

I don't believe that first wanting to have enough qualified teachers and enough books for the students counts as "waiting for all the stars to align and conditions to be perfect." It is wanting conditions to be at the bare minimum to provide a real education before you move on to other things.

[Wrathbringer]

I don't believe that first wanting to have enough qualified teachers and enough books for the students counts as "waiting for all the stars to align and conditions to be perfect." It is wanting conditions to be at the bare minimum to provide a real education before you move on to other things.

Agreed.

[Latrinsorm]

There are other affects, like this leading to the land you want, we are never going to agree on that one. Other people won't see it and I am sure if this happened you'd be rubbing your hands in greedy anticipation about what this means for the future. Sadly the U.S. will probably end up that way because a lot more people are starting to think like you. They'd rather give up every freedom to feel safe then deal with conflict in any form.I get it. But surely you can see why the end of child molestation is something that fills me with anticipation.
1. It would be the best thing, by far, human society has ever accomplished.
2. It would (further) demonstrate the path to solving all the other horrible problems we are still faced with.

I recognize that people like you are by and large still going to believe what you believe, which is why I put further in parentheses. Change comes at the fringes, though, and every example pushes those fringes a little further.

[Wrathbringer]

I get it. But surely you can see why the end of child molestation is something that fills me with anticipation.
1. It would be the best thing, by far, human society has ever accomplished.
2. It would (further) demonstrate the path to solving all the other horrible problems we are still faced with.

I recognize that people like you are by and large still going to believe what you believe, which is why I put further in parentheses. Change comes at the fringes, though, and every example pushes those fringes a little further.

You can't end molestation with a camera. Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Latrinsorm]

You can't end molestation with a camera. Sorry to burst your bubble.Obviously we can't establish national surveillance with a single camera. We'd need at least two or three.

[Tisket]

I don't believe that first wanting to have enough qualified teachers and enough books for the students counts as "waiting for all the stars to align and conditions to be perfect." It is wanting conditions to be at the bare minimum to provide a real education before you move on to other things.

Believe it or not, there are school districts who have enough qualified teachers and books for students. But by all means, let's not start until every single school catches up.

[Jeril]

I get it. But surely you can see why the end of child molestation is something that fills me with anticipation.
1. It would be the best thing, by far, human society has ever accomplished.
2. It would (further) demonstrate the path to solving all the other horrible problems we are still faced with.

I recognize that people like you are by and large still going to believe what you believe, which is why I put further in parentheses. Change comes at the fringes, though, and every example pushes those fringes a little further.

There are better ways to improve society but they take real work.

Also, Hansel and Gretel thought going into the gingerbread house was a good idea, just because things look a certain way doesn't mean they actually are.

[Tisket]

There are other affects, like this leading to the land you want, we are never going to agree on that one. Other people won't see it and I am sure if this happened you'd be rubbing your hands in greedy anticipation about what this means for the future. Sadly the U.S. will probably end up that way because a lot more people are starting to think like you. They'd rather give up every freedom to feel safe then deal with conflict in any form.

Anybody that knows me knows that I am a staunch advocate for personal liberty and rights. How are cameras in a school going to change anyone's rights though?

[Wrathbringer]

There are better ways to improve society but they take real work.

Also, Hansel and Gretel thought going into the gingerbread house was a good idea, just because things look a certain way doesn't mean they actually are.

If that witch had cameras, they'd have been safe there. Right latrinsorm?

[Tisket]

I've got to leave for work soon so my involvement in this conversation will be limited for the rest of the day. I blame the cameras in my workplace for keeping me down!

[Androidpk]

I've got to leave for work soon so my involvement in this conversation will be limited for the rest of the day. I blame the cameras in my workplace for keeping me down!

At least we can all rest assured knowing you won't be molesting anybody. Bummer.

[Gelston]

I've got to leave for work soon so my involvement in this conversation will be limited for the rest of the day. I blame the cameras in my workplace for keeping me down!

Gotta get to that street corner?

[Tenlaar]

Which is a worse fate, being molested or being uneducated? This is a serious question for you to answer. I know which way I would go, but I'd like to hear your response.

Unfortunately you cannot tackle the problem as a 1:1 issue. I'll probably catch some flak for it, but honestly? I think that a hundred kids having a poor excuse for an education is worse than a few of them being abused in some manner.

As near as I can see by reported numbers, somewhere between three and six percent is where children sexually abused in school is. I am of course ignoring the numbers from some child abuse prevention organizations which seem grossly inflated compared to the rest. It also includes ALL possible forms of sexual abuse, not limited to actual physical contact - it includes exhibitionism, voyeurism, exposure to porn. And about half of that occurs before the age of five. While I do believe that greater attention should be paid to elementary schools, I think that most high schools need to worry about being actual sources of education first and foremost.

I will also say that I think having enough, and well qualified, teachers will itself help with the problem as well.

[Tenlaar]

Believe it or not, there are school districts who have enough qualified teachers and books for students. But by all means, let's not start until every single school catches up.


Not at all, but your statements have not been limited to affluent schools. If a school already has plenty of qualified teachers and the material needs of each and every student completely taken care of with spare money to spend, sure, have the camera debate.

I know you don't like me on a personal level, but at least read what I post if you are going to attack it.

[Tisket]

Gotta get to that street corner?

My johns count on my punctuality.

[Tisket]

I know you don't like me on a personal level, but at least read what I post if you are going to attack it.

Hey, I thought we were having an adult discussion about a subject that interests me. Because I disagree with your stance means I am attacking you?

Grow up (THAT'S an attack.)

[Tenlaar]

Hey, I thought we were having an adult discussion about a subject that interests me. Because I disagree with your stance means I am attacking you?

Grow up (THAT'S an attack.)

Ok, at least read what I post before you start making snide remarks about it. Does that make you feel better?

[Tisket]

Ok, at least read what I post before you start making snide remarks about it. Does that make you feel better?

So disagreeing with someone's premise is being snide? Just trying to get a handle on what you view as acceptable disagreement.

[Tisket]

Hey it turns out all you people who've disagreed with me over the years are a bunch of snide assholes!

lol

[Androidpk]

Well that's ​a complete surprise.

[Latrinsorm]

There are better ways to improve society but they take real work.

Also, Hansel and Gretel thought going into the gingerbread house was a good idea, just because things look a certain way doesn't mean they actually are.I agree: just because it looks like cameras would take our rights doesn't mean they actually will. :)
Unfortunately you cannot tackle the problem as a 1:1 issue. I'll probably catch some flak for it, but honestly? I think that a hundred kids having a poor excuse for an education is worse than a few of them being abused in some manner.

As near as I can see by reported numbers, somewhere between three and six percent is where children sexually abused in school is. I am of course ignoring the numbers from some child abuse prevention organizations which seem grossly inflated compared to the rest. It also includes ALL possible forms of sexual abuse, not limited to actual physical contact - it includes exhibitionism, voyeurism, exposure to porn. And about half of that occurs before the age of five. While I do believe that greater attention should be paid to elementary schools, I think that most high schools need to worry about being actual sources of education first and foremost.I would say that an uneducated person can become educated, while an abused child carries that with them the rest of their life. I would further say that the consequences of child abuse are dramatically worse than the consequences of being uneducated. One path is permanent extreme harm, the other is temporary moderate harm. I would put the combination of these factors at much higher than your 20:1 ratio, although I recognize that number strikes you as high enough.

You're also gonna be in big trouble if Thondalar finds out you ignored data because you didn't believe it. I'm just letting you know.
I will also say that I think having enough, and well qualified, teachers will itself help with the problem as well.You think a teacher being well qualified is mutually exclusive with a teacher being a child molester?

[Tisket]

Uh oh. pk broke out the italics.

[Androidpk]

pk > PK

[Candor]

Be careful or I'll start using boldface font...and none of us want that...

[Warriorbird]

It's the one place that I believe constant surveillance should occur. Especially in grade schools. Any situation that involves young children being shut up for hours in a room with one adult, Jesus, why is it even a question.

edit: there is a day care near here that has virtual streaming. They give parents a code and the they can log in at any time and view what's happening. I wouldn't mind seeing that in schools.

I wouldn't either. The issue is more the people to look at the surveillance.

[Tenlaar]

I would say that an uneducated person can become educated, while an abused child carries that with them the rest of their life.
Uneducated people rarely become educated later in life, it tends to be something they carry for the rest of their life as well.

I would further say that the consequences of child abuse are dramatically worse than the consequences of being uneducated. One path is permanent extreme harm, the other is temporary moderate harm.
Many people who suffer abuse as children grow to, for lack of a better phrase, get over it and become well adjusted adults. Permanent extreme harm is discounting any ability for people to overcome bad experiences. Being uneducated is rarely a temporary problem and brings more than moderate harm for many people.

I would put the combination of these factors at much higher than your 20:1 ratio, although I recognize that number strikes you as high enough.
Yeah, I know I don't have much of that empathy stuff. 95 well educated and 5 abused is better to me than 0 abused and 100 poorly educated. And then there is the possibility that somebody who does suffer some form of abuse can still be well educated, helping them overcome their problems!

You think a teacher being well qualified is mutually exclusive with a teacher being a child molester?
Not mutually exclusive. I said it would help, not fix. I do believe it makes it less likely.

[Tenlaar]

So disagreeing with someone's premise is being snide? Just trying to get a handle on what you view as acceptable disagreement.

Ok, we'll just pretend your shitty attitude didn't start to show through in that post and move on.

At least bother to read what I post before you disagree with it.

[Silvean]

Thinking from the perspective of a high school teacher, constant surveillance with audio would raise the following issues for me:

1. Teaching frays the nerves and it's even harder when an administrator is staring at you from the back of the room. I taught high school for one year in NC and personally witnessed 3 people crack under the pressure; I once had to take over a class because a guy broke down in the middle of it. I feel like a camera could intensify that and make it difficult to be at ease in the classroom. Teachers dealing with BS from administrators rely on being able to go into their classroom and set their own agenda to some degree without constant oversight. They are professionals and deserve this right.

2. School administrations sometimes enforce rules too strictly and the camera could erase all latitude I have in the classroom. I once had a student tell me to fuck off. I was able to take her into the hallway and defuse the situation; she was angry about childcare issues, she was 15 and her child was 2. I was able to keep her in my class that day, a camera and a principal might have seen her suspended.

3. High school teachers should enjoy some degree of academic freedom and surveillance could eradicate this. Could politicians review the tapes? Could parents? What if they dislike my interpretation of the Israel-Palestine crisis despite my best efforts to present both sides? What if they dislike that my Civil War lesson doesn't champion the lost cause of the Confederacy?

4. It's Orwellian. Teaches students to accept cameras everywhere.

5. I don't know how the footage would be used. Would my students and I become the subjects of countless research studies without any real consent beyond some nearly mandatory form at the beginning of our relationship with the school system?

6. Back to academic freedom; would the students be scared to speak their minds?

7. This may be covered under rules and latitude but sometimes the whole room is stressed and you just want to tell jokes for 10 minutes. Could some principal see that tape and bring a hammer down on me?

I'm not saying I could not be persuaded by certain positives, but this is the other side of the argument just off the top of my head. Off to Chipotle.

[Warriorbird]

Thinking from the perspective of a high school teacher, constant surveillance with audio would raise the following issues for me:

1. Teaching frays the nerves and it's even harder when an administrator is staring at you from the back of the room. I taught high school for one year in NC and personally witnessed 3 people crack under the pressure; I once had to take over a class because a guy broke down in the middle of it. I feel like a camera could intensify that and make it difficult to be at ease in the classroom. Teachers dealing with BS from administrators rely on being able to go into their classroom and set their own agenda to some degree without constant oversight. They are professionals and deserve this right.

2. School administrations sometimes enforce rules too strictly and the camera could erase all latitude I have in the classroom. I once had a student tell me to fuck off. I was able to take her into the hallway and defuse the situation; she was angry about childcare issues, she was 15 and her child was 2. I was able to keep her in my class that day, a camera and a principal might have seen her suspended.

3. High school teachers should enjoy some degree of academic freedom and surveillance could eradicate this. Could politicians review the tapes? Could parents? What if they dislike my interpretation of the Israel-Palestine crisis despite my best efforts to present both sides? What if they dislike that my Civil War lesson doesn't champion the lost cause of the Confederacy?

4. It's Orwellian. Teaches students to accept cameras everywhere.

5. I don't know how the footage would be used. Would my students and I become the subjects of countless research studies without any real consent beyond some nearly mandatory form at the beginning of our relationship with the school system?

6. Back to academic freedom; would the students be scared to speak their minds?

7. This may be covered under rules and latitude but sometimes the whole room is stressed and you just want to tell jokes for 10 minutes. Could some principal see that tape and bring a hammer down on me?

I'm not saying I could not be persuaded by certain positives, but this is the other side of the argument just off the top of my head. Off to Chipotle.

As another high school teacher I can't help but think back to the time during my student teaching where I had the camera on in my classroom. I've never had better behaved students.

[Silvean]

As another high school teacher I can't help but think back to the time during my student teaching where I had the camera on in my classroom. I've never had better behaved students.

They'd get used to it up in the corner every day.

[Atlanteax]

As another high school teacher I can't help but think back to the time during my student teaching where I had the camera on in my classroom. I've never had better behaved students.

Student behavior is probably the greatest limiting factor in the classroom.
(then it is having books ... and 'qualified' teachers)

Distracting/Obstructive/Difficult students hold back the rest of the classroom that is interested/willing to learn.

[Warriorbird]

They'd get used to it up in the corner every day.

You'd think that. You'd be surprised. If it's not checked, that's different. They knew I was reviewing it every single day.


Student behavior is probably the greatest limiting factor in the classroom.
(then it is having books ... and 'qualified' teachers)

Distracting/Obstructive/Difficult students hold back the rest of the classroom that is interested/willing to learn.

I agree. Today I had 28 students do fascinating work that truly amazed me. I had them do work that was theirs and involved critical thinking.

Two other kids broke markers on each other and covered the corner of the lab in ink.

[Silvean]

Student behavior is probably the greatest limiting factor in the classroom.
(then it is having books ... and 'qualified' teachers)

Distracting/Obstructive/Difficult students hold back the rest of the classroom that is interested/willing to learn.

One of the biggest differences between regular and "honors or whatever" classes in a lot of schools is discipline. I didn't have to put out fires all of the time in the honors classes. Good planning and respect for students solves a lot of discipline problems though.

[Warriorbird]

One of the biggest differences between regular and "honors or whatever" classes in a lot of schools is discipline. I didn't have to put out fires all of the time in the honors classes. Good planning and respect for students solves a lot of discipline problems though.

I have an inclusion class with no inclusion teacher. I have 8 students above the suggested total for the room. You likely had more staff/funding if that was the experience.

Most years I have an incompetent guidance staff stuffing my AP classes as well. This year, thankfully, I have two excellent classes.

[Taernath]

10% of your students/subordinates take up 90% of your time.

[Silvean]

I have an inclusion class with no inclusion teacher. I have 8 students above the suggested total for the room. You likely had more staff/funding if that was the experience.

Most years I have an incompetent guidance staff stuffing my AP classes as well. This year, thankfully, I have two excellent classes.

I think it's a general principle that teachers who plan their lessons and avoid escalating conflicts have less discipline problems but it doesn't solve everything. Crowding is disastrous. Two crazed students can cause enormous problems. But you know all this stuff. I miss high school teaching sometimes, and may return to it, but it is an extremely tough job.

One of the ongoing problems is that a lot of schools base class selection off of seniority and give the most difficult students to teachers fresh out of college. Some schools adjust for this -- wisely so.

On a topic relevant to the beginning of this thread, I just heard that Clemson has suspended all of its frat activities after a student death:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/clemson-suspends-fraternity-activities-25726102

[Warriorbird]

I think it's a general principle that teachers who plan their lessons and avoid escalating conflicts have less discipline problems but it doesn't solve everything. Crowding is disastrous. Two crazed students can cause enormous problems. But you know all this stuff. I miss high school teaching sometimes, and may return to it, but it is an extremely tough job.

One of the ongoing problems is that a lot of schools base class selection off of seniority and give the most difficult students to teachers fresh out of college. Some schools adjust for this -- wisely so.

On a topic relevant to the beginning of this thread, I just heard that Clemson has suspended all of its frat activities after a student death:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/clemson-suspends-fraternity-activities-25726102

Crowding, lack of staffing, yeah. I'll likely shift where I'm teaching at eventually. For me it's mainly so I can feel that I do some activity that benefits society. Not true for most of my colleagues though.

That frat death is more than a bit creepy. The rumors going around are just rumors as far as people are currently concerned, but if true, bleah.

[Wrathbringer]

You'd think that. You'd be surprised. If it's not checked, that's different. They knew I was reviewing it every single day.



I agree. Today I had 28 students do fascinating work that truly amazed me. I had them do work that was theirs and involved critical thinking.

Two other kids broke markers on each other and covered the corner of the lab in ink.

Without the unintelligent cretins, we'd have no infantry to die in our retarded wars so show some respect, eh?

[Latrinsorm]

Uneducated people rarely become educated later in life, it tends to be something they carry for the rest of their life as well.

Many people who suffer abuse as children grow to, for lack of a better phrase, get over it and become well adjusted adults. Permanent extreme harm is discounting any ability for people to overcome bad experiences. Being uneducated is rarely a temporary problem and brings more than moderate harm for many people.This is an unfounded inference, and one I think I can disprove neatly. Suppose I cut off your leg and put it in a wood chipper, making reattachment impossible and voiding my warranty. Certainly you can overcome this bad experience with a prosthetic. Does that imply I did you no permanent harm? Look, you stupid bastard, you've got one leg!

As for the % of people who go on to become educated, all I said was they can. Nobody can become unabused, they can only learn to manage the trauma if they're very lucky. Or, of course, not.
They'd get used to it up in the corner every day.If this applies to the benefit of them being well behaved, why wouldn't it apply to the detriment of them (and you) being intimidated? What's good for the goose is good for the Orwellian crypto-fascism.

[Silvean]

If this applies to the benefit of them being well behaved, why wouldn't it apply to the detriment of them (and you) being intimidated? What's good for the goose is good for the Orwellian crypto-fascism.

Correct. It may be possible for both students and teacher to get used to and ignore a camera in the corner of a classroom. This would invalidate some but not all of the concerns I rattled off in an earlier post.

It may be the case, however, that students about to cause a major discipline problem are extremely irate about something and the camera would not be a deterrent in the least. A teacher and students about to say something both legitimate and controversial may remain acutely intimidated by the camera since they are not running hot. This reconciles the seemingly contradictory statements.

As I mentioned earlier, I have filmed myself teaching and it may have cut down on some behavior problems. I am not so certain that it was the camera itself as opposed to the desire of my students to do me a solid by straightening up on an unusual day when I was being evaluated or needed the film for some other professional reason.

A final comment on discipline. I was a poor high school student in a poor high school. When I wanted to blow off class, I did. When I wanted to get in a fight, I got in a fight. I had no parenting or consequences at home and filmed classes wouldn't have made a bit of difference. I behaved best for teachers I respected and had a relationship with and that's the experience which informs my own classroom practice as both a high school and college educator. There's more to it but this is always my first principle.

[Ker_Thwap]

I'm just picturing helicopter parents glued to a monitor. My baby raised her hand first , why didn't you pick her to answer the question?! I'm calling my lawyer!

[Silvean]

I'm just picturing helicopter parents glued to a monitor. My baby raised her hand first , why didn't you pick her to answer the question?! I'm calling my lawyer!

Ha. You know, I thought one of the many interesting observations in that Atlantic article was its recognition of the contradictory desires of the helicopter fraternity parent. They want their kids to have the same wild college experiences they had but they want this all done in an environment of supervised safety with the university acting in loco parentis.

Author writes, "Boomers, who in their own days destroyed the doctrine of in loco parentis so that they could party in blissful, unsupervised freedom, have grown up into the helicopter parents of today, holding fiercely to a pair of mutually exclusive desires: on the one hand that their kids get to experience the same unfettered personal freedoms of college that they remember so fondly, and on the other that the colleges work hard to protect the physical and emotional well-being of their precious children."

And, just to give you a sense of the crap universities deal with; I went to a meeting last night about neighborhood anger over partying students. This stuff keeps the university tied up in perpetual lawsuits and costs us MILLIONS. When a university is in an elite neighborhood, it is an attractive target for litigation in a sea of extremely skilled lawyers. That's before we even get to the parents and whatever problems they may have.

[Tenlaar]

This is an unfounded inference, and one I think I can disprove neatly.

I think many people who have overcome abuse in their past would have a problem with your assertion that no matter what they say, they are forever damaged.

[Warriorbird]

Without the unintelligent cretins, we'd have no infantry to die in our retarded wars so show some respect, eh?

It'd certainly play into your elitism/Bell Curve shtick if that were the case but neither of these children would ever be allowed to join the military. They have standards.

[Latrinsorm]

I think many people who have overcome abuse in their past would have a problem with your assertion that no matter what they say, they are forever damaged.Both my personal conversations with survivors and the literature I've read back the assertion up. You're reading something into it that isn't there. Consider these quotes:

"The effects of childhood sexual and physical abuse last a lifetime." some doctor (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-mendelson-md/the-lasting-damage-of-chi_b_4515918.html)

"...science shows that childhood maltreatment may produce changes in both brain function and structure. These changes are permanent. This is not something people can just get over and get on with their lives." some other doctor (http://www.4therapy.com/news/also-news/child-abuse-can-cause-permanent-damage-brain-body-and-emotional-well-being-2457)

"Child abuse and neglect have been shown to cause important regions of the brain to fail to form or grow properly, resulting in impaired development. These alterations in brain maturation have long-term consequences for cognitive, language, and academic abilities and are connected with mental health disorders (Tarullo, 2012)." some organization (https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/long_term_consequences.pdf#page=3&view=Physical Health Consequences)

"In one long-term study, as many as 80 percent of young adults who had been abused met the diagnostic criteria for at least one psychiatric disorder at age 21." the gubbmint (http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childmaltreatment/consequences.html)

Obviously people can mitigate this damage in the same way that they can obtain a prosthetic leg, and with the miracle of modern psychiatry and a lot of luck they can be functioning members of society in the same way that a person with one leg can nevertheless walk on two. If you want to say that because of that neither of those scenarios constitute permanent harm, I'm puzzled by your definition but it is at least consistent. I look at how much farther all that effort could have carried them if they hadn't been abused, and it fucking pisses me off.