Meat-eaters.

[Tsa`ah]

::coughs:: stomp ::coughs::

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
First of all, it's a European Carry all. :smilegrin: Second of all, I don't own a fur of any sort.. but I DO have the right to own one.

On the other hand, you do NOT have the right to damage other people's belongings, as it is against the law. Assault me though and I have all the right in the world to kick you in a new mud hole. (Thanks go out to Anticor who uses that phrase alot)

And firstly, I have already said that I wouldnt throw paint, partly because I would feel pretty stupid if the person said "Erm...it's fake fur" and also because it goes beyond what I would feel happy doing.

Secondly...dress it up how you like, its a handbag.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Fur on people: usually not attractive and no longer a status symbol. However, people are entitled to their opinion and their right to buy it regardless of what we think, feel or believe is moral or immoral. It's their right. This debate is now borderlining on ridiculousness.

Dont read it then.

I admit however that my last remark about throwing the paint on coats was silly. I was being flippant and would probably retract it if asked :whistle: I really shouldn't as you are taking a unbelievable... :whipit:
Stay strong.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
I've been curious ever since the "animal debate" thread. It seemed like every meat eater felt compelled to describe how much they loved "bloody cow, tender chicken, etc." It's one thing to define yourself by saying, "I eat meat." But I just don't understand the need to go any further. Is it just to rub it in the faces of the vegetarians that were posting? Because that's all it comes off as.

Whenever I say I'm a vegetarian, I don't start rattling off my favorite foods, "Mmm, I love seitan and spinach, and mushrooms and eggplant. It's sooooo good, you guys are missing out!"



Spinach sucks.

I really don't care if people picket or protest fur. I don't care if they make anti-fur websites, but I REALLY fucking care if they destroy MY property. Hell shall be unleashed if I get something like that done to me. First with a good ass-kicking and then with court actions and finished off with a new fur coat.

- Arkans

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Consumers that think it is ok to wear fur are that stupid.

Heh, yeah well I guess we've come to an impasse because you think people who wear fur coats are stupid, and I think people who ban meat for the same reasons is stupid too, so there! :P

[Warriorbird]

The sad thing is that being a vegetarian really isn't that much more enviromentally friendly. The devastation to animal habitat and livelihood caused by worldwide soybean and rice production is intense.

Then, you add on a bunch of environmentalist flying around in jets (which, despite any claims about cows are the real cause of global warming/ozone depletion) and talking on the Internet (fueled by coal and nuclear power) and it gets even more laughable.

Now, the health reasons thing? That I can half buy... but at the same time I know a lot of really malnourished vegetarians and all the successful ones I know pop a lot of vitamins and really hit sources of protein hard... some of which are really starch heavy.

[Edited on 9-24-2004 by Warriorbird]

[Wezas]

Paint on Fur would be like someone environmental ozone nut keying my diesel car. Rediculous. If you don't want to wear fur - fine, don't wear fur. If you want to tell people not to wear fur (without stalking/overly-harassing them) - fine, talk away. That is where it stops.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
If the mink was a food source and was cared for humanely and utilised to its full extent, I would have no problem with it. But it isnt.Someone needs another look at the flowchart, or watch the Lion King.
I will condemn it if it is based upon an industry whose basis for making money is killing.You should have a chat with some cigarette companies.
Originally posted by CrystalTears
We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires. Yes we are. It's called society.
Originally posted by Caiylania
Does it HURT you that people want to help them? It hurts my soul.
Originally posted by Nieninque
Ruin a £2000 coat by throwing paint on it and they are not likely to wear another one in a hurry.You're awfully unsympathetic for someone who was just assaulted.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears

Originally posted by Nieninque
Consumers that think it is ok to wear fur are that stupid.

Heh, yeah well I guess we've come to an impasse because you think people who wear fur coats are stupid, and I think people who ban meat for the same reasons is stupid too, so there! :P
Heh...but I'm not asking for a ban on meat. I just want the animals that are going to be eaten to be looked after nicely while they are alive and killed quickly and as painlessly as possible when it's their time to be cooked.
I want cruel practices stopped (i.e. veal and pate foi gras (sp?) ) and aside from that, I want people to be able to make their own choices about whether they eat meat or not.

[Warriorbird]

Sort've like how the animals that get wiped out by dams to provide water... or killed by the god awful smog in London are treated nicely?

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
::coughs:: stomp ::coughs::

I KNEW kick didn't sound tough enough.

Thanks!

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Sort've like how the animals that get wiped out by dams to provide water... or killed by the god awful smog in London are treated nicely?

No...so they dont have to live like this any more

[Warriorbird]

And somehow dead is better than mistreated? Many of the products that vegetarians utilize are formed by manufacturing processes that do horrible things to animals or destroy habitat. I could show off a ton of scare photos too... doesn't make it any different. Or do you really need to see little otters coated in oil spills?

[Nieninque]

Or this

http://www.eggcruelty.com/videos/SickInjuredDaylay.wmv

[Warriorbird]

You use plastics, right?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
And somehow dead is better than mistreated? Many of the products that vegetarians utilize are formed by manufacturing processes that do horrible things to animals or destroy habitat. I could show off a ton of scare photos too... doesn't make it any different. Or do you really need to see little otters coated in oil spills?

So because animals are also being harmed in other ways by other stuff we do, we should forget all about the cruelty they are exposed to in the "food" industry because at least they are better off dead?

:rolleyes:

[CrystalTears]

NO! Not the otters! I love otters! *whines*

By the way, I guess I am admittingly a sick person because I remember the day I found out how veal was made. I paused, thought oh that sucks, and had veal parmesan a few days later.

[Warriorbird]

No. You just shouldn't make those claims while doing things that forward practices that are just as bad or worse. That makes you a hypocrite. Me, I'm not jumping on any bandwagon or insulting anyone's choices.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
No. You just shouldn't make those claims while doing things that forward practices that are just as bad or worse. That makes you a hypocrite. Me, I'm not jumping on any bandwagon or insulting anyone's choices.

Neither am I.
I am saying that people should be able to choose whether or not they eat meat. They shouldnt be able to choose whether or not animals are tortured in the process. It just shouldnt happen.

[Keller]

Where are you from? I am from Indiana and I have actually seen milk farms, egg farms, beef farms, chicken farms, and pork farms. I have never seen a fur farm, but I have also seen an osterich farm. Have you seen those scenes anywhere but on some animal rights website? A lot of farms have poor harvesting/processing practices, but not all of them. If you really want to do something about it, spend an extra $2/lb for your meatless fish and don't buy it farm raised. If you want to make an even bigger difference convince your friends who eat fishless meat to spend more to buy open range meat. Use the power of your wallet because in the end it's the ONLY way of protest that works effectively. You'll never stop the meat or fur industry. The only thing that will stop either is a lack of demand. If your beef is with animal rights, research who you buy from and only buy from people whose practices you can find to be ethical. Not every farm looks like that. Stop being a sensationalist.

[CrystalTears]

Yes you ARE insulting people's choices. You just called people who wear furs stupid. In this country, calling someone stupid is insulting, especially because you don't agree with something they enjoy.

Which brings me to reply to this:




Originally posted by CrystalTears
We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires.Yes we are. It's called society.

Last I heard, America was a free country. My neighbor or a stranger off the street can tell me that I suck for wearing a fur coat, and I have the right to tell him to fuck off in response. We can't make demands on individuals to not be able to like certain things that are legal just because we have personal feelings against it.

[Nieninque]

Where the fuck am I being a sensationalist?
Where have I said this is what happens in all places?
Stop being a complete arsehole and putting words into my mouth.
What I have said is that all the places that this happens (are there are too many) need to sort it out.
Organic and cruelty free farms do ok. If I buy meat thats what I buy. If I buy fish I buy wild fish where I can and not farmed fish.
And I dont buy the "just buy what you think is ok and keep your mouth shut" approach. If no-one says anything, nothing changes.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTearsWe can't make demands on individuals to not be able to like certain things that are legal just because we have personal feelings against it.

Of course you can. Thats how you get things changed

[CrystalTears]

By the way, I clicked on that link and saw those pictures you posted. A coworker friend of mine, who is also a sportsman/avid fisherman, saw it and said "who the hell treats animals like that?!" and I explained to him the debate and he said, "I don't treat my animals like that, and I know plenty of legit food companies that don't."

Battle the people that do it specifically, not the industry as a whole, since not everyone is guilty of treating the animals as you described. I believe those to be the minority.

[Xcalibur]

Men are supposed to eat meat, our teeth is a prime exemple of why it's in our nature to do so.

And meat TASTE something, unlike those pseudo-stuff.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by CrystalTearsWe can't make demands on individuals to not be able to like certain things that are legal just because we have personal feelings against it.

Of course you can. Thats how you get things changed

Sorry, no. DEMANDING me that I do something because you say so does not change anything, except maybe my feelings towards you for speaking to me in such a fashion.

[Nieninque]

Demanding change from companies/ governments works

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Men are supposed to eat meat, our teeth is a prime exemple of why it's in our nature to do so.

And meat TASTE something, unlike those pseudo-stuff.

See your English has come along, X

[CrystalTears]

RIGHT! THAT WAS MY POINT! Which goes back to me saying taking actions against the consumers doesn't work, which you kept saying does, but then I guess retracted.

[Caiylania]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Caiylania
Does it HURT you that people want to help them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It hurts my soul.

:?: People wanting to help stop animal suffering HURTS YOUR SOUL?? Please, DO explain.

[Keller]

There are better ways to convince people than showing a chicken that looks like a half-risen phoenix or a pig getting beat like Emmitt Till. Why didn't you pick the picture of the cow standing in the farm pasture just chilling? Becase you only wanted to show the negative perspective (which I agree there is!). That = Sensational.

I agree with your principles, nearly half my friends are veggies. But they can defend (and it's sad they have to defend it, I agree with the openning post of this thread) their choice without reactionary techniques like "OMG, Mink carcass causes disease!" Or "OMG, look at this poor chicken!"

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
RIGHT! THAT WAS MY POINT! Which goes back to me saying taking actions against the consumers doesn't work, which you kept saying does, but then I guess retracted.

Sometimes it does.
I have stood outside McDonalds giving out leaflets about how shit they are and people have stood and read the leaflets and gone off elsewhere. That is with NO harassment or sales push (for want of a better word) that's just them making their mind up having read a leaflet about how much McDonalds suck.

Demanding that they dont go in wouldnt work, but discussion about it does.

And even if they just went off for that day but had a McDonalds the following day, at least they are thinking about it.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
There are better ways to convince people than showing a chicken that looks like a half-risen phoenix or a pig getting beat like Emmitt Till. Why didn't you pick the picture of the cow standing in the farm pasture just chilling? Becase you only wanted to show the negative perspective (which I agree there is!). That = Sensational.

I agree with your principles, nearly half my friends are veggies. But they can defend (and it's sad they have to defend it, I agree with the openning post of this thread) their choice without reactionary techniques like "OMG, Mink carcass causes disease!" Or "OMG, look at this poor chicken!"

This is a discussion about meat eating.
It's very different from your average conversation about food and therefore, most of what I have said here wouldnt end up in a conversation I was having with someone generally.

I also didnt say that mink carcasses cause disease. What I said was it is fucked up feeding aminal remains to herbivorous animals. I stand by that. There is nothing sensationalist about that, and that was in response to CT or SHM saying that the whole animal is utilised. Well no it isnt. Cows and sheep dont naturally eat meat. In fact it's fucking unnatural. You want to call that sensationalist, please do, but I would call it pretty fucking obvious.

[Edited on 24-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Xcalibur]

If all was to return to the way it was, in 1120, about 50% of the whole planet would die.

Lot of people require lot of food, and it's the way it is.

Am I glad to eat my meat every day? Yes

Do I care about the cow that eat super-food to get fat faster? No

Do I want to pay 500% the normal price to get pure 100% meat? No.

We have some chicken in our grocery stores that is like that, natural but ultra-expensive.

Booh that.

[Keller]

Your argument amounted to don't buy fur because not all of the carcass is used and what is fed to animals causes disease. Then you showed some raunchy pictures of sick looking animals. I have been to plenty of farms and never ONCE seen an animal that looked anything like that.

Even if we did club every baby pig to death I contend that they have it better now as they aren't shot with an arrow before being clubbed. Look at is as premarket-tenderization methods.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
Your argument amounted to don't buy fur because not all of the carcass is used and what is fed to animals causes disease.

Still wrong.
I said, it is unnatural feeding meat to animals that dont eat meat. I pointed to the BSE epidemic where thousands of cows were infected with BSE because farmers decided it would be a good idea to save money on feeding them, by getting them to eat their best mate flossie.
I didnt say getting veggie animals to eat dead animals causes disease, but it is fucked up and it can do just that.


Then you showed some raunchy pictures of sick looking animals. I have been to plenty of farms and never ONCE seen an animal that looked anything like that.

Oh, well in that case I guess it never happens.


Even if we did club every baby pig to death I contend that they have it better now as they aren't shot with an arrow before being clubbed. Look at is as premarket-tenderization methods.

Great argument.
:rolleyes:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Nieninque
[quote]
Pictures-

No...so they dont have to live like this any more

Christ.

Posting those pictures as 'evidence' is like me posting a car crash and saying every driver drives drunk... or posting a picture of a cigarette burn on a child's arm claiming that all children in America are abused.

I can also post a picture of a dog that looks as though he has been starved close to death.. will that mean all dogs in America are abused?

[Edited on 9-24-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Sean]

How come when people try and redirect your thought process you keep refering back to this thread is about meat eatting? Really it's not. You made it about that through an inital redirection. The thread is about the way people react when you tell them something about yourself. In this instance it's about how people react when TOK reveals that he's a vegetarian and his questioning of why people respond like they do. Whether or not you like fur coats or eatting turnips has nothing to do with anything.

That being said. Applying your subjective opinions to something like fur coats or eatting chicken and labeling it "bad." isn't going to win over anyone, well atleast not anyone who can form their own opinion. Also your insistnace of well thats how changes come about isn't really true. Yes being vocal is a big part of inciting change but you can't just talk to the talk. You have yet to show how eatting meat is bad in any form other than I don't like eatting meat, eatting meat is bad, you are mean to animals. Yea well .. so what? Do you live in a house? Is that house on land? Is that land that you can no longer plant? Do you live in the minimum conditions to allow for maximum land usage ie: a tiny ass house? If you answered yets(and even if you answered no I could make this work with any living arrangement) Then OMFG you are a guady prick with too much money taking up vast resources that could be better used to harvest crops to sustain life! OMG YOU ARE BAD. There I'm applying the label of bad to you so it must be true right?

[Keller]

:soapbox:

:deadhorse:

Did you not read my other post where I said that I KNOW there are farms where there are instances like the ones you showed?

Also, if it was a good cheap form of nutrition, why not feed ground mink pellets to cattle? We feed unnatural formula to babies everyday. Why not? Because it causes diseases. I agree with you.

I do buy organic beef, in fact I buy the whole damn cow at once. I get to pick it out of the field AND watch it be slaughtered. I do this because I want to support an industry that I feel is well worth supporting. I don't buy fur because I think it is wasteful enterprise and my columbia goretex is much more effective. I decide what to spend my money on and what not to. Don't take that choice away.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
:soapbox:

:deadhorse:

Did you not read my other post where I said that I KNOW there are farms where there are instances like the ones you showed?

Also, if it was a good cheap form of nutrition, why not feed ground mink pellets to cattle? We feed unnatural formula to babies everyday. Why not? Because it causes diseases. I agree with you.

I do buy organic beef, in fact I buy the whole damn cow at once. I get to pick it out of the field AND watch it be slaughtered. I do this because I want to support an industry that I feel is well worth supporting. I don't buy fur because I think it is wasteful enterprise and my columbia goretex is much more effective. I decide what to spend my money on and what not to. Don't take that choice away.

If it was up to me, that's what everyone would do. I agree with choice up to a point. Torture should never be a choice.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I can also post a picture of a dog that looks as though he has been starved close to death.. will that mean all dogs in America are abused?

[Edited on 9-24-2004 by Parkbandit]

It would mean that some are.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I can also post a picture of a dog that looks as though he has been starved close to death.. will that mean all dogs in America are abused?



It would mean that some are.

And some are delicious. Or so I hear from a Friend (http://forum.gsplayers.com/member.php?action=viewpro&member=The%20Korean)

[Toxicvixen]

:lol: Bad Wezas!

[Bobmuhthol]

http://www.bideaweefarm.com/_borders/Card%20-%20Happy%20Llama.jpg

Card the Happy Llama says, "Your argument sucks."

[CrystalTears]

I just thought the order of these threads was funny.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v412/Jemah/skins.bmp

Damned attachments. :D

[Edited on 9/24/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires.
We can't make demands on individuals to not be able to like certain things that are legal I think you'll agree those two statements are a bit different.
Originally posted by Caiylania
People wanting to help stop animal suffering HURTS YOUR SOUL?? Please, DO explain.I can barely walk down the street without seeing/hearing human suffering. And here we have 12 pages (12!) about animal suffering. And the chief proponent of the "stop hurting animals" side is a person who wouldn't think twice about sentencing her brethren to death. Put it all together, and it makes my soul go :(
Originally posted by Nieninque
I said, it is unnatural feeding meat to animals that dont eat meat.There you go with "unnatural" again.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Originally posted by Nieninque
I said, it is unnatural feeding meat to animals that dont eat meat.There you go with "unnatural" again.

Yeah. Totally in context. It is natural for a herbivorous animal to eat vegetation. It is completely unnatural for a herbivorous animal to be eating meat.
I was using the term in the sense of "against nature".
It fits :)

[Caiylania]

>>>>quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Caiylania
People wanting to help stop animal suffering HURTS YOUR SOUL?? Please, DO explain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can barely walk down the street without seeing/hearing human suffering. And here we have 12 pages (12!) about animal suffering. And the chief proponent of the "stop hurting animals" side is a person who wouldn't think twice about sentencing her brethren to death. Put it all together, and it makes my soul go <<<<

So just because humans are suffering, and many charities and agencies are trying to relieve that, we should ignore the millions of animals also suffering?

I am not saying for humans to be put AFTER animals. And ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 12 whole pages on one message board out of millions.

It is not wrong for people to care about animals, plenty of people are doing their best to take care of fellow humans. The animals have no voice, so some people choose to be a voice for them. If your soul cries because those people wish to relieve suffering of those creatures who can not protect themselves, then I find that even sadder then those who honestly just don't give a damn.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Caiylania
So just because humans are suffering, and many charities and agencies are trying to relieve that, we should ignore the millions of animals also suffering?Charities and agencies aren't Nieninque. People are worth more than animals. Are we in agreement on those two points?
It is not wrong for people to care about animals, plenty of people are doing their best to take care of fellow humans.Of course, the "let someone else take care of it" strategy. That never fails.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
People wanting to help stop animal suffering HURTS YOUR SOUL?? Please, DO explain.I can barely walk down the street without seeing/hearing human suffering. And here we have 12 pages (12!) about animal suffering. And the chief proponent of the "stop hurting animals" side is a person who wouldn't think twice about sentencing her brethren to death. Put it all together, and it makes my soul go :([/quote]

Show me where I have advocated for the death penalty? or admit that you are now lying to score points.

[Caiylania]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Caiylania
So just because humans are suffering, and many charities and agencies are trying to relieve that, we should ignore the millions of animals also suffering?Charities and agencies aren't Nieninque. People are worth more than animals. Are we in agreement on those two points?
It is not wrong for people to care about animals, plenty of people are doing their best to take care of fellow humans.Of course, the "let someone else take care of it" strategy. That never fails.

Ugh. You are impossible.

"let someone else take care of it" strategy?? My whole point is, people are trying to help animals because they can't do it for themselves. That doesn't mean those same people aren't also donating to human charities. It just means they also care about the fact that many animals are living in misery. And I doubt God would want that either.

I don't care about your debate with Nieninque. My point is that, just because you and others feel animals are LESS than humans, in truth or not, does not mean they should have to be in pain and misery.

Part of being human, part of being the higher species, is our ability to have empathy for others. Human or not.

So if some people want to try and help animals, why are you so friggin upset by it? Just because they aren't human means they don't deserve it? Where is your humanity?

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by CrystalTears
We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires.
We can't make demands on individuals to not be able to like certain things that are legal I think you'll agree those two statements are a bit different.

Considering that the first line was taken out of context and was encased around comments based on telling the consumers how to behave and trashing their property, I don't feel that I was contradicting myself.

[Nieninque]

:lol:

Someone said Latrinsorm was the expert of taking statements out of context....well, yup

[Caiylania]

No joke.

I want some steak

[Caiylania]

I had some yesterday, it was really good.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
Show me where I have advocated for the death penalty? or admit that you are now lying to score points. I'll choose: neither. http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=9546

p.s: I don't do lying.
Originally posted by Caiylania
So if some people want to try and help animals, why are you so friggin upset by it?People starve to death. That's why I'm upset that people can give two shits about animal rights, especially when the majority of farms are participating in no such heinous acts. I'm not saying that animal torture isn't wrong, I'm saying it's a hell of a lot less wrong than a lot of other things (war, starvation, and so on).
Originally posted by CrystalTears
We are no one.. no one.. to pass judgement on others for their likes, wants, and desires. Why people can't leave well enough alone and allow people to live their life of their choosing is beyond me. Dislike the concept all you want, but trashing someone's valuable property to make some sort of point is just selfish. To which I responded, that's what society is, meaning: The whole comes down on the individual if they don't like what the individual is doing. Then you said
We can't make demands on individuals to not be able to like certain things that are legal just because we have personal feelings against it.I felt like you were backpedaling by throwing that "legal" bit in there, and brought it to your attention.

It was TOK (I think he said king, not expert, but not sure on that), and I'm surprised that people seriously agree. How out of context can I possibly be when we're all talking about the same topic?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
[quote]Originally posted by Nieninque
Show me where I have advocated for the death penalty? or admit that you are now lying to score points. I'll choose: neither. http://forum.gsplayers.com/viewthread.php?tid=9546

p.s: I don't do lying.

You do stupid pretty well.
I had just been attacked.
I was letting off steam
If you think that statement equals me advocating for the death penalty I have credited you with more intelligence than you actually possess.
For that I offer my most sincere apologies

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
You do stupid pretty well.That would have a lot more bite to it had you not just botched the quote.
I had just been attacked.Right, I forgot murder is ok if you're just "letting off steam". I haven't said one thing about the death penalty, so I don't know why you keep harping on that. If you go three days into the thread, you'll find yourself adamant in a non-empathetic stance, although you've downgraded your suggested violence to a "bloody good kicking".

[Back]

Meat-eaters are some brutes or what?

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Right, I forgot murder is ok if you're just "letting off steam". I haven't said one thing about the death penalty, so I don't know why you keep harping on that.


And the chief proponent of the "stop hurting animals" side is a person who wouldn't think twice about sentencing her brethren to death.

That sounds like a statement about the death penalty.


If you go three days into the thread, you'll find yourself adamant in a non-empathetic stance, although you've downgraded your suggested violence to a "bloody good kicking".

Yeah, and? You want me to turn the other cheek to a grown man and a grown woman that attacked me and my 13 year old sister on the grounds that they are my "brethren"? But then you think it's ok to ignore the needless torture of animals who, lets face it, have done nothing to warrant the treatment they get other than be born into a form that we like eating.

Edited to add: I havent said stop hurting them. I havent even said stop eating them. What I have said is stop torturing them when they are alive.

[Edited on 25-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Back]

I haven’t read all thirteen pages so bear with me if this has already been said. Perhaps the first poster was wondering, like I sometimes wonder, at what seems like outright hostility towards vegetarians and/or animal rights activists.

Here are some people so compassionate, it extends towards what we might call lower life forms. You have to be a real asshat to give these people shit. Seriously. What is the problem here? What sort of mentality is it to react in an almost violent way towards someone who advocates peaceful coexistence of all living things? Thats a secular kind of evil, to advocate death of any kind as death sort of gets in the way of the most basic principal and the god given right of life. To live and reproduce.

We have the most highly developed brains on this planet. We know we don’t need to kill to survive. Everything the body needs to replenish itself can be found in vegetation. Compare the active lifestyles of species who eat meat with those that are vegetarian. Meat eaters are the predators and by their very nature evoke a reign of violence and terror among the weaker species. You don’t see cows tipping anyone, or chipmunks hijacking airplanes to fly into buildings.

You’d think that we would use the gift of reason to its fullest extent and further ascend from the base pool of life. But we haven’t yet. I sure haven’t, though I am aware.

“For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love.”
~ Pythagoras, mathematician from http://choices.cs.uiuc.edu/~f-kon/vegetarian.html

[Artha]

I have it on good authority that eating meat is bad for you.

"At the time when I ate meat, I used to sweat a lot. I used to drink four pots of beer and six bottles of water during a meeting. … When I became a vegetarian, a mouthful of water was enough."
- Adolf Hitler. January 22, 1942. Section 117, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

"When I later gave up eating meat, I immediately began to perspire much less, and within a fortnight to perspire hardly at all. My thirst, too, decreased considerably, and an occasional sip of water was all I required. Vegetarian diet, therefore, has some obvious advantages."
- Adolf Hitler. July 8, 1942. Section 256, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

[Miss X]

Hahahaha. So I could save money by not buying meat, beer or deodorant! Bargain!!

[xtc]

Albert Schweitzer & Einstein were vegetarians.

Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.

-Albert Einstein

[xtc]

A few other quotes on this topic

To become vegetarian is to step into the stream which leads to nirvana.
-Buddha

One is dearest to God who has no enemies among the living beings, who is nonviolent to all creatures.
-Bhagavad Gita

He that slayeth an ox is as he that killeth a human.
-Isaiah

A human can be healthy without killing animals for food. Therefore if he eats meat he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite.
-Leo Tolstoy

He is a heavy eater of beef. Me thinks it doth harm to his wit.
-Shakespeare in "Twelfth Night

Since visiting the abatoirs of S. France I have stopped eating meat.
-Vincent Van Gogh

Of what use are all your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of the roasted carcasses of rams and of the fat of fattened beasts. I take no pleasure in the blood of calves, lambs and goats . When you spread out your hands, I close My eyes to you; despite however much you pray, I will not listen. Your hands are full of blood! Wash yourselves clean! Put away your misdeeds from before My eyes and stop doing evil.
-Isaiah 1:11, 1:15-16

[Artha]

Awesome!!!

"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
- Adolf Hitler. November 11, 1941. Section 66, HITLER'S TABLE TALK

[xtc]

Some people are still going to want to eat meat.. we do agree though that vegetarianism is a healthier diet.

-David Stroud of the American Meat Institute

[Bobmuhthol]

Latrinsorm can't stop winning.

[Nieninque]

You spelt whining wrong

[xtc]

Based on my experience in Los Angeles, my advice to the public is not to eat meat.

-Gregorio Natavidad-meat inspector

[HarmNone]

Heh. I've heard it said that somebody always plays the "Hitler card". I must admit, I was surprised to see it in this thread! :lol:

[Artha]

This picture makes me giggle.

http://www.geocities.com/hitlerwasavegetarian/hitler1.GIF

[HarmNone]

Hee! Me, too. I guess even the worst of fiends has a soft spot for something, eh? :)

[xtc]

Godwin's Law /prov./ [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.

[Caiylania]

w00t. Let's all follow Hitler! Errrr........ nix that.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
You want me to turn the other cheek to a grown man and a grown woman that attacked me and my 13 year old sister on the grounds that they are my "brethren"? If you knew what turning the other cheek actually meant, I would suggest you do it. It sounds like you favor the literal interpretation, though.
That sounds like a statement about the death penalty. Yes it does. But it wasn't meant as such.
Originally posted by Backlash
We know we don’t need to kill to survive. Everything the body needs to replenish itself can be found in vegetation.I don't get how people will say "we don't have to kill stuff to eat" and follow it up with controlled genocide. Plants are just as alive as any animal. "If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no reason."

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Nieninque
You want me to turn the other cheek to a grown man and a grown woman that attacked me and my 13 year old sister on the grounds that they are my "brethren"? If you knew what turning the other cheek actually meant, I would suggest you do it. It sounds like you favor the literal interpretation, though.
That sounds like a statement about the death penalty. Yes it does. But it wasn't meant as such.You're full of shit.
If I say something it is to be taken literally.
If you say something and it is taken literally, that doesnt count because you didnt mean it.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Plants are just as alive as any animal.

Plants differ from animals in significant ways. For one, they lack the necessary physiology to register a painful response; no nervous system or brain. Any being that can feel pain can also has been equipped through evolution with the ability to remove oneself from the cause of threat or pain. Though plants have needs that must be met in order to thrive, they do not have complex social relationships and instictive needs for comfort, which, when denied, cause prolonged and identifiable suffering.

Besides, if you're so concerned about these plants being killed, you may want to consider the fact that the animal that died for that Whopper ate far more plants than any vegetarian ever will.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<you may want to consider the fact that the animal that died for that Whopper ate far more plants than any vegetarian ever will.>>

And the animals therefore deserve to be killed and eaten themselves. If I'm eaten by something better than me, I certainly won't be complaining.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
And the animals therefore deserve to be killed and eaten themselves. If I'm eaten by something better than me, I certainly won't be complaining.

Bob, I'm not complaining on the animal's behalf that they're being eaten. By all means, continue your diet. What I find troubling is the manner they're treated before they are killed at eaten. If an animal capable of eating you tortured you for a few years of your life before they finished the job, then I have a feeling you would be complaining.

[Bobmuhthol]

Not all animals that are eaten are tortured.

[Nieninque]

too many are

[Bobmuhthol]

100% of domestic violence cases are within relationships. Better ban marriage.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
100% of domestic violence cases are within relationships. Better ban marriage.

1) Relationship doesnt equal marriage. Banning marriage doesnt solve Domestic Violence.

2) The problem is the violence not the relationship. Lets ban the violence.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<1) Relationship doesnt equal marriage. Banning marriage doesnt solve Domestic Violence.>>

It prevents it. If you're trying to stop all animal abuse, continue with your discussion, but you'd be absolutely stupid. If you're not trying to stop all animal abuse (and it's VERY apparent that you're not, as you can only complain about people who eat meat abuse animals as if vegetarians are exempt), then shut the fuck up, because my analogy is very valid.

<<2) The problem is the violence not the relationship. Lets ban the violence.>>

The problem with animal abuse is not the people who eat animals. Let's ban animal abuse.

Both instances have already been executed. You lose.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<1) Relationship doesnt equal marriage. Banning marriage doesnt solve Domestic Violence.>>

It prevents it. If you're trying to stop all animal abuse, continue with your discussion, but you'd be absolutely stupid. If you're not trying to stop all animal abuse (and it's VERY apparent that you're not, as you can only complain about people who eat meat abuse animals as if vegetarians are exempt), then shut the fuck up, because my analogy is very valid.


Actually, your analogy is fucking stupid.


<<2) The problem is the violence not the relationship. Lets ban the violence.>>

The problem with animal abuse is not the people who eat animals. Let's ban animal abuse.


Erm...yeah.
That's pretty much what I have been saying.
Ban animal abuse.
Welcome aboard.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Both instances have already been executed. You lose.>>

Someone can't read an entire post.

DUR DUR DUR.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Both instances have already been executed. You lose.>>

Someone can't read an entire post.

DUR DUR DUR.
It doesnt matter how many times you post it, it's still wrong.
Domestic violence still exists.
Animal cruelty still exists.
In the case of farm animals, animal cruelty is still pretty much unlegislated.

You lose (to coin a phrase)

[Bobmuhthol]

You're right, domestic violence and animal cruelty does exist, and that was my point. You can't stop it, even with both of them being ILLEGAL ALREADY.

Fucking idiot alert.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
You're right, domestic violence and animal cruelty does exist, and that was my point. You can't stop it, even with both of them being ILLEGAL ALREADY.

Fucking idiot alert.

We have been alerted to your presence for a while Bob.

Animal cruelty in the case of farm animals is not illegal in most ways.

Even if it was illegal, guess what? You can stop it. You can stop it in many ways. One of the strongest would be by people asking questions of the people selling it - such as, what are the conditions that these animals live in/are killed in?

You can stop it by stronger implementation of the laws.

You can stop it by making sure that if people want to market something, they are more than able to do that in a way that ensures that the wellbeing of the animals up to and including the point they are killed is cruelty free.

To sit back and say "hey, it's illegal there is nothing more we need to do" is just plain stupid.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Plants differ from animals in significant ways.If you want to trust science, sure. (I'm not trying to be overly flippant, I just don't think inductive reasoning is the best thing to rely on when lives could be on the line) I'm not saying it's wrong to kill plants, but I'm also not saying it's wrong to kill animals. If a small minority of farmers are sadistic lunatics, I wouldn't worry about it too much, because as I've said many times before, there are bigger tofu cubes to fry.
Originally posted by Nieninque
If I say something it is to be taken literally.
If you say something and it is taken literally, that doesnt count because you didnt mean it. It's actually something Jesus said. I think you'd agree that 2000 years of cultural evolution has to be taken into account, whereas a week or two of the same usually doesn't. If you're talking about my comment about you sentencing your brethren to death, I'd like to hear how your statement could be interpreted any differently. My statement was directed towards a general person's desire to end human life, not towards a judiciary official's, which is why it's not a death penalty thing. Yours (Fucking druggies. They should shoot the fucking lot of them) doesn't seem to have any other meaning. Before you seemed to be saying that the context was you "blowing off steam" after a traumatic incident. I would say that such an event would magnify your deepest desires/feelings, which is why I took it seriously.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm It's actually something Jesus said. I think you'd agree that 2000 years of cultural evolution has to be taken into account, whereas a week or two of the same usually doesn't. If you're talking about my comment about you sentencing your brethren [/quote]

They are not my brethren and I dont recognise your Jesus.[/quote]to death, I'd like to hear how your statement could be interpreted any differently. My statement was directed towards a general person's desire to end human life, not towards a judiciary official's, which is why it's not a death penalty thing. Yours (Fucking druggies. They should shoot the fucking lot of them) doesn't seem to have any other meaning. Before you seemed to be saying that the context was you "blowing off steam" after a traumatic incident. I would say that such an event would magnify your deepest desires/feelings, which is why I took it seriously. [/quote]
Youre not a psychologist are you?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
It's actually something Jesus said.

If you want to bring Jesus into it (and you do seem to consider him important to you), I'm pretty sure he wouldn't condone 'not worrying about it too much' or considering animals suffering a 'smaller wrong'. From everything said about him, he'd be quite horrified by it and would want people to care about their needless suffering and work to stop it just as much as they do so about the suffering of humans.

Raven


So

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Nieninque
They are not my brethrenYou can go outside and say gravity doesn't affect you too, but it doesn't make it so. :)
and I dont recognise your Jesus.You should probably stop throwing around his catch phrases, then.
Youre not a psychologist are you? No. I am a person who has also been through trauma. As I have only been one person so far, I don't have anything else to extrapolate from.

edit:


Originally posted by Ravenstorm
If you want to bring Jesus into it I did my best not to, and I'm pretty sure I succeeded (I might have made a reference to Jesus 14 pages ago, it's hard to remember). I just don't like people invoking his words without having the slightest idea what they mean, especially when done so in a derogatory fashion.

As for your assessment of Jesus' reaction, I don't know. You could be right, but there are a couple stories where Jesus isn't too concerned with things that he could be.

[Edited on 9-25-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Shari]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Fuuuuck. Again, it's a two-way street.

I can't.. Fucking stand veggie-heads or anti-lamb eaters who make my meal absolutely revolting by rubbing their "I think I'm better than you because I don't eat 'X'" in my face.

Fuck off (Not meant to anyone in specific except to those who ruin my rack of lamb.)

Next time someone does that Stan, eat a piece of meat in front of them, chew it up, and then stick your tongue out at them with the chewed piece of meat on it. Odds are you'll have a quiet meal because they'll either be gape-mouthed in shock, or off in the bathroom vomiting.


-She who cannot STAND when people criticize what she eats.


As for the rubbing-in-the-face thing. I didn't respond in the Animal thread. But I don't think I've ever busted anyone's chops (no pun intended) about them eating only veggies, mostly because my sister is a vegetarian. But if it flips and they go all out on me, I'm usually doing the "see-food" for them. Yeah, I'm disgusting.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
If a small minority of farmers are sadistic lunatics, I wouldn't worry about it too much, because as I've said many times before, there are bigger tofu cubes to fry.

A small minority? If only that were the case.

"The vast majority of meat, milk, and eggs in America comes from factory farms, which hardly resembles bucolic family farms many Americans envision their food comes from. Instead, they are part of ‘agribusiness,’ where animals are mass produced for the slaughter house. And in the agribusiness, financial profitability takes priority over treating animals humanely." -- U.S. Congressman Jim Moran (VA), 5/20/03

Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A60798-2001Apr9&notFound=true) which covers the beef industry alone.

And Latrinsorm, since you've admitted you're more concerned about human welfare, this part of the article might interest you:


Industry trade groups acknowledge that improperly stunned animals contribute to worker injuries in an industry that already has the nation's highest rate of job-related injuries and illnesses -- about 27 percent a year.

I've never once been so militant or delusional that I expect people to stop eating meat. I just think it is a shame that so many people would rather turn their heads from this problem in the meat industry, and continue to support their inhumane practices with their dollars rather than finding a more humane, local farm to buy their meat from. Things aren't going to change until they became aware of what is going on.

[Back]

Latrinsorm’s posts are typical of why I distrust the clergy. It’s someone saying, “I know better than you.”

[Edited on 9-26-2004 by Backlash]

[Back]

Beer is vegetarian, LOL. So is weed. LOLXOR!~~~~~

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Backlash
Beer is vegetarian, LOL. So is weed. LOLXOR!~~~~~

Are you saying you are vegetarian?!

[Back]

Originally posted by Maimara

Originally posted by Backlash
Beer is vegetarian, LOL. So is weed. LOLXOR!~~~~~

Are you saying you are vegetarian?!

I think you know me a little better than t?åt.

[Betheny]

Yeah, I know. Your liquid diet may be vegetarian, BUT MY CHICKEN CHIMI BEGS TO DIFFER.

MMM SO GOOD BEFORE BED.

/flees!

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

This thread is still alive?

Unlike the cow that was slain for my steak dinner tonight. Mmmmm.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
A small minority? If only that were the case.Ok, so you've got a politician and a newspaper, and I've got the word of an anonymous poster on the Internet and my relatives who are farmers. I guess we could flip a coin.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Backlash
Beer is vegetarian, LOL. So is weed. LOLXOR!~~~~~

Lots of beers actually arent vegetarian. I think they use fish roe or something in the fermenting part of making it. (I know very little about making beer - I know a little more about drinking it).

Not to go off on a tangent here, but I hear they put animal fats in a lot of things that people would normally consider vegetarian. Yeah.

[Keller]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Backlash
Beer is vegetarian, LOL. So is weed. LOLXOR!~~~~~

Lots of beers actually arent vegetarian. I think they use fish roe or something in the fermenting part of making it. (I know very little about making beer - I know a little more about drinking it).

I forgot to ask. How the fuck do you figure fish is not meat? I understand people who don't eat beef, chicken, pork, or mink, for health reasons but will still eat fish. However, I am at a loss when it comes to the cruelty veggies who eat fish and say it is not meat. I KNOW you don't consider yourself a veggie, but you've also said you didn't eat meat, how does that work? There are fish farms and fish egg farms, etc. Do you just think of fish as less of an animal than a cow or a pig? I am not trolling, I really want a legit answer.

[Back]

Originally posted by Nieninque

Originally posted by Backlash
Beer is vegetarian, LOL. So is weed. LOLXOR!~~~~~

Lots of beers actually arent vegetarian. I think they use fish roe or something in the fermenting part of making it. (I know very little about making beer - I know a little more about drinking it).

I have never heard of this and I have studied beer for a while now. Animal products are not neccessary in the fermentation process. I think the only animal product you can ferment is blood.

The only animal product I know of to get high from is venom/poison. Even then, you only have to either lick the beast, or shoot its farmed and extracted poison. Both examples were discovered by Australians.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Keller
I forgot to ask. How the fuck do you figure fish is not meat?

Because of the way of describing it. You buy meat from the meat counter or the butcher - none of that I eat. You buy fish from the fish counter or the fish monger - that I do eat. I know fish have meat on them, but it's fish. There is meat on some vegetables (i.e. aubergines). It's just an easier way of describing it, for me.


I understand people who don't eat beef, chicken, pork, or mink, for health reasons but will still eat fish. However, I am at a loss when it comes to the cruelty veggies who eat fish and say it is not meat. I KNOW you don't consider yourself a veggie, but you've also said you didn't eat meat, how does that work? There are fish farms and fish egg farms, etc. Do you just think of fish as less of an animal than a cow or a pig? I am not trolling, I really want a legit answer.

In terms of the cruelty side, fish generally have a much better existence when they are alive than a lot of the animals involved in the meat industry. It doesnt make it perfect, but if you go and catch a fish, kill it and eat it, it's hard to come anywhere near the cruelty of the meat industry.

As I have said, I do not believe that there should be no eating of meat at all.

I dont like meat (from the butcher). I tried eating chicken a couple of years ago and projectile vomited two minuts after swallowing it. I just cant eat it.

People do, on occasion, call me vegetarian and I will always correct them. I will also correct friends who call themselves vegetarian, if they then say "but I eat fish" or (in one case) "but I eat fish and chicken".

Edited to add: I think I corrected Harmnone in a differerent thread, too :duck:

[Edited on 26-9-04 by Nieninque]

[Madmox]

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Soul vegetarian food is damn good.

That seems somehow fundamentally wrong...

-Mox

[DeV]

Originally posted by Madmox

Originally posted by DarkelfVold
Soul vegetarian food is damn good.

That seems somehow fundamentally wrong...

-Mox I thought so also, until I tried some. The only thing stopping me from eating it on a daily basis is the fact thats its way out on the south side and I live on the north side, and it's a tad too expensive for an everyday habit. I wouldn't give up meat just to have it, but its a nice change and worth the treat.

They also sell something called Ginger beer in their restaurant. I can do without that, though everything else I've tried so far has been quite fufilling