Restaurant Forced to Stop Giving Prayer Discount

[ClydeR]

A Winston-Salem, N.C., diner will no longer dish out discounts along with dinner to praying customers.

Mary’s Gourmet Diner had been offering a 15 percent discount for customers seen offering grace before meals during the past four years.

More... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/prayer-discount-no-longer-on-the-menu-at-north-carolina-diner/2014/08/07/68424dd8-1e62-11e4-9b6c-12e30cbe86a3_story.html)

That law is unconstitutional. Business have a right to exercise their religion.

[Jarvan]

What about discounts for the Elderly? That's not fair to the non old.

Or for servicemen/women.

Or a huge number of other things.

[ClydeR]

What about discounts for the Elderly? That's not fair to the non old.

Or for servicemen/women.

Or a huge number of other things.

It's not about being fair. The Constitution doesn't protect the right of a business to discriminate on the grounds you listed. But the Constitution gives businesses the right to exercise their religious beliefs.

[Tgo01]

Freedom From Religion Foundation....YAY! Those fucking twats again.

Seriously. Do they just make up bullshit in order to bully small business owners to do things the way they want? Oh wait, according to this article...YUP!

Offering a discount to certain people is illegal? WHAT?! Where is this in the constitution?

So no more showing "favoritism" to people with coupons? Senior citizens? Military? They better be careful if they ever give a free sandwich to a homeless person, that's discrimination against people who have homes!

[Thondalar]

Well, the funny thing to me is, the restaurant isn't discriminating against people who aren't religious. The lawyer involved said it "...denies customers who do not pray and nonbelievers the right to ‘full and equal’ enjoyment of Mary’s Gourmet Diner." This is simply not true. There's no sign on the door saying "Atheists can go eat shit, cuz they ain't eating here!". Anyone can go there and enjoy whatever Mary's Gourmet Diner has to offer.

[Tgo01]

Seriously these people are a bunch of cock suckers. It's one thing for them to go after cities and big corporations; they have money to burn.

But to go after a small business owner who probably doesn't even know any better so they just in to their demands makes this group about the lowest form of shit on the planet.

I would rate them just slightly above ISIS at this point.

Slightly.

[Thondalar]

Seriously these people are a bunch of cock suckers. It's one thing for them to go after cities and big corporations; they have money to burn.

But to go after a small business owner who probably doesn't even know any better so they just in to their demands makes this group about the lowest form of shit on the planet.

I would rate them just slightly above ISIS at this point.

Slightly.

The worst part is, it's not that the small business doesn't know any better, it's that they most likely would be ruined by a phony protracted legal battle. Tort reform!

[Silvean]

I have no opinion on the politics of this or the complexity of the legal issue. This restaurant is in my hometown (i.e. near where I was born) and I've been many times. It is known for its broadly accepting atmosphere; the kind of place where same-sex couples can hold hands and you can show up with a face full of piercings for an omelette. My Facebook feed is full of comments from stridently atheist friends defending the restaurant because they like the owner personally and feel comfortable showing up there with visible tattoos and so on. In other words, as far as I know, the owner is a nice lady and she wasn't trying to grind some kind of ultra-conservative political axe with the discount.

[Gelston]

I read about this earlier, before they had to stop. They apparently also gave the discount for just taking a couple minutes before eating and sitting in silent contemplation.

[Methais]

What about discounts for the Elderly? That's not fair to the non old.

Or for servicemen/women.

Or a huge number of other things.

I hate how businesses discriminate against people who don't have enough money to buy their stuff.

THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE!!!!!!

[Thondalar]

I hate how businesses discriminate against people who don't have enough money to buy their stuff.

THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE!!!!!!

Damn right. I'm talking to you, Lamborghini. And you, Princess Yachts. I demand you change your pricing to something more affordable for everyone.

[Kembal]

Confused as to why they couldn't just name it a contemplation discount and keep it going.

FFRF is known to be an incredibly strident atheist organization.

[Anebriated]

What is this world coming to? Next thing you know bars will stop giving out the tits discount.

[Jace Solo]

This is kinda bullshit. I get pissed when places have serviced discounts for police and fire but leave our military. Not to the point I'm gonna say anything or write them a letter.

The restaurant pricing is likely equal for all to enjoy at standard restaurant pricing. She easily cod have called it something else and continue in the clandestine. I wish she had. We have a local business discount/neighborhood discount we give to people. Is that discrimination against non locals? Oh wait, who the fuck cares.

As a matter of fact, I find her legal practice discriminatory of people with religion. Hey Feds! We got an issue!

[Tgo01]

What is this world coming to? Next thing you know bars will stop giving out the tits discount.

You bite your tongue!!!

[AnticorRifling]

This is kinda bullshit. I get pissed when places have serviced discounts for police and fire but leave our military. That's kind of the problem mentality though...

When you see the discounts for XYZ just say "cool" don't say "well why isn't it for VXYZ?!"

The only thing a consumer should need to do is let their patronage or lack there of show how they feel about a place of business' policies. It goes back to the life isn't fair thing, you shouldn't expect to get someone else gets, you were never promised that. You were promised a death at the end, everything else is just bonus.

[caelric]

FFRF is known to be an incredibly strident atheist organization.

I'm an atheist myself, and my thoughts on the FFRF is 'fuck those guys'

[Silvean]

My profession involves the study of religion but I am not lawyer and I am not able to parse what I suspect is a mountain of complicated case law on this issue. My understanding is that groups opposed to the discount are claiming that it is a violation of Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 wherein "religion" is specifically mentioned.

"Whenever the Attorney General receives a complaint in writing signed by an individual to the effect that he is being deprived of or threatened with the loss of his right to the equal protection of the laws, on account of his race, color, religion, or national origin, by being denied equal utilization of any public facility..."

And "public facility" includes "...any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises... ."

So a student discount is acceptable but a religion discount or a race discount would not be. There may be ways to navigate around this with a moment of silence discount or something.

[Tgo01]

My profession involves the study of religion but I am not lawyer and I am not able to parse what I suspect is a mountain of complicated case law on this issue. My understanding is that groups opposed to the discount are claiming that it is a violation of Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 wherein "religion" is specifically mentioned.

"Whenever the Attorney General receives a complaint in writing signed by an individual to the effect that he is being deprived of or threatened with the loss of his right to the equal protection of the laws, on account of his race, color, religion, or national origin, by being denied equal utilization of any public facility..."

And "public facility" includes "...any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises... ."

So a student discount is acceptable but a religion discount or a race discount would not be. There may be ways to navigate around this with a moment of silence discount or something.

They practically admit they love bullying people to see if they can get them to cave:

"Cavell was happy with the response and said the foundation first looks to resolve legal complaints through education."

"Education." Yeah. Right. "This is my interpretation of the law so you better follow it or I'll drag this shit out in court so long you'll wish you had."

If they are going by the law you cited then they were really reaching.

"Whenever the Attorney General receives a complaint in writing signed by an individual to the effect that he is being deprived of or threatened with the loss of his right to the equal protection of the laws"

No one was being deprived of their right to the equal protection of laws.

What really gets me about this story is the discount apparently wasn't awarded to "religious" people. It's not like they were asking you which church you attended or to name off the 12 Apostles to "prove" you were a Christian.

If you want to save 15% then say grace. THEY BE CONVERTING ME BY SAVING ME MONEY!!!!!

I wonder when the Freedom From Religion Foundation is going to put 2 and 2 together and realize that Hobby Lobby discounts their products all the time so they are in a sense trying to convert people like this restaurant apparently was.

Hmm...

[Silvean]

From the quote above, I think "equal utilization" rather than "equal protection" is where the opponents of the discount are trying to make their argument. Or, at least, those two ideas seem to hang together. I'm now fully out of my depth regarding the strength of their legal argument.

Amusingly, the last time I ate at this restaurant, I decided to mess around with some of my wife's friends by demanding they bow their heads for prayer before we eat. They stared at me in gaping horror. If only I had known about the discount, I'd have actually gone through with it.

[Tgo01]

From the quote above, I think "equal utilization" rather than "equal protection" is where the opponents of the discount are trying to make their argument. Or, at least, those two ideas seem to hang together. I'm now fully out of my depth regarding the strength of their legal argument.

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I'm a lawyer either :p

But I still don't see how people were being denied equal utilization. It would be a great legal argument if the employees questioned people about their faith as they walked through the door then told them to leave if they said they were Atheists. Heck I'm pretty sure just the mere act of asking them their religion would probably run afoul of this law, even if the employees didn't treat anyone differently.

Like I said what pisses me off most about this is this wasn't even decided by a judge or a court of law; it was decided by a bunch of bullies picking on a small business owner who probably didn't even know they were being discussed nationally when they received this letter.

[Silvean]

Yeah, the owner was taken by surprise here. As I mentioned earlier, my friends who know her well are confident she wasn't trying to launch some bold new attack in the culture wars. She also offers discounts to people who work in the same area of downtown Winston-Salem. She finds offering creative targeted discounts to be a fun part of her business.

My mother-in-law is particularly sensitive to issues around religion in public. Some mixture of being raised in rural North Carolina and being a young adult in the 1960s turned her very much against any public religion. She's inwardly agitated when store clerks say "Merry Christmas" or someone says "Have a blessed day" because she thinks they are making an unwarranted assumption about her. I'm certain she is quietly twitching when we go to southern events that begin with group hand holding and spontaneous prayer. "Lord, we just want to thank you Jesus for... and praise your name... and we just ask that you... ."

[Johnny Five]

http://www.jenniferbraceras.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/photo.jpg

[Parkbandit]

That's kind of the problem mentality though...

When you see the discounts for XYZ just say "cool" don't say "well why isn't it for VXYZ?!"

The only thing a consumer should need to do is let their patronage or lack there of show how they feel about a place of business' policies. It goes back to the life isn't fair thing, you shouldn't expect to get someone else gets, you were never promised that. You were promised a death at the end, everything else is just bonus.

Exactly this.

The entire thought process of "IT'S NOT FAIR" drives me crazy. You want to get a discount at this restaurant? BECOME A COP!

[Latrinsorm]

That's kind of the problem mentality though...

When you see the discounts for XYZ just say "cool" don't say "well why isn't it for VXYZ?!"

The only thing a consumer should need to do is let their patronage or lack there of show how they feel about a place of business' policies. It goes back to the life isn't fair thing, you shouldn't expect to get someone else gets, you were never promised that. You were promised a death at the end, everything else is just bonus.Strictly speaking we as Americans ARE promised freedom from discrimination on the basis of religion, either by the government or by certain businesses. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

You and others in this thread might not like this law, but the only thing a citizen should need to do is let their voting or lack there of show how they feel about a politician's policies. It goes back to the life isn't fair thing, you were never promised your representative would always enact the laws you want. :)
Yeah, the owner was taken by surprise here. As I mentioned earlier, my friends who know her well are confident she wasn't trying to launch some bold new attack in the culture wars. She also offers discounts to people who work in the same area of downtown Winston-Salem. She finds offering creative targeted discounts to be a fun part of her business.The law does not require intent, though, and it would be utterly impotent if it did. Protecting some rights will inevitably infringe on others, the question we as a society have to ask is whether the freedom of religion is more important than the freedom of offering a certain discount.

[Valthissa]

The law does not require intent, though, and it would be utterly impotent if it did.

When you say 'the law' are you referring to a specific law that the owner might be prosecuted under? Certainly criminal intent is an element of some crimes.

Maybe some resident PC lawyer can explain Mens rea. My recollection is that it only applies to some criminal prosecutions but I have no idea which ones or why.

[zzentar]

the question we as a society have to ask is whether the freedom of religion is more important than the freedom of offering a certain discount.

You meant freedom FROM religion? Because it was clearly stated you could be praying to God, Satan, or your ham sandwich they just wanted people to take a moment before their meal. I can't see where anyone would have an issue with this.

[Latrinsorm]

When you say 'the law' are you referring to a specific law that the owner might be prosecuted under? Certainly criminal intent is an element of some crimes.I don't know what specific charge or prosecution can follow from violating the Civil Rights Act, but that's the one. It would be useless if the accused could just say "I didn't MEAN to discriminate, that's just a coincidence, and correlation is not causation.", and it also simply isn't relevant if the accused intentionally violates another's civil rights, although that is obviously morally worse than unintentionally doing so. The Civil Rights Act's purpose is to safeguard civil rights, which seems like a silly thing to say but consider an analogy: the fire department's job is not to stop arson, but to stop fires. Everyone agrees that arson is worse, but in the moment the critical thing is to stop the fire/abuse.
You meant freedom FROM religion? Because it was clearly stated you could be praying to God, Satan, or your ham sandwich they just wanted people to take a moment before their meal. I can't see where anyone would have an issue with this.The freedom of religion does not mean you have your pick of any object of worship, it means you have your pick of worshipping or not. I am myself a religious person, but I also take the laws of our country seriously.

[Methais]

You meant freedom FROM religion? Because it was clearly stated you could be praying to God, Satan, or your ham sandwich they just wanted people to take a moment before their meal. I can't see where anyone would have an issue with this.

If the restaurant owners were smart, they'd be like, "We didn't say PRAYING, we said PREYING.You're about to eat your food, so it's not like you have to be religious to prey on it!"

[ClydeR]

It is known for its broadly accepting atmosphere; the kind of place where same-sex couples can hold hands and you can show up with a face full of piercings for an omelette.

No wonder she was trying to attract more Christians! You should start dining in a place with more respectable clientele.

[Silvean]

Had a breakfast burrito during a drag show at Mary's this morning.

[Tgo01]

Had a breakfast burrito during a drag show at Mary's this morning.

Did you get a discount?

[zzentar]

did you perform?

[Silvean]

did you perform?

No room for amateurs at that show.