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Tgo01
08-30-2013, 07:44 PM
I wanted to post this in the thread that said Democrats will believe anything if you call it a 'study' but I couldn't find it.

Ah well. Here is more proof of that: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/most-efficient-healthcare_n_3825477.html?ref=topbar)


As supporters and opponents of the Affordable Care Act debate the best way to overhaul a clearly broken healthcare system, it's perhaps helpful to put American medicine in a global perspective.

The infographic below is based on a recent Bloomberg ranking of the most efficient countries for healthcare, and highlights enormous gap between the soaring cost of treatment in the U.S. and its quality and effectiveness. To paraphrase Ricky Ricardo, the American healthcare system has a lot of 'splainin' to do.

It's remarkable how low America places in healthcare efficiency: among the 48 countries included in the Bloomberg study, the U.S. ranks 46th, outpacing just Serbia and Brazil. Once that sinks in, try this one on for size: the U.S. ranks worse than China, Algeria, and Iran.

But the sheer numbers are really what's humbling about this list: the U.S. ranks second in healthcare cost per capita ($8,608), only to be outspent by Switzerland ($9,121) -- which, for the record, boasts a top-10 healthcare system in terms of efficiency. Furthermore, the U.S. is tops in terms of healthcare cost relative to GDP, with 17.2 percent of the country's wealth spent on medical care for every American.

In other words, the world's richest country spends more of its money on healthcare while getting less than almost every other nation in return.

It's important to note that this data doesn't necessarily reflect the best healthcare in the world; it is simply a measure of overall quality as a function of cost. Bloomberg explains its methodology as such:

Each country was ranked on three criteria: life expectancy (weighted 60%), relative per capita cost of health care (30%); and absolute per capita cost of health care (10%). Countries were scored on each criterion and the scores were weighted and summed to obtain their efficiency scores. Relative cost is health cost per capita as a percentage of GDP per capita. Absolute cost is total health expenditure, which covers preventive and curative health services, family planning, nutrition activities and emergency aid. Included were countries with populations of at least five million, GDP per capita of at least $5,000 and life expectancy of at least 70 years.

So what can the U.S. learn from the many countries that get more bang for their healthcare buck? Unsurprisingly, there is no one formula for success when it comes to efficient medical care. The systems that rank highly on Bloomberg's list are as diverse as the nations to which they belong. The unifying factor seems to be tight government control over a universal system, which may take many shapes and forms -- a fact evident in the top-three most efficient healthcare systems in the world: Hong Kong, Singapore, and Japan.

Ranking third on Bloomberg's list, the Japanese system involves universal healthcare with mandatory participation funded by payroll taxes paid by both employer and employee, or income-based premiums by the self-employed. Long-term care insurance is also required for those older than 40. As Dr. John W. Traphagan notes in The Diplomat, Japan controls costs by setting flat rates for everything from medications to procedures, thus eliminating competition among insurance providers. While most of the country's hospitals are privately owned and operated, the government implements smart regulations to ensure that the system remains universal and egalitarian.

Meanwhile, Singapore's healthcare system is largely funded by individual contributions, and is often hailed by conservatives as a beacon of personal responsibility. But as conservative David Frum notes, the system is actually fueled by the invisible hand of the public sector: individuals are required to contribute a percentage of their monthly salary based on age to a personal fund to pay for treatments and hospital expenditures. In addition, the government provides a safety net to cover expenses for which these personal savings are inadequate. Private healthcare still plays a role in Singapore's system, but takes a backseat to public offerings, which boast the majority of doctors, nurses, and procedures performed.

Despite being considered by some as having the freest economy in the world, Hong Kong's universal healthcare system involves heavy government participation; its own health secretary calls public medicine the "cornerstone" of the system. Public hospitals account for 90 percent of in-patient procedures, while the numerous private options are mostly used by the wealthy.

All this government care isn't taking much of a bite out of the state's bustling economy: According to Bloomberg, Hong Kong spends just 3.8 percent of GDP on healthcare per capita, tied for the third-lowest among nations surveyed and good for the most efficient healthcare system in the world.

For the rest of the top-ten most efficient healthcare systems, check out the slideshow below:

I know! Let's focus on something we can say the US "fails" at, life expectancy, then without trying to explain why or how the US life expectancy is lower than other "Western" countries we'll just blame it on poor healthcare and give that a 60% weighting. For good measure we'll also give total money spent on health a 10% weighting, you know, because what could possibly go wrong if we compare countries with 5 million people to countries with 350 million people and use a measure like total money spent on healthcare. That's completely fair, right? To top it all off we'll also actually believe anything China has to say on the matter when it comes to their own healthcare and life expectancy figures, China has never lied to us before, right?

Back
08-30-2013, 08:10 PM
I know! Let's focus on something we can say the US "fails" at, life expectancy, then without trying to explain why or how the US life expectancy is lower than other "Western" countries we'll just blame it on poor healthcare and give that a 60% weighting. For good measure we'll also give total money spent on health a 10% weighting, you know, because what could possibly go wrong if we compare countries with 5 million people to countries with 350 million people and use a measure like total money spent on healthcare. That's completely fair, right? To top it all off we'll also actually believe anything China has to say on the matter when it comes to their own healthcare and life expectancy figures, China has never lied to us before, right?

Do you have healthcare? If so who pays for it?

Tgo01
08-30-2013, 08:13 PM
Do you have healthcare? If so who pays for it?

I'll answer this question if you can tell me what this has to do with anything?

Back
08-30-2013, 08:17 PM
I'll answer this question if you can tell me what this has to do with anything?

Obviously you are very concerned with the universal healthcare idea. Does that stem from your desire to keep things the way they are? Fear of things becoming worse?

I'm not crazy about the system as it stands.

Tgo01
08-30-2013, 08:18 PM
Obviously you are very concerned with the universal healthcare idea. Does that stem from your desire to keep things the way they are? Fear of things becoming worse?

I'm not crazy about the system as it stands.

I'm sorry you're confused, Back. This thread has to do with Democrats believing everything they read as long as someone says it's a study, not so much about healthcare in the US itself.

Back
08-30-2013, 08:21 PM
I'm sorry you're confused, Back. This thread has to do with Democrats believing everything they read as long as someone says it's a study, not so much about healthcare in the US itself.

I understand that. But the "study" you posted, taken mainly from Bloomberg, is about healthcare. You are railing on about healthcare so I am curious if you have it, if so who pays for it, and are you satisfied with it or do you think it could improve?

Whirlin
08-30-2013, 08:23 PM
Wasn't there a post recently about how a republican was excited about a Harvard study that found that guns should be more readily available to all?

I don't think it's a partisan idea that people are typically swayed more when they are told that an independent third party conducted research and results were obtained.

Tgo01
08-30-2013, 08:25 PM
Wasn't there a post recently about how a republican was excited about a Harvard study that found that guns should be more readily available to all?

I don't think it's a partisan idea that people are typically swayed more when they are told that an independent third party conducted research and results were obtained.

That's different though, that's a Republican.

tyrant-201
08-30-2013, 08:47 PM
That's different though, that's a Republican.

Everyone knows most Republicans don't respect studies. They're generally done by bleeding heart liberal professors peering down at all of us from their ivory towers.

Latrinsorm
08-30-2013, 08:48 PM
I wanted to post this in the thread that said Democrats will believe anything if you call it a 'study' but I couldn't find it.

Ah well. Here is more proof of that: (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/29/most-efficient-healthcare_n_3825477.html?ref=topbar)



I know! Let's focus on something we can say the US "fails" at, life expectancy, then without trying to explain why or how the US life expectancy is lower than other "Western" countries we'll just blame it on poor healthcare and give that a 60% weighting. For good measure we'll also give total money spent on health a 10% weighting, you know, because what could possibly go wrong if we compare countries with 5 million people to countries with 350 million people and use a measure like total money spent on healthcare. That's completely fair, right?That's not what the article says. The distinction they draw is per capita spending relative to GDP vs. per capita spending in absolute terms; both cases are per capita. Your spittle-flecked tirade should be how the Democrat surrogates in typical fashion blame everything on the rich.
To top it all off we'll also actually believe anything China has to say on the matter when it comes to their own healthcare and life expectancy figures, China has never lied to us before, right?It's well established that those Chinese sons of bitches are going down.
The unifying factor seems to be tight government control over a universal systemA universal surveillance system???

Tgo01
08-30-2013, 09:04 PM
Everyone knows most Republicans don't respect studies. They're generally done by bleeding heart liberal professors peering down at all of us from their ivory towers.

See, tyrant gets it!


That's not what the article says. The distinction they draw is per capita spending relative to GDP vs. per capita spending in absolute terms; both cases are per capita.

Hey, if you want to start a thread about how Republicans skim articles and skip some minor unimportant details before they blast the report then go ahead, but this is about Democrats believing everything they read!!111

Latrinsorm
08-30-2013, 09:07 PM
But I am a Republican and I didn't do that. The only logical conclusion is that you are a reverse reverse ClydeR!!!

tyrant-201
08-30-2013, 09:11 PM
If Latrin is a Republican, then so am I!

Tgo01
08-30-2013, 09:13 PM
But I am a Republican and I didn't do that.

Not this again.

kutter
08-31-2013, 12:24 AM
Wasn't there a post recently about how a republican was excited about a Harvard study that found that guns should be more readily available to all?

I don't think it's a partisan idea that people are typically swayed more when they are told that an independent third party conducted research and results were obtained.

Actually that study was conducted by Harvard, not really a bastion of conservative principles, hence the reason I think it was so shocking.

Paradii
08-31-2013, 01:10 AM
Actually that study was conducted by Harvard, not really a bastion of conservative principles, hence the reason I think it was so shocking.

Actually, it turned out that study wasnt a study. Wasn't is some not peer viewed essay by an under grad?

Back
08-31-2013, 01:10 AM
Not this again.

So how about your healthcare? Are you going to make me start an entire thread asking you about if you have it, if you do who pays for it, if you are satisfied or think it could be better?

Tgo01
08-31-2013, 01:14 AM
So how about your healthcare? Are you going to make me start an entire thread asking you about if you have it, if you do who pays for it, if you are satisfied or think it could be better?

Sure.

kutter
08-31-2013, 04:08 AM
Actually, it turned out that study wasnt a study. Wasn't is some not peer viewed essay by an under grad?

Not as near as I can tell, here is the study: http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

It was published by Don B. Kates, a criminologist and constitutional lawyer, and Gary Mauser, Ph.D., a Canadian criminologist and professor at Simon Fraser University, neither of them sound like an under grad to me.

Archigeek
08-31-2013, 04:59 AM
The study was done by these guys: the "Pacific Research Institute". It was not conducted by Harvard University.

I have little to say about that study, except that it was posited here as evidence that gun ownership doesn't increase the homicide rate.

I think it's pretty clear that people of all stripes tend to believe studies more than anecdotal evidence. Why wouldn't they? What is it that you would suggest that Republicans believe more? As opposed to your contention that Democrats believe anything that is called a study? Such blanket statements are pointless. You might as well claim that Republicans believe anything as long as it's on Fox news.

Candor
08-31-2013, 05:31 AM
Actually, it turned out that study wasnt a study. Wasn't is some not peer viewed essay by an under grad?

I personally think that both Democrats and Republicans only pay attention to studies when conclusions are drawn that fit their political agendas.

Yeah it's a shocker, I know...

Warriorbird
08-31-2013, 07:03 AM
I like how Republicans will attempt to dismiss Bloomberg by calling him a Democrat. That's telling right there.

Parkbandit
08-31-2013, 09:42 AM
I like how Republicans will attempt to dismiss Bloomberg by calling him a Democrat. That's telling right there.

For every Conservative ideal you can name he believes in, I can name two Liberal ones.

Care to play?

Warriorbird
08-31-2013, 09:43 AM
For every Conservative ideal you can name he believes in, I can name two Liberal ones.

Care to play?

I do love it when you drive people out of your party. Your obsession with a two direction rather than a four direction political compass makes it pointless though.

Candor
08-31-2013, 03:32 PM
I do love it when you drive people out of your party. Your obsession with a two direction rather than a four direction political compass makes it pointless though.

Four directions?

My personal compass tends to group people into one of the following: Extreme Left, Liberal, Moderate, Conservative, Extreme Right

I gave up a long time ago trying to convince anyone in the Extreme groups of anything. I do like tweaking them now and then, though :)

Parkbandit
08-31-2013, 03:33 PM
I do love it when you drive people out of your party. Your obsession with a two direction rather than a four direction political compass makes it pointless though.

He's been a Democrat for most of his adult life and only became a Republican for 6 years to get elected Mayor. Once he no longer needed that affiliation, he became an "Independent".

There are very few principles he holds that are on most Republican platforms.

crb
08-31-2013, 03:40 PM
Article at Slate, that bastion of Conservative viewpoints, pointing out show shitty thus study was:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/08/28/life_expectency_health_care.html?wpisrc=flyouts



The problem here is that the main thing you're showing is that health care services are not a particularly cost-effective way to increase life expectency. If we raised the taxes on alcohol and gasoline and then spent all the revenue on a pointless bridge in Alaska, American life expectency would go up. Not because our health care system would become more efficient, but because fewer people would die in car wrecks and murders. And as it happens, raising those taxes would be a good idea. Fewer people would die in car wrecks and murders!

Also Bloomberg is not a Democrat, nor a Republican. He is a Paternalistic Narcissist. You may not have heard of that political party before, its relatively new, but well funded.

Latrinsorm
08-31-2013, 05:19 PM
For every Conservative ideal you can name he believes in, I can name two Liberal ones.

Care to play?I like this game, but I feel like I have tuned in during the 2nd quarter. When did we establish that the Republicans are or are even intended to be Conservatives? (And the same for Democrats as Liberals.)

Tgo01
08-31-2013, 10:20 PM
I didn't want to "pollute" the smile thread with politics so I'll hijack my own thread for this.

Things that made me smile today:

Watching a bunch of Democrats on HuffingPost try to claim that California isn't really a "blue" state. One person even tried to claim California is more "purple" than anything.

Ah yes, the tears of joy streaming down my face.

cwolff
08-31-2013, 10:24 PM
I didn't want to "pollute" the smile thread with politics so I'll hijack my own thread for this.

Things that made me smile today:

Watching a bunch of Democrats on HuffingPost try to claim that California isn't really a "blue" state. One person even tried to claim California is more "purple" than anything.

Ah yes, the tears of joy streaming down my face.

HA! That's like the epicenter of blue! Even if they do elect republican governors.

Tgo01
08-31-2013, 10:27 PM
HA! That's like the epicenter of blue! Even if they do elect republican governors.

I keep trying to explain to people that governors are like an anomaly of American politics. California electing Republican governors, Massachusetts electing Mitt Romney, heck even Arkansas and Kentucky have Democratic governors at the moment.

Warriorbird
09-01-2013, 01:12 AM
I keep trying to explain to people that governors are like an anomaly of American politics. California electing Republican governors, Massachusetts electing Mitt Romney, heck even Arkansas and Kentucky have Democratic governors at the moment.

Your first problem was reading Huffington Post. It'd take some serious miracles for California or Texas to change color even slightly.

Tgo01
09-01-2013, 01:19 AM
Your first problem was reading Huffington Post.

The comment sections are great for laughs.

Warriorbird
09-01-2013, 01:39 AM
The comment sections are great for laughs.

Just remember its on the same level as me listening to conservative talk radio. Don't take it too seriously.

Tgo01
09-01-2013, 02:12 AM
Just remember its on the same level as me listening to conservative talk radio. Don't take it too seriously.

Give me some credit here. I just couldn't pass up the California not being a blue state bit though. That's taking things to a whole other level of stupid.