Meat-eaters.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I've been curious ever since the "animal debate" thread. It seemed like every meat eater felt compelled to describe how much they loved "bloody cow, tender chicken, etc." It's one thing to define yourself by saying, "I eat meat." But I just don't understand the need to go any further. Is it just to rub it in the faces of the vegetarians that were posting? Because that's all it comes off as.

Whenever I say I'm a vegetarian, I don't start rattling off my favorite foods, "Mmm, I love seitan and spinach, and mushrooms and eggplant. It's sooooo good, you guys are missing out!"

I just don't see the reasoning behind it, other than purposely trying to be mean-spirited. We don't really care that you eat meat, we know it takes place, so trying to emphasize how you had a cheeseburger or porkchops for lunch isn't as offensive as you're trying to be.

[Makkah]

Mmmmm steak.


rht

[Soulpieced]

Simple fact, humans are omnivorous. We as a species didn't evolve into what we are by just eating plants because they don't offer the proper nutrition by themselves.

[Betheny]

I don't eat much meat, but I know what you mean. It's like when you tell people you're atheist, and they're like, "Yeah well I'm going to heaven."

Some people just don't understand other poi nts of view.

[Numbers]

Probably because almost every vegetarian I've met (almost, NOT all) has been all snobby and uppity about it. "You eat meat? That's disgusting! Do you know how bad it is for you? Meat is murder!" blah blah blah blah blah.

Vegans are even worse.

[DeV]

Soul vegetarian food is damn good.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Whenever I say I'm a vegetarian, I don't start rattling off my favorite foods, "Mmm, I love seitan and spinach, and mushrooms and eggplant. It's sooooo good, you guys are missing out!"


The difference is that those who eat meat still eat what you eat. We are not missing out on spinach and mushrooms and eggplant.

Since I don't really know what posts you're referring to, I can't respond to them directly. I can say that I've never thought it offensive to profess my love for a steak while in the presence of a vegetarian, any more than professing my love for beer in front of someone who does not drink.

Jorddyn

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Soulpieced
Simple fact, humans are omnivorous. We as a species didn't evolve into what we are by just eating plants because they don't offer the proper nutrition by themselves.

Way to completely miss the point of my post. I'm not trying to get into an argument about which is healthier or the better diet.

[Snapp]

I know what he means, and agree with Maimara. Scroll through the Animal Debate thread, there's probably 20 posts just saying what meat they just ate/want to eat.

[Scott]

Originally posted by 3704558
Probably because almost every vegetarian I've met (almost, NOT all) has been all snobby and uppity about it. "You eat meat? That's disgusting! Do you know how bad it is for you? Meat is murder!" blah blah blah blah blah.

Vegans are even worse.

They say all that while wearing leather shoes......

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by 3704558
Probably because almost every vegetarian I've met (almost, NOT all) has been all snobby and uppity about it. "You eat meat? That's disgusting! Do you know how bad it is for you? Meat is murder!" blah blah blah blah blah.

Vegans are even worse.

Yes, but in the thread I'm referring to, there were probably three vegetarians that posted and none of them make comments like that. People still came out with the "Steak is so good, fuck the cows" comments.

[Keller]

We have evolved as omnivores, but I can understand and appriciate the protest that someone else is making by not eatting it. I agree some people are showy about it, on both sides. Let them act cool and just eat what the fuck you want -- listen to some vegans about how they don't eat Jell-o because of the poor dead chicken who looses the cartilege or whatever gelatin is. Think about how happy you are that that doesn't bother you enough to stop eating the Jello Jigglies with lunch and lets all go on with our lives. Everyone is entitled to be who they are -- they probably have some good reasons to be that way and last time I looked, none of us are God.

[DeV]

I believe you do have a point and when it does go to the extent as you described in your initial post, it's done just to get a rise out of you. Perhaps people should be more conscience of others points of view, including myself when it comes to this subject.


:chair:

[GSLeloo]

Originally posted by Gemstone101

Originally posted by 3704558
Probably because almost every vegetarian I've met (almost, NOT all) has been all snobby and uppity about it. "You eat meat? That's disgusting! Do you know how bad it is for you? Meat is murder!" blah blah blah blah blah.

Vegans are even worse.

They say all that while wearing leather shoes......


Hey when my dad was a vegan, he wore canvas shoes.

[Sean]

You mean sort of like what you did in this thread ..

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=6144

When people were simply like I like milk you decided to tell us what shits we are for drinking milk?

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Tijay
You mean sort of like what you did in this thread ..

http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=6144

When people were simply like I like milk you decided to tell us what shits we are for drinking milk?

The first few posts I made in that thread were very aggressive, I'll admit, but I remember I was under the influence at the time. By the time the thread came to a close, I was just arguing that cow's milk is unnatural for humans.

Edit:

Tijay, I also don't feel it relates to what I started this thread about.

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I did it to rub it in your face.

I just ate some beef jerky.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Tijay, I also don't feel it relates to what I started this thread about.


I think it relates to this thead perfectly.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Tijay, I also don't feel it relates to what I started this thread about.>>

You complain that anyone who eats meat but claims to like animals is a hypocrite. Then you make a thread complaining that people who eat meat say that they eat meat. Now you're complaining because someone pointed out that you're just as guilty.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Tijay, I also don't feel it relates to what I started this thread about.


I think it relates to this thead perfectly.

Well, in my opinion, it doesn't because I wasn't rubbing it in how much I like soy or rice milk. I was discussing how cow's milk isn't meant for humans. Entirely different.

[Bobmuhthol]

I now realize that expressing a like for meat is so much worse than calling an entire group of people sick for drinking milk.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
You complain that anyone who eats meat but claims to like animals is a hypocrite.

Over simplified version of what I said. That doesn't relate to this thread, anyway.


Then you make a thread complaining that people who eat meat say that they eat meat.

No, I made a thread asking why people who eat meat can't just say they eat meat without going into specifics whenever there is a vegetarian present in hopes of getting a rise out of them.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<No, I made a thread asking why people who eat meat can't just say they eat meat without going into specifics whenever there is a vegetarian present in hopes of getting a rise out of them.>>

And it certainly deserved its own thread, because that clearly solves everything.

Vegetarian present or not, I fucking love that chickens get killed daily so I can enjoy tender, juicy, hot, chicken wings.

Fuuuuck. Again, it's a two-way street.

I can't.. Fucking stand veggie-heads or anti-lamb eaters who make my meal absolutely revolting by rubbing their "I think I'm better than you because I don't eat 'X'" in my face.

Fuck off (Not meant to anyone in specific except to those who ruin my rack of lamb.)

[Sean]

The point I was trying to make is that there is little difference between someone trying to rub in how good certain meats are when you mention your a vegatarian and you trying to tell us how bad we are for saying that we drink milk. The evoloution of the conversation isn't really what were debating the fact is you take a very similar stance about things we do so to understand why "meat eaters" do what they do you might want to look inward.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Then you make a thread complaining that people who eat meat say that they eat meat.

No, I made a thread asking why people who eat meat can't just say they eat meat without going into specifics whenever there is a vegetarian present in hopes of getting a rise out of them.

Why couldn't you have just posted in the milk thread saying "I don't drink milk" or "I think drinking milk is wrong" instead of posting 3 articles including one that said how painful it is for cows that give milk for human consumption?

In this case, Bob and Tijay are dead on. You sir are a hypocrite

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Wezas
Why couldn't you have just posted in the milk thread saying "I don't drink milk" or "I think drinking milk is wrong" instead of posting 3 articles including one that said how painful it is for cows that give milk for human consumption?

In this case, Bob and Tijay are dead on. You sir are a hypocrite

First of all, that thread was five months ago. Second of all, the thread was a poll asking people's opinon on milk. The animal thread I was referencing wasn't about whether or not you enjoy eating meat. There is nothing hypocritical about what I've posted here.

I had chicken for dinner. It was good

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Maimara
It's like when you tell people you're atheist, and they're like, "Yeah well I'm going to heaven." Do people really say that? How depressing.
Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
The first few posts I made in that thread were very aggressive, I'll admit, but I remember I was under the influence at the time.Now that he's in the U.S. again, someone should get you and Longshot liquored up and see what happens.

Also, any time one takes a stand on anything, there will be people who want to attack that one.

[Hips]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Maimara
It's like when you tell people you're atheist, and they're like, "Yeah well I'm going to heaven." Do people really say that? How depressing.
Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
The first few posts I made in that thread were very aggressive, I'll admit, but I remember I was under the influence at the time.Now that he's in the U.S. again, someone should get you and Longshot liquored up and see what happens.

I would so want to be there for that. :lol:

[xtc]

I think it speaks to the insecurity of the people who posted. Hmmm I just had a juicy bloody steak. Afraid that there meat diet isn't all that healthy and they will have a cardiac arrest or that the men equate meat eating with their virilty and how masculine they are. Perhaps there afraid that if they stopped eating meat that they suddenly become gay. I detected some fear in those posts lol.

[Satira]

I don't feel like it's my place to REALLY tell other people what they should or shouldn't eat, wear, or use. I don't like when people start getting on my case about being a vegetarian, so I try not to get on other people's cases if they're okay with using animal products.

Now, if we're debating something in a thread then I might pull out some information and try to defend the issue, but I'm not just going to tell someone randomly that they're gross for eating meat. I think if you want to eat meat, you can go about it in a healthy way, just like you can be a vegetarian or vegan and go about that in a healthy way.

I've noticed, and not just on these boards either, that after you tell someone you're a vegetarian they almost always say one of two things, "I don't eat that much meat" or "I love my steak"

First of all, serious vegetarians aren't going to like you more or respect you more if you say "I don't eat that much meat." Which is normally what people are looking for when they say it. I really don't give a fuck how much meat you eat or if you like it.

This will be a hard analogy for some of you to wrap your mind around, but I'll give it a try anyways... :lol:

If you SERIOUSLY chose to remain celibate and happened to mention it to someone in conversation and their reply was, "I love sex. All different ways... missionary...from behind...it's so good!" you'd be going, "Uhh great, thanks for telling me. I really have no interest in hearing about it."

I don't really know WHY people end up saying "Ohh, I love chicken!" after you mention being a vegetarian, but I'll agree it is weird and sometimes it comes off as trying to provoke you.

[Toxicvixen]

I've been curious ever since the "animal debate" thread. It seemed like every meat eater felt compelled to describe how much they loved "bloody cow, tender chicken, etc." It's one thing to define yourself by saying, "I eat meat." But I just don't understand the need to go any further. Is it just to rub it in the faces of the vegetarians that were posting? Because that's all it comes off as.


Okay. I understand you don't like people to use adjectives when describing why they like eating meat. Thats settled, case close.

But then why 5 months ago in the milk post did you have to rub in people's noses all the ickyenss with milk? All you had to say was milks bad mmmkay and that would have been fine. Your guilty of what your accusing the meat eaters of.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Toxicvixen
Okay. I understand you don't like people to use adjectives when describing why they like eating meat. Thats settled, case close.

But then why 5 months ago in the milk post did you have to rub in people's noses all the ickyenss with milk? All you had to say was milks bad mmmkay and that would have been fine. Your guilty of what your accusing the meat eaters of.

No, I'm not. I've already described why it is different. The milk thread was a poll asking everyone's opinion on the substance. The animal thread had nothing to do with who enjoyed eating meat and who didn't.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I only post because I like to see the Satira/TOK tandem posting.

I think if they get one more post/post supporting post/post, they win something. I like to time the length between their posts too, and in my old office we used to keep a pool.

Winner got the pounder at Fuddruckers for free!

[Satira]

I was just giving my opinion on the situation.

I guess it's hard to believe that people who have been dating for a long time would have similar feelings on major issues. INSANITY.

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Lady Satira]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Tijay
The point I was trying to make is that there is little difference between someone trying to rub in how good certain meats are when you mention your a vegatarian and you trying to tell us how bad we are for saying that we drink milk.

I dont agree.
Whilst not supporting the way that TOK agrued the point about milk, as it appears (and has been admitted by him) that he did so aggressively. However this was in the context of a thread asking about milk.

The people saying "I just ate a cow" in the Animal thread weren't promoting any argument against TOK's point of view, they were posting to be narks. If they said "Hey you veggie your agrument sucks and this is why..." then the camparison would be valid, but they didnt. :shrug:

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Fuuuuck. Again, it's a two-way street.

I can't.. Fucking stand veggie-heads or anti-lamb eaters who make my meal absolutely revolting by rubbing their "I think I'm better than you because I don't eat 'X'" in my face.

Fuck off (Not meant to anyone in specific except to those who ruin my rack of lamb.)

And the point is no-one likes people ramming their POV down their neck. Some people who are vegetarian can be fairly militant about it. Similar with reformed smokers.

It's because, in the main, they just found out/achieved something that is important to them and they want to help people out with that way of thinking...misinformed as it is, I believe that's where many of them come from.

There are more vegetarians that are not militant "in your face" activists, but who, if asked, would offer a POV as to why they choose not to eat meat. But you dont hear about them so dont get to use them as examples. The jump-up-and-down-shout-in-your-face Veggies steal the limelight.

What is also true, I believe, is that meat eaters often get really defensive and become over-aggressive themselves when the subject of vegetarianism rises and if you even consider going to an event that doesnt have meat, the meat eaters will throw an eppie and state protesting their rights to have meat included on the menu even though, if they was at home, they dont always eat meat with every meal, every day anyway.

And there you have it.
I shut up now.
I am not a vegetarian by the way

[Celexei]

hmmm, i'm curious how milk is not fit for human consumption, i mean...really why the hell have we been drinking it for thousands of years. And you see, there is this little thing called a food chain, and we just happen to be on it, now whoever decided our pecking order in this food chain, set us on top, yes there are things that if you go into their territory, such as jungle cats and such, they're gonna rip you to shreds and guess what they're gonna do with ya? EAT YOU! We were brought into the world to utilize everything that we have, plants, byproducts of animals, and animals themselves (not spouting any christian BS here just stating) Now as i support your right to be seperate from the rest of us, and involve yourself with your Tofu burgers and all that yummy good soy products, (which i'm gonna laugh when someday they discover vegetables have souls and so do fruits and you've been eating them all along!!!) I don't think its right for anyone to pass judgement on anyones beliefs. Simply put, most people stay as they where meant to be, a healthy (okay NOT always healthy) Omnivore, when others choose to travel away from that for whatever reasons, I support that, life is about freedom and individual expressions, if your expressions are that meat is good or bad, so be it, don't let anyone try to turn you, but let those that don't agree with you have their own opinions just like you wish of yours.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Celexei(not spouting any christian BS here just stating) ..... (which i'm gonna laugh when someday they discover vegetables have souls and so do fruits and you've been eating them all along!!!) ......but let those that don't agree with you have their own opinions just like you wish of yours.
Even if they are completely loony

[Parkbandit]

Beef is king.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Beef is king.

Damn that looks good. I was planning on having steak fajitas at Don Pablos for lunch - but I may need to have an actual steak at Outback or Daks now.

On topic - my favorite thing to do in a resturaunt is when I get my steak I'll push my fork into it while saying "Moooooooo" somewhat loudly. Mainly so the people at my table can hear, but occasionally I get glances from other people.

[Celexei]

Originally posted by Wezas


On topic - my favorite thing to do in a resturaunt is when I get my steak I'll push my fork into it while saying "Moooooooo" somewhat loudly. Mainly so the people at my table can hear, but occasionally I get glances from other people.

OMG LMFAO!!!!

Me thought was funny too. :lol:

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by WezasOn topic - my favorite thing to do in a resturaunt is when I get my steak I'll push my fork into it while saying "Moooooooo" somewhat loudly. Mainly so the people at my table can hear, but occasionally I get glances from other people.

That I quite like. I talk about pig sandwich or roast cow sometimes, because people often forget what it is they are eating. My little sister loves meat but hates the idea of eating animals. She doesnt put the two things together.

And for arguments that we are part of the food chain, we actually left the food chain when we started to shop at Safeways (or whatever the nearest supermarket is to you)

I just hate the vegans/animal rights Nazis that go and throw paint on a newly bought fur coat. That shit makes me so ill. Frankly, vegetarians and vegans and eat all the celery they want, but I'll still enjoy my carnivorous diet. Also, I EAT VEAL.

- Arkans

PS: No, I'm not insecure about my post, not thinking I'll turn gay if I eat salads or any of that crap. I just hate when people are hypocrits about things.

[Wezas]

I wish I liked salads and vegetables. They're good for you and it seems alot of people enjoy them. I've tried all kinds of different dressings & such.

My mom loves salads and vegetables. My dad has the same likes/dislikes as I do when it comes to food. No vegetables, no chinese food, no seafood.

Although for some reason I like Artichoke. I'm still trying to figure that shit out.

Salads are fucking good. I have a taste for them for some reason, myself. Usually for lunch, if I have time to grab one, I'll go for a salad.

- Arkans

PS: I <3 ANIMALS ON MY PLATE

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
I just hate the vegans/animal rights Nazis that go and throw paint on a newly bought fur coat.
Fur coats are ugly. I personally would throw the paint on the wearer rather than the coat. People who wear real fur are sick
That shit makes me so ill. Frankly, vegetarians and vegans and eat all the celery they want, but I'll still enjoy my carnivorous diet. Also, I EAT VEAL.


Which is your choice. I respect your choice to eat what you like. But dont pretend that is a humane food or that it is natural or healthy. (and I know you havent, but that's kind of what started these threads off)

[Psykos]

People have worn fur coats for thousands of years, what changes that now? And throwing paint on someone is a violation of their freedom of choice. Acting like a child is not the way to get laws and regulations changed.

I agree they are ugly, but the fact is that someone spent money on it. I hate it so much when someone ruins another person's (expensive) property just because they are crazed.

How is veal not humane, natural, or healthy? Hell, arn't the farmers putting the cow out of the misery so they don't need to be tortured by being milked, pumped with more steriods, and locked in tight pens? I think so.

As far as healthy? Nothing is healthy in excess, this is why I try to practice moderation with everything I eat.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
I agree they are ugly, but the fact is that someone spent money on it. I hate it so much when someone ruins another person's (expensive) property just because they are crazed.

Animals killed just some some prick with more money than sense wants to wear a coat with their skins on is just sick. While I wouldnt usually advocate violence, people who wear fur coats need a bloody good clubbing themselves.


How is veal not humane, natural, or healthy? Hell, arn't the farmers putting the cow out of the misery so they don't need to be tortured by being milked, pumped with more steriods, and locked in tight pens? I think so.

Funny

So people that practice their right as consumers in a capatilistic country should be clubbed?

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
So people that practice their right as consumers in a capatilistic country should be clubbed?

- Arkans

Some things just shouldnt be sold

Like guns to civilians.

I think fur coats is way farther down the road being deemed as "Oh my god.. I, we, I mean, no... can't sell this," Then a bunch of other shit in our society.

but yeah, nothing beats seeing 70 year old woman rocking prada sunglasses and fendi bags, wearing wooly mammoths while going to canasta club :barf:

[xtc]

Originally posted by Psykos
People have worn fur coats for thousands of years, what changes that now? And throwing paint on someone is a violation of their freedom of choice. Acting like a child is not the way to get laws and regulations changed.

I am not a Nazi, I have gone through periods in my life where I did & didn't eat meat. I don't think it is hypocrytical to not eat meat and wear a leather belt. The key is to reduce the animals killed. I don't think being pious helps. We all harm our environment to some extent, I think the key is to reduce that harm where possible.

I don't not agree with the actions of the paint throwers. However it is an effective tactic. Despite popular opinion terrorism pays.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Wezas
I wish I liked salads and vegetables. They're good for you and it seems alot of people enjoy them. I've tried all kinds of different dressings & such.

My mom loves salads and vegetables. My dad has the same likes/dislikes as I do when it comes to food. No vegetables, no chinese food, no seafood.

Although for some reason I like Artichoke. I'm still trying to figure that shit out.

Salad Nicoise is the biz

[CrystalTears]

If vegetarians would just say "I don't eat meat", that would be fine. However most of my interactions is not JUST, " I don't eat meat", it comes along with "because it's bad for you/it's brutal to the animals/it's unhealthy/it's unnatural/it's inhumane/it looks nasty on my plate/the eggs remind me of birth and killing a baby chick and so forth.

Why bring up the other stuff? Can't you state your feelings or opinions without making a federal case out of it? So yeah, as long as you're lecturing me on the cruelty of animals while you wear a leather outfit and beat your submissive with a cattle prod, I'll mention how I like my meat bleeding on my plate.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Psykos
People have worn fur coats for thousands of years, what changes that now?

The fact that thousands of years ago, every part of the animal was used for some purpose. Food, clothing, fuel, paint for the walls...whatever. There was very little waste. There was no mass produced furs, it was kill as you need to kill and use what you kill. Thats when we were part of the food chain.

Now, we breed animals so we can kill them and make coats from them.

When was the last time you had a nice juicy mink steak for dinner?

:yeahthat: x 10000000

To CT's post.

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
If vegetarians would just say "I don't eat meat", that would be fine. However most of my interactions is not JUST, " I don't eat meat", it comes along with "because it's bad for you/it's brutal to the animals/it's unhealthy/it's unnatural/it's inhumane/it looks nasty on my plate/the eggs remind me of birth and killing a baby chick and so forth.

Why bring up the other stuff? Can't you state your feelings or opinions without making a federal case out of it? So yeah, as long as you're lecturing me on the cruelty of animals while you wear a leather outfit and beat your submissive with a cattle prod, I'll mention how I like my meat bleeding on my plate.

See that's not how it is for me.

Someone: Want a McDonalds?
me: No I dont eat meat.
Someone: Oh my god, whats wrong with you? Youre not one of those [insert whatever insult you want for veggies here] [insert whatever justification for eating meat here] [insert the last carnivourous meal they ate here]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Psykos
People have worn fur coats for thousands of years, what changes that now?

The fact that thousands of years ago, every part of the animal was used for some purpose. Food, clothing, fuel, paint for the walls...whatever. There was very little waste. There was no mass produced furs, it was kill as you need to kill and use what you kill. Thats when we were part of the food chain.

Now, we breed animals so we can kill them and make coats from them.

When was the last time you had a nice juicy mink steak for dinner?

Coats keep us warm. Human population is exponential to the time that it was when we were using animal entrails to paint our thatch-roofed cottages.

Now there are better, smarter, and MORE human beings, requiring a greater means for animal by-products due to our successful procreation.

All is fair though, as we can mass produce animals, so to speak, pump cows up with BGH, and use our evolutionary superior skills to get less from the animal, but more in a lumpsum.

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
If vegetarians would just say "I don't eat meat", that would be fine. However most of my interactions is not JUST, " I don't eat meat", it comes along with "because it's bad for you/it's brutal to the animals/it's unhealthy/it's unnatural/it's inhumane/it looks nasty on my plate/the eggs remind me of birth and killing a baby chick and so forth.

Why bring up the other stuff? Can't you state your feelings or opinions without making a federal case out of it? So yeah, as long as you're lecturing me on the cruelty of animals while you wear a leather outfit and beat your submissive with a cattle prod, I'll mention how I like my meat bleeding on my plate.

See that's not how it is for me.

Someone: Want a McDonalds?
me: No I dont eat meat.
Someone: Oh my god, whats wrong with you? Youre not one of those [insert whatever insult you want for veggies here] [insert whatever justification for eating meat here] [insert the last carnivourous meal they ate here]

Dunno if it's just me, but everything would be fine as almost all restaurants have a salad section that comes with meals, no problem. I as an omnivore would not complain. I don't complain when I am in the company of a Vegan or vegetarian when they are the first to instigate by Shoving Their Beliefs Down My Throat. There is no way, that a healthy omnivore is going to initiate the baleful meat-talk with a fellow veggie when our society provides far more accomidations than are neccesary for those who feel it neccesary to rape their diet to only legumes and fruit.

In other words, the shutting up needs to be 90% persuaded upon the part of the hippies and the other half can be worried about by the omnivores.

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Nieninque
When was the last time you had a nice juicy mink steak for dinner?

Do they sell mink meat in the United States?

I bet it tastes like chicken.

Damn I'm hungry.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley BurrellNow there are better, smarter, and MORE human beings, requiring a greater means for animal by-products due to our successful procreation.

Greater smarter human beings can find alternatives to most, if not all animal by products.

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Stanley BurrellNow there are better, smarter, and MORE human beings, requiring a greater means for animal by-products due to our successful procreation.

Greater smarter human beings can find alternatives to most, if not all animal by products.

That would be hypocritical, seeing as that we have bicuspids, molars and canines (SEE OMNIVORE) and that by dieting on a non-nutritionous tofu/veggie only platter would serve to damage us severely.

The superior one is those who achieve a healthy balance, albeit relating to food or clothing.

A "greater," "smarter" human being, as judged by your eloquent set of guidelines, would have to evolve into some kind of autotroph.

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

Who says that animal furs shouldn't be sold? I don't see the harm. If there is a market for it, by all means, go ahead and try and make some money. It's a free market we live in, use it. Just because you do not like it, it does not mean that it should be taken off the store shelves nor should violence be advocated against the people that have the money and want to buy such products.

- Arkans

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

<The fact that thousands of years ago, every part of the animal was used for some purpose. Food, clothing, fuel, paint for the walls...whatever. There was very little waste. There was no mass produced furs, it was kill as you need to kill and use what you kill. Thats when we were part of the food chain. >

So when cave men ran an entire herd of <insert juicy steak bearing mammal of choice here> off a cliffside, they then went down and used every bit of juicy steak bearing mammal?

I call bullshit on that. Man has, and likely always will be, wasteful. Why? Because we have opposable thumbs and we can shoot you with a cannon and cook you up. Until the squirrels and cows and chickens and pigs join up en mass a la Animal Farm, we will PWN the animal kingdom.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
That would be hypocritical, seeing as that we have bicuspids, molars and canines (SEE OMNIVORE) and that by dieting on a non-nutritionous tofu/veggie only platter would serve to damage us severely.

The superior one is those who achieve a healthy balance, albeit relating to food or clothing.

OK stanley you confuse me.

I am not advocating a meat free world, I eat seafood, so that would be hypocritical.

In terms of fur coats, the animals they come from just arent used for food...therefore the products or by-product of fur-farms, cannot be linked to the meat industry.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
Who says that animal furs shouldn't be sold? I don't see the harm. If there is a market for it, by all means, go ahead and try and make some money. It's a free market we live in, use it.

Where do you stand on child prostitution?

We're comparing animals to children now? Riiiiight.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
We're comparing animals to children now? Riiiiight.

- Arkans

So I take it you dont agree that child prostitution should fall under the umbrella of the "free market"?

So you accept that some things should not be sold?

Thank you

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
That would be hypocritical, seeing as that we have bicuspids, molars and canines (SEE OMNIVORE) and that by dieting on a non-nutritionous tofu/veggie only platter would serve to damage us severely.

The superior one is those who achieve a healthy balance, albeit relating to food or clothing.

OK stanley you confuse me.

I am not advocating a meat free world, I eat seafood, so that would be hypocritical.

In terms of fur coats, the animals they come from just arent used for food...therefore the products or by-product of fur-farms, cannot be linked to the meat industry.

Here's where you confuse me...

Greater smarter human beings can find alternatives to most, if not all animal by products.

The whole point is that there is a neccesity for, now on a new tangent, CLOTHING. Do I agree with wearing fur-clothing as a plausible lifestyle choice? -- Hell no, But I do recognize that it does support one of our 3 drives.

Unfortunately there exist realms where animal-safe name-brand label decaled cotton shirts aren't first in line to be donned as garments. There are still places in this world where fur clothing is the suitable and economically sound means of providing warmth to one's self.

As for discarding of animal carcasses used solely for fur intentions, this is true in some cases and nay-say in others... I'll reiterate; Geographically speaking, there are areas (still!) where the entire or most of the animal by-product is used.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I don't think Gemstone should be sold to people who RP 10 year olds, BUT IT IS.

No kidding. Obviously, hard drugs shouldn't be on the market either. Notice how the products that shouldn't be sold (according to me) harm human beings directly? There is a huge difference between products that actually harm people and those that you disagree on simply because of a moral issue.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley BurrellUnfortunately there exist realms where animal-safe name-brand label decaled cotton shirts aren't first in line to be donned as garments. There are still places in this world where fur clothing is the suitable and economically sound means of providing warmth to one's self.

As for discarding of animal carcasses used solely for fur intentions, this is true in some cases and nay-say in others... I'll reiterate; Geographically speaking, there are areas (still!) where the entire or most of the animal by-product is used.

Agreed.
None of those are New York, London or Paris

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Arkans
We're comparing animals to children now? Riiiiight.

- Arkans

So I take it you dont agree that child prostitution should fall under the umbrella of the "free market"?

So you accept that some things should not be sold?

Thank you

Holy fucking Christ. How low are you going to sink to make a point? WTF does child prostitution have to do with saying that there's a market for clothing?? You're talking about something that is ILLEGAL. Holy shit.

Let me ask you this. Why bring up "I don't eat meat" when you go somewhere? Can't you suggest somewhere else? Do you have to bring up your eating preferences? That's like if you want to eat at a cafe and I say "I'm against drinking coffee". Yeah? So? There are other things there available. Same with McDonalds. There are salads, rather good ones.

Your friend wants meat apparently. Go somewhere where he can gave it freely. Why does the meat eater have to sacrifice what they like to make the vegan happy? Find a compromise, but bringing up your preference as though it's more important just sounds demeaning and self-absorbed to me.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Wezas]

Off topic but somewhat on topic - McDonalds has an awesome Cinnamon Roll. It's humongous and hella tasty.

here's some helpful info the next time you're at McD's:

McDonald's Meatless Menu (http://www.mcdonalds.com/app_controller.nutrition.nutrition_tips.meatless.i ndex.html)

Did you know a quarter pounder has less calories than one of those salads? Fucking breaded deep fried chicken.

- Arkans

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Arkans
Did you know a quarter pounder has less calories than one of those salads? Fucking breaded deep fried chicken.

- Arkans

I just looked at ingredients and thought it was interesting that it doesn't say 100% beef patties until you get up to the quarter pounder. Regular Hamburgers & Cheeseburgers = pwned.

:lol2::lol2:

And people wonder why I don't eat at McDonald's.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

But you know what? If someone wants to eat there, just let them. Leave it them to decide what's good or bad for them, it's their body, their decision. To sit there and lecture them about it won't make the hunger pangs for a Big Mac go away.

It's the same principle as lecturing someone into quit smoking. Not gonna happen. They won't stop until they want to. Telling them the horrors will only make them want it more, don't ask me why. Must be the rebellious nature in many of us.

I just don't want to be eating my big burger from Chili's and have someone tsk behind me, glance up at them and then hear, "That burger is going to sit in your body for 5 days." Hi, I don't remember asking you to tell me that shit. Go away or I'm dripping the grease on your fancy, schmancy Gucci shoes.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I just don't want to be eating my big burger from Chili's and have someone tsk behind me, glance up at them and then hear, "That burger is going to sit in your body for 5 days." Hi, I don't remember asking you to tell me that shit. Go away or I'm dripping the grease on your fancy, schmancy Gucci shoes.

Did that actually happen? I'd be punchin the shit out of someone.

BTW, you're going to Chilis and not getting the Cajun Chicken Pasta? WTF is wrong with you?

Hey, if they want to eat at McDonald's, by all means. I won't lecture them or anything, I'll just chose something else.

- Arkans

I never understood ordering pasta at a restaurant. It's something I could do myself, y'know, the whole boiling of noodles and all. Their BBQ chicken salad is ub3r good though.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Actually a stranger didn't do that, a friend did, and it pissed me off. I told her to shut up and eat her plants.

By the way, I only eat burgers at Chili's during major beef cravings. I normally have either loaded nachos or one of the fajitas. Especially the STEAK ones.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

I'd kick the shit out of my friend of that ever happened to me.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Then again, this is the same woman who didn't eat eggs for a year because it reminded her of the eggs in her uterus and couldn't bear the thought of eating babies.

Ironically enough, last year while her mother was having a BBQ in her backyard, she picked up a rib out of curiosity and tried it. No more vegan! Ah, the power of meat.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Holy fucking Christ. How low are you going to sink to make a point? WTF does child prostitution have to do with saying that there's a market for clothing??

I'm talking about fur farms. I wholly accept a need to have clothing.


You're talking about something that is ILLEGAL. Holy shit.

So it is the law that says whether or not something is acceptable or not.
Fur farms are illegal in this country. Does that mean fur coats should be as well?



Let me ask you this. Why bring up "I don't eat meat" when you go somewhere? Can't you suggest somewhere else? Do you have to bring up your eating preferences? That's like if you want to eat at a cafe and I say "I'm against drinking coffee". Yeah? So? There are other things there available. Same with McDonalds. There are salads, rather good ones.


I wont eat in McDonalds for a number of reasons and used that as an example of a time when I have told people I dont eat meat.

Another example would be when going round someone's house for dinner. Or being offered food that includes meat, where a simple "no thank you" just isnt enough.

If you choose not to eat meat, or if you cant eat meat, then there are times when you have to tell people.


Your friend wants meat apparently. Go somewhere where he can gave it freely. Why does the meat eater have to sacrifice what they like to make the vegan happy? Find a compromise, but bringing up your preference as though it's more important just sounds demeaning and self-absorbed to me.



You are entitled to your opinion. I cook meat when I cook for people who eat it. I sit in McDonalds when my family or friends want to eat there. I choose not to eat it.
Thats my choice

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque

You're talking about something that is ILLEGAL. Holy shit.

So it is the law that says whether or not something is acceptable or not.
Fur farms are illegal in this country. Does that mean fur coats should be as well?

Your acceptance is based on morality issues, not legal ones.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Wezas
I wish I liked salads and vegetables. They have vegetables (that I wouldn't even look at otherwise) at the Pacifica counter of my school that are basically soaked in some kind of delicious juices. You can barely tell you're eating vegetables. I *think* it's a Cantonese style of cooking, but I'm not sure.
Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
I think fur coats is way farther down the road being deemed as "Oh my god.. I, we, I mean, no... can't sell this," Then a bunch of other shit in our society. I said the same kind of thing in the other thread. Therefore, Stan is right. :)
Originally posted by Nieninque
Thats when we were part of the food chain.

Now, we breed animals so we can kill them and make coats from them. I don't follow the logic. How are we any less "natural" than we were then? We used tools then, we use tools now. We were naturally born then, we're naturally born now.

[HarmNone]

What someone chooses to eat, or not to eat, is that person's business. As long as they are not forcing someone else to eat the same things they choose to eat, I don't see what the problem is. :?:

HarmNone, confuddled again

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Wezas
I wish I liked salads and vegetables. They have vegetables (that I wouldn't even look at otherwise) at the Pacifica counter of my school that are basically soaked in some kind of delicious juices. You can barely tell you're eating vegetables. I *think* it's a Cantonese style of cooking, but I'm not sure.

The only time I eat vegetables (except for corn, which is just yummy) is the aforementioned artichoke, and the occasional *canned only* green beans.

When I was growing up, my step-mom made stews now and then. I can deal with veggies if they're mushy and almost tasteless and drenched in beef juice.

[Sean]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Tijay
The point I was trying to make is that there is little difference between someone trying to rub in how good certain meats are when you mention your a vegatarian and you trying to tell us how bad we are for saying that we drink milk.

I dont agree.
Whilst not supporting the way that TOK agrued the point about milk, as it appears (and has been admitted by him) that he did so aggressively. However this was in the context of a thread asking about milk.

The people saying "I just ate a cow" in the Animal thread weren't promoting any argument against TOK's point of view, they were posting to be narks. If they said "Hey you veggie your agrument sucks and this is why..." then the camparison would be valid, but they didnt. :shrug:

I might agree with you if this thread was just about the animal thread and not the general response when he tells people hes a vegetarian. He just said hes been thinking about it since the animal debate thread.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by LatrinsormHow are we any less "natural" than we were then? We used tools then, we use tools now. We were naturally born then, we're naturally born now.

Because we never used to kill an animal to skin it and throw the rest away...just so we can make a few quid/dollars/whatever

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Because we never used to kill an animal to skin it and throw the rest away...just so we can make a few quid/dollars/whatever

Have you been alive since man started to exist? Can you say for sure that they didn't slaughter animals just for their hide and toss the remains away in order to trade for other wares? I'm just not buying that, and don't really like you throwing out that assumption based on... um... nothing... to base your point on.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Nieninque
Because we never used to kill an animal to skin it and throw the rest away...just so we can make a few quid/dollars/whatever

Have you been alive since man started to exist? Can you say for sure that they didn't slaughter animals just for their hide and toss the remains away in order to trade for other wares? I'm just not buying that, and don't really like you throwing out that assumption based on... um... nothing... to base your point on.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

We can base a lot of what we do upon studying different cultures throughout the world some of which still exist today.

You show me that global markets for fur farms existed thousands of years ago, and I will bow to your greater knowledge.

[CrystalTears]

I don't think they had fur farms, per say, but to say that they didn't skin animals for fur alone is questionable thinking to me.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I don't think they had fur farms, per say, but to say that they didn't skin animals for fur alone is questionable thinking to me.

Why?
Seems llike a lot of work for not as much as you could get from it, to just use the skin and not the rest.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Because we never used to kill an animal to skin it and throw the rest away...just so we can make a few quid/dollars/whatever What I mean is, humans are part of nature (more or less). How can anything we do not be "natural"?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

<We can base a lot of what we do upon studying different cultures throughout the world some of which still exist today.

You show me that global markets for fur farms existed thousands of years ago, and I will bow to your greater knowledge. >

As I asked before, explain how we didn't waste a thing when the cave men stampeded juicy scrumptious mammals off a cliff as a means of hunting them?

PS - Debating with you is like arguing with a ten year old (haha - get it? 10 year old? In case you missed it I'm making reference to your ridiculous roleplay). Just take your toys and go home already. You sound like Edine, with the "prove I'm wrong" method of debate. How about you show some scientific fact that ancient man (and lets see some dates so we can start debunking you right proper) did not hunt for sport.

[CrystalTears]

A brief history of trapping in North America (http://www.wild-about-trapping.com/trappers_ed/trappers_ed_007_trapping_history.htm)


The history of trapping dates back to the earliest days of mankind. For as long as people have tried to protect themselves from the elements, they have used the skins of furbearing animals. When the first humans arrived in North America, during the Ice Age some 11,000 years ago, much of the continent was covered by glaciers. These people would not have survived without their fur clothing.

North America has always provided a wealth of furbearing animals. The first European settlers to reach these shores quickly observed this. Fur became an article of trade in North America in the early 1600s. In the year 1670, the Hudson’s Bay Company was established in what is now Canada. The aim of this company was to buy fur pelts. This makes the harvest of furbearing animals one of the oldest industries in North America.

There are thousands of websites stating the need for furs that go back centuries. So again, to say that they didn't hunt just for furs is a big NU UH.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

Crystal Tears is smart.

Also, Nieneque, since when did you have a time machine?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by LatrinsormWhat I mean is, humans are part of nature (more or less). How can anything we do not be "natural"? [/quote]

Humans do things outside of nature, even things which fuck up nature.

As a race, we do plenty of things which arent "natural"

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
A brief history of trapping in North America (http://www.wild-about-trapping.com/trappers_ed/trappers_ed_007_trapping_history.htm)


The history of trapping dates back to the earliest days of mankind. For as long as people have tried to protect themselves from the elements, they have used the skins of furbearing animals. When the first humans arrived in North America, during the Ice Age some 11,000 years ago, much of the continent was covered by glaciers. These people would not have survived without their fur clothing.

North America has always provided a wealth of furbearing animals. The first European settlers to reach these shores quickly observed this. Fur became an article of trade in North America in the early 1600s. In the year 1670, the Hudson’s Bay Company was established in what is now Canada. The aim of this company was to buy fur pelts. This makes the harvest of furbearing animals one of the oldest industries in North America.

There are thousands of websites stating the need for furs that go back centuries. So again, to say that they didn't hunt just for furs is a big NU UH.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

Yeah well the time you are talking about is round about the time that things went down the pan.

I was talking of times pre-modern american history. Look at how things were before the North American settlers fucked up the way that the Native Americans had been living for god knows how long.

As for using skins at all, I'm not disputing that it happened, nor that it needed to happen.

The point I am trying to make now is that IT DOESNT NEED TO HAPPEN ANY MORE. At least not in so-called developed nations.

Everything a human does is driven by their mental thought processes which are quite natural and in lieu of this have a natural response to whatever it is the human is doing.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Crystal Tears is smart.

Also, Nieneque, since when did you have a time machine?

Round about the same time you got yours :p

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
<We can base a lot of what we do upon studying different cultures throughout the world some of which still exist today.

You show me that global markets for fur farms existed thousands of years ago, and I will bow to your greater knowledge. >

As I asked before, explain how we didn't waste a thing when the cave men stampeded juicy scrumptious mammals off a cliff as a means of hunting them?

PS - Debating with you is like arguing with a ten year old (haha - get it? 10 year old? In case you missed it I'm making reference to your ridiculous roleplay). Just take your toys and go home already. You sound like Edine, with the "prove I'm wrong" method of debate. How about you show some scientific fact that ancient man (and lets see some dates so we can start debunking you right proper) did not hunt for sport.

I am not saying there was no waste.
It doesnt compare to the scale upon which we do things now. I am saying there was no breeding of animals purely and simply so some prick with too much money and not enough sense could prance around in a fur coat.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Look at how things were before the North American settlers fucked up the way that the Native Americans had been living for god knows how long.According to what CT just posted, they had been living there for 11,000 years and trapping animals for as long as it was cold. And trust me, it gets pretty damn cold in North America.
Humans do things outside of nature, even things which fuck up nature.Please post your definition of nature, because I really can't figure out what it is.

Fair enough, but I wasn't even involved in your polite quarrel with CT, just reitterated on a fact that was pointed out.

[Nieninque]

In what way?

Because we never used to kill an animal to skin it and throw the rest away...just so we can make a few quid/dollars/whatever

[Nieninque]

You dont have to be there to get an idea about how things were.

Originally posted by Nieninque
You dont have to be there to get an idea about how things were.

Sorry Nieneque, but that's pretty ignorant, and although I never do this, I'm going to make a pathetic attempt to draw an analogy.

I have never served or been to Iraq, but, you know, because I feel a certain way about something must absolutely make it fact. I believe, that the Americans are simply bombing the shit out of Iraq in the ultimate plan of erecting a global 7-11 chain. This type of dangerous reasoning is what you are applying where you are basing fact on no proof.

/endanalogy

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell

Originally posted by Nieninque
You dont have to be there to get an idea about how things were.

Sorry Nieneque, but that's pretty ignorant, and although I never do this, I'm going to make a pathetic attempt to draw an analogy.

I have never served or been to Iraq, but, you know, because I feel a certain way about something must absolutely make it fact. I believe, that the Americans are simply bombing the shit out of Iraq in the ultimate plan of erecting a global 7-11 chain. This type of dangerous reasoning is what you are applying where you are basing fact on no proof.

/endanalogy

Well your analogy was the ignorant bit.
I didnt say there was no proof.
I just said I hadnt personally been there

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque
You dont have to be there to get an idea about how things were.

I'm really hoping that you've never told off someone who assumed something about your character because they haven't personally interacted with munchkin, because then I'd think you were really being a huge hypocrite with this statement and I'd have to stop talking to you on this issue.

Listen to me, seriously...

You stated a fact, which has the basis of proof, there was no proof, and by you stating so you just come out as a tad hypocritical and also wrong.

P.S. I am not beefing with you.

[Nieninque]

Another stupid analogy from the PC

Edited to spell analogy right

[Edited on 23-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Listen to me, seriously...

You stated a fact, which has the basis of proof, there was no proof, and by you stating so you just come out as a tad hypocritical and also wrong.

There is plenty of proof about the way people used to live in times past.



P.S. I am not beefing with you.

I dont eat meat

[CrystalTears]

Yeah well, you started it with the child prostitution vs fur coats thing. :P

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yeah well, you started it with the child prostitution vs fur coats thing. :P

heh

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque
There is plenty of proof about the way people used to live in times past.


Show the proof of where it says that cavemen DID NOT use animals STRICTLY for fur!

[Nieninque]

How do you prove a negative?
Show me that they did

Originally posted by Nieninque
How do you prove a negative?
Show me that they did

Do you want a laboratorical definition of this?

[CrystalTears]

I'm not the one saying that there is PROOF of what happened back then and that it probably didn't happen. Good grief.

:banghead:

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yeah well, you started it with the child prostitution vs fur coats thing. :P

And that's not quite what I said.
Arkans was arguing that if there is a market for something, it should be sold. That the justification for selling it is that someone will buy it. I dont believe that is a justification for selling something because at the end of the day there is always someone who will buy anything that is being sold. The air guitar that was being sold on ebay for instance...and child prostitutes at the other end. It hasnt always been illegal. When it wasnt, does that make it right? Of course not. It is morally, socially and (now) legally wrong. Fur farming is the same (at least here)...therefore benefitting from fur-farming should be the same.

[CrystalTears]

It's a shame we can't eat humans (mm long pig). All those cemetaries full of discarded carsasses. All that damned land, wasted on dead people. :P

Good point.

Now show proof of where neanderthals used every part of a cow.

[Nieninque]

there is evidence that they used a whole load more of it that is used of mink in the fur coat industry

[DeV]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yeah well, you started it with the child prostitution vs fur coats thing. :P

And that's not quite what I said.
Arkans was arguing that if there is a market for something, it should be sold. That the justification for selling it is that someone will buy it. I dont believe that is a justification for selling something because at the end of the day there is always someone who will buy anything that is being sold. The air guitar that was being sold on ebay for instance...and child prostitutes at the other end. It hasnt always been illegal. When it wasnt, does that make it right? Of course not. It is morally, socially and (now) legally wrong. Fur farming is the same (at least here)...therefore benefitting from fur-farming should be the same. You forgot about the guy selling air from Hurricane Ivan in a tupperware container.

[CrystalTears]

Stanley you're being udderly ridiculous.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Stanley you're being udderly ridiculous.

:lol2: Quite clever.

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yeah well, you started it with the child prostitution vs fur coats thing. :P

And that's not quite what I said.
Arkans was arguing that if there is a market for something, it should be sold. That the justification for selling it is that someone will buy it. I dont believe that is a justification for selling something because at the end of the day there is always someone who will buy anything that is being sold. The air guitar that was being sold on ebay for instance...and child prostitutes at the other end. It hasnt always been illegal. When it wasnt, does that make it right? Of course not. It is morally, socially and (now) legally wrong. Fur farming is the same (at least here)...therefore benefitting from fur-farming should be the same.

You left out the point that I made in another post. I answered your child prostitution question by saying that you cannot compare something illegal that harms people with the fur industry, which is legal and does not harm people.

Using your example, I would be advocating for the sale of hard drugs, but I think everyone here can agree that cocaine and heroine shouldn't be available on the open market, as they harm our society as a whole.

I truly don't see the harm in selling fur. If that's the fashion statement that someone wishes to make, who is anyone here to say they shouldn't? Why should we (you) be advocating violence against them with a club or the destruction of their bought property?

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
You left out the point that I made in another post. I answered your child prostitution question by saying that you cannot compare something illegal that harms people with the fur industry, which is legal and does not harm people.


I left out lots of parts, otherwise I would have been repeating the whole thread again.
As I said, fur farming is illegal in this country. Cruelty to pets does not hurt people but is actually against the law. Having sex with animals (arguably) doesnt hurt people, but is against the law. There are lots of things that dont hurt people but are against the law. So saying that something cannot be compared to fur farming because it doesnt hurt people and is against the law is stupid.

Edited to add: And also, it wasnt a comparison to fur farming. It was a question related to your statement that if someone wants to buy something, it should be allowed to be sold. Free markets and all.


Using your example, I would be advocating for the sale of hard drugs, but I think everyone here can agree that cocaine and heroine shouldn't be available on the open market, as they harm our society as a whole.

I truly don't see the harm in selling fur. If that's the fashion statement that someone wishes to make, who is anyone here to say they shouldn't? Why should we (you) be advocating violence against them with a club or the destruction of their bought property?
for the same reason that the coat they are wearing was made beginning with the clubbing of a seal (for instance). While I wasnt saying that people should actually be clubbed, they do need some sense inserted into their obviously empty heads.

[Edited on 23-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Keller]

Originally posted by Arkans
Who says that nuclear weapons shouldn't be sold? I don't see the harm. If there is a market for it, by all means, go ahead and try and make some money. It's a free market we live in, use it. Just because you do not like it, it does not mean that it should be taken off the store shelves nor should violence be advocated against the people that have the money and want to buy such products.

- Arkans


You're fucking sick man, just plain sick. Call DHS, we've got a sympathizer!! What's next, are you going to actually follow Zakat (one of the fice pillars of your religion) and give to muslim charities? You terrorist!!

[Bobmuhthol]

<<There was no mass produced furs, it was kill as you need to kill and use what you kill. Thats when we were part of the food chain.

Now, we breed animals so we can kill them and make coats from them.>>

Hey, guess what. More people are alive today than have ever lived before. If you want to kill wild animals instead of breeding them, then I hope you enjoy dying very quickly.

Originally posted by Keller

Originally posted by Arkans
Who says that nuclear weapons shouldn't be sold? I don't see the harm. If there is a market for it, by all means, go ahead and try and make some money. It's a free market we live in, use it. Just because you do not like it, it does not mean that it should be taken off the store shelves nor should violence be advocated against the people that have the money and want to buy such products.

- Arkans


You're fucking sick man, just plain sick. Call DHS, we've got a sympathizer!! What's next, are you going to actually follow Zakat (one of the fice pillars of your religion) and give to muslim charities? You terrorist!!


ROFLMAO

Awesome

- Arkans

Last time I checked, nuclear weapons can and have hurt people.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<There was no mass produced furs, it was kill as you need to kill and use what you kill. Thats when we were part of the food chain.

Now, we breed animals so we can kill them and make coats from them.>>

Hey, guess what. More people are alive today than have ever lived before. If you want to kill wild animals instead of breeding them, then I hope you enjoy dying very quickly.

Hey, guess what. We dont need animals for tools, clothes, bedding, tent materials, weapon materials, string, threads and a whole load of different stuff. We can make use of other materials to do so. We can even make the materials to do so.

Can you honestly tell me that all (100%) of fur coats come from illegal fur farms?

- Arkans

Why pay more for a product made out of other materials when you can pay less?

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Arkans
Can you honestly tell me that all (100%) of fur coats come from illegal fur farms?

- Arkans

She can't.

American Legend Mink Source - facts about fur farming (http://www.americanlegend.com/alcfacts.html)

[Nieninque]

of course not.
Whether or not the farms are illegal in the country they are made in isnt the point.
The fact that it is unnecessary, is.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
Why pay more for a product made out of other materials when you can pay less?

- Arkans

Fur coats are a damn sight more expensive that fake fur.

The thing about man-made materials is generally that it is cheap.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Hey, guess what. We dont need animals for tools, clothes, bedding, tent materials, weapon materials, string, threads and a whole load of different stuff. We can make use of other materials to do so. We can even make the materials to do so.>>

Maybe I don't want to put valuable things to waste. Maybe I'd rather kill a worthless animal instead. Maybe millions of people think like I do, and maybe that's why what you're saying doesn't make a difference.

[xtc]

Originally posted by Keller

Originally posted by Arkans
Who says that nuclear weapons shouldn't be sold? I don't see the harm. If there is a market for it, by all means, go ahead and try and make some money. It's a free market we live in, use it. Just because you do not like it, it does not mean that it should be taken off the store shelves nor should violence be advocated against the people that have the money and want to buy such products.

- Arkans


You're fucking sick man, just plain sick. Call DHS, we've got a sympathizer!! What's next, are you going to actually follow Zakat (one of the fice pillars of your religion) and give to muslim charities? You terrorist!!

lol talk about an alarmist do you work for the Bush campaign. I didn't know Arkans was a Muslim let's lock him up for that lol.
I think what you are looking for is Zakah or Zakaah not Zakat. Zakaah is like giving of alms to the poor, what a horrible concept. Have you heard of tithing in Christianity where you are asked to give 10% of your income to the church on a yearly basis.

I may not agree with the free sale of Nuclear Arms but lets put a post on a gaming site in perspective.

[Bobmuhthol]

No, it's definitely Zakat.

Sure, fake fur is cheaper. Of course, you pay in other areas for it. I'm sure that poor old lady could be comitting social suicide by getting found out that she is wearing a fake fur coat.

Regardless, I'm talking about other products mainly. I'd rather not go out of my way and purchase a possibly inferior/more expensive product, instead of using animal products.

So the statement stands. Who is anyone here to say that fur coats shouldn't be sold? We already established that they are not all made illegally and they do not harm humans, so...?

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Maybe I don't want to put valuable things to waste. Maybe I'd rather kill a worthless animal instead. Maybe millions of people think like I do, and maybe that's why what you're saying doesn't make a difference.

You have it back to front. No change there then.

And what I say only doesnt make a difference if I stop saying it.

[xtc]

Zakah or Zakaah

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/intropillars.html

http://www.islam101.com/dawah/pillars.html

Woah, woah.. I'm not Muslim! That was a joke post! I'm Roman Catholic all the way! (That obviously means I hate gays, jews, blacks, and hispanics.)

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans

So the statement stands. Who is anyone here to say that fur coats shouldn't be sold? We already established that they are not all made illegally and they do not harm humans, so...?

- Arkans

And that is a poor justification for something happening. Still.
There is plenty that falls under those two statements that are still wrong and still shouldnt happen. I believe fur farms are one of them

So just because illegal fur farms are used in the fur industry then they should be banned? Wow, that's a lot of things that should be banned, since there is some black market activity associated with it.

- Arkans

[Bobmuhthol]

My 177,000 results of Zakat outweigh your 3,300 results of Zakaah. I win.

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 3,300 for zakaah. (0.09 seconds)

Did you mean: zakat

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[xtc]

lol @ Arkans you seemed to be so afraid to be thought of as a Muslim

Damn me for wanting to be known for what I really am!

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
So just because illegal fur farms are used in the fur industry then they should be banned? Wow, that's a lot of things that should be banned, since there is some black market activity associated with it.

- Arkans

Thats not why they should be banned.
They should be banned because there is no need for fashion furs to be made or worn. It is made at the cost of killing a living creature that neednt be killed. There is no use in the rest of the animal. that is just wasted. There is no survival need to wearing it. It is simply ridiculous vanity, which does not warrant the death of animals.

And what authority are you to say that it's just a "ridiculous" fashion statement? Maybe it is not so ridiculous to some person? Why not give the people the CHOICE whether they want to support the fur industry or not?

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
And what authority are you to say that it's just a "ridiculous" fashion statement? Maybe it is not so ridiculous to some person? Why not give the people the CHOICE whether they want to support the fur industry or not?

- Arkans

Why not give people the choice to show whether they want to support the drugs industry, or the arms industry, or the sale of human organs.

And it isnt wrong because it is a fashion mistake. It's wrong because it involves killing.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Nieninque
there is evidence that they used a whole load more of it that is used of mink in the fur coat industry

Some points;
2) You like posting like you are talking about facts, you should stop that
IV) Are you at the point where you are arguing just because you are so bullheaded you won't stop yet? Have you threatened to hold your breath?
D) Seems to me we use all the of the mink, therefore, based on your argument USE = OK, Mink farms are ok.
a) Were it me, I'd be all like "I'm not changing my mind, since you've (various people) proven me wrong over and over again. We'll just have to agree to disagree"

Per some website someone above me posted.

http://www.americanlegend.com/alcfacts.html

Notice how everything is purportedly used?

[Nieninque]

I like the part where the livestock and poultry are fedthe carcasses.
lets fuck up the food chain some more



[Edited on 23-9-04 by Nieninque]

I'll say it again. The fur industry does not harm people. Your examples do.

- Arkans

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You realize most feed is based from animals right?

[xtc]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
My 177,000 results of Zakat outweigh your 3,300 results of Zakaah. I win.

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 3,300 for zakaah. (0.09 seconds)

Did you mean: zakat

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

lol, man you give me a good laugh. If you had quoted a noted Islamic scholar I may have deferred to you but google lol. To quote H.L. Mencken No one in this world, as far as I know...has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."

My point was simply that it is laughable to think of the giving of alms to the poor as being a terrorist activity. I hope the poster was being sarcastic

[Bobmuhthol]

I think you're unaware that dog food exists and contains multiple animal carcasses. I guess taking that same concept and using it to feed other animals fucks everything up.

Hint: The world has not exploded yet. You're an idiot for saying anything got fucked up, ESPECIALLY something as big as the food chain. None of these animals are extinct, making you wrong.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
You realize most feed is based from animals right?

I realise that BSE came from farmers feeding mushed up animal carcasses to animals.

I also realise that cows, sheep and I'm pretty sure chickens too, are actually vegetarian

Originally posted by xtc

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
My 177,000 results of Zakat outweigh your 3,300 results of Zakaah. I win.

Web Results 1 - 10 of about 3,300 for zakaah. (0.09 seconds)

Did you mean: zakat

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

lol, man you give me a good laugh. If you had quoted a noted Islamic scholar I may have deferred to you but google lol. To quote H.L. Mencken No one in this world, as far as I know...has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."

My point was simply that it is laughable to think of the giving of alms to the poor as being a terrorist activity. I hope the poster was being sarcastic

Either sarcasm or stupidity.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
I think you're unaware that dog food exists and contains multiple animal carcasses. I guess taking that same concept and using it to feed other animals fucks everything up.

Dogs are carnivorous.


Hint: The world has not exploded yet. You're an idiot for saying anything got fucked up, ESPECIALLY something as big as the food chain. None of these animals are extinct, making you wrong. BSE did a pretty good job of fucking up the food chain

Have you asked them?

- Arkans

[xtc]

Originally posted by Arkans
Damn me for wanting to be known for what I really am!

- Arkans

hey Arkans I can understanding correcting a misconception about your Religion. It was the way in which it was done that I found humurous.

"Woah, woah.. I'm not Muslim! That was a joke post!"

two woahs and two exclamation marks........it just struck me that people have become so afraid to be associated with Islam in the west, that's all.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Arkans
Have you asked them?

- Arkans

Has who asked who?

[CrystalTears]

Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights (http://www.furcommission.com/debate/index.html)

"As an extension of this animal rights philosophy, a number of people are embracing veganism, relying exclusively on plant-based food, and plant-based and synthetic clothing. However, with less than 3 percent of the Earth's surface being suitable for crop production, animal protein and fiber will continue to be indispensible to the survival of the planet's 6 billion people, and to the conservation of natural habitat. It is for these reasons that the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) promotes the use by humans of both plants and animals, domestic and wild."

If chickens are vegetarian. I remember back when I was a kid, I was on my grandmother's farm. She accidentally dropped an egg that had a fetus in it (gross) and the chicken done and ate the thing faster than I could blink. These were not underfed chickens either.

- Arkans

[Bobmuhthol]

<<lol, man you give me a good laugh. If you had quoted a noted Islamic scholar I may have deferred to you but google lol. To quote H.L. Mencken No one in this world, as far as I know...has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.">>

http://www.islaam.com/Section.aspx?id=12

I still win.

<<Dogs are carnivorous.>>

If by carnivorous, you mean omnivorous.

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights (http://www.furcommission.com/debate/index.html)

"As an extension of this animal rights philosophy, a number of people are embracing veganism, relying exclusively on plant-based food, and plant-based and synthetic clothing. However, with less than 3 percent of the Earth's surface being suitable for crop production, animal protein and fiber will continue to be indispensible to the survival of the planet's 6 billion people, and to the conservation of natural habitat. It is for these reasons that the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) promotes the use by humans of both plants and animals, domestic and wild."

Poor animals. We should obviously be killing of people to insure that more survive.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights (http://www.furcommission.com/debate/index.html)

"As an extension of this animal rights philosophy, a number of people are embracing veganism, relying exclusively on plant-based food, and plant-based and synthetic clothing. However, with less than 3 percent of the Earth's surface being suitable for crop production, animal protein and fiber will continue to be indispensible to the survival of the planet's 6 billion people, and to the conservation of natural habitat. It is for these reasons that the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) promotes the use by humans of both plants and animals, domestic and wild."

I repeat, I am not an advocate for a vegan world. I believe that some of the things we use animals for are redundant. I believe the way in which we use most of the animals we use is cruel and unnecessary.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Arkans
Poor animals. We should obviously be killing of people to insure that more survive.

- Arkans

Is that you volunteering?

Me volunteering you.

- Arkans

DOUBLE-SARCASM WHAMMY! :weird:

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Arkans
Me volunteering you.

- Arkans

But I don't want to kill anybody!

Well maybe Psykos...

[xtc]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<lol, man you give me a good laugh. If you had quoted a noted Islamic scholar I may have deferred to you but google lol. To quote H.L. Mencken No one in this world, as far as I know...has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people.">>

http://www.islaam.com/Section.aspx?id=12

I still win.

<<Dogs are carnivorous.>>

If by carnivorous, you mean omnivorous.

http://zakat.al-islam.com/def/default.asp?l=eng&filename=def/desc/item1/item1/desc1

Neither of us have quoted an noted Islamic scholar. An internet site with Islam in the name doesn't make for a scholar necessarily.

ps you win, you win what? how old are you?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Animal Welfare vs. Animal Rights (http://www.furcommission.com/debate/index.html)

"As an extension of this animal rights philosophy, a number of people are embracing veganism, relying exclusively on plant-based food, and plant-based and synthetic clothing. However, with less than 3 percent of the Earth's surface being suitable for crop production, animal protein and fiber will continue to be indispensible to the survival of the planet's 6 billion people, and to the conservation of natural habitat. It is for these reasons that the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) promotes the use by humans of both plants and animals, domestic and wild."

I repeat, I am not an advocate for a vegan world. I believe that some of the things we use animals for are redundant. I believe the way in which we use most of the animals we use is cruel and unnecessary.

Actually I posted that in response to the post saying that animals don't need to be used, when in actuality, humans can't live without them for many of our daily needs.

Cruel and unnecessary? So this is about what you deem as not necessary not really the cruelty to animals, since they are actually cared for and nurtured better than many humans before they are killed.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Actually I posted that in response to the post saying that animals don't need to be used, when in actuality, humans can't live without them for many of our daily needs.

Cruel and unnecessary? So this is about what you deem as not necessary not really the cruelty to animals, since they are actually cared for and nurtured better than many humans before they are killed.

We dont need to treal animals or people cruelly. Therefore cruelty is unnecessary.

[CrystalTears]

In the sites I posted, they don't treat their animals with any kind of cruelty (aside from the killing for the furs, heh). They are feed, well cared for and don't even suffer needlessly.

Again, this is about what YOU deem as unnecessary, not about the poor suffering animals, which aren't even suffering for this cause.

Bah, you know what? I apologize to the readers who are probably sick of this discussion. I'll agree to disagree because she'll always think she's right even though I post at least some information and she's going on notions and feelings (whoa, whoa, whoa feelings). So I'm gonna bow out of this. Sorry guys. I'm done.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Bobmuhthol]

You don't need to live, and the universe does not need to exist. Therefore, life and existence is unnecessary. Work on that.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
In the sites I posted, they don't treat their animals with any kind of cruelty (aside from the killing for the furs, heh). They are feed, well cared for and don't even suffer needlessly.

Again, this is about what YOU deem as unnecessary, not about the poor suffering animals, which aren't even suffering for this cause.

Bah, you know what? I apologize to the readers who are probably sick of this discussion. I'll agree to disagree because she'll always think she's right even though I post at least some information and she's going on notions and feelings (whoa, whoa, whoa feelings). So I'm gonna bow out of this. Sorry guys. I'm done.

[Edited on 9/23/2004 by CrystalTears]

That is such patronising bullshit.
You are so guilty of all you are accusing me of.
And I am going on more than just notions and feelings.
I am going on the information that was made available in the news about BSE.
I am going on stuff from organisations such as these:
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/campaigns/index.html

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/

Your little tantrum there smacks of "waaah...she wont shut up when I tell her I know more than her so Im not playing any more"

[CrystalTears]

One more post just to clarify something...

You were asked nicely repeatedly to quote the facts and information you were getting all that from. You weren't giving it. So I was tired of discussing something with someone that would just go on her opinions and not about anything else. I don't know everything which is why I was looking it all up. So thanks NOW for the websites you were basing this all on. THAT'S ALL I FUCKING WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

<Your little tantrum there smacks of "waaah...she wont shut up when I tell her I know more than her so Im not playing any more" >

Heh, I think this of you in every debate I've seen you post in, even the ones where I agree with you.

I believe the post above is your FIRST citing any references, til now, your argument has shifted from "Save the minks" to "Minks aren't utilized in any fashion other than being skinned" to "The world will end because Minks are utilized in a fashion for feeding".

You don't have a solid argument at all, you just say things off hand and wonder when people point and say "I call bullshit", because you don't say why, just that it is so.

I too, am taking my toys and going home, arguing with you is like trying to convince Psykos we are on to him.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Your little tantrum there smacks of "waaah...she wont shut up when I tell her I know more than her so Im not playing any more">>

Your little sentence there makes no fucking sense.

[Meos]

Whenever I see the title of this thread I think of that song Maneater by Hall and Oats. :offtopic:

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

HAHA, CT and I think alike sometimes.

[Nieninque]

I wasnt basing it on the websites. Those are just two of the organisations who I have learned stuff that has formed a part of my beliefs.

I have only just looked at those, although the content therein is much the same as stuff I have heard from them before.

[Back]

The Animal Aid people at least have a sense of humor.


Highlighting the horror of this type of research, on Wednesday 22 September Animal Aid supporters will be riding around Oxford on tandem bicycles, dressed as boggly-eyed, mad scientists in blood-covered laboratory coats.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Those are just two of the organisations who I have learned stuff that has formed a part of my beliefs.>>

I get it, you're arguing what you think is right, not what actually is right based on facts.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
<Your little tantrum there smacks of "waaah...she wont shut up when I tell her I know more than her so Im not playing any more" >

Heh, I think this of you in every debate I've seen you post in, even the ones where I agree with you.

I believe the post above is your FIRST citing any references, til now, your argument has shifted from "Save the minks" to "Minks aren't utilized in any fashion other than being skinned" to "The world will end because Minks are utilized in a fashion for feeding".


I can think off the top of my head of only two other references that have been posted on the whole thread. It's not like everyone else was doing it and I wasnt.


You don't have a solid argument at all, you just say things off hand and wonder when people point and say "I call bullshit", because you don't say why, just that it is so.

I have been saying why. I am loathe to use internet references because as Bob proves time and time again, the internet can support whatever argument you wish to promote at any given time. Had I realised that the only thing hampering the discussion was the lack of references, however, I would have been posting them all over. For that I apologise.


I too, am taking my toys and going home, arguing with you is like trying to convince Psykos we are on to him.
Ouch.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Those are just two of the organisations who I have learned stuff that has formed a part of my beliefs.>>

I get it, you're arguing what you think is right, not what actually is right based on facts.

My beliefs are generally based upon facts

[Bobmuhthol]

Prove it.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Prove it.
:lol:

fuck off

[Back]

The Meatrix (http://www.themeatrix.com)

[Keller]

I was a theology major in college and I always I was always taught it was zakat. Although, I am sure there are different ways to spell it. I think the argument over who is right is lame. You both are.

And Arkans, as a Roman Catholic you left out work as one of the things you hate. :whistle:

[Chelle]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
If vegetarians would just say "I don't eat meat", that would be fine. However most of my interactions is not JUST, " I don't eat meat", it comes along with "because it's bad for you/it's brutal to the animals/it's unhealthy/it's unnatural/it's inhumane/it looks nasty on my plate/the eggs remind me of birth and killing a baby chick and so forth.

Why bring up the other stuff? Can't you state your feelings or opinions without making a federal case out of it? So yeah, as long as you're lecturing me on the cruelty of animals while you wear a leather outfit and beat your submissive with a cattle prod, I'll mention how I like my meat bleeding on my plate.

See that's not how it is for me.

Someone: Want a McDonalds?
me: No I dont eat meat.
Someone: Oh my god, whats wrong with you? Youre not one of those [insert whatever insult you want for veggies here] [insert whatever justification for eating meat here] [insert the last carnivourous meal they ate here]

It isn't necessary to respond with. Oh I dont eat meat. When someone asks you if you want to go to McDonalds. Why even say that? The response you get is probably based on the tone of voice and attitude you displayed when you say, "I don't eat meat."

Newsflash: McDonalds has salads too. In fact, most fast food restaurants do have salads now.

Also I don't give a damn whether someone eats meat or not. If you don't want to eat at a certain place, because you think the ONLY thing on the menu is meat. Then, simply suggest a different spot to eat. There are ways of going about things without acting like a stuckup asshole.

It may be YOUR opinion that eating a steak is murder, but don't impose that opinion on other people to belittle them. People will argue that is why the animals were put here. To feed and provide us with warmth. Some people disagree with that. That is fine. To each his own, but don't be a bitch just because someone disagrees with you.

There is nothing wrong with someone saying mmm I love my steak nice and rare. Say, well thats nice, but have you tried the portabello mushroom pasta dish? Its simply scrumptious. People with diffrent opinions can share why they like the certain things they like without being rude. Can they not?

[Faent]

>>No, I'm not. I've already described why it is different. -ThisOtherBitch

Tijay OWNED you, fool!

-Scott

Hey, we work! You think inquisitions happen by themselves?!?

- Arkans

[xtc]

I know that PETA has a radical bias but it seems that Vegetarianism is better for the environment and will feed more people.

http://www.goveg.com/feat/enviro.html

http://www.petaindia.org/venviro.html

[Keller]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I too, am taking my toys and going home, arguing with you is like trying to convince Psykos we are on to him.

Is he really Lycain? I see that pop up every once in a while.

Also, I agree that she has changed her statements and had no depth to her argument. This coming from someone who totally supports anyones choices in eating, as long as they are not superficial whinny brats about it.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by xtc
I know that PETA has a radical bias but it seems that Vegetarianism is better for the environment and will feed more people.


... according to their own websites.

Jorddyn

Getting information from PETA on your eating habits is like reading Nazi propaganda to decide what political party you'll join.

- Arkans

[Bobmuhthol]

<<it seems that Vegetarianism is better for the environment and will feed more people.>>

The quality of the food drops so more people can live? No thanks. I'll continue to live well, and anyone who can't can deal with it.

GODWIN I LOSE

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Chelle
It isn't necessary to respond with. Oh I dont eat meat. When someone asks you if you want to go to McDonalds. Why even say that? The response you get is probably based on the tone of voice and attitude you displayed when you say, "I don't eat meat."

Firstly, it was the first example I thought of (and probably not a very good example as there are plenty of reasons why I wont go to muckdonalds, the fact that I dont eat meat being only one of them). As I posted a few posts later, there are times when you need to tell people that you dont eat meat.
Secondly, as you arent there when I have conversations at any time, dont assume that my tone is any particular way. I choose not to eat meat. Other people can eat dogshit for all I care, that's their choice. I just wont be joining them in eating it. I will probably also tell them that its not very good for them. My tone, will remain undetectable by you on a message board.


Newsflash: McDonalds has salads too. In fact, most fast food restaurants do have salads now.

Newsflash: Muckdonalds is shit.


Also I don't give a damn whether someone eats meat or not. If you don't want to eat at a certain place, because you think the ONLY thing on the menu is meat. Then, simply suggest a different spot to eat. There are ways of going about things without acting like a stuckup asshole.


Friend: My mum is cooking dinner for you tonight as a thank you for looking after our cat while we were on holiday. We are having pheasant.
Me: Thank you thats very nice, but I will decline.

You think I should keep it a secret as to why I am not going? Or you think I should tell them that I would love to go but I dont eat meat?


It may be YOUR opinion that eating a steak is murder, but don't impose that opinion on other people to belittle them.

Where have I done that? Go take your prickly knickers off and come back and read what I have said.

I dont eat meat.
I cook meat for other people who choose to eat it when it is my turn to cook. Is that OK with you?


People will argue that is why the animals were put here. To feed and provide us with warmth. Some people disagree with that. That is fine. To each his own, but don't be a bitch just because someone disagrees with you.

There is nothing wrong with someone saying mmm I love my steak nice and rare. Say, well thats nice, but have you tried the portabello mushroom pasta dish? Its simply scrumptious. People with diffrent opinions can share why they like the certain things they like without being rude. Can they not?

I dont understand what the fuck you are going on about :shrug:

[Back]

We must rise above our physicality. Our intellect is the real vehicle to evolution. The mind is more powerful than the body... oh fuck it, gimme a cheeseburger and a six-pack.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
Also, I agree that she has changed her statements

Such as?

I fucking hate when people say, "That's not healthy for you." Show me a legit. source that says meat is the devil.

- Arkans

[Nieninque]

Depends what you call legit, but...

http://www.askdrsears.com/html/4/T043500.asp

[Chelle]

No I wasn't assuming anything. I was just going by what you said. :) What I was trying to convey is that when you say "No I dont eat meat" when someone asks you to whatever restaurant, and they respond with an attitude, is probably because of the attitude and tone you may have had to begin with. Whether it was intentional or not. People just don't respond with an attitude for no reason. You're tone may have sounded negative.

[Artha]

Is it just to rub it in the faces of the vegetarians that were posting?

Yep.


Whenever I say I'm a vegetarian, I don't start rattling off my favorite foods, "Mmm, I love seitan and spinach, and mushrooms and eggplant. It's sooooo good, you guys are missing out!"

The difference being that, if I wanted to, I could eat your favorite foods and not throw them up.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Chelle
No I wasn't assuming anything. I was just going by what you said. :) What I was trying to convey is that when you say "No I dont eat meat" when someone asks you to whatever restaurant, and they respond with an attitude, is probably because of the attitude and tone you may have had to begin with. Whether it was intentional or not. People just don't respond with an attitude for no reason. You're tone may have sounded negative.

I should have used a better example in the first place, but I often still get a response similar to the one I described, even when my tone is sweet as pie

All I know is that I don't need some vegan telling me what is healthy or not. Pass the MEAT.

- Arkans

[Keller]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Keller
Also, I agree that she has changed her statements
Such as?
In the beginning there was ...

Fur coats are ugly. I personally would throw the paint on the wearer rather than the coat. People who wear real fur are sick
Are the coats ugly? Or are the people sick? Or are the people sick for wearing ugly coats?

Animals killed just [so] some prick with more money than sense wants to wear a coat with their skins on is just sick.
Oh, I am starting to get it. The people who wear the coats are not themselves sick, just the idea of wearing coats is sick. Must be because the coats are ugly, right?

Some things just shouldnt be sold
Because they are ugly and help people to make sick decisions, right?

In terms of fur coats, the animals they come from just arent used for food...therefore the products or by-product of fur-farms, cannot be linked to the meat industry.
Well, you change the rationale, but this seems like a good point if it’s true.

there is evidence that they used a whole load more of it that is used of mink in the fur coat industry
Not in this post there wasn’t!

for the same reason that the coat they are wearing was made beginning with the clubbing of a seal (for instance). While I wasnt saying that people should actually be clubbed, they do need some sense inserted into their obviously empty heads.
You forgot, they were baby seals, and they also needed some sense knocked into them for wanting to become such ugly coats that made people sick, or just make sick decisions, which should be illegal.

of course not.
Whether or not the farms are illegal in the country they are made in isnt the point.
The fact that it is unnecessary, is.
Ok, so it’s not because you disagree because we only use the fur and not the rest of the mink, it’s because you think we have better ways to stay warm?

And it isnt wrong because it is a fashion mistake. It's wrong because it involves killing.
Didn’t you start out saying that you thought fur was ugly and that’s why those people were sick? Flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop!

I like the part where the livestock and poultry are fedthe carcasses.
lets fuck up the food chain some more
FUCK! My words were proved wrong by facts! Regroup, think … but using mink as food is not natural! It causes diseases!

My beliefs are generally based upon facts
Such as fur coats are ugly?

Other points of interest …

Which is your choice. I respect your choice to eat what you like. But dont pretend that is a humane food or that it is natural or healthy.
You respect his choice, but you also want to make sure he knows it’s bad. I respect you, but don’t pretend you’re not fat and ugly. It just doesn’t work that way dear.

I wont eat in McDonalds for a number of reasons and used that as an example of a time when I have told people I dont eat meat.

I dont eat meat

And there you have it.
I shut up now.
I am not a vegetarian by the way
Cue the RNC, and a 1, and a 2, and a you know what to do!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Wow, someone just got goth served!

[Sean]

Originally posted by Nieninque


Newsflash: McDonalds has salads too. In fact, most fast food restaurants do have salads now.

Newsflash: Muckdonalds is shit.


Isn't this the exact same type of behavior this thread was about?

Someone: Want to goto McDondald's
You: I don't eat meat.
Someone: Oh well you know McD's has salads too you might want to try one.
You: McDonalds is shit.

It really isn't that much different than

You: Want some salad?
Someone: No thanks I don't like salad.
You: Oh well I like salads because I'm a vegetarian.
Someone: MMMMM I LOVE STEAK.

PS. Thanks for making meat eaters look good.

[Bobmuhthol]

http://cheesepie.net/scripts/loadimage.php?get=/images/oops.jpg

:clap: Keller.

She'll probably come-back with some pseudo-intellect though, to further make me bang my head against the wall.

-Stan

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

Keller just FUCKING PWNED this whole thread.

- Arkans

[Keller]

I disagree, what I did was just restate the obvious. Bob's post made the thread. That cracked me up.

[Nieninque]

Keller did no such fucking thing.

I did not contradict myself at all. In no place did this happen.



Originally posted by Keller
In the beginning there was ...

Fur coats are ugly. I personally would throw the paint on the wearer rather than the coat. People who wear real fur are sick
Are the coats ugly? Or are the people sick? Or are the people sick for wearing ugly coats?

All of the above.
The coats are ugly because they are made from the skin of animals. The people are sick for wearing coats made with the skin of animals. Just because at some point I said another reason why I think people shouldnt wear fur coats, doesnt mean I contradicted myself.



Animals killed just [so] some prick with more money than sense wants to wear a coat with their skins on is just sick.
Oh, I am starting to get it. The people who wear the coats are not themselves sick, just the idea of wearing coats is sick. Must be because the coats are ugly, right?

No. More like because they had something killed just so they could emulate the skin of that animal by wearing a coat made fro aforementioned animal's skin.



Some things just shouldnt be sold
Because they are ugly and help people to make sick decisions, right?

Because it involves killing.




In terms of fur coats, the animals they come from just arent used for food...therefore the products or by-product of fur-farms, cannot be linked to the meat industry.

Well, you change the rationale, but this seems like a good point if it’s true.

When was the last time you ate mink, or seal, or lynx or sable?



there is evidence that they used a whole load more of it that is used of mink in the fur coat industry
Not in this post there wasn’t!

for the same reason that the coat they are wearing was made beginning with the clubbing of a seal (for instance). While I wasnt saying that people should actually be clubbed, they do need some sense inserted into their obviously empty heads.
You forgot, they were baby seals, and they also needed some sense knocked into them for wanting to become such ugly coats that made people sick, or just make sick decisions, which should be illegal.

And this is evidence of me changing my mind about why fur coats shouldnt be made, how?


of course not.
Whether or not the farms are illegal in the country they are made in isnt the point.
The fact that it is unnecessary, is.
Ok, so it’s not because you disagree because we only use the fur and not the rest of the mink, it’s because you think we have better ways to stay warm?

It would be both. If the mink was a food source and was cared for humanely and utilised to its full extent, I would have no problem with it. But it isnt. And there are other materials that can be used instead of furs. Just because at various points during this argument I have stated one of these points without the other, it doesnt mean I no longer believe the other.

My objections to fur farming are:

It is unnecessary killing - we dont use the meat from the animal (arguments that the carcasses are fed to sheep and cows are not evidence that the animal is used to it's best - moreover, there are obvious reasons why we shouldnt be feeding dead animals to herbivorous animals) the only reason those animals are killed is for their skins.

It is unnecessary killing because we have plenty of other alternatives to fur. We dont need animal skins now (although leather and other by-products from the meat industry are excepted from this) in order to provide the roles they did in years past.


And it isnt wrong because it is a fashion mistake. It's wrong because it involves killing.
Didn’t you start out saying that you thought fur was ugly and that’s why those people were sick? Flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop!

No flip flop involved.

It's ugly because it is a by product of killing. People are sick because they will wear something that was taken from an animal killed solely for their coat.


I like the part where the livestock and poultry are fedthe carcasses.
lets fuck up the food chain some more
FUCK! My words were proved wrong by facts! Regroup, think … but using mink as food is not natural! It causes diseases!


How were my words proved wrong? Feeding meat to animals that naturally feed on plants is fucking up the food chain.

Did you hear about the BSE crisis? During that enquiry, it was found that sheep and cows had been fed ground up carcases of other animals. When was the last time you saw a man-eating cow? When was the last time you saw a pack of sheep hunting down their pray? They dont do it. They are herbivors and feeding them meat has been shown to have been one of the causes of BSE (scrapies in sheep transferring to cows and making BSE which in turn transferred to people and caused CJD).

Oh I get it...if I start an debate by saying something, I am not allowed to add anything else ever in case I am seen to be "flip-flopping".

At no point have I contradicted myself or changed my view or my stated view. Therefore at no point have I flip-flopped.



My beliefs are generally based upon facts
Such as fur coats are ugly?


Please dont take statements made to bob as being part of this discussion.

I thoroughly enjoyed debating with CT and Arkans and the others who contributed by way of sharing their views. Bob was just trolling.

Other points of interest …

Which is your choice. I respect your choice to eat what you like. But dont pretend that is a humane food or that it is natural or healthy.
You respect his choice, but you also want to make sure he knows it’s bad.

Taken out of context. That statement was based upon the arguments that there is nothing wrong with the meat industry and eating meat.



I respect you, but don’t pretend you’re not fat and ugly. It just doesn’t work that way dear.

I wont eat in McDonalds for a number of reasons and used that as an example of a time when I have told people I dont eat meat.

I dont eat meat

And there you have it.
I shut up now.
I am not a vegetarian by the way
Cue the RNC, and a 1, and a 2, and a you know what to do!

No flip-flop there either.
I am not a vegetarian.
I dont eat meat.
I eat fish.
Therefore I cannot and do not describe myself as a vegetarian.

[Edited on 24-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
I disagree, what I did was just restate the obvious. Bob's post made the thread. That cracked me up.

You didnt restate anything.
You took quotes out of context, made some kind of half baked argument that I had changed my mind or view about any of it and called that some kind of rebuttal.

Wrong!

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
:clap: Keller.

She'll probably come-back with some pseudo-intellect though, to further make me bang my head against the wall.

-Stan

[Edited on 9-23-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

Which makes a change from pumping your head full of chemicals.
Banging your head against the wall explains a lot though...

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Tijay

Originally posted by Nieninque


Newsflash: McDonalds has salads too. In fact, most fast food restaurants do have salads now.

Newsflash: Muckdonalds is shit.


Isn't this the exact same type of behavior this thread was about?

Someone: Want to goto McDondald's
You: I don't eat meat.
Someone: Oh well you know McD's has salads too you might want to try one.
You: McDonalds is shit.

It really isn't that much different than

You: Want some salad?
Someone: No thanks I don't like salad.
You: Oh well I like salads because I'm a vegetarian.
Someone: MMMMM I LOVE STEAK.

PS. Thanks for making meat eaters look good.

If that's what I say to people when asked if I want to go to Muckdonalds, then I would wholly agree with you TJ.
But it isnt.
That was said to someone after about 150-odd posts in this thread, which is talking specifically about meat-eaters and vegetarians. Slightly different context.

I believe McDonalds is shit. I dont eat there....salads or anything else. I choose to spend my money where I am happy with the company whose wages I am paying.

http://www.mcspotlight.org/

I dont buy Nestle products either.

[Keller]

Argument One: Fur is ugly

That was not substantive enough, so we went to...

Argument Two: All of the animal product is not used

A good point, I agree with you. Then the diagram of how the animal product is posted. I have no idea if that was a joke, or real -- but you never refuted it, you just changed your argument to ...

Argument Three: Feeding the animal by-product from making fur is wrong because it leads to disease.

Another good point, but you ignored the fact that your previously unsupported argument was shot down and you did nothing to revive it, you just moved on. Then, to wrap it all up ....

Argument Four: Fur isn't bad because it's ugly, it's bad because it is killing.

This is SO a direct contradiction of your VERY first post in this thread.


Look, I would never be caught dead in a fur coat. First I think killing animals for fur when we have things like goretex is retarded and morally wrong. Second it's way too expensive to be delicate, I would ruin it. However, I would never tell someone else how to spend their money or how not to spend their money as long as it does not directly effect me. I would also try not to look like a dumb bitch twice in the same thread. Next time try to make a consistant argument, or at least pick up the shambles of the broken arguments you leave behind.

:clap: Keller. Double Nieninque pwning whammy, nice, nice :D

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
Argument One: Fur is ugly

Fur is beautiful on the animal it was born on. It is ugly on people.


That was not substantive enough, so we went to...

Argument Two: All of the animal product is not used


An argument that can be used (as in the case of leather) to justify the use of it.



A good point, I agree with you. Then the diagram of how the animal product is posted. I have no idea if that was a joke, or real -- but you never refuted it, you just changed your argument to ...

Argument Three: Feeding the animal by-product from making fur is wrong because it leads to disease.

It was refuted by my saying, actually inventing a reason for the rest of the carcass and saying "yes we use it to feed to herbivorous animals" is not an argument that shows that the whole animal is being used. Sorry that was a little subtle for you.



Another good point, but you ignored the fact that your previously unsupported argument was shot down and you did nothing to revive it, you just moved on. Then, to wrap it all up ....

Argument Four: Fur isn't bad because it's ugly, it's bad because it is killing.

This is SO a direct contradiction of your VERY first post in this thread.


Again, probably a bit subtle for you, but I am not going to condemn someone's clothing style because I dont like it. I will condemn it if it is based upon an industry whose basis for making money is killing. To me, clothing that is the result of the killing of animals where there is no other need to kill those animals, is just nasty. I find fur coats ugly because of the fact that an animal has been killed so the rich bitch can wear it. There are other reasons why I am against fur coats and fur farms, and at various points may explain one or more of those points. It doesnt mean that the other reasons are invalid or forgotten or no longer believed.


Look, I would never be caught dead in a fur coat. First I think killing animals for fur when we have things like goretex is retarded and morally wrong. Second it's way too expensive to be delicate, I would ruin it. However, I would never tell someone else how to spend their money or how not to spend their money as long as it does not directly effect me.

Well I wouldnt necessarily go up to someone I didnt know and say "Hey Lady, maybe you should have bought something else" but I will join campaigns to end fur farming. I will tell people if asked, what my views are, and I will happily stand outside shops that sell furs and make my point. I wont ever be the kind of person who doesnt ever say anything because it doesnt directly affect me...Pastor Niemuller (sp?) had a saying about that I believe.
[quote]

[Edited on 24-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
:clap: Keller. Double Nieninque pwning whammy, nice, nice :D

Stanley = Arse

:blush:

[Keller]

All I am saying is that when you make incomplete and inconsistent arguments it makes you look dumb. I don't care what you meant when you posted it, because you didn't post what you meant. You posted a bunch of fumbled arguments that jumped from point to point without much justificiation or evidence and someone called you on it. I agreed with them. You told me to show you, so I did, using your own words. Now please, let's end this because it is retarded.

[Nieninque]

I dont agree that they were incomplete, fumbled or inconsistent.
I agree that they weren't supported by references and have already posted that. That doesnt mean that they were figments of my imagination nor that there is no basis in fact.

[CrystalTears]

I guess my aggravation in this whole thing was that it was stated the fur farms are cruel and unnecessary to the animals that were used and that they were being discarded after the fur was extracted.

Then it was proven that the meat is given to nourish other animals, and that many fur farms are endorsed and monitored to ensure that the animals are treated as humanely as possible. They are fed, bred, cared for and nurtured.

So this is basically about a belief that making furs is a wasted effort. That's fine, I'm all for someone believing in that. However bundling it with information that isn't true is what was bothering me. It's also not a belief that should be instilled on other individuals who don't agree.

I hate people who throw the paint on furs. You want to make a stand, make it with the manufacturers of the furs, not the consumers. We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires. Why people can't leave well enough alone and allow people to live their life of their choosing is beyond me. Dislike the concept all you want, but trashing someone's valuable property to make some sort of point is just selfish. All you did was piss off the person who spent their money on something they really wanted. The fur companies still got their money. You accomplished nothing.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I guess my aggravation in this whole thing was that it was stated the fur farms are cruel and unnecessary to the animals that were used and that they were being discarded after the fur was extracted.

Then it was proven that the meat is given to nourish other animals, and that many fur farms are endorsed and monitored to ensure that the animals are treated as humanely as possible. They are fed, bred, cared for and nurtured.

Again though, feeding carcasses that neednt be carcasses to animals that shouldnt eat carcasses isnt a useful use of those animals.

Cows dont eat meat. Neither do sheep. Therefore using dead mink to feed cows is not good.


So this is basically about a belief that making furs is a wasted effort. That's fine, I'm all for someone believing in that. However bundling it with information that isn't true is what was bothering me. It's also not a belief that should be instilled on other individuals who don't agree.

I hate people who throw the paint on furs. You want to make a stand, make it with the manufacturers of the furs, not the consumers.

While I wouldnt go so far as to throw paint on someone's coat, I do believe that consumers have a responsibility which is why I dont buy from McDonalds, Nestle, Boots, Smithkline Beecham, Glaxo . I use my money to make a stand against bad companies. Some people buy things not knowing what their money is paying for (i.e. Church of England investing in GEC Avionics who sold hawk aircraft to Indonesia so they could murder people in East Timor. Killing people in the name of god!). If they are informed about it, many will do something about it - many wont. Telling people that they have a dead animal on their back instead of a luscious [insert name of fur] coat is fair game. Consumers are not innocent victims, especially when it comes to an industry based upon killing for profit.

We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires.

People are entitled to all of those. It becomes other people's business when they (on occasion) do something about it.
Why people can't leave well enough alone and allow people to live their life of their choosing is beyond me. Dislike the concept all you want, but trashing someone's valuable property to make some sort of point is just selfish. All you did was piss off the person who spent their money on something they really wanted. The fur companies still got their money. You accomplished nothing. They may think twice about buying fur again.

(and I would also like to reiterate that I personally would not engage in the paint-throwing, but non-violent direct action is something that I would do).

[Caiylania]

What I don't understand is why people get so riled about someone not wanting animals to suffer?

I eat meat, I have leather products. Fur farms that treat these animals humanely and let them live happy lives till they are put down without pain to not get me upset.

Why must people attack those who just want animals to not have to suffer? Does it HURT you that people want to help them? Then why argue against it?

Animals (non human ones) do aid our lives in life and death. From pets that bring comfort to ones that provide food. Why call them useless (they provide for us) or treat them cruelly or with disrespect?

Whatever all the arguments are, I don't think people should stop eating meat, or using animal by-products. I just wish people would give those animals some respect and care a little on how they are treated in life.

I don't agree that all fur farms are evil, or that eating meat is bad. The farmers who treat their minks/foxes/etc..... with care and quality treatment are doing the best they can. It is the ones who keep animals in ittybitty cages and give them no chance at life I have a problem with.

So why sit there and say, they serve us, who gives a shit how they are treated? Does it hurt anyone that people want to let these animals live quality lives?

All these posts making it sound like, just because we eat/use them means they don't matter. That makes me sad :/

Humane=Human. Shesh.

[CrystalTears]

I guess you're just not getting me.


I use my money to make a stand against bad companies. Some people buy things not knowing what their money is paying for (i.e. Church of England investing in GEC Avionics who sold hawk aircraft to Indonesia so they could murder people in East Timor. Killing people in the name of god!). If they are informed about it, many will do something about it - many wont. Telling people that they have a dead animal on their back instead of a luscious [insert name of fur] coat is fair game. Consumers are not innocent victims, especially when it comes to an industry based upon killing for profit.

My point is to educate them, not insult them. You can't make someone see your point by ruining their property. Violent attacks such as that won't solve anything. YOU boycotting companies that go against your beliefs is fine. It's the part of making other consumers do as you say. You honestly think that people who buy fur coats don't know it came from an animal, or did I read that wrong? You really feel that consumers are that stupid and so they need to be punished by ruining the coat? I suppose I just understand that train of thought.



We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires.
People are entitled to all of those. It becomes other people's business when they (on occasion) do something about it.

I have no idea what this means. From where I'm standing that makes zero sense so you'll have to explain this one to me.

By the way, me wearing a fur coat because I love fur coats does absolutely nothing to you except make you feel bad for the animals. Insulting me because of my choice in clothing is really fucked up, especially when I didn't ask for your opinion on the matter.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
My point is to educate them, not insult them. You can't make someone see your point by ruining their property.

sure you can. Ruin a £2000 coat by throwing paint on it and they are not likely to wear another one in a hurry.


Violent attacks such as that won't solve anything. YOU boycotting companies that go against your beliefs is fine. It's the part of making other consumers do as you say. You honestly think that people who buy fur coats don't know it came from an animal, or did I read that wrong? You really feel that consumers are that stupid and so they need to be punished by ruining the coat? I suppose I just understand that train of thought.


Consumers that think it is ok to wear fur are that stupid. Like I said, I wouldnt assault/throw paint on them, but I can understand why people would and would, myself, take part in the targetting of maufacturers, sellers etc involved in the production and selling of such crap clothing.

By the way, me wearing a fur coat because I love fur coats does absolutely nothing to you except make you feel bad for the animals. Insulting me because of my choice in clothing is really fucked up, especially when I didn't ask for your opinion on the matter.

It makes me feel sad for the animals. It makes me feel sick for the people. I dont care what you wear, until something has to die just so you can wear a pretty coat.
That's just fucked up.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
My point is to educate them, not insult them. You can't make someone see your point by ruining their property.

sure you can. Ruin a £2000 coat by throwing paint on it and they are not likely to wear another one in a hurry.


Ruin my $2000 coat, and you will do nothing more than piss me off. I will then sue you for the cost of the coat and the clothes, and extra for emotional trauma. I'll then have you prosecuted for battery and destruction of personal property. Then I will then take any money I win from the lawsuit and buy a brand new fur coat, thus killing more animals.

If you wish to get someone to see your point, it is entirely ridiculous to piss them off. You're entitled to your opinion. You are not entitled to forcing it down my throat.

Jorddyn

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTears
My point is to educate them, not insult them. You can't make someone see your point by ruining their property.

sure you can. Ruin a £2000 coat by throwing paint on it and they are not likely to wear another one in a hurry.


That has to be the most retarded thing I've heard today (and my office is pretty retarded).

If you throw paint on something I just paid $3000 for - I'm going to beat your ass. And technically (though I'm sure it's for the courts to decide), I'll have the right to, because you assaulted me. Then I'll sue you for the cost of my coat and most likely some other emotional damages.

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by Wezas
If you throw paint on something I just paid $3000 for - I'm going to beat your ass. And technically (though I'm sure it's for the courts to decide), I'll have the right to, because you assaulted me. Then I'll sue you for the cost of my coat and most likely some other emotional damages.

Apparently, I should change my screenname to Wezas2.

Jorddyn

[Tsa`ah]

Let's not forget that most people who wear 2 grand coats probably own more than one or are dying to buy a new one.

Do the mink and fox populations a favor, stay the fuck home.

[DeV]

Fur on people: usually not attractive and no longer a status symbol. However, people are entitled to their opinion and their right to buy it regardless of what we think, feel or believe is moral or immoral. It's their right. This debate is now borderlining on ridiculousness.

[Parkbandit]

Throw paint on anything I own and ruin it and I will beat the everloving snot out of you. Period.

You do not have a right to ruin other people's property. Go picket the fur dealer. Go picket the fur farms. Make a website about how cruel it is. THOSE are your rights.

You throw paint or anything else on me and I'll take my right of self defense and put you into the hospital.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Fur on people: usually not attractive and no longer a status symbol. However, people are entitled to their opinion and their right to buy it regardless of what we think, feel or believe is moral or immoral. It's their right. This debate is now borderlining on ridiculousness.

Dont read it then.

I admit however that my last remark about throwing the paint on coats was silly. I was being flippant and would probably retract it if asked :whistle:

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Throw paint on anything I own and ruin it and I will beat the everloving snot out of you. Period.

You do not have a right to ruin other people's property. Go picket the fur dealer. Go picket the fur farms. Make a website about how cruel it is. THOSE are your rights.

You throw paint or anything else on me and I'll take my right of self defense and put you into the hospital.

You're hard, where's yer handbag?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Throw paint on anything I own and ruin it and I will beat the everloving snot out of you. Period.

You do not have a right to ruin other people's property. Go picket the fur dealer. Go picket the fur farms. Make a website about how cruel it is. THOSE are your rights.

You throw paint or anything else on me and I'll take my right of self defense and put you into the hospital.

You're hard, where's yer handbag?

First of all, it's a European Carry all. :smilegrin: Second of all, I don't own a fur of any sort.. but I DO have the right to own one.

On the other hand, you do NOT have the right to damage other people's belongings, as it is against the law. Assault me though and I have all the right in the world to kick you in a new mud hole. (Thanks go out to Anticor who uses that phrase alot)