What to do in Iraq?

[Dendum]

Before this becomes a political issue and the lines get drawn for no good reason at all. The recent Iraq flare up

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/insurgents-in-northern-iraq-push-toward-major-oil-installations/2014/06/11/3983dd22-f162-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html

Should we start bombing? Limited aid like we already do? Just let them deal with, and potentially have another government in power?

[Tgo01]

At this point I don't know what we can do. They wanted us out of there so we left so...I dunno.

[Androidpk]

At this point I don't know what we can do. They wanted us out of there so we left so...I dunno.

I have no idea either. It seems any decision is going to end up causing more harm than good. I don't know very much about ISIS either.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Nothing. We shouldn't have bothered with the place to begin with. And the last thing I want to do is see my brothers sent to help fill the bank accounts of politicians yet again for a country full of people too fucking scared to defend themselves. Fuck that noise. Besides, who the hell would want to deploy in a quasi-newish conflict under this ludicrous administration anyway?

[Vorpos]

It isn't really worth it. Sending troops in will just delay the inevitable. Air strikes will just get civilians killed. Obama's only option is to have Pajama Boy mount a hashtag offensive.

[Androidpk]

Can't the new Iraqi Army handle this? Didn't we spend a shit ton of money training them and equipping them with weapons and vehicles? I just did a quick search and it loos like they have around 14 divisions.

[Taernath]

Nation building: not even once.

[Taernath]

Can't the new Iraqi Army handle this? Didn't we spend a shit ton of money training them and equipping them with weapons and vehicles? I just did a quick search and it loos like they have around 14 divisions.

As late as 2009 the Iraqi PSD for their prime minister didn't know they had to change the oil in their trucks.

[Dwaar]

Iraq was on a good path. Then... we elected Obama.

6 years later... You see what we have.

Also, all those people that say "well we should have never been there", as politicians are fond of doing, need to realize something. If you bash a guy for years, then take his job saying you'll do it better.... YOU made that choice to assume that responsibility. So it is on your head. Obama just makes decisions based on his limited cognitive abilities. I think he truly believes, he can just say something in a speech, and it magically happens.

"I'm going to end the war in Iraq!".... Well he did and that is all fine, but that doesn't mean you leave the fucking country completely, forget about it, and do not have any interaction with it at all. There is a thing called diplomacy, SOFA agreements (which he didn't try to get at all-lip service), and providing military advisors to ensure our interests are maintained. He has no concept of the consistent attention that such endeavors requires.

Obama has literally thrown away all the work that was put into Iraq, tossing the Middle East into turmoil. When we were in Iraq, you hardly heard of any protests, uprisings, overthrow of governments while we had a presence there. Obama pulls us out and says screw it and Islamic Fundamentalism is spreading like wildfire... because of his decisions, we are going to be screwed in 20 years. I actually would not be surprised if Israel gets overrun, or someone tries in the next 10-15 years.

[Androidpk]

Does Iran have anything to do with ISIS?

[Dwaar]

Does Iran have anything to do with ISIS?

The ISIS is Sunni based, most of Iran is Shia based. So doubtful they're fiddling to much with them. Though they could be.

The thing to realize... Sunni and Shia hate each other. They'll fight each other like they've been doing ever since Mohammed died. There is one thing they hate/wish to convert more than each other though. That is anyone not like them.

Sort of like when you fight your brother, no one better step in. You step in, they'll both turn on you.

[Androidpk]

I can easily see Israel attacked in a major fashion at some point in the next decade. I hope it doesn't come to that as I can't see them going down without dropping nukes.

At any rate we still have other problematic areas.

Iran
China
Russia
North Korea
District of Columbia

Maybe it's time for another world war to shake things up.

[Dwaar]

I can easily see Israel attacked in a major fashion at some point in the next decade. I hope it doesn't come to that as I can't see them going down without dropping nukes.

What would it matter? I'm being serious. If Israel feels they are going to be overrun, and no one comes to their aid... hey they might drop a nuke or two. Make it known... if A occurs, we will do B. Your call.

Just asking.. say Israel got invaded in the next 2 years. Do you think Obama would actually mobilize our full military to help? I'm not so sure. Good article from a guy that's been focused on it for years... http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/03/06/jeffrey-goldberg-says-he-interpreted-obamas-comments-on-israel-as-a-veiled-threat/

Depending on who our next President is, I'll wait to speculate on that one.

I don't dislike Obama as a person, but his view seems to be one of ignorant bliss. I just don't think he is equipped with an understanding of the world, the evil in it, and what it really takes to maintain our standing in the world. At some point you have to realize there is a difference between wanting something, getting something, and actually maintaining something.

[Gelston]

I was in Iraq. We shouldn't do a goddamn thing. Let the Iraqi people figure it out.

[Androidpk]

I guess because I could see Iran retaliating with nukes in kind. That is if they aren't the ones to launch first. And how would the rest of the world react to something like that? What kind of psychological effect would it play on Americans and this country? What if Iran wanted to go down in flames and hid nuclear armed scud missiles in concealed cargo containers on ships off the coast of the US? Detonate a few in the upper atmosphere of the eastern seaboard?

No, I don't think Obama would go to Israel's defense. I think he made a fool of himself in regards to chemical weapons being used in Syria and that whole spiel about crossing the red line.

[Androidpk]

I was in Iraq. We shouldn't do a goddamn thing. Let the Iraqi people figure it out.

Nothing at all? I was going to suggest strapping kevlar vests on all members of congress, hand them a rifle and maybe a parachute and air drop them into Iraq. Let them do it this time.

[Dwaar]

I was in Iraq. We shouldn't do a goddamn thing. Let the Iraqi people figure it out.

I was too, and agree with you. At this point there is nothing we can do. I guess I was trying to make the point that, this situation should have never occurred. If we'd left 10-15k there acting as advisors/INTEL/air support, this would be a whole different ballgame.

I hate seeing what this has become, after the sacrifice this country made to give Iraq a chance.

[Dwaar]

Nothing at all? I was going to suggest strapping kevlar vests on all members of congress, hand them a rifle and maybe a parachute and air drop them into Iraq. Let them do it this time.

HAHA.. I like that one :)

[Gelston]

We can't force a way of life on a people. My job in Iraq was with a MiTT. We trained the Iraqi Army. You can only give them so much. They had the best training and weapons that we could give them. We can not fight all their battles for them. They need to step up and take charge of their country.

[Dwaar]

I guess because I could see Iran retaliating with nukes in kind. That is if they aren't the ones to launch first. And how would the rest of the world react to something like that? What kind of psychological effect would it play on Americans and this country? What if Iran wanted to go down in flames and hid nuclear armed scud missiles in concealed cargo containers on ships off the coast of the US? Detonate a few in the upper atmosphere of the eastern seaboard?

No, I don't think Obama would go to Israel's defense. I think he made a fool of himself in regards to chemical weapons being used in Syria and that whole spiel about crossing the red line.

Nah, Iran wouldn't launch first. If Israel was getting overrun, and no one helped, they wouldn't give a damn what the rest of the world thought. If the world didn't help, I don't think they have a leg to stand on and claim moral outrage. All good questions and all conjecture at this point, but I think the Israeli's would defend itself first and worry about the fallout later.

Think of it like this.... Israel has roughly 8 million people.

The ISIS just took over two of the largest cities in Iraq, that totals around 3-3.5 million people. Now they didn't face the Israeli army, but if Israel's neighbors decided to gang up.... you're looking at 60-100m+ against 8m.

[Gelston]

Israel doesn't need a large army. They are professionals. Big difference.

[Dwaar]

We can't force a way of life on a people. My job in Iraq was with a MiTT. We trained the Iraqi Army. You can only give them so much. They had the best training and weapons that we could give them. We can not fight all their battles for them. They need to step up and take charge of their country.

I understand that sentiment fully. I couldn't stand how inept the guys I worked with were. Some were good, but the majority... /shake head. But with your experience, you have to realize, when we pulled out, we took everything. Dog was left off the leash. What was gained? So everything you worked for while on your team, wasted.

Sadly international politics is a messy business. If Iraq was ever just about Iraq, I would agree with you much more. This is about a whole region and ideology that we were trying to keep a handle on.

Just look at what has occurred in Egypt under Obama. For years and years, Egypt was our partner and because of our presence and relationship with them, it kept things pretty stable in that region. Obama just blew that relationship up, by really just neglecting it.

[Dwaar]

Israel doesn't need a large army. They are professionals. Big difference.

They'd put up a fight, but they'd be demolished if a few of their neighbors actually coordinated it, and Israel didn't receive any support.

[Androidpk]

Israel doesn't need a large army. They are professionals. Big difference.

Professionals decked out with some serious technology and firepower. Outnumbered? Yup. Just like in the six day war, but look at the number of casualties they inflicted versus the amount they took. They are a force to be reckoned with, I reckon.

[Gelston]

That isn't it at all. You can't blame Obama for Iraq. Sorry, you cant. Did Saddam need to go? Yes he did. I was in Baghdad when he was executed. There was cheering and celebratory fire. We gave these people training. We gave them weapons. We left them with up armored vehicles. They have a lot more then we had back in the 1780s. They need to either step up and create their nation or die.

[Gelston]

Professionals decked out with some serious technology and firepower. Outnumbered? Yup. Just like in the six day war, but look at the number of casualties they inflicted versus the amount they took. They are a force to be reckoned with, I reckon.
We hooked them up. Same way we hooked up Iraq.

[Androidpk]

Where in Iraq were you? I was supposed to have been in camp victory at that point but I got bumped and replaced by national guard. Still upset over that.

[Gelston]

I was at Victory and the moved to Camp Iraqi Heroes.

[Dendum]

I think they have the equipment and manpower to fight if they have the willpower, I do not know if the current government is inclusive enough to stop the fighting even if we went full on Fallujah level airstrikes. Yea it might stop them now but it wouldn't fix the underlying problem and we would have to do it again in twelve month or twenty four.

I am no expert on 2014 Iraq though so maybe that is all erroneous thoughts based on bad information.

[Androidpk]

Was there alcohol and AC at victory? :D

[Gelston]

What I have seen, they lack the will power. Except the Kurds. The North was always calm. And no, Mosul wasn't a Kurdish city.

[Dwaar]

That isn't it at all. You can't blame Obama for Iraq. Sorry, you cant. Did Saddle need to go? Yes he did. I was in Baghdad when he was executed. There was cheering and celebratory fire. We gave these people training. We gave them weapons. We left them with up armored vehicles. They have a lot more then we had back in the 1780s. They need to either step up and create their nation or die.

It's what that nation becomes after they "die". That is the point. This is not just someone like Saddam coming to power and quelling the masses to rule a single nation. This is now a land grab by Islamic Fundamentalists that will alter the whole region. That will have an impact on us and the world.

I can blame Obama for what has occurred. He is the President. He wanted the job, he got the job, and so he assumed the responsibility. His decisions has led to the disintegration of all the gains your sacrifices helped create.

I was there when we pulled his statue down, I was there when he was executed, I was there long after doing things to try and help that country. I'm sure you saw it, people can argue all they want about why we went there, but I know what type of person he was and the things he did to his people. I saw enough beheadings to last me a lifetime. Those experiences are why it makes me sad, to see the sacrifices made, just tossed away... when I believe that 10-15k troops left behind to help guide their Government and Military would have saved countless lives that are now being lost; and the multitude of lives that will be lost in the future.

[Taernath]

I was at Victory and the moved to Camp Iraqi Heroes.

I was in the place right outside Victory until we moved to Echo. Freedom I think, but separate from where they had the swank MWR.

[Gelston]

Was there alcohol and AC at victory? :D

No. The British had all their alcohol at the IZ. The news always called it the Green Zone.

[Gelston]

It's what that nation becomes after they "die". That is the point. This is not just someone like Saddam coming to power and quelling the masses to rule a single nation. This is now a land grab by Islamic Fundamentalists that will alter the whole region. That will have an impact on us and the world.

I can blame Obama for what has occurred. He is the President. He wanted the job, he got the job, and so he assumed the responsibility. His decisions has led to the disintegration of all the gains your sacrifices helped create.

I was there when we pulled his statue down, I was there when he was executed, I was there long after doing things to try and help that country. I'm sure you saw it, people can argue all they want about why we went there, but I know what type of person he was and the things he did to his people. I saw enough beheadings to last me a lifetime. Those experiences are why it makes me sad, to see the sacrifices made, just tossed away... when I believe that 10-15k troops left behind to help guide their Government and Military would have saved countless lives that are now being lost; and the multitude of lives that will be lost in the future.

What branch were you in, if I can ask.

[Dwaar]

What I have seen, they lack the will power. Except the Kurds. The North was always calm. And no, Mosul wasn't a Kurdish city.

On this point I fully agree with you. I could never figure it out, and I love psychology. Best I could ever come up with is the whole Insha'Allah thing. God willing. Whatever happens is meant to be. It always just seemed the majority of them lived by that credo, instead of realizing they held their own fate in their hands.

[Dwaar]

What branch were you in, if I can ask.

Army.

[Androidpk]

Man.. where are all my air force brethren at??

[Gelston]

Army.

We're you at the location or just in the country? Because Marines pulled that down.

[Dwaar]

Man.. where are all my air force brethren at??

HAHA.. unless your a JTAC, just hush and give me a ride!

[Dwaar]

We're you at the location or just in the country? Because Marines pulled that down.

I was just in country.

[Gelston]

I was just in country.
Ah okay cool. I tend to call out everyone claiming military service, and it is nothing personal. So many try to fake it to make an argument.

[Androidpk]

Hey man, I was just the camera guy. I did have my own sweet ride though, some kind of miniature pickup truck like thing. Fun as hell to tear around base in.

[Dwaar]

Ah okay cool. I tend to call out everyone claiming military service, and it is nothing personal. So many try to fake it to make an argument.

http://www.stolenvalor.com/kudos.cfm

Can't stand those people.

As for my argument, it is what it is. Everyone views it differently, but I hate knowing at some point death could have been mitigated in the future by the actions we take now.

[Gelston]

Hey man, I was just the camera guy. I did have my own sweet ride though, some kind of miniature pickup truck like thing. Fun as hell to tear around base in.

We had a white mitsubishi pickup for on base. It had brain matter splattered all on the cloth roof. Everything else was humvees.

Hard to believe, but even in Baghdad Iraq MPs would pull you over for speeding.

[Androidpk]

I forget what make/model but looked very similar to this.

http://www.monkys.jp/e/truck/Japanese_mini_truck.htm

Meanwhile everyone else on base was in brand new F-150s :(

[Dwaar]

Hey man, I was just the camera guy. I did have my own sweet ride though, some kind of miniature pickup truck like thing. Fun as hell to tear around base in.

Noooo. You had to be a camera guy. HAHA.

Funny story, short on details. But someone up the chain, got the bright idea to send a combat camera guy to stay a week with us. Get some good footage all that. So this poor AF guy shows up about 2 hours before we roll out. We roll out and the next day, he took off and went back to wherever he came from. Don't think he was expecting anything would actually happen... sad part he didn't get any real footage.

[Gelston]

BONGO TRUCK!! We'd get a BOLO for one of those full of bombs. Half the fucking vehicles in Iraq are white bongos though.

[Dwaar]

We had a white mitsubishi pickup for on base. It had brain matter splattered all on the cloth roof. Everything else was humvees.

Hard to believe, but even in Baghdad Iraq MPs would pull you over for speeding.

??? You actually stopped for those fools? Damn man, you crazy.

[Gelston]

??? You actually stopped for those fools? Damn man, you crazy.

On Victory, yeah. They weren't outside the FOB though. I was technically 1st ID at the time and their Sgt Maj loved to visit us.

[Androidpk]

Yeah, don't ask how I ended up with that job, still don't know why. My younger bro is going for helicopter pilot, search/rescue, you can ask him for a lift in about 2 years.

[Androidpk]

BONGO TRUCK!! We'd get a BOLO for one of those full of bombs. Half the fucking vehicles in Iraq are white bongos though.

lol

[Gelston]

Creepiest moment I ever had was in Afghanistan. A big ass truck pulls up when we are doing a checkpoint. Cali plates that weren't expired yet. Pull the occupants and went up to check it solo (as I always did) and it was legit. So weird seeing California plates in Afghanistan though.

[Dwaar]

On Victory, yeah. They weren't outside the FOB though.

It always cracked us up when we'd head over to BIAP to use the gym or DFAC. We always carried hot, so never thought about it. So we'd have people freaking out on us all the time. Course we were in civvies or modified uniforms, and one day some E-6 went off on our CSM. I guess that ticked him off a bit, because about two weeks later we all had small cards authorizing us to carry however we wanted. Silly things in retrospect, but had to keep our humor up somehow.

[Dwaar]

Yeah, don't ask how I ended up with that job, still don't know why. My younger bro is going for helicopter pilot, search/rescue, you can ask him for a lift in about 2 years.

I actually wish I had gone Combat Camera. I really enjoy observing things, travelling, seeing history and being the one to record it, I think would be really satisfying. Not sure if you enjoy that type of stuff, but I've thought about when I retire going to work for Nat Geo, Discovery Channel, etc. and being a camera guy. Get paid to travel to out of the way places in the world, sign me up!

There is nothing better than doors open, legs out at about 1000ft. /sigh

Now if they'd stop making me jump out of those things I'd be happy!

[Dwaar]

Creepiest moment I ever had was in Afghanistan. A big ass truck pulls up when we are doing a checkpoint. Cali plates that weren't expired yet. Pull the occupants and went up to check it solo (as I always did) and it was legit. So weird seeing California plates in Afghanistan though.

HAHA. That would freak me out too!

[Androidpk]

don't be jealous of my mandatory reflective safety belt. :|

[Gelston]

Fobbites! I loved when they'd yell at me and then ask who my CO was. Yeah, my CO was a full bird colonel and he treated me like a son. It made my job on the MiTT a lot easier because I could pull all the ammo I needed to get these fuckers on the range.

[Androidpk]

I actually wish I had gone Combat Camera. I really enjoy observing things, travelling, seeing history and being the one to record it, I think would be really satisfying. Not sure if you enjoy that type of stuff, but I've thought about when I retire going to work for Nat Geo, Discovery Channel, etc. and being a camera guy. Get paid to travel to out of the way places in the world, sign me up!

I loved my job, I should have stayed in. I think I would have enjoyed it more in the army though. My tech school was at Fort Meade and there was a lot of army in my class. Only one marine.

[Dwaar]

don't be jealous of my mandatory reflective safety belt. :|

HAHAHA... that actually has me laughing out loud. Seriously though, thanks for your service PK.

[Dwaar]

Fobbites! I loved when they'd yell at me and then ask who my CO was. Yeah, my CO was a full bird colonel and he treated me like a son. It made my job on the MiTT a lot easier because I could pull all the ammo I needed to get these fuckers on the range.

So much fun right! :)

I know we're in/were in the military, I dig the discipline to a degree, and the tradition I really enjoy. But there is nothing like doing something like you refer to, and having that autonomy to do your job and say fuck all else.

[Gelston]

I did 9 years, the post 9/11 GI Bill came out after I reenlisted... I can always go back in as an O1E... and I do consider it. I miss the Marines.

[Androidpk]

HAHAHA... that actually has me laughing out loud. Seriously though, thanks for your service PK.

This is serious business..

http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/jeremycassels/reflect-belt.jpg (http://i694.photobucket.com/albums/vv301/jeremycassels/reflect-belt.jpg)


Thank you guys as well.

[Dwaar]

I did 9 years, the post 9/11 GI Bill came out after I reenlisted... I can always go back in as an O1E... and I do consider it. I miss the Marines.

Dad was a Marine, and I really like working with you guys. When the Marines stood up MARSOC, was really sort of funny. They'd send reps to conferences, or teams to train, as they were brought into the fold. Took a few years, but they finally realized:

1. high and tights do not belong
2. you must wear non-regulation sunglasses; and only move them on top of your head - no removing them
3. shorts and tanning are mandatory when the sun is shining
4. you must consume 800g of protein a day and only drink from a Nalgene bottle
5. baseball caps are mandatory - at work or off work

They're pretty much broken in at this point :P

[Androidpk]

The autonomy was one of my favorite things about being a videographer. That and being able to tell generals where to stand and what to say. Chairman of the joint chiefs of staff? Yes sir I'm gonna have to ask you to stand over there for this shot..

[Androidpk]

Err.. mandatory tanning!?

[Gelston]

Funny thing about those rules, I have broken them since day one. Always had the low fade, always wore non regarding sun glasses.... okay.. They were Wiley Xs. At the rank of Sgt, I did what I wanted.

[Dwaar]

Err.. mandatory tanning!?

Of course! How we do!

6. Oh.. and bang all the AF chicks you can.

Thanks AF!

[Gelston]

The autonomy was one of my favorite things about being a videographer. That and being able to tell generals where to stand and what to say. Chairman of the joint chiefs of staff? Yes sir I'm gonna have to ask you to stand over there for this shot..

I once had that privilege when we had a BrigGen come with us on a patrol. He told me to treat him like a private... I may have gotten a little carried away.

[Androidpk]

Irish here and I was at al udeid in the summer months and still couldn't tan for the life of me.

[Gelston]

Of course! How we do!

6. Oh.. and bang all the AF chicks you can.

Thanks AF!

AF has the best looking girls in the Armed Forces. Army is #2

[Dwaar]

Funny thing about those rules, I have broken them since day one. Always had the low fade, always wore non regarding sun glasses.... okay.. They were Wiley Xs. At the rank of Sgt, I did what I wanted.

You should re-enlist and go MARSOC! You'd have a great time.

[Dwaar]

Irish here and I was at al udeid in the summer months and still couldn't tan for the life of me.

Oh god! Cameraman and a ginger?? Sorry man :(

:)

[Gelston]

You should re-enlist and go MARSOC! You'd have a great time.

I did pass the recon indoc, but I decided I liked being a regular 0311 more.

[Dwaar]

AF has the best looking girls in the Armed Forces. Army is #2

Are you nuts?

AF then Navy. Course Navy ladies have a little more meat on them, but hey...

[Androidpk]

Pseudo ginger. Brown hair but my facial hair is ginger :/

[Dwaar]

Okay guys. Was fun, but work in the morning. Was fun talking :) .

[Androidpk]

I actually noticed more army hotties than AF, at least at meade.

[Gelston]

Are you nuts?

AF then Navy. Course Navy ladies have a little more meat on them, but hey...

I've been on a MEU. Navy girls are not hot.

[Gelston]

Omg, we are going to get so much feminist neg rep.

[Androidpk]

We're safe for now, back is asleep.

[Gelston]

Also, where did Dwaar come from? We don't get a lot of new posters that aren't straight up trolls, but he doesn't seem like one.

[Gelston]

At first I thought he was, but I don't think so anymore.

[Androidpk]

No idea, was wondering that myself. Actually thought he might have been delias at first, lol

[Gelston]

I was thinking Anticor, but no Marine would ever say they were Army.

You'll run into guys that are in saying things like fuck the Marine Corps... but we are pretty proud of that stuff.

[Androidpk]

Right, definitely not. Air force yeah but not army.

[Gelston]

Why did you pick Air Force? I picked the Marines because my grandfather's on both sides were Air Force, my dad was Air Force, I wanted something different. The Marine recruiter was the one in my school that day so I went with that.

This was a few weeks prior to 9/11 as well.

[Androidpk]

Because I wanted to do pararescue. As it turns out my recruiter misled me about my meps health screening. He told me everything was perfect but one in basic I found out my hearing in my right ear is not so good. If I had known that before I would have gone marines instead, that was my second choice.

I signed up a few weeks after 9/11 as well.

[Androidpk]

One of my grandfathers was air force, the other was army. Trying to find out more info about him. From what little I know he was a captain during ww2, over in Europe.

[Androidpk]

Pretty excited for my younger brother going for csr. He just started flight school earlier this year.

[Gelston]

Recruiters lying! Glad I didn't have to suffer that. I went in and told him I want this and I want to enlist ASAP. He still tried to tell me about benefits and stuff, but I pretty much just said "can I sign already".

[Androidpk]

Did you go to basic immediately? My ship date want until the first week of that coming February.

[Gelston]

One of my grandfather's was a LtCol during Vietnam. Flew B 52s but started in fighters. My mother's birth certificate in 63 lists him as a captain. Insane thinking he was a LtCol back when all the 4 stars we have today were 2ndLts. Other grandpa was an E7 when he got out. My dad was a shit bag and got kicked our at E3. Well, military isn't for everyone right?

I so miss it though. So many times that fucking sucked but hey, where else do you get to hang out with your friends and guns all day?

[Androidpk]

Haha, almost 40 hours later and I'm finally starting to feel sleepy. Peace!

[Gelston]

Did you go to basic immediately? My ship date want until the first week of that coming February.

I was in the DEP until June the following year. Last platoon in the Marines to not be issued digital cammies.

[Androidpk]

Ditto. Leaving is always going to be a big regret for me.

[Androidpk]

Yeah, mine was/is a shitbag, never served though.

[Gelston]

Yeah, mine was/is a shitbag, never served though.

Happens. I like it myself. Imagine if you were Douglas MacArthur son.

[Androidpk]

NO PRESSURE

Some of those generals have such a commanding presence. I was stoked when I met this guy.

http://i.imgur.com/6D5WvVF.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/6D5WvVF.jpg)

[Gelston]

NO PRESSURE
Especially since MacArthur's dad was also pretty badass.

[Wrathbringer]

Iraq was on a good path. Then... we elected Obama.

6 years later... You see what we have.

Also, all those people that say "well we should have never been there", as politicians are fond of doing, need to realize something. If you bash a guy for years, then take his job saying you'll do it better.... YOU made that choice to assume that responsibility. So it is on your head. Obama just makes decisions based on his limited cognitive abilities. I think he truly believes, he can just say something in a speech, and it magically happens.

"I'm going to end the war in Iraq!".... Well he did and that is all fine, but that doesn't mean you leave the fucking country completely, forget about it, and do not have any interaction with it at all. There is a thing called diplomacy, SOFA agreements (which he didn't try to get at all-lip service), and providing military advisors to ensure our interests are maintained. He has no concept of the consistent attention that such endeavors requires.

Obama has literally thrown away all the work that was put into Iraq, tossing the Middle East into turmoil. When we were in Iraq, you hardly heard of any protests, uprisings, overthrow of governments while we had a presence there. Obama pulls us out and says screw it and Islamic Fundamentalism is spreading like wildfire... because of his decisions, we are going to be screwed in 20 years. I actually would not be surprised if Israel gets overrun, or someone tries in the next 10-15 years.

Easily the worst president since fdr. Pick another winner, America.

[Parkbandit]

Obama's only option is to have Pajama Boy mount a hashtag offensive.

It's been so effective though!

[Latrinsorm]

All I'll say is that certain people were happy to insist that our leaving Iraq was really because of Bush, Obama was just following along with the deal he made. The most recent such statement I can find is c/o Jarvan (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?88598-Government-Monitors-from-the-FCC-in-newsrooms&p=1635501#post1635501) on Feb 23rd of this year. I think this shows us two things: just how rapidly the situation in Iraq has deteriorated, and just how rapidly partisans can forget what they said.

[Methais]

At this point I don't know what we can do. They wanted us out of there so we left so...I dunno.

Send all of our illegal immigrants over.

Once they get a taste of tacos, the conflict will end.

[Methais]

I can easily see Israel attacked in a major fashion at some point in the next decade. I hope it doesn't come to that as I can't see them going down without dropping nukes.

At any rate we still have other problematic areas.

Iran
China
Russia
North Korea
District of Columbia

Maybe it's time for another world war to shake things up.

Someone needs to design an international war based MMO, get world leaders hooked on it, and settle the world's problems with large scale PvP.

Or duels at the boulder.

[Androidpk]

All I'll say is that certain people were happy to insist that our leaving Iraq was really because of Bush, Obama was just following along with the deal he made. The most recent such statement I can find is c/o Jarvan (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?88598-Government-Monitors-from-the-FCC-in-newsrooms&p=1635501#post1635501) on Feb 23rd of this year. I think this shows us two things: just how rapidly the situation in Iraq has deteriorated, and just how rapidly partisans can forget what they said.

I think it is more important to realize that international politics is incredibly complex. Especially when it involves cultures that go together like oil and water.

[Dwaar]

Also, where did Dwaar come from? We don't get a lot of new posters that aren't straight up trolls, but he doesn't seem like one.

Why do you all keep thinking I'm a troll!! You all are a bunch of paranoid SOB's. :)

I've played off and on for years, currently on an off cycle (usually year or two off, then couple months on). Figured I'd join the boards and chit chat when I have some time.

[Methais]

Why do you all keep thinking I'm a troll!! You all are a bunch of paranoid SOB's. :)

I've played off and on for years, currently on an off cycle (usually year or two off, then couple months on). Figured I'd join the boards and chit chat when I have some time.

We've recently been informed that anyone who wasn't playing during the ICE age is a noob, just for the record.

[Dwaar]

We've recently been informed that anyone who wasn't playing during the ICE age is a noob, just for the record.

Damn... cause I was originally an AOL baby :( . Guess by that definition, I would be a troll then.

[Taernath]

Why do you all keep thinking I'm a troll!! You all are a bunch of paranoid SOB's. :)

I've played off and on for years, currently on an off cycle (usually year or two off, then couple months on). Figured I'd join the boards and chit chat when I have some time.

An escaped mental patient has been creating sockpuppet accounts on the board for the last few months.

[Tenlaar]

Why do you all keep thinking I'm a troll!! You all are a bunch of paranoid SOB's. :)

Well, a handful of your first posts were awful twatty and borderline trollish. It looked like you were just getting a slow start!

[Dwaar]

An escaped mental patient has been creating sockpuppet accounts on the board for the last few months.

http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/000079651/profiles_SockPuppet41_5206_826179_xlarge.png

Hmmm.. not sure how to just have the picture posted, so had to do a link.

[Dwaar]

Well, a handful of your first posts were awful twatty and borderline trollish. It looked like you were just getting a slow start!

I'll only ever respond with an offensive or "troll" type response if someone starts it. Can't stand people that think they can just say whatever crap they want, without repercussions. I'll definitely try to watch my tone to avoid that perception though. Thanks for the heads up.

[Tenlaar]

Oh, there's nothing wrong with twatty or trollish, there is a lot of that floating around. It's just when that's the introduction to a new poster that people make the assumption that you're just here to be annoying for a few days (or weeks) until you get tired of it.

[Jeril]

We've recently been informed that anyone who wasn't playing during the ICE age is a noob, just for the record.

I'm a n00b and damn proud of it! What's your point?!?!

[Methais]

Damn... cause I was originally an AOL baby :( . Guess by that definition, I would be a troll then.

It's ok, the guy that informed us that we're all noobs is also an AOL baby.

[Dendum]

Last platoon in the Marines to not be issued digital cammies.
edit
never mind misread that

[Androidpk]

It's ok, the guy that informed us that we're all noobs is also an AOL baby.

But he rubbed Thalior's staff, so at least he has that going for him, which is nice.

[Allereli]

But he rubbed Thalior's staff, so at least he has that going for him, which is nice.

I rubbed Thalior's other staff

[Androidpk]

Did you get anything out of it?*




*tisket style innuendo (tm)

[ClydeR]

Before this becomes a political issue and the lines get drawn for no good reason at all. The recent Iraq flare up

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/insurgents-in-northern-iraq-push-toward-major-oil-installations/2014/06/11/3983dd22-f162-11e3-914c-1fbd0614e2d4_story.html

Should we start bombing? Limited aid like we already do? Just let them deal with, and potentially have another government in power?

I won't have enough information to make the right decision until Obama announces his plan.

[ClydeR]

I don't know very much about ISIS either.

Aren't they the same rebels that McCain met with in Syria when McCain said the U.S. should start sending them arms?

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/09/20/324957/mccain-syria-rebels-not-extremists/

[Dwaar]

Aren't they the same rebels that McCain met with in Syria when McCain said the U.S. should start sending them arms?

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/09/20/324957/mccain-syria-rebels-not-extremists/

Syria, going on 3 years now, began as a Nationalistic movement to displace Assad. McCain wanted to support those groups. Due to Obama's desire to not do a thing, it has morphed due to outside groups coming in. The ISIS/ISIL has evolved as an off shoot of Al-Qaeda, with the intent of taking Syrian and Iraqi land to build a Sunni led Islamic Nation.

[Dwaar]

I won't have enough information to make the right decision until Obama announces his plan.

Odd... we wouldn't have to do a thing, if Obama had left 10-15k troops in Iraq to support the Government and ensure the continued development of the country. As it stands, that country is now lost, unless something very drastic occurs.

[Dwaar]

How this is developing (and I'm trying to anticipate 10-30 years out), I really wonder how this Nation would react if there was another World War. I used to think we as a Nation would be all in and support the effort and understand what was at stake. Now, with the short attention, instant gratification, social media consumed Nation as we are... with a definite (at least in the Media) socialist leanings.... I'm really not to sure.

[Warriorbird]

Odd... we wouldn't have to do a thing, if Obama had left 10-15k troops in Iraq to support the Government and ensure the continued development of the country. As it stands, that country is now lost, unless something very drastic occurs.

We have an army, not a nation building squad. It was doomed from the start.

[Androidpk]

I'm still confused about the new Iraqi army. How are they getting pushed back so fast?

[Latrinsorm]

Odd... we wouldn't have to do a thing, if Obama had left 10-15k troops in Iraq to support the Government and ensure the continued development of the country. As it stands, that country is now lost, unless something very drastic occurs.Then again, wouldn't leaving that many troops in the country against the express wishes of that government have been a very drastic move to begin with?

[Androidpk]

We have an army, not a nation building squad. It was doomed from the start.

Hey now, don't discount our nation building corporations so quickly. They work hard for those multibillion dollar, no bid contracts!

[Androidpk]

Then again, wouldn't leaving that many troops in the country against the express wishes of that government have been a very drastic move to begin with?

Probably no more drastic than violating a nation's sovereignty with unauthorized drone strikes that result in dead citizens.

[Dwaar]

We have an army, not a nation building squad. It was doomed from the start.

You're right.. that's why Europe, Japan, South Korea, Kosovo, are all awash in bloodshed right now. Oh wait.

[Latrinsorm]

How this is developing (and I'm trying to anticipate 10-30 years out), I really wonder how this Nation would react if there was another World War. I used to think we as a Nation would be all in and support the effort and understand what was at stake. Now, with the short attention, instant gratification, social media consumed Nation as we are... with a definite (at least in the Media) socialist leanings.... I'm really not to sure.Socialism is all about internationalism. That's why Hitler felt the need to specify that his were national socialists only. The sticking point for socialists is not war but the type of war - imperialist wars bad, proletarian wars good. Islam of course predates Marxism, and has at times been vigorously imperialist and vigorously anti-imperialist. I would guess that socialists would not strongly support America barging into the Middle East and wrecking up the place, echoing their position during World War 2.

[Warriorbird]

You're right.. that's why Europe, Japan, South Korea, Kosovo, are all awash in bloodshed right now. Oh wait.

Let's think about what's different about Europe and Japan. Let's think about how we failed Korea. And let's think about how well Kosovo is actually doing for a moment. Then we can get back to platitudes.

[Latrinsorm]

Probably no more drastic than violating a nation's sovereignty with unauthorized drone strikes that result in dead citizens.Come on, man. Drone strikes vs. 30,000 boots on the ground? It's no contest, and when you see how justifiably upset they are about the drone part we clearly wouldn't even have had the 2 years of peace we did.

[Dwaar]

Socialism is all about internationalism. That's why Hitler felt the need to specify that his were national socialists only. The sticking point for socialists is not war but the type of war - imperialist wars bad, proletarian wars good. Islam of course predates Marxism, and has at times been vigorously imperialist and vigorously anti-imperialist. I would guess that socialists would not strongly support America barging into the Middle East and wrecking up the place, echoing their position during World War 2.

Reading this... I think you just made the case for not electing a Socialist leaning politician ever again. If they don't understand the geo-political ramifications, and sometimes necessary actions of intervention, then they should probably not run a country. Because a lack of pro-active participation, creates a void, which will be filled. As we shrink, so shall something expand. And I really don't think people would like what they find at the end of that road.

[Androidpk]

Reading this... I think you just made the case for not electing a Socialist leaning politician ever again. If they don't understand the geo-political ramifications, and sometimes necessary actions of intervention, then they should probably not run a country. Because a lack of pro-active participation, creates a void, which will be filled. As we shrink, so shall something expand. And I really don't think people would like what they find at the end of that road.

That's what's going on right now with Russia and China.

[Dwaar]

Let's think about what's different about Europe and Japan. Let's think about how we failed Korea. And let's think about how well Kosovo is actually doing for a moment. Then we can get back to platitudes.

Lets look at base facts:

Europe - getting overran and dominated - America intervenes, maintains its presence there for the past 70 years. Region quite stable.
Japan - was overrunning the Pacific and dominating - America intervenes, maintains its presence there for the past 70 years. Region quite stable.
Korea - communism overrunning the whole Nation - America intervenes, maintains its presence there. Region relatively stable. The South is doing fantastic (where our troops happen to be).
Kosovo - mass genocide occurring - America intervenes, maintains its presence there (declining steadily over the past years). Region relatively stable - definitely some issues still, but not mass chaos.

Now... Iraq and Afghanistan... Iraq was "stable" and only getting better. Then the announcement we were pulling all of our forces out. Our full forces pull out, now look what we have. Afghanistan... Same thing is going to occur.

In another 10-15 years, or sooner, when a mass attack occurs on our homeland again... people will be screaming why! why!

[Androidpk]

Let's think about what's different about Europe and Japan. Let's think about how we failed Korea. And let's think about how well Kosovo is actually doing for a moment. Then we can get back to platitudes.

To be fair we only failed 50% of Korea. South Korea I would consider a great success.

[Warriorbird]

That's what's going on right now with Russia and China.

Given you and Dwaar's last two posts we clearly can't allow Libertarians to have charge of the country either. Who stood against World War 1 and 2?

In addition, two of the most socialist Presidents got us through both of those wars, Latrin.

[Androidpk]

Given you and Dwaar's last two posts we clearly can't allow Libertarians to have charge of the country either. Who stood against World War 1 and 2?

In addition, two of the most socialist Presidents got us through both of those wars, Latrin.

You don't think those two countries are rapidly taking center stage in the world?

[Taernath]

Now... Iraq and Afghanistan... Iraq was "stable" and only getting better. Then the announcement we were pulling all of our forces out. Our full forces pull out, now look what we have. Afghanistan... Same thing is going to occur.

Assuming what you're saying is true, your solution would be to leave our troops there indefinitely? Iraq had over 8 years, and Afghanistan has had going on 13 to stand on their own. What's the cut off?

[Warriorbird]

You don't think those two countries are rapidly taking center stage in the world?

I do. I hardly think isolationism or an obsession with the Middle East are helping us with that though.

[Astray]

Pull out completely. Stop helping and funding these countries. The help offered is clearly not going to the intended areas. I know people are going to say that's unfair to the innocent civilians. It is, I will not argue that but I would rather have that money and those supplies potentially used at home. We waste billions on these countries and for what? Nothing is changing. Cut losses, leave them to their own domestic affairs.

[Dwaar]

Pull out completely. Stop helping and funding these countries. The help offered is clearly not going to the intended areas. I know people are going to say that's unfair to the innocent civilians. It is, I will not argue that but I would rather have that money and those supplies potentially used at home. We waste billions on these countries and for what? Nothing is changing. Cut losses, leave them to their own domestic affairs.

"leave them to their own domestic affairs"... and there is the divide in varying points of view. This is not a "domestic affair".

[Dwaar]

Assuming what you're saying is true, your solution would be to leave our troops there indefinitely? Iraq had over 8 years, and Afghanistan has had going on 13 to stand on their own. What's the cut off?

Your right, why can't a Nation fully change it's character in 8 years. Or 13? I mean it's 13 whole years!! Why can't those people over there figure it out!

It usually takes a generation of participation to truly change the direction of a Nation. Let the ones we started fighting die off and the younger generation, who for years we have supported and promoted their ability to establish themselves.

Read up to my earlier post. What do you think would have happened if we just left Europe, Japan, Kosovo, South Korea? Yes... sometimes it does require longer than 8 or 13 years. That is not very long. People think it is, but it's hardly a blip in history when trying to help the world.

[Androidpk]

I do. I hardly think isolationism or an obsession with the Middle East are helping us with that though.
I agre. Both of those options are extreme and have proven not to work.

[Astray]

"leave them to their own domestic affairs"... and there is the divide in varying points of view. This is not a "domestic affair".

Unfortunately.

[Androidpk]

Your right, why can't a Nation fully change it's character in 8 years. Or 13? I mean it's 13 whole years!! Why can't those people over there figure it out!

It usually takes a generation of participation to truly change the direction of a Nation. Let the ones we started fighting die off and the younger generation, who for years we have supported and promoted their ability to establish themselves.

Read up to my earlier post. What do you think would have happened if we just left Europe, Japan, Kosovo, South Korea? Yes... sometimes it does require longer than 8 or 13 years. That is not very long. People think it is, but it's hardly a blip in history when trying to help the world.

Helping other countries, if done correctly, is a boon to everyone. My problem is the seemingly neglect of our own country. I think we face a laundry list of issues that for the most part we aren't addressing or if we are we're going about it the wrong way. Take broadband infrastructure for example. Fiber optic communications is rapidly becoming necessary and we are quickly falling behind in the world because we have settled to allow a couple of corporations to have complete control over it. We should have fiber everywhere. We've given these corporations hundreds of millions of dollars and they took that money and screwed us. You would think there would be stricter laws against all of this incestual revolving door bullshit but money is king these days and apparently a form of free speech. We need to get our house in order. I think it's possible to do that and maintain a healthy international position at the same time.

[Dwaar]

Helping other countries, if done correctly, is a boon to everyone. My problem is the seemingly neglect of our own country. I think we face a laundry list of issues that for the most part we aren't addressing or if we are we're going about it the wrong way. Take broadband infrastructure for example. Fiber optic communications is rapidly becoming necessary and we are quickly falling behind in the world because we have settled to allow a couple of corporations to have complete control over it. We should have fiber everywhere. We've given these corporations hundreds of millions of dollars and they took that money and screwed us. You would think there would be stricter laws against all of this incestual revolving door bullshit but money is king these days and apparently a form of free speech. We need to get our house in order. I think it's possible to do that and maintain a healthy international position at the same time.

PK.. I couldn't agree more. The thing about being President, being part of the Government... is that it requires you to do both, at the same time. This isn't chew bubblegum or walk... it's chew bubblegum and walk.

Those that choose to lead our Nation need to realize that they will have to manage our Domestic issues, as well as our International ones. You can't get the job you campaigned for, then complain, or ignore something just because it's hard and requires critically tough decisions.

I have faith though... we'll turn it around. Hopefully. Maybe. Well, we'll see.

[Androidpk]

The darkest hour of all is the hour before day.

[Taernath]

Your right, why can't a Nation fully change it's character in 8 years. Or 13? I mean it's 13 whole years!! Why can't those people over there figure it out!

It usually takes a generation of participation to truly change the direction of a Nation. Let the ones we started fighting die off and the younger generation, who for years we have supported and promoted their ability to establish themselves.

Read up to my earlier post. What do you think would have happened if we just left Europe, Japan, Kosovo, South Korea? Yes... sometimes it does require longer than 8 or 13 years. That is not very long. People think it is, but it's hardly a blip in history when trying to help the world.

We're facing a completely different situation in the Middle East compared to anything we've done in Europe. The closest we had to an insurgency was Vietnam, and we all saw how our nation building efforts played out over there. I agree that asking a nation to change it's character in 13 years is too much, but Afghanistan or Iraq will never be another Germany no matter how much money or support we give them.

[~Rocktar~]

Nice stroll down memory lane for you folks, thank you for your service, no matter how fucked up your opinions or politics may be. My father was army, stupidest decision I ever made and one of 2 I will regret was not doing some kind of military service despite being heavily recruited by all branches. Important decision given to you when you are the stupidest you will ever be in your life, anyways.

Funny anecdote, I work with a woman who was a marine in Desert Storm. She was the subject of a bit of training about going to Muslim countries that you may or may not remember. The part about don't make deals with people there that you don't or can't keep and don't joke about selling women. While in Saudi, some guys in her unit offered her up to a Saudi Colonel or some such for 2 cases of beer and a camel. He showed up 2 days later at dusk demanding they turn her over to him as they had shook on it. Crap happened and she was confined to barracks. Her Lt woke her in the middle of the night along with the guys that had "sold" her and told her to pack, she had something like 15 min. and handed her a packet of papers. She was airborn in 20 minutes and to this day is not allowed to travel to Saudi and a whole host of other countries with extradition to them.

I know the story is in the training for deployment at least in the Marines because my nephew, a marine, went to Afghanistan and it was part of his training. He got home in one piece being a tank mechanic and driving one of the IED disarming trucks with the arm and claw. He did get blown up a few times and one was so extreme that the truck nearly rolled. He had a serious concussion from the blast and shake and bake as he put it inside the truck. He is leaving the marines now because of short term memory problems relating to that injury. Sucks to see the price paid for other's freedom wasted by the inept do nothing Commander in Grief.

I hope someone does something to Israel in short order a whole lot of the world would get a wakeup call cause I am pretty sure with Syria in pieces, no one has the organization or skill to do anything but throw a meat horde at them. Horrible as that would be, the world needs the wakeup call that radical Islam and these fucknuts need to be made worm food world wide, there is no cure. Just like there was no cure for high level Nazis and most of the SS or Pol Pot and a multitude of other evil, sick pieces of refuse.

[Taernath]

Funny anecdote, I work with a woman who was a marine in Desert Storm. She was the subject of a bit of training about going to Muslim countries that you may or may not remember. The part about don't make deals with people there that you don't or can't keep and don't joke about selling women. While in Saudi, some guys in her unit offered her up to a Saudi Colonel or some such for 2 cases of beer and a camel. He showed up 2 days later at dusk demanding they turn her over to him as they had shook on it. Crap happened and she was confined to barracks. Her Lt woke her in the middle of the night along with the guys that had "sold" her and told her to pack, she had something like 15 min. and handed her a packet of papers. She was airborn in 20 minutes and to this day is not allowed to travel to Saudi and a whole host of other countries with extradition to them.

Don't believe it.

[Androidpk]

I remember my culture training before I left and it was pretty fascinating stuff. One thing they mentioned was to not show them the soles of your feet/boots as they find it offensive. So a 5 days before I'm set to leave the US I come down with a nasty tonsil infection. The doctor I saw at Langley said it would be bad for me to deploy but not leaving wasn't an option so they gave me a shot of steroids and sent me on my way. Landed in country on a sasturday. By sunday I was being rushed to a hospital in Doha for emergency surgery. It was either that or they were going to fly me to Germany and that was out of the question as well. When I arrived at the hospital I was still in my BDUs and boots and the nurse had me sit down on a bed and told me to put my feet up, which made me a little nervous but she just laughed and said don't worry, just put your feet up.

[Taernath]

Worst thing was Inshalla, 'if God wills it'.

"Hey, we want to run a training program for your police tomorrow. Is 9 AM ok?"
"Inshalla".
Nobody shows.

[Gelston]

How this is developing (and I'm trying to anticipate 10-30 years out), I really wonder how this Nation would react if there was another World War. I used to think we as a Nation would be all in and support the effort and understand what was at stake. Now, with the short attention, instant gratification, social media consumed Nation as we are... with a definite (at least in the Media) socialist leanings.... I'm really not to sure.

I think we'd react the same as they did in the 40s. Look right after 9/11... For a short time we were all very united. Even during WW2, people expressed doubts.

[Androidpk]

I think we'd react the same as they did in the 40s. Look right after 9/11... For a short time we were all very united. Even during WW2, people expressed doubts.

Yup, public perception and support can change really quickly, especially with a scared populace.

Gelston, you mentioned that the people over there don't want to stand up for themselves. Does that include the Kurdish peshmerga?

[Dwaar]

I think we'd react the same as they did in the 40s. Look right after 9/11... For a short time we were all very united. Even during WW2, people expressed doubts.

I really hope so Gelston. I like believing that we are a united, solid Nation. In war seems we are, in peace I just wish we were more so. :)

[Androidpk]

Complacency leads to contempt. Contempt leads to hate. Hate leads to Huffington Post. Don't be a Huffington Post.

[Dendum]

"leave them to their own domestic affairs"... and there is the divide in varying points of view. This is not a "domestic affair".

I disagree with that, this faction currently marching on the capital isn't aligned politically with Iran, it isn't even aligned directly, please notice I said directly, with Al-Qaeda it is a Sunni force marching on a Shiite held position. It probably is a result of us mucking around in that country and killing Saddam, but it is probably also a result of an ineffective domestic policy by the current administration of Iraq.

What is happening is pretty much textbook for what was warned would happen without a boot on the neck of a population, or an extremely inclusive government in Baghdad, with three distinct and hostile ethnic groups in one country with no unifying cultural identity. The Kurds have taken some of the northern areas, the turks are pissed at that, the Sunni have taken areas with large Sunni populations and the Shiite have held the areas they are most numerous in.

[Wrathbringer]

Nice stroll down memory lane for you folks, thank you for your service, no matter how fucked up your opinions or politics may be. My father was army, stupidest decision I ever made and one of 2 I will regret was not doing some kind of military service despite being heavily recruited by all branches. Important decision given to you when you are the stupidest you will ever be in your life, anyways.


Newsflash: Everyone dumb enough to let themselves be heavily recruited is heavily recruited. U.S. bullet sponge is a crap job w/little pay that any imbecile can fill. If it weren't for sheer volume of recruiting and the over arching stupidity and naivety of our high school kids, we wouldn't have a military. Lol @ regretting that you didn't waste your life.

[Androidpk]

Newsflash: Everyone dumb enough to let themselves be heavily recruited is heavily recruited. U.S. bullet sponge is a crap job w/little pay that any imbecile can fill. If it weren't for sheer volume of recruiting and the over arching stupidity and naivety of our high school kids, we wouldn't have a military. Lol @ regretting that you didn't waste your life.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo

[Parkbandit]

LOLOLOL


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOcPCrGRs6k

[Methais]

I think we'd react the same as they did in the 40s. Look right after 9/11... For a short time we were all very united. Even during WW2, people expressed doubts.

Pretty sure it would really depend on if people's internet was affected.

If there was another world war today, most people would just tweet/raid/blog through it as if it were just another regular day.

[Latrinsorm]

Reading this... I think you just made the case for not electing a Socialist leaning politician ever again. If they don't understand the geo-political ramifications, and sometimes necessary actions of intervention, then they should probably not run a country. Because a lack of pro-active participation, creates a void, which will be filled. As we shrink, so shall something expand. And I really don't think people would like what they find at the end of that road.I have no idea how you got that from what I wrote. As you yourself say, intervention is only sometimes necessary. Socialism disagreeing with what you decide are the necessary times does not mean that socialism has none of its own. Again, it is an inherently internationalist philosophy. You can call the Soviet Union a lot of things, but isolationist sure as heck isn't one.
Now... Iraq and Afghanistan... Iraq was "stable" and only getting better. Then the announcement we were pulling all of our forces out. Our full forces pull out, now look what we have.The announcement was made in December 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement).
In addition, two of the most socialist Presidents got us through both of those wars, Latrin.FDR handled the war in a very socialist way. Defend the proletariat from imperialist aggressors, then respect their sovereignty (i.e. leave). This drew grudging support from American socialists. Ironically they were more concerned with the Soviet Union's behavior than ours.

Iraq's very existence as a country is a legacy of imperialism, getting in the way of their disintegration (part unite with Syria, part be Kurdistan, part remain independent) is not something a socialist would do.

[Androidpk]

Pretty sure it would really depend on if people's internet was affected.

If there was another world war today, most people would just tweet/raid/blog through it as if it were just another regular day.

#teamamerica #winning

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t1.0-9/10462874_10152811856306729_2009325217754432687_n.j pg

[Atlanteax]

Does Iran have anything to do with ISIS?

Iran wants a Iraq-puppet-state.

The ISIS significantly impairs this (as the Iraq gov't is dominated by Shia, which is supported by Iran)

Further, if the kurdish peshmerga has to get involved to restore order in northern Iraq, it further strengthens their autonomy (which Iran does not want to happen).

[Atlanteax]

Gelston, you mentioned that the people over there don't want to stand up for themselves. Does that include the Kurdish peshmerga?

Kurdish peshmerga is competent.

But they will not get involved in 'liberating' Mosul unless Baghdad is willing to recognize 'Kurdish control'.

Baghdad has not (yet) asked the Kurdish peshmerga to help, because they know that will be the price.

With Mosul, will be very easy for the Kurds to 'control' the oil wealth of the north.

[Androidpk]

Looks like they control Kirkuk now.

[Androidpk]

Iraqi Kurdistan oil is not an issue. Sorani Kurds have been represented by their cooperative energy investments streaming out of northern Iraq since at least 2005. Western/kurdish investment are protected by Nato troops in Erbil, in fact the american village and consulate are currently not under evacuation orders...and I cant say the same for Baghdad. You can count on Nato partners to defend the north. PricewaterhouseCooper, SterGroup, Tarinnet, Hardam, Spectrum, Petrofac, Caltec, Eclipse, Vance, Petoil, Petroquest, Dogan Energy, Lufthansa and Austrian airlines all represent significant Nato investment in Iraqi Kurdistan.

...Right now it looks like Turkish, Kurdish and suprisingly, Iranian cooperation which will repel the the ISIL troops. If ISIL continues to slaughter Shiites, we will be hearing more from Iran


I love it when you talk dirty.

[Atlanteax]

Looks like they control Kirkuk now.


Iraq: Kurdish Forces In Control Of Kirkuk
Kurdish forces are in control of Kirkuk after the Iraqi army abandoned its posts, a Kurdish spokesman said June 12, Reuters reported.

Yep...

[Atlanteax]

Iraqi Kurdistan oil is not an issue. Sorani Kurds have been represented by their cooperative energy investments streaming out of northern Iraq since at least 2005. Western/kurdish investment are protected by Nato troops in Erbil,


Iraq: Rosneft Bought Kurdish Oil, Trade Sources Say
Russian energy company Rosneft bought Kurdish oil for a German refinery it co-owns with BP despite Baghdad's ban on independent oil sales by the Kurdistan Regional Government, trading sources said, World Bulletin reported June 12

Heh, even Russia ignores the Iraqi gov't in Baghdad.

[Latrinsorm]

At what point do we assume the Iraqi army is in on the rebellion? Glorious Revolution, Mesopotamian style.

[Androidpk]

"Sarge, me tanks were losing the battle. Should we retreat?"

"Nay soldier, not a retreat, err, a flanking maneuver might be in order though"

[Latrinsorm]

I read that guide when I was 5 years old, and I could never understand who let tanks be used in GS. That's why to this day I have such a firm respect for punctuation.

[Vorpos]

Heh, even Russia ignores the Iraqi gov't in Baghdad.

Russia isn't ignoring anything. They'll use Iran to conquer Iraq after American troops did all the work.

[Tgo01]

Looks like Iran is willing to work with the US about the situation in Iraq. (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/06/13/alarmed-by-unrest-in-iraq-iran-open-to-shared-role-with-us-ira/20912129/?icid=maing-grid7|responsive|dl3|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D488368)

This proves without a doubt that Obama is a Muslim terrorist hell bent on destroying the US.

Obama! Obama! Obama!

[ClydeR]

Syria, going on 3 years now, began as a Nationalistic movement to displace Assad. McCain wanted to support those groups. Due to Obama's desire to not do a thing, it has morphed due to outside groups coming in. The ISIS/ISIL has evolved as an off shoot of Al-Qaeda, with the intent of taking Syrian and Iraqi land to build a Sunni led Islamic Nation.

Yes, but is ISIS the same rebels McCain met with in Syria and said we should arm?

Picture it, Memorial Day 2013..


Sen. John McCain Monday became the highest-ranking U.S. official to enter Syria since the bloody civil war there began more than two years ago, The Daily Beast has learned.

McCain, one of the fiercest critics of the Obama administration’s Syria policy, made the unannounced visit across the Turkey-Syria border with Gen. Salem Idris, the leader of the Supreme Military Council of the Free Syrian Army. He stayed in the country for several hours before returning to Turkey. Both in Syria and Turkey, McCain and Idris met with assembled leaders of Free Syrian Army units that traveled from around the country to see the U.S. senator. Inside those meetings, rebel leaders called on the United States to step up its support to the Syrian armed opposition and provide them with heavy weapons, a no-fly zone, and airstrikes on the Syrian regime and the forces of Hezbollah, which is increasingly active in Syria.

More... (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/27/exclusive-john-mccain-slips-across-border-into-syria-meets-with-rebels.html)

McCain wanted to arm the groups resisting Hezbollah. Wasn't ISIS the group resisting Hezbollah?




WASHINGTON — Syrian rebels battling the forces of President Bashar Assad must receive ammunition and heavy weapons to counter the regime's tanks and aircraft or it will be impossible for them to prevail, Sen. John McCain said days after he quietly slipped into Syria to meet with the opposition.

More... (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/31/john-mccain-syrian-rebels_n_3368036.html)

[Wrathbringer]

Looks like Iran is willing to work with the US about the situation in Iraq. (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/06/13/alarmed-by-unrest-in-iraq-iran-open-to-shared-role-with-us-ira/20912129/?icid=maing-grid7|responsive|dl3|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D488368)

This proves without a doubt that Obama is a Muslim terrorist hell bent on destroying the US.

Obama! Obama! Obama!

Obummer is a terrorist.

[Methais]

And a homo.

[Parkbandit]

If Obama would just draw a red line, this shit would be solved.

#REDLINE

[~Rocktar~]

Newsflash: Everyone dumb enough to let themselves be heavily recruited is heavily recruited. U.S. bullet sponge is a crap job w/little pay that any imbecile can fill. If it weren't for sheer volume of recruiting and the over arching stupidity and naivety of our high school kids, we wouldn't have a military. Lol @ regretting that you didn't waste your life.

In 86, it wasn't so much the case and with my scores and the positions they wanted to put me in, I would not have been a bullet sponge. Now the idea of being reactor shielding or living in a hole sharing a bunk with a MIRV didn't much appeal to me either. I doubt that a stint at that time would have been so horrible as I would have been able to go into any service through college and be an officer and end with no student loan debt.

[Tgo01]

Uh-oh. (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/06/14/hagel-orders-us-aircraft-carrier-to-persian-gulf/20912607/?icid=maing-grid7|responsive|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D488689)


(Reuters) - U.S. Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel ordered an aircraft carrier moved into the Gulf on Saturday, readying it in case Washington decides to pursue a military option after insurgents overwhelmed a string of Iraqi cities this week and threatened Baghdad.

"The order will provide the Commander-in-Chief additional flexibility should military options be required to protect American lives, citizens and interests in Iraq," the Pentagon said in a statement.

The carrier USS George H.W. Bush, moving from the North Arabian Sea, will be accompanied by the guided-missile cruiser USS Philippine Sea and the guided-missile destroyer USS Truxtun, the statement said. It added the ships were expected to complete their transit into the Gulf later on Saturday.

President Barack Obama said on Friday he needed several days to determine how the United States would help Iraq deal with the insurgency. But he ruled out sending U.S. troops back into combat and said any intervention would be contingent on Iraqi leaders becoming more involved.

The Pentagon is preparing a range of options for Obama, including air strikes. Such actions would be aimed at helping Iraq counter militants of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL.[ID:nL2N0OU0XR]

The USS George H.W. Bush is a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier, the largest warships in the world, according to the U.S. Navy. The ships are powered by two nuclear reactors and can carry a crew of about 6,000 people.

Can you imagine if we started attacking Iraq? So I guess we could say Bush got us out of Iraq and Obama got us back in Iraq.

I wonder how Democrats will spin this one if we do end up attacking Iraq.

[Back]

Here is what we should do. Leave them to it. It's religious, its old, it's theirs.

[Dendum]

Uh-oh. (http://www.aol.com/article/2014/06/14/hagel-orders-us-aircraft-carrier-to-persian-gulf/20912607/?icid=maing-grid7|responsive|dl1|sec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D488689)


I wonder how Democrats will spin this one if we do end up attacking Iraq.

The public has a distinction in perception between drone strikes and other forms of armed involvement, hence no one saying "get out of pakistan" (Except maybe the people of Pakistan) even though we were bombing the hell out of that place for years.

[Androidpk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIyASr6Mco4

[Wrathbringer]

Here is what we should do. Leave them to it. It's religious, its old, it's theirs.

Yep.

[Parkbandit]

Here is what we should do. Leave them to it. It's religious, its old, it's theirs.

Wait... so your reasoning with illegal aliens is that we should just do away with borders because it's not their fault they weren't born in the US, but with this, we should leave them alone because "it's theirs"?

[Warriorbird]

Wait... so your reasoning with illegal aliens is that we should just do away with borders because it's not their fault they weren't born in the US, but with this, we should leave them alone because "it's theirs"?

It's cool how you get really upset at people declaring what others are saying except when you do it.

[~Rocktar~]

http://youtu.be/aCbfMkh940Q

[Back]

Wait... so your reasoning with illegal aliens is that we should just do away with borders because it's not their fault they weren't born in the US, but with this, we should leave them alone because "it's theirs"?

I fail to see how the two are similar in any way.

[Wrathbringer]

I fail.

Fixed

[Back]

Fixed

hur hur

[Thondalar]

This is what happens when you try to turn a war into a humanitarian mission.

The only way to do it is to completely and utterly annihilate your opponent.

If you want to make friends and help them pick up the pieces afterwards, that's perfectly fine. But there cannot be any question about who is in charge.


Edit: and there damn sure can't be any announced timelines for when you're leaving. Remember when people said "oh, that's nice, the insurgents will just sit back and bide their time until we leave, then take the country over again anyway" and everyone on the left laughed?

Yeah, me too.

[Latrinsorm]

This is what happens when you try to turn a war into a humanitarian mission.

The only way to do it is to completely and utterly annihilate your opponent.

If you want to make friends and help them pick up the pieces afterwards, that's perfectly fine. But there cannot be any question about who is in charge.


Edit: and there damn sure can't be any announced timelines for when you're leaving. Remember when people said "oh, that's nice, the insurgents will just sit back and bide their time until we leave, then take the country over again anyway" and everyone on the left laughed?

Yeah, me too.MacArthur apparently had no problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco) doing it. Also, what kept them? We left in December 2011, it's June 2014. Did the insurgents want to make sure they saw all of How I Met Your Mother before taking over the country? I suppose there's no accounting for taste, but still.

[Tgo01]

Also, what kept them? We left in December 2011, it's June 2014.

They had to get directions. Not everyone has GPS, wise guy.

[Androidpk]

MacArthur apparently had no problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco) doing it. Also, what kept them? We left in December 2011, it's June 2014. Did the insurgents want to make sure they saw all of How I Met Your Mother before taking over the country? I suppose there's no accounting for taste, but still.

Apples and oranges.

[Wrathbringer]

They had to get directions. Not everyone has GPS, wise guy.

It takes time to import and stockpile weapons and bombs from Iran, too.

[Parkbandit]

It's cool how you get really upset at people declaring what others are saying except when you do it.

I don't get upset over a forum. Project much?

And where am I declaring what others are saying.. since he's stated both?

What's it like to go through life being wrong at almost everything?

[Parkbandit]

I fail to see how the two are similar in any way.

That is completely understandable. Hypocrites rarely do. I'll dumb it down:

Borders are what a country uses to determine what is theirs and what isn't. You are against borders when the discussion is about illegal aliens. You are for them when the discussion is about a middle east country you don't give a shit about.

[Back]

That is completely understandable. Hypocrites rarely do. I'll dumb it down:

Borders are what a country uses to determine what is theirs and what isn't. You are against borders when the discussion is about illegal aliens. You are for them when the discussion is about a middle east country you don't give a shit about.

I'll decide what I am for or against, thanks. I don't see how this is in any way comparable. And seriously, PB, you are the last person in the world to accuse other people of hypocrisy.

[Warriorbird]

I don't get upset over a forum. Project much?

And where am I declaring what others are saying.. since he's stated both?

What's it like to go through life being wrong at almost everything?

It's cool when the next post makes you wrong. You can try to blame it on me some more.

[Thondalar]

MacArthur apparently had no problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco) doing it.

Well of course he didn't. We dropped nuclear bombs on Japan, in case you somehow forgot that minor detail. They had no confusion about who was in charge.


Also, what kept them? We left in December 2011, it's June 2014. Did the insurgents want to make sure they saw all of How I Met Your Mother before taking over the country? I suppose there's no accounting for taste, but still.

Not sure when the last time you tried to take over a country was, but it's not exactly an overnight process. Hell, it took 10 years for even Hitler.

[Back]

Not sure when the last time you tried to take over a country was, but it's not exactly an overnight process. Hell, it took 10 years for even Hitler.

LOL. When was the last time you tried to take over a country, General Thondalar? That you reference Hitler is not supporting your (fictional) position.

ROFLCOPTER

[Methais]

Back is drunk again.

[Back]

Back is drunk again.

It's after 1am Saturday night/Sunday morning. I'm home safe. Sue me.

Still, I don't see how that matters when Thondalar said stupid shit.

[Methais]

It's after 1am Saturday night/Sunday morning. I'm home safe. Sue me.

Still, I don't see how that matters when Thondalar said stupid shit.

I didn't say being drunk was bad, even if you are drinking Zima and wine coolers.

It's just easy to tell when you're posting wasted.

[Back]

I didn't say being drunk was bad, even if you are drinking Zima and wine coolers.

It's just easy to tell when you're posting wasted.

Eh, not wasted. If I was wasted I'd be preaching peace on Earth. Stoner.

[Methais]

Eh, not wasted. If I was wasted I'd be preaching peace on Earth. Stoner.

It's after 1am Saturday night/Sunday morning. I'm home safe. Sue me.

[Back]

It's after 1am Saturday night/Sunday morning. I'm home safe. Sue me.

Peace on Earth.

[Androidpk]

It's after 1am Saturday night/Sunday morning. I'm home safe. Sue me.

Stoner!

[Methais]

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/David-Van-Driessen-Sings-For-Beavis-and-Butt-Head.gif

[Gelston]

I am kinda rooting for ISIS because Iran hates them. I was on a MiTT and trained these fuckers to the best of my ability. The were armed with the best weapons we could give them. Now Iran supports the Government we set up. Fuck you Iran, and fuck you Iraqis that we bleed and died for.

[Androidpk]

I always figured the threat to Iraq after US forces left would come from Iran. Republican Guard were making border crossings and causing some problems if I recall. I was at the Iraqi embassy in 2010 and got to speak with the deputy ambassador and asked if they were going to be able to guard against Iranian incursion and his answer want all that reassuring.

[Androidpk]

Peace on Earth.

Not in this lifetime.

[Parkbandit]

It's cool when the next post makes you wrong. You can try to blame it on me some more.

Did it?


Because the more people who want to be on our side makes our team stronger.


We have a moral obligation to extend the rights we expect for ourselves to others who seek a better life themselves. To turn people away from the opportunity to better their lives could be reasoned as immoral especially if turning them away means sending them back to a place that affords them less rights than we enjoy.


You know, not only does accepting immigrants help us economically, I might even go so far as to suggest that we are morally bound to accept people into this country who are seeking a better life than where they are from. To tell someone that they cannot enjoy freedoms that we believe everyone should have and tell them that they need to go back to the oppression that they are trying to escape from is sentencing another person whom we all supposedly believe are equal to a less equal situation than we say our own people should enjoy.


Eh, I'm not gonna stick around and argue it here since there's no way I'll change hearts or minds, but I say let's just open the fucking border already.



Agreed.

Every job I’ve ever had the immigrant workers worked the hardest and longest. If they want to work let them be legal and lets collect taxes.


I believe using these quotes, it's easy to understand why Backlash is suggesting open borders. Heck, even this guy agrees:


I think suggesting that all immigrants come here filled with love and we should love them all is some bullshit, Back. Truth be told, until we do drug legalization, open borders are a terrible idea.

[Warriorbird]

Did it?

I believe using these quotes, it's easy to understand why Backlash is suggesting open borders. Heck, even this guy agrees:

If only they were talking about the same thing this would've been a real accomplishment.

[Parkbandit]

If only they were talking about the same thing this would've been a real accomplishment.

Baby steps.. simple yes or no answers will suffice:

Do you agree that Backlash has/had the opinion that open borders would be a good thing?

[Warriorbird]

Baby steps.. simple yes or no answers will suffice:

Do you agree that Backlash has/had the opinion that open borders would be a good thing?

Baby steps. You decided the two things were the same. They're not.

[Dwaar]

Baby steps.. simple yes or no answers will suffice:

Do you agree that Backlash has/had the opinion that open borders would be a good thing?

Not sure... but just had this thought... Imagine, for those that support open borders....

Your home with a floor, a roof, and NO walls. Now keep it furnished, put in that nice tv, computer, everything that you have in your home is still there. But no walls.

Would you feel comfortable? Does everyone deserve the use of your things? When you go to work, is it okay for people to cross the border of your home and make themselves comfortable?

Possibly a bad analogy, but there is a reason for Nations to have sovereign borders, and ensure those are secure for a reason. It's not evil to want to ensure the safety of your citizens or their interests.

[Androidpk]

Ahh fuck. :(

http://ulstermanbooks.com/american-military-equipment-now-flying-al-qaeda-flag/

[Parkbandit]

Baby steps. You decided the two things were the same. They're not.

We need to make sure we are both on the same page. Step by step.

Yes or no: Do you agree that Backlash has/had the opinion that open borders would be a good thing?

[Warriorbird]

We need to make sure we are both on the same page. Step by step.

Yes or no: Do you agree that Backlash has/had the opinion that open borders would be a good thing?

We're clearly not. You thought two entirely different things were the same.

[Parkbandit]

We're clearly not. You thought two entirely different things were the same.

Well now your argument is changing. Your first post was that I was making up his position and now you are saying I'm comparing 2 different things. Those are two completely different things.

So do you want to just bow out gracefully or do you wish to continue the Stupid Parade (WB Patent Pending)

[Warriorbird]

Well now your argument is changing. Your first post was that I was making up his position and now you are saying I'm comparing 2 different things. Those are two completely different things.

So do you want to just bow out gracefully or do you wish to continue the Stupid Parade (WB Patent Pending)

Yawn. You declared his position on one thing was his position on another. Imagine how it'd be if I talked about your support for the death penalty meaning you opposed agricultural subsidies.

It'd be, wait for it, dumb. It was clearly just an attempt to get a dig on him for something else you've trolled him about rather than even discussing his actual opinion on the subject. You can do better.

[Parkbandit]

Yawn. You declared his position on one thing was his position on another. Imagine how it'd be if I talked about your support for the death penalty meaning you opposed agricultural subsidies.

It'd be, wait for it, dumb. It was clearly just an attempt to get a dig on him for something else you've trolled him about rather than even discussing his actual opinion on the subject. You can do better.

Ok, so indulge me for a moment and explain why I am comparing the two. In order to successfully do this requires both of us to clearly articulate where we stand. This can be best accomplished by answering a few simple yes or no questions. It does require your attention though, so at least try to just answer the posts with a "yes" or "no" answer.

Question #1: Do you agree that Backlash has/had the opinion that open borders would be a good thing?

Remember, your response should be ONLY a "YES" or a "NO".

[Back]

Well, it would be nice if one day there were no borders. But even I realize that time isn't now. We do need a border but more to keep out dangerous elements. People who are simply just looking for a better life should be welcomed. If we were able to give them that path there wouldn't be a need for them to sneak across. If anyone is still sneaking across then we would know there was ill intent.

[Wrathbringer]

Well, it would be nice if one day there were no borders. But even I realize that time isn't now. We do need a border but more to keep out dangerous elements. People who are simply just looking for a better life should be welcomed. If we were able to give them that path there wouldn't be a need for them to sneak across. If anyone is still sneaking across then we would know there was ill intent.

Thieves are just looking for a better life, too. Also, if by "dangerous elements" you mean "mexicans", I agree.

[Methais]

Well, it would be nice if one day there were no borders. But even I realize that time isn't now. We do need a border but more to keep out dangerous elements. People who are simply just looking for a better life should be welcomed. If we were able to give them that path there wouldn't be a need for them to sneak across. If anyone is still sneaking across then we would know there was ill intent.

Because it's simply not possible to immigrate here legally and all.

[Latrinsorm]

Well of course he didn't. We dropped nuclear bombs on Japan, in case you somehow forgot that minor detail. They had no confusion about who was in charge.I get you're being sarcastic, but it was actually a minor detail. We killed 200,000 with atom bombs (10% of whom were Korean conscripts), which is a horrific figure but still pales in comparison to the other 2,600,000 we (and our allies) killed. Eisenhower himself found the atomic bombings totally superfluous from a military perspective. Maybe you know more about the military than Eisenhower, but going on the evidence so far presented I'm going to lean towards not.
Not sure when the last time you tried to take over a country was, but it's not exactly an overnight process. Hell, it took 10 years for even Hitler.Ah, so a leader of ISIS was imprisoned after a coup attempt in 2012 or earlier? No? Hmm... well, can you cite any military offensive undertaken in Iraq prior to June of this year? No again? Well, unless you can present actual evidence beyond "um, it takes a long time to take over a country", I'm forced to conclude that the US withdrawal had no causal link with their activities whatsoever. Old Man Science is literally holding a gun to my head.

[Tgo01]

When was the cut off for when we could have blamed this on US withdrawal, Latrin?

[Latrinsorm]

The latest point at which Bush partisans were still arguing that the withdrawal of troops from Iraq was his doing and therefore to his credit. The latest I found from Jarvan was Feb 2014, there may be later ones.

[Androidpk]

Revealed: How Obama SET FREE the merciless terrorist warlord now leading the ISIS horde blazing a trail of destruction through Iraq

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2657231/Revealed-Obama-RELEASED-warlord-head-ISIS-extremist-army-five-years-ago.html

[Latrinsorm]

Revealed: How Obama SET FREE the merciless terrorist warlord now leading the ISIS horde blazing a trail of destruction through Iraq

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2657231/Revealed-Obama-RELEASED-warlord-head-ISIS-extremist-army-five-years-ago.html"We either arrested or killed a man of that name about half a dozen times, he is like a wraith who keeps reappearing, and I am not sure where fact and fiction meet."

Why did our so-called President test a top secret immortality serum on a foreign insurgent, and why won't he explicitly deny doing so? Where there's smoke, there's fire: Obummer has created an invincible horde of terrorists for the express purpose of implementing Shariah law in American kindergartens.

[Thondalar]

I get you're being sarcastic, but it was actually a minor detail. We killed 200,000 with atom bombs (10% of whom were Korean conscripts), which is a horrific figure but still pales in comparison to the other 2,600,000 we (and our allies) killed. Eisenhower himself found the atomic bombings totally superfluous from a military perspective. Maybe you know more about the military than Eisenhower, but going on the evidence so far presented I'm going to lean towards not.

You're joking, right?

Eisenhower felt we had already won and didn't need to use atomic bombs...that doesn't in any way diminish the statement that was made with their use.

Regardless, Eisenhower's feelings about it don't matter nearly as much as the Japanese Emperor's, who had this to say in his Capitulation Announcement only days after the bombings:

"Moreover, the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation..."

Or, if you only care about what Americans think, how about our very own Harry S. Truman? What are his thoughts on the significance of your "minor detail"?

"I realize the tragic significance of the atomic bomb ... It is an awful responsibility which has come to us ... We thank God that it has come to us, instead of to our enemies; and we pray that He may guide us to use it in His ways and for His purposes."

200k in 3.5 minutes > 2.6m in 3.5 years. I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.


Ah, so a leader of ISIS was imprisoned after a coup attempt in 2012 or earlier? No? Hmm... well, can you cite any military offensive undertaken in Iraq prior to June of this year? No again? Well, unless you can present actual evidence beyond "um, it takes a long time to take over a country", I'm forced to conclude that the US withdrawal had no causal link with their activities whatsoever. Old Man Science is literally holding a gun to my head.

So you're saying if US forces still occupied Iraq, this would have happened anyway?

[Thondalar]

Well, it would be nice if one day there were no borders. But even I realize that time isn't now. We do need a border but more to keep out dangerous elements. People who are simply just looking for a better life should be welcomed. If we were able to give them that path there wouldn't be a need for them to sneak across. If anyone is still sneaking across then we would know there was ill intent.

These "path to citizenship" people confuse me. Don't they realize there's already a "path to citizenship"? Legal immigrants make up a larger percentage of our population than any other country on the planet...it must not be all that difficult.

[Androidpk]

"I realize the tragic significance of the atomic bomb ... It is an awful responsibility which has come to us ... We thank God that it has come to us, instead of to our enemies; and we pray that He may guide us to use it in His ways and for His purposes.".

This part especially cracks me up. How could any christian say that with a straight face is beyond me.

[Dwaar]

This part especially cracks me up. How could any christian say that with a straight face is beyond me.

'Murica. FUCK YEA!

'ther people. FUCK YOU!

C'mon now PK!

[Taernath]

This part especially cracks me up. How could any christian say that with a straight face is beyond me.

40's and 50's 'Murrica was a strange time. Kennedy almost didn't make it to the Presidency because he was Catholic.

[Warriorbird]

These "path to citizenship" people confuse me. Don't they realize there's already a "path to citizenship"? Legal immigrants make up a larger percentage of our population than any other country on the planet...it must not be all that difficult.

If we're serious about our current immigration system we should deal with Mexican corruption. Then again, they have a suspected murderer as their President.

[Androidpk]

If we're serious about our current immigration system we should deal with Mexican corruption. Then again, they have a suspected murderer as their President.

Legalizeeeeee.

[Wrathbringer]

Legalizeeeeee.

As opposed to our president who is a confirmed murderer.

[Latrinsorm]

You're joking, right?

Eisenhower felt we had already won and didn't need to use atomic bombs...that doesn't in any way diminish the statement that was made with their use.

Regardless, Eisenhower's feelings about it don't matter nearly as much as the Japanese Emperor's, who had this to say in his Capitulation Announcement only days after the bombings:

"Moreover, the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation..."

Or, if you only care about what Americans think, how about our very own Harry S. Truman? What are his thoughts on the significance of your "minor detail"?

"I realize the tragic significance of the atomic bomb ... It is an awful responsibility which has come to us ... We thank God that it has come to us, instead of to our enemies; and we pray that He may guide us to use it in His ways and for His purposes."

200k in 3.5 minutes > 2.6m in 3.5 years. I have to assume you're just trolling at this point.In general, I do not take what politicians have to say about warfare very seriously. I would also point out that Truman was referring to atomic armament in general and not the relative share of the atomic bomb in World War 2 deaths or in the pacification of Japan. By comparison, Eisenhower specifically dismissed the atomic bombings as necessary to said pacification. I guess I shouldn't be surprised after your gymnastics with Hamilton, but there's just no way to justify your position.
So you're saying if US forces still occupied Iraq, this would have happened anyway?I'm saying it would have happened earlier. These particular insurgents thrive off of domestic instability, which is why they were in Syria from 2011-March 2014 even though we didn't withdraw any troops from there. Clearly the Iraqi government isn't up to handling domestic dissent, which would have been considerable if their sovereignty had been so palpably violated by US forces remaining in occupation. Iraq was stable when we left, and insurgents weren't licking their chops waiting to attack. Look at this graph (https://www.iraqbodycount.org/components/multigraph/multigraph.php?sy=2007&ey=2013&w=500&h=200). There's just no data to back up your claim.

It drives me crazy how people of your ilk are so happy to just forget what they used to say. "lol@Ashlianna saying we destabilized the region around Iraq...them fuckers been unstable since before recorded history" <- you, when it was convenient for you to make that (distressingly xenophobic) argument. Now it's convenient to your biases to make the argument that we did destabilize Iraq, and voila!

[Thondalar]

In general, I do not take what politicians have to say about warfare very seriously. I would also point out that Truman was referring to atomic armament in general and not the relative share of the atomic bomb in World War 2 deaths or in the pacification of Japan. By comparison, Eisenhower specifically dismissed the atomic bombings as necessary to said pacification. I guess I shouldn't be surprised after your gymnastics with Hamilton, but there's just no way to justify your position.

Wow. Just wow.

I know I've said this before, but I mean it this time. I'm done talking to you. There really is no point.

[Back]

It drives me crazy how people of your ilk are so happy to just forget what they used to say.

Like McCain saying the troops leaving Iraq should be credited to GHWB then turns around and blames Obama for the recent insurgency?

[Androidpk]

Like McCain saying the troops leaving Iraq should be credited to GHWB then turns around and blames Obama for the recent insurgency?

Are you surprised? I'm not. Think back to when Bush was president. His actions caused liberals to foam at the mouth. Now there is a democrat president who has only continued Bush's policies and suddenly angry liberals are defensive liberals while the republicans are kicking their feet and shouting. Different year, same shit. Ad infiniitim. We keep going through the same problems again, and again, and again. Instead of continuing to dump trillions in the middle east we should be investing all of that money into our own countries energy supply potential. I keep hearing about how the US is set to pass Saudi Arabia in oil production through shale. We should be building new refineries so we can capitalize on that. Drive down the cost of oil, increase GDP and job growth and so forth.

[Parkbandit]

Like McCain saying the troops leaving Iraq should be credited to GHWB then turns around and blames Obama for the recent insurgency?

Or how people like you wanted to give all the credit to Obama for ending the Iraq War and now you want to blame Bush for the insurgency because he started it?

It's not a 1 way road, no matter how much you close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears and click your high heels 3 times.

[Parkbandit]

Instead of continuing to dump trillions in the middle east we should be investing all of that money into our own countries energy supply potential. I keep hearing about how the US is set to pass Saudi Arabia in oil production through shale. We should be building new refineries so we can capitalize on that. Drive down the cost of oil, increase GDP and job growth and so forth.

Why are you such a nature hating, flat earth, man made global warming denier???

[Androidpk]

Why are you such a nature hating, flat earth, man made global warming denier???

I prefer the name man made global warming enabler.