Affirmative Action and cultural needs [Archive] - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Candor

08-19-2014, 07:04 PM

Gelston

08-19-2014, 07:10 PM

I'd be interested in knowing how many black folks try to become cops in the Ferguson area. I don't have any numbers on this, but even with Affirmative Action, if no one is signing up it doesn't change much.

Thondalar

08-19-2014, 07:17 PM

I often do not support Affirmative Action programs. However, I am not absolute on the subject as I believe there need to be a few exceptions.

There are communities where the people very much want to have doctors and dentists who are of the same heritage. For example, there are Hispanic communities where some of the people would not trust a doctor or dentist who was not Hispanic. We could argue why this is and how attitudes might be changed over time, but the simple fact is that such attitudes, regardless of their cause, create a need for professionals of a certain ethnicity. As such, I understand how medical and dental schools would have small quotas to meet this need. Medical professionals are not the only example that could be made.

The recent events in Missouri are another good example. Like it or not, the truth is that there needs to be more black police officers in the Ferguson area. We could argue how that is a shame and it shouldn't matter what the color is of the officer is and etc, but the unfortunate truth is that it *does* matter. Ferguson officials have complained that they have had trouble retaining black officers. Well my message to these people is: Tough cookies. Find the reasons why and fix it. Recruit out of the area if needed, but solve the problem. Surely what has happened over the last several days would be enough motivation.

Views like this don't exactly endear me to conservative friends, but I don't hear better solutions. Implementing martial law, as one friend suggested, isn't going to get the right results.

As others have stated, you can't force minorities to do things they don't want to do. Everything is on record now...is there some evidence that local law enforcement is purposely overlooking qualified minority candidates for the police force? Certainly that would be grounds for some sort of action. We find the same thing in highly technical profession fields...Google is falling all over themselves to hire qualified minorities. They caught a lot of shit about their lack of minorities in key positions earlier this year...they promptly turned over volumes of data on their hiring practices, without being forced to. The result was simply the facts...that year, only two qualified minorities came out of the entire US for that position, and Microsoft got the other one.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. At what point are we going to stop being so afraid of being labeled a racist that we can call it what it is? The problem will never be fixed until we can do that...I'm happy to see more and more black people in the media speaking out against it. Unfortunately the black community, as a whole, is still ignorant of the truth, and keeps voting Democrat and keeps calling people like Bill Cosby Uncle Toms because they speak the truth.

Back

08-19-2014, 07:23 PM

As others have stated, you can't force minorities to do things they don't want to do. Everything is on record now...is there some evidence that local law enforcement is purposely overlooking qualified minority candidates for the police force? Certainly that would be grounds for some sort of action. We find the same thing in highly technical profession fields...Google is falling all over themselves to hire qualified minorities. They caught a lot of shit about their lack of minorities in key positions earlier this year...they promptly turned over volumes of data on their hiring practices, without being forced to. The result was simply the facts...that year, only two qualified minorities came out of the entire US for that position, and Microsoft got the other one.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. At what point are we going to stop being so afraid of being labeled a racist that we can call it what it is? The problem will never be fixed until we can do that...I'm happy to see more and more black people in the media speaking out against it. Unfortunately the black community, as a whole, is still ignorant of the truth, and keeps voting Democrat and keeps calling people like Bill Cosby Uncle Toms because they speak the truth.

You were doing pretty well until that last line. Like with the Furgeson protests the well intentioned get lumped into what a much smaller group of troublemakers are doing.

Thondalar

08-19-2014, 07:37 PM

You were doing pretty well until that last line. Like with the Furgeson protests the well intentioned get lumped into what a much smaller group of troublemakers are doing.

I don't think you understand what I was getting at. I'll speak plainly.

Black popular culture conditions black youths to not go to school, not work hard, and live a life of crime and fast money. Couple this with the incredibly high rate of blacks born to single mothers, with no positive male influence, and you wonder why you have the situation we do. What I find interesting is that people who prescribe to this lifestyle, regardless of race, end up pretty much in the same position...go check out a trailer park some time. Members of the black community who point to these things, which any psychologist and/or sociologist would say are the main factors, are instantly considered pariahs in the community, because another part of the popular culture is to blame someone else for your problems. Taking responsibility for your own actions and your own well-being is an alien concept.

Back

08-19-2014, 07:53 PM

I don't think you understand what I was getting at. I'll speak plainly.

Black popular culture conditions black youths to not go to school, not work hard, and live a life of crime and fast money. Couple this with the incredibly high rate of blacks born to single mothers, with no positive male influence, and you wonder why you have the situation we do.

I'd say that there are people in white popular culture who do the same. I'd say there are white single mothers with no positive male influence also. These things cross all cultures and are human problems not just black, white, or any other.

What I find interesting is that people who prescribe to this lifestyle, regardless of race, end up pretty much in the same position...go check out a trailer park some time.

Considering my previous statement I would agree. Other factors include environment and income. I'd go so far as to say our system has something to do with it also but mainly economically.

Members of the black community who point to these things, which any psychologist and/or sociologist would say are the main factors, are instantly considered pariahs in the community, because another part of the popular culture is to blame someone else for your problems.

This I disagree with. The majority is not represented by a vocal minority. I'm not saying there aren't misguided people out there just that they are in all groups and tend to be louder than most people.

Taking responsibility for your own actions and your own well-being is an alien concept.

This I also disagree with. I think the majority of people do value taking responsibility for their actions. All of these things are not isolated to one racial group or another. These are human issues.

Thondalar

08-19-2014, 08:02 PM

I'd say that there are people in white popular culture who do the same. I'd say there are white single mothers with no positive male influence also. These things cross all cultures and are human problems not just black, white, or any other.Considering my previous statement I would agree. Other factors include environment and income. I'd go so far as to say our system has something to do with it also but mainly economically.

I said this part crosses races. But the end result is the same...when you have these conditions, you generally grow up to be poor or in prison. Environment and income are the result of environment and income. It's a cycle. TONS of minorities have broken this cycle...why haven't the rest? They all grew up in the same circumstances...could it just be a function of human nature? Some humans have drive, and want to do more...and some simply don't?

This I disagree with. The majority is not represented by a vocal minority. I'm not saying there aren't misguided people out there just that they are in all groups and tend to be louder than most people.

And this is where you're an idiot. You like to say that there's a problem that needs to be fixed, you agree with me what the problem is, but when it comes to taking personal responsibility you're all "oh, well, I disagree with that...there must be some other reason"

This I also disagree with. I think the majority of people do value taking responsibility for your their actions. All of these things are not isolated to one racial group or another. These are human issues.

Very true. But the disparity is very obvious. If it's just a human issue, why is it so prevalent in the black community?

Back

08-19-2014, 08:30 PM

I said this part crosses races. But the end result is the same...when you have these conditions, you generally grow up to be poor or in prison. Environment and income are the result of environment and income. It's a cycle.

I would agree and that it can affect anyone of any race or culture. The majority of people who purchase rap music are white teenagers by the way.

TONS of minorities have broken this cycle...why haven't the rest? They all grew up in the same circumstances...could it just be a function of human nature? Some humans have drive, and want to do more...and some simply don't?

Tons of white people have broken the cycle why don't all of them? I would agree that some humans have more drive than others but I would not lump an entire race of people into a category because of the ones that don't.

And this is where you're an idiot. You like to say that there's a problem that needs to be fixed, you agree with me what the problem is, but when it comes to taking personal responsibility you're all "oh, well, I disagree with that...there must be some other reason"

So I'm an idiot for recognizing that a vocal minority does not represent a majority? Westboro Baptist Church are religious and pretty vocal but do not represent all Baptist Churches. To say all Baptist Churches are bad based on Westboro is kinda the same thing you are trying to do with the black community.

The things you keep pointing to about the black community are not about the majority of the black community. You are lumping the majority of the black community into your view of the minority.

Very true. But the disparity is very obvious. If it's just a human issue, why is it so prevalent in the black community?

I won't disagree that there are a larger percentage of certain statistics within each racial community. I will say something some people don't like to hear but if you take a look at American history there are certain factors that play into our current problems.

Warriorbird

08-19-2014, 08:34 PM

It very much depends on the area. I teach in a predominately black community with no shortage of black police officers. On the other hand there's only 20% black members of the Board of Supervisors.

Jeril

08-19-2014, 09:27 PM

Kind of interesting. I think figure 7 disputes some of what Back has been saying as well. Those numbers are only for 2011, but I doubt they've changed much.

http://www.nccp.org/publications/pub_1074.html

Here is an article and what it shows isn't really that shocking I think, by raw numbers there are more poor white people but when shown as a % against the total of white people it is less then the % of other minorities except for Asians.

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2012/02/14/more-white-children-in-low-income-families-than-any-other-racial-group/

Tons of white people have broken the cycle why don't all of them? I would agree that some humans have more drive than others but I would not lump an entire race of people into a category because of the ones that don't.

The same reason the other people don't, breaking that cycle is hard and no one really wants to put in the work to change it, just pay lip service to the idea of changing it. Considering one is looking at 20-25 years to see any real change from the time changes are made and likely another 30 years to see how it affects that next generation. People are into their instant gratification way too much.

ClydeR

08-19-2014, 09:55 PM

I often do not support Affirmative Action programs. However, I am not absolute on the subject as I believe there need to be a few exceptions.

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race," said Chief Justice John Roberts (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/18/Eric-Holder-Attacks-John-Roberts-Colorblindness-Not-Best-Way-to-End-Discrimination). Affirmative action necessarily involves discrimination on the basis of race. No matter how noble your intentions, it's still wrong. You want exceptions to the rule for those times when you think an exception is needed. Just follow the Constitution.

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 05:11 AM

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race," said Chief Justice John Roberts (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/18/Eric-Holder-Attacks-John-Roberts-Colorblindness-Not-Best-Way-to-End-Discrimination). Affirmative action necessarily involves discrimination on the basis of race. No matter how noble your intentions, it's still wrong. You want exceptions to the rule for those times when you think an exception is needed. Just follow the Constitution.

Lol at Clyde actually saying something that's totally true.

What's wrong with equality? Well, we can't have equality because apparently there is some sort of rampant racist underground that is keeping minorities from achieving. Everyone makes fun of conspiracy theories except when it applies to racism. It's only racist if white people do it...if minorities do it it's all fine and dandy. Eye for an eye? Quid pro quo? How about wrong is wrong? When can we get back to that?

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 05:24 AM

I would agree and that it can affect anyone of any race or culture. The majority of people who purchase rap music are white teenagers by the way.

White teenagers outnumber the population of black teenagers. Even if a minority of total white teenagers purchase rap music, it's still going to be higher than the total black purchasers of rap music. This in no way invalidates the effect of black music in popular culture. Quit trying to make stupid excuses and face the fucking problem.

Tons of white people have broken the cycle why don't all of them? I would agree that some humans have more drive than others but I would not lump an entire race of people into a category because of the ones that don't.

Maybe you're too stupid to understand the part where I said there are tons of successful black people, and the only difference between them and the unsuccessful ones is drive.

So I'm an idiot for recognizing that a vocal minority does not represent a majority? Westboro Baptist Church are religious and pretty vocal but do not represent all Baptist Churches. To say all Baptist Churches are bad based on Westboro is kinda the same thing you are trying to do with the black community.

No, you're an idiot for making excuses because you're terrified at the thought of blaming black people for their own situation because you've been trained to think that's racist. The racist part is where you think they're different from anyone else, and need coddling. Personally, if I were a black male, I'd be absolutely offended by your stance on this topic. You're basically saying black people are stupid and incapable of accomplishing anything without being helped.

The things you keep pointing to about the black community are not about the majority of the black community. You are lumping the majority of the black community into your view of the minority.

Really? Like what?

I won't disagree that there are a larger percentage of certain statistics within each racial community. I will say something some people don't like to hear but if you take a look at American history there are certain factors that play into our current problems.

I'm all for it. Take a good look at American history. Please? The blacks in this country that actually lived in some sort of racist environment are dying out like Vietnam vets. Did racism exist after the 60's? Of course it did. It also existed well before the 60's for Poles, and Irish, and Italians, and tons of other whites. But that's ok because they were white, so it doesn't count. Systemic, Institutionalized racism hasn't existed since before you were born, so give it up already. Quit blaming the straw man and own your life.

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 05:53 AM

Gelston

08-20-2014, 06:06 AM

I'm glad that you're here to tell black people that there is no racism.

Only male Caucasians and Asians know how to use the internet.

Jarvan

08-20-2014, 06:14 AM

I often do not support Affirmative Action programs. However, I am not absolute on the subject as I believe there need to be a few exceptions.

There are communities where the people very much want to have doctors and dentists who are of the same heritage. For example, there are Hispanic communities where some of the people would not trust a doctor or dentist who was not Hispanic. We could argue why this is and how attitudes might be changed over time, but the simple fact is that such attitudes, regardless of their cause, create a need for professionals of a certain ethnicity. As such, I understand how medical and dental schools would have small quotas to meet this need. Medical professionals are not the only example that could be made.

The recent events in Missouri are another good example. Like it or not, the truth is that there needs to be more black police officers in the Ferguson area. We could argue how that is a shame and it shouldn't matter what the color is of the officer is and etc, but the unfortunate truth is that it *does* matter. Ferguson officials have complained that they have had trouble retaining black officers. Well my message to these people is: Tough cookies. Find the reasons why and fix it. Recruit out of the area if needed, but solve the problem. Surely what has happened over the last several days would be enough motivation.

Views like this don't exactly endear me to conservative friends, but I don't hear better solutions. Implementing martial law, as one friend suggested, isn't going to get the right results.

The most qualified candidates should always be hired. Period.

Sorry.. but if people need specific race cops on the force to not riot, loot, and start attacking the police when something happens that they don't like (Be it a valid reason or not) those people need to get the fuck out of the country. This applies to all races.

Altho.. I do have to point out.. I can't really remember the last time there was a national news story about a bunch of Asian people rioting and looting in the street after a police incident.

Gelston

08-20-2014, 06:36 AM

Depends if you consider Polynesians to be Asian or not. Although, the size of the riots barely give them a blurb on the news.

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 06:37 AM

The most qualified candidates should always be hired. Period.

Sorry.. but if people need specific race cops on the force to not riot, loot, and start attacking the police when something happens that they don't like (Be it a valid reason or not) those people need to get the fuck out of the country. This applies to all races.

Altho.. I do have to point out.. I can't really remember the last time there was a national news story about a bunch of Asian people rioting and looting in the street after a police incident.

And with the removal of affirmative action you can fight to make sure that certain candidates are just ignored. Stay strong!

JackWhisper

08-20-2014, 07:09 AM

A little 'Whoa' for the lulz of it.

My family - White. Heritage mixed in due to relationships.
One father - employed and married
One mother - employed and married
One brother - employed and married to an employed, very nice, albeit strict with her child, Filipino woman.
One adopted-esque brother - employed and married to an unemployed *taking care of an infant currently before she goes back to work* very nice White woman.
One actually-adopted sister - Black, unemployed, married to an unemployed Mexican woman. Both very nice. No children. One very annoying Chihuahua.
One asshole - me. Employed with a 4 year old, soon to be 5, and an employed half-Japanese girlfriend.

My adopted sister's family - All black, without exception in the bloodline.
One mother - Unemployed by choice for as long as I have known her. Took on welfare purely because... and I quote... "If they're going to give me money, why should I bother working?"
No father to be found.
Three brothers - In jail for various drug charges. *Cocaine*
One brother - In jail for attempted murder and enough drugs to be charged with intent to distribute. *Cocaine* *His name is Johnny. He was one of my close friends growing up between 7 and 12*
One sister - In jail for robbery, assault and possession with intent to sell. *Cocaine*
One sister - Has a dozen children. And I mean a dozen. Twelve. She's what you call a welfare-pusher. She pops kids out and gets SERIOUS bank from the government. And I mean serious. She's rich because of it. A lot is spent on her, not the kids.
My adopted sister - Has stolen senior citizen's social security, robbed people, claimed some of her sister's children illegally on her taxes to gain a chunk of money, stolen food stamps from grocery stores to sell them for cash, and various other things.
The final sister *The eighth child in total* - An author. I know, amazing right? An actual author. Her subject matter? Oh, she wrote a book about the Cocaine drug ring her family set up in Oakland and Los Angeles and in California. She's semi-rich because of it. *facepalm*.

This is my family, and my adopted sister's family. White to black. No judgment, because I grew up with these people. I care for them with all my heart... except the welfare sister. I told her she was a flat out bitch because of how she treats her children and if she ever came near me again I'd run her over with my car. So we aren't on speaking terms. But the rest of them are part of my world.

Color matters because people raise their families differently. Not always, but on a vast level, the majority of what you see is bad. For blacks and whites. In this case, it's pretty obvious some frightening choices were made by my sister's family.

All the discussion in the world about what whites, blacks, yellows, and everyone else should or shouldn't do.... won't matter when things like this happen. Literally, it's just scary, and pretty sad. But our world is screwed up. Discrimination on the basis of race? Did that cause them to do what they did? Or did they take advantage?

Just thought I'd post this because it felt relevant to part of the conversation. If you don't think so, I'm pretty sure it's entertaining reading material. Enjoy.

Back

08-20-2014, 11:35 AM

White teenagers outnumber the population of black teenagers. Even if a minority of total white teenagers purchase rap music, it's still going to be higher than the total black purchasers of rap music. This in no way invalidates the effect of black music in popular culture. Quit trying to make stupid excuses and face the fucking problem.

It also does not invalidate the effect of similar white music in popular culture and how it affects the white community. Not all music from the black community is gangster rap. Not all music from the white community is orchestra. I'll repeat that there is white music that you would also call subversive. To condemn an entire race of people for the artistic expression of a minority of that race is frankly a little frightening.

Maybe you're too stupid to understand the part where I said there are tons of successful black people, and the only difference between them and the unsuccessful ones is drive.

All I said was I would not categorize an entire race of people because of the actions of a minority of them. Not sure why this upsets you. Everything you claim about the entire black community is based on a minority within that community. You can find the same minority in the white community, Latin, Asian, and every other community on the planet.

No, you're an idiot for making excuses because you're terrified at the thought of blaming black people for their own situation because you've been trained to think that's racist. The racist part is where you think they're different from anyone else, and need coddling. Personally, if I were a black male, I'd be absolutely offended by your stance on this topic. You're basically saying black people are stupid and incapable of accomplishing anything without being helped.

No where did I say or imply that black people are stupid and incapable of accomplishing anything without being helped. You are the one who seems to be saying that. Of course people do need to help themselves. Thats true of all people in all communities. I will also say that anyone who needs help in any of those communities should be able to get it.

Really? Like what?

Jeez you are making me work today. Here is your quote from this very thread that started our conversation.

Unfortunately the black community, as a whole, is still ignorant of the truth, and keeps voting Democrat and keeps calling people like Bill Cosby Uncle Toms because they speak the truth.

My issue with your statement is that I disagree. I'm not saying there aren't people who point blame at others for their own problems. You will find people like that in all communities.

Every issue you have with the black community you will see in every community of every race.

I'm all for it. Take a good look at American history. Please? The blacks in this country that actually lived in some sort of racist environment are dying out like Vietnam vets. Did racism exist after the 60's? Of course it did. It also existed well before the 60's for Poles, and Irish, and Italians, and tons of other whites. But that's ok because they were white, so it doesn't count. Systemic, Institutionalized racism hasn't existed since before you were born, so give it up already. Quit blaming the straw man and own your life.

If you are trying to say racism does not exist then I can only disagree with you. Like everything else you will find racists in all communities. But that minority of racists in the community does not make the whole community racist.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 12:17 PM

The blacks in this country that actually lived in some sort of racist environment are dying out like Vietnam vets.

Systemic, Institutionalized racism hasn't existed since before you were born, so give it up already. Quit blaming the straw man and own your life.

I'm glad that you're here to tell black people that there is no racism.

Except that isn't what he said at all. I wouldn't go quite as far as to compare the racists to dying Vietnam vets because while the vets die and aren't replaced some racists assholes manage to reproduce and their children carry on their legacy. How many people actually live in a racist environment and not one that is just tarnished a bit by some racists asshole? His point is still a valid one, racism isn't near as rampant as some people make it sound and it is slowly dying out. We won't see the end of it in our life times but things like affirmative action aren't helping the cause either. Things like that just let some racists say to their kids and other people "hey look, they are getting special treatment" and this will cause some to resent those getting special treatment which just continues the racism.

Another thing I've noticed about the cries for racism, there is no need to yell and scream about it, it isn't that people think if they ignore the problem it will go away but chances are you aren't going to change the mind of racists today. Yelling and screaming at them is like trying to get through to that old guy in the back of the room who isn't paying attention and has his hearing aids obviously dangling from a string around his neck. The racket made also just makes the rest of the people in the room want to tell you to shut the hell up. The people who bring up race whenever something involves people of different races also hurt the cause, it is like the boy who cried wolf. They are going to be right now and again but people are tired of hearing them and will get in the habit of telling them there is no wolf and to go away.

It also does not invalidate the effect of similar white music in popular culture and how it affects the white community. Not all music from the black community is gangster rap. Not all music from the white community is orchestra. I'll repeat that there is white music that you would also call subversive. To condemn an entire race of people for the artistic expression of a minority of that race is frankly a little frightening.

How much of the under 60 crowd listen to mostly 'subversive music' though?

Back

08-20-2014, 12:26 PM

How much of the under 60 crowd listen to mostly 'subversive music' though?

Arg, reading fail. No idea.

How many over 60 listen to mostly 'subversive music'?

Probably in the .0001% or less. But hey, if you are 60 and still listening to Rage Against the Machine, NWA, Insane Clown Possie, or the Sex Pistols more power to ya!

Jeril

08-20-2014, 12:34 PM

Probably in the .0001% or less. But hey, if you are 60 and still listening to Rage Against the Machine, NWA, Insane Clown Possie, or the Sex Pistols more power to ya!

I said under 60, not 60 and up....

And I think the issue with rap music is that 99% or so of it is about sex, drugs, making bad choices, and the 'thug life'. And while only a minority may produce such music, how much listen to that music?

Whirlin

08-20-2014, 12:40 PM

The blacks in this country that actually lived in some sort of racist environment are dying out like Vietnam vets.

That's a very limited view on the impacts of racism and it's effects on the influenced people. Just because it's not blatant doesn't mean it's not detrimental.

STORY TIME WITH WHIRLIN:

I worked alongside a black co-worker in my previous role. He grew up in Texas, and moved up to Boston for college, and we were working together in a major tech company as auditors. He's hardly a hoodlum like his race is portrayed.

We spoke about it one day during lunch... He described Texas as being pretty blatantly racist. There were some areas you simply shouldn't go, and hate crimes weren't uncommon, but not often reported/looked into it. When he moved to Boston, he experienced similar mannerisms, but everyone was incredibly surreptitious and covert about it. He would be trailed by employees when he would go shopping, people always seemed to be watching him, and he also described the awkwardness of being introduced to girlfriends' fathers who couldn't come out and say that they disapproved of a black boyfriend for his daughter, but would make it obvious that he disapproved for some reason.

He actually closed with not being able to comment on which is more impactful. There's was something refreshing about it being so blatant and open and being in a position to discuss rather than having it be something so secretive and subtle that picks away at you over time.

Back

08-20-2014, 12:41 PM

I said under 60, not 60 and up....

And I think the issue with rap music is that 99% or so of it is about sex, drugs, making bad choices, and the 'thug life'. And while only a minority may produce such music, how much listen to that music?

Not quite sure your figure of 99% is correct. In fact I know it isn't.

Again, and again, and again I will point out that you will find all those subjects in white music. Hell, that pretty much describes all country music if I were going to incorrectly generalize.

We've entered a conversation that is not about what races makes what music and what races listens to that music and how does that music affect that race. We're talking about human artistic expression and we might start asking what makes people express themselves they way they do.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 12:49 PM

Not quite sure your figure of 99% is correct. In fact I know it isn't.

Again, and again, and again I will point out that you will find all those subjects in white music. Hell, that pretty much describes all country music if I were going to incorrectly generalize.

We've entered a conversation that is not about what races makes what music and what races listens to that music and how does that music affect that race. We're talking about human artistic expression and we might start asking what makes people express themselves they way they do.

You might find those subjects in 'white music' but it isn't the predominate subject matter either. And I think you know it, so why even bother trying to argue the point?

Candor

08-20-2014, 12:52 PM

"The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race," said Chief Justice John Roberts (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2014/05/18/Eric-Holder-Attacks-John-Roberts-Colorblindness-Not-Best-Way-to-End-Discrimination). Affirmative action necessarily involves discrimination on the basis of race. No matter how noble your intentions, it's still wrong. You want exceptions to the rule for those times when you think an exception is needed. Just follow the Constitution.

You implement an absolute policy on this matter, and people are going to die.

Some people won't see doctors and will die due to diseases/disorders that could have been cured. Some people will react badly to law enforcement officials and a few people will die. Some people won't see lawyers, or won't talk to their lawyer, and will be convicted of crimes they didn't commit, go to prison, and a few will die. Other examples can be offered.

People dying unnecessarily is wrong. No matter how noble your intentions, causing a scenario where people die unnecessarily is wrong. The intent of the Constitution is specified in the preamble, which among other things is to preserve "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Obviously, the most important of these is life. It is NOT the intention of the Constitution that people die unnecessarily due to bad Federal policy.

Back

08-20-2014, 12:55 PM

You might find those subjects in 'white music' but it isn't the predominate subject matter either. And I think you know it, so why even bother trying to argue the point?

Might? Are you seriously saying that?

You will, and a hell of a lot of it. Sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll! Sex/love is number one across all genres. Think about operas. Thats all they were! Sex, love, partying, death, violence, and fighting the man.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 12:57 PM

You implement an absolute policy on this matter, and people are going to die.

Some people won't see doctors and will die due to diseases/disorders that could have been cured. Some people will react badly to law enforcement officials and a few people will die. Some people won't see lawyers, or won't talk to their lawyer, and will be convicted of crimes they didn't commit, go to prison, and a few will die. Other examples can be offered.

People dying unnecessarily is wrong. No matter how noble your intentions, causing a scenario where people die unnecessarily is wrong. The intent of the Constitution is specified in the preamble, which among other things is to preserve "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". Obviously, the most important of these is life. It is NOT the intention of the Constitution that people die unnecessarily due to bad Federal policy.

People die unnecessarily all the time from a great many things, what is your point exactly? These people are making a choice and a bad one, if they die they aren't much better then darwin award winners if you ask me. And this type of thing will only allow racist behavior to continue because it is racist.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 12:59 PM

Might? Are you seriously saying that?

You will, and a hell of a lot of it. Sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll! Sex/love is number one across all genres. Think about operas. Thats all they were! Sex, love, partying, death, violence, and fighting the man.

And now you go into the type of generalizing you said you'd avoid. Why am I not surprised?

Back

08-20-2014, 01:03 PM

And now you go into the type of generalizing you said you'd avoid. Why am I not surprised?

Yep, you got me there. But if you think about it all of those subjects cross all music and artistic expression. So I don't understand you trying to blame artistic expression for peoples problems. It may seem like a chicken/egg thing, or an art imitates life/life imitates art thing, but certainly with artistic expression the artist expresses before anyone observes.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 01:05 PM

Yep, you got me there. But if you think about it all of those subjects cross all music and artistic expression. So I don't understand you trying to blame artistic expression for peoples problems. It may seem like a chicken/egg thing, or an art imitates life/life imitates art thing, but certainly with artistic expression the artist expresses before anyone observes.

You don't understand how rap music promoting bad behavior is a bad thing?

Dendum

08-20-2014, 01:09 PM

You don't understand how rap music promoting bad behavior is a bad thing?

Listen man,
if you grew up with holes;
in your zapatos;
you would be celebrating the minute;
you be having dough.
all you have to say is that it is
Money Cash Hoes?

Also this is the number one country song at the moment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC2tLWMMF38

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 01:10 PM

Except that isn't what he said at all. I wouldn't go quite as far as to compare the racists to dying Vietnam vets because while the vets die and aren't replaced some racists assholes manage to reproduce and their children carry on their legacy. How many people actually live in a racist environment and not one that is just tarnished a bit by some racists asshole? His point is still a valid one, racism isn't near as rampant as some people make it sound and it is slowly dying out. We won't see the end of it in our life times but things like affirmative action aren't helping the cause either. Things like that just let some racists say to their kids and other people "hey look, they are getting special treatment" and this will cause some to resent those getting special treatment which just continues the racism.

Another thing I've noticed about the cries for racism, there is no need to yell and scream about it, it isn't that people think if they ignore the problem it will go away but chances are you aren't going to change the mind of racists today. Yelling and screaming at them is like trying to get through to that old guy in the back of the room who isn't paying attention and has his hearing aids obviously dangling from a string around his neck. The racket made also just makes the rest of the people in the room want to tell you to shut the hell up. The people who bring up race whenever something involves people of different races also hurt the cause, it is like the boy who cried wolf. They are going to be right now and again but people are tired of hearing them and will get in the habit of telling them there is no wolf and to go away.

He's claiming that systemic racism hasn't existed since the 1960s. I disagree with that.

I also think "it might empower racists!" is a poor reason to disagree with affirmative action.

Do I think our affirmative action systems are perfect? No, I don't. I'd actually be quite fine with a system that insured the most qualified candidate got a job. I don't like what we have but I think the removal of it will lead to worse.

Back

08-20-2014, 01:17 PM

You don't understand how rap music promoting bad behavior is a bad thing?

Not understanding how it's not exclusive to rap, not exclusive to the black community, not the majority of the expression of the black community, and not the reason for but the expression of, seems awfully narrow minded.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 01:22 PM

Not understanding how it's not exclusive to rap, not exclusive to the black community, not the majority of the expression of the black community, and not the reason for but the expression of, seems awfully narrow minded.

How much of the black community doesn't listen to rap and how much of rap music isn't promoting bad behavior?

Dendum

08-20-2014, 03:12 PM

How much of the black community doesn't listen to rap and how much of rap music isn't promoting bad behavior?

I think what he is trying to say is that this phenomenon of music talking about life, and life involving sex and drugs is not limited or in any way confined to rap music.
You might for some reason think that it is, but it isn't.
The top Rap song according to bill board is this vapid piece of work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-zpOMYRi0w
and while it might be devoid of any higher meaning, it can hardly be called a cause to moral deviancy, it seems a celebration of material extravagance but that is the norm these days.

That song just also happens to somehow have found its way to the top of the R&B charts but the second song on that list is about as far from morally corrupting as you can find on the radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=450p7goxZqg
which I believe was written for his incredibly hot wife.

The number two rock song right now is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh2LWWORoiM
A song that is literally all about sex and drugs.

The top three rap songs of 2013 was Thrift Shop, Can't hold us, and holy grail...I guess we are just failing to see how that collection is more corrupting than the top three country songs of the same year.

Dendum

08-20-2014, 03:14 PM

And you know what Random internet guy agrees with me so you lose
http://i57.tinypic.com/6tl5ag.jpg

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:15 PM

I'm glad that you're here to tell black people that there is no racism.

Jesus. Read and understand. I never said there's no racism. Of course there is. But it's not the exclusive property of blacks. It's also not keeping anyone from doing whatever they want with their lives. The fact that we have black CEOs and black Supreme Court Justices and black Presidents proves this. If you let watermelon and fried chicken jokes ruin your life then you have serious issues.

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 03:22 PM

Jesus. Read and understand. I never said there's no racism. Of course there is. But it's not the exclusive property of blacks. It's also not keeping anyone from doing whatever they want with their lives. The fact that we have black CEOs and black Supreme Court Justices and black Presidents proves this. If you let watermelon and fried chicken jokes ruin your life then you have serious issues.

You claim there's no systemic racism. That is, more directly, what I disagree with.

Dendum

08-20-2014, 03:22 PM

The fact that we have black CEOs .

I think there are like 5 or 6 black ceo's in the fortune 500....I am not saying the other 495 CEO's didn't deserve the job they have over other people, I am just saying it probably isn't a position that bolsters your argument.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 03:23 PM

I think what he is trying to say is that this phenomenon of music talking about life, and life involving sex and drugs is not limited or in any way confined to rap music.
You might for some reason think that it is, but it isn't.
The top Rap song according to bill board is this vapid piece of work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-zpOMYRi0w
and while it might be devoid of any higher meaning, it can hardly be called a cause to moral deviancy, it seems a celebration of material extravagance but that is the norm these days.

That song just also happens to somehow have found its way to the top of the R&B charts but the second song on that list is about as far from morally corrupting as you can find on the radio
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=450p7goxZqg
which I believe was written for his incredibly hot wife.

The number two rock song right now is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh2LWWORoiM
A song that is literally all about sex and drugs.

The top three rap songs of 2013 was Thrift Shop, Can't hold us, and holy grail...I guess we are just failing to see how that collection is more corrupting than the top three country songs of the same year.

How is that song even considered rock?

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 03:24 PM

How is that song even considered rock?

All your same handwringing about rap was directed at rock too.

Dendum

08-20-2014, 03:24 PM

How is that song even considered rock?

What the fuck are you now the judge of what is and isn't rock music? Fuck you! And your white ass horse!

...actually I have no idea, I thought it was more pop but then I looked at the other top 10 and they seemed either electronica or gibberish.

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:26 PM

You claim there's no systemic racism. That is, more directly, what I disagree with.

Prove that there is? There are federal laws against it. If you feel you're being discriminated against, you can file a lawsuit for free.

Jeril

08-20-2014, 03:27 PM

What the fuck are you now the judge of what is and isn't rock music? Fuck you! And your white ass horse!

...actually I have no idea, I thought it was more pop but then I looked at the other top 10 and they seemed either electronica or gibberish.

LOL.

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:27 PM

I think there are like 5 or 6 black ceo's in the fortune 500....I am not saying the other 495 CEO's didn't deserve the job they have over other people, I am just saying it probably isn't a position that bolsters your argument.

If there is even 1 it bolsters my argument. The fact that one can do it means any can do it.

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:29 PM

Not understanding how it's not exclusive to rap, not exclusive to the black community, not the majority of the expression of the black community, and not the reason for but the expression of, seems awfully narrow minded.

There is not a single country song that says fuck the police, fuck a bitch, sell dope, get the fast money, etc etc etc.

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:41 PM

Gonna respond to my neg repper here since they're obviously reading this thread but didn't feel confident enough to post this here...

Painting all black people with the brush of the portions 'black culture' that you don't like is pretty racist. Black people are individuals. Hope this helps!

That would be neat if that's what I did. I didn't say "black culture", I said "popular black culture". Anyone growing up in a poor neighborhood, bombarded with influences like rap music and street gangs, missing a good father figure, is going to have issues. Some overcome these issues, but most don't. This applies to any race, but ignoring the fact that it's inordinately more prevalent in black communities is just idiotic. You don't have to be so terrified of being called a racist that you patently ignore facts. Black people are indeed individuals...as are white people, latino people, asian people...we're all individuals. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Androidpk

08-20-2014, 03:42 PM

There is not a single country song that says fuck the police, fuck a bitch, sell dope, get the fast money, etc etc etc.

Eh, maybe not in such specific words but yes, there are country songs about fuck the police, fuck bitches, drugs and alcohol, and money.

Wrathbringer

08-20-2014, 03:44 PM

Eh, maybe not in such specific words but yes, there are country songs about fuck the police, fuck bitches, drugs and alcohol, and money.

And make no mistake, the country twang voice is every bit as annoying as "uh huh! Yeeuh! Ugh! Yeeuh!"

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:47 PM

Eh, maybe not in such specific words but yes, there are country songs about fuck the police, fuck bitches, drugs and alcohol, and money.

Sorry, but you're wrong. There are plenty about making love to women, there are none about treating them like property. There are plenty about drugs and alcohol, but about using them, not selling them. And most of these are about how they fuck up your life. There is not a song about fuck the police...and specific words have a specific effect.

Jarvan

08-20-2014, 03:54 PM

I think there are like 5 or 6 black ceo's in the fortune 500....I am not saying the other 495 CEO's didn't deserve the job they have over other people, I am just saying it probably isn't a position that bolsters your argument.

This is kind of a stupid argument tho.

Do all jobs have to be a direct correlation of the racial makeup of the country?

If so, do we need 217 more white rappers?

Jarvan

08-20-2014, 03:57 PM

Eh, maybe not in such specific words but yes, there are country songs about fuck the police, fuck bitches, drugs and alcohol, and money.

I listen to country, I have never heard a country song say "Fuck the Police" or "Kill the Man"

I have never even heard a song say fuck or bitch in it. Sure, they talk about fucking women. But they don't say fuck.

I have never heard a country song call a woman their "hoe".

Maybe you should start listening to country music.

Thondalar

08-20-2014, 03:58 PM

This is kind of a stupid argument tho.

Do all jobs have to be a direct correlation of the racial makeup of the country?

If so, do we need 217 more white rappers?

Only 12% of the US is black, so if we have more than that working in any particular field we need to fire them immediately.

Androidpk

08-20-2014, 03:59 PM

I listen to country, I have never heard a country song say "Fuck the Police" or "Kill the Man"

I have never even heard a song say fuck or bitch in it. Sure, they talk about fucking women. But they don't say fuck.

I have never heard a country song call a woman their "hoe".

Maybe you should start listening to country music.

As I said.. not in those specific words..

Wrathbringer

08-20-2014, 04:02 PM

I think there are like 5 or 6 black ceo's in the fortune 500....I am not saying the other 495 CEO's didn't deserve the job they have over other people, I am just saying it probably isn't a position that bolsters your argument.

And there are like 5 or 6 white players in the NBA, but it's not because the NBA is racist.

Astray

08-20-2014, 04:11 PM

I need to get out of the Political forum now.

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 04:16 PM

Sorry, but you're wrong. There are plenty about making love to women, there are none about treating them like property. There are plenty about drugs and alcohol, but about using them, not selling them. And most of these are about how they fuck up your life. There is not a song about fuck the police...and specific words have a specific effect.

Maybe you should pay more attention to outlaw country. The same holds for rock.

Warriorbird

08-20-2014, 04:17 PM

Prove that there is? There are federal laws against it. If you feel you're being discriminated against, you can file a lawsuit for free.

Here's an excellent recent example. I could go on all day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City

Your turn. Prove that it hasn't existed since the 1960's.

rolfard

08-20-2014, 04:24 PM

I'm a left-handed person who's been discriminated against by right handed scissors my whole life! Where do I file?

Jeril

08-20-2014, 04:27 PM

Maybe you should pay more attention to outlaw country. The same holds for rock.

Why not post a link to a country song? Shouldn't be that difficult from what you are saying.

I'm a left-handed person who's been discriminated against by right handed scissors my whole life! Where do I file?

I know right? I just learned how to cut right handed with scissors because I never really had a choice.

Androidpk

08-20-2014, 04:32 PM

I'm a left-handed person who's been discriminated against by right handed scissors my whole life! Where do I file?

You don't. According to Jesus left handed people are the devil.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: And he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.' ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (Matthew 25: 31-34, 41).

Mighty Nikkisaurus

08-20-2014, 04:38 PM

You don't. According to Jesus left handed people are the devil.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: And he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.' ... Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.'" (Matthew 25: 31-34, 41).

This is a shitty version of the bible you're using. The NRSV basically says "Hey you guys who weren't total dickbags to me and your fellow man get to go to Heaven!"

Androidpk

08-20-2014, 04:41 PM

This is a shitty version of the bible you're using. The NRSV basically says "Hey you guys who weren't total dickbags to me and your fellow man get to go to Heaven!"

Needs more fire and brimstone.

Dendum

08-20-2014, 05:17 PM

If there is even 1 it bolsters my argument. The fact that one can do it means any can do it.

Yea and the first female doctor who was blacked disproved both sexism and racism....
to bad it happened in the 1860's...but I guess if she can do it anyone can.
edit: I am really not taking the counter position just...your argument is stupid...

There is not a single country song that says fuck the police, fuck a bitch, sell dope, get the fast money, etc etc etc.

There are however plenty of country songs that talk about outrunning the cops, banditry, hooking up with some random Mexican chick you can't even understand, country girl booty, and hell yea there are country songs that talk about drugs in fact country music is second only to rap as far as talking about substance abuse (I guess rock and roll needs to increase the sex and drugs). But why did this become a conversation about country vs rap? Is Country the only white people music? Punk music is very anti police, and can veer towards sexist
as hell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz5NF6R3hO4
just in case you do not wish to listen to this

More dead cops
might make the hurting stop
kill cops

...white people man...

You really want to get into some good anti authoritarian country just go back to Cash and Haggard and Nelson, today's country country is just as materialistic and vapid as todays everything....it just does it in language you don't find offensive.

The big kicker here...white people account for most of the consumption of both country and rap music. So if 80& of rap listeners are white, does that mean it is having some kind of negative influence on them...or you know...maybe it is just music.
also these white girls don't like the way white girls get portrayed in country music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MOavH-Eivw

Mighty Nikkisaurus

08-20-2014, 05:26 PM

Red Ragtop by Tim McGraw not only talks about getting drunk and fleeing the cops but also talks about getting the girl knocked up and then getting her an abortion. Not exactly wholesome.

Back

08-20-2014, 06:32 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bucVwI0RfEg

Back

08-20-2014, 08:24 PM

How much of the black community doesn't listen to rap and how much of rap music isn't promoting bad behavior?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lfInFVPkQs

Warriorbird

08-21-2014, 12:39 AM

Why not post a link to a country song? Shouldn't be that difficult from what you are saying.

My first thought was already posted but there are quite a few more.

Tyler Farr - Redneck Crazy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYXHS3OWdKo

Further back:
Johnny Burnette - You're Sixteen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjy-OMIyXbg

The song that I thought of second
Hank Williams III - Crazed Country Rebel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YkMcauMmIY

Cross Canadian Ragweed - Boys from Oklahoma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJOWe02uBIw

Waylon Jennings - Good Ol Boys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qogVHlmFcx0

John Hiatt - Tennessee Plates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTiDJd62y-A

Gelston

08-21-2014, 12:58 AM

It is hilarious to me when people think that their genre of music doesn't cover the same shit as any other genre. It is all the same message, just with different lyrics and instruments.

There are folksongs going back hundreds or even thousands of years talking about breaking laws.

Thondalar

08-21-2014, 01:09 AM

Here's an excellent recent example. I could go on all day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City

Your turn. Prove that it hasn't existed since the 1960's.

Stop and frisk violates the 4th amendment on it's own and has nothing to do with race.

Warriorbird

08-21-2014, 01:12 AM

Stop and frisk violates the 4th amendment on it's own and has nothing to do with race.

Now we're on the just because you think it has nothing to do with race doesn't mean everybody else thinks so category. Still looking for your example before my next though.

Thondalar

08-21-2014, 01:12 AM

My first thought was already posted but there are quite a few more.

Tyler Farr - Redneck Crazy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYXHS3OWdKo

Further back:
Johnny Burnette - You're Sixteen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjy-OMIyXbg

The song that I thought of second
Hank Williams III - Crazed Country Rebel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YkMcauMmIY

Cross Canadian Ragweed - Boys from Oklahoma
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJOWe02uBIw

Waylon Jennings - Good Ol Boys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qogVHlmFcx0

John Hiatt - Tennessee Plates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTiDJd62y-A

I'm still waiting for you to post one that talks about selling drugs or pimping prostitutes as a viable career choice.

Thondalar

08-21-2014, 01:13 AM

Now we're on the just because you think it has nothing to do with race doesn't mean everybody else thinks so category. Still looking for your example before my next though.

You need to give a valid one first.

Thondalar

08-21-2014, 01:15 AM

Yea and the first female doctor who was blacked disproved both sexism and racism....
to bad it happened in the 1860's...but I guess if she can do it anyone can.
edit: I am really not taking the counter position just...your argument is stupid...

There are however plenty of country songs that talk about outrunning the cops, banditry, hooking up with some random Mexican chick you can't even understand, country girl booty, and hell yea there are country songs that talk about drugs in fact country music is second only to rap as far as talking about substance abuse (I guess rock and roll needs to increase the sex and drugs). But why did this become a conversation about country vs rap? Is Country the only white people music? Punk music is very anti police, and can veer towards sexist
as hell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz5NF6R3hO4
just in case you do not wish to listen to this

More dead cops
might make the hurting stop
kill cops

...white people man...

You really want to get into some good anti authoritarian country just go back to Cash and Haggard and Nelson, today's country country is just as materialistic and vapid as todays everything....it just does it in language you don't find offensive.

The big kicker here...white people account for most of the consumption of both country and rap music. So if 80& of rap listeners are white, does that mean it is having some kind of negative influence on them...or you know...maybe it is just music.
also these white girls don't like the way white girls get portrayed in country music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MOavH-Eivw

Are you purposely ignoring what I'm saying or are you really that dense?