Donald Sterling and Political Theory

[Ker_Thwap]

So, as a self proclaimed moderate, I was pleased with just about every aspect of how the NBA handled Donald Sterling. My question is, did the way you felt about his punishment challenge any of your political beliefs?

Here's how I see it. Liberals have more recently been all about education and reform of criminals, going to great lengths to ensure no criminal is falsely convicted, is given every possible right before trial and even after conviction, or punished more extremely because of personal emotions. The whole punishing people is barbaric deal because it's societies fault for failing to teach them. The whole surveillance of bad people is bad, even if it prevents a crime.

Any self proclaimed liberals feel like they've sold out a little bit to enjoy Sterling's discomfort? No guilt about denying him the opportunity to be educated? No concerns about ageism, and slapping down an old man with declining mental facilities. No concern about the rage replacing reason, as shown by the NAACP and the NBA in handing out their judgement. No worry about the rush to judgement?

It seems to me this is one of those events where the young idealists end up getting their way on a single issue, and as a result end up abandoning some of their earlier beliefs because certain circumstances now suit them. There are just events for each generation that push the idealists to the main stream. Like when the hippies got a taste of political and economic power.

[Allereli]

what the NBA does as a private organization is completely different from what the government does and constitutional rights, why are people so confused about this?

[Tgo01]

Let's not forget that Shaq is apparently going to get away with the way he humiliated someone with a disability. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?90109-Should-Shaquille-O-Neal-be-banned)

[waywardgs]

I'm curious what your point is.

[Tgo01]

what the NBA does as a private organization is completely different from what the government does and constitutional rights, why are people so confused about this?

This doesn't address anything Ker_Thwap said though.

[Allereli]

Let's not forget that Shaq is apparently going to get away with the way he humiliated someone with a disability. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?90109-Should-Shaquille-O-Neal-be-banned)

why don't you boycott the PC until he is banned?

[Tgo01]

why don't you boycott the PC until he is banned?

Why so hostile? :(

[cwolff]

So, as a self proclaimed moderate, I was pleased with just about every aspect of how the NBA handled Donald Sterling. My question is, did the way you felt about his punishment challenge any of your political beliefs?

Here's how I see it. Liberals have more recently been all about education and reform of criminals, going to great lengths to ensure no criminal is falsely convicted, is given every possible right before trial and even after conviction, or punished more extremely because of personal emotions. The whole punishing people is barbaric deal because it's societies fault for failing to teach them. The whole surveillance of bad people is bad, even if it prevents a crime.

Any self proclaimed liberals feel like they've sold out a little bit to enjoy Sterling's discomfort? No guilt about denying him the opportunity to be educated? No concerns about ageism, and slapping down an old man with declining mental facilities. No concern about the rage replacing reason, as shown by the NAACP and the NBA in handing out their judgement. No worry about the rush to judgement?

It seems to me this is one of those events where the young idealists end up getting their way on a single issue, and as a result end up abandoning some of their earlier beliefs because certain circumstances now suit them. There are just events for each generation that push the idealists to the main stream. Like when the hippies got a taste of political and economic power.

As someone who's also politically moderate but often accused of being liberal I will answer your question even though I don't totally understand it. It seems pretty loaded with some of your personal biases about what liberals are or are not.

Anywho, I'm glad that the NBA handled it the way they did. The only thing that's upsetting is to see people defend Mr. Sterling by saying he was set up, 1st amendment, the girl's a gold digger blah blah blah.

Racism is alive and well in this country and we all need to stamp it right the fuck out. That means putting people who are racist on the spot publicly, especially if it's a public figure who owns a billion dollar business. Guys like Bundy and Sterling or Paula Deen should be eviscerated in the media.

What is news is that none of them seems to know what they did wrong. They're bright shining examples of cultural conditioning with 0 personal responsibility for self improvement in this area. That's why they need to be outed in public and discussed. We'll never eradicate this type of conditioning until everyone realizes that it's not the status quo and it's not O.k.

[Tgo01]

That means putting people who are racist on the spot publicly

By whatever means necessary, am I right?!

That was like exactly Ker_Thwap's point.

Geezus. Why is everyone coming here to read this thread but apparently not even reading the original post?

[waywardgs]

By whatever means necessary, am I right?!

That was like exactly Ker_Thwap's point.

Geezus. Why is everyone coming here to read this thread but apparently not even reading the original post?

I was referring to your Shaq thing.

[Tgo01]

I was referring to your Shaq thing.

I just think it's horrible that someone can do something so despicable and still remain a part owner of an NBA team. Don't you agree?

[waywardgs]

I just think it's horrible that someone can do something so despicable and still remain a part owner of an NBA team. Don't you agree?

Yeah, I get you're trying to point out hypocrisy or a double standard or whatever, but what do you think should have happened to Sterling?

[Ardwen]

I have no issue at all how it was handled, although I want to know how a thorough investigation only took them 2 days, this is all about perception, he's always been a bigot and they have known for years, it took it getting tons of negative press for them to give a damn. He bought the team when no-one wanted NBA teams, made a fortune off the league by not fielding a real team, and being part owner of the old LA Forum, had this not brought all the bad press and threats of lost sponsors they would have continued to ignore him. Being killed for what he says in the privacy of his home is ridiculous, he should have lost the team for what he did publicly years ago, the league has wanted him gone for ages this was their excuse.

[cwolff]

By whatever means necessary, am I right?!

That was like exactly Ker_Thwap's point.

Geezus. Why is everyone coming here to read this thread but apparently not even reading the original post?

Did he not ask if "liberals" were worried about a rush to judgement, if the situation challenges a liberals political beliefs and whether Sterling was unfairly attacked because of emotions? I think I did a pretty good job answering his questions. If I didn't he can always ask for clarification. You seem to be saying that Ker_Thwap only issued a statement and I read it as if he wanted to hear people's opinions.

[Tgo01]

Yeah, I get you're trying to point out hypocrisy or a double standard or whatever, but what do you think should have happened to Sterling?

Hey hey, it doesn't matter what I think should have happened to Sterling, all that matters is what happened to Sterling.

The fact that people are actively avoiding the Shaq thing I think speaks volumes about hypocrisy or double standards or whatever.

[Tgo01]

I think I did a pretty good job answering his questions.

I agree, you did. You basically just said "But it's different this time!"

[waywardgs]

Hey hey, it doesn't matter what I think should have happened to Sterling, all that matters is what happened to Sterling.

The fact that people are actively avoiding the Shaq thing I think speaks volumes about hypocrisy or double standards or whatever.

It was about money. That kid has 4600 followers on a facebook page. Black people are a huge part of the demographic of NBA fans and sponsors were fleeing. It may be hypocritical but really, it's economic.

[cwolff]

I have no issue at all how it was handled, although I want to know how a thorough investigation only took them 2 days, this is all about perception, he's always been a bigot and they have known for years, it took it getting tons of negative press for them to give a damn. He bought the team when no-one wanted NBA teams, made a fortune off the league by not fielding a real team, and being part owner of the old LA Forum, had this not brought all the bad press and threats of lost sponsors they would have continued to ignore him. Being killed for what he says in the privacy of his home is ridiculous, he should have lost the team for what he did publicly years ago, the league has wanted him gone for ages this was their excuse.

It's extremely hard to kick out an owner. If they do this they are making themselves vulnerable so it's not the kind of action that the other owner will take lightly. Even Cuban seems to be distancing himself a little bit from the Termination vote. Right now they have a ground swell of national support which will not only make it easier to do, but also protect them in the future since they can point back to this and say how it was such an extreme circumstance and nothing compared to getting BJ's in the Men's room at the park (edit for TG) or a lapse in judgement like making fun of a disabled kid on Twitter.

[Ker_Thwap]

Tgo01 is correct. It's a "does the ends justify the means question."

The Shaq thing is also pretty scummy behavior, but I don't want to get into a tit for tat, where's the outrage comparison. I'm more interested in which event kinds of wakes you up and kicks you out of your groove, even though you got your way with one aspect of it.

Other events that I think qualify were Obama's election and subsequent Bushlike foreign policy. Let's add the Bush corporate bailout deal, and the Cliven Bundy ranch thing where a lot of conservatives got kicked in the teeth on their beliefs.

[Latrinsorm]

Specifically commenting on the "rush to judgment" part:

1. Sterling publicly defended himself, but never denied the voice was his.
2. He never claimed to have been unknowingly recorded.
3. According to Herr Silver, he admitted that the voice was his.

I can't speak for liberals with their incomprehensible distaste for surveillance. It clearly works and is awesome!

[cwolff]

Tgo01 is correct. It's a "does the ends justify the means question."

The Shaq thing is also pretty scummy behavior, but I don't want to get into a tit for tat, where's the outrage comparison. I'm more interested in which event kinds of wakes you up and kicks you out of your groove, even though you got your way with one aspect of it.

Other events that I think qualify were Obama's election and subsequent Bushlike foreign policy. Let's add the Bush corporate bailout deal, and the Cliven Bundy ranch thing where a lot of conservatives got kicked in the teeth on their beliefs.

This guy is a billionaire and a member of a private club. So he can't go see basketball games now. So what. I'm failing to see the connection between how this will affect one's view on foreign policy, domestic policy or national finances.

That confusion could be because you are working with your own personal pre-conceived notion of what it means to be a liberal.

[Tgo01]

a lapse in judgement like making fun of a disabled kid on Twitter.

Oh okay, the Shaq thing was just a "lapse in judgement" so it's okay.


Specifically commenting on the "rush to judgment" part:

1. Sterling publicly defended himself, but never denied the voice was his.
2. He never claimed to have been unknowingly recorded.
3. According to Herr Silver, he admitted that the voice was his.

I can't speak for liberals with their incomprehensible distaste for surveillance. It clearly works and is awesome!

But weren't people "rushing to judgement" before the guy admitted it was his voice? Create a timeline of events before you say something like this.

[Latrinsorm]

Why so hostile? :(Move to strike.

[Latrinsorm]

But weren't people "rushing to judgement" before the guy admitted it was his voice? Create a timeline of events before you say something like this.If you look carefully, everyone was very careful to parse their statements conditionally: if it's him, if that's what he said, etc.

[Ardwen]

He shouldn't have to defend himself for something he did in the privacy of his home, thats my issue. He clearly hasn't refused to hire black players, coaches or front office personnel. So while he is a bigot he's not hurting his team with his belief. It would be different if he had never had any black personnel on the team. You can be scum but being scum is by itself not something that should be punishable in any way.

[waywardgs]

I'm really curious what Tg thinks should have happened to sterling.

[Tgo01]

If you look carefully, everyone was very careful to parse their statements conditionally: if it's him, if that's what he said, etc.

Oh really? Really? No. Get out.

Everyone. HA! I challenge you to find all interviews and discussions about this where "everyone" was conditional in their condemnation of this man.

[Wrathbringer]

why don't you boycott the PC until he is banned?

lol

[Tgo01]

I'm really curious what Tg thinks should have happened to sterling.

http://itricks.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2steve-spade-burned-at-stake.jpg

[waywardgs]

http://itricks.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2steve-spade-burned-at-stake.jpg

You think he's a witch? Did he float?

[Ker_Thwap]

This guy is a billionaire and a member of a private club. So he can't go see basketball games now. So what. I'm failing to see the connection between how this will affect one's view on foreign policy, domestic policy or national finances.

That confusion could be because you are working with your own personal pre-conceived notion of what it means to be a liberal.

Let me draw out the connections for you then.
- Miranda rights. Liberal or conservative?
- Opposition to three strikes. Liberal or conservative.
- Prison reform, rehabilitation. Liberal or conservative.
- Giving bad people second chances. Liberal or conservative.
- Inflexible sentencing. Liberal or conservative.
- Blaming society for the poor behavior. Liberal or conservative?
- Vigilante justice. Liberal or conservative?

OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking social liberalism, not economic, nor foreign policy concerns.

[Tgo01]

You think he's a witch? Did he float?

He never denied being a witch. Good enough for me.

[cwolff]

Let me draw out the connections for you then.
- Miranda rights. Liberal or conservative?
- Opposition to three strikes. Liberal or conservative.
- Prison reform, rehabilitation. Liberal or conservative.
- Giving bad people second chances. Liberal or conservative.
- Inflexible sentencing. Liberal or conservative.
- Blaming society for the poor behavior. Liberal or conservative?
- Vigilante justice. Liberal or conservative?

OBVIOUSLY, I'm talking social liberalism, not economic, nor foreign policy concerns.

I see what you are trying to say but I can't see the connection. All the things you talked about are either criminal or human rights issues. Sterling's just an asshole that no one in his NBA peer group wants to be associated with. Not even the conservatives. He'll sell the team for a billion dollars and go lick his wounds somewhere opulent.

[Tgo01]

I see what you are trying to say but I can't see the connection.

It's different this time!

[cwolff]

It's different this time!

Different this time implies that we're dealing with two equal scenarios and we're not. You'll never understand that until you learn to deal with the shades of gray.

[Ker_Thwap]

I see what you are trying to say but I can't see the connection. All the things you talked about are either criminal or human rights issues. Sterling's just an asshole that no one in his NBA peer group wants to be associated with. Not even the conservatives. He'll sell the team for a billion dollars and go lick his wounds somewhere opulent.

Ask yourself if you think the prosecution and punishment of Sterling was done in generally liberal manner, or a generally conservative manner. I think he was "prosecuted" in a generally conservative manner.

They didn't care that he might have had his privacy violated. (not legally)
Didn't suggest he go to a Jason Kidd 6 month re-education clinic.
Didn't care that this man was brainwashed by the 1950s society
Didn't care that he's part of a protected class, age (fading mental faculties?)
Didn't care about a unilateral decision without hearing his side of the story, suggestions for improvement.
Exulted in the rage demonstrated by the NBA and NAACP spokespeople.

These seem to me hallmarks of the conservative way of thinking.

Being more conservative than some, I think they did a fine job. I'm just surprised no liberal is concerned about the methods used to slam him. Are you suggesting that Sterling's human rights aren't important, regardless of whether it's a criminal or civil issue?

[waywardgs]

Owning a billion dollar nba franchise isn't a "right." I wish it were.

[Ker_Thwap]

Owning a billion dollar nba franchise isn't a "right." I wish it were.

Yeah, it's why I didn't mention it in my list.

[cwolff]

Ask yourself if you think the prosecution and punishment of Sterling was done in generally liberal manner, or a generally conservative manner. I think he was "prosecuted" in a generally conservative manner.

They didn't care that he might have had his privacy violated. (not legally)
Didn't suggest he go to a Jason Kidd 6 month re-education clinic.
Didn't care that this man was brainwashed by the 1950s society
Didn't care that he's part of a protected class, age (fading mental faculties?)
Didn't care about a unilateral decision without hearing his side of the story, suggestions for improvement.
Exulted in the rage demonstrated by the NBA and NAACP spokespeople.

These seem to me hallmarks of the conservative way of thinking.

Being more conservative than some, I think they did a fine job. I'm just surprised no liberal is concerned about the methods used to slam him. Are you suggesting that Sterling's human rights aren't important, regardless of whether it's a criminal or civil issue?

People get fired all the time. It's not a human rights issue and it's neither civil or criminal. He fucked up and got kicked out of his club. That's all. Hopefully it's a great learning experience for him.

[Ker_Thwap]

People get fired all the time. It's not a human rights issue and it's neither civil or criminal. He fucked up and got kicked out of his club. That's all. Hopefully it's a great learning experience for him.

Alright then, I have your answer. The ends do justify the means. Thanks for playing.

[waywardgs]

None of the rights on your list were violated. The private organization he belonged to kicked him out. He wasn't fired for his beliefs, or his age, or his mental capacity. He was kicked out of an organization. That's it.

[cwolff]

Alright then, I have your answer. The ends do justify the means. Thanks for playing.

Those aren't my words. "Ends justifies the means" refers to doing something distasteful because it gets you a good result. I don't think the way Sterling's been attacked is distasteful. I think it's well earned and I'm glad that the tapes were released and I'm glad he's getting the boot.

[Ker_Thwap]

Those aren't my words. "Ends justifies the means" refers to doing something distasteful because it gets you a good result. I don't think the way Sterling's been attacked is distasteful. I think it's well earned and I'm glad that the tapes were released and I'm glad he's getting the boot.

Fair enough.

[Ardwen]

If someone recorded you at home, discussing with your wife, husband, sheep, blow up doll, how much you hated your boss, job, or whatever else and somehow it got back to the boss and they fired you, you apparently think thats okay, because essentially that is what happened here, is Sterling deserving of losing the franchise, sure, but he was deserving long before this incident. This is very much an end justifying the means situation. He was caught with a smoking gun, and the players and more importantly the sponsors are up in arms. Do you think if no sponsors cared they would do anything? The players sure as hell wont quit the NBA seeing as most of them have no other way to make millions of dollars.

[Ker_Thwap]

None of the rights on your list were violated. The private organization he belonged to kicked him out. He wasn't fired for his beliefs, or his age, or his mental capacity. He was kicked out of an organization. That's it.

Well, he was kicked out because of his beliefs. I hesitate to call my list "rights" (To avoid confusion, I should have pointed this out in my last response to you.) It seems to me, that liberals have behaved contrary to what they've previously held dear and fought for. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, in fact I think it's great when people move towards more moderate views.

[Tgo01]

Those aren't my words. "Ends justifies the means" refers to doing something distasteful because it gets you a good result. I don't think the way Sterling's been attacked is distasteful. I think it's well earned and I'm glad that the tapes were released and I'm glad he's getting the boot.

Did you just defend a "the ends justifies the means" stance by saying "the ends justifies the means"?

[Back]

The fact that people are actively avoiding the Shaq thing I think speaks volumes about hypocrisy or double standards or whatever.

Only you, Tg01, could take silence to mean whatever you want it to mean. Maybe, just maybe, no one here gives a shit and that it means absolutely nothing concerning Sterling.

[Latrinsorm]

They didn't care that he might have had his privacy violated. (not legally)
Didn't care about a unilateral decision without hearing his side of the story, suggestions for improvement.
Exulted in the rage demonstrated by the NBA and NAACP spokespeople.He has never claimed his privacy was violated, the commissioner met with him before handing down the sentence, nobody has demonstrated "rage".

I get what you're trying to do here, but you need a better example.

[Tgo01]

Only you, Tg01, could take silence to mean whatever you want it to mean.

Only you, Back, could take silence to mean "We really give a shit..no really we do! Just not enough to, y'know, be vocal about it."

[Tgo01]

He has never claimed his privacy was violated

If I slap you upside the head for being dumb but you never say I assaulted you does that mean I never assaulted you?

On an unrelated note if I were to slap you upside the head for being dumb would you say I didn't assault you?

[Ker_Thwap]

Did you just defend a "the ends justifies the means" stance by saying "the ends justifies the means"?

I think I have it down to... He doesn't believe in those liberal tenets that were violated, or if he still hasn't made the connection of how they were violated.

[waywardgs]

Well, he was kicked out because of his beliefs. I hesitate to call my list "rights" (To avoid confusion, I should have pointed this out in my last response to you.) It seems to me, that liberals have behaved contrary to what they've previously held dear and fought for. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, in fact I think it's great when people move towards more moderate views.

What I meant was that he wasn't fired. He was booted from a club.

[Back]

So, as a self proclaimed moderate, I was pleased with just about every aspect of how the NBA handled Donald Sterling. My question is, did the way you felt about his punishment challenge any of your political beliefs?

Here's how I see it. Liberals have more recently been all about education and reform of criminals, going to great lengths to ensure no criminal is falsely convicted, is given every possible right before trial and even after conviction, or punished more extremely because of personal emotions. The whole punishing people is barbaric deal because it's societies fault for failing to teach them. The whole surveillance of bad people is bad, even if it prevents a crime.

Any self proclaimed liberals feel like they've sold out a little bit to enjoy Sterling's discomfort? No guilt about denying him the opportunity to be educated? No concerns about ageism, and slapping down an old man with declining mental facilities. No concern about the rage replacing reason, as shown by the NAACP and the NBA in handing out their judgement. No worry about the rush to judgement?

It seems to me this is one of those events where the young idealists end up getting their way on a single issue, and as a result end up abandoning some of their earlier beliefs because certain circumstances now suit them. There are just events for each generation that push the idealists to the main stream. Like when the hippies got a taste of political and economic power.

This isn't politics. It's not political. The government is not involved. It's a private association dealing with their members internally.

My personal feeling is I'm glad his systematic racism that's been swept under the rug for years is now out in the open and being dealt with. I'm glad the NBA stood up to it. I'm glad for the members, the fans, and especially the kids who aspire to play major sports. Even though his punishment may not mean much to him, everyone else are the clear winners in this situation.

[Tgo01]

This isn't politics. It's not political. The government is not involved. It's a private association dealing with their members internally.

Stop making this argument and answer his questions or don't.

[Ker_Thwap]

He has never claimed his privacy was violated, the commissioner met with him before handing down the sentence, nobody has demonstrated "rage".

I get what you're trying to do here, but you need a better example.

He hasn't claimed his privacy was violated, then again, we haven't seen him drag this whole thing through court yet. He could be saving his bullets.

I've heard an NPR spokeswoman and numerous sports commentators talking about how the commissioner had just the right note of rage in his voice as he made his statement. They seem to me to feel that rage/anger was just what people needed to pacify the nation. Now, I personally think a little rage is a good thing, like when you're talking about that guy who was just clumsily executed for shooting and burying alive a girl. I've been given to understand by a certain segment of the political spectrum that justice should be devoid of emotion.

Edit: just correct the ugly grammar in your head.

[Ker_Thwap]

This isn't politics. It's not political. The government is not involved. It's a private association dealing with their members internally.

My personal feeling is I'm glad his systematic racism that's been swept under the rug for years is now out in the open and being dealt with. I'm glad the NBA stood up to it. I'm glad for the members, the fans, and especially the kids who aspire to play major sports. Even though his punishment may not mean much to him, everyone else are the clear winners in this situation.

Yeah, I'm going more with the ethics of political beliefs here. Not with the legal system. One would hope you'd act ethically according to your believes as you move through the private sector as well as the legal system.

I'm more trying to address the idea of "What kind of events killed the hippies and brought them into the mainstream" here.

[Back]

Only you, Back, could take silence to mean "We really give a shit..no really we do! Just not enough to, y'know, be vocal about it."

You are a very confused individual.

[Tgo01]

You are a very confused individual.

Alright Back I'll stop putting words in your mouth.

Do you think what Shaq did was wrong? What should happen to him, if anything?

Come on, let's have a serious discussion.

[Back]

Yeah, I'm going more with the ethics of political beliefs here. Not with the legal system. One would hope you'd act ethically according to your believes as you move through the private sector as well as the legal system.

I'm more trying to address the idea of "What kind of events killed the hippies and brought them into the mainstream" here.

Everything I have heard is that Sterling admitted to Silver that it was him. That Sterling requested V. tape their conversations. Were his rights as a citizen of the United States violated by the NBA? I don't think there is a case for it. If they were then he should go ahead and fight to stay in an organization that no one wants him in. Either way I think Silver, the NBA, and the public have already won.

[cwolff]

Did you just defend a "the ends justifies the means" stance by saying "the ends justifies the means"?

The way I understand the phrase, the ends justifies means, is to use immoral behavior to get a moral result. How do you define it? Are we on different pages here?

[Back]

Alright Back I'll stop putting words in your mouth.

Do you think what Shaq did was wrong? What should happen to him, if anything?

Come on, let's have a serious discussion.

I don't know much about it and frankly I don't particularly care. Knowing you, you are going to take that to claim I am prejudiced against all disabled people everywhere.

If Shaq mocked a disabled person, yeah, it was wrong. Shaq should apologize.

[Tgo01]

The way I understand the phrase, the ends justifies means, is to use immoral behavior to get a moral result. How do you define it? Are we on different pages here?

It basically just means the only thing that matters is the end result. Who cares about politics or laws or blah blah blah.

Do you think it's right for someone to use a recording of another person to get them in trouble when that person never agreed to let that recording become public knowledge?
Do you think it's right for this person to do this knowing full well said person would get into trouble?

That's part of the point here. You're saying it's okay because it exposed a racist and that's the ultimate goal. Is that really all that matters; exposing racists?

[Ker_Thwap]

Everything I have heard is that Sterling admitted to Silver that it was him. That Sterling requested V. tape their conversations. Were his rights as a citizen of the United States violated by the NBA? I don't think there is a case for it. If they were then he should go ahead and fight to stay in an organization that no one wants him in. Either way I think Silver, the NBA, and the public have already won.

Yep, I agree with everything you said. But that's not at all the point of why I'm having this conversation. I'm not trying to prove anyone right or wrong.

I'll break it down to simpler questions. You can answer, or not, as you like. Do you think Donald Sterling can be taught to embrace diversity? Should he be given another chance to redeem himself? Do you think people are a product of their environment? Do you believe that society is ever to blame for what people do?

Those are the kind of questions that arise for me. I just see this as one of those watermark events where pretty much everyone agrees on how this was carried out. When both sides agree, I'm always interested in why.

[Tgo01]

I don't know much about it and frankly I don't particularly care.

Why am I not surprised?


If Shaq mocked a disabled person, yeah, it was wrong. Shaq should apologize.

That's it? Shaq should apologize? Why couldn't Sterling just apologize and everyone just move on? That's the type of thing Ker_Thwap has been asking about this entire thread.

[Back]

Do you think Donald Sterling can be taught to embrace diversity? Should he be given another chance to redeem himself? Do you think people are a product of their environment? Do you believe that society is ever to blame for what people do?

Well, the man is what? 80 years old? He has prior judgments and evidence showing his racism. I don't think the guy is going to change. He's had plenty of time to change already.

As far as being a product of his environment and is society to blame? He's a rich white guy and an adult.

[Back]

Why am I not surprised?



That's it? Shaq should apologize? Why couldn't Sterling just apologize and everyone just move on? That's the type of thing Ker_Thwap has been asking about this entire thread.

You may think they are the same, but I don't. Sorry.

[Tgo01]

Well, the man is what? 80 years old? He has prior judgments and evidence showing his racism. I don't think the guy is going to change. He's had plenty of time to change already.

As far as being a product of his environment and is society to blame? He's a rich white guy and an adult.

Holy shit, Ker_Thwap, you really hit the nail on the head with this topic. Back is sounding exactly like a rich old white Republican right about now.


You may think they are the same, but I don't. Sorry.

Why not exactly? Because one can further your political agenda and the other can't?

[Jeril]

He's a rich white guy and an adult.

What do either of those have to do with the specifics of how he was raised? Him being rich and white doesn't really mean anything, he could be poor and of some other race and still be raised to be a racist.

[Back]

What do either of those have to do with the specifics of how he was raised? Him being rich and white doesn't really mean anything, he could be poor and of some other race and still be raised to be a racist.

I suppose I should have added that being a rich white guy and an adult means you can't excuse his behavior on his environment or society at large.

[Ker_Thwap]

Why am I not surprised?



That's it? Shaq should apologize? Why couldn't Sterling just apologize and everyone just move on? That's like exactly what Ker_Thwap has been asking this whole thread.

Not exactly. Since you seem to be determined to sidetrack this thread... I'll give Shaq a mitigating circumstance pass because he's always been a bit of a well intentioned clown. Sterling has been a long time proven weasel. There's been precedent for players to apologize or enter therapy, or otherwise pay their debt to society. Then again, maybe I need to take him out of the player category, and put him into the owner category. I'm just wondering if people are even examining their own beliefs, or just striking out kind of blindly in a feel good justice mode.

[Ker_Thwap]

Warning: I'm currently enjoying a delicious whiskey kahlua milk beverage. My reasoning may become impaired.

[Back]

I'm just wondering if people are even examining their own beliefs, or just striking out kind of blindly in a feel good justice mode.

Or maybe, just maybe, people do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do. I know, crazy!

[Ker_Thwap]

Or maybe, just maybe, people do the right thing just because it is the right thing to do. I know, crazy!

Hey, if you want to embrace moderate and conservative values, that's fine with me.

[Tgo01]

Not exactly.

Your point hasn't been that the party who usually wants to give others another chance and focuses more on rehabilitation instead of punishment are now for not giving this guy another chance and are more focused on punishment instead of rehabilitation because they want some sort of feel good outcome to this whole thing?

I thought I had this one nailed.

[Ker_Thwap]

Your point hasn't been that the party who usually wants to give others another chance and focuses more on rehabilitation instead of punishment are now for not giving this guy another chance and are more focused on punishment instead of rehabilitation because they want some sort of feel good outcome to this whole thing?

I thought I had this one nailed.

You do with that statement. The Shaq concept was an imperfect analogy however.

[cwolff]

It basically just means the only thing that matters is the end result. Who cares about politics or laws or blah blah blah.

Do you think it's right for someone to use a recording of another person to get them in trouble when that person never agreed to let that recording become public knowledge?
Do you think it's right for this person to do this knowing full well said person would get into trouble?

That's part of the point here. You're saying it's okay because it exposed a racist and that's the ultimate goal. Is that really all that matters; exposing racists?

I am not saying that and frankly I'm reluctant to even respond to you since you'll just try to warp any words I type.

[Tgo01]

I am not saying that and frankly I'm reluctant to even respond to you since you'll just try to warp any words I type.


Racism is alive and well in this country and we all need to stamp it right the fuck out. That means putting people who are racist on the spot publicly, especially if it's a public figure who owns a billion dollar business. Guys like Bundy and Sterling or Paula Deen should be eviscerated in the media.

What is news is that none of them seems to know what they did wrong. They're bright shining examples of cultural conditioning with 0 personal responsibility for self improvement in this area. That's why they need to be outed in public and discussed. We'll never eradicate this type of conditioning until everyone realizes that it's not the status quo and it's not O.k.

Spare me, please.

[cwolff]

Your point hasn't been that the party who usually wants to give others another chance and focuses more on rehabilitation instead of punishment are now for not giving this guy another chance and are more focused on punishment instead of rehabilitation because they want some sort of feel good outcome to this whole thing?

I thought I had this one nailed.

You're missing out on one thing that is key. A liberal may very well want to befriend Sterling and help him come to terms with his racism but that has nothing to do with whether he remains an owner or not. Liberal don't want NO PRISON. They want people in prison to get the help they need. There's no liberal tenet that a person has to maintain their current position in society as part of their reformation.

[Tgo01]

A liberal may very well want to befriend Sterling ... but that has nothing to do with whether he remains an owner or not. ... There's no liberal tenet that a person has to maintain their current position in society as part of their reformation.

That's pretty mind boggling. So a liberal sees nothing wrong with forcing (read not 'government' force before you get bent out of shape) someone to give up their property in order to help them?

[waywardgs]

That's pretty mind boggling. So a liberal sees nothing wrong with forcing (read not 'government' force before you get bent out of shape) someone to give up their property in order to help them?

Give up property? His team isn't being confiscated. He's going to make several hundred million from the sale.

[Tgo01]

Give up property? His team isn't being confiscated. He's going to make several hundred million from the sale.

In the sense that he would rather have the team instead of the money then yes, the NBA is seeking ways to force him to give up his property.

[waywardgs]

In the sense that he would rather have the team instead of the money then yes, the NBA is seeking ways to force him to give up his property.

The government should step in and tell this organization what it can and cannot do, obviously.

[cwolff]

Spare me, please.

What you are missing is that the phrase "the ends justify the means" implies that the means are immoral, bad, evil and the only way to justify them is by having a good result from it.

I don't believe that outing Mr. Sterling, Paula Deen or Bundy for racism is immoral, bad or evil or that it requires justification.


That's pretty mind boggling. So a liberal sees nothing wrong with forcing (read not 'government' force before you get bent out of shape) someone to give up their property in order to help them?

What did I just say about warping my words? I even brought it up and you do it immediately.

What you just wrote is flat out wrong. Do you do this on purpose or you really don't get it? It's baffling. I write that although a liberal MAY want to help Mr. Sterling get over his racism, this has nothing to do with whether he is an NBA owner or not. They are not conditional upon each other.

[Tgo01]

The government should step in and tell this organization what it can and cannot do, obviously.

I agree. We need government regulation in the NBA.


I don't believe that outing Mr. Sterling, Paula Deen or Bundy for racism is immoral, bad or evil or that it requires justification.

I don't believe anyone has said outing Sterling as a racist is bad. The question is how was he outed? Is it okay to violate his privacy as long as it exposes him to be a racist? Is it okay to use this exchange between his girlfriend as an excuse to get him removed from the NBA permanently?

You keep tap dancing over these issues.


What did I just say about warping my words? I even brought it up and you do it immediately.

What you just wrote is flat out wrong. Do you do this on purpose or you really don't get it? It's baffling. I write that although a liberal MAY want to help Mr. Sterling get over his racism, this has nothing to do with whether he is an NBA owner or not. They are not conditional upon each other.


There's no liberal tenet that a person has to maintain their current position in society as part of their reformation.

???

I think you're just creating brand new fallacies at this point.

[Back]

Tg01, some advice. You'll find life a lot less confusing when you stop trying so hard to put a square peg in a round hole. Trust me, life will be a lot easier if you just accept things for what they simply are.

[cwolff]

I agree. We need government regulation in the NBA.

I don't believe anyone has said outing Sterling as a racist is bad. The question is how was he outed? Is it okay to violate his privacy as long as it exposes him to be a racist? Is it okay to use this exchange between his girlfriend as an excuse to get him removed from the NBA permanently?

You keep tap dancing over these issues.

???

I think you're just creating brand new fallacies at this point.

He has no inherent rights to privacy in this situation. You're making that up. I even posted a quote from Massachusetts where perverts were taking pictures up women's skirts and it was legal. You'd think that woman would have a right to wear a skirt and not be violated that way but it wasn't the case.

California says that both parties have to be aware of the recording. It sounds like they both were. After that either party can make it public.

As for the brand new fallacies thing, you're just wrong again. Of course. I know you do it on purpose, I just don't understand why you would want to.

[Tgo01]

California says that both parties have to be aware of the recording. It sounds like they both were. After that either party can make it public.

Talk about making things up. Is that actually what the California law says? As long as both people are aware of the recording either party can do whatever they want with it despite the intended purposes of said recording?

So if a man and a woman want to make a sex tape together for their own private use then the man gets mad at her and uploads the tape on the internet you feel the man did nothing wrong?

In any event that's why Ker_Thwap didn't want to make this a legal discussion but rather a moral discussion.

Even if this chick was perfectly within her rights to do what she did do you feel from a moral perspective it was the right thing to do?

[cwolff]

Talk about making things up. Is that actually what the California law says? As long as both people are aware of the recording either party can do whatever they want with it despite the intended purposes of said recording?

So if a man and a woman want to make a sex tape together for their own private use then the man gets mad at her and uploads the tape on the internet you feel the man did nothing wrong?

In any event that's why Ker_Thwap didn't want to make this a legal discussion but rather a moral discussion.

Even if this chick was perfectly within her rights to do what she did do you feel from a moral perspective it was the right thing to do?

It is two party consent. Most states are single party meaning that only one person has to be aware the conversation's being recorded. This means you can't tape the neighbors phone calls but you can tape your own. I don't know if she had the right to release it. One article I read said that she did have the right to release it since they were both aware it was being recorded but I can't find it again.

Regarding the morality, I don't view this as right and wrong in that way. This situation is not so absolute. These were two consenting adults in a dysfunctional relationship that went bad very publicly.

[Latrinsorm]

Warning: I'm currently enjoying a delicious whiskey kahlua milk beverage. My reasoning may become impaired.Too late.
If I slap you upside the head for being dumb but you never say I assaulted you does that mean I never assaulted you?No, but if I go out of my way to explain the incident and don't mention it, it would be reasonable to assume it didn't happen. This is obviously only valid in the situations where the potential offender has no power over the potential victim, so if the girlfriend is one of those MS-13 types all bets are off.
Talk about making things up. Is that actually what the California law says? As long as both people are aware of the recording either party can do whatever they want with it despite the intended purposes of said recording?

So if a man and a woman want to make a sex tape together for their own private use then the man gets mad at her and uploads the tape on the internet you feel the man did nothing wrong?

In any event that's why Ker_Thwap didn't want to make this a legal discussion but rather a moral discussion.

Even if this chick was perfectly within her rights to do what she did do you feel from a moral perspective it was the right thing to do?I'll explain this entire situation to you and Ker_Thwap. Suppose you had a tape of that man uploading the tape, and that the police can't do anything about it because for some insane reason they don't have universal surveillance. What to do? You have proof the man is a scumbag that is not admissible in a court of law... but the court of public opinion, aha!

Suppose you're a police officer, and you have a warrant for a kidnapper's arrest. You break into his home, drag him out in handcuffs, and put him in a cell for the rest of his life.

OMG YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING AS HE DID! YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT! ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!?!?

The word you're groping for is "context". Context, Terry. Context.

[~Rocktar~]

None of the rights on your list were violated. The private organization he belonged to kicked him out. He wasn't fired for his beliefs, or his age, or his mental capacity. He was kicked out of an organization. That's it.

So, if a private organization kicks you out for being a bigot and that's ok, can they keep you and tell everyone to take a hike and be just as ok?

[Tgo01]

No, but if I go out of my way to explain the incident and don't mention it, it would be reasonable to assume it didn't happen.

No.


I'll explain this entire situation to you and Ker_Thwap. Suppose you had a tape of that man uploading the tape, and that the police can't do anything about it because for some insane reason they don't have universal surveillance. What to do? You have proof the man is a scumbag that is not admissible in a court of law... but the court of public opinion, aha!

Suppose you're a police officer, and you have a warrant for a kidnapper's arrest. You break into his home, drag him out in handcuffs, and put him in a cell for the rest of his life.

OMG YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING AS HE DID! YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT! ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!?!?

The word you're groping for is "context". Context, Terry. Context.

So...can I slap you upside the head?

[cwolff]

So, if a private organization kicks you out for being a bigot and that's ok, can they keep you and tell everyone to take a hike and be just as ok?

Bigots are not ok. Bigoted clubs are not ok. Therefore, belonging to a bigoted club with a membership of 1 is not ok.

[ClydeR]

Before somebody says otherwise, let me point out that this is not the same thing as Brendan Eich at Mozilla.

[cwolff]

Before somebody says otherwise, let me point out that this is not the same thing as Brendan Eich at Mozilla.

Damnit. Now I have to google.

[Latrinsorm]

Eich? Sounds like reich to me.

Unless he's a good guy. Then it sounds like... pike?

[waywardgs]

So, if a private organization kicks you out for being a bigot and that's ok, can they keep you and tell everyone to take a hike and be just as ok?

You can if you don't like money. Sponsors will (did) drop you (the clippers) like a hot potato. Free market amirite!!

[waywardgs]

Bigots are not ok. Bigoted clubs are not ok. Therefore, belonging to a bigoted club with a membership of 1 is not ok.

Meh. You can make all the bigoted clubs you want. It's fine with me. But don't expect to cater to a very wide audience.

[~Rocktar~]

Meh. You can make all the bigoted clubs you want. It's fine with me. But don't expect to cater to a very wide audience.

Boy Scouts of America ring a bell?

[Ardwen]

theres no shortage of bigoted organizations, some of them very profitable and popular. This got bad press, so the league decided is had to act. It has nothing to do with how any of them feel about the issues, it has to do with their wallets. Anyone that says anything different is lying to you.

[waywardgs]

Boy Scouts of America ring a bell?

I really hope you're not telling us you're a scout master...

[Ker_Thwap]

I'll explain this entire situation to you and Ker_Thwap. Suppose you had a tape of that man uploading the tape, and that the police can't do anything about it because for some insane reason they don't have universal surveillance. What to do? You have proof the man is a scumbag that is not admissible in a court of law... but the court of public opinion, aha!

Suppose you're a police officer, and you have a warrant for a kidnapper's arrest. You break into his home, drag him out in handcuffs, and put him in a cell for the rest of his life.

OMG YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING AS HE DID! YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT! ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!?!?

The word you're groping for is "context". Context, Terry. Context.

I certainly agree about context. Law enforcement should be held to a higher standard than a private individual or organization. But you're entirely failing about the OMG YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING AS HE DID! YOU'RE NO DIFFERENT! ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS!?!? histrionics. No one has said your lame examples are the same thing, I'm not defending that straw man.

[Ardwen]

What amuses me about all this, if he actually does sell, he is going to get far more cash then he would have otherwise for a second rate team, theres going to be tons of rich people that want to the Hero that save us from the bigot that owns a team, if Sterling had set this up on purpose he couldnt have done a better job of advertising the team was for sale.

[Tgo01]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQlsSk7sCRM

Way to stay classy, Snoop Dog/Lion/whatever the fuck you call yourself these days.

[cwolff]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQlsSk7sCRM

Way to stay classy, Snoop Dog/Lion/whatever the fuck you call yourself these days.

And you wonder why I call you racist?


That's what I was wondering when I read the story.

They were so angry about all of this but they want to be sure to get their millions first.

Criticize the players for not boycotting their job.


I can see it now.

"Hey honey, can you pull out that tape from a few nights ago? I forgot which color people I don't like showing up at my basketball games."

Pretty sure it is.

At least that's how the California law sounds.

Criticize the GF.


Did anyone here actually listen to the recording? Is there more than one recording out there?

I never heard him say this in the recording I listened to. In fact he doesn't even say anything bad about black people, he doesn't even tell her to stop associating with black people, he does tell her to not "broadcast" the fact that she hangs out with black people. He says he wouldn't even mind if she broadcasted the fact that she hangs out with Latin people. I guess he has this thing where since she's perceived to be white or Latin that she should only show the world that she hangs out with whites or Latins.

I'm not saying he's right and it's an ignorant and stupid thing to say, but all the stories I've heard have this guy saying he said he hates black people, he doesn't want her to hang out with black people and he doesn't want her to bring black people to his games.

Also I don't have another recording of this chick to go by but she sounds so fake in that recording. I don't know if she purposefully got into this argument because she wanted to record him or dubbed it or what but she totally sounds like she's acting. But maybe she's just a ditz and always sounds like that. As I said I don't know, I've never heard her on anything but this.

More GF criticisms preceded by an attempt justify and defend Sterling.


Never mind. Apparently I wasn't listening to the "extended" version. He does indeed say don't bring black people to my games.

Here's where you realized they've got him nailed on being a racist, but instead of criticizing him....


His comments are worse than the Holocaust!

You deflect the criticism with a sarcastic holocaust comment.

Then you start in on Shaq and now Snoop. Why are so slow to criticize Sterling and so quick to criticize everyone else?

[Tgo01]

And you wonder why I call you racist?

Holy shit, dude. People like you do a disservice to people who are trying to fight real racism.


Criticize the players for not boycotting their job.

Yeah, so?


Criticize the GF.

Yeah, so?


More GF criticisms preceded by an attempt justify and defend Sterling.

What? She does sound fake. I'm beginning to think you never actually listened to the recording, cwolff. It would fit your status quo, after all.


Here's where you realized they've got him nailed on being a racist, but instead of criticizing him....

If you bothered to actually, y'know...READ...you would see I never once said he was or was not a racist, I merely questioned the facts about what was said because I didn't hear him say that in the recording I listened to.


You deflect the criticism with a sarcastic holocaust comment.

I think this proves that you didn't listen to the recording at all. Thanks for proving that, cwolff :)


Then you start in on Shaq and now Snoop. Why are so slow to criticize Sterling and so quick to criticize everyone else?

Did you even listen to the 30 fucking second video about Snoop? You are a sad, sad man :(

[cwolff]

If you bothered to actually, y'know...READ...you would see I never once said he was or was not a racist, I merely questioned the facts about what was said because I didn't hear him say that in the recording I listened to.

You questioned the facts around Sterlings racism and immideately vilified the players, GF, Shaq and Snoop. No questioning the fact for the minorities. Only the white guy gets the benefit of the doubt? Is that it?

[Laviticas]

You questioned the facts around Sterlings racism and immideately vilified the players, GF, Shaq and Snoop. No questioning the fact for the minorities. Only the white guy gets the benefit of the doubt? Is that it?

Personally don't give a fuck about this story. What I am getting tired of is a race of people being called a minority when in fact they are far from a minority if no the majority. More or less it points out who the real racists are.

[Tgo01]

You questioned the facts around Sterlings racism

Bull. Fucking. Shit. Learn to read, I'm not going to translate shit for you anymore.


and immideately vilified the players

I "vilified" the players? "Vilified" the players?


No questioning the fact for the minorities. Only the white guy gets the benefit of the doubt? Is that it?

What the fuck are you talking about? Are you really giving me an attitude because I like to research things for myself? I should just take everyone's words on it that this guy went on a racist rant and was caught on tape about it?

It's a good thing I didn't because that couldn't be further from the truth. People like you only make things worse. You want to be spoon fed information and "facts." You want to be told what to think and who to hate. Fuck finding out anything on your own. You have made it pretty clear you have yet to even listen to the recoding. You have yet to listen to the interview I linked a few posts back.

You were told to hate this man because of the racist shit he said on tape and that's exactly what you're doing.

Just remember to vote Democrat next election!

Funny how you claim I have done nothing but defend Sterling yet somehow managed to skip over these quotes:


I'm not saying he's right and it's an ignorant and stupid thing to say


He said he didn't want his girlfriend hanging out with black people because of the way his friends were perceiving it. Ignorant? Yes. Stupid? Yes.

Spare us all your sanctimonious bullshit, cwolff.

[cwolff]

Personally don't give a fuck about this story. What I am getting tired of is a race of people being called a minority when in fact they are far from a minority if no the majority. More or less it points out who the real racists are.

This is pretty racist too. It allows the dominant culture to dismiss the anger of other cultures in our society. You don't even have to address the possibility that there's an issue if you can just blow them off as reverse-racists. It's a modern equivalent to "Let them eat cake."

[Laviticas]

This is pretty racist too. It allows the dominant culture to dismiss the anger of other cultures in our society. You don't even have to address the possibility that there's an issue if you can just blow them off as reverse-racists. It's a modern equivalent to "Let them eat cake."

Fuck serious, reverse racism, how the fuck did I know that is exactly the term you were going to use. How far do fucks like you want to go back in history to make reparations? It would bee like one big circle jerk.

Reverse racism, such a moronic term.

Seriously Cwolff I have never debated someone so filled with hate that claims they have it all figured out.

[cwolff]

Personally don't give a fuck about this story. What I am getting tired of is a race of people being called a minority when in fact they are far from a minority if no the majority. More or less it points out who the real racists are.


Fuck serious, reverse racism, how the fuck did I know that is exactly the term you were going to use. How far do fucks like you want to go back in history to make reparations? It would bee like one big circle jerk.

Reverse racism, such a moronic term.

Seriously Cwolff I have never debated someone so filled with hate that claims they have it all figured out.

You don't give a fuck about Sterling's racism because it doesn't affect you but you're pissed about the minorities talking about (I can only assume because you didn't actually support your point of view) things like institutional racism? You even brought up reparations which no one's mentioned. Then you have the gall to say I'm full of hate? Aren't you the Born-Again?

[waywardgs]

Personally don't give a fuck about this story. What I am getting tired of is a race of people being called a minority when in fact they are far from a minority if no the majority. More or less it points out who the real racists are.

lolwut

Was there a massive demographic shift while I was taking a nap?

[Laviticas]

You don't give a fuck about Sterling's racism because it doesn't affect you but you're pissed about the minorities talking about (I can only assume because you didn't actually support your point of view) things like institutional racism? You even brought up reparations which no one's mentioned. Then you have the gall to say I'm full of hate? Aren't you the Born-Again?

Oh yes these players are so abused making millions a year, free college educations, ...to play a fucking game. The owner is an asshole, don't buy his shit, don't watch his games, use the power of the purse. The problem we have is you fuckers always want to drag the GD government into it. You're like the neighbor who calls the damn cops to solve everyone of your petty complaints.

The only race problem in our country is the people that just can't let rest or the people making money by keeping the hate going. The rest of us just don't care, we are past it and understand the ignorance.

[cwolff]

Oh yes these players are so abused making millions a year, free college educations, ...to play a fucking game. The owner is an asshole, don't buy his shit, don't watch his games, use the power of the purse. The problem we have is you fuckers always want to drag the GD government into it. You're like the neighbor who calls the damn cops to solve everyone of your petty complaints.

The only race problem in our country is the people that just can't let rest or the people making money by keeping the hate going. The rest of us just don't care, we are past it and understand the ignorance.

I hate to even ask about how you harass your neighbors.

[Latrinsorm]

Personally don't give a fuck about this story. What I am getting tired of is a race of people being called a minority when in fact they are far from a minority if no the majority. More or less it points out who the real racists are.I read this a few times but still don't get it. It sounds like you are claiming black people aren't a minority, can you clarify?
The problem we have is you fuckers always want to drag the GD government into it.Can you cite any person here advocating government action against Donald Sterling?

[Tgo01]

Well this is interesting. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01/sterling-tape-leaked-third_n_5250370.html)

So according to the girlfriend she sent the recordings to a friend for "safe keeping" (wink wink) and the friend is the one who made the tapes public.

I also like how the lawyer portrayed her as an innocent "young girl."

[Laviticas]

I read this a few times but still don't get it. It sounds like you are claiming black people aren't a minority, can you clarify?Can you cite any person here advocating government action against Donald Sterling?

I'm assuming we all understand the earth is comprised of more than the US, of course I should not be to surprised, this is the US culture we are talking about, where a Domestic dispute between a gold digger and pig consume our attention while the institution burns down around us.

Please, the democrats didn't hesitate making this political, even Obama has been making this a stump issue as Putin makes him look like a little girl.

[cwolff]

I'm assuming we all understand the earth is comprised of more than the US, of course I should not be to surprised, this is the US culture we are talking about, where a Domestic dispute between a gold digger and pig consume our attention while the institution burns down around us.

Please, the democrats didn't hesitate making this political, even Obama has been making this a stump issue as Putin makes him look like a little girl.

LOL. This is a terrible comeback. TERRIBLE! Good try though.

[Allereli]

look like a little girl.

sexist much?

[Laviticas]

sexist much?

Fine, a little boy? Does this make you feel better about his competence?

[Laviticas]

I hate to even ask about how you harass your neighbors.

Compaired to this come back, it's a winner .

[Wrathbringer]

sexist much?

I do.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm assuming we all understand the earth is comprised of more than the US, of course I should not be to surprised, this is the US culture we are talking about, where a Domestic dispute between a gold digger and pig consume our attention while the institution burns down around us.No matter how much Jarvan advocates it, neither Chinese citizens nor any other internationals have a say in how we run our country. Even on a global scale, Africans in no way represent a majority, or even a plurality. The population of Africa ignoring ethnicity is only 14.5%, less than ethnic Chinese alone.
Please, the democrats didn't hesitate making this political, even Obama has been making this a stump issue as Putin makes him look like a little girl.Obama is allowed to talk about the issue without violating Mr. Sterling's First Amendment rights. Indeed, refusing the President that option would be a violation of his First Amendment rights. The First Amendment right to free speech only means that Mr. Sterling can't be censored by the government, and no one has proposed that.

The First Amendment lets you criticize anyone you want, but also lets anyone criticize you.

[Laviticas]

No matter how much Jarvan advocates it, neither Chinese citizens nor any other internationals have a say in how we run our country. Even on a global scale, Africans in no way represent a majority, or even a plurality. The population of Africa ignoring ethnicity is only 14.5%, less than ethnic Chinese alone.Obama is allowed to talk about the issue without violating Mr. Sterling's First Amendment rights. Indeed, refusing the President that option would be a violation of his First Amendment rights. The First Amendment right to free speech only means that Mr. Sterling can't be censored by the government, and no one has proposed that.

The First Amendment lets you criticize anyone you want, but also lets anyone criticize you.

Nor do they represent a minority.

Just the fact that Obama is talking about fucking basketball under our current circumstances, shows they are going to use this to chastise other owners for not lock stepping with the world view of the left. I am sure you will say I'm reading tea leaves, but I assure you this is not far off.

These non-issues are all the democrats have to run on, this next election will be filled with race cards, gender cards and religion cards. I will be shocked if a democrat runs on the success of the ACA, the economy, or foreign policy. I'm guessing it will be one of the biggest non-issue oriented elections we have seen in a very long time, both parties have absolute shit to hold up as a sign of successful policy making.

[Latrinsorm]

Nor do they represent a minority.That's... what? If you're not the majority, you're a minority by definition.
Just the fact that Obama is talking about fucking basketball under our current circumstances, shows they are going to use this to chastise other owners for not lock stepping with the world view of the left. I am sure you will say I'm reading tea leaves, but I assure you this is not far off.

These non-issues are all the democrats have to run on, this next election will be filled with race cards, gender cards and religion cards. I will be shocked if a democrat runs on the success of the ACA, the economy, or foreign policy. I'm guessing it will be one of the biggest non-issue oriented elections we have seen in a very long time, both parties have absolute shit to hold up as a sign of successful policy making.Being anti-Sterling or anti-racism isn't a leftist thing, though. That's why the vote against Sterling is expected to go 29-0, even though I would guess most owners identify as between moderate and conservative.

It's interesting you bring up the economy as a reason for a basketball smokescreen, because I think the act of bringing that up is a smokescreen about how the economy is actually recovering very nicely. Unemployment is down to 6.3% and has increased in 1 month out of the last 16, we've enjoyed 13 straight quarters of real GDP growth, inflation has been under 3% since the start of 2012. Median household income hasn't recovered as well, but it is recovering and even in position terms it's way better than it was in 1982 when the Republicans successfully held the Senate.

And that's why Donald Sterling should be banned.

[waywardgs]

Latrin, you need to stop with the numbers. It messes with people's entrenched biases.

[Tgo01]

That's... what? If you're not the majority, you're a minority by definition.

Latrin, Latrin, Latrin.

Here is a link to a thesaurus for the word "majority." (http://thesaurus.com/browse/majority)

Now if you take a look at the "antonyms"...antonyms...you know...the words that have the exact opposite meaning of the word you are looking up. Okay take a look at antonyms for the word "majority."

Notice the word "minority" does not appear anywhere with words beginning with the letter A-L or N-Z.

Nowhere. None.

You can't explain that.

[Laviticas]

Latrin, you need to stop with the numbers. It messes with people's entrenched biases.

You mean like the entrenched bias of constantly referring to blacks as a minority?

[Laviticas]

That's... what? If you're not the majority, you're a minority by definition.Being anti-Sterling or anti-racism isn't a leftist thing, though. That's why the vote against Sterling is expected to go 29-0, even though I would guess most owners identify as between moderate and conservative.

It's interesting you bring up the economy as a reason for a basketball smokescreen, because I think the act of bringing that up is a smokescreen about how the economy is actually recovering very nicely. Unemployment is down to 6.3% and has increased in 1 month out of the last 16, we've enjoyed 13 straight quarters of real GDP growth, inflation has been under 3% since the start of 2012. Median household income hasn't recovered as well, but it is recovering and even in position terms it's way better than it was in 1982 when the Republicans successfully held the Senate.

And that's why Donald Sterling should be banned.

The economy is good? This is why I'm paying $4.50 a gallon for gas and $5.00 a lb. for ground beef? This is your idea of a good economy? I can buy Top of Iowa sirloin for cheaper than ground beef, something is out of whack, that inflation number is a lie, straight up.

You can post all the numbers you want when it comes to the economy, the fact is the voting public is not feeling this good economy you are touting.

[SHAFT]

Arguing with strangers on the Internet is so much fun!

[waywardgs]

You mean like the entrenched bias of constantly referring to blacks as a minority?

No, that's called a fact.

[Latrinsorm]

You can't explain that.Aliens can't even spell Voyager. Fact.
The economy is good? This is why I'm paying $4.50 a gallon for gas and $5.00 a lb. for ground beef? This is your idea of a good economy? I can buy Top of Iowa sirloin for cheaper than ground beef, something is out of whack, that inflation number is a lie, straight up.A lower than usual inflation is still inflation, meaning prices go up. It turns out that the right level of inflation is neither too high (e.g. Weimar) nor too low (e.g. Great Depression), but between 1% and 3% (roughly). A great (and justified) concern with the Obama administration's response to the Pretty Good Recession was that monetary policy would lead to excessive inflation, put most succinctly (if least credibly) in the straw man argument of "if printing money works why don't we just print everyone a million dollars!!!!!11". But it turns out that after Obama was done personally strangling Osama bin Laden he personally strangled the dragon inflation. To the Commander-in-Chief!

[waywardgs]

The economy is good? This is why I'm paying $4.50 a gallon for gas

4.5 for gas? Man, try moving to one of the coasts, or even better, out of the country. See what 9, 10, 11 dollar gas feels like. In India the average day's wage will buy you one single gallon.
http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/gas-prices/


and $5.00 a lb. for ground beef? This is your idea of a good economy? I can buy Top of Iowa sirloin for cheaper than ground beef, something is out of whack,

So... buy top sirloin?


that inflation number is a lie, straight up.

It's actually doing better than that the past two years. Currently around 1.5%.
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/


You can post all the numbers you want when it comes to the economy, the fact is the voting public is not feeling this good economy you are touting.

It's true, the middle class hasn't felt the recovery nearly as much as the super rich. But that's because we live in an oligarchy!

[Laviticas]

No, that's called a fact.

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16165

Sure looks like they represent about the same percent of the population as whites. Now explain this minority / majority bullshit again?

[waywardgs]

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16165

Sure looks like they represent about the same percent of the population as whites. Now explain this minority / majority bullshit again?

If you're going to do global comparisons, you should reposition your thoughts about the american economy to reflect it's position relative to the rest of the globe as well. You wouldn't have much left to complain about.

[Laviticas]

If you're going to do global comparisons, you should reposition your thoughts about the american economy to reflect it's position relative to the rest of the globe as well. You wouldn't have much left to complain about.

What the fuck does the bullshit "minority" line used by the left have to do with how I feel about our economy? Obviously our economic structure has made for the largest economy in the world, it strives on human nature and it's inherent greed, it may not be perfect, but it works well.

If I follow your thoughts, you would have to admit, the white European financial structure is the best bar none, the countries with a white majority tend to have more stable economies, are you saying that whites Are superior and the rest of the races need a hand out to compete?

[waywardgs]

What the fuck does the bullshit "minority" line used by the left have to do with how I feel about our economy? Obviously our economic structure has made for the largest economy in the world, it strives on human nature and it's inherent greed, it may not be perfect, but it works well.

If I follow your thoughts, you would have to admit, the white European financial structure is the best bar none, the countries with a white majority tend to have more stable economies, are you saying that whites Are superior and the rest of the races need a hand out to compete?

What the fuck are you even talking about? You insinuated that blacks were no longer a minority. This confused everyone, because it's clearly not the case in the United States of America. You changed your line and claimed that you meant they weren't a minority globally, to which I responded that if you're going to be global in one comparison, you should, for the sake of consistency, be global in ALL your comparisons.

As far as the rest of your post goes- suggesting that I have to admit that the "white European financial structure" (I thought you hated the european systems of socialized health care, welfare programs, government handouts, etc, but I digress) and thus that whites are somehow superior, well, it's just a bunch of confused nonsense. The "white European financial structure" has historically built it's stability and success on the backs of the less fortunate throughout the world (see colonialism, post-colonial theory, et al.) It doesn't follow that this means other races are inferior, and you're being silly for suggesting such a thing.

[Laviticas]

What the fuck are you even talking about? You insinuated that blacks were no longer a minority. This confused everyone, because it's clearly not the case in the United States of America. You changed your line and claimed that you meant they weren't a minority globally, to which I responded that if you're going to be global in one comparison, you should, for the sake of consistency, be global in ALL your comparisons.

As far as the rest of your post goes- suggesting that I have to admit that the "white European financial structure" (I thought you hated the european systems of socialized health care, welfare programs, government handouts, etc, but I digress) and thus that whites are somehow superior, well, it's just a bunch of confused nonsense. The "white European financial structure" has historically built it's stability and success on the backs of the less fortunate throughout the world (see colonialism, post-colonial theory, et al.) It doesn't follow that this means other races are inferior, and you're being silly for suggesting such a thing.

No, actually I meant exactly what I said. This whole line of minority is nothing but bullshit. Same with the line of "On the backs of less fortunate" oh yes, except this is no concept that the Europeans came up with, this is human nature. Your world view blames whites for all our problems and it's simply not true.

It really seems folks with your world view only have history books that go back a couple hundred years.

If you are going to go with blacks being a minority and ignore the fact that they are not on the world stage, there is nothing more to argue, you are simply a racist.

[waywardgs]

The minority thing is just a statement of fact. Black people in america are a demographic minority. This is not up for debate.

Global demographics are different. Obviously.

By the way... how does it feel to play the race card, anyway? Calling people racists... that workin' for ya?

[Laviticas]

The minority thing is just a statement of fact. Black people in america are a demographic minority. This is not up for debate.

Global demographics are different. Obviously.

By the way... how does it feel to play the race card, anyway? Calling people racists... that workin' for ya?

Never said it was up for debate, Blacks are a minority in the US and we have the largest economy in the world. The US does not make up the entire world, how is it possible for a minority race on the world stage to be so successful and yet a minority race in the US is not able to function under your world view without special treatment? Do you feel it's not possible for blacks to be successful on their own?

Race card? Bro, you blame everything on Rich White people, that's a pretty damn good sign you're a racist.

[Latrinsorm]

http://www.sciencechatforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16165

Sure looks like they represent about the same percent of the population as whites. Now explain this minority / majority bullshit again?If you want to say that white's aren't a global majority, fine. This does not imply that blacks aren't a global minority. A majority is representing more than 50% of a population, everything else is a minority. It's often useful to talk about the largest minority, which is referred to as a plurality.
What the fuck does the bullshit "minority" line used by the left have to do with how I feel about our economy? Obviously our economic structure has made for the largest economy in the world, it strives on human nature and it's inherent greed, it may not be perfect, but it works well.It's really interesting to look through world history at economies that move from capitalism/socialism to a mixed model, or vice versa. In recent history the most relevant examples are America, China, and West and East Germany. The clear result is that mixed economies are superior to either pure model, which helps explain why everyone is going in that direction nowadays.
The US does not make up the entire world, how is it possible for a minority race on the world stage to be so successful and yet a minority race in the US is not able to function under your world view without special treatment? Do you feel it's not possible for blacks to be successful on their own?Blacks in the US have a specific history of treatment that puts them at a disadvantage when compared to the specific history of treatment of white people. This disadvantage is not insurmountable, especially in individual cases, but it is clearly present in aggregate. That black people were very successful in the Islamic Empire (for example) isn't relevant because we are not the Islamic Empire. Heck, Obama hasn't even instituted shariah law yet!

If I cut off both your legs then say "okay everyone race 100m", it would be absurd to expect you to win the race, because you're white. Also you would have no legs, that would hurt you too. You see what I'm getting at here? There are no clean slates in socioeconomics.

[waywardgs]

Never said it was up for debate, Blacks are a minority in the US and we have the largest economy in the world. The US does not make up the entire world, how is it possible for a minority race on the world stage to be so successful and yet a minority race in the US is not able to function under your world view without special treatment? Do you feel it's not possible for blacks to be successful on their own?

Race card? Bro, you blame everything on Rich White people, that's a pretty damn good sign you're a racist.


So what's your argument, stupid Africans couldn't invent the gun so they deserved to be slaves? Stupid Indians were too trusting when they accepted blankets covered in smallpox so fuck them? Your argument is manifest destiny v2.0. It's like you were born in the 1700's.

[Laviticas]

So what's your argument, stupid Africans couldn't invent the gun so they deserved to be slaves? Stupid Indians were too trusting when they accepted blankets covered in smallpox so fuck them? Your argument is manifest destiny v2.0. It's like you were born in the 1700's.

First get this through your thick skulls, Blacks are not the only victims to Slavery. Manifest Destiny was not the first attempt at land grabs, FFS I don't see the Italians being punished for the expansion of the Roman empire and the atrocities they committed, I don't see the tribes of Africa being punished for enslaving their own people, all that dribbles out of those whimpering lips are, damn those white devils.

Then you go on about the American Indian and smallpox infested blankets which were handed out by your precious Federal government, then in another thread you are more than happy to stand behind that Federal Government and their land confiscation schemes to protect the stolen lands as the price of food sky rockets.

You talk about the Black Slave and their strife, then stand behind the woman's right to choose to abort their children (never mind the choice of the female being aborted), when in fact Blacks are aborting their children at a larger rate than the other race when compared to their slice of the population.

When I put this all together, your world view comes off as being more dangerous than any of the complaints you have. You want to control wealth, end religious freedom, right to self defense, create special groups and support elimination of life to further that agenda. That last part is why I will never trust a liberal.

All your complaints about whites or any other of your bitches can all be summed up very simply, human nature. Greed does not know skin color, or gender, or sexual preferences. The only point I'm trying to make out of all this, you are NOT going to change human nature and every time we attempt to do so, it ends in a much worse circumstance.

So again I ask, do you believe black people are able to stand on their own without special treatment? Every other race seems to have managed, why do you think blacks are unable to?

[waywardgs]

First get this through your thick skulls, Blacks are not the only victims to Slavery. Manifest Destiny was not the first attempt at land grabs, FFS I don't see the Italians being punished for the expansion of the Roman empire and the atrocities they committed, I don't see the tribes of Africa being punished for enslaving their own people, all that dribbles out of those whimpering lips are, damn those white devils.

Then you go on about the American Indian and smallpox infested blankets which were handed out by your precious Federal government, then in another thread you are more than happy to stand behind that Federal Government and their land confiscation schemes to protect the stolen lands as the price of food sky rockets.

You talk about the Black Slave and their strife, then stand behind the woman's right to choose to abort their children (never mind the choice of the female being aborted), when in fact Blacks are aborting their children at a larger rate than the other race when compared to their slice of the population.

When I put this all together, your world view comes off as being more dangerous than any of the complaints you have. You want to control wealth, end religious freedom, right to self defense, create special groups and support elimination of life to further that agenda. That last part is why I will never trust a liberal.

All your complaints about whites or any other of your bitches can all be summed up very simply, human nature. Greed does not know skin color, or gender, or sexual preferences. The only point I'm trying to make out of all this, you are NOT going to change human nature and every time we attempt to do so, it ends in a much worse circumstance.

So again I ask, do you believe black people are able to stand on their own without special treatment? Every other race seems to have managed, why do you think blacks are unable to?

Black people are doing better than I would have anticipated given that they were property a handful of generations ago. Props to them. I don't believe the playing field is level; that isn't the same thing as saying blacks can't hack it. I just happen to have the presence of mind to recognize that inequality exists. The fact that you want to dismiss the fallout of institutionalized chattel slavery in america because it isn't the only instance of slavery in all of human history is childish. I also think that time matters. Your bringing up the roman empire is a non-starter. That was a very long time ago. Slavery in america wasn't that long ago, despite what you want to believe. 150 years- that would mean, if you were black, that your grandmother's mother (you're 44, correct?) would have likely been property.

As for your shot at me regarding the bundy fiasco, my view that bundy is a welfare farmer- and that the people who showed up ready to kill federal agents to protect a thief while he steals raw materials for his cattle are idiots- has nothing to do with my stance on the federal government. I have plenty of beef with the federal government, it's just a shame that the push for smaller government is spearheaded by a bunch of hypocritical halfwits who want to put their precious ladyfolk on the front lines to die first.

PS. I happen to be pro-choice AND pro-2nd amendment. Shocking, right?

[Laviticas]

Black people are doing better than I would have anticipated given that they were property a handful of generations ago. Props to them. I don't believe the playing field is level; that isn't the same thing as saying blacks can't hack it. I just happen to have the presence of mind to recognize that inequality exists. The fact that you want to dismiss the fallout of institutionalized chattel slavery in america because it isn't the only instance of slavery in all of human history is childish. I also think that time matters. Your bringing up the roman empire is a non-starter. That was a very long time ago. Slavery in america wasn't that long ago, despite what you want to believe. 150 years- that would mean, if you were black, that your grandmother's mother (you're 44, correct?) would have likely been property.

As for your shot at me regarding the bundy fiasco, my view that bundy is a welfare farmer- and that the people who showed up ready to kill federal agents to protect a thief while he steals raw materials for his cattle are idiots- has nothing to do with my stance on the federal government. I have plenty of beef with the federal government, it's just a shame that the push for smaller government is spearheaded by a bunch of hypocritical halfwits who want to put their precious ladyfolk on the front lines to die first.

PS. I happen to be pro-choice AND pro-2nd amendment. Shocking, right?

What are you not grasping here? What's the cut off line for reparations? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? 1000 years? 10,000 years? who makes this fucking call? You have no bias? if you say no you're lying, it's a part of our nature. Some of us like tall people of the opposite sex, short people , the same sex, some of us don't like fat people, some don't like skinny people..........the list is endless of our personal bias. You hate rich white people, that's your fucking choice, you want to steal their wealth, sorry you fucking failed at becoming rich, who cares.

Yea, rednecks showed up to defend this guy, against a government body that has a long history of fucking humans over, they killed his fucking cows and we pay $5.00 lb. for hamburger. What kind of fucking common sense does this make? So what, his cows ate some fucking grass, drank some water and shit fertilizer on otherwise non-fertile land.

Precious lady folk on the front lines? FFS I thought this was some new feminine good thing that women were now fighting, I wish you fucking people would make up your mind.

[waywardgs]

You hate rich white people, that's your fucking choice, you want to steal their wealth, sorry you fucking failed at becoming rich, who cares.

Easy now, you're the one who can't afford ground beef.

[waywardgs]

Precious lady folk on the front lines? FFS I thought this was some new feminine good thing that women were now fighting, I wish you fucking people would make up your mind.

Also...

http://content.headlineasia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/whoosh.gif

(hint: using human bodies as shields makes you a fucking coward. Doubly so if you want to hide behind a group that you also view as weak, mean to keep barefoot and pregnant, a group whose bodies you seek to legislate the use of, a group you pretend to protect with your false conservative chivalry. Damn it, I gave it away.)

[Laviticas]

Wayward, just answer the questions.

Do you believe black people are able to stand on their own without special treatment?

Every other race seems to have managed, why do you think blacks are unable to?


You know you're trapped with these two questions, this is why you won't answer them. So instead you try to poison the water, it's the same bullshit out of you guys, minus Latrine.

[waywardgs]

Wayward, just answer the questions.

Do you believe black people are able to stand on their own without special treatment?

Every other race seems to have managed, why do you think blacks are unable to?


You know you're trapped with these two questions, this is why you won't answer them. So instead you try to poison the water, it's the same bullshit out of you guys, minus Latrine.

I do. Unfortunately, the special treatment they've been getting is as second-class citizens. Get rid of that and watch a people flourish.

[waywardgs]

(inb4 LIBERAL WELFARE MAKES THEM SECOND-CLASS!!!111....)

[Laviticas]

I do. Unfortunately, the special treatment they've been getting is as second-class citizens. Get rid of that and watch a people flourish.

Wow, you fall right back into the same line of shit. Every race and gender has been treated like shit at one point or another, yet for some reason you think Blacks just can't do it on their own, why wayward? what is it about Blacks that makes you think they can't make it without special treatment?

[Laviticas]

Easy now, you're the one who can't afford ground beef.

Wait, you make more than me? That's not fucking fare, you had better pay more taxes.

[waywardgs]

Wow, you fall right back into the same line of shit. Every race and gender has been treated like shit at one point or another, yet for some reason you think Blacks just can't do it on their own, why wayward? what is it about Blacks that makes you think they can't make it without special treatment?

sigh. I think they CAN "do it on their own." CURRENT DAY, as in TODAY, they are still hamstrung by our SHORT history as a nation. So they have a rougher ride than white folks. It's not the same playing field. guy. It's better than it was, but it's still not right yet. Don't you want a more perfect union? Shouldn't equality be the goal?

[waywardgs]

Wait, you make more than me? That's not fucking fare, you had better pay more taxes.

That's what making more means... unless you're super-rich, in which case you can afford to escape taxes, buy elections to bend political policy to your will, and generally dodge most of the spirit of the constitution.

You're angry at the wrong people, Laviticas.

[Jarvan]

sigh. I think they CAN "do it on their own." CURRENT DAY, as in TODAY, they are still hamstrung by our SHORT history as a nation. So they have a rougher ride than white folks. It's not the same playing field. guy. It's better than it was, but it's still not right yet. Don't you want a more perfect union? Shouldn't equality be the goal?

I wonder what you think would make it an equal playing field.

I think Blacks do have it unfair, but not all of that is because of white people, or the system even. A lot of it has to do with them.

[waywardgs]

I wonder what you think would make it an equal playing field.

We can start with actually recognizing their civil rights- in practice, not just with words. Sentencing in the justice system is demonstrably unfair, hiring and housing practices are still unequal, wage inequality is clearly at work, and it is my honest belief that it IS NOT BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE ARE SHITTY.


I think Blacks do have it unfair, but not all of that is because of white people, or the system even. A lot of it has to do with them.

So it is your contention that there is some considerable difference, outside of history and society, that leads them to achieve less than white people? Would you categorize it as a biological difference?

[Laviticas]

That's what making more means... unless you're super-rich, in which case you can afford to escape taxes, buy elections to bend political policy to your will, and generally dodge most of the spirit of the constitution.

You're angry at the wrong people, Laviticas.

Define super rich Wayward?

Are you saying Blacks are incapable of doing without the white man, Wayward?

Are you saying whites have never had a tough go of it?

How many tens of thousands of white men died fighting to free the slaves? I know that's racist for them to have done this.

Present day? I thought slavery was abolished over a century ago?

Don't you think it's about time to end this whole racism bit, and realize that some people are just ignorant and that shit can't be fixed? You're never going to have a society %100 free of bias against one another?

Maybe stop making stupid fucking laws, like hate laws and understand that violence against anyone no matter what is illegal?

I'm all about a successful country, I want people judged on their merits and not whether I have x black people, x yellow people, x red people, x white people on my payroll or in my colleges.

Maybe stop worrying about the asshole ball club owner, the gold digging slut and maybe focus on the real victim, that being the x-wife.

[Rallorick]

Pseudo intellectual circular arguments... fun stuff!

[Wrathbringer]

Pseudo intellectual circular arguments... fun stuff!

Qft

[Thondalar]

We can start with actually recognizing their civil rights- in practice, not just with words.

There are very stiff penalties for violating a person's civil rights.


Sentencing in the justice system is demonstrably unfair,

What makes you think this?


hiring and housing practices are still unequal,

What makes you think this?


wage inequality is clearly at work,

What makes you think this?

[Jarvan]

We can start with actually recognizing their civil rights- in practice, not just with words. Sentencing in the justice system is demonstrably unfair, hiring and housing practices are still unequal, wage inequality is clearly at work, and it is my honest belief that it IS NOT BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE ARE SHITTY.



So it is your contention that there is some considerable difference, outside of history and society, that leads them to achieve less than white people? Would you categorize it as a biological difference?

What civil right of a black person is violated? Frankly, I think our Justice system is kinda joke.. when someone can hit someone with a car and kill them while under the influence, and get no jail time.. there is something wrong. Do more black people go to jail then white people? No. Percentage wise? Yes. Course there is a reason for that. More crime in the urban setting then in the rural setting. (comparable education and wealth) Now as for sentencing.. I haven't really looked into it myself. I wouldn't know if a 19 year old black kid knocking over a 7-11 is going to face more jail time then a 19 year old white kid. I also hate that there is even a range of time, I think every crime should have a mandatory time, period. None of this.. Oh you're rich.. you get less time/off, or you are (apparently) white.. you serve less time. Fuck that in the ear.

Hiring practices.. I have never seen it, doesn't mean it isn't real. But I haven't seen it. Every place I worked have been very diverse. Wage inequality is a myth, sorry. It just is. Oh sure.. maybe in the upper circle of a company, but otherwise it's bullshit. A Black man starting out at costco gets paid the same as a white man, if they are doing the same job. So that can suck an egg.

I never said black people are shitty.

I DO say that on the average, black people seem to think differently then other people. I had a good number of black friends in HS, and this was back in the 90's, and most of them thought the only way they could make it in life is if they were a rapper, an athlete, or in a gang. Now.. until the average black kid in say... Harlem, thinks he can make something out of himself and achieve a "good life" by working hard, going to school, and having a career.. there is nothing anyone can do to "help" them. Right now, I don't think that is the case.

I am not a anthropologist, biologist, or scientist.

So I really can't answer that. That being said...

The Irish in Early America...


During the Great Famine of the 1840's in Ireland, thousands fled for America
Many fleed to Boston, and in one year Boston's Irish population jumped from 30,000-100,000
Looking for labor many Irish turned to servitude. 70% of servants in Boston were Irish immigrants
Bostonians believed that the Irish were a servant race
Bostonians called their Irish female servants the "bridgets" or "biddys" and the males "paddys".Many Irish named their children after the two popular Catholic saints however the names carried derisive connotations in America and many tried to erase that legacy. Joseph Sr.'s mother named him Joseph instead of Patrick after his father and grandfather. And Joseph Sr.'s grandmother Bridget Murphy never named her daughters Bridget.
Bostonians derisively monikered potatoes "murphies"
Of the 70% of Irish that were servants, two thirds were Irish women.
Irish servants were noted to be full of melancholy and loneliness
Irish women suffered from high levels of mental illness
As a result, by 1908, there were more Irish than there were any other nationality in a mental hospital
The Know-Nothing Party-a political party in the late 19th century--developed with "native" Americans who hated the immigrant influx particularly the Irish.
Established working class America resented the Irish laborers who would work for anything
Employers would place signs with NINA scrawled across the front. NINA spelled out is No Irish Need Apply, this would often be seen next to the No Dogs Allowed signs.
In the 1870's & 80's, Irishman were portrayed on stage and in cartoons penned by famous cartoonist Thomas Nast, RF Outcault and other cartoonists as bumbling, idiots, erratic, pugnacious drunks

it's funny... but you could replace Irish with Black or "Negro" and it would sound a lot like prior to civil rights changes in America.

YET.. They seemed to do pretty well for themselves without really any help from anyone.

Not exactly the same.. but fairly close. Could also go with the Chinese as well if you like. There has been countless cases of discrimination and such in America.. it's odd that it seems ONLY the Black people can't overcome it.

[Warriorbird]

The only documented unfair sentencing areas in the justice system are drug possession and chance to get the death penalty. There are a lot of possession sentences though.

[cwolff]

What civil right of a black person is violated? Frankly, I think our Justice system is kinda joke.. when someone can hit someone with a car and kill them while under the influence, and get no jail time.. there is something wrong. Do more black people go to jail then white people? No. Percentage wise? Yes. Course there is a reason for that. More crime in the urban setting then in the rural setting. (comparable education and wealth) Now as for sentencing.. I haven't really looked into it myself. I wouldn't know if a 19 year old black kid knocking over a 7-11 is going to face more jail time then a 19 year old white kid. I also hate that there is even a range of time, I think every crime should have a mandatory time, period. None of this.. Oh you're rich.. you get less time/off, or you are (apparently) white.. you serve less time. Fuck that in the ear.

Hiring practices.. I have never seen it, doesn't mean it isn't real. But I haven't seen it. Every place I worked have been very diverse. Wage inequality is a myth, sorry. It just is. Oh sure.. maybe in the upper circle of a company, but otherwise it's bullshit. A Black man starting out at costco gets paid the same as a white man, if they are doing the same job. So that can suck an egg.

I never said black people are shitty.

I DO say that on the average, black people seem to think differently then other people. I had a good number of black friends in HS, and this was back in the 90's, and most of them thought the only way they could make it in life is if they were a rapper, an athlete, or in a gang. Now.. until the average black kid in say... Harlem, thinks he can make something out of himself and achieve a "good life" by working hard, going to school, and having a career.. there is nothing anyone can do to "help" them. Right now, I don't think that is the case.

I am not a anthropologist, biologist, or scientist.

So I really can't answer that. That being said...

The Irish in Early America...


During the Great Famine of the 1840's in Ireland, thousands fled for America
Many fleed to Boston, and in one year Boston's Irish population jumped from 30,000-100,000
Looking for labor many Irish turned to servitude. 70% of servants in Boston were Irish immigrants
Bostonians believed that the Irish were a servant race
Bostonians called their Irish female servants the "bridgets" or "biddys" and the males "paddys".Many Irish named their children after the two popular Catholic saints however the names carried derisive connotations in America and many tried to erase that legacy. Joseph Sr.'s mother named him Joseph instead of Patrick after his father and grandfather. And Joseph Sr.'s grandmother Bridget Murphy never named her daughters Bridget.
Bostonians derisively monikered potatoes "murphies"
Of the 70% of Irish that were servants, two thirds were Irish women.
Irish servants were noted to be full of melancholy and loneliness
Irish women suffered from high levels of mental illness
As a result, by 1908, there were more Irish than there were any other nationality in a mental hospital
The Know-Nothing Party-a political party in the late 19th century--developed with "native" Americans who hated the immigrant influx particularly the Irish.
Established working class America resented the Irish laborers who would work for anything
Employers would place signs with NINA scrawled across the front. NINA spelled out is No Irish Need Apply, this would often be seen next to the No Dogs Allowed signs.
In the 1870's & 80's, Irishman were portrayed on stage and in cartoons penned by famous cartoonist Thomas Nast, RF Outcault and other cartoonists as bumbling, idiots, erratic, pugnacious drunks

it's funny... but you could replace Irish with Black or "Negro" and it would sound a lot like prior to civil rights changes in America.

YET.. They seemed to do pretty well for themselves without really any help from anyone.

Not exactly the same.. but fairly close. Could also go with the Chinese as well if you like. There has been countless cases of discrimination and such in America.. it's odd that it seems ONLY the Black people can't overcome it.

You're left with two basic choices:
Choice 1: Black people are inferior
Choice 2: All Homo Sapiens are the same

If you believe all people are the same then you have to look at reasons for the lousy metrics from the African American community.

The Chinese and Irish had a huge advantage over Africans. They arrived with an intact culture and were able to form supportive communities. African's were not afforded that opportunity. Their culture was systematically destroyed. Emancipation was in 1863. The University of Alabama didn't integrate until 1953, 90 years later and it's a PUBLIC school. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 fully a century after Emancipation.

[Rallorick]

Jarvan grew up in a cliche. To be fair, all his Asian friends knew martial art and we're good at math. All his Jewish friends were rich and stingy. All his Indian friends owned a 7-11. This totally happened.

[Gelston]

Jarvan grew up in a cliche. To be fair, all his Asian friends knew martial art and we're good at math. All his Jewish friends were rich and stingy. All his Indian friends owned a 7-11. This totally happened.

Are you saying Asians can't be ninjas and good at math? Jews can't be rich and stingy? Indians can't own 7-11s? Why are you so racist?

[Latrinsorm]

What are you not grasping here? What's the cut off line for reparations? 50 years? 100 years? 200 years? 1000 years? 10,000 years?Think of it as a baseball diamond where someone has inexplicably dug a 20 foot hole between home and first. How long do you put dirt in the hole? Until it's filled.
Don't you think it's about time to end this whole racism bit, and realize that some people are just ignorant and that shit can't be fixed? You're never going to have a society %100 free of bias against one another?We're never going to have a society 100% free of murder either (even with universal surveillance) but that doesn't mean we're wasting money on homicide detectives.
Maybe stop making stupid fucking laws, like hate laws and understand that violence against anyone no matter what is illegal?Speaking of homicide detectives, we also have laws that violence against police officers is punished more severely. This does not imply that police are incapable of protecting themselves, or that we look down on them in any other way. It only implies that we have a special interest in discouraging violence against them. For police, because they are the last line of public defense against crime. For minorities, because they are disproportionately targeted for violence.
Wage inequality is a myth, sorry. It just is. Oh sure.. maybe in the upper circle of a company, but otherwise it's bullshit. A Black man starting out at costco gets paid the same as a white man, if they are doing the same job. So that can suck an egg.This feels familiar somehow. Check page 57 (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsrace2012.pdf). As with women, the wage gap is present in every occupation: food preparation, janitorial, secretarial, farming, construction. It is only more pronounced in professional occupations.
it's funny... but you could replace Irish with Black or "Negro" and it would sound a lot like prior to civil rights changes in America.Only if you equate paid, voluntary servitude with unpaid, involuntary servitude.

[Latrinsorm]

You're left with two basic choices:
Choice 1: Black people are inferior
Choice 2: All Homo Sapiens are the same

If you believe all people are the same then you have to look at reasons for the lousy metrics from the African American community.

The Chinese and Irish had a huge advantage over Africans. They arrived with an intact culture and were able to form supportive communities. African's were not afforded that opportunity. Their culture was systematically destroyed. Emancipation was in 1863. The University of Alabama didn't integrate until 1953, 90 years later and it's a PUBLIC school. The Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964 fully a century after Emancipation.Oh yeah? Then explain all the Igbotowns in 1800s New York.

[waywardgs]

And as for the housing discrimination thing, you guys realize you're posting in a thread about a real estate mogul who was sued twice for violating the equal housing rights act, right?

[Laviticas]

Think of it as a baseball diamond where someone has inexplicably dug a 20 foot hole between home and first. How long do you put dirt in the hole? Until it's filled.We're never going to have a society 100% free of murder either (even with universal surveillance) but that doesn't mean we're wasting money on homicide detectives.Speaking of homicide detectives, we also have laws that violence against police officers is punished more severely. This does not imply that police are incapable of protecting themselves, or that we look down on them in any other way. It only implies that we have a special interest in discouraging violence against them. For police, because they are the last line of public defense against crime. For minorities, because they are disproportionately targeted for violence.This feels familiar somehow. Check page 57 (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsrace2012.pdf). As with women, the wage gap is present in every occupation: food preparation, janitorial, secretarial, farming, construction. It is only more pronounced in professional occupations.Only if you equate paid, voluntary servitude with unpaid, involuntary servitude.

So we go back to mans beginnings? I know a lot of Jews are owed a lot of money then, those pyramids must have been a bitch.

So violence against one group of people is worse than violence against another group, that's racism in it's purest form. Cops are not a race of people.

Disproportionately targeted for violence? Yea if they would stop shooting each other, I know the south side of Chicago is a loving area full of rainbows and butterflies.

The Irish: Was that voluntary servitude when they were handed a gun and told to go fight for the Union as soon as they stepped off the boats to gain citizenship. Or should they just have stayed in Ireland and starved to death?

Wage gap: Does not matter to me, if you can pull the same weight, you deserve the same pay. Just so happens women are better at some skillsets than men and men better at other skillsets than women. Now you can call me a sexist, I guess I can look in a mirror and see that men and women are not the same, physically or mentally. Have never understood why the left shames a woman for being a woman, or acts like having a child is a form of punishment. "I don't want my daughter punished with a child" ~ BHO

[waywardgs]

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

That says "more perfect."
The founding fathers understood that perfection wasn't possible, but was something to strive for. That means doing what you can.

Do you hate the founding fathers, lavaticas?

(Also of note are the bits about the general welfare and justice.)

[Laviticas]

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

That says "more perfect."
The founding fathers understood that perfection wasn't possible, but was something to strive for. That means doing what you can.

Do you hate the founding fathers, lavaticas?

(Also of note are the bits about the general welfare and justice.)

Yet, no where in there does it say, make laws for special groups of people. Equal = Equal not equal = I'm black I need special laws. Point to me one civil right that is being denied to blacks in todays age by our government? just one.

[waywardgs]

Yet, no where in there does it say, make laws for special groups of people. Equal = Equal not equal = I'm black I need special laws. Point to me one civil right that is being denied to blacks in todays age by our government? just one.

Not by the government (although one could argue that policies like nyc's stop-and-frisk do). But by lawbreakers like mr. sterling here. This is why we have a government, and laws.

[Thondalar]

That says "more perfect."
The founding fathers understood that perfection wasn't possible, but was something to strive for. That means doing what you can.

This isn't in dispute. As I've said numerous times, I don't think anyone here is evil and wants to destroy the world. We all want to do what's right, we just disagree on what that is. If we could approach discussions from that direction instead of "you hate America", I think it would be a bit better for everyone involved.


(Also of note are the bits about the general welfare and justice.)

Again, I don't think anyone disputes this. However, if you research the Founders, you can only come to one conclusion...the term "general welfare" doesn't refer to massive government programs, it refers to not having government get in the way of peoples' ability to pursue happiness. Justice is equally important to a successful society, but currently our federal US Code of Law is over 200,000 pages long...and that's just federal laws.

It is my firm belief that we are at the point of overcompensation.

[Gelston]

This isn't in dispute. As I've said numerous times, I don't think anyone here is evil and wants to destroy the world.

I do.

[Jeril]

I do.

You don't count.

[Laviticas]

Not by the government (although one could argue that policies like nyc's stop-and-frisk do). But by lawbreakers like mr. sterling here. This is why we have a government, and laws.

In this case of asshole Mr. Sterling, no laws were broken, he simply spoke ignorant words. Though the gold digging whore did break laws, but this is ok right, because she's black?

[Latrinsorm]

So we go back to mans beginnings? I know a lot of Jews are owed a lot of money then, those pyramids must have been a bitch.It's irrelevant how long ago something happened, because by definition we can't make restitution to dead victims or punish dead perpetrators. All that matters is the state of play today. If you can demonstrate that there is a Jewish wage gap, then we should take action about it.
So violence against one group of people is worse than violence against another group, that's racism in it's purest form. Cops are not a race of people.If I claim that more violence against one group is bad, that necessarily implies that all violence is equally bad per capita. 1% murdered black people is as bad as 1% murdered white people, the problem is that it isn't 1% to 1%.
The Irish: Was that voluntary servitude when they were handed a gun and told to go fight for the Union as soon as they stepped off the boats to gain citizenship. Or should they just have stayed in Ireland and starved to death?Forced military drafts were a big problem, and it's good that they're gone. Even still, you and I are all for programs that give veterans special treatment, because they're incapable of doing anything without civilians' help. Right? :)
Wage gap: Does not matter to me, if you can pull the same weight, you deserve the same pay. Just so happens women are better at some skillsets than men and men better at other skillsets than women. Now you can call me a sexist, I guess I can look in a mirror and see that men and women are not the same, physically or mentally.This is very much like Jarvan's argument, and it fails in the same way when you see the wage gap exists in unskilled labor, too.

[Latrinsorm]

In this case of asshole Mr. Sterling, no laws were broken, he simply spoke ignorant words. Though the gold digging whore did break laws, but this is ok right, because she's black?She didn't break any laws, because she didn't publicize the tapes. Recording someone at their request is legal.
However, if you research the Founders, you can only come to one conclusion...the term "general welfare" doesn't refer to massive government programs, it refers to not having government get in the way of peoples' ability to pursue happiness.You can only come to one conclusion, but that says more about you than it does the data.

[waywardgs]

In this case of asshole Mr. Sterling, no laws were broken, he simply spoke ignorant words. Though the gold digging whore did break laws, but this is ok right, because she's black?

Im talking about his housing discrimination lawsuits. Please try to keep up.

[Thondalar]

Think of it as a baseball diamond where someone has inexplicably dug a 20 foot hole between home and first. How long do you put dirt in the hole? Until it's filled.

I think you could get a majority to agree on when a hole is filled, because there would be measurable physical evidence that the hole is indeed filled. Human nature isn't nearly that simple.


We're never going to have a society 100% free of murder either (even with universal surveillance) but that doesn't mean we're wasting money on homicide detectives.

Again, terrible example. There are no bias police. (yet)


Speaking of homicide detectives, we also have laws that violence against police officers is punished more severely. This does not imply that police are incapable of protecting themselves, or that we look down on them in any other way. It only implies that we have a special interest in discouraging violence against them. For police, because they are the last line of public defense against crime. For minorities, because they are disproportionately targeted for violence.

In both cases, they are emotional responses that have very little actual impact on anything. But it's what we do, so whatever.


This feels familiar somehow. Check page 57 (http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsrace2012.pdf). As with women, the wage gap is present in every occupation: food preparation, janitorial, secretarial, farming, construction. It is only more pronounced in professional occupations.

Notice how much higher the median pay is for Asians than even whites? Now let's look a bit further up the chart at the overwhelming number of Asians in the job market with at least a bachelor's degree, compared to whites. You think those things might be related somehow? A difference in median pay isn't because there are raging racist employers holding the black man down. If you want to discuss why blacks are less educated, on average, that's fine...but don't try to act like it's racism in the workplace.

Anecdotal as it is, I recently promoted a black guy to management...and guess what? I pay him 10k less a year than I do my other two managers, both of whom are white. Because he's black, right? No...because he doesn't have a college degree and doesn't have as much experience. But he's reliable, responsible, and does a good job, so I promoted him to a few k over the company minimum. If he keeps doing a good job he can get raises annually until he's at the same level as the other two, or promoted further up the ladder...but I simply can't start him at the same salary as people who are entirely more qualified. I'm almost positive I'm not the only employer in this country in that situation.

[Thondalar]

You can only come to one conclusion, but that says more about you than it does the data.

If you have some data that I've apparently missed, I'd love to see it.

[Laviticas]

It's irrelevant how long ago something happened, because by definition we can't make restitution to dead victims or punish dead perpetrators. All that matters is the state of play today. If you can demonstrate that there is a Jewish wage gap, then we should take action about it.If I claim that more violence against one group is bad, that necessarily implies that all violence is equally bad per capita. 1% murdered black people is as bad as 1% murdered white people, the problem is that it isn't 1% to 1%.Forced military drafts were a big problem, and it's good that they're gone. Even still, you and I are all for programs that give veterans special treatment, because they're incapable of doing anything without civilians' help. Right? :)This is very much like Jarvan's argument, and it fails in the same way when you see the wage gap exists in unskilled labor, too.

Actually latrine I do not support special programs for the military, unless they are injured on duty. Entering the military is voluntary.

How many of these slaves are still alive today, Latrine?

You're right it's not 1% to 1%, yet I don't think it's whites killing blacks in this instance, why do they need special laws because they are killing each other?

The wage gap also exists within the administration that you all so love. Like I said, if they can pull the same weight, they deserve the same pay, not an issue with me. Not sure why you brought this up, when I agree.

[Laviticas]

Im talking about his housing discrimination lawsuits. Please try to keep up.

And he paid his debt for those lawsuits, if he lost. Did he lose these lawsuits? I'm not sure. This does not change what his current situation is, he broke no laws, yes he's a scumbag, great, the worlds full of assholes. Are we going to start making laws against assholes, are you going to prove me right on one of my previous comments?

[waywardgs]

And he paid his debt for those lawsuits, if he lost. Did he lose these lawsuits? I'm not sure. This does not change what his current situation is, he broke no laws, yes he's a scumbag, great, the worlds full of assholes. Are we going to start making laws against assholes, are you going to prove me right on one of my previous comments?

Yes he lost. One suit was brought by the DoJ. But the point is the law he violated, the housing discrimination act, seems to be one of those laws you dislike.

Regardless, if you think mr sterling is the only one doing stuff like this you'd be wrong.

[Laviticas]

She didn't break any laws, because she didn't publicize the tapes. Recording someone at their request is legal.You can only come to one conclusion, but that says more about you than it does the data.

I was under the impression she recorded this without his knowledge. Honestly I have not followed this story because it's all bullshit to me, I can take one look at these people and know they are fucked up anyhow, you got the old dickbag that is tapping the welding mask wearing gold digger. I mean this is far out science fiction shit, why should I give two shits about these fucked up people?

[Laviticas]

Yes he lost. One suit was brought by the DoJ. But the point is the law he violated, the housing discrimination act, seems to be one of those laws you dislike.

Regardless, if you think mr sterling is the only one doing stuff like this you'd be wrong.


So he paid his debt? Are you suggesting double punishment?

And you're right I do have issues with equal housing laws. That's private property, if they receive no government funding should a person not have a right like any other business to not serve who they chose? Why would you want to give a racist your money anyhow?

[waywardgs]

So he paid his debt? Are you suggesting double punishment?

And you're right I do have issues with equal housing laws. That's private property, if they receive no government funding should a person not have a right like any other business to not serve who they chose? Why would you want to give a racist your money anyhow?

If you're ok with discrimination, I'm not sure there's much more to discuss. If you can't see how discrimination can negatively affect a population, we definitely don't have anything else to discuss.

[Laviticas]

If you're ok with discrimination, I'm not sure there's much more to discuss. If you can't see how discrimination can negatively affect a population, we definitely don't have anything else to discuss.

So you're going to fall right back to the same line of bullshit? You're world view is perfectly happy with discrimination, you even support laws that discriminate. If you want to retain consistency, then all our ball clubs MUST have the correct proportion of all races and genders, no matter what their performance, our teams must represent all the colors of the racial rainbow. We must end any associations that are defined by gender or race, no more MAD, no more NAACP, no Negro college fund absolutely none of it.

[cwolff]

So you're going to fall right back to the same line of bullshit? You're world view is perfectly happy with discrimination, you even support laws that discriminate. If you want to retain consistency, then all our ball clubs MUST have the correct proportion of all races and genders, no matter what their performance, our teams must represent all the colors of the racial rainbow. We must end any associations that are defined by gender or race, no more MAD, no more NAACP, no Negro college fund absolutely none of it.

Why are you so threatened by minority associations or programs to help minorities even the playing field? You're still a white guy in the U.S.A. That's a pretty powerful thing. Appreciate it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

[Laviticas]

Why are you so threatened by minority associations or programs to help minorities even the playing field? You're still a white guy in the U.S.A. That's a pretty powerful thing. Appreciate it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik

I'm not threatened by it, it's you folks that are trying to make us all the same.

Yea, I have had such the privileged life. Raising my four kids in a 2 bedroom apartment, it was awesome. Yet somehow we managed without government handouts and special laws. You know who I blame for my situation? Myself.

Or I can talk about my fathers privileged life growing up as a poor dirt farmer in southern Iowa with his three brothers, they lived in a 2 bedroom farmhouse that had no insulation and they would save their newspapers to stuff in the walls. They went to school in a 1 room schoolhouse that served as church as well, their Christmas gift was a pair of work boots and they darned their socks. It was not until the farm could no longer support the family that they moved to the city and my grandfather took on a job as a diesel mechanic, this was the first time my father had ever seen a TV, this was 1962.

Yet somehow all 3 boys managed to become successful without government help or special laws.

[cwolff]

I'm not threatened by it, it's you folks that are trying to make us all the same.

Yea, I have had such the privileged life. Raising my four kids in a 2 bedroom apartment, it was awesome. Yet somehow we managed without government handouts and special laws. You know who I blame for my situation? Myself.

Or I can talk about my fathers privileged life growing up as a poor dirt farmer in southern Iowa with his three brothers, they lived in a 2 bedroom farmhouse that had no insulation and they would save their newspapers to stuff in the walls. They went to school in a 1 room schoolhouse that served as church as well, their Christmas gift was a pair of work boots and they darned their socks. It was not until the farm could no longer support the family that they moved to the city and my grandfather took on a job as a diesel mechanic, this was the first time my father had ever seen a TV, this was 1962.

Yet somehow all 3 boys managed to become successful without government help or special laws.

You sound threatened, that's for sure. Bitching about how the gold digger isn't getting attacked because she's a minority, complaining about the composition of sports teams, defending Sterling in the court of public opinion. Then you justify it all with that tired old saw about "I'm not privileged, I worked for everything I got!" We hear that here so often it's cliche. No one cares that you walked uphill both ways to school in the snow.

[Laviticas]

You sound threatened, that's for sure. Bitching about how the gold digger isn't getting attacked because she's a minority, complaining about the composition of sports teams, defending Sterling in the court of public opinion. Then you justify it all with that tired old saw about "I'm not privileged, I worked for everything I got!" We hear that here so often it's cliche. No one cares that you walked uphill both ways to school in the snow.

Cwolff, show me where I support this guy? How many times have I called him a racist, a pig, a dickbag?

I did work for everything I have, you fuck. I Work my fingers to the fucking bone, there's nights I can hardly walk at the end of my shift.

She's fucking gold digging whore, I don't give a fuck about her skin color, just like I don't give a fuck about anyone else's skin color.

GTFO you fucking cunt.

[Tgo01]

You have to forgive cwolff. The democrats openly admitted they wanted to play the race card this election cycle so he's just doing his part by calling everyone who doesn't agree with him a racist.

[Latrinsorm]

I think you could get a majority to agree on when a hole is filled, because there would be measurable physical evidence that the hole is indeed filled. Human nature isn't nearly that simple.

Again, terrible example. There are no bias police. (yet)I didn't claim there were bias police. I merely pointed out a case where that majority you described have no problem with special treatment. Ask Terry, it's called a reductio ad absurdum.
Notice how much higher the median pay is for Asians than even whites? Now let's look a bit further up the chart at the overwhelming number of Asians in the job market with at least a bachelor's degree, compared to whites. You think those things might be related somehow? A difference in median pay isn't because there are raging racist employers holding the black man down. If you want to discuss why blacks are less educated, on average, that's fine...but don't try to act like it's racism in the workplace.

Anecdotal as it is, I recently promoted a black guy to management...and guess what? I pay him 10k less a year than I do my other two managers, both of whom are white. Because he's black, right? No...because he doesn't have a college degree and doesn't have as much experience. But he's reliable, responsible, and does a good job, so I promoted him to a few k over the company minimum. If he keeps doing a good job he can get raises annually until he's at the same level as the other two, or promoted further up the ladder...but I simply can't start him at the same salary as people who are entirely more qualified. I'm almost positive I'm not the only employer in this country in that situation.Like Jarvan's observation about the professional environment, your observation can be correct without explaining the entire wage gap, and that happens to be the case. There aren't a lot of bachelor's degrees in the janitorial environment, but black janitors get paid less than white janitors.
If you have some data that I've apparently missed, I'd love to see it.The data isn't the problem.

[Latrinsorm]

Actually latrine I do not support special programs for the military, unless they are injured on duty. Entering the military is voluntary.Oh. I'd keep that to yourself if I was you.
How many of these slaves are still alive today, Latrine?The victims of that past are all dead, and as I said that's irrelevant. All men might be created equal in the eyes of the Lord, but they sure as heck aren't born equal in America.
You're right it's not 1% to 1%, yet I don't think it's whites killing blacks in this instance, why do they need special laws because they are killing each other?The disproportionate part being targeted is blacks being killed for being black, which happens more than 4 to 1 to the same for white people.
The wage gap also exists within the administration that you all so love. Like I said, if they can pull the same weight, they deserve the same pay, not an issue with me. Not sure why you brought this up, when I agree.I brought it up because Jarvan said it didn't exist.

[Tgo01]

it's called a reductio ad absurdum.

So is your penis.

[cwolff]

You have to forgive cwolff. The democrats openly admitted they wanted to play the race card this election cycle so he's just doing his part by calling everyone who doesn't agree with him a racist.

nice trolling. Keep it up. If this doesn't work you could always google for another minority to criticize.


Cwolff, show me where I support this guy? How many times have I called him a racist, a pig, a dickbag?

I did work for everything I have, you fuck. I Work my fingers to the fucking bone, there's nights I can hardly walk at the end of my shift.

She's fucking gold digging whore, I don't give a fuck about her skin color, just like I don't give a fuck about anyone else's skin color.

GTFO you fucking cunt.

It's true, you've not worked as hard to support him as Tg and some of the others have. You are indirectly though. When told of his losses in court you bring up some sort of double jeopardy and you're saying, "he's a sleazebag but so is she!" Why she even factors into this is beyond me. What need is there for this 2 wrongs argument at all? V Stiviano has no power. She's not a billionaire. For some reason you feel the need to counter the Sterling criticisms by diverting attention to other perceived wrong doers. That's why I say you are defending him.

[Latrinsorm]

So is your penis.In bed!

...:(

[Tgo01]

nice trolling. Keep it up. If this doesn't work you could always google for another minority to criticize.

See? Proof!


It's true, you've not worked as hard to support him as Tg and some of the others have.

I supported Sterling?

LAWL!

I'd ask you for some examples but we all know you won't bother, am I right? :D

Or if you do it will just be more "See? He disagreed with me therefore Tgo01 = racist!"

[cwolff]

See? Proof!



I supported Sterling?

LAWL!

I'd ask you for some examples but we all know you won't bother, am I right? :D

Or if you do it will just be more "See? He disagreed with me therefore Tgo01 = racist!"

I already listed your comments. Remember? Disparage the players, Disparage the woman, Defend Sterling, Realize he's indefensible and disparage the woman again. Short memory or what?

[Tgo01]

I already listed your comments. Remember? Disparage the players, Disparage the woman, Defend Sterling, Realize he's indefensible and disparage the woman again. Short memory or what?

You're too much. I ask for proof of me supporting Sterling and all you got is "But you disparaged the woman and the players!" and throw in a very vague "you defended Sterling."

I also love how you refer to her as "the woman." You're making Democrats proud right this minute :)

Wasn't it you who was doing the whole "us vs them" argument for a while a few weeks ago? So in your mind I have to be totally against Sterling and agree with everyone else involved in this whole fiasco and if I dare to say anything bad about anyone else involved then I'm just a racist?

Too much dude, too much. You should start charging for this.

[cwolff]

You're too much. I ask for proof of me supporting Sterling and all you got is "But you disparaged the woman and the players!" and throw in a very vague "you defended Sterling."

I also love how you refer to her as "the woman." You're making Democrats proud right this minute :)

Wasn't it you who was doing the whole "us vs them" argument for a while a few weeks ago? So in your mind I have to be totally against Sterling and agree with everyone else involved in this whole fiasco and if I dare to say anything bad about anyone else involved then I'm just a racist?

Too much dude, too much. You should start charging for this.

I've clearly stated my thoughts on your racism and have not brought up how ingroup outgroup is at work in this case.

[Tgo01]

I've clearly stated my thoughts on your racism and have not brought up how ingroup outgroup is at work in this case.


You have to forgive cwolff. The democrats openly admitted they wanted to play the race card this election cycle so he's just doing his part by calling everyone who doesn't agree with him a racist.

.

[cwolff]

Now you're defending Sterling by saying that the attacks on him are politically motivated for the next elections? You've got a screw loose Tg.

[Tgo01]

Now you're defending Sterling by saying that the attacks on him are politically motivated for the next elections? You've got a screw loose Tg.

First of all I'm not "defending" Sterling but barring that...Aren't they? Weren't Democrats quick to claim Sterling was a Republican? Weren't Democrats quick to point out he is a registered Republican? In fact, didn't you post that on these forums?

You don't think this whole thing is political? Obama got involved, Harry Reid got involved. It's another thing to divert attention away from the real things wrong with this country.

Where was all of this outrage when Sterling was being sued for unfair housing practices? Oh right, nowhere because then Democrats and their supporters might have to actually explain why they aren't doing more to help the people Sterling was screwing over in the first place.

But this one works out much better! He dared to say something bad about a popular athlete, he dared to involve a popular national sport into the center of it all. Why, everyone can relate to this shit now. He said something bad about all blacks, not just poor downtrodden blacks that everyone forgot about a long time ago.

You've been played, cwolff, and going by the fact that you actually considered it a bad thing that I wanted to listen to the recording myself instead of relying on second hand information from pundits, I have a feeling you'll be played again.

[waywardgs]

I'm amused by how often conservatives cry racism. It's especially funny when with one breath they condemn someone for acknowledging that race plays a role in society and in the very next breath they scream about reverse racism. According to my rep, I'm the biggest racist on the PC. Lol.

[cwolff]

First of all I'm not "defending" sterling but barring that...Aren't they? Weren't Democrats quick to claim Sterling was a Republican? Weren't Democrats quick to point out he is a registered Republican? In fact, didn't you post that on these forums?

You don't think this whole thing is political? Obama got involved, Harry Reid got involved. It's another thing to divert attention away from the real things wrong with this country.

Where was all of this outrage when Sterling was being sued for unfair housing practices? Oh right, nowhere because then Democrats and their supporters might have to actually explain why they aren't doing more to help the people Sterling was screwing over in the first place.

But this one works out much better! He dared to say something bad about a popular athlete, he dared to involve a popular national sport into the center of it all. Why, everyone can relate to this shit now. He said something bad about all blacks, not just poor downtrodden blacks that everyone forgot about a long time ago.

You've been played, cwolff, and going by the fact that you actually considered it a bad thing that I wanted to listen to the recording myself instead of relying on second hand information from pundits. I have a feeling you'll be played again.

It's not political. He's just a bigot who got called out. That's probably why you have so much empathy for him and not so much for others.


I'm amused by how often conservatives cry racism. It's especially funny when with one breath they condemn someone for acknowledging that race plays a role in society and in the very next breath they scream about reverse racism. According to my rep, I'm the biggest racist on the PC. Lol.

No kidding. Mention racial inequality they scream "race card."

[Tgo01]

It's not political.

Well as long as you say so! Holy shit! Nothing like countering 10 sentences of arguments with "Nuh uh!" Do you write your own material?


He's just a bigot who got called out.

Why wasn't he called out 10 years ago when he was fucking with people's lives? Where were you? You were calling on the NBA to ban his ass right? Oh no wait, no you weren't. Because you didn't give a fuck.


That's probably why you have so much empathy for him and not so much for others.

Another "you disagree with me therefore you're racist" line. Keep'em coming, cwolff. I'm sure you'll convince someone someday.

[Laviticas]

Wow, seriously.

If this all you guys have, you may as well kiss the elections goodbye, the general public is so fucking tired of your race game. Tired of being told how "we didn't build that". Tired of being told how bad America is.

How about you guys try pulling God from your platform again, that would be a hoot watching your party telling you to shut the fuck up once again. Leaches and losers, the extremists of the Democrat party.

God Cwolff, I wish you would run for office and tell everyone how they didn't work for what they have in one of your speeches. Then make some off the wall joke about burning Christians, ah fuck that would be a winner. Showing the true face of the Democrat party.

[Back]

First of all I'm not "defending" Sterling but barring that...Aren't they? Weren't Democrats quick to claim Sterling was a Republican? Weren't Democrats quick to point out he is a registered Republican? In fact, didn't you post that on these forums?

Actually the first person I saw try to politically label Sterling was PB. After he posted in the "dumb things liberals say" thread I pointed out to him that Sterling is a registered republican.


You don't think this whole thing is political? Obama got involved, Harry Reid got involved. It's another thing to divert attention away from the real things wrong with this country.

Having an opinion and getting involved are two different things. Neither Obama or Reid were involved with the NBA's decision.

[cwolff]

Actually the first person I saw try to politically label Sterling was PB. After he posted in the "dumb things liberals say" thread I pointed out to him that Sterling is a registered republican.



Having an opinion and getting involved are two different things. Neither Obama or Reid were involved with the NBA's decision.

The sad thing is that although you're correct neither Tg nor Laviticas care. It disrupts their inner narrative so it's discarded.

[Tgo01]

Actually the first person I saw try to politically label Sterling was PB.

I'm pretty sure was that in response to Democrats quickly deciding he must be a Republican because he held racist views. If you think PB was the first person in the world to try to classify his political status well...


Having an opinion and getting involved are two different things. Neither Obama or Reid were involved with the NBA's decision.

You don't think they indirectly influenced the NBA's decision? Really? You don't think the pressure was mounting on this guy? You don't think he was fielding phone calls and emails and probably even a death threat or two?

While you're buying that bull I have a bridge to sell you.


The sad thing is that although you're correct neither Tg nor Laviticas care.

Uh-oh. Looks like cwolff ran out of counter arguments and got tired of typing "nuh uh!" over and over again.

[Back]

I'm pretty sure was that in response to Democrats quickly deciding he must be a Republican because he held racist views. If you think PB was the first person in the world to try to classify his political status well...



You don't think they indirectly influenced the NBA's decision? Really? You don't think the pressure was mounting on this guy? You don't think he was fielding phone calls and emails and probably even a death threat or two?

While you're buying that bull I have a bridge to sell you.



Uh-oh. Looks like cwolff ran out of counter arguments and got tired of typing "nuh uh!" over and over again.

Sterling's politics never even crossed my mind until PB posted. So if a politician makes a comment about it they are involved? No republican has anything to say about it? C'mon, Tg. You are trying to hard to find things that simply aren't there.

[Tgo01]

Sterling's politics never even crossed my mind until PB posted.

That may be so but that doesn't have anything to do with what I said.


So if a politician makes a comment about it they are involved?

What do you call it if not getting involved? So Obama says something about this in a world wide televised speech and that's not getting involved?


No republican has anything to say about it?

I don't recall ever saying that but I suppose it's possible I did.


C'mon, Tg. You are trying to hard to find things that simply aren't there.

Ironic given the quote right about this one.

[cwolff]

I'm pretty sure was that in response to Democrats quickly deciding he must be a Republican because he held racist views. If you think PB was the first person in the world to try to classify his political status well...



You don't think they indirectly influenced the NBA's decision? Really? You don't think the pressure was mounting on this guy? You don't think he was fielding phone calls and emails and probably even a death threat or two?

While you're buying that bull I have a bridge to sell you.



Uh-oh. Looks like cwolff ran out of counter arguments and got tired of typing "nuh uh!" over and over again.

The first I heard was the Sterling had given money to democrats albeit in small amounts. This narrative was broadcast by Fox and Limbaugh. Days later we learned that Sterling was a registered republican.


Actually Donald Sterling is a Republican
After several conservative publications claimed racist Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling was a Democrat -- primarily because of political contributions made to several candidates -- Mother Jones finds that he's actually a registered Republican.

"There's little reason to get excited about Sterling's political affiliation. But if you choose to do so, you ought to get it right."

The above quote is how I've seen it reported.

No, I don't think Obama or the democrats influenced the NBA. What influenced them is that he's a fucking bigot. They took action and if they didn't the players and fans would have. The fact that you are now calling this a politically motivated conspiracy theory is pathetic even for Tg logic.

[Laviticas]

Sterling's politics never even crossed my mind until PB posted. So if a politician makes a comment about it they are involved? No republican has anything to say about it? C'mon, Tg. You are trying to hard to find things that simply aren't there.

The fact that any politician is even involved is a fucking shame, considering the state of the Union. But no go ahead and beat you race drum and I'll start posting videos of all the wonderful activity of the peaceful left.

[Laviticas]

Wallmart flash mob:

http://youtu.be/KHUB8HVKUJc

[cwolff]

The fact that any politician is even involved is a fucking shame, considering the state of the Union. But no go ahead and beat you race drum and I'll start posting videos of all the wonderful activity of the peaceful left.

Making a comment is not = to "being involved." You guys are too much. You have absolutely nothing to say yet you keep typing dumber and dumber shit.

[Laviticas]

Beat Whitey night: (note, the kid doing the stabbing got off because he was a basketball star)

http://youtu.be/VhmxWyli0Yw

[Laviticas]

Mall riot over a fucking concert:

http://youtu.be/SbXrIbUlMHE

[Laviticas]

another riot over a fucking concert:

http://youtu.be/I6AwXEDs5Gs

[waywardgs]

Beat Whitey night: (note, the kid doing the stabbing got off because he was a basketball star)

http://youtu.be/VhmxWyli0Yw

Watch out, Lav, they're comin to get ya!

[cwolff]

No one's going to watch your videos. First of all, I don't think anyone understands the relevance. In any case, you better provide a better description than riot at a concert.

[Laviticas]

Occupy Oakland destruction of Public property and display of hatred for their country:

http://youtu.be/38gIB-d2A3M

[Tgo01]

The first I heard was the Sterling had given money to democrats albeit in small amounts. This narrative was broadcast by Fox and Limbaugh. Days later we learned that Sterling was a registered republican.

"Days" later. Give me a break. It happened at pretty much the same time, why do you think that is?


No, I don't think Obama or the democrats influenced the NBA.

Of course you think that.


What influenced them is that he's a fucking bigot.

He was a fucking bigot 10 years ago, why wasn't he kicked out then? What changed?


They took action and if they didn't the players and fans would have.

And why do you think the players and the fans would have taken action this time? What changed?


The fact that you are now calling this a politically motivated conspiracy theory is pathetic even for Tg logic.

No actually it's pretty spot on. I've given reasons and examples and arguments and all you've given is "nuh uh!"

[Laviticas]

Watch out, Lav, they're comin to get ya!

MMMMMM, taste the racism

[waywardgs]

No one's going to watch your videos. First of all, I don't think anyone understands the relevance. In any case, you better provide a better description than riot at a concert.

I understand the irrelevance. Does that count?

[Laviticas]

No one's going to watch your videos. First of all, I don't think anyone understands the relevance. In any case, you better provide a better description than riot at a concert.

Keep telling yourself that bud, personally I think this is the goal of some of you people. You want to see a race war.

[cwolff]

"Days" later. Give me a break. It happened at pretty much the same time, why do you think that is?



Of course you think that.



He was a fucking bigot 10 years ago, why wasn't he kicked out then? What changed?



And why do you think the players and the fans would have taken action this time? What changed?



No actually it's pretty spot on. I've given reasons and examples and arguments and all you've given is "nuh uh!"

I've had too much of your attention whoring today. Maybe I'll detail it for you tomorrow but I doubt it. The energy is wasted on you when you're just out trolling.

[cwolff]

I understand the irrelevance. Does that count?

You're ahead of me. I think I understand the irrelevance. I think that what we're seeing or beginning to see is Laviticas' white power personality showing up. Now he's even beginning the race war talk.

[Back]

That may be so but that doesn't have anything to do with what I said.



What do you call it if not getting involved? So Obama says something about this in a world wide televised speech and that's not getting involved?



I don't recall ever saying that but I suppose it's possible I did.



Ironic given the quote right about this one.

Dude, put the bong down. You're getting way to paranoid and delusional lately.

[Laviticas]

You're ahead of me. I think I understand the irrelevance. I think that what we're seeing or beginning to see is Laviticas' white power personality showing up. Now he's even beginning the race war talk.

That's cute how you guys can condone the attempted murder of humans as long as they are white, but a rich white guy makes some racial slurs and the fucking world is coming to an end.

Absolute insanity

[Laviticas]

Dude, put the bong down. You're getting way to paranoid and delusional lately.

So obvious you guys have been outed for what you represent, that you no longer can answer the questions, only toss insults.

P.S. Back I'm still waiting for that credit score, the car is on it's last leg. It may be easier if you give me your SSI number as well.

[waywardgs]

Hahaha. He's completely lost it at this point. What a riot. Too funny, Lav, too funny.

[Laviticas]

Hahaha. He's completely lost it at this point. What a riot. Too funny, Lav, too funny.

How am I lost?

If you have some big thing on me, make me out the idiot.

[Thondalar]

There aren't a lot of bachelor's degrees in the janitorial environment, but black janitors get paid less than white janitors.

And Asian janitors get paid more than white janitors. The only thing I can see that is different in any of these cases is level of education, which makes total sense. Wal-mart, which is one of the largest single employers in the country, will pay you a higher starting wage based on your educational level and previous work experience regardless of what job you're actually applying for. Most large companies have the same or similar policy.

The problem here is the same problem you have with a lot of things, Latrin. For all your talk of science and data, you don't really care what the facts are. If it doesn't fit your narrative, like in this case, then it's a steaming pile of shit and it doesn't matter. The only conclusion you're happy with is that there is a wage gap between blacks and whites and that it is caused by racism in hiring practices that will only be fixed by more government programs.

[Tgo01]

Maybe I'll detail it for you tomorrow

Awesome, I look forward to more "nuh uh!" arguments.

[Back]

This thread got pretty crazy. Some guy with a history of racism says some racist things and suddenly liberals are the racists. You guys forgot to line up the yarn chart on your walls with aliens and chem trails.

[Tgo01]

Some guy with a history of racism says some racist things and suddenly liberals are the racists.

Don't be stupid.

There's no "suddenly" about it.

BAZINGA!

[Thondalar]

This thread got pretty crazy. Some guy with a history of racism says some racist things and suddenly liberals are the racists. You guys forgot to line up the yarn chart on your walls with aliens and chem trails.

Liberals have always been the racists.

[Latrinsorm]

Keep telling yourself that bud, personally I think this is the goal of some of you people. You want to see a race war.Statedamnit, who told him? We were supposed to wait on publicly declaring the race war until after we got our Kenyan Marxist declared Dictator for Life. Loose lips sink ships, guys, come on.
The problem here is the same problem you have with a lot of things, Latrin. For all your talk of science and data, you don't really care what the facts are. If it doesn't fit your narrative, like in this case, then it's a steaming pile of shit and it doesn't matter. The only conclusion you're happy with is that there is a wage gap between blacks and whites and that it is caused by racism in hiring practices that will only be fixed by more government programs.With the main strand in the thread going irrevocably off the rails, I am happy to speak on this topic, at great lengths, whether you want me to or not.

What does it mean to be an empiricist? It means to abandon reason, at least to some degree. Correlation is not causation, but empiricism treats it as such. With many caveats, with great care, but in the end all empiricism comes down to a logical fallacy. How stupid is that? Well, it turns out that it's not as stupid as trying to do science with logic, with reason. You can do science with reason, as Aristotle did, and his example retarded the progress of science in the West by a thousand years. If not for Islam, we may never have shaken off his (unintentional) corruption. (I mean, I assume it was unintentional. He was a megalomaniacal douchebag, but probably not that megalomaniacal.) And I say "we", but with apologies to cwolff of course you are not in that group. Please note that empiricism has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence. It's simply a choice. Are you going to use reason, or are you going to use data? You're a history buff: Aristotle or Avicenna?

Now, what does any of this have to do with anything, anywhere, ever? A simple question: how do you know I reject data? When have you ever cited data that I have rejected? Your pointing out flaws in a methodology is not data. Your finding distasteful the findings of a methodology is not data. Your knowing the wrongness of data is not data. All of these are reasons, and if I really am a scientist I shouldn't give an expletive about reason.

Give me data, or give me peace. You have at your fingertips a trillion gigabytes of data via the Internet. You understand this number? More than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 bytes. If you can't be bothered to find a single citation, I can't be bothered to take your accusations as anything more than bluster, a bluff, rhetorical hot air.

Give me data, or give me peace.

[Tgo01]

Give me data, or give me peace.

http://media.giphy.com/media/13ArwkCRSs4Sxa/giphy.gif

[cwolff]

If not for Islam, we may never have shaken off his (unintentional) corruption. (I mean, I assume it was unintentional. He was a megalomaniacal douchebag, but probably not that megalomaniacal.) And I say "we", but with apologies to cwolff of course you are not in that group. Please note that empiricism has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence. It's simply a choice. Are you going to use reason, or are you going to use data? You're a history buff: Aristotle or Avicenna?

The answer, of course, lies not with Aristotle or Aveeno moisturizer, but with this guy.

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/wallpaper/may4th/Star-Wars-May-4th-Poster-15.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

Had he used Aveeno, when 900 years he reached, better looked would've he.

[Laviticas]

Statedamnit, who told him? We were supposed to wait on publicly declaring the race war until after we got our Kenyan Marxist declared Dictator for Life. Loose lips sink ships, guys, come on.With the main strand in the thread going irrevocably off the rails, I am happy to speak on this topic, at great lengths, whether you want me to or not.

What does it mean to be an empiricist? It means to abandon reason, at least to some degree. Correlation is not causation, but empiricism treats it as such. With many caveats, with great care, but in the end all empiricism comes down to a logical fallacy. How stupid is that? Well, it turns out that it's not as stupid as trying to do science with logic, with reason. You can do science with reason, as Aristotle did, and his example retarded the progress of science in the West by a thousand years. If not for Islam, we may never have shaken off his (unintentional) corruption. (I mean, I assume it was unintentional. He was a megalomaniacal douchebag, but probably not that megalomaniacal.) And I say "we", but with apologies to cwolff of course you are not in that group. Please note that empiricism has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence. It's simply a choice. Are you going to use reason, or are you going to use data? You're a history buff: Aristotle or Avicenna?

Now, what does any of this have to do with anything, anywhere, ever? A simple question: how do you know I reject data? When have you ever cited data that I have rejected? Your pointing out flaws in a methodology is not data. Your finding distasteful the findings of a methodology is not data. Your knowing the wrongness of data is not data. All of these are reasons, and if I really am a scientist I shouldn't give an expletive about reason.

Give me data, or give me peace. You have at your fingertips a trillion gigabytes of data via the Internet. You understand this number? More than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 bytes. If you can't be bothered to find a single citation, I can't be bothered to take your accusations as anything more than bluster, a bluff, rhetorical hot air.

Give me data, or give me peace.

Did you watch any of the videos I posted Latrin? Specifically the beat whitey night?

The reason I bring that up, is I live in that town where this happened. It was not the media that called it beat whitey night, or some political faction, but the mob itself was calling it beat whitey night.

Using logic or data, your choice. Why should we not have reason to worry?

Why should I or anyone else continue to support any form of help for these people? They stabbed and nearly killed a guy, they destroyed public and private property, they assaulted numerous people. A large group of these people were moved from the ghettos of Chicago under a Government funded program, to help them escape that shit hole. This is how they show their thanks, by disrupting our community that has had very little racial problems in the past.

It took weeks for our community to overcome the anger people had, the black community that had called our town home for generations were living in fear of retribution. One of the business this mob damaged was a local biker bar, they also damaged a number of motorcycles, these people wanted revenge and yet they held back their anger.

Only a fool would not be suspicious of the agenda of a party that wants to restrict, if not remove the right to gun ownership. This same party support laws that favor one racial group over another, and as shown here by other democrats, they have no problems turning a blind eye to the attempted murder of a person based on the color of their skin, simply because that skin color was white. I hate using this like a broken record, but when members of your own party stay silent as one of their members jokes about burning members of a religious group, then that same group comes unraveled over some pigs racist remarks. You're damn straight, I'm worried.

[Warriorbird]

Did you watch any of the videos I posted Latrin? Specifically the beat whitey night?

The reason I bring that up, is I live in that town where this happened. It was not the media that called it beat whitey night, or some political faction, but the mob itself was calling it beat whitey night.

Using logic or data, your choice. Why should we not have reason to worry?

Why should I or anyone else continue to support any form of help for these people? They stabbed and nearly killed a guy, they destroyed public and private property, they assaulted numerous people. A large group of these people were moved from the ghettos of Chicago under a Government funded program, to help them escape that shit hole. This is how they show their thanks, by disrupting our community that has had very little racial problems in the past.

It took weeks for our community to overcome the anger people had, the black community that had called our town home for generations were living in fear of retribution. One of the business this mob damaged was a local biker bar, they also damaged a number of motorcycles, these people wanted revenge and yet they held back their anger.

Only a fool would not be suspicious of the agenda of a party that wants to restrict, if not remove the right to gun ownership. This same party support laws that favor one racial group over another, and as shown here by other democrats, they have no problems turning a blind eye to the attempted murder of a person based on the color of their skin, simply because that skin color was white. I hate using this like a broken record, but when members of your own party stay silent as one of their members jokes about burning members of a religious group, then that same group comes unraveled over some pigs racist remarks. You're damn straight, I'm worried.

Latrin isn't a Democrat.

How exactly has the Democratic Party taken away your gun rights, unless you live in California (and are therefore insane anyways?)

[Latrinsorm]

Did you watch any of the videos I posted Latrin? Specifically the beat whitey night?

The reason I bring that up, is I live in that town where this happened. It was not the media that called it beat whitey night, or some political faction, but the mob itself was calling it beat whitey night.

Using logic or data, your choice. Why should we not have reason to worry?

Why should I or anyone else continue to support any form of help for these people? They stabbed and nearly killed a guy, they destroyed public and private property, they assaulted numerous people. A large group of these people were moved from the ghettos of Chicago under a Government funded program, to help them escape that shit hole. This is how they show their thanks, by disrupting our community that has had very little racial problems in the past.

It took weeks for our community to overcome the anger people had, the black community that had called our town home for generations were living in fear of retribution. One of the business this mob damaged was a local biker bar, they also damaged a number of motorcycles, these people wanted revenge and yet they held back their anger.

Only a fool would not be suspicious of the agenda of a party that wants to restrict, if not remove the right to gun ownership. This same party support laws that favor one racial group over another, and as shown here by other democrats, they have no problems turning a blind eye to the attempted murder of a person based on the color of their skin, simply because that skin color was white. I hate using this like a broken record, but when members of your own party stay silent when one of their members jokes about burning members of a religious group, then that same group comes unraveled over some pigs racist remarks. You're damn straight, I'm worried.I don't watch videos, but since you ask, you should be very worried! Therefore, universal surveillance.

For future reference, I am a registered Republican. I don't recall cwolff's party affiliation, but my judgment of his remarks is that he did not seriously advocate burning hundreds of millions of Americans alive - thus, a joke. My judgment of Donald Sterling's remarks is that he did seriously advocate that Magic Johnson not be photographed in the company of Mlle. Stiviano - thus, not a joke.

I think using the word "unraveled" is rather an overstatement. I hate using this like a broken record, but no one has suggested that Mr. Sterling even be fined, let alone imprisoned or executed; there has been no request for government action of any kind, just criticism. Mr. Sterling has the right to express his opinions, others have the right to criticize (or ignore) those opinions, you have the right to criticize (or ignore) that criticism, others have the right to criticize (or ignore) that meta-criticism.

[Laviticas]

I don't watch videos, but since you ask, you should be very worried! Therefore, universal surveillance.

For future reference, I am a registered Republican. I don't recall cwolff's party affiliation, but my judgment of his remarks is that he did not seriously advocate burning hundreds of millions of Americans alive - thus, a joke. My judgment of Donald Sterling's remarks is that he did seriously advocate that Magic Johnson not be photographed in the company of Mlle. Stiviano - thus, not a joke.

I think using the word "unraveled" is rather an overstatement. I hate using this like a broken record, but no one has suggested that Mr. Sterling even be fined, let alone imprisoned or executed; there has been no request for government action of any kind, just criticism. Mr. Sterling has the right to express his opinions, others have the right to criticize (or ignore) those opinions, you have the right to criticize (or ignore) that criticism, others have the right to criticize (or ignore) that meta-criticism.

Sorry for pigeon holing you, you just don't come off as a Republican.

How would surveillance prevent this, or protect the victims of the assault?

I just want to make clear, that mass murder is ok to joke about? We are clear on this? There will be no outcry on future jokes, no matter the subject of the joke?

Unraveled is not an overstatement, I have seen enough this story on the news to make my stomach turn and it's the same crap as usual, NAACP rep's rushing to the camera's view and furthering their fueling of the racial divide after handing this known racist an award. It has also been made political and as Tg mentioned, there is no question in my mind this guy is being pressured to sell out by political factions.

I do agree, this asshole has the right to voice his opinion as do others and there are repercussions to expressing that free speech.

[Tgo01]

For future reference, I am a registered Republican.

And I'm Captain Tiumbrt and I hail from the planet Xyrxra.

[Laviticas]

Latrin isn't a Democrat.

How exactly has the Democratic Party taken away your gun rights, unless you live in California (and are therefore insane anyways?)

6440

Think that pretty much answers your question