Couple co signed daughter's student loans, shocked when they have to pay

[Tgo01]

Story. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/06/california-couple-struggling-after-being-forced-to-pay-deceased-daughters/?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl4|sec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D511541)


A California couple is speaking out after they say their finances have been devastated over their daughter’s student loan debt, which they are being forced to repay after the woman died unexpectedly four years ago.

Steve and Darnelle Mason’s 27-year-old daughter Lisa died suddenly from a liver disease, leaving behind three children. Darnelle Mason, who is now raising her grandchildren along with her husband, told Fox Business the “excruciating” pain of losing her daughter has only been compounded by the crushing debt.

“She was doing what she really loved to do,” Mason said. “So it is really just a crushing burden.”

Lisa Mason had taken out close to $100,000 in student loans in order to pay for nursing school, and was making payments on the debt when she died. Steve Mason said he and his wife, who had co-signed the loans, were contacted immediately after his daughter’s death and were told they must start making payments.

“We knew if she didn’t pay her debt we would be responsible by co-signing, but we didn’t know that if she died the debt would fall to us,” he said.

Mason said his daughter’s debt has ballooned to $200,000 and the payments exceed $2,000 a month.

Mason, who is a minister, said some of the lenders have given them breaks, such as lowering their interest rate, and one loan was forgiven. However, he said the debt has still been “financially devastating” and wrecked their once-solid credit.

Mason said he believes private student loans should be regulated the same as federal student loans, and should be able to be forgiven if the borrower dies. He also said he believes student loans should be able to be discharged in bankruptcy, like other types of debt.

“There needs to be some relief,” he said.

As I was reading this story I kept thinking "Bullshit!" that they are being forced to repay their daughter's loans because that's just not the case...unless they cosigned the loans. Then I got to the part where they admitted they co signed the loans...well what did they think was going to happen?

I feel bad for them that their daughter died but seriously, they willingly cosigned the loans for their daughter, this is usually what happens when you cosign a loan for someone. I'm also finding it hard to believe it cost 200k to get a nursing degree. Heck that's pushing doctor student loan debt levels.

I also like how they think student loans should be discharged in bankruptcy. Can you imagine that racket? Go to school, amass huge student loan, graduate, don't get a job for a year, file bankruptcy, you are now debt free with a free college education.

Liberals! I tells ya!

[Warriorbird]

Because companies are more deserving to discharge their debts in bankruptcy than people are.

[Tgo01]

Because companies are more deserving to discharge their debts in bankruptcy than people are.

Do you have a comparable analogy to share or is this one of your rolodex arguments you hope works in this situation? :p

[Warriorbird]

Do you have a comparable analogy to share or is this one of your rolodex arguments you hope works in this situation? :p

If a company loses billions of other people's money we can let them go into bankruptcy but how dare we let people discharge their debt that way. Companies are better and more deserving people than people.

[Whirlin]

If a company loses billions of other people's money we can let them go into bankruptcy but how dare we let people discharge their debt that way. Companies are better and more deserving people than people.

I'm concerned that you don't understand the underlying process of a bankruptcy from a corporate perspective.

[crb]

A. Student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy because you cannot repossess, auction off, or otherwise recover an education.

B. Apparently they didn't know what "co-signing" means.

C. Who takes out $100k for nursing school? My brother is an RN, is like 23, he has no debt. Even if you do a full 4 year RN program at a major university (the absolutely most expensive way to get a nursing degree - something no one should do if they need to get so much debt to do it), it shouldn't be that much. That's premium private school dollars. Then how does it balloon to 200k? Someone isn't making payments, ever, apparently.

D. Financial literacy should be a prerequisite for graduating from high school. Rather than just encouraging students to get loans, there needs to be a voice, somewhere, encouraging them not to, explaining how you can go to a community college on the cheap for 2 years then transfer.

E. What kind of sketchy student loan requires a co-signer anyways?

[Tgo01]

If a company loses billions of other people's money we can let them go into bankruptcy but how dare we let people discharge their debt that way. Companies are better and more deserving people than people.

Granted I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer or anything but I'm pretty sure it's not as easy as a company just showing up to court and saying "LOL! We don't want to pay these debts, make them go away for us."

If a company is truly going into bankruptcy; as in they don't plan to be in business much longer, then the courts decide who and how much is going to get paid back after the company's assets are all liquidated.

If the company is simply seeking protection from their creditors then that just puts the creditors at bay for a while to give the company some time to try and get back on track towards running the business and paying back their debts.

Again, you don't really seem to have a comparable analogy. Right now the entire slate (except student loans...although they can be too in rare circumstances) can be wiped clean for an individual; even mortgages...AND you can still live in the house.

Also to my knowledge the courts don't rifle through an individual's private property and deciding to sell it to pay back their creditors...although they probably would seize bank accounts if the person had like 200k in the account...even then I'm not 100% sure on.

I'm really not seeing how companies are having this huge bankruptcy advantage over individuals except that companies could possibly discharge a lot more debt...but that's only because they are dealing with a higher debt to begin with.

[Warriorbird]

I'm concerned that you don't understand the underlying process of a bankruptcy from a corporate perspective.

What don't I understand? There are sometimes reduced or written off debts that destroy people's lives and entire regional economies. I understand that we want companies to be able to come out of troubles.

[Tgo01]

E. What kind of sketchy student loan requires a co-signer anyways?

When you're talking about 100k in private student loan debt I'm sure a lot of banks are starting to get leery, especially if she had any federal student loans also which she probably did based on the parent's mentioning them in the story.

[Whirlin]

A. Student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy because you cannot repossess, auction off, or otherwise recover an education.

B. Apparently they didn't know what "co-signing" means.

C. Who takes out $100k for nursing school? My brother is an RN, is like 23, he has no debt. Even if you do a full 4 year RN program at a major university (the absolutely most expensive way to get a nursing degree - something no one should do if they need to get so much debt to do it), it shouldn't be that much. That's premium private school dollars. Then how does it balloon to 200k? Someone isn't making payments, ever, apparently.

D. Financial literacy should be a prerequisite for graduating from high school. Rather than just encouraging students to get loans, there needs to be a voice, somewhere, encouraging them not to, explaining how you can go to a community college on the cheap for 2 years then transfer.

E. What kind of sketchy student loan requires a co-signer anyways?

I agree with all of your points.

If any actionable items could come out of this, I'd actually like to see student loans not be able to be co-signed... However, that would likely result in higher interest rates for students, which I don't want... so.... more student loan reform? :/

[Jarvan]

I am sure WB thinks that all schooling should be free, and people shouldn't ever have to pay for it. So it makes sense that his argument is "Derrr... Companies BAD!"

As for a 100k loan to pay for Nursing school... it's possible if they went to a high end school and went for their 4 year degree. Otherwise.. seems a bit steep to me.

These parents are fucktards, plain and simple.

[Buckwheet]

Just balance transfer as much of the amount to credit cards and stop paying those cards to reduce the overall debt load and then file bankruptcy!

[Tgo01]

As for a 100k loan to pay for Nursing school... it's possible if they went to a high end school and went for their 4 year degree. Otherwise.. seems a bit steep to me.

As I said before what really gets me is this is just private student loan debt; how much federal student loan debt did she have?

I could see 100k if she was going for her masters, and I don't think they said in the article what she was going for. What I can't understand is how the debt supposedly doubled to 200k in 4 years. Even if you miss all of the payments I think that's impossible, how would anyone ever pay back their student loans if it doubled in 4 years?


Just balance transfer as much of the amount to credit cards and stop paying those cards to reduce the overall debt load and then file bankruptcy!

Buckwheet knows how to play the system!

[Warriorbird]

Granted I'm not a bankruptcy lawyer or anything but I'm pretty sure it's not as easy as a company just showing up to court and saying "LOL! We don't want to pay these debts, make them go away for us."

If a company is truly going into bankruptcy; as in they don't plan to be in business much longer, then the courts decide who and how much is going to get paid back after the company's assets are all liquidated.

If the company is simply seeking protection from their creditors then that just puts the creditors at bay for a while to give the company some time to try and get back on track towards running the business and paying back their debts.

Again, you don't really seem to have a comparable analogy. Right now the entire slate (except student loans...although they can be too in rare circumstances) can be wiped clean for an individual; even mortgages...AND you can still live in the house.

Also to my knowledge the courts don't rifle through an individual's private property and deciding to sell it to pay back their creditors...although they probably would seize bank accounts if the person had like 200k in the account...even then I'm not 100% sure on.

I'm really not seeing how companies are having this huge bankruptcy advantage over individuals except that companies could possibly discharge a lot more debt...but that's only because they are dealing with a higher debt to begin with.

They get to discharge everything. Worldcom also got to fuck their stockholders and give 1/3 to bondholders to the tune of billions.

[Dendum]

A. Student loan debt cannot be discharged in bankruptcy because you cannot repossess, auction off, or otherwise recover an education.

B. Apparently they didn't know what "co-signing" means.

C. Who takes out $100k for nursing school? My brother is an RN, is like 23, he has no debt. Even if you do a full 4 year RN program at a major university (the absolutely most expensive way to get a nursing degree - something no one should do if they need to get so much debt to do it), it shouldn't be that much. That's premium private school dollars. Then how does it balloon to 200k? Someone isn't making payments, ever, apparently.

D. Financial literacy should be a prerequisite for graduating from high school. Rather than just encouraging students to get loans, there needs to be a voice, somewhere, encouraging them not to, explaining how you can go to a community college on the cheap for 2 years then transfer.

E. What kind of sketchy student loan requires a co-signer anyways?

I had to get a co-sign when I did my first year of college prior to joining the military, now I admit it wasn't 200k, and wouldn't have been if I had taken 8 years to finish the degree, but still it is sometimes needed. Not all states are created equal when it comes to assistance for college students, some states have amazing programs for public universities some are ho-hum and they system is set up so that you can't take advantage of another state's option because you fall in the out of state tuition area which is normally higher than any other option.

I believe more than half of US college students take loans, this isn't some strange one off. That being said....you co-sign any loan and you assume responsibility for payment regardless. If they had signed a car loan and their child had crashed the car without insurance they would still be in debt for the price of the car. Student loans are unique in that the government takes extra steps to ensure they are paid, much like IRS debts or child support cases they will start yanking your taxe returns, if you get those, or start to look at property you own.

This whole story does seem odd, most federal student loan programs would not double in price after only a few years unpaid, indeed they have a ton of waiver options to extend time between payments, and the article speaks of multiple creditors....which also seems strange to me.

[Whirlin]

What don't I understand? There are sometimes reduced or written off debts that destroy people's lives and entire regional economies. I understand that we want companies to be able to come out of troubles.

What people? Bond owners? Accounts Payable recipients? Shareholders? Employees?
Because you're spanning across many of these different groups with your blanket statements of "People suffer", which conveys that you don't understand that these groups are inherently unequal and that there is an established heirarchy of payments that must be made when declaring bankruptcy.

[Warriorbird]

I am sure WB thinks that all schooling should be free, and people shouldn't ever have to pay for it. So it makes sense that his argument is "Derrr... Companies BAD!"

As for a 100k loan to pay for Nursing school... it's possible if they went to a high end school and went for their 4 year degree. Otherwise.. seems a bit steep to me.

These parents are fucktards, plain and simple.

With strenuous testing I think it should be. It works quite well for many countries and several elite colleges. Your simplistic ass conservative comeback mistates my position though. I think people should be able to fully discharge their debts the same way companies are if we think this is an important function for society.

[Whirlin]

Just balance transfer as much of the amount to credit cards and stop paying those cards to reduce the overall debt load and then file bankruptcy!

This was a popular loophole in the 80s and 90s, but has been widely closed in the 2000s. It was used most often for things like mortgages.

[Buckwheet]

They should just contact some financial advisers and tank their credit as hard as possible to achieve the maximum benefit and deal with it for 7-10 years.

[Warriorbird]

What people? Bond owners? Accounts Payable recipients? Shareholders? Employees?
Because you're spanning across many of these different groups with your blanket statements of "People suffer", which conveys that you don't understand that these groups are inherently unequal and that there is an established heirarchy of payments that must be made when declaring bankruptcy.

Bondholders got 33%. Stockholders got nothing. People lost their jobs and a whole state got fucked.

[Buckwheet]

This was a popular loophole in the 80s and 90s, but has been widely closed in the 2000s. It was used most often for things like mortgages.

How has it been closed? I can write checks to people as a "balance transfer". How would they know where the money went? I can even have money deposited into my bank account right from the CCs to pay bills.

[Jarvan]

As I said before what really gets me is this is just private student loan debt; how much federal student loan debt did she have?

I could see 100k if she was going for her masters, and I don't think they said in the article what she was going for. What I can't understand is how the debt supposedly doubled to 200k in 4 years. Even if you miss all of the payments I think that's impossible, how would anyone ever pay back their student loans if it doubled in 4 years?



Buckwheet knows how to play the system!

Well, if she Borrowed 100k, her debt wasn't 100k. So yeah, I could see owning 200k in 4 years with no payments.

I do love how they felt the need to report what the Minister "Believes".

Hell, I "Believe" I should be given a free 10 Bedroom house and 2 Tesla cars.......


....


So where are they?

[Gelston]

I am sure WB thinks that all schooling should be free, and people shouldn't ever have to pay for it. So it makes sense that his argument is "Derrr... Companies BAD!"

As for a 100k loan to pay for Nursing school... it's possible if they went to a high end school and went for their 4 year degree. Otherwise.. seems a bit steep to me.

These parents are fucktards, plain and simple.

I think all schooling should be free. If you do good in school, you get to go to the next level education... All competitive.

[Jarvan]

They get to discharge everything. Worldcom also got to fuck their stockholders and give 1/3 to bondholders to the tune of billions.

Whereas GM got to FUCK the Bondholders and Stockholders and give the Company to the Union. (Against all previous laws regarding bankruptcy)

This is fun!

[Warriorbird]

Whereas GM got to FUCK the Bondholders and Stockholders and give the Company to the Union. (Against all previous laws regarding bankruptcy)

This is fun!

And this has nothing to do with the discussion. You're now coming down on the side of bankruptcy bad you're so Obama obsessed.

[zzentar]

I am late to this convo but don't most companies offer a death clause insurance in case you die that pays off the loan? I know they do that in car loans. Someone else may have said this already.

~Zz

[Jarvan]

With strenuous testing I think it should be. It works quite well for many countries and several elite colleges. Your simplistic ass conservative comeback mistates my position though. I think people should be able to fully discharge their debts the same way companies are if we think this is an important function for society.

You should NEVER be able to discharge college education debts.

Because fucking assholes (Likely like you) will simple declare bankruptcy after getting an education, because you feel it should be "free" anyway.

Sometimes, I wish we could just give people like you their own parallel world and sit back and watch how fucked up it would be there. Talk about entertainment!

[Warriorbird]

I am late to this convo but don't most companies offer a death clause insurance in case you die that pays off the loan? I know they do that in car loans. Someone else may have said this already.

~Zz

This is a good point. Only some do for this, because even if it makes sense the people can cause them bad PR.

[Jarvan]

And this has nothing to do with the discussion. You're now coming down on the side of bankruptcy bad you're so Obama obsessed.

Wait.. it doesn't? Then why did you bring it up?


Because companies are more deserving to discharge their debts in bankruptcy than people are.


They get to discharge everything. Worldcom also got to fuck their stockholders and give 1/3 to bondholders to the tune of billions.

[Tgo01]

They get to discharge everything. Worldcom also got to fuck their stockholders and give 1/3 to bondholders to the tune of billions.

You say they got to discharge "everything" then go on to say their bondholders received 1/3 of what they were owed. Make up your mind! :O

As I said, their assets were doled out to the people they owed money to. Unless an individual has a lot of extra money laying around then individuals can emerge 100% debt free after bankruptcy.

[Warriorbird]

You should NEVER be able to discharge college education debts.

Because fucking assholes (Likely like you) will simple declare bankruptcy after getting an education, because you feel it should be "free" anyway.

Sometimes, I wish we could just give people like you their own parallel world and sit back and watch how fucked up it would be there. Talk about entertainment!

I've paid my college debt in full. I'm sure your idealized unhuman liberal hasn't though.

You make my point well though. You want companies to be able to discharge their debts but not people and you hate anybody who has trouble paying a loan but not any company.

[Whirlin]

Bondholders got 33%. Stockholders got nothing. People lost their jobs and a whole state got fucked.

Why the fuck would Shareholders get anything if their company goes under?

Do you understand what shareholders are to a publicly traded company?

[Tgo01]

As far as people saying student loans should be forgiven in bankruptcies...you do realize part of the reason student loans are (relatively) easy to get and have low interest rates is because it's very hard to get them forgiven, right?

You're basically saying we should screw over hard working, honest people who want to go to school in favor of people who want to take the easy way out and just have their loans forgiven.

[Warriorbird]

You say they got to discharge "everything" then go on to say their bondholders received 1/3 of what they were owed. Make up your mind! :O

As I said, their assets were doled out to the people they owed money to. Unless an individual has a lot of extra money laying around then individuals can emerge 100% debt free after bankruptcy.

Except student loans. This distinguishes people from businesses.


As far as people saying student loans should be forgiven in bankruptcies...you do realize part of the reason student loans are (relatively) easy to get and have low interest rates is because it's very hard to get them forgiven, right?

You're basically saying we should screw over hard working, honest people who want to go to school in favor of people who want to take the easy way out and just have their loans forgiven.

But we can screw over hard working honest people who worked or invested in a company. NBD!

[Jarvan]

I've paid my college debt in full. I'm sure your idealized unhuman liberal hasn't though.

You make my point well though. You want companies to be able to discharge their debts but not people and you hate anybody who has trouble paying a loan but not any company.

Really... that's interesting.

Where did I say that?

Oh wait...

I didn't take "I am a fucking idiot Liberal Moron" reading interpretation class in college like you must have.

[Tgo01]

Why the fuck would Shareholders get anything if their company goes under?

Hey! If I invest 100 dollars per stock in a company and it EVER goes down then I expect the government to refund me any lost money.

[Gelston]

As far as people saying student loans should be forgiven in bankruptcies...you do realize part of the reason student loans are (relatively) easy to get and have low interest rates is because it's very hard to get them forgiven, right?

You're basically saying we should screw over hard working, honest people who want to go to school in favor of people who want to take the easy way out and just have their loans forgiven.

I think we should all go to college in Cambridge or Oxford, or other places in Britain where it is nice and cheap at $14,000 a year.

[Warriorbird]

Why the fuck would Shareholders get anything if their company goes under?

Do you understand what shareholders are to a publicly traded company?

But the company isn't necessarily actually going to "go under" under our bankruptcy rules and many of their shares may have still held value. It's a way of shaking people off and avoiding giving them anything.

[Whirlin]

How has it been closed? I can write checks to people as a "balance transfer". How would they know where the money went? I can even have money deposited into my bank account right from the CCs to pay bills.

I'm unsure your point... both examples you just highlighted are assets being distributed direct from your checking account.

Valid point about cash advances though. Although they typically yield higher rates and offer much potential cash advances compared to total credit line.

I was referring to putting the balances direct onto the CC, and subsequently paying the CC, which would result in accumulation of rewards / incentives, blahblahblah.

[Jarvan]

But the company isn't necessarily actually going to "go under" under our bankruptcy rules and many of their shares may have still held value. It's a way of shaking people off and avoiding giving them anything.

Kinda like personal debt, aye?

[Warriorbird]

Really... that's interesting.

Where did I say that?

Oh wait...

I didn't take "I am a fucking idiot Liberal Moron" reading interpretation class in college like you must have.

You support our current corporate bankruptcy policies and support not allowing student loan debt to be discharged.

You make a lot of bullshit claims about me and other people which certainly are true in your alternate reality.

[Warriorbird]

Kinda like personal debt, aye?

My gosh and it's like we allow one but not the other! Who knew?

[Tgo01]

Except student loans. This distinguishes people from businesses.

...and businesses have their assets taken away from them and given to their creditors...which distinguishes businesses from people...


But we can screw over hard working honest people who worked or invested in a company. NBD!

Isn't that sort of the risk you take when you invest in a company? Like if it were possible to invest in people (actually I think people have started doing this) do you think you would get your money back if that person failed?


I think we should all go to college in Cambridge or Oxford, or other places in Britain where it is nice and cheap at $14,000 a year.

I don't know about "cheap"...

There are a lot of nice schools people can go to in the US that aren't even 14k a year.

[Gelston]

...and businesses have their assets taken away from them and given to their creditors...which distinguishes businesses from people...



Isn't that sort of the risk you take when you invest in a company? Like if it were possible to invest in people (actually I think people have started doing this) do you think you would get your money back if that person failed?



I don't know about "cheap"...

There are a lot of nice schools people can go to in the US that aren't even 14k a year.

14k a year for a school that ranks in the top ten in the world? That is cheap. Especially compared the comparable schools in the US, like MIT and Harvard.

[Candor]

Although I feel for this family, the simple truth is that they co-signed the loans.

I don't see what else needs to be said here.

[Warriorbird]

...and businesses have their assets taken away from them and given to their creditors...which distinguishes businesses from people...

Assets are taken away from people and sold too. Quite frequently.


Isn't that sort of the risk you take when you invest in a company? Like if it were possible to invest in people (actually I think people have started doing this) do you think you would get your money back if that person failed?


Why do we let corporations dodge stock and bond debt but not people dodge student loan debt? Isn't a student loan an investment in someone for interest? The function of bankruptcy is to help individuals and corporations be more productive in society.

[Tgo01]

But the company isn't necessarily actually going to "go under" under our bankruptcy rules and many of their shares may have still held value. It's a way of shaking people off and avoiding giving them anything.

The company was going to shit. They were in bankruptcy court. Their stock was worthless. I'm really baffled at your reasoning on this :/

[Jarvan]

You support our current corporate bankruptcy policies and support not allowing student loan debt to be discharged.

You make a lot of bullshit claims about me and other people which certainly are true in your alternate reality.

Well.. it's simple. Student loan debt has NEVER been allowed to be wiped really. It shouldn't be. Do you REALLY think most of the people graduating now would bother paying them back if they COULD be wiped out? It's ok, we know the answer is no. It's fine, I understand you just want FREE education for everyone, and that is why you want student loans to be able to be wiped out with a stroke of a pen.

As for supporting our current corporate bankruptcy policies.. where did I say that? Because I pointed out that Obama threw out 200 years of law because he wanted to pay back the unions instead of the people that were owed the money first? But.. I guess that's ok, because it was Obama, right? And I am just hating on Obama personally, instead of the fact that as far as I am aware, it's been the first time it has ever happened. If Bush did it, I would still be pissed, just so you know. It was stupid. Of course you prob thought it was GREAT as it gave the unions more power in the company. And unions are just hard working people.. I mean corporations.. err.. people.

[Warriorbird]

14k a year for a school that ranks in the top ten in the world? That is cheap. Especially compared the comparable schools in the US, like MIT and Harvard.

Except the evil ones that are going free.

[Wrathbringer]

The company was going to shit. They were in bankruptcy court. Their stock was worthless. I'm really baffled at your reasoning on this :/

Friendly Reminder: You're attempting to reason with warriorbird.

[Tgo01]

Assets are taken away from people and sold too. Quite frequently.

Unless you're talking about a car or a millionaire with a lot of assets/income do you have any examples of someone walking into bankruptcy court and having their possession taken away from them to pay their debts?


Why do we let corporations dodge stock and bond debt but not people dodge student loan debt? Isn't a student loan an investment in someone for interest? The function of bankruptcy is to help individuals and corporations be more productive in society.

Because we want students to be able to take out loans and have a relatively cheap interest rate. You're basically asking to screw over all students because some don't want to pay their bills.

[Tgo01]

Friendly Reminder: You're attempting to reason with warriorbird.

Touche :(

[Jarvan]

Unless you're talking about a car or a millionaire with a lot of assets/income do you have any examples of someone walking into bankruptcy court and having their possession taken away from them to pay their debts?



Because we want students to be able to take out loans and have a relatively cheap interest rate. You're basically asking to screw over all students because some don't want to pay their bills.

My friend racked up 175k in credit card debt and declared bankruptcy, he didn't lose his house or his car. The debt just disappeared.

[Buckwheet]

I'm unsure your point... both examples you just highlighted are assets being distributed direct from your checking account.

Valid point about cash advances though. Although they typically yield higher rates and offer much potential cash advances compared to total credit line.

I was referring to putting the balances direct onto the CC, and subsequently paying the CC, which would result in accumulation of rewards / incentives, blahblahblah.

Well yeah. You just need to put the unbankruptable asset on something people consider..bankruptable. Like...go live in an apartment and take out a home line of credit to the max to pay your loan and then just default on your house and file bankruptcy.

The checks come right from the CC company and you can even write them out to "cash" and they don't count as a "cash advance". They are balance transfer checks. Anyways...they can do all sorts of things such as just go banking institution free using something like Bluebird and Walmarts/CVS/Paypal to live a life free of banks to avoid ever having it collected on.

[Tgo01]

My friend racked up 175k in credit card debt and declared bankruptcy, he didn't lose his house or his car. The debt just disappeared.

Yeah if the car is paid for they won't take it away. If there is a loan on the car I think you can ask the courts to include that in the bankruptcy but then the car goes back to the bank. In the case of a house you can discharge what you owe on the house and continue living there.

Ain't life grand when you don't pay your bills? :D

[Whirlin]

Why do we let corporations dodge stock and bond debt but not people dodge student loan debt? Isn't a student loan an investment in someone for interest? The function of bankruptcy is to help individuals and corporations be more productive in society.

Again, this highlights that you have no clue what happens in a bankruptcy. Bond holders are among first tier of debtors to be paid off, and there is a long list of debtors between bond holders and shareholders.

[Buckwheet]

Yeah if the car is paid for they won't take it away. If there is a loan on the car I think you can ask the courts to include that in the bankruptcy but then the car goes back to the bank. In the case of a house you can discharge what you owe on the house and continue living there.

Ain't life grand when you don't pay your bills? :D

Exactly my point even if the neg reppers don't agree. Pay for everything that is a daily expense on your CCs paying the minimums until you max out all your credit which can be like this other guy, 175k. Funnel all the money from daily living expenses back into the loans and the loans go away. Drive some cars you have paid off and pay the bankruptcy fee. 7 years from now nobody is going to care.

[Whirlin]

My friend racked up 175k in credit card debt and declared bankruptcy, he didn't lose his house or his car. The debt just disappeared.

Also a bit state dependent on the homestead laws and whether or not they can go for your house when you declare bankruptcy.

I think it was trendy for movie stars to buy million dollar homes in Florida, and then declare bankruptcy per their homestead laws.

[Latrinsorm]

I could see 100k if she was going for her masters, and I don't think they said in the article what she was going for. What I can't understand is how the debt supposedly doubled to 200k in 4 years. Even if you miss all of the payments I think that's impossible, how would anyone ever pay back their student loans if it doubled in 4 years?100*x^4 = 200
x^4 = 2
x = 2^(1/4)
x = 1.189
19% interest.

My student loan didn't have that, and I don't know of any student loan that does, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. You can't rule out unknown unknowns, or something more plausible like late fees. Again, I personally never made a late payment on my student loan so I have no idea how big the late fee would be. That's a known unknown.
As far as people saying student loans should be forgiven in bankruptcies...you do realize part of the reason student loans are (relatively) easy to get and have low interest rates is because it's very hard to get them forgiven, right?

You're basically saying we should screw over hard working, honest people who want to go to school in favor of people who want to take the easy way out and just have their loans forgiven.Are you suggesting that the young woman who died took "the easy way out", Terrence?
You support our current corporate bankruptcy policies and support not allowing student loan debt to be discharged.

You make a lot of bullshit claims about me and other people which certainly are true in your alternate reality.Now you know how I feel about your position on surveillance, bro. Well... I told you explicitly how I felt about that, but now you know first hand.
My friend racked up 175k in credit card debt and declared bankruptcy, he didn't lose his house or his car. The debt just disappeared.First your sisters the welfare queens, now this? You're judged by the company you keep, socialist.

;) <3

[Buckwheet]

Also a bit state dependent on the homestead laws and whether or not they can go for your house when you declare bankruptcy.

I think it was trendy for movie stars to buy million dollar homes in Florida, and then declare bankruptcy per their homestead laws.

Sell the house right now for what you owe private party to a family member using a LLC as an investment company avoiding most fees and they rent it back to you. Problem solved?

[Whirlin]

Sell the house right now for what you owe private party to a family member using a LLC as an investment company avoiding most fees and they rent it back to you. Problem solved?

Should we start a spinoff thread about how to commit ridiculous acts of fraud like a Jarvan family member / close friend?

[Buckwheet]

Should we start a spinoff thread about how to commit ridiculous acts of fraud like a Jarvan family member / close friend?

We should! I have some amazing ones to share that I learned from my cousin.

Edit: I posted something similar about making Gemstone your "job" and living off of the government. We might as well just open it up to all forms of "close but not exactly fraud" posts. The first post should be how to exactly have no personal property because all your houses, boats, cars are owned by a corporation that you control.

[Warriorbird]

Again, this highlights that you have no clue what happens in a bankruptcy. Bond holders are among first tier of debtors to be paid off, and there is a long list of debtors between bond holders and shareholders.

I've never been directly involved in a corporate bankruptcy. I most certainly don't know the procedures. I've seen the impact of MCI/Worldcom going down though.

[Buckwheet]

Should we start a spinoff thread about how to commit ridiculous acts of fraud like a Jarvan family member / close friend?

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?91671-Give-up-personhood-become-a-corporation

[Silvean]

At one point I decided it would be good for my career to understand everything that goes on in a university. Accordingly, I took a job as a part-time financial aid officer for a couple of years. Students were able to take out up to $50,000 per year in loans. This would be tuition plus $20,000 for other costs with absolutely no gift aid (i.e. scholarships). Federal Stafford loans have yearly limits, right now I believe the limit is somewhere around $3,500 for a freshman. So, a student would need to make up the $46,500 difference with private loans. Without a credit history, those would be private loans co-signed by the parents.

There are obviously much better financial options in such a case. A student, for instance, could attend a community college for 2 years and then transfer to a public university offering in-state tuition for a total cost below what one year at the private institution would cost. There are a lot of other issues at play here that I will not go into, but I think this explains some of how the parents in the article found themselves in that situation.

[Tgo01]

Are you suggesting that the young woman who died took "the easy way out", Terrence?

Are you suggesting I'm suggesting that?

[Gelston]

Are you suggesting I'm suggesting that?

Are you suggesting that he is suggesting that you are suggesting that?

[Tgo01]

Are you suggesting that he is suggesting that you are suggesting that?

Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that he is suggesting that I am suggesting that?

[Gelston]

Are you suggesting that I'm suggesting that he is suggesting that I am suggesting that?

Are you suggesting that I am suggesting that you are suggesting that he is suggesting that you are suggesting that?

[Ker_Thwap]

If this is the same story I saw a few weeks ago, the pastor makes a good salary , and she overdosed (I think), and they co-signed. The economy can't just grind to a halt every time someone dies.

It sucks to co-sign a loan for a child in the first place, because you're basically gambling that your child won't be an idiot loser and won't stick you with the debt. In this case, it's painful because their child was an idiot loser, died, and stuck them with the debt. Triple whammy! It won't really matter anyway because his public begging has already paid off.

[Back]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeLLR3LWtv4

[Latrinsorm]

Are you suggesting I'm suggesting that?The ? glyph denotes a question.

[Ardwen]

Aren't you able to insure your loan so that this doesn;t happen, I know you can do so with most other sorts of loans

[Tgo01]

Aren't you able to insure your loan so that this doesn;t happen, I know you can do so with most other sorts of loans

Yeah but that costs money.

[crb]

I think all schooling should be free. If you do good in school, you get to go to the next level education... All competitive.

Not a bad idea, but there is an incentive problem.

Third party payment systems are bad, mmkay. They short circuit normal marketplace signals and tend to result in higher prices and lower quality. The two areas in our economy that have this are education and healthcare. The consumer of the service is usually not the one paying for it, and even with student loans kids feel as if they're not paying for it so you get the same issues.

Now testing is of course a good idea, and not looking at skin color at all is of course a good idea, but it'd have to be continuous testing or performance monitoring, you get into Harvard, then start slacking off, you get dumped. That way you can deal with the individual incentive problem of the consumer not having skin in the game.

However this is a second problem in educational choice. It matters what you study. If you take away the cost of an education we're likely to get more useless degrees that don't result in jobs, that doesn't help our economy any. A student should still be forced to make the calculation of what their future earning potential is with a particular major vs the cost of the degree. That is one of the larger overarching signals in the economy, that X job is better than Y job, so you're better off getting training in X job.

Then you also have a problem, and this already exists today in our current system, of many schools having no incentive to increase the quality of their instruction. The ratio of administrative to teaching employees at major universities has become a travesty, the amount of non instructional spending is a joke. Universities have become bloated examples of wasteful spending because they have more customers than they can handle, and the third party payment means the students don't care that much about price. So tuitions increase to pay for some new campus office of bullshittery.

You'll also have people who just become lifelong students, like this guy I read an article about who got 17 degrees, what a waste.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, but colleges could afford to instruct a lot more people, or to do it for less money, if they didn't spend like an Obama.

But sure, merit based scholarships are excellent, if there is a smart hard working kid out there he or she deserves to go to college for free.

[crb]

Aren't you able to insure your loan so that this doesn;t happen, I know you can do so with most other sorts of loans

Insurance so that if you die your loan is paid off?

They call that life insurance I think, always a good idea. The parents could have gotten a policy on the child for really cheap at her age.

[Ardwen]

No you can add insurance to the actual loan, not a seperate policy, hell I have my home loan insured thru work as well in case something catastrophic happens it costs something like 1 buck very two weeks for all my loans home car etc

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Just balance transfer as much of the amount to credit cards and stop paying those cards to reduce the overall debt load and then file bankruptcy!

Some dude on Reddit did this after going through medical school. He graduated, transferred almost all of his student loan debt to credit cards, then filed for bankruptcy. The comments were a mixture of "Fuck you!" and "LOL"

[crb]

As I said before what really gets me is this is just private student loan debt; how much federal student loan debt did she have?

I could see 100k if she was going for her masters, and I don't think they said in the article what she was going for. What I can't understand is how the debt supposedly doubled to 200k in 4 years. Even if you miss all of the payments I think that's impossible, how would anyone ever pay back their student loans if it doubled in 4 years?



Buckwheet knows how to play the system!

Wait its even worse, she had exhausted her federal debt on top of the 100k/200k she owed to Vinny who works out of the office above Goomba's Pizza?

[crb]

No you can add insurance to the actual loan, not a seperate policy, hell I have my home loan insured thru work as well in case something catastrophic happens it costs something like 1 buck very two weeks for all my loans home car etc

Thats aflac probably through work.

Mortgage insurance also exists but you buy it from the bank, its required often when your downpayment is less than 20%.

But life insurance is the typical way of handling debt payments in the event of a death.

[Tgo01]

Wait its even worse, she had exhausted her federal debt on top of the 100k/200k she owed to Vinny who works out of the office above Goomba's Pizza?

I don't know if she did; I just imagine she did. I mean why not? Federal stafford loans are about the best loans you can get, why not get those first?

[Ardwen]

100k debt isnt much when you look at what the top schools cost per year, some are probably over 40k by now if ya add in housing. I know theres a lot well over 30k per

Apparently I was vastly underestimating, top is past 60k total per year,

[Jarvan]

100k debt isnt much when you look at what the top schools cost per year, some are probably over 40k by now if ya add in housing. I know theres a lot well over 30k per

Apparently I was vastly underestimating, top is past 60k total per year,

Yes, but if you are going to Yale for Nursing, you are doing it wrong.

[Warriorbird]

Yes, but if you are going to Yale for Nursing, you are doing it wrong.

The prices can get up there at other places apart from Yale. If we're just looking at this as a function of undergraduate level degrees we might be off base. 200k could show up from pushing from basic nursing to more advanced stuff.

[Ardwen]

Most expensive is some liberal arts college in NYC actually very very far from the ivy league

[Silvean]

>Most expensive is some liberal arts college in NYC actually very very far from the ivy league

Yes, for example, we can take Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. They report their Cost of Attendance (Tuition + Books + Housing + Food) at $59,626. This would be the maximum amount you could take out in loans for an academic year. Harvard reports their Cost of Attendance at $58,607. The big difference is that Harvard "meets need" and has a lot more scholarship or need based aid money to provide to admitted students with poor parents. It is quite possible for a lower middle class family to send a student to Harvard. To put it another way, when you call financial aid at Loyola, they are probably going to start talking loans. When you call Harvard, there will be more gift aid coming into the picture.

When I was a financial aid officer, I worked with a lot of families who were judged as having no need but couldn't afford to pay for college. So, the government financial aid form (FAFSA) would take their tax returns into consideration and see that the family was earning six figures but the family was overextended with multiple homes, boats, etc. These kinds of families would casually borrow $200,000 for their kid to attend a school like Loyola Marymount.

[Stretch]

I'm actually all for bankruptcy reform and education reform. Shut down the for-profit schools that can't prove that their graduates are able to obtain a job that would enable a reasonable ROI on tuition costs, and make lenders put more skin in the game by reversing the mid-2000s changes. While we're at it, I'd love it if we could get rid of Chapter 7 (except for maybe medical/real hardship), and cap the amount you're able to protect from creditors w.r.t. home equity in states like Florida.

As an aside, if you can prove hardship today, you can get student loans discharged. It's just incredibly hard and tedious.

[Jarvan]

>Most expensive is some liberal arts college in NYC actually very very far from the ivy league

Yes, for example, we can take Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles. They report their Cost of Attendance (Tuition + Books + Housing + Food) at $59,626. This would be the maximum amount you could take out in loans for an academic year. Harvard reports their Cost of Attendance at $58,607. The big difference is that Harvard "meets need" and has a lot more scholarship or need based aid money to provide to admitted students with poor parents. It is quite possible for a lower middle class family to send a student to Harvard. To put it another way, when you call financial aid at Loyola, they are probably going to start talking loans. When you call Harvard, there will be more gift aid coming into the picture.

When I was a financial aid officer, I worked with a lot of families who were judged as having no need but couldn't afford to pay for college. So, the government financial aid form (FAFSA) would take their tax returns into consideration and see that the family was earning six figures but the family was overextended with multiple homes, boats, etc. These kinds of families would casually borrow $200,000 for their kid to attend a school like Loyola Marymount.

Maybe it's just me.. but if you are going to nursing school somewhere where you need to pay housing.. you are doing it wrong. At least the early part of nursing school.

Then again, I have 4 schools in my county that teach Nursing.. so maybe it's just me.

[waywardgs]

Nursing can get pretty specialized and tehnical. They ain't glorified candystripers anymore.

[Rallorick]

Jarvan - what exactly do you have against the idea of free education?

[Ker_Thwap]

Maybe it's just me.. but if you are going to nursing school somewhere where you need to pay housing.. you are doing it wrong. At least the early part of nursing school.

Then again, I have 4 schools in my county that teach Nursing.. so maybe it's just me.

You can get an associates in two years, with in state tuition of about $11K annually, then go from RPN to LN. ($33,000 tuition total for RN) Even in the woods of NH, there are two programs about 40 minutes from me. There's also a 4 year college 5 minutes from me that offers a BS in nursing that qualifies you to be a LPN as well, with a BS. For tuition only of $50,000 a year. (total for RN of $200,000)

The median salary for most RNs of $65K, and the best paid ones earning $95K. There are also a lot of options for a nurse to qualify for the Public Service Loan Repayment Program.

There are easy ways to become a nurse, and then there are opportunities to go live with a bunch of people your own age, party and put off becoming a nurse for as long as possible.

[Warriorbird]

You can get an associates in two years, with in state tuition of about $11K annually, then go from RPN to LN. ($33,000 tuition total for RN) Even in the woods of NH, there are two programs about 40 minutes from me. There's also a 4 year college 5 minutes from me that offers a BS in nursing that qualifies you to be a LPN as well, with a BS. For tuition only of $50,000 a year. (total for RN of $200,000)

The median salary for most RNs of $65K, and the best paid ones earning $95K. There are also a lot of options for a nurse to qualify for the Public Service Loan Repayment Program.

There are easy ways to become a nurse, and then there are opportunities to go live with a bunch of people your own age, party and put off becoming a nurse for as long as possible.

It's a tragedy because she might well have made a reasonable effort and paid it off or gotten it paid off for her.

With that said, upon further digging, both she and her folks didn't choose the insurance coverage for a fair portion of her loans, so it's a more a testimony for what not to do if you make your parents cosign.

[AnticorRifling]

So they signed their name(s) after reading the documents, and understanding the risks involved as evident by their signature(s),they would be responsible if their child didn't pay (since they were co-signing) and now since their kid can't pay they have to, per the terms they agreed to by signing the documents, and they're shocked?


Why is this even a story. If you can't afford to assume the debt you don't co-sign. If you can't afford the debt you don't sign. These aren't new concepts.

[Anebriated]

Late to the conversation but I think the fact that college loans are so easy to obtain is why you see more people in crazy amounts of debt that they cant pay off. Kids want to get away from their parents and party it up(not all the time but its becoming increasingly more common/accepted) for 4 years at a big name school whether they deserve to be there or not. Sadly many of these kids would be better served going to trade schools, smaller state schools or even community colleges for the first few semesters that are more affordable. There is no reason to be paying a major university for a bachelors in communications or some other BS degree.

[AnticorRifling]

Late to the conversation but I think the fact that college loans are so easy to obtain is why you see more people in crazy amounts of debt that they cant pay off. Kids want to get away from their parents and party it up(not all the time but its becoming increasingly more common/accepted) for 4 years at a big name school whether they deserve to be there or not. Sadly many of these kids would be better served going to trade schools, smaller state schools or even community colleges for the first few semesters that are more affordable. There is no reason to be paying a major university for a bachelors in communications or some other BS degree.
Just imagine if the parents took the time to actually sit down and talk with their kids and explain this. Raise my kids?! Fuck that let the teachers do it I'm off to party!

[Anebriated]

Well thats another issue in itself. Parents think that the teachers along the way are the ones who should be raising their kids. Almost to the point where teachers have become glorified babysitters. Its kind of sad.

[Warriorbird]

Late to the conversation but I think the fact that college loans are so easy to obtain is why you see more people in crazy amounts of debt that they cant pay off. Kids want to get away from their parents and party it up(not all the time but its becoming increasingly more common/accepted) for 4 years at a big name school whether they deserve to be there or not. Sadly many of these kids would be better served going to trade schools, smaller state schools or even community colleges for the first few semesters that are more affordable. There is no reason to be paying a major university for a bachelors in communications or some other BS degree.

There's nothing here to indicate she might not have paid it off. Unfortunately there's stuff to indicate that her folks/her could've insured away the results of 80-90% of this.

[crb]

Just imagine if the parents took the time to actually sit down and talk with their kids and explain this. Raise my kids?! Fuck that let the teachers do it I'm off to party!

Don't assume parents are financially literate. Look at how much of this country is plain financially illiterate, I mean, Obama won the popular vote afterall.

[AnticorRifling]

Don't assume parents are financially literate. Look at how much of this country is plain financially illiterate, I mean, Obama won the popular vote afterall. Fair enough on the literate point. But seriously people read shit before you sign it, if you don't understand what you're reading...ask. Shit is hard for real.

[Anebriated]

There's nothing here to indicate she might not have paid it off. Unfortunately there's stuff to indicate that her folks/her could've insured away the results of 80-90% of this.

You might be correct in that statement but the original story is such a non-story that I made a general statement about the current collegiate system and the financial ramifications that most people ignore.

[Silvean]

It is even easier to draw out huge debt when you get to graduate school. You are able to pull out a Graduate PLUS, a type of federal loan, without worrying about parents as a co-signer anymore and use that to borrow up to the cost of attendance, i.e. ~$60,000. You sign a paper and it is done. Stafford loans can max out but these never did as I recall.

With these undergraduate loans, a lot of young people are looking to pay for a college experience. So that means they are paying that huge money to go to a college with a campus they fell in love with or they are excited that the college is in a major city. They also use loan money to pay for study abroad.

Working at a private university, I met lots of young people taking on huge debt. But, to the contrary, when I was a public school teacher, I don't recall any of my college-bound students applying to go to an out-of-state school. Even the ones I pressed on to try applying to Harvard, they just couldn't fathom the amount of gift aid they might receive or they didn't want to be that far away from home.

[Warriorbird]

It is even easier to draw out huge debt when you get to graduate school. You are able to pull out a Graduate PLUS, a type of federal loan, without worrying about parents as a co-signer anymore and use that to borrow up to the cost of attendance, i.e. ~$60,000. You sign a paper and it is done. Stafford loans can max out but these never did as I recall.

With these undergraduate loans, a lot of young people are looking to pay for a college experience. So that means they are paying that huge money to go to a college with a campus they fell in love with or they are excited that the college is in a major city. They also use loan money to pay for study abroad.

Working at a private university, I met lots of young people taking on huge debt. But, to the contrary, when I was a public school teacher, I don't recall any of my college-bound students applying to go to an out-of-state school. Even the ones I pressed on to try applying to Harvard, they just couldn't fathom the amount of gift aid they might receive or they didn't want to be that far away from home.

Public school/private school divide.

[Kembal]

At least at Penn, the Nursing School had the highest admission rate of the four undergraduate colleges. it was possible to get into the Nursing School and then transfer into the College of Arts and Sciences after year....a friend of mine ended up doing that, though I was never sure if she planned it that way or she just realized she didn't want to be a nurse.

Those look like financially illiterate parents to me. That said, there need to be better protections on student loans, and student loan debt is a major public policy problem. It appears one of the reasons that the housing industry hasn't bounced back yet is that employed young people are still paying off their student loan debt, which means they're leery of taking on a mortgage. Lack of recovery in housing = underperforming economy.

[Anebriated]

Grad school is a whole different ball game. Grad school today is almost what a regular college degree was 30 years ago. Also, Penn is a great nursing program and the Penn Hospital is one of the best in the country. That matters when trying to get a job post college. I had a few friends who went to Temple for undergrad and then Penn for their masters in various degrees. University of the Sciences has some great programs but why are kids going there for unspecialized degrees? I understand paying that tuition if you are going to walk out as a pharmacist but there are a ton of kids there getting regular management degrees paying 3x the tuition of what they would at Temple for essentially the same program.