Court okays banning American flag in schools

[Tgo01]

You read that right. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/27/justice/california-school-american-flag-shirts/)



A California school that stopped students from wearing American flag T-shirts on Cinco de Mayo didn't violate their constitutional rights, an appeals court ruled Thursday.

The school's approach, according to the appeals court, kept students safe in a climate of racial tension.

"The controversy and tension remained," a panel of judges from the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals said in their opinion, "but the school's actions presciently avoided an altercation."

School officials were worried about violence and disruption of school activities "and their response was tailored to the circumstance," the opinion said.

The case dates back to May 5, 2010, when the principal of Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, California, asked a group of students wearing American flag T-shirts to turn their shirts inside out or take them off.

The students at the Northern California school refused, according to the appeals court's summary of the case, and later brought a civil rights suit against the school and two administrators, arguing that their rights to freedom of expression, equal protection and due process had been violated.

Judges said the civil rights case forced them to weigh the difficult question of what takes precedence: students' free speech rights or school safety concerns?

According to court documents, the incident occurred amid "ongoing racial tension and gang violence within the school, and after a near-violent altercation had erupted during the prior Cinco de Mayo over the display of an American flag."

The previous year, court documents said, a group of students carrying a Mexican flag had clashed with students who hung an American flag from a tree and chanted "USA" on Cinco de Mayo, a holiday marking a famous Mexican military battle that is often celebrated in the United States.

In 2010, the appeals court said, "threats issued in the aftermath of the incident were so real that the parents of the students involved in the suit kept them home from school two days later."

So if I'm understanding this correctly...Mexican students threatened kids wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo, school officials punished the students with the American Flag apparel and the courts took the school's side? So in other words they all took the side of the dangerous, law breaking and bullying Mexican students?

It seems to me if Cinco de Mayo is such a cause for violence at this school then perhaps it's time to ban Cinco de Mayo at schools? But naww! That might be racially insensitive! Let's just give in to the demands of threats and violence!

[Wrathbringer]

You read that right. (http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/27/justice/california-school-american-flag-shirts/)



So if I'm understanding this correctly...Mexican students threatened kids wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo, school officials punished the students with the American Flag apparel and the courts took the school's side? So in other words they all took the side of the dangerous, law breaking and bullying Mexican students?

It seems to me if Cinco de Mayo is such a cause for violence at this school then perhaps it's time to ban Cinco de Mayo at schools? But naww! That might be racially insensitive! Let's just give in to the demands of threats and violence!

They're Mexicans. Not sure what everyone expected when they were allowed to enroll. It's CA. They probably aren't even American citizens.

[Tgo01]

They're Mexicans. Not sure what everyone expected when they were allowed to enroll. It's CA. They probably aren't even American citizens.

I think the funny part is that Cinco de Mayo isn't even really a celebrated holiday in Mexico. Not as popular as it is in the US anyways.

[Wrathbringer]

I think the funny part is that Cinco de Mayo isn't even really a celebrated holiday in Mexico. Not as popular as it is in the US anyways.

Likely due to the fact that there's now more Mexicans here than there.

Edit: THANKS OBAMA and democraps.

[Johnny Five]

Likely due to the fact that there's now more here than there.

Also why Mexico is terrible in the olympics.

[Wrathbringer]

Also why Mexico is terrible in the olympics.

Yeah, too many Mexicans can ruin the best of teams. A lesson democraps must learn.

[Gelston]

I think the funny part is that Cinco de Mayo isn't even really a celebrated holiday in Mexico. Not as popular as it is in the US anyways.

I'm sure most US Citizens celebrating it think it is Mexican Independence Day. I just use it as an excuse to get drunk on Margaritas as opposed to my usually beers.

[Sorcasaurus]

The school's administrators, led either by Principal Nicholas L. Boden or Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez (reports vary as to which), sent home four of them for refusing to remove the T-shirts on the Pueblan holiday of Cinco de Mayo. This is from Wikipedia

Most other sources have Miguel as the primary in sending the boys home.

http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/20100505/nick-boden.jpg
Principal Nick Boden

I can't find a definite picture of Miguel.

Neither of them are still with the shcool.

[Silvean]

When I was a teacher in NC, we had a ban on wearing rosary beads because they were viewed as a Mexican gang symbol. I don't know if that was a legitimate belief but I think protesting the ban would be quite difficult. The opinion in this case shows that courts give schools the benefit of the doubt when weighing freedom of expression against safety.

I remember another day in NC when a student wearing a confederate flag t-shirt was threatened in the hall and was forced to turn it inside out. I don't know if they identified or punished the student who made the threat. When teaching in Boston I was chewed out once because a student in my class was wearing a t-shirt with a hot pink gun design and I didn't do anything about it. I hadn't even noticed since I was busy teaching. The principal made the student turn his pink gun t-shirt inside out.

It sounds like the flag shirts were worn to aggravate an already tense atmosphere. I don't have time to research this further but it's instructive that some students in American flag apparel were allowed to continue wearing it while others were not. It would be interesting to read an extended background on the case.

[Jace Solo]

This is such bull. Can the government just deport all the whites already and hand the keys over like they want to? The certain uncertainty is killing me. Just send everyone back to Europe and let the illegals and extremists stay to duke it out.

[Gelston]

I remember another day in NC when a student wearing a confederate flag t-shirt was threatened in the hall and was forced to turn it inside out. I don't know if they identified or punished the student who made the threat. When teaching in Boston I was chewed out once because a student in my class was wearing a t-shirt with a hot pink gun design and I didn't do anything about it. I hadn't even noticed since I was busy teaching. The principal made the student turn his pink gun t-shirt inside out.

.

lolz

[Latrinsorm]

So if I'm understanding this correctly...You are not, but don't panic.
Mexican students threatened kids wearing American flag apparel on Cinco de Mayo, school officials punished the students with the American Flag apparel and the courts took the school's side? So in other words they all took the side of the dangerous, law breaking and bullying Mexican students?This implies a false dichotomy and argues from ignorance:

-If my aim is everyone's safety, I am not taking "the side" of anyone.
-You have no evidence that the "Mexican" students went unpunished, or were punished to a lesser degree.

[Tgo01]

-You have no evidence that the "Mexican" students went unpunished, or were punished to a lesser degree.

I don't need evidence.

Fact: Kids wore America flag clothing and were effectively punished for it.
Fact: The reason they were punished was because of threats from Mexican students.
Fact: The courts agreed with the school that it's okay to punish kids for wearing American flag clothing.

I really don't understand why you put Mexican in quotes like that...is it racist now to call a Mexican a Mexican? Do you think the ones threatening them weren't Mexican?

This should piss off every American, except for the most leftest of lefts of course. I think you just gave yourself away, Latrin :(

[JackWhisper]

Can someone explain to me why wearing an American flag shirt is cause for threat?

Last I checked.... this was America.

[Tgo01]

Can someone explain to me why wearing an American flag shirt is cause for threat?

Last I checked.... this was America.

But it was cinco de mayo!

I wonder if the courts realize what message this ruling sends. Don't like something someone is doing? Just threaten them and the courts will make their behavior illegal.

[Androidpk]

Leave it to tgo to post stupid shit. This isn't just about people get mad over the US flag. There were safety issues at this school and the officials made a sound ruling. This is not a freedom of speech issue.

[Tgo01]

Leave it to tgo to post stupid shit. This isn't just about people get mad over the US flag. There were safety issues at this school and the officials made a sound ruling. This is not a freedom of speech issue.

Go after the kids causing the actual trouble.

[Androidpk]

Go after the kids causing the actual trouble.

They did. The students being confrontational on purpose just to be jackasses.

[Archigeek]

Go after the kids causing the actual trouble.

Note that not all kids wearing American flags were told not to wear them, only the ones wearing the American flag in order to cause trouble. Do you think it is respecting the American flag if you're wearing it in an effort to provoke confrontation? Sounds to me like disrespect. You could just as well be standing on it.

[Tgo01]

They did. The students being confrontational on purpose just to be jackasses.

It should have ended there then.

[Tgo01]

Note that not all kids wearing American flags were told not to wear them, only the ones wearing the American flag in order to cause trouble. Do you think it is respecting the American flag if you're wearing it in an effort to provoke confrontation? Sounds to me like disrespect. You could just as well be standing on it.

Not all the kids were told to take the shirts off? Well gosh, sounds like the argument of it was for their safety was a bunch of bullshit then. So the Mexican students were just targeting certain students wearing American flag shirts?

As I said, the most leftist of lefts have no problem with this.

[Androidpk]

Not all the kids were told to take the shirts off? Well gosh, sounds like the argument of it was for their safety was a bunch of bullshit then. So the Mexican students were just targeting certain students wearing American flag shirts?

As I said, the most leftist of lefts have no problem with this.

Dear god, either you are a deliberate troll or you are one stupid motherfucker. I'm going with both.

[Tgo01]

Dear god, either you are a deliberate troll or you are one stupid motherfucker. I'm going with both.

When you have no counter argument jump straight to insults.

[Androidpk]

Kerl gave the counterargument and you completely ignored it and responded with an asinine comment.

[Archigeek]

Not all the kids were told to take the shirts off? Well gosh, sounds like the argument of it was for their safety was a bunch of bullshit then. So the Mexican students were just targeting certain students wearing American flag shirts?

As I said, the most leftist of lefts have no problem with this.


Note that not all kids wearing American flags were told not to wear them, only the ones wearing the American flag in order to cause trouble. Do you think it is respecting the American flag if you're wearing it in an effort to provoke confrontation? Sounds to me like disrespect. You could just as well be standing on it. -Me

It's not complicated, even you should be able to get it.

[Wrathbringer]

Note that not all kids wearing American flags were told not to wear them, only the ones wearing the American flag in order to cause trouble. Do you think it is respecting the American flag if you're wearing it in an effort to provoke confrontation? Sounds to me like disrespect. You could just as well be standing on it.

Please, sir. I know you're familiar with current events. The American flag stands for provocation and confrontation.

[Tisket]

This is not a freedom of speech issue.

It's the very definition of a freedom of speech issue.

[Androidpk]

It's the very definition of a freedom of speech issue.

That's like saying not being able to shout fire in a movie theater is a freedom of speech issue.

[Tgo01]

Kerl gave the counterargument and you completely ignored it and responded with an asinine comment.

And I countered his counterargument. This is how conversation works.


It's not complicated, even you should be able to get it.

Your argument doesn't make a lick of sense.

If they were causing trouble then send them home for causing trouble; don't tell them to turn their shirts inside out because that suddenly makes their behavior better.

I also like how the school apparently is talking out of both sides of their ass.

"Well there was talk of threats and violence because kids were wearing American flag shirts so we told them to turn their shirts inside out."

"No no no, certain kids were causing trouble with their American flag shirts so we only told the ones causing trouble to turn their shirts inside out."

This doesn't even make sense.

Were the Mexican students targeting them for wearing American flag shirts or were they targeting them because they were causing trouble? Pick an excuse and stick to it, please.

[Tgo01]

That's like saying not being able to shout fire in a movie theater is a freedom of speech issue.

Yes, shouting fire in a movie theater is exactly like wearing an American flag shirt to school in the US.

[Tisket]

That's like saying not being able to shout fire in a movie theater is a freedom of speech issue.

And you called Tg stupid...jesus.

Speech designed to harm others is not protected speech.

[Latrinsorm]

I don't need evidence.This guy...
Fact: Kids wore America flag clothing and were effectively punished for it.Is being compelled to wear a seat belt "effectively" a punishment? No. Therefore the authorities can dictate what you wear when safety is a sufficient consideration. Done and done.

[Androidpk]

Yes, shouting fire in a movie theater is exactly like wearing an American flag shirt to school in the US.

In this particular situation, yes, it is.

[Tgo01]

Is being compelled to wear a seat belt "effectively" a punishment? No. Therefore the authorities can dictate what you wear when safety is a sufficient consideration. Done and done.

Yes, wearing a seat belt, a proven technique that has proven to save countless lives in automobile accidents is exactly the same thing as wearing an American flag shirt to school because other people are assholes and want to do harm to someone wearing this shirt.

I thought the government was here to protect us and our freedoms? Not say "HA! Someone didn't like what you did, therefore we are going to make it illegal."

What ever happened to Democrat's motto of "Legalize it!"?

[Archigeek]

Yes, shouting fire in a movie theater is exactly like wearing an American flag shirt to school in the US.

Actually wearing an American flag T-shirt in an effort to create trouble is more like going shopping at Target with your Bushmaster in hand. The Bushmaster is legal, but you're still a dumb ass.

[Androidpk]

Speech designed to harm others is not protected speech.

No shit, Sherlock. Which is why the school went after the students that were deliberately being antagonist assholes and causing safety concerns.

[Tgo01]

Actually wearing an American flag T-shirt in an effort to create trouble is more like going shopping at Target with your Bushmaster in hand. The Bushmaster is legal, but you're still a dumb ass.


No shit, Sherlock. Which is why the school went after the students that were deliberately being antagonist assholes and causing safety concerns.

I love how the students wearing the shirts were the ones being threatened and they were apparently in the wrong and being "antagonist" assholes.

I mean...I don't even know where to begin with this.

[Gelston]

Actually wearing an American flag T-shirt in an effort to create trouble is more like going shopping at Target with your Bushmaster in hand. The Bushmaster is legal, but you're still a dumb ass.

I will disagree with that. It is nothing like carrying your large, venomous pit viper in your hand to Target.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Lachesis_muta_muta.jpg/1920px-Lachesis_muta_muta.jpg

He is way too cuddly.

[Tisket]

No shit, Sherlock. Which is why the school went after the students that were deliberately being antagonist assholes and causing safety concerns.

Rather than remove the people who would attack those wearing a flag shirt? Yeah, makes perfect sense.

God you are stupid.

[Androidpk]

Rather than remove the people who would attack those wearing a flag shirt? Yeah, makes perfect sense.

God you are stupid.

That's how it usually goes. The ones instigating problems are the ones that need to be dealt with. Not the persons and groups they are instigating. It isn't rocket science.

[Tgo01]

I thought the government was here to protect us and our freedoms? Not say "HA! Someone didn't like what you did, therefore we are going to make it illegal."

I actually thought of the perfect example for this.

What if kids in one school are threatening any girls who wear pants and insist they were dresses and skirts? Would we punish the girls and say they must wear dresses and skirts from now on "for their own safety" or would we punish the ones doing the threatening?

Remember, depending on how you answer this question you may or may not be a Muslim extremist.

[Tisket]

That's how it usually goes. The ones instigating problems are the ones that need to be dealt with. Not the persons and groups they are instigating. It isn't rocket science.

So you should be punished if I run up to you and poke your eye out because you are wearing purple (and I HATE purple)?

[Gelston]

So you should be punished if I run up to you and poke your eye out because you are wearing purple (and I HATE purple)?

You hate purple? Dead to me. You are dead to me.

http://www.fbider.com/img/46201353493.jpg

[Tisket]

You hate purple? Dead to me. You are dead to me.

http://www.fbider.com/img/46201353493.jpg

haha, it was an example! Purple is okay.

[Androidpk]

A better example would be something like black history month and kids wearing KKK shirts just to be assholes.

[Tisket]

A better example would be something like black history month and kids wearing KKK shirts just to be assholes.

And I'd support that. At least then we'd know who the racist assholes are in any given group.

[Gelston]

A better example would be something like black history month and kids wearing KKK shirts just to be assholes.

I don't think I can condone comparing a shirt with Our Nation's flag to the KKK. Regardless of what point you are going for.

[Tenlaar]

According to court documents, the incident occurred amid "ongoing racial tension and gang violence within the school, and after a near-violent altercation had erupted during the prior Cinco de Mayo over the display of an American flag."

The previous year, court documents said, a group of students carrying a Mexican flag ha clashed with students who hung an American flag from a tree and chanted "USA" on Cinco de Mayo, a holiday marking a famous Mexican military battle that is often celebrated in the United States.
This isn't a group of students displaying the flag out of respect or pride, it is a group using the flag to say "this is our country, not yours." Bigotry should not be tolerated in schools.

[Androidpk]

So you should be punished if I run up to you and poke your eye out because you are wearing purple (and I HATE purple)?

If you are going to insult my intelligence then at least attempt to sound intelligent yourself. As mentioned this particular school had racial tensions going on and you had kids deliberately trying to cause problems and those kids were dealt with.

[Tisket]

This isn't a group of students displaying the flag out of respect or pride, it is a group using the flag to say "this is our country, not yours." Bigotry should not be tolerated in schools.

Luckily for those who love the first amendment, your opinion on the matter means shit all.

[Gelston]

If you are going to insult my intelligence then at least attempt to sound intelligent yourself. As mentioned this particular school had racial tensions going on and you had kids deliberately trying to cause problems and those kids were dealt with.

If it is so bad, they just switch to school uniforms. Problem solved.

[Tisket]

If you are going to insult my intelligence then at least attempt to sound intelligent yourself. As mentioned this particular school had racial tensions going on and you had kids deliberately trying to cause problems and those kids were dealt with.

So you should be punished since you knew I hate purple yet wore it anyway?

[Androidpk]

So you should be punished since you knew I hate purple yet wore it anyway?

Your example isn't even comparative.

[Tgo01]

A better example would be something like black history month and kids wearing KKK shirts just to be assholes.

Yes, wearing an American flag shirt is exactly the same as wearing a KKK shirt.

[Tisket]

Yes, wearing an American flag shirt is exactly the same as wearing a KKK shirt.

It should have the same protections though. Even as despicable as it might be to most of us.

[Tgo01]

It should have the same protections though. Even as despicable as it might be to most of us.

I agree it should have the same protections.

[Androidpk]

Yes, wearing an American flag shirt is exactly the same as wearing a KKK shirt.

Within the context of the situation I laid out, yes. Examples, how do they work?

[Androidpk]

As tenlaar said, bigotry has no place in a public school. Same goes for jingoism and xenophobia.

[Tgo01]

As tenlaar said, bigotry has no place in a public school. Same goes for jingoism and xenophobia.

Bigotry has no place in schools? Like threatening someone with violence for wearing a shirt? I agree. Strange people don't seem to agree with what they are preaching.

[Androidpk]

Bigotry has no place in schools? Like threatening someone with violence for wearing a shirt? I agree. Strange people don't seem to agree with what they are preaching.

More like harassing people of a different culture that are trying to celebrate a holiday.

[Wrathbringer]

More like harassing people of a different culture that are trying to celebrate a holiday.

The staff should have just explained that cinco de whatevero (Spanish for whatever) is a made up holiday that doesn't matter. Like arbor day, or presidents day.

[Tgo01]

More like harassing people of a different culture that are trying to celebrate a holiday.

If the school's account of what happened is true, which we all know it's not, the problem is people seem to be ignoring what the Mexican students did. You can try to backtrack now and say you aren't, but really, people are.

Again, assuming the school's account of what happened is true:

Kids celebrating Cino de Mayo peacefully. -- This is okay.
Kids wearing American flag shirts are being provocative and trying to cause trouble. -- This is not okay.
Kids threatening those wearing American flag shirts. -- This is REALLY not okay. THIS should be the focus of the story. Why is the focus of the story on how the kids wearing the shirts were a bunch of hooligans for wearing the American flag shirt?

No really, why is that the focus of the story. I want an answer. The focus of the story should be on the assholes threatening others with violence. What am I missing here, because I'm apparently missing something.

All throughout this thread with people saying the school and courts did good keep saying "But they were starting it!" How? By wearing a shirt? Did they say something mean to hurt their poor little feelings? So that absolves of them of the wrong doing of actually threatening people with physical violence?

As I said earlier I am at a loss for words here.

Then we have seen this being compared to wearing a car seat belt, shouting fire in a theater and comparing wearing the American flag to wearing a KKK flag.

[Wrathbringer]

Yes, wearing an American flag shirt is exactly the same as wearing a KKK shirt.

Agreed. It's worse.

[Androidpk]

You keep saying the mexican students were making threats. Care to tell us what they were saying that was so threatening?

[Tgo01]

You keep saying the mexican students were making threats. Care to tell us what they were saying that was so threatening?

You tell me. In case you think I'm making this up or something here is a quote from the original article:


According to court documents, the incident occurred amid "ongoing racial tension and gang violence within the school, and after a near-violent altercation had erupted during the prior Cinco de Mayo over the display of an American flag."

The previous year, court documents said, a group of students carrying a Mexican flag had clashed with students who hung an American flag from a tree and chanted "USA" on Cinco de Mayo, a holiday marking a famous Mexican military battle that is often celebrated in the United States.

A "near-violent altercation" had erupted over the display of an American flag? Are we assuming the white students were the ones who started it over the American flag?

Besides, if they were told to remove the shirts over "safety concerns" then obviously they were being threatened, yes?

Gang violence in the school, and it's very obviously talking about Mexican student gang violence. Why isn't this the focus of the story?

You either chose to ignore this part of the story or you somehow think the gang violence and threats were coming from the white kids wearing an American flag shirt.

[Wrathbringer]

I'm sure most US Citizens celebrating it think it is Mexican Independence Day. I just use it as an excuse to get drunk on Margaritas as opposed to my usually beers.


You tell me. In case you think I'm making this up or something here is a quote from the original article:



A "near-violent altercation" had erupted over the display of an American flag? Are we assuming the white students were the ones who started it over the American flag?

Besides, if they were told to remove the shirts over "safety concerns" then obviously they were being threatened, yes?

Gang violence in the school, and it's very obviously talking about Mexican student gang violence. Why isn't this the focus of the story?

You either chose to ignore this part of the story or you somehow think the gang violence and threats were coming from the white kids wearing an American flag shirt.

Ms 13 probably runs that joint.

[Androidpk]

You tell me. In case you think I'm making this up or something here is a quote from the original article:



A "near-violent altercation" had erupted over the display of an American flag? Are we assuming the white students were the ones who started it over the American flag?

Besides, if they were told to remove the shirts over "safety concerns" then obviously they were being threatened, yes?

Gang violence in the school, and it's very obviously talking about Mexican student gang violence. Why isn't this the focus of the story?

You either chose to ignore this part of the story or you somehow think the gang violence and threats were coming from the white kids wearing an American flag shirt.


Ahh, so you don't have any factual information on who was at fault in these altercations and you're just assuming it was mexicans that were making threats, even though you haven't the faintest idea of what said threats entailed. Carry on being a dumbass, dumbass.

[Wrathbringer]

Ahh, so you don't have any factual information on who was at fault in these altercations and you're just assuming it was mexicans that were making threats, even though you haven't the faintest idea of what said threats entailed. Carry on being a dumbass, dumbass.

Seems reasonable to me.

[Tgo01]

Ahh, so you don't have any factual information on who was at fault in these altercations and you're just assuming it was mexicans that were making threats, even though you haven't the faintest idea of what said threats entailed. Carry on being a dumbass, dumbass.

Who were they being protected from?

I thought their safety was the issue?

[Johnny Five]

It's okay, they are a minority. It's the devil white man that's destroying their holidays.

[Candor]

Just to put my two cents in on the subject:

Students should be able to wear American flag shirts to school whenever they want, provided the depiction of the flag is not disrespectful to the flag itself. If the students behavior is in some way unacceptable, then punish the kids for their behavior, not for wearing a shirt with the American flag on it.

Any public school employee who has a problem with this viewpoint should not be a public school employee - period. As an aside, this also goes for any public school employee who has a problem with uniformed US military personnel entering a public school.

Students who react violently to another student wearing an American flag shirt should be expelled.

And never mind what I think of a judge who doesn't agree with these viewpoints. This is America, not Mexico.

[Tisket]

Just to put my two cents in on the subject:

Students should be able to wear gay pride shirts to school whenever they want, provided the depiction of the rainbow is not disrespectful to the rainbow itself. If the students behavior is in some way unacceptable, then punish the kids for their behavior, not for wearing a shirt with a gay pride slogan on it.

Students who react violently to another student wearing a gay pride shirt should be expelled.

And never mind what I think of a judge who doesn't agree with these viewpoints.

It's not about the flag. It's about protecting the free speech symbolized on the shirt.

I made some changes to your quote to drive that home.

[Androidpk]

It's not about the flag. It's about protecting the free speech symbolized on the shirt.

I made some changes to your quote to drive that home.

'MURICA AINT GOT TIME FOR WETBACKS AND HOMOSEXUALS

[Tisket]

'MURICA AINT GOT TIME FOR WETBACKS AND HOMOSEXUALS

And yet you think suppressing the message on a t-shirt is okay?

What if it'd been the Mexican flag on a t-shirt during a fourth of July celebration?

[Androidpk]

And yet you think suppressing the message on a t-shirt is okay?

What if it'd been the Mexican flag on a t-shirt during a fourth of July celebration?

If it fell under the same circumstances with a group of kids wearing Mexican shirts and being jerks I would be perfectly okay with the administration handling it appropriately, like they did.

[JackWhisper]

Nothing about this situation was handled appropriately. It's not even handed at all.

[Androidpk]

I would think given my open fondness and support of civil rights that my stance on this particular situation would make people give some critical thought to the issue. This isn't about suppression of the flag or freedom of speech. It's about stopping some disrespectful kids from stirring up even more racial tensions in an area where it was/is a sensitive topic.

[Latrinsorm]

Bigotry has no place in schools? Like threatening someone with violence for wearing a shirt? I agree. Strange people don't seem to agree with what they are preaching.You continue to frame this as a false dichotomy: that people for restricting one group cannot also be for restricting the other.

[Wrathbringer]

You continue to frame this as a false dichotomy: that people for restricting one group cannot also be for restricting the other.

Because apparently they aren't?

[Tgo01]

I would think given my open fondness and support of civil rights that my stance on this particular situation would make people give some critical thought to the issue.

What, and my posts around here have indicated I hate blacks and think gays should be put into a cannon and shot into the sun or something?


You continue to frame this as a false dichotomy: that people for restricting one group cannot also be for restricting the other.

Actions speak louder than words dear Latrin. When all I see are people saying the kids wearing the shirts were assholes and were causing trouble and no mention of the threat of violence towards them one has to wonder if they have given the ones threatening violence any sort of the blame in this situation.

Any person who isn't a leftie who pretends to be a rightie that is ;)

[Androidpk]

>What, and my posts around here have indicated I hate blacks and think gays should be put into a cannon and shot into the sun or something?

Your posts generally paint you as a nut job on the far right. The kind that gives republicans a bad image.

[Thondalar]

I would think given my open fondness and support of civil rights that my stance on this particular situation would make people give some critical thought to the issue. This isn't about suppression of the flag or freedom of speech. It's about stopping some disrespectful kids from stirring up even more racial tensions in an area where it was/is a sensitive topic.

This would make sense...unfortunately, from what I can tell, the issue before the appeals court was that the school was allowed to tell kids they can't wear an American Flag shirt, not that they can't remove disruptive students.

I've read both sides of this argument, and to me, the point that requires the most recognition is that the "disruptive" students in American Flag shirts were not removed from the school, they were only asked to (effectively) remove their shirts. Since apparently nobody here has the data Latrin supposedly requires to form a conclusion, we must revert to logic.

Logic tells me that if a student is being disruptive, for any reason, you remove the student. My logical conclusion based on "racial tensions, students asked to (remove, cover up) American Flag shirts" indicates that another group found these shirts to be offensive, and were causing problems because of it. In this case, my assumption would be that the latter group be removed. This, apparently, was not the case.

Again, the case before the courts was not whether or not school officials have the right to remove disruptive students, but whether or not they can tell students they can't wear American Flag t-shirts.

[Candor]

It's not about the flag. It's about protecting the free speech symbolized on the shirt.

I made some changes to your quote to drive that home.

While I personally have issues with homosexuality, your point is valid. I absolutely agree that free speech needs to be protected.

[Wrathbringer]

While I personally have issues with homosexuality, your point is valid. I absolutely agree that free speech needs to be protected.

It gets better, candor. Stay strong.

[Jace Solo]

I don't need evidence.

Fact: Kids wore America flag clothing and were effectively punished for it.
Fact: The reason they were punished was because of threats from Mexican students.
Fact: The courts agreed with the school that it's okay to punish kids for wearing American flag clothing.

I really don't understand why you put Mexican in quotes like that...is it racist now to call a Mexican a Mexican? Do you think the ones threatening them weren't Mexican?

This should piss off every American, except for the most leftest of lefts of course. I think you just gave yourself away, Latrin :(

That's why I nearly choked up my coffee and stopped responding to him in the other thread when he claimed he was a Republican. It's like spewing ISIS rhetoric then claiming to be a Mormon. Usually, your actions speak louder than words... but on a forum your words and where you decide to place them are your actions.

He definitely didn't "just" give himself away. I had no idea he "identified" as a Republican until he said it in the NFL thread... to which I was absolutely astonished that someone with his views and how he vehemently professes them could claim or identify as such a think. The first thought that came to my mind was that he was doing it to try and quiet the actual Republicans akin to "I'm not racist, I have black friends!". The second thought that came through my mind was "Latrin is Willem Dafoe in Boondocks Saints".

Please neg rep me, again, my reputation is beyond repute. :foshizzle:

[Latrinsorm]

What, and my posts around here have indicated I hate blacks and think gays should be put into a cannon and shot into the sun or something?Being shot into a mountain is fine.
Actions speak louder than words dear Latrin. When all I see are people saying the kids wearing the shirts were assholes and were causing trouble and no mention of the threat of violence towards them one has to wonder if they have given the ones threatening violence any sort of the blame in this situation.Or it could go without saying that people who threaten violence should be punished... even though they're only exercising their FREEDOM OF SPEECH USA USA USA

Boom, roasted.

[Thondalar]

Or it could go without saying that people who threaten violence should be punished... even though they're only exercising their FREEDOM OF SPEECH USA USA USA

Boom, roasted.

This is called assault, and is not protected by free speech, since it's like, a misdemeanor and stuff.

[Latrinsorm]

That's why I nearly choked up my coffee and stopped responding to him in the other thread when he claimed he was a Republican. It's like spewing ISIS rhetoric then claiming to be a Mormon. Usually, your actions speak louder than words... but on a forum your words and where you decide to place them are your actions.

He definitely didn't "just" give himself away. I had no idea he "identified" as a Republican until he said it in the NFL thread... to which I was absolutely astonished that someone with his views and how he vehemently professes them could claim or identify as such a think. The first thought that came to my mind was that he was doing it to try and quiet the actual Republicans akin to "I'm not racist, I have black friends!". The second thought that came through my mind was "Latrin is Willem Dafoe in Boondocks Saints".

Please neg rep me, my reputation is beyond repute. :foshizzle:You've lost me on the Willem Dafoe part, but it is a fact that I am a Republican - I signed the paper and the deed was done. I only brought it up because you called me a Democrat.

Would it interest you to learn that I was a staunch defender of President George W. Bush on these forums? Although it's hard to say quantitatively, I would say I was far more "vehement" in those days, having not yet received the scientific training that leads (e.g) Thondalar to hold me in such high esteem, not to mention having not yet been blessed by knowing Kina.

[Tgo01]

Your posts generally paint you as a nut job on the far right. The kind that gives republicans a bad image.[/COLOR]

I have said on multiple occasions that I am for equal rights for gays, I firmly believe women should have the choice on whether or not they want an abortion, I believe it's the government's responsibility to provide healthcare/medical care to its citizens, I am all in favor of granting citizenship to some illegal aliens; namely those who have stayed out of legal trouble and have been here since they were a child and have either joined the military or are good students and are wanting to go to college to better themselves. I think we should be doing more to help minorities stuck in ghettos who only know violence in life.

The idea that I'm just some racist nut job and you're the poster boy for civil rights therefore people should automatically stop and think about this situation based on your stance on the issue is quite laughable to be honest.

Your confirmation bias is quite staggering.

[Latrinsorm]

This is called assault, and is not protected by free speech, since it's like, a misdemeanor and stuff.Inciting violence is also not protected by free speech. Did you ever walk into that one, sheesh. California state law 404.6:

"Every person who with the intent to cause a riot ... urges others to commit acts of force or violence ... at a time and place and under circumstances that
produce a clear and present and immediate danger of acts of force or violence ... is guilty of incitement to riot."

It's even also a misdemeanor! America! What a country!

[Androidpk]

I have said on multiple occasions that I am for equal rights for gays, I firmly believe women should have the choice on whether or not they want an abortion, I believe it's the government's responsibility to provide healthcare/medical care to its citizens, I am all in favor of granting citizenship to some illegal aliens; namely those who have stayed out of legal trouble and have been here since they were a child and have either joined the military or are good students and are wanting to go to college to better themselves. I think we should be doing more to help minorities stuck in ghettos who only know violence in life.

The idea that I'm just some racist nut job and you're the poster boy for civil rights therefore people should automatically stop and think about this situation based on your stance on the issue is quite laughable to be honest.

Your confirmation bias is quite staggering.


For someone that is so outspoken about politics you sure have a funny way of showing it by not voting or participating in politics, other than your role as an arm chair General.

[Wrathbringer]

Inciting violence is also not protected by free speech. Did you ever walk into that one, sheesh. California state law 404.6:

"Every person who with the intent to cause a riot ... urges others to commit acts of force or violence ... at a time and place and under circumstances that
produce a clear and present and immediate danger of acts of force or violence ... is guilty of incitement to riot."

It's even also a misdemeanor! America! What a country!

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XaHarYdJ2O8

[Tgo01]

For someone that is so outspoken about politics you sure have a funny way of showing it by not voting or participating in politics, other than your role as an arm chair General.

I also know a lot about beer and have some opinions on it but I don't drink it.

[JackWhisper]

Microbreweries are stupid.

[JackWhisper]

They're so god damned tiny. The breweries need to be at least...

...
....


THREE TIMES BIGGER.

[Androidpk]

I also know a lot about beer and have some opinions on it but I don't drink it.

But do you bitch about beer the same way you bitch about politics and politicians?

[Tgo01]

But do you bitch about beer the same way you bitch about politics and politicians?

I'm sure if there was some controversial issue in regards to beer making the rounds I would.

[Candor]

It gets better, candor. Stay strong.

WB's humor needs...humor. We could probably do an entire thread on the subject.

[Androidpk]

I'm sure if there was some controversial issue in regards to beer making the rounds I would.

So basically you are just a troll that likes to bitch.

[Tgo01]

So basically you are just a troll that likes to bitch.

I'm not sure how you arrived to that conclusion based on my response. Someone having an opinion is a troll?

[Tenlaar]

Luckily for those who love the first amendment, your opinion on the matter means shit all.

According to the California court of appeals it is actually your opinion that means shit all. So sorry for ya.

[Androidpk]

I'm not sure how you arrived to that conclusion based on my response. Someone having an opinion is a troll?

Someone having an opinion.. no.

Someone that rants and raves about something without bothering to actually do something.. yes. A troll. Or dead weight if you prefer that.

[Tgo01]

Someone having an opinion.. no.

Someone that rants and raves about something without bothering to actually do something.. yes. A troll. Or dead weight if you prefer that.

Well that's interesting. I also think it's a shame there are starving children all over the world and that girls are being kidnapped and tortured by Muslim extremists; does this mean I shouldn't say anything about this unless I airdrop some food down near starving kids or get my combat boots on and rescue some girls from terrorists?

[Androidpk]

Well that's interesting. I also think it's a shame there are starving children all over the world and that girls are being kidnapped and tortured by Muslim extremists; does this mean I shouldn't say anything about this unless I airdrop some food down near starving kids or get my combat boots on and rescue some girls from terrorists?

Not everyone is in a protein for hands on help for something like that but everyone has the ability to participate in politics in a conducive manner, either by voting or contacting your politicians with concerns and suggestions.

[Thondalar]

Inciting violence is also not protected by free speech. Did you ever walk into that one, sheesh. California state law 404.6:

"Every person who with the intent to cause a riot ... urges others to commit acts of force or violence ... at a time and place and under circumstances that
produce a clear and present and immediate danger of acts of force or violence ... is guilty of incitement to riot."

It's even also a misdemeanor! America! What a country!

So then we need to figure out who was inciting the violence, in this case...the kids wearing the American flags, or the kids threatening them because of it? If it's the kids wearing the American flags, we need to seriously reconsider what our standard is for "inciting violence"....if the presence of our Nation's flag incites violence in people living in our country, those people need to seriously consider relocating to a country they don't find so offensive.

What I find interesting in all of this is that nobody has bothered to bring up the fact that every school is within their rights to have a dress code, and that children under 18 are generally not considered to have the same rights as adults.

[Tisket]

According to the California court of appeals it is actually your opinion that means shit all. So sorry for ya.

Courts have made shitty decisions for as long as courts have been in session. Stop being a simpleton and start thinking for yourself.

[Candor]

Courts have made shitty decisions for as long as courts have been in session. Stop being a simpleton and start thinking for yourself.

But Tisket...we want other people to do our thinking for us! Thinking is hard.

And standing up for our beliefs when other people disagree with us...that's way too hard!

And standing up for our beliefs, armed with actual facts...that's way way way too hard.

So quit bugging us. Let us just whine about how the way things are.

[Back]

Imagine living in England with a few other expats and you all get together on July 4th to have a party and a few brits show up waving the Union Jack in your face? How would you perceive their intent?

[Tgo01]

Imagine living in England with a few other expats and you all get together on July 4th to have a party and a few brits show up waving the Union Jack in your face? How would you perceive their intent?

Obviously I would threaten them with physical violence then demand that they not be allowed to have their country's flag within a 1 mile radius of me.

[JackWhisper]

Where the hell did Mexican-British people come into this?

[Thondalar]

Imagine living in England with a few other expats and you all get together on July 4th to have a party and a few brits show up waving the Union Jack in your face? How would you perceive their intent?

I'd buy them a beer and ask if they wanted us to kick their ass AGAIN.

[leifastagsweed]

I'd buy them a beer and ask if they wanted us to kick their ass AGAIN.

LOL you would, too! :)

[Back]

That would be funny but what I was asking was how would you perceive their intent? Wouldn't you think they were trying to be rude? That their intent was not meant as one of respect but of disrespect?

[Wrathbringer]

Obviously I would threaten them with physical violence then demand that they not be allowed to have their country's flag within a 1 mile radius of me.

lol

[Tenlaar]

Courts have made shitty decisions for as long as courts have been in session. Stop being a simpleton and start thinking for yourself.

This isn't one of them, in my opinion. Keeping a group of students from potentially initiating race riots because they don't want people celebrating foreign customs in "their" country is not something that I have a problem with.

You are not always right and disagreeing with you does not mean that somebody didn't think for themselves. Get over yourself.

[Candor]

Imagine living in England with a few other expats and you all get together on July 4th to have a party and a few brits show up waving the Union Jack in your face? How would you perceive their intent?

They would want to join the party and have a beer.

[Thondalar]

That would be funny but what I was asking was how would you perceive their intent? Wouldn't you think they were trying to be rude? That their intent was not meant as one of respect but of disrespect?

I wouldn't presume to know their intent. I would think they were showing national pride, and if met with a respectful amount of bravado, nothing that we wouldn't later be laughing about over a pint.

[Thondalar]

This isn't one of them, in my opinion. Keeping a group of students from potentially initiating race riots because they don't want people celebrating foreign customs in "their" country is not something that I have a problem with.

You are not always right and disagreeing with you does not mean that somebody didn't think for themselves. Get over yourself.

We don't have the facts, here. What if the Mexican students were the ones potentially initiating a race riot? Not to mention the fact that Cinco de Mayo isn't even a "foreign custom". Most Mexicans in Mexico don't give a flying fuck about it.

Look, I have no problem with people showing pride in their customs/nationality/way of life/whatever. What bothers me is that everyone has thrown principle out the window for some twisted sense of PC. Gay pride is great, but hetero pride is hate. Black power is great, but White power is hate. Assumed intent from speech supersedes action. If I say a chick that dresses and acts like a hooker is a hooker, it's hate speech against all women...but there's no problem assuming a white guy that says "white power" is a nazi-loving racist. Either speech is protected, or it isn't. Oh, sure, it's protected in Federal court, but not the court of public opinion...as many have said on these very boards, you're free to say whatever you want, just don't be surprised when you get shit on by everyone because of what you've said. That's cool, and totally understandable...but how about some equality with that? Why are the VERY SAME WORDS different depending on whose mouth they come out of? It's pure bullshit. This is your "grey areas" at work.

[Warriorbird]

We don't have the facts, here. What if the Mexican students were the ones potentially initiating a race riot? Not to mention the fact that Cinco de Mayo isn't even a "foreign custom". Most Mexicans in Mexico don't give a flying fuck about it.

Look, I have no problem with people showing pride in their customs/nationality/way of life/whatever. What bothers me is that everyone has thrown principle out the window for some twisted sense of PC. Gay pride is great, but hetero pride is hate. Black power is great, but White power is hate. Assumed intent from speech supersedes action. If I say a chick that dresses and acts like a hooker is a hooker, it's hate speech against all women...but there's no problem assuming a white guy that says "white power" is a nazi-loving racist. Either speech is protected, or it isn't. Oh, sure, it's protected in Federal court, but not the court of public opinion...as many have said on these very boards, you're free to say whatever you want, just don't be surprised when you get shit on by everyone because of what you've said. That's cool, and totally understandable...but how about some equality with that? Why are the VERY SAME WORDS different depending on whose mouth they come out of? It's pure bullshit. This is your "grey areas" at work.

Racial provocation is something that you really can't let fly in a school setting. I've written up children of a variety of ethnicities and nationalities for racism. The most recent was a black American kid being racist to an African immigrant kid.

I don't know the situation but I probably would've sent everybody who was attempting to start stuff out. We don't know many details.

[Thondalar]

Racial provocation is something that you really can't let fly in a school setting. I've written up children of a variety of ethnicities and nationalities for racism. The most recent was a black American kid being racist to an African immigrant kid.

I don't know the situation but I probably would've sent everybody who was attempting to start stuff out. We don't know many details.

Well, that's precisely my point. From the information we have, no students were sent home...only students wearing American flag shirts were told to (effectively) remove them. That's the part that I have a problem with, simply because without further facts of the situation, it seems like people considered the American flag to be offensive.

[Allereli]

We don't have the facts, here. What if the Mexican students were the ones potentially initiating a race riot? Not to mention the fact that Cinco de Mayo isn't even a "foreign custom". Most Mexicans in Mexico don't give a flying fuck about it.

Look, I have no problem with people showing pride in their customs/nationality/way of life/whatever. What bothers me is that everyone has thrown principle out the window for some twisted sense of PC. Gay pride is great, but hetero pride is hate. Black power is great, but White power is hate. Assumed intent from speech supersedes action. If I say a chick that dresses and acts like a hooker is a hooker, it's hate speech against all women...but there's no problem assuming a white guy that says "white power" is a nazi-loving racist. Either speech is protected, or it isn't. Oh, sure, it's protected in Federal court, but not the court of public opinion...as many have said on these very boards, you're free to say whatever you want, just don't be surprised when you get shit on by everyone because of what you've said. That's cool, and totally understandable...but how about some equality with that? Why are the VERY SAME WORDS different depending on whose mouth they come out of? It's pure bullshit. This is your "grey areas" at work.

that's some fucked up shit right there. who says "white power" but racists?

[Thondalar]

that's some fucked up shit right there. who says "white power" but racists?

Lol...a shining, glorious example of my point. Who says "black power" but racists?

[Allereli]

Lol...a shining, glorious example of my point. Who says "black power" but racists?

do you completely ignore history? do you know what the KKK did? have you seen the Black Panther party active in any recent decade? people chanted for black power because they had none.

[Androidpk]

do you completely ignore history? do you know what the KKK did? have you seen the Black Panther party active in any recent decade? people chanted for black power because they had none.

There were cases of voter intimidation by black panthers as recent as 2008 and 2012.

[Thondalar]

do you completely ignore history? do you know what the KKK did? have you seen the Black Panther party active in any recent decade? people chanted for black power because they had none.

So...nobody says black power anymore? Lol. What Pk said.

[Allereli]

There were cases of voter intimidation by black panthers as recent as 2008 and 2012.

the original or "new"?

[Thondalar]

I would also note here that we're talking about speech.

Actions are actions...if you go old-skool lynching and string up a couple negros, that's pretty much a clear sign you have some serious issues. The rub is, at what point does speech get too far to that side of the equation.

"White power" and "black power" were simplistic, abbreviated examples for a theme...how many times have you heard the phrase "proud black man/woman"? I have quite often, recently in fact. Now let's flip that...say a white guy walked up to you and said "I'm a proud white man!" I already know what your assumption would be.

I was hoping to show your own prejudices by pointing them out, but apparently I have failed. I'll try one last time...

You don't like it when people make assumptions about women based on their appearance and/or speech, so what gives you the right to make assumptions about anyone else's appearance and/or speech? Why is that right exclusively reserved to you? What makes you so special that you're allowed to assume intent when nobody else can?

[Allereli]

going back to the other thread, words have meaning. You seem to think that everything that happened to black people, gays, or women was thousands of years ago and none of that struggle is still happening or there hasn't been, for example, this whole series of events in Ferguson, or laws passed by men regulating women's ownership over their bodies, or constant "damnation" of gays by the religious right.

In the other thread she was judged based on the tone of her voice (bubbly-ish), and her former profession, not by anything she actually said.

[Androidpk]

the original or "new"?

I didn't know there was a new one.

[Thondalar]

going back to the other thread, words have meaning. You seem to think that everything that happened to black people, gays, or women was thousands of years ago and none of that struggle is still happening or there hasn't been

:banghead: No, I don't think this at all. I do think that situations are improving, and hopefully we can get it where it needs to be, with actual equality for all. This doesn't mean some hate is ok because it's retaliatory.


, for example, this whole series of events in Ferguson

Oh, you mean when a black guy got shot for attacking a cop? Pretty sure that doesn't count here. Just because a bunch of people flipped the fuck out before they had all the information doesn't automatically make it an issue. Things like this are why we still can't have honest dialogue about race issues.


or laws passed by men regulating women's ownership over their bodies,

Hey, I'm a Libertarian, I think you should be able to whatever the hell you want with your body. However, I don't think you should be allowed to murder someone just because they haven't left your body yet. I'm all for reasonable legislation that determines exactly when a life becomes a life, though.


or constant "damnation" of gays by the religious right.

Again, I'm all for equal rights for gays. I think they should be allowed to be just as miserable as the rest of us. The vast majority of the "religious right" is getting on the bandwagon with this, finally...you still have your Westboros and such, but I'm quite positive you're not trying to say the fringe minority speaks for the majority, right?


In the other thread she was judged based on the tone of her voice (bubbly-ish), and her former profession, not by anything she actually said.

Notice I included appearance, although I probably should have also included job history.

[Allereli]

Notice I included appearance, although I probably should have also included job history.

I'm done going in circles. you go around saying white power and I'll just ignore you. there was nothing wrong with her job history.

[Thondalar]

What I think is so weird about this is that Allereli is so consumed by vitriol she doesn't even realize that I'm on her side.

I get that a lot, and it's probably the most frustrating thing about my political/sociological existence.

[Thondalar]

I'm done going in circles. you go around saying white power and I'll just ignore you. there was nothing wrong with her job history.

We're not going in circles. I made several points and you said "but racism 100 years ago!".

Also, I'm not "going around saying white power". Never have. Most likely never will, that I can foresee.

[Allereli]

yeah, you're right, words have no meaning........................................... ............

also, my body is mine.

[Methais]

So if I wear a Red Sox shirt to Yankee Stadium and almost get mugged by some greasy Yankees fans, the appropriate response is to ban Red Sox shirts from being worn at Yankee Stadium. Right?

And Mexican flag shirts are still ok at that school though, right?

EDIT: I'd like to revise my Red Sox analogy to more accurately reflect this situation. It would actually be Red Sox fans wearing Red Sox shirts at Fenway Park during a game against the Yankees on National NY Yankees Day, which originated in Boston and is largely ignored in the Bronx, and then they almost get mugged by greasy Yankees fans for wearing their Red Sox shirts, with the end result being to ban Red Sox shirts from being worn at Fenway because of safety concerns.

[Thondalar]

yeah, you're right, words have no meaning........................................... ............

Quite the contrary. Words carry whatever meaning you give them.


also, my body is mine.

I totally agree.

[Androidpk]

So if I wear a Red Sox shirt to Yankee Stadium and almost get mugged by some greasy Yankees fans, the appropriate response is to ban Red Sox shirts from being worn at Yankee Stadium. Right?

And Mexican flag shirts are still ok at that school though, right?

EDIT: I'd like to revise my Red Sox analogy. It would actually be a Red Sox fan wearing a Red Sox shirt at Fenway Park on National NY Yankees Day, and then they almost get mugged by greasy Yankees fans.

Try harder at being racist.

[Methais]

Try harder at being racist.

Please point out where the racism in my post is.

[Silvean]

Quite the contrary. Words carry whatever meaning you give them.

“Human speech is like a cracked kettle on which we tap crude rhythms for bears to dance to, while we long to make music that will melt the stars.” - Madame Bovary

[Androidpk]

Please point out where the racism in my post is.

Don't play daft, son.

[Silvean]

Students have less protection under the first and fourth amendments during school than they would otherwise. I think this has become obscured in the mess above.

[Tenlaar]

We don't have the facts, here. What if the Mexican students were the ones potentially initiating a race riot?

We have the fact that the year before a group of students hung up a flag and started chanting USA. I'm sure you will say something stupid about "nothing wrong with national pride," which would be a valid point if it was a regular occurrence and didn't happen to be an unusual event that happened to coincided with what happened to be a Mexican celebration in a state that happens to have a high immigrant population.

People are free to be bigots when they get home. They can hold all the anti-Cinco de Mayo demonstrations they want. It has no place in a school.

[Methais]

Don't play daft, son.

No, I'm genuinely curious how you got racism out of my post.

[Tgo01]

Students have less protection under the first and fourth amendments during school than they would otherwise. I think this has become obscured in the mess above.

True, but less protection does not mean no protection.


We have the fact that the year before a group of students hung up a flag and started chanting USA.

Yes, and wasn't it the Mexican students who were the ones starting the conflict in that scenario as well?

Seems to me if you have Mexican students who are causing trouble year after year then you expel those students; you don't limit the rights of other students because of these bad seeds. But that might be considered racist so we can't do that.

[Silvean]

True, but less protection does not mean no protection.

Less protection than you would think. You can look up Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier and find another startling example of court support for school censorship.

I am not surprised at all by the court's decision in this American flag case. I suspect it is legally sound even though I can imagine a wide variety of more ideal scenarios if we take the issue beyond that sphere. The law seems to favor the discretion of educators when it comes to ensuring student safety.

[Gelston]

If people are using the Flag of the United States of America, the flag the people have died under, to incite violence... They can go eat a dick. If people are against the Flag of the United States of America, the flag people have died under, from being shown... They can go eat a dick. Basically everyone on both sides of this are retards and they should all go eat multiple dicks.

However, freedom of speech is freedom of fucking speech isn't it? No matter what reason. It is legal to walk around with a billboard at a Service members funeral with signs saying God Hates Fags and Thank God for IEDS. You know what? I fucking hate those people but they have that right. As does any person wearing anything they want.

If a school wants to stop it, school uniforms.

[Androidpk]

>However, freedom of speech is freedom of fucking speech isn't it? No matter what reason.

It all depends on where you are. If you're a student in a public school then tough shit. Uniforms are the way to go though, IMO.

[Methais]

>However, freedom of speech is freedom of fucking speech isn't it? No matter what reason.

It all depends on where you are. If you're a student in a public school then tough shit. Uniforms are the way to go though, IMO.

Back on topic, sir, for I am eagerly awaiting your enlightenment to my previous question!

[Gelston]

>However, freedom of speech is freedom of fucking speech isn't it? No matter what reason.

It all depends on where you are. If you're a student in a public school then tough shit. Uniforms are the way to go though, IMO.

How many high school aged fought and died in the revolutionary war? Quite a few. I turned 18 at Parris Island. Look up Audie Murphy's age. These little fucks have just as much right as you and me. Now, they may be misguided, but when has that stopped anyone?

[Androidpk]

How many high school aged fought and died in the revolutionary war? Quite a few. I turned 18 at Parris Island. Look up Audie Murphy's age. These little fucks have just as much right as you and me. Now, they may be misguided, but when has that stopped anyone?

Again.. if you are a student you have to follow the school rules and if they want to tell you to not wear something or say something then you listen to them and do what they tell you to.

[Gelston]

Again.. if you are a student you have to follow the school rules and if they want to tell you to not wear something or say something then you listen to them and do what they tell you to.

The Constitution of the United States of America trumps school rules.

[Tgo01]

Again.. if you are a student you have to follow the school rules and if they want to tell you to not wear something or say something then you listen to them and do what they tell you to.

Except no. Students do have rights.

[Androidpk]

Except no. Students do have rights.

Can you swear in school? No. Is that a violation of their first amendment? No.

[Gelston]

Can you swear in school? No. Is that a violation of their first amendment? No.

I did.

When it is against "the rules" to show the Flag of the United States inside the United States... That is how I know we are fucked up.

I remember reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every morning.

[Androidpk]

The Constitution of the United States of America trumps school rules.

It really doesn't and courts have ruled on this before.

[Androidpk]

When it is against "the rules" to show the Flag of the United States inside the United States... That is how I know we are fucked up.



I don't, simply because this is not as simple as some school banning flags just for the fuck of it. Hell, they didn't even ban that. They asked 4 students, who were wearing flag shirts and bandanas, to remove them or go home. This was based off off the event the previous year when Mexican students were holding their event and a bunch of shitheads started trouble with them, hanging a US flag up and chanting America.

[Gelston]

It really doesn't and courts have ruled on this before.

There is another court above that, btw.

[Androidpk]

There is another court above that, btw.

Night Court?

[JackWhisper]

Judge Judy's Court?!

[Tgo01]

Can you swear in school? No. Is that a violation of their first amendment? No.

Students having rights does not mean they can do whatever they want.

Can students be pulled out at random and strip searched?

Why not? I thought they had to do whatever the school told them?

[Gelston]

I don't, simply because this is not as simple as some school banning flags just for the fuck of it. Hell, they didn't even ban that. They asked 4 students, who were wearing flag shirts and bandanas, to remove them or go home. This was based off off the event the previous year when Mexican students were holding their event and a bunch of shitheads started trouble with them, hanging a US flag up and chanting America.

And what is wrong with them doing that? They allowed the KKK to protest against blacks going to a public school. Wait, who tried to compare the US flag to the KKK in this thread? Oh. You. Guess what.... It happened.

[Back]

I'd buy them a beer and ask if they wanted us to kick their ass AGAIN.


That would be funny but what I was asking was how would you perceive their intent? Wouldn't you think they were trying to be rude? That their intent was not meant as one of respect but of disrespect?


They would want to join the party and have a beer.


I wouldn't presume to know their intent. I would think they were showing national pride, and if met with a respectful amount of bravado, nothing that we wouldn't later be laughing about over a pint.


Ok, I know you are trying to make your point. What I am asking is for you to step into the shoes of someone else.

Lets say you are Croatian. You want to celebrate some Croatian holiday and some Russians show up wearing Russian flags. How would you perceive their intent?

Lets say you are a nationality living in another country than your own, want to celebrate your own holiday, and people in the country that you are living in show up wearing their own colors when it is not a holiday they normally celebrate? What is their intent? What is the difference between your intent and their intent?

[Gelston]

Ok, I know you are trying to make your point. What I am asking is for you to step into the shoes of someone else.

Lets say you are Croatian. You want to celebrate some Croatian holiday and some Russians show up wearing Russian flags. How would you perceive their intent?

Lets say you are a nationality living in another country than your own, want to celebrate your own holiday, and people in the country that you are living in show up wearing their own colors when it is not a holiday they normally celebrate? What is their intent? What is the difference between your intent and their intent?

We don't live in Croatia. We live in the United States of America.

[Tgo01]

Ok, I know you are trying to make your point. What I am asking is for you to step into the shoes of someone else.

Lets say you are Croatian. You want to celebrate some Croatian holiday and some Russians show up wearing Russian flags. How would you perceive their intent?

Lets say you are a nationality living in another country than your own, want to celebrate your own holiday, and people in the country that you are living in show up wearing their own colors when it is not a holiday they normally celebrate? What is their intent? What is the difference between your intent and their intent?

It's simple to me really; it should never be illegal to wave an American flag or wear an American flag shirt. Ever.

If the kids were actually causing problems...OTHER than wearing the shirt...then fine, send them home for being little shits. But as I said earlier in the thread if the kids were really causing problems, and the shirt itself wasn't the problem, then how does turning the shirt inside out suddenly make their behavior better? That's right, it doesn't. The shirts themselves were perceived as the offense, not the students' behavior.

[Gelston]

It's simple to me really; it should never be illegal to wave an American flag or wear an American flag shirt. Ever.

If the kids were actually causing problems...OTHER than wearing the shirt...then fine, send them home for being little shits. But as I said earlier in the thread if the kids were really causing problems, and the shirt itself wasn't the problem, then how does turning the shirt inside out suddenly make their behavior better? That's right, it doesn't. The shirts themselves were perceived as the offense, not the students' behavior.

I don't think it should be illegal to wear or wave ANY flag ever. I remember this story about a black kid that had a Confederate flag in his window. The college made him take it down, then he was allowed to put it back up on appeals.

[JackWhisper]

I'm actually a bit conflicted about this. I think that the American flag takes priority. But that is only because we LIVE in America.

Anything that tries to negate this statement just smacks of FUCK OFF GO LIVE IN NICARAGUA THEN.

[Back]

It's simple to me really; it should never be illegal to wave an American flag or wear an American flag shirt. Ever.

If the kids were actually causing problems...OTHER than wearing the shirt...then fine, send them home for being little shits. But as I said earlier in the thread if the kids were really causing problems, and the shirt itself wasn't the problem, then how does turning the shirt inside out suddenly make their behavior better? That's right, it doesn't. The shirts themselves were perceived as the offense, not the students' behavior.

I get that you are proud to be an American. Lets put it another way.

Let's say its American Indian Heritage day. Would it be cool for European Americans to show up waving European American flags?

[Tgo01]

I don't think it should be illegal to wear or wave ANY flag ever.

I can get behind that.


I'm actually a bit conflicted about this. I think that the American flag takes priority. But that is only because we LIVE in America.

Fuck off and go live in Nicaragua then!


I get that you are proud to be an American. Lets put it another way.

Let's say its American Indian Heritage day. Would it be cool for European Americans to show up waving European American flags?

Sure, why not? But I'm one of those crazy people who think everyone should have a right to be heard.

When you want to silence one group of people, whether that is just one particular day of the year or one particular day of the week, then it's wrong.

Should the Mexican kids be banned from wearing Mexico's flag colors on Fourth of July?

[Androidpk]

And what is wrong with them doing that? They allowed the KKK to protest against blacks going to a public school. Wait, who tried to compare the US flag to the KKK in this thread? Oh. You. Guess what.... It happened.

KKK students?

[Gelston]

KKK students?

Some of them likely were.

[Androidpk]

KKK students?

And like YOU said..

> If people are using the Flag of the United States of America, the flag the people have died under, to incite violence... They can go eat a dick.

[Gelston]

And like YOU said..

> If people are using the Flag of the United States of America, the flag the people have died under, to incite violence... They can go eat a dick.

And like I said later, it is their right.

[Androidpk]

It's simple to me really; it should never be illegal to wave an American flag or wear an American flag shirt. Ever.

If the kids were actually causing problems...OTHER than wearing the shirt...then fine, send them home for being little shits. But as I said earlier in the thread if the kids were really causing problems, and the shirt itself wasn't the problem, then how does turning the shirt inside out suddenly make their behavior better? That's right, it doesn't. The shirts themselves were perceived as the offense, not the students' behavior.

It was the students act in wearing those shirts and bandanas, not the article of clothings. And instead of immediately sending the kids home they were given a choice, which itself is more than fair.

[Gelston]

I would still prefer them to eat and choke on a dick though.

[Androidpk]

Should the Mexican kids be banned from wearing Mexico's flag colors on Fourth of July?

If it was being done on purpose to incite violence then absolutely.

[Tgo01]

It was the students act in wearing those shirts and bandanas, not the article of clothings.

I don't get it. Either their behavior was disruptive enough to get called on it or it wasn't. How does whatever you are wearing make how you are acting different?

If I say "Gays should go to hell" but I'm wearing a shirt with a peace sign on it does it somehow lesson my actions?

Likewise if I say "Go home Mexicans!" is my behavior more disruptive by wearing an American flag shirt instead of wearing a plain shirt?

[Androidpk]

And like I said later, it is their right.

This is a motherfucking highschool which means their rights are trumped by the school.

[Tgo01]

If it was being done on purpose to incite violence then absolutely.

See this is what I can't wrap my mind around; how does the act of wearing a freaking shirt incite violence?

If a shirt is inciting violence at this school then the school has some major fucking problems they have let fester for years instead of addressing head on.

[Gelston]

This is a motherfucking highschool which means their rights are trumped by the school.

And High Schools are trumped by the Constitution of the United States of America.

Hell, High Schools are trumped by the Parish School Board.

[Back]

I can get behind that.



Fuck off and go live in Nicaragua then!



Sure, why not? But I'm one of those crazy people who think everyone should have a right to be heard.

When you want to silence one group of people, whether that is just one particular day of the year or one particular day of the week, then it's wrong.

Should the Mexican kids be banned from wearing Mexico's flag colors on Fourth of July?

That depends on where you stand on just plain human decency.

This begs the question... what does being American mean? Is it "Fuk Yeah Murica!" or is it "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."?

[Gelston]

That depends on where you stand on just plain human decency.

This begs the question... what does being American mean? Is it "Fuk Yeah Murica!" or is it "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."?

Yes, Back. Reread that.

[Tgo01]

That depends on where you stand on just plain human decency.

This begs the question... what does being American mean? Is it "Fuk Yeah Murica!" or is it "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."?

Where in there does it say Americans have to kowtow to people who get their feelings easily hurt and we have to outlaw certain behaviors because of certain people being giant crybabies? I especially like how you use this as an argument in favor of the school and yet right there it says "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."

I guess securing our liberty means we just roll over and let people dictate what we can and cannot wear.

[JackWhisper]

Man... there were a lot of randomly capitalized words in that statement!

[Androidpk]

And High Schools are trumped by the Constitution of the United States of America.

Hell, High Schools are trumped by the Parish School Board.

And under certain circumstances, mainly involving safety, the school can and will curb student's first amendment rights and they have the legal right to do so.

[Back]

Yes, Back. Reread that.


Where in there does it say Americans have to kowtow to people who get their feelings easily hurt and we have to outlaw certain behaviors because of certain people being giant crybabies? I especially like how you use this as an argument in favor of the school and yet right there it says "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity."

I guess securing our liberty means we just roll over and let people dictate what we can and cannot wear.

To me it means that we believe that all people should be respected. That we are inclusive rather than exclusive being immigrants ourselves.

[Androidpk]

See this is what I can't wrap my mind around; how does the act of wearing a freaking shirt incite violence?

If a shirt is inciting violence at this school then the school has some major fucking problems they have let fester for years instead of addressing head on.

Let's just chalk this up to you being a complete and utter moron. It's clear your are going to believe whatever you want despite information existing in the article you linked (but clearly didn't read) as well as other sources of information out there.

[Gelston]

And under certain circumstances, mainly involving safety, the school can and will curb student's first amendment rights and they have the legal right to do so.

I I believe that is unconstitutional. No Amendments should be "curbed" except in the case of felons.

Say you have a 17 year old, why can a high school step on his or her rights? Say they were 18.

[JackWhisper]

+1 for using kowtow in a conversation, TGO.

[Tgo01]

Back I'm honestly curious, how often in your life have you really been exposed to multiple cultures? No, waiting on a black couple at your restaurant doesn't count. I mean actually spending hours every day for months on in with people from many diverse backgrounds?

Because reading your posts I can't help but feel you are a bleeding heart liberal who is basically a shut in when it comes to being exposed to other cultures so you tend to go overboard in these sorts of situations because you just assume the mean ol' whitey is always wrong.

I went to the same school system my entire public school going life where whites were not a majority, there was also around 100 different ethnic and religious groups and a sizable portion of the student body could not speak English.

There were Muslims, Christians, Jews, people in wheelchairs, people with mental disabilities, whites, blacks, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, Vietnamese, Filipino, Pacific Islanders; you name it they were probably at my school. I didn't look down on anyone or treat them differently, most people didn't. For the most part the school got along great. Sure there were fights like any school has but those tended to be because someone looked at you wrong, not because someone looked wrong.

I went to school with these kids for years. I had a whole 2 white friends in high school.

You know what else? No one ever thought "Gee, maybe I shouldn't wear this today, it might offend someone." I went to school with girls who wore full body burkas and kids who wore pants down around their ankles.

I imagine you on the other hand went to a school system where 90+% of the student body was white. I'm right, right?

[Tgo01]

Let's just chalk this up to you being a complete and utter moron. It's clear your are going to believe whatever you want despite information existing in the article you linked (but clearly didn't read) as well as other sources of information out there.

What are you talking about? Where in the article I linked does it say the students in question were being disruptive or causing problems? It simply says they were asked to turn their shirts inside out because of "ongoing racial tensions."

[Androidpk]

I I believe that is unconstitutional. No Amendments should be "curbed" except in the case of felons.

Say you have a 17 year old, why can a high school step on his or her rights? Say they were 18.

It isn't a matter of age but if they are a student or not. Yes, students have constitutional rights. I'm not denying that. As I said though given matters of safety the school can curb students rights. There was a supreme court ruling on this back in 1969 that gives schools the precedent to do so.

[Gelston]

It isn't a matter of age but if they are a student or not. Yes, students have constitutional rights. I'm not denying that. As I said though given matters of safety the school can curb students rights. There was a supreme court ruling on this back in 1969 that gives schools the precedent to do so.

Post the case?

[Androidpk]

What are you talking about? Where in the article I linked does it say the students in question were being disruptive or causing problems? It simply says they were asked to turn their shirts inside out because of "ongoing racial tensions."

LOL, yes, all those students showed up on cinco de mayo, wearing t-shirts and bandanas with US flags on them simply because they love terrible fashion. Derp. Why didn't I think of that! I'm sure they were in no way trying to be inciteful like the year prior.

[Androidpk]

Post the case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_ District#The_Court.27s_decision

[Androidpk]

Back I'm honestly curious, how often in your life have you really been exposed to multiple cultures? No, waiting on a black couple at your restaurant doesn't count. I mean actually spending hours every day for months on in with people from many diverse backgrounds?

Because reading your posts I can't help but feel you are a bleeding heart liberal who is basically a shut in when it comes to being exposed to other cultures so you tend to go overboard in these sorts of situations because you just assume the mean ol' whitey is always wrong.

I went to the same school system my entire public school going life where whites were not a majority, there was also around 100 different ethnic and religious groups and a sizable portion of the student body could not speak English.

There were Muslims, Christians, Jews, people in wheelchairs, people with mental disabilities, whites, blacks, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, Vietnamese, Filipino, Pacific Islanders; you name it they were probably at my school. I didn't look down on anyone or treat them differently, most people didn't. For the most part the school got along great. Sure there were fights like any school has but those tended to be because someone looked at you wrong, not because someone looked wrong.

I went to school with these kids for years. I had a whole 2 white friends in high school.

You know what else? No one ever thought "Gee, maybe I shouldn't wear this today, it might offend someone." I went to school with girls who wore full body burkas and kids who wore pants down around their ankles.

I imagine you on the other hand went to a school system where 90+% of the student body was white. I'm right, right?

Obviously all that diversity did shit for you if you think it's okay to be disrespectful to people of other nationalities.

[Back]

Back I'm honestly curious, how often in your life have you really been exposed to multiple cultures? No, waiting on a black couple at your restaurant doesn't count. I mean actually spending hours every day for months on in with people from many diverse backgrounds?

Because reading your posts I can't help but feel you are a bleeding heart liberal who is basically a shut in when it comes to being exposed to other cultures so you tend to go overboard in these sorts of situations because you just assume the mean ol' whitey is always wrong.

I went to the same school system my entire public school going life where whites were not a majority, there was also around 100 different ethnic and religious groups and a sizable portion of the student body could not speak English.

There were Muslims, Christians, Jews, people in wheelchairs, people with mental disabilities, whites, blacks, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, Vietnamese, Filipino, Pacific Islanders; you name it they were probably at my school. I didn't look down on anyone or treat them differently, most people didn't. For the most part the school got along great. Sure there were fights like any school has but those tended to be because someone looked at you wrong, not because someone looked wrong.

I went to school with these kids for years. I had a whole 2 white friends in high school.

You know what else? No one ever thought "Gee, maybe I shouldn't wear this today, it might offend someone." I went to school with girls who wore full body burkas and kids who wore pants down around their ankles.

I imagine you on the other hand went to a school system where 90+% of the student body was white. I'm right, right?

My family is multi-racial. We have Spanish, African, English, German, American Indian, French, and Welsh. My surname is Welsh.

I've lived in Los Angeles, New York City, and Washington DC. I have been to England, Paris, Israel, Japan, and Mexico. I'm currently looking into a trip to Portugal.

[Tgo01]

LOL, yes, all those students showed up on cinco de mayo, wearing t-shirts and bandanas with US flags on them simply because they love terrible fashion. Derp. Why didn't I think of that! I'm sure they were in no way trying to be inciteful like the year prior.

Yeah, I hear ya. What are people thinking wearing American flag shirts in America? I thought this was America!

[Gelston]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_ District#The_Court.27s_decision

You realize that case showed the 1st Amendment DID apply to schools right?

[Androidpk]

You realize that case showed the 1st Amendment DID apply to schools right?

Yes. Because it wasn't disruptive. If it had been disruptive, as in this situation with the Cali school, it would have been overturned.

[JackWhisper]

My family makeup is... other than white mutt European on my father's side.... Cherokee, German, Italian, Scottish, Irish, and Russian.

That means I....
Gamble
Fuck
Eat
Drink
Drink
Drink

Oh yeah. Winning.

[Tgo01]

Obviously all that diversity did shit for you if you think it's okay to be disrespectful to people of other nationalities.

Where did I say it was okay to be disrespectful to people of other nationalities? I disagree with the notion of wearing an American flag shirt is "inciting violence."


My family is multi-racial. We have Spanish, African, English, German, American Indian, French, and Welsh. My surname is Welsh.

I like how 5 of the 7 nationalities you listed there are European yet you included them in an effort to make it seem like your family is really multi-racial.

[Back]

My family makeup is... other than white mutt European on my father's side.... Cherokee, German, Italian, Scottish, Irish, and Russian.

That means I....
Gamble
Fuck
Eat
Drink
Drink
Drink

Oh yeah. Winning.

And this is what I mean about accepting yourself and others. We are a nation of immigrants. Know your roots. Accept your own roots before you judge others.

[Back]

Where did I say it was okay to be disrespectful to people of other nationalities? I disagree with the notion of wearing an American flag shirt is "inciting violence."



I like how 5 of the 7 nationalities you listed there are European yet you included them in an effort to make it seem like your family is really multi-racial.

Glad you approve because God knows I need it from you.

[Tgo01]

Glad you approve because God knows I need it from you.

You were the one who offered this information.

[leifastagsweed]

My family makeup is... other than white mutt European on my father's side.... Cherokee, German, Italian, Scottish, Irish, and Russian.

That means I....
Gamble
Fuck
Eat
Drink
Drink
Drink

Oh yeah. Winning.

For a people who historically hated each other, it seems a LOT of us over on this rock have Scots *and* Irish!

[Back]

You were the one who offered this information.

You asked. And you are back on ignore. Ciao.

[Gelston]

For a people who historically hated each other, it seems a LOT of us over on this rock have Scots *and* Irish!

I have two villages and a castle with my name pal.

[Tgo01]

You asked. And you are back on ignore. Ciao.

Actually I asked a very specific question that you never once even got close to answering in your inane rambling.

But it's cool Back. I understand you're a gigantic pussy and can't stand someone with a differing opinion than your own. Hey, maybe if you put a few more select people on ignore you can have your very own echo chamber :D

[Androidpk]

Where did I say it was okay to be disrespectful to people of other nationalities? I disagree with the notion of wearing an American flag shirt is "inciting violence."



I like how 5 of the 7 nationalities you listed there are European yet you included them in an effort to make it seem like your family is really multi-racial.

It's called precedence. In 2009 a group of white students incited violence with their actions, causing huge safety concerns. The following year a group of kids show up in flag apparel, most likely for the same reason as the year prior. The school administration had every right to step in and prevent another situation from happening.

[JackWhisper]

Leifa -

As I understood it from my grams, one of my ancestors on the Irish side, a female, decided to hit it off with an across-the-field type guy, who was Scottish. Thus, my lineage. Like Romeo and Juliet but... without all the suicide, and family hatred on a much larger scale.

[leifastagsweed]

I have two villages and a castle with my name pal.

I ain't your pal, doolie.

[JackWhisper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIdJbl-ivQk

[Tgo01]

It's called precedence. In 2009 a group of white students incited violence with their actions, causing huge safety concerns. The following year a group of kids show up in flag apparel, most likely for the same reason as the year prior. The school administration had every right to step in and prevent another situation from happening.

Actually your "precedence" is bullshit because in the previous incident the students' actions were what was causing the problem, not the presence of the flag.

[Gelston]

Yes. Because it wasn't disruptive. If it had been disruptive, as in this situation with the Cali school, it would have been overturned.

Yeah, that means nothing. The only thing that case shows is that the 1st Amendment applies to schools. It didn't rule on anything else. This would have to go back to the Supreme court.

[leifastagsweed]

Leifa -

As I understood it from my grams, one of my ancestors on the Irish side, a female, decided to hit it off with an across-the-field type guy, who was Scottish. Thus, my lineage. Like Romeo and Juliet but... without all the suicide, and family hatred on a much larger scale.

Cool story...seriously!!! I remember commentary about 'the old country' that the women were all screaming banshees that went wailing and crying and clawing at their faces in the woods at night. I would hear this story when I was a child and it scared me. When I was older, I'd hear it whenever any of us females were basically losing our shit. Lore/repertoire/propaganda. I would rather hear romantic stories like yours and leave our skeletons, or in this case, wailing ethereal night creatures, in the closet!

[Gelston]

Yeah, that means nothing. The only thing that case shows is that the 1st Amendment applies to schools. It didn't rule on anything else. This would have to go back to the Supreme court.

There were Levay Satanists (God mocking Atheists) that used the same ruling to wear pentagrams and such. They were allowed based on this ruling.

[Androidpk]

Yeah, that means nothing. The only thing that case shows is that the 1st Amendment applies to schools. It didn't rule on anything else. This would have to go back to the Supreme court.

Read it more closely.

[Androidpk]

Actually your "precedence" is bullshit because in the previous incident the students' actions were what was causing the problem, not the presence of the flag.

The incident in 2009 included a US flag too.

[Androidpk]

Yeah, that means nothing. The only thing that case shows is that the 1st Amendment applies to schools. It didn't rule on anything else. This would have to go back to the Supreme court.

The Court held that in order for school officials to justify censoring speech, they "must be able to show that [their] action was caused by something more than a mere desire to avoid the discomfort and unpleasantness that always accompany an unpopular viewpoint," allowing schools to forbid conduct that would "materially and substantially interfere with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school."

Schools today still use this ruling for this very reason and the courts that ruled in this flag case cited it as well.

[Gelston]

Um, read it all. If the current stuff was covered by this ruling it would have been turned down by the court of appeals in the first place.

[Back]

There were Levay Satanists (God mocking Atheists) that used the same ruling to wear pentagrams and such. They were allowed based on this ruling.

Off topic: I think it is hilarious that Satan monuments are protected by our laws.

[Tgo01]

The incident in 2009 included a US flag too.

Yes, but the students' actions were what caused the problem, the flag had nothing to do with it.

Let's pretend the flag wasn't there in the 2009 incident, would that have lessened the conflict?

[Androidpk]

Off topic: I think it is hilarious that Satan monuments are protected by our laws.

I don't. Freedom of religion, yo.

[Gelston]

How did this school show it was something more than "their discomfort or displeasure" that these students were wearing US flag shirts?

[Gelston]

Off topic: I think it is hilarious that Satan monuments are protected by our laws.

I dont. They should be just as much as anything else.

No religion is above another. If that shit is historical or protected under US laws on religion, I see no issue.

Also, what Satanic Monuments?

[Back]

I don't. Freedom of religion, yo.

Thats what I find funny. I agree with that. But you know there is some fundamentalist Christian American who would be opposed to it.

[Androidpk]

How did this school show it was something more than "their discomfort or displeasure" that these students were wearing US flag shirts?

According to school faculty they based their decision off of the events from the previous cinco de mayo. The courts both agreed that since there was a history of racial tension and violence then the administration had the right to pre-empt any problems from happening again based off the ongoing situation.

[Androidpk]

Thats what I find funny. I agree with that. But you know there is some fundamentalist Christian American who would be opposed to it.

Probably the same type of Christians that swear up and down that this country was founded on Christianity.

[Back]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

[Gelston]

I can bold parts of the Constitution too, so?

[Gelston]

According to school faculty they based their decision off of the events from the previous cinco de mayo. The courts both agreed that since there was a history of racial tension and violence then the administration had the right to pre-empt any problems from happening again based off the ongoing situation.

Ah, so it was worse then the late 60s during Vietnam. Like, when people wearing Black Arm bands were killed by the National Guard, which preempted that ruling.

But hey, the Supreme Court said they could wear them in public schools.

[Back]

I can bold parts of the Constitution too, so?

That was the Preamble. But, freedom of speech, bro.

[Androidpk]

Ah, so it was worse then the late 60s during Vietnam. Like, when people wearing Black Arm bands were killed by the National Guard, which preempted that ruling.

But hey, the Supreme Court said they could wear them in public schools.

When did the guard do that?

[Gelston]

That was the Preamble. But, freedom of speech, bro.

So, the preamble isn't part of the Constitution?

[Gelston]

When did the guard do that?

Sorry, it was after. The Guardsmen were tried though. It was a legal shooting at all. Guess it doesn't matter for those dead folks. They were hippies anyways.

[Androidpk]

Hippies practicing their constitutional right to freedom of speech!

[Gelston]

It sickens me that hippies created the cases to defend this stuff.

[Androidpk]

It sickens me that hippies created the cases to defend this stuff.

:lol2: x infinity

[Warriorbird]

Important note: High school students don't actually have the right to free speech.

Hippie addendum: See the "Bong Hits 4 Jesus" case

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick

The cute black armband case doesn't apply, sadly. It's been interpreted to apply to anything that causes disruptions/violations of the rules. Thus, banning the kids who are wearing it to cause problems is just fine. Banning the kids who aren't is not. It would also apply to Mexican flag wearing if that was meant to mean MS-13 membership or something like that.

[Androidpk]

I want that shirt..

[Methais]

I get that you are proud to be an American. Lets put it another way.

Let's say its American Indian Heritage day. Would it be cool for European Americans to show up waving European American flags?

What does a European American flag look like?

[Methais]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIdJbl-ivQk

Van Damme does kinda look like a dickface now that I think about it.


We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

I bet you think the general welfare part means free handouts for people who won't work.


Try harder at being racist.

Since you won't explain your point here because upon further review you probably realized that your reason for calling my post racist makes you the racist one, I'm going to assume that you called my Red Sox/Yankees analogy racist because you assume that Mexicans are greasy, to which I say again, you are the racist here, good sir.

Because when I say greasy Yankees fan, I mean it.

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/b/brooklynbrawler/03.jpg

[Warriorbird]

I want that shirt..

Original banner

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d6/Bong_Hits_for_Jesus.jpg/1280px-Bong_Hits_for_Jesus.jpg

[Tgo01]

Important note: High school students don't actually have the right to free speech.

Actually students do have the right to free speech except in very specific cases, namely:

The speech will be a disruption to the learning environment.
The speech would violate other people's rights.
The speech is vulgar or offensive.
The speech is in a school sponsored medium (newspaper, yearbook, etc), in which case the school may censor the speech if it's reasonably related to education.

That's it. Schools must tread a very fine line when limiting a student's free speech because they do not simply lose their right to free speech the moment they step on school property.

[Silvean]

Actually students do have the right to free speech except in very specific cases

We have different definitions of "specific."

[Tgo01]

We have different definitions of "specific."

True. True.

[Latrinsorm]

So then we need to figure out who was inciting the violence, in this case...the kids wearing the American flags, or the kids threatening them because of it? If it's the kids wearing the American flags, we need to seriously reconsider what our standard is for "inciting violence"....if the presence of our Nation's flag incites violence in people living in our country, those people need to seriously consider relocating to a country they don't find so offensive.The flag is a symbol and can thus be used with very different intents, in the same way that a racial slur can be used in varying ways and elicit different responses. There's no evidence that the mere presence of our Nation's flag incites the people in question to violence, and the absence of that evidence is suggestive. Even in California people are going to see the flag frequently, but these students were only incited by these other particular students. They didn't smash up a VFW, they didn't form a mob at the sight of a politician wearing a lapel pin, etc. Therefore the school removed the tool used to incite - problem solved.
"White power" and "black power" were simplistic, abbreviated examples for a theme...I have a parallel for you...
"I am a Republican, and proud of it!"
"I am a Nazi, and proud of it!"
Do you have an identical response to the two hypothetical people? Obviously you're not going to answer this question, so I'll go ahead and complete the illustration: not all nouns can be substituted for other nouns, not all adjectives can be substituted for other adjectives. You don't care for the current climate of race relations, so you think black power and white power are close enough to be comparable. You do care for the current climate of politics, so Republican and Nazi aren't close enough to be comparable. The theme you detail is "these things really grind Thondalar's gears", nothing more.
However, freedom of speech is freedom of fucking speech isn't it? No matter what reason. It is legal to walk around with a billboard at a Service members funeral with signs saying God Hates Fags and Thank God for IEDS. You know what? I fucking hate those people but they have that right. As does any person wearing anything they want.The active ingredient is not how much someone else likes the speech, but what a reasonable person can anticipate that speech causing. There are no absolute freedoms in the Constitution. There never have been.
If the kids were actually causing problems...OTHER than wearing the shirt...then fine, send them home for being little shits. But as I said earlier in the thread if the kids were really causing problems, and the shirt itself wasn't the problem, then how does turning the shirt inside out suddenly make their behavior better? That's right, it doesn't. The shirts themselves were perceived as the offense, not the students' behavior.In the same way that taking matches away from a prospective arsonist removes the problem of arson. Fire can be used to cook food, save a chilled person's life, all kinds of good - but this does not make it impossible to use for ill.
See this is what I can't wrap my mind around; how does the act of wearing a freaking shirt incite violence?You're being purposefully naive now.

[Tgo01]

In the same way that taking matches away from a prospective arsonist removes the problem of arson.

Really? Taking away an arsonist's matches makes him suddenly not want to start fires? Oh to live in Latrin World :D


You're being purposefully naive now.

No.

[Latrinsorm]

Really? Taking away an arsonist's matches makes him suddenly not want to start fires? Oh to live in Latrin World :D

No.His desire is not the problem, Mr. Thought Police. The problem is when he burns things.

[Tgo01]

His desire is not the problem, Mr. Thought Police. The problem is when he burns things.

His desire to start a fire is not the problem? You sure about that?

So if someone is acting like a jackass and inciting violence then telling them to turn their shirt inside out makes them want to stop acting like a jackass and inciting violence?

Again, to live in Latrin World where things are so simple. "Hey Mister Killer, we see you have a weapon there so we're just gonna...yeah take it away then you'll never kill again. Problem solved!"