Marines Setting Easier Standards for Women

[ClydeR]

The Marine Corps has delayed the requirement for female Marines to do three pullups because most women have so far been unable to pass the test.

More... (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/28/marine-corps-delays-pullup-requirement-for-women/)

If women cannot perform combat crucial tasks like pullups, then we need to rethink having women Marines.

[Gelston]

Female Marines are fine. For jobs such as infantry, artillery, armored... Basically any combat arms, the standards should not be lax. As we discussed tons in another thread though, if you can only do the minimum on your fitness test, you will be considered a piece of shit.

[Taernath]

I'm unclear on what's going on. Is this requirement something that only applies to women trying to get into combat arms positions, or something that's supposed to apply Corps wide when it's implemented?

[Ardwen]

Honestly not knowing all the details its hard to comment, but when Clyde volunteers and passes the test then he can comment or complain about it

[Tgo01]

I'm unclear on what's going on. Is this requirement something that only applies to women trying to get into combat arms positions, or something that's supposed to apply Corps wide when it's implemented?

From what I understand it was always a requirement for certain positions, like people on the front lines.

However since women were never allowed in these types of positions it was never an issue. Since women are being allowed into these types of positions soon the military was testing out the requirements with women and found that like half couldn't complete the requirements while something like 1% of men couldn't pass it.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

You mean ClydeR is a real person? I thought he was PC's news bot.

[Gelston]

There are two different PFTs in the Marine Corps. A male and a female one. The male version requires pull ups and a better run time. The female version requires a flexed arm hang instead of pull ups. For the women that recently went to infantry training they required them to complete a male PFT.

[Taernath]

However since women were never allowed in these types of positions it was never an issue. Since women are being allowed into these types of positions soon the military was testing out the requirements with women and found that like half couldn't complete the requirements while something like 1% of men couldn't pass it.

Sounds like it's working as intended then.

[Gelston]

That isn't correct that the fitness tests were different based on jobs. An infantryman takes the same fitness test as an admin dude.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm more confused by what lifting yourself out of a mud wall entails.

[Jarvan]

I still find it surprising that the Women's Groups were not up in arms that women have different physical fitness requirements then men in the military. What ever happened to the sexes being equal?

Guess it's one of those equal... except when it benefits us to not be equal.. things.

[Buckwheet]

Everytime I see these threads I always like to post things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywsXZsjTnww

Yeah I know. Its not the Marines, its not combat. They just need to recruit the right women now.

Oh she is 5 foot 3 and weighs ~110-120 depending on what she is training for.

[Taernath]

I'm more confused by what lifting yourself out of a mud wall entails.

They mean climbing over head-height mud walls, which are common in rural villages in Afghanistan.

[Gelston]

Everytime I see these threads I always like to post things like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywsXZsjTnww

Yeah I know. Its not the Marines, its not combat. They just need to recruit the right women now.

Oh she is 5 foot 3 and weighs ~110-120 depending on what she is training for.

If she can operate in 100+ degree weather while carrying 80 pounds of gear and still be effective I have no issue with her being in the infantry.

[Buckwheet]

If she can operate in 100+ degree weather while carrying 80 pounds of gear and still be effective I have no issue with her being in the infantry.

This thread is about just passing the men's physical. You gotta go one step at a time. Its not like the Marines just sat down in one day and came to the standard they have right now.

[Gelston]

The physical is and has always been a joke. Infantry school is a joke. I talk about operational where people live or die based on you doing your job.

[Buckwheet]

The physical is and has always been a joke. Infantry school is a joke. I talk about operational where people live or die based on you doing your job.

Thats great you have such a hard line opinion and there will be a time and place for it. But if the physical is a "joke" and women can't pass it right now. You can't just leap to the end game. You have to get women in who can pass the physical then you can start putting them into more specific positions like the one you are speaking of. Its why its called "training". I don't think many Marines just show up to boot camp and are capable of being warriors the second their head is shaved. I assume that most of them have to learn how to do it.

I would have qualified for the Marines in the 1940s. I don't today because of a specific heart issue. The Marines and other armed forces obviously had to find that out somehow in order to disqualify people.

[Gelston]

The 40 was a different time. The Draft existed. You can't compare the all volunteer force of now to then. And no, it is the perfect time and place to discuss this.

WHY do we NEED to get women in?

[Shari]

I'm sorry, but this is BS. If you want to be in combat you should be able to pass the same standards as the men. And this is coming from someone with a vagina.

[Buckwheet]

The 40 was a different time. The Draft existed. You can't compare the all volunteer force of now to then. And no, it is the perfect time and place to discuss this.

WHY do we NEED to get women in?

My point is that I wanted to volunteer, and I couldn't. My grandfather came back from China as a Marine Corp drill instructor. So you can imagine what I got to do all the time as a kid when he was in charge of watching us or at the family cabin. Yes, marine corps drills. So based on his career I was doing whatever a 1940s-end of korea right before Vietnam physical training workout with out any issue. It was sort of a surprise to many people when I took the exam to be disqualified. My grandfather was tested and he had the same heart condition since its genetic. Yet he was a Marine and did quite a bit of fighting for the 6th Division.

So while I understand what you are saying in terms of "If you can do your job I want you." the truth is that I could probably have done my job with you without any problem, until there was a problem. And that problem would have been really god damn bad for both of us, according to the Marines.

You have to get qualified applicants and you learn along side them as to what the pitfalls are.

As to your question of, Why? Because congress said so, and by your own admission if they are qualified they should be allowed in. The problem is that there isn't 100 years of recruitment in what to look for for front line female infantry soldiers and I don't think there has been 100 years of history for the Marines to have their daughters follow in their footsteps like men. You can't just expect that tradition to vaporize overnight, nor should it.

[cwolff]

The scary thing is that we are talking about very basic requirements. Most people do WAY better than the minimum.

The Marine Corps is running as many woman volunteers as they can get through the infantry schools for the next year in order to gather as much data as possible. If they have to allow a flx armed hang to do it then that's ok. It's not a lowering of the standards per se, it's lowering the standards in training in order to be able to test women in other areas. They have until 1/1/16 to either integrate or ask for an exemption so they are doing a good job with this phase of it.

I do understand that combat deployments and command of combat units helps with one's career. That's one thing they're trying to correct by allowing woman into infantry roles. There could be an unintentional consequence from this though. One is that women who go for an infantry career may have a rather short career and won't be in service long enough to get promoted to the upper ranks.

This article has a little different take on the whole issue though. http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/04/marines-corps-struggles-to-keep-up-with-massive-influx-of-female-volunteers-for-infantry/

[Gelston]

Thanks Cwolf. You are okay for an OSU fan sometimes.

[cwolff]

Thanks Cwolf. You are okay for an OSU fan sometimes.

Oh shit! Were you able to read that? I did try to use small words that even an SEC fan could sound out in his head.

BTW, did you see 30 for 30 about Maurice Clarett. It made me feel guilty for hating him so much. LOL

[Taernath]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44448854.jpg

[Gelston]

I didnt. I record them all though.

[cwolff]

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44448854.jpg

I just want to see TG do his face palm icon.

[Taernath]

I'm contractually required to post Frymeme.jpg because there are always people who repost Duffleblog articles without reading or understanding them.

[Tgo01]

Oh, sorry.


This article has a little different take on the whole issue though. http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/04/marines-corps-struggles-to-keep-up-with-massive-influx-of-female-volunteers-for-infantry/

/facepalm

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Who didn't see this coming? Everyone who spent any time in one of the service branches or mos actually doing the fighting. Standards have dropped over the year for everyone as more and more idiots, like Mothers of America, keep retarding things with this whole concept of hazing and fairness. But here, out of the mouth of babes...

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/video/marine-officer-women-shouldnt-be-infantry

[cwolff]

Who didn't see this coming? Everyone who spent any time in one of the service branches or mos actually doing the fighting. Standards have dropped over the year for everyone as more and more idiots, like Mothers of America, keep retarding things with this whole concept of hazing and fairness. But here, out of the mouth of babes...

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/video/marine-officer-women-shouldnt-be-infantry

I like how she speaks in terms of cost vs. benefit and what happened to her body through her last deployment. She was a college hockey player too so she's pretty tough.

[Tgo01]

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/video/marine-officer-women-shouldnt-be-infantry

Man that comment section makes me want to cry. Especially how so many "woman" don't know the difference between "women" and "woman."

[Thondalar]

Man, that Duffleblog stuff is hilarious.

"The course has attracted even more high-profile female celebrities, including new Second Lieutenants Arianna Huffington, Jane Fonda, and Al Franken."

lolz.

[Taernath]

Man that comment section makes me want to cry. Especially how so many "woman" don't know the difference between "women" and "woman."

Did you get your mandatory circumcision yet? You better do it before penis inspection formation on Monday.

[Tgo01]

Did you get your mandatory circumcision yet? You better do it before penis inspection formation on Monday.

I think you might be misunderstanding the term "bromance", Taernath...

[Taernath]

There is nothing bromantic about penis inspection formation. You would know that if you went to Sears school and seen women slapped around.

[Tgo01]

There is nothing bromantic about penis inspection formation. You would know that if you went to Sears school and seen women slapped around.

No way would I go to Sears school. You think I want an infection of my vagina by being thrown in a runoff of pee and poo? :(

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

There is nothing bromantic about penis inspection formation. You would know that if you went to Sears school and seen women slapped around.

SERE school. At Sears school, they only slap you if you can't identify the brand of washing machine you're supposed to be selling.

[Taernath]

SERE school. At Sears school, they only slap you if you can't identify the brand of washing machine you're supposed to be selling.

You didn't read the comments section!

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

[QUOTE=Taernath;1621725]You didn't read the comments section![/]

I'm afraid I did not. Is it going to endear me to my fellow man? Or make me hate people more?

[Jace Solo]

As a combat medic, dealing with female ailments in garrison is pain enough. Add the field element and incapacitation for UTI's, etc... that's a logistical nightmare.

Please, lets add another 20 lbs of gear I have to carry, on top of the already 150-180+ in order for me to adequately attend to them. It's fun enough for me to carry more gear to take care of the idiots I already have.

Also, the last thing I need, when getting my infantry guys to drag me bodies, instead of doing what I tell them too, is for them to decide they have to save a female first even if it's not the proper triage decision.

[Latrinsorm]

They mean climbing over head-height mud walls, which are common in rural villages in Afghanistan.I figured, but as you say the preposition would be "over". I did read a story once where a woman was assaulted and buried alive (in mud) but managed to pull herself (literally) out of it, but she cheated by having her foot on a root. Should we trust FoxNews if its reports coincide with a fictional story I read one time? I'm not a big city newspaperier, but I think not.
WHY do we NEED to get women in?Do we have too many soldiers, not enough, or just right? If "not enough", doesn't it make sense to consider as many applicants as possible? Surely it costs more to process so many more applicants, but it's not like defense funding is ever going to get cut.

[Gelston]

Do we have too many soldiers, not enough, or just right? If "not enough", doesn't it make sense to consider as many applicants as possible? Surely it costs more to process so many more applicants, but it's not like defense funding is ever going to get cut.

Too many, actually. Infantry has also always been the MOST requested MOS... With people sitting around in holding platoons for months.

[Latrinsorm]

I take it you are not familiar with Channing Tatum's documentary "Stop-Loss"?

[Jeril]

I take it you are not familiar with Channing Tatum's documentary "Stop-Loss"?

You are also aware they discontinued that practice? Of course then they just took up recalling people, no idea where they stand with it right this moment though.

[Gelston]

Stop loss and recalls were done when I got out. They brought back boat spaces and all that crap for reenlisting, even in the Infantry. Every branch of the Military is shrinking in numbers.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

Defense Spending cuts are fine. I agree with them. But the problem is, the cuts are always to the personnel and not the idiotic programs and technology that is either not viable or unneeded. Do we really still need 2500 M1 Abrams made? And the F-35? A trillion dollars wasted, still works less reliably than a Yugo with no doors. The problem is that too many politicians and higher rank military officials have their retirement funds in the stock of these companies.

[Taernath]

Stoploss is still policy and in people's contracts, it's just been reduced in practice because of recent criticism.

[Gelston]

It's still policy and in contracts, it's just been reduced in practice because of the recent fallout.

It still exists, it just doesn't happen anymore. The draft still exists, they just don't do it.

[Latrinsorm]

You are also aware they discontinued that practice? Of course then they just took up recalling people, no idea where they stand with it right this moment though.This is kind of a sore subject, but Mr. Tatum's lawyers have informed me that he has no desire to return my calls and that they will not hesitate to pursue legal action should I continue.

[cwolff]

I take it you are not familiar with Channing Tatum's documentary "Stop-Loss"?

While this is total pain in the ass for someone who wanted to get out and was either stop-lossed or recalled, we should keep in mind that they were still under contract. I don't know if it's the same way now or not but when I enlisted I did an 8 year contract with 6 in the active reserve and 2 inactive. Even though I was a PFC (Private Fucking Civilian) during those last two years I still had a contractual obligation.

It's kind of beside the point though. If the USMC for example, wanted to expand (and they did) during Iraq it wasn't too hard. During a war they get a lot of young men who want to fight and the recruiters I would meet out and about told me that they hit their annual goals easily and were wait listing lots of guys. I think the Army and Navy didn't have as easy a time of it. Some years were harder to recruit for than others but overall the Corps had it pretty easy. Case in point. I talked to recruiters two different times about re-enlisting but wasn't allowed to because of my age. I was 38 and 40 the two times I talked to recruiters and I did so because my old unit, 3/25, was deploying. I could have gone into the Army or National Guard with no problems though.

Right now, the armed forces are scrambling to kick people out as fast as possible. The navy is breaking contracts and the Marines are significantly lowering recruiting goals. So in today's environment the military is, according to the new troop level requirements, absolutely awash in people and they have to get creative to kick folks out.


The Corps will expand voluntary separation incentives, bring in fewer recruits and make it tougher for some noncompetitive staff sergeants to remain in uniform as it pares the service to 174,000 Marines by 2017 — 8,100 fewer than originally planned.

For the most part, ramped-up drawdown measures consist of broader incentives to encourage thousands of Marines to leave voluntarily, although several hundred are likely to be forced out.


...the Marine Corps will avoid relying on some of the harsh measures that other services have used, like the Navy’s Reduction in Force boards, which have broken thousands of contracts.

Ninja could probably tell you what's happening in the Army right now. I'm not totally sure but I think they're booting people left and right.

[Taernath]

Discipline problems, PT failures, basically anyone without stellar NCOERs are being forced out or reclassed. They're also taking a hard look at troops that have medical issues.

[Gelston]

Yep, still 8 years. Time in DEP counts towards IRR time.