Georgia Gets Good Gun Law

[ClydeR]

House Bill 60, which passed in the final hours of this year’s legislative session, allows Georgians to legally carry firearms in a wide range of new places, including schools, bars, churches and government buildings. A recent analysis also said it could let felons use the state’s “stand your ground” rules to claim self-defense if they feel threatened.

More... (http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2014/04/23/nathan-deal-stresses-positive-changes-in-gun-bill-hell-sign-today/)

All the stuff in the first sentence is common sense. People are upset over the second sentence about felons being able to defend themselves. I don't see the problem. Just because somebody is a felon, he's supposed to roll over and play dead? I don't think so. I know felons aren't supposed to have guns, but if a felon is threatened and just happens to find a gun on the ground -- there are going to be so many in Georgia that people are bound to misplace them from time to time -- what's wrong with using it to defend himself?

[cwolff]

WOW! These crackers must loooovvve them some guns.

1) Bars

Before the new law, gun owners were not allowed to bring their firearms into bars unless the bar owner specifically allowed it. But under the Safe Carry Protection Act, the emphasis is reversed. A patron can bring guns into bars unless the owner tells him or her to leave.
This is going to make for some great news cycles. I can't wait.

2) Churches

Church leaders will now be able to decide whether to allow their congregations to bring guns into their buildings. Right now, bringing guns into houses of worship is illegal. Under the Safe Carry Protection Act, if a gun license holder brings a gun into church against the wishes of that church’s leaders, the gun owner will be fined $100. If a non-license holder brings a gun to that same church, he or she will be guilty of a misdemeanor.
How the hell did this even come up? You got to have a gun in church?

3) Schools

Local school boards will now be allowed to vote on whether they want to let teachers and other members of the school’s staff bring guns to campus. The staff members will apply to the school board, and they will go through training that includes “judgment pistol shooting,” “marksmanship,” and a review of Georgia’s laws about shooting people to defend yourself and others. If a teacher doesn’t want to carry the gun at all times, he or she will have to store it in a safe or lock box. Previously, a licensed owner could bring a gun to school if an “authorized official of the school” gave permission.
Ya, I bet these teachers will be some slick operators. Wonder if they get a bump in pay if they become a marksmanship instructor. Dude, Who doesn't want to carry a gun all the time. I bet that'll be comfortable.

4) Airports

Licensed gun owners will be allowed to have firearms in airport common areas and if they accidentally bring their guns to airport security checkpoints, they will be allowed to pick up their weapon and leave without criminal penalty. They will not, of course, be able to take their gun past the TSA checkpoint, which remains a federal matter.
To get past TSA you just have to walk up and shoot 'em. We saw that in L.A.

5) Government buildings

Licensed gun owners will be allowed to bring their weapons into unsecured government buildings -- in other words, those buildings that don't have security checkpoints or metal detectors. Supporters say this provision was intended to help rural counties that don't have the funds to hire full-time security personnel. Gun owners still won't be able to bring weapons into, say, Atlanta City Hall or the Georgia State Capitol.
I'm ok with this. Fuck it. If you can carry you might as well carry in government buildings.

6) No database of gun owners

The law will prevent the state of Georgia from creating and maintaining a database of licensed owners.
What's the point in tracking guns. With robust tracking gangs would have a hard time getting strapped. It's discriminatory. This will also help when you need some quick cash.

7) No fingerprinting

The law will eliminate the fingerprinting requirement for renewing weapons carry licenses.
Of course. You got to have I.D. to vote but damned if there is any reason to know who's got a firearm.

[Warriorbird]

When I imagine my coworkers with guns I get very frightened. We have the stupid bar thing. Thank goodness they haven't armed my coworkers.

[cwolff]

When I imagine my coworkers with guns I get very frightened. We have the stupid bar thing. Thank goodness they haven't armed my coworkers.

If I were a teacher I'd think that this is the absolute last thing I'd want to deal with. There is remote chance that you can shoot someone to save the lives of your kids, and a pretty good chance one of them will accidental discharge into some teen's face.

I worked a Summer job with a teacher. He was a total weirdo. Little fat guy with a big mustache. He told me how when he's starting to lose his shit he'll admonish the kids that he's about to "EXPLODE". When he said explode he pantomimed this weird threatening posture. If that fuck had a gun at school, I'd be scared.

[Warriorbird]

If I were a teacher I'd think that this is the absolute last thing I'd want to deal with. There is remote chance that you can shoot someone to save the lives of your kids, and a pretty good chance one of them will accidental discharge into some teen's face.

I worked a Summer job with a teacher. He was a total weirdo. Little fat guy with a big mustache. He told me how when he's starting to lose his shit he'll admonish the kids that he's about to "EXPLODE". When he said explode he pantomimed this weird threatening posture. If that fuck had a gun at school, I'd be scared.

Imagine 1 out 5 people that you work with in this category. It'd only be a matter of time.

[Tgo01]

If that fuck had a gun at school, I'd be scared.

How do you know he didn't? Because a law said he couldn't? Huh? HUH?!

I don't see why the changes to bars and churches are bad. Why did the government in the first place say guns aren't allowed in churches? That makes no sense.

I also don't see what's wrong with the school change. Each local school board can decide to allow staff to carry guns, each staff member must ask permission from the school board, they must pass training. What's the problem here?

The airport and government building changes are kind of weird but whatever.

Not sure I understand what the database change even means. So you need a license to own a gun but like...the state can't keep a database? So like...wait what exactly is this change doing?

[waywardgs]

I bartended at a pretty rough bar in the south loop in chicago for a while. I can't even remember how many times I saw drunk cops pull pistols on one another. Always the cops.

[cwolff]

How do you know he didn't? Because a law said he couldn't? Huh? HUH?!

I don't see why the changes to bars and churches are bad. Why did the government in the first place say guns aren't allowed in churches? That makes no sense.

I also don't see what's wrong with the school change. Each local school board can decide to allow staff to carry guns, each staff member must ask permission from the school board, they must pass training. What's the problem here?

The airport and government building changes are kind of weird but whatever.

Not sure I understand what the database change even means. So you need a license to own a gun but like...the state can't keep a database? So like...wait what exactly is this change doing?

Do you ever watch the show Vice? It's a news magazine program that I think is on HBO here. They do an episode on Florida gun laws. It's a good program.

I question why one would care about being armed in a church. When you break it down, the christian religion is all about leaving this shit hole behind for a better place. They shouldn't be so afraid of getting killed. Being a victim is a wonderful opportunity to practice one's faith. With that being said, I agree with you. Why would you have a law about churches. Let 'em have all the guns they want.

The schools on the other hand is a different story. The school board gets to decide but the employees have to deal with it. The training isn't shit either. They won't be effective shooters after a little bit of training or at least because of the training. The only thing that makes you an effective shooter is lots of shooting. They'll probably be outgunned too. I'd hate to go up against an AR, AK or shotgun with my concealed carry weapon.

Whatever happens I'd expect to see an arms race. If you're going to shoot up a school you better pack enough heat to deal with people shooting back. Luckily, it will be easy to get your hands on good guns in GA.


I bartended at a pretty rough bar in the south loop in chicago for a while. I can't even remember how many times I saw drunk cops pull pistols on one another. Always the cops.

HAHA So you're saying that alcohol is to guns and peas are to carrots?

[Tgo01]

I question why one would care about being armed in a church. When you break it down, the christian religion is all about leaving this shit hole behind for a better place. They shouldn't be so afraid of getting killed. Being a victim is a wonderful opportunity to practice one's faith.

I hope this is all a joke but it's hard to tell with you.


The schools on the other hand is a different story. The school board gets to decide but the employees have to deal with it.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.


The only thing that makes you an effective shooter is lots of shooting.

Well maybe the teachers will practice a lot. Sheesh!

[cwolff]

I hope this is all a joke but it's hard to tell with you.

It's not a joke. Christianity's all about eating shit in this life. Builds character for the infinite amount of time you spend in bliss. A phenomenal ROI if you think about it.


I'm not sure what you mean by this.

What I mean is that the school board won't have to deal with armed co-workers in the classroom. That extra stress will fall to the teachers who have to work there. It's just needless heartburn and even an escalation of the risk for physical danger that teachers don't need. Sure, some teachers will want to carry. Many others will have to make some life changes if they can. Switch districts or just suck it up and hope for the best.


In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?_r=0)

[waywardgs]

For schools, they should just have those shot spot systems hooked to a giant school-wide sleeping gas distributor. If someone fires a gun, sleeping gas is instantly pumped into the air, knocking everyone out. Granted it's not perfect; one or two kids may get a bullet before the gas takes effect, but it's better than a gunfight in a school and would prevent more extended columbine-style shootings.

There, solved THAT little problem. Anything else tonight?

[Tgo01]

What I mean is that the school board won't have to deal with armed co-workers in the classroom. That extra stress will fall to the teachers who have to work there.

I don't understand people who think people who carry guns are some sort of trigger happy maniacs just looking for any excuse to put a bullet into someone.

You've probably been within 100 feet of someone who was carrying a gun hundreds of times before in your life.

Relax. It's okay.

[Warriorbird]

I don't understand people who think people who carry guns are some sort of trigger happy maniacs just looking for any excuse to put a bullet into someone.

You've probably been within 100 feet of someone who was carrying a gun hundreds of times before in your life.

Relax. It's okay.

In a high school filled with teenagers who are hormone crazed maniacs why would you think that teachers going nuts is the biggest problem?

[Tgo01]

In a high school filled with teenagers who are hormone crazed maniacs why would you think that teachers going nuts is the biggest problem?

Wait the kids can carry guns now?

[Warriorbird]

Wait the kids can carry guns now?

List for me the number of high school teachers of yours you could have taken a gun from.

[Tgo01]

List for me the number of high school teachers of yours you could have taken a gun from.

I'll list for you the number of teachers I would have attempted to take a gun from knowing they had a gun:

No one.

[Warriorbird]

I'll list for you the number of teachers I would have attempted to take a gun from knowing they had a gun:

0

How much more rational were you than the average modern teenager? There've been three teachers beaten up at my school. One had a wallet taken. One had a phone taken. All the kids involved are now in jail, but do you really want to inject guns into that situation to make a philosophical point? (Which is why you and Latrin are really the same person. That's all this is.)

[Tgo01]

How much more rational were you than the average modern teenager?

None at all. I beat up at least 12 teachers and 20 fellow students. That was before lunch.

[cwolff]

I don't understand people who think people who carry guns are some sort of trigger happy maniacs just looking for any excuse to put a bullet into someone.

You've probably been within 100 feet of someone who was carrying a gun hundreds of times before in your life.

Relax. It's okay.

I don't understand why you assume so much. I was an 0311. Marine Corps basic rifleman. I've not been to combat like some of these guys but I'm familiar with working around loaded weapons. It's nothing to take lightly. It's not horribly difficult but you have to remain vigilant. It's definitely an extra stressor. Google accidental gunshot and start reading. You'll see what I mean.

[Warriorbird]

None at all. I beat up at least 12 teachers and 20 fellow students. That was before lunch.

Again you're going to attempt to make some philosophical point about what I said being an anecdote. It's a dumb idea. You know it. You're just clinging to it.

[cwolff]

I'll list for you the number of teachers I would have attempted to take a gun from knowing they had a gun:

No one.

If the schools are that safe then there's no need for guns in them at all.

[Tgo01]

Again you're going to attempt to make some philosophical point about what I said being an anecdote. It's a dumb idea. You know it. You're just clinging to it.

Hey! I'll tell you what philosophical point I'm going to make!


If the schools are that safe then there's no need for guns in them at all.

Then the school board will make that determination.

[Warriorbird]

Then the school board will make that determination.

How about you address some of the real issues with federalism in public education as opposed to these ineffectual rhetorical flourishes.

[cwolff]

Then the school board will make that determination.

Aww Shit. We got another TG talking circle. I used think those were only for hippies. LOL

[cwolff]

It's not a joke. Christianity's all about eating shit in this life. Builds character for the infinite amount of time you spend in bliss. A phenomenal ROI if you think about it.

Dear Anonymous christian,

Thank you for proving my point, to a lesser and a greater degree, by pointing out through anonymous red rep that God so loved the world he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. You are an accurate representation of your faith.

[Warriorbird]

Dear Anonymous christian,

Thank you for proving my point, to a lesser and a greater degree, by pointing out through anonymous red rep that God so loved the world he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. You are an accurate representation of your faith.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/files/2012/04/jesus-lich.jpg

[Parkbandit]

List for me the number of high school teachers of yours you could have taken a gun from.

List for me the number of high school students who would bring in a gun to kill other students, knowing there are teachers with guns on the property.

[Parkbandit]

I don't understand why you assume so much. I was an 0311. Marine Corps basic rifleman. I've not been to combat like some of these guys but I'm familiar with working around loaded weapons. It's nothing to take lightly. It's not horribly difficult but you have to remain vigilant. It's definitely an extra stressor. Google accidental gunshot and start reading. You'll see what I mean.

They should ban bows and arrows... they are the real damage dealers.

[Latrinsorm]

List for me the number of high school students who would bring in a gun to kill other students, knowing there are teachers with guns on the property.Come on, nobody's that big a pussy.
I'll list for you the number of teachers I would have attempted to take a gun from knowing they had a gun:

No one....I stand corrected.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

They should ban bows and arrows... they are the real damage dealers.

Broadheads, only broadheads...

[Warriorbird]

List for me the number of high school students who would bring in a gun to kill other students, knowing there are teachers with guns on the property.

Given the sheer bound for death insanity of most school shooters I doubt it'd make a damn bit of difference in deterrence. Meanwhile if it enabled even one further massacre I'd consider it a rather poor idea. You don't want to think about any of that though.

[AnticorRifling]

Given the sheer bound for death insanity of most school shooters I doubt it'd make a damn bit of difference in deterrence. Meanwhile if it enabled even one further massacre I'd consider it a rather poor idea. You don't want to think about any of that though.

You really doubt it? You really doubt that a student wanting to get a kill count before offing himself wouldn't think twice if he knew he'd get peeled within moments as opposed to having the time needed to get that kill count?

Personally I'm not so sure but I don't think arming the school in a blanket conceal and carry is the right answer though. My approach would be different.

[Warriorbird]

You really doubt it? You really doubt that a student wanting to get a kill count before offing himself wouldn't think twice if he knew he'd get peeled within moments as opposed to having the time needed to get that kill count?

Personally I'm not so sure but I don't think arming the school in a blanket conceal and carry is the right answer though. My approach would be different.

I don't think deterrence works so well on the insane. I think the vast majority of teachers would not benefit from being armed, even in a massacre. I've supported some of the alternatives though, including the use of veterans as volunteer security. What is your idea?

[cwolff]

You really doubt it? You really doubt that a student wanting to get a kill count before offing himself wouldn't think twice if he knew he'd get peeled within moments as opposed to having the time needed to get that kill count?

Personally I'm not so sure but I don't think arming the school in a blanket conceal and carry is the right answer though. My approach would be different.

It just ups the ante. The kids are going to have to be better prepared to shoot their classmates. Instead of your 9, you better bring that AR. Got a ballistics vest? Wear it. Escalation won't win this battle.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't think deterrence works so well on the insane. I think the vast majority of teachers would not benefit from being armed, even in a massacre. I've supported some of the alternatives though, including the use of veterans as volunteer security. What is your idea?

It's not a deterrence, it's a faster stop. QRF in house using vets, we've discussed this in the past I believe. I don't want unwilling, untrained, or unresponsives carrying just to carry out of obligation that gets more people killed.

[Tgo01]

It just ups the ante. The kids are going to have to be better prepared to shoot their classmates. Instead of your 9, you better bring that AR. Got a ballistics vest? Wear it. Escalation won't win this battle.

The teachers are armed with knives, I better bring a gun!
The teachers are armed with guns, I better bring a bazooka!
The teachers are armed with bazookas, I better bring a tank!

[Warriorbird]

It's not a deterrence, it's a faster stop. QRF in house using vets, we've discussed this in the past I believe. I don't want unwilling, untrained, or unresponsives carrying just to carry out of obligation that gets more people killed.

Yeah, I actually voted for two veteran based ideas when the state had consultants poll us.

[AnticorRifling]

It just ups the ante. The kids are going to have to be better prepared to shoot their classmates. Instead of your 9, you better bring that AR. Got a ballistics vest? Wear it. Escalation won't win this battle.

Rice cookers inc.

[cwolff]

It's not a deterrence, it's a faster stop. QRF in house using vets, we've discussed this in the past I believe. I don't want unwilling, untrained, or unresponsives carrying just to carry out of obligation that gets more people killed.

Do you think a QRF in the school is practical? I do believe that the school cop here in Centennial, CO cut down on the murder during our last school shooting. I may be overestimating QRF. Could be 1 armed guard.

[AnticorRifling]

The teachers are armed with knives, I better bring a gun!
The teachers are armed with guns, I better bring a bazooka!
The teachers are armed with bazookas, I better bring a tank!

But but bazookas and tanks are illegal how could they get their hands on them?! We passed laws!

[AnticorRifling]

Do you think a QRF in the school is practical? I do believe that the school cop here in Centennial, CO cut down on the murder during our last school shooting. I may be overestimating QRF. Could be 1 armed guard.

Yes. And yes QRF can be just 1. All you need is one properly trained, properly motivated and properly equipped body to change the landscape. Put them in the air ducts and give them some catch phrases. (but seriously 1 is plenty for most facilities).

[cwolff]

Yes. And yes QRF can be just 1. All you need is one properly trained, properly motivated and properly equipped body to change the landscape. Put them in the air ducts and give them some catch phrases. (but seriously 1 is plenty for most facilities).

Not a bad idea. We need a place to store all those fucked up veterans too. Gelston looks homeless. Did you see his FSU thread?

[Warriorbird]

Not a bad idea. We need a place to store all those fucked up veterans too. Gelston looks homeless. Did you see his FSU thread?

I would rather have one armed Gelston than most of my coworkers armed (in spite of his embarassing betting losses.)

[Taernath]

But but bazookas and tanks are illegal how could they get their hands on them?! We passed laws!

If you outlaw tanks, only illegal immigrants will have tanks.

[AnticorRifling]

Not a bad idea. We need a place to store all those fucked up veterans too. Gelston looks homeless. Did you see his FSU thread?

Hell just him coming down the hallway is enough to stop most students in their tracks (assuming he's allowed within 500 yards of a school).

[AnticorRifling]

I would rather have one armed Gelston than most of my coworkers armed (in spite of his embarassing betting losses.)

Me too...especially a few of the "NRA nuts".

[Parkbandit]

Given the sheer bound for death insanity of most school shooters I doubt it'd make a damn bit of difference in deterrence. Meanwhile if it enabled even one further massacre I'd consider it a rather poor idea. You don't want to think about any of that though.

Maybe. It just seems that these mass shootings are in areas where guns are prohibited. Personally.. if I'm a crazed lunatic, hell bent on taking out some innocent victims before killing myself, I would most definitely target an unarmed zone so I can do whatever I wanted and not have to worry about getting shot at.

[cwolff]

Maybe. It just seems that these mass shootings are in areas where guns are prohibited. Personally.. if I'm a crazed lunatic, hell bent on taking out some innocent victims before killing myself, I would most definitely target an unarmed zone so I can do whatever I wanted and not have to worry about getting shot at.

I don't know if there's evidence that being a Gun Free zone makes the shooter more likely to pick that spot. The kids definitely do target the place their schools though so having armed folks on campus may be just enough to keep these from happening.

I'm skeptical that more firearms is the way to handle these infrequent mass shootings. We're engaging in an arms race that does nothing to address the causes.

[Parkbandit]

I don't know if there's evidence that being a Gun Free zone makes the shooter more likely to pick that spot. The kids definitely do target the place their schools though so having armed folks on campus may be just enough to keep these from happening.

It might just be a coincidence that they generally happen at places where guns are banned. But, if you are hell bent on killing people.. makes sense that those places would be easier.



I'm skeptical that more firearms is the way to handle these infrequent mass shootings. We're engaging in an arms race that does nothing to address the causes.

I think this Georgia law goes well beyond common sense.. like allowing CW in bars.

And if you want to address the causes.. start with mental illness.

[cwolff]

It might just be a coincidence that they generally happen at places where guns are banned. But, if you are hell bent on killing people.. makes sense that those places would be easier.



I think this Georgia law goes well beyond common sense.. like allowing CW in bars.

And if you want to address the causes.. start with mental illness.

Ya it would make sense. I do think it's mental illness though and I also think the primary motivation is not to get a high body county but to cause havoc and get attention; with body county as a secondary motivation. Truth be told, I don't actually have any fucking idea why a kid shoots up his school. Mental illness for sure, I wonder if it's predictable.

[waywardgs]

Seems that after every one of these school shootings people say oh, yeah, there were all the warning signs. Either hindsight is 20/20 or we're missing stuff that shouldn't be missed. Probably both, but it wouldn't hurt to train educators in how to spot these signs beforehand. And this doesn't mean just suspending a kid for bringing scissors to class. That's stupid.

[AnticorRifling]

Seems that after every one of these school shootings people say oh, yeah, there were all the warning signs. Either hindsight is 20/20 or we're missing stuff that shouldn't be missed. Probably both, but it wouldn't hurt to train educators in how to spot these signs beforehand. And this doesn't mean just suspending a kid for bringing scissors to class. That's stupid.

Why the educators? They already have to teach and raise people's kids. At what point do parents actually become responsible again?

[waywardgs]

Why the educators? They already have to teach and raise people's kids. At what point do parents actually become responsible again?

I agree in principle, but the difference is the parents are responsible for their one kid. The schools are responsible for hundreds of kids and for everything that happens in that school. You can have better communication between the parents and the schools, but when it comes down to it, the schools can't depend on the parents to be looking out for the interests of the school. Maybe they can't really see what might be going on with their kids. Blinders and all that. Most parents aren't trained psychologists. Maybe shitty parents exacerbated the issue. But when it comes down to it, blaming the parents after the fact doesn't revive dead kids. Instituting fail safes in the school environment might help. Who knows.

[Atlanteax]

If I were a teacher I'd think that this is the absolute last thing I'd want to deal with. There is remote chance that you can shoot someone to save the lives of your kids, and a pretty good chance one of them will accidental discharge into some teen's face.

I worked a Summer job with a teacher. He was a total weirdo. Little fat guy with a big mustache. He told me how when he's starting to lose his shit he'll admonish the kids that he's about to "EXPLODE". When he said explode he pantomimed this weird threatening posture. If that fuck had a gun at school, I'd be scared.

High school kids can do that to teachers...

[AnticorRifling]

I agree in principle, but the difference is the parents are responsible for their one kid. The schools are responsible for hundreds of kids and for everything that happens in that school. You can have better communication between the parents and the schools, but when it comes down to it, the schools can't depend on the parents to be looking out for the interests of the school. Maybe they can't really see what might be going on with their kids. Blinders and all that. Most parents aren't trained psychologists. Maybe shitty parents exacerbated the issue. But when it comes down to it, blaming the parents after the fact doesn't revive dead kids. Instituting fail safes in the school environment might help. Who knows.

Blaming anyone after the fact doesn't revive dead kids... but you still have to do root cause analysis and the root cause, in my opinion, is the parents.

[waywardgs]

You can institute policy in schools. People will pitch a fit if you try to legislate parenting practices.

[AnticorRifling]

You can institute policy in schools. People will pitch a fit if you try to legislate parenting practices.

And those policies mean what once the bell rings? It can't be the fault of the school if I fail as a parent and if my children aren't getting the attention, assistance and resources they need that is MY fault. Of course people will bitch if you try to make parents responsible because they couldn't possible own up to being responsible so they'll vote against it. It's better to vote it to be someone else's problem or restriction then actually do my job!

[waywardgs]

And those policies mean what once the bell rings? It can't be the fault of the school if I fail as a parent and if my children aren't getting the attention, assistance and resources they need that is MY fault. Of course people will bitch if you try to make parents responsible because they couldn't possible own up to being responsible so they'll vote against it. It's better to vote it to be someone else's problem or restriction then actually do my job!

Like I said, I agree with you. But you have to do what you can.

[waywardgs]

Or are you saying somehow charge the parents with crimes when something happens? I'm not opposed to this either if they are found to be culpable in some way, but again, it doesn't really address the problem preemptively.

[Atlanteax]

Or are you saying somehow charge the parents with crimes when something happens? I'm not opposed to this either if they are found to be culpable in some way, but again, it doesn't really address the problem preemptively.

He is saying to stop allowing parents to scrapegoat teachers/administrators for the bad behavior of their children.

[cwolff]

And those policies mean what once the bell rings? It can't be the fault of the school if I fail as a parent and if my children aren't getting the attention, assistance and resources they need that is MY fault. Of course people will bitch if you try to make parents responsible because they couldn't possible own up to being responsible so they'll vote against it. It's better to vote it to be someone else's problem or restriction then actually do my job!

I don't think anyone's playing the blame/fault game here. We're talking about teaching teachers to be prepared to shoot their students. We might as well talk about teaching them to spot warning signs and pre-event triggers.

There's some debate about how much influence a parent has over their teen. They do have some, the kids peer group may have more. Klebold or Harris' parents (can't remember which) worked with a neighbor of mine. They were are regular family just like everyone else on the block. That kid who stabbed a bunch of people recently also comes from what's reportedly a good household.

Don't get me wrong. I'm definitely ok with holding the parents to some sort of accountability but we have to be careful. Trying to legislate raising kids will exacerbate the problem. The only way to watch the parents and home environment is to go with Latrin's plan.

[Latrinsorm]

Maybe. It just seems that these mass shootings are in areas where guns are prohibited. Personally.. if I'm a crazed lunatic, hell bent on taking out some innocent victims before killing myself, I would most definitely target an unarmed zone so I can do whatever I wanted and not have to worry about getting shot at.You brought guns into an unarmed zone, why would you assume no one else did?
It might just be a coincidence that they generally happen at places where guns are banned.Or you could be remembering only the data that confirms your preconceived notions.

[~Rocktar~]

Or you could be remembering only the data that confirms your preconceived notions.

Please provide us the number of mass killings in developed countries where a single or pair (to include Columbine) of attackers using firearms, blades or blunt weapons killed or wounded at least 7 (needs to be extraordinary) people a short period of time, say 24 hours that did not involve gang or illegal drug related violence in areas where firearms possession, carry and concealment are not prohibited. Then compare and contrast that small number to the number of incidents where the same goes on where firearm possession, carry and concealment are prohibited.

[Latrinsorm]

Firearms possession is prohibited to some degree throughout the developed world, you'll have to be a little more specific.

[diethx]

The bars provision really bugs me. Drunk people don't need to have easy access to guns. I've seen enough bar fights around here to know that.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

The bars provision really bugs me. Drunk people don't need to have easy access to guns. I've seen enough bar fights around here to know that.

I'm extremely pro 2A and even I think having guns in bars is a dumb fucking idea. I do think having trained, armed personnel in schools is a necessity at this point. Crazy doesn't seem to be abating at all. But I think alcohol and guns are always a bad combination.

[Bartlett]

It seems to me that if someone meets the requirements set forth by their state and is deemed to be fit to carry a concealed firearm there is really no cause to further restrict that right because that person walks into a building. If you want to argue the merits of whether citizens should have the right to carry at all you are welcome to it, but to say that this person is suddenly more dangerous because they enter a school or a bar has no merit at all. As for the "need" to carry a concealed weapon to any particular place such as a church - there have been plenty of people murdered at houses of worship that could have benefitted from either having a firearm or having someone nearby that did. Of all the people on this forum who carry concealed regularly there are probably very few that have "needed" to.

I certainly agree nobody should be drunk and carrying a gun, but going to a bar doesn't equal getting drunk. If my coworkers were getting together and it happened to be at a bar, should my rights, protected by the 2nd amendment, be revoked? Drunk people should also not be driving. Perhaps bars should not be able to have parking lots and if you are going to a bar you have to walk from your house to the bar and back again. Maybe we're on to something there - plenty of people in my state are severely injured or killed by drunken motorists but I don't recall any drunken shooting sprees by a permit holder (yes it is legal to carry in a bar in NH and there may be some instances of this occuring but I assume the media would rock that event for weeks.)

[waywardgs]

I mentioned earlier in this thread watching drunk cops pull their guns on one another in anger all the time in a Chicago bar I worked at. Guns and alcohol be bad bad news. Or maybe it's that they were cops and felt more comfortable waving their dick- I mean gun- around.

[Bartlett]

I mentioned earlier in this thread watching drunk cops pull their guns on one another in anger all the time in a Chicago bar I worked at. Guns and alcohol be bad bad news. Or maybe it's that they were cops and felt more comfortable waving their dick- I mean gun- around.

I don't disagree with you of course - in some states it is illegal to carry if you are over a certain BAC. Without such a law in place, I imagine reckless endangerment or something similar could be used for the drunken brandishing of a firearm. Chances are good that even if carrying in a bar was illegal where you are an off duty cop in your area would not be restricted from carrying there. People do stupid, dangerous things when they are drunk. I just do not think that simply entering a bar should strip an individual of their rights.

[diethx]

Drunk people should also not be driving.

I am also against people bringing their cars into a bar.

[cwolff]

I am also against people bringing their cars into a bar.

What about horses? This guy in Montrose rode his horse to the bar a lot. Brought him in one time I guess. He got a DUI.

[cwolff]

I'm extremely pro 2A and even I think having guns in bars is a dumb fucking idea. I do think having trained, armed personnel in schools is a necessity at this point. Crazy doesn't seem to be abating at all. But I think alcohol and guns are always a bad combination.

These guys got a chance to mix guns, bars and cars. Hilarity did not ensue.


Police allege that 30-year-old Christina George-Harvan, of Conway, used her new husband's handgun to shoot 21-year-old Katelyn "Kaytee" Francis, of Fairmont, W.Va., on Thursday night. Francis was shot outside in a bar in New Brighton, about 30 miles north of Pittsburgh.

Police say the trio argued inside the bar about who would drive. They say George-Harvan, who was married earlier in the day, shot her niece in the parking lot at about 10 p.m.

[Wrathbringer]

These guys got a chance to mix guns, bars and cars. Hilarity did not ensue.

Went country cruising in Missouri once. Came upon this little shack general store in the middle of nowhere that had a display behind the counter with three shelves: Top shelf was liquor, mid shelf was ammunition, and bottom shelf was tobacco. That place was so full of win I could barely stand it.

[Tgo01]

Went country cruising in Missouri once. Came upon this little shack general store in the middle of nowhere that had a display behind the counter with three shelves: Top shelf was liquor, mid shelf was ammunition, and bottom shelf was tobacco. That place was so full of win I could barely stand it.

No porno mags? What kind of hick hell hole was this?!

[Latrinsorm]

I am also against people bringing their cars into a bar.FASCIST

[cwolff]

Georgian gun rights advocate makes the case for gun control.


Parents at a Forysth County park abruptly stopped a children's baseball game after growing suspicions of the behavior of a man carrying a gun in a waist holster Tuesday night.

"He's just walking around [saying] 'See my gun? Look, I got a gun and there's nothing you can do about it.' He knew he was frightening people. He knew exactly what he was doing," said parent Karen Rabb.

Rabb told Channel 2’s Tom Regan the parents grew so alarmed that they brought the game to a halt when the man declined a request that he leave a parking lot overlooking the baseball field.

“He scared people to the point where we stopped the game, took the kids out of the dugout and behind the dugout, and kind of hunkered down,” Rabb said.

Park users flooded 911 with 22 calls about the man. Forysth County deputies questioned the man, and found that he had a permit for the handgun. Authorities said since the man made no verbal threats or gestures, they could neither arrest him nor ask him to leave the park.

Another parent questioned what point the man was trying to prove.

"Why would anyone be walking around a public park, with a lot of children and parents and people here playing baseball, and he's walking around with a gun? I don't think the parents would have been nervous had he just had the gun in his holster and was just watching the game," said parent Paris Horton.

Rabb's 6-year-old son Ethan was playing at the time and later expressed concern to his mother.

"When I was reading my son's story last night, he turned to me and said 'Mommy, did that man want to kill me?'" said Rabb.

article (http://m.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/man-gun-causes-scare-during-childrens-baseball-gam/nfhJS/)

[waywardgs]

Idiots like that do nothing but hurt the argument for responsible gun ownership.

[cwolff]

Idiots like that do nothing but hurt the argument for responsible gun ownership.

Definitely. It's why we can't have nice things. Someone takes it too far then we end up writing laws about it that are clumsy and penalize everyone.