Plea deal for Ohio man who kidnapped and imprisoned three girls for ten years

[Candor]

The man who imprisoned and raped three women for nearly ten years has accepted a plea agreement.

Ariel Castro pleaded guilty in court on Friday in a deal that would give him life in prison without the possibility of parole, according to USA Today. He will be sentenced by a judge at a later date.

The deal is for a life sentence, plus a thousand years.

---------------------------------------------------

Sounds about right.

If the judge accepts the deal, I wonder if this will be the longest sentence ever handed down by an American court.

[Whirlin]

As long as he doesn't get put in Club Fed prison, and ends up in federal pound in the ass prison, I'm ok with that ruling.

[Shaps]

When a crime this heinous is committed, he should just be taken to a hole already dug at a cemetery and shot. Our justice system is amazing in many ways, but situations like this... common sense and swift justice should overrule it. Criminals of this magnitude should know, if caught, they will die swiftly and surely.

I know if I were the father, brother, or relative of one of these three women he would suffer the ultimate punishment. I can only hope bad men already in prison, dispense the justice he deserves upon him.

[RSR]

Not the longest sentence in US history.

One of Oklahoma’s most prolific criminals, with a record including everything from rape and robbery to kidnapping and larceny, Darron Bennalford Anderson was handed down a sentence of no less than 2 millennia back in 1944. Upon appealing the court’s decision, Anderson, he received further sentences for each of his crimes. In 1997, he once again appealed the decision and this time had a little more success, as his parole date was set as the year 2744.

There's also Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer, who got 48 life sentences (1 for each victim he confessed to killing) +1 life sentence to be served consecutively, plus 10 years for evidence tampering for each victim (an additional 480 years). No possibility of parole for him too.

The longest prison sentence ever handed down in US history is attributed to Dudley Wayne Kyzer. In 1981, in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, he was found guilty for the murder of his wife. What lead the judge to sentence him to 10,000 years in prison? Apparently, the court decided that the brutality, with which he had slaughtered his spouse, more than merited such a long sentence.

[tyrant-201]

I've always been of the opinion that rotting in prison for the rest of their life is worse than a death sentence. With a sentence, at least they know it's going to end soon. With a life sentence, they've got the rest of their pitiful existence to stew on what they did with the knowledge that they'll never get out.

That said, with some of these people they're incapable of feeling guilt so I doubt that would do much good.

[Tisket]

When a crime this heinous is committed, he should just be taken to a hole already dug at a cemetery and shot. Our justice system is amazing in many ways, but situations like this... common sense and swift justice should overrule it. Criminals of this magnitude should know, if caught, they will die swiftly and surely.

I know if I were the father, brother, or relative of one of these three women he would suffer the ultimate punishment. I can only hope bad men already in prison, dispense the justice he deserves upon him.

Except the women didn't die so inflicting death on him on their behalf wouldn't be a fair and equitable punishment. Satisfying, but not equitable.

He only faced the death penalty because of the forcibly induced miscarriages.

[Shaps]

Except the women didn't die so inflicting death on him on their behalf wouldn't be a fair and equitable punishment. Satisfying, but not equitable.

He only faced the death penalty because of the forcibly induced miscarriages.

Tisket,
I respect your opinion... but people with your viewpoint are those that I don't understand. "Except the women didn't die?"... What this asshole did to them was worse than just killing someone. What he did was a concious decision to rip away their whole being. What he did was a consistent, unrelenting, abuse upon innocents for over 10 years.

The fact that the three women are recovering at all is a testament to their spirit, their passion to live, their ability to recover. They are the heroes. They are the ones that deserve our praise and compassion.

It has nothing to do with him "not killing them".

He deserves no compassion. He deserves pure hell for the rest of his life. He deserves to be killed immediately. He deserves no remorse or society's caring. He is one of the lowest types of people that exist in our society.

-"so inflicting death on him wouldn't be a fair and equitable punishment".... what would be equitable, to use your phrase, would be to subject him to the same actions he inflicted on these three women. I would be perfectly fine if the sentence was for 10 years, daily rape, starvation, chained in a hole, tortured, stomped on, forced abortion, beatings, mental and physical punishment. I know an idiot like this would not survive like the three heroic women. He would cry for mercy. He would eventually probably kill himself. He is a coward.

I would be fine with that sentence.. our society doesn't have the guts to make punishment "equitable"... we as a society can't even see pure evil anymore and not wish to extinguish it... there is evil in this world... we see it in this case... and making excuses for an asshole like this only will make it worse.

"Except the women didn't die so inflicting death on him wouldn't be a fair and equitable punishment"

Really??????

[Tisket]

If you dispense death as a punishment for rape, no matter how horrific for the women, what's to stop a rapists from becoming a murderer during the commission of a rape? I mean, why not eliminate the witness who might lead to his own demise, right?

[Tisket]

You think I would know better than to get involved in a debate right before I have to leave for work. I hate responding via iphone.

[Shaps]

I at no point stated that "dispense death as a punishment for rape"... This asshole held 3 women, teens for 10 years!!!!

There are certain things.. when they occur.. that we should all from a primal level should know is wrong. That deserve no sympathy. I am speaking on this situation, and how evil of a person he is. If you do not think what he did is pure evil, and deserves no compassion then that saddens me.

You can pose all the hypothetical situations you want.

I am speaking on this subject.

There are any number of situations, hypothetical and real, that can be tossed as an argument into a subject like this. But looking at each incident separately, that is what should be focused on. In this situation, this asshole abused 3 innocent women for over 10 years. No mercy should be shown to him.

[Shaps]

And if you think all he did was rape them.. /sigh. He is the devil incarnate for what he did.

[Tisket]

And you make "no mercy" the standard in rape cases and rapists will begin to show "no mercy" toward their victims. The satisfaction of seeing one rapist executed isn't worth the risk to the countless other victims who might end up dead instead of traumatized but living.

[Tisket]

There are certain things.. when they occur.. that we should all from a primal level should know is wrong. That deserve no sympathy. I am speaking on this situation, and how evil of a person he is. If you do not think what he did is pure evil, and deserves no compassion then that saddens me.

You can pose all the hypothetical situations you want.

I am speaking on this subject.

There are any number of situations, hypothetical and real, that can be tossed as an argument into a subject like this. But looking at each incident separately, that is what should be focused on. In this situation, this asshole abused 3 innocent women for over 10 years. No mercy should be shown to him.

Quit trying to infuse emotion into my statements

I did not say I had compassion for the man. I do however have compassion for the many rape victims who might face death if their rapists thinks murdering them will help him escape a potential death sentence.

[Shaps]

Stop trying to change my words... I have clearly stated this is not a "rape case"... This was the systematic abuse of 3 innocent teens over the course of 10 years.

The three women are the heroes. They are the ones who survived. They are the ones who show the indomitable spirit that we as humans have. They show the rest of us that you can live through hell and survive.

The fact they chose to live, they survived, they did not subcumb to misery and kill themselves.... does not excuse him for what he did.

Stop saying this was a "standard rape case", or cherry picking my statements.

How you try to defend that he shouldn't suffer more than he will... I just never will understand.

[Shaps]

To respond to this point you make... If you rape then murder someone... You should be killed. If we, as a society, made it cut and dry. Made it very clear. Made it understood.... if A (you rape and kill someone) will equal B (you will die).

It might actually make criminals think. As it stands now.. you can rape, kill, torture, jail, beat, do whatever... and criminals get 3 hots and a cot, tv, mail priviledges, workout time, free clothes, and whatever else. With the possiblity of parole a few years down the road.

There are certain people and crimes that should be inexcusable. Or at least clearly defined.

Hey.. you can do what you want.. but this will occur. You want to kill? Sure, but know you will be killed. You want to rape then kill someone? Sure, but you will be killed. It's your choice. Don't whine or beg for mercy after you commit a heinous crime.

Caveat, every situation is different. I believe in innocent until proven guilty (don't use this asshole as an example, no court case is even needed). I believe in the jury system. I believe in the prosecution and defense. Our justice system, for all of its faults is one of the best in the world.

It is the will of the people to enforce punishment once a verdict has been reached. It is the will of the people to make criminals, murderers, rapists, child abusers pay the price and suffer. It is the will of the people to ensure that we protect the innocent and avenge them when we can't.

There are certain lines once crossed, that offenders should pay the ultimate price. And in this situation, what this guy did to these three women, deserves it.

[Gelston]

Rape is still considered a Capital Crime in some states. As is kidnapping of minors. The last time a State tried to execute someone for anything other than murder, however, the US Supreme Court threw it out. It was two different, but similar cases in Louisiana where in each, a guy kidnapped an eight year old girl and raped her and then left her to die. The State originally gave them the death penalty.

The last execution for a crime other than homicide was in 1964, and it was for robbery (in Alabama) Earlier that year there was another for rape(Missouri).

All this being said, I am of a doubt that the death penalty would have been on the table in the case.

[Tisket]

Shaps has a reading disability.

on iPhone, will respond to his lunacy tonight.

[tyrant-201]

Uh. We execute people for murdering people. That hasn't stopped other murderers, has it? People don't think about consequences when they're in the act of committing a crime.

[Shaps]

Shaps has a reading disability.

on iPhone, will respond to his lunacy tonight.

? And apparently you are willing to make excuses for the horrendous conduct people choose to participate in.

How is it lunacy to want to hold people accountable? To tell the worst of the worst offenders in our society, we will not accept it anymore. To want to protect and avenge the abuse these types of people impose upon innocents?

I have addressed your ineptly formed ideas.. when I was addressing this specific issue. You are the one that somehow thinks "well he didn't kill them, so killing him would not be equitable". If you can't look at this situation.. as it is.. and what he did.. how he tortured 3 women for over 10 years.. and think he doesn't deserve death?

Then I suppose I am a lunatic to think he deserves it. I will gladly take your cynicism and insults of "reading disability and lunacy" as a compliment. I at no point personally insulted you and I respectfully made my points.

You on the other hand say I have a "reading disability" and am a "lunatic" somehow. Amazing.

[Shaps]

Uh. We execute people for murdering people. That hasn't stopped other murderers, has it? People don't think about consequences when they're in the act of committing a crime.

We're humans. We've been killing one another since we were created. Our society in America today, still has the death penalty. Criminals know that process is rarely implemented. People sentenced to death row can be there for 20+ years.

We will never stop rape, murder, torture, child abuse or other heinous crimes completely. But just because we won't stop them completely, doesn't mean justice shouldn't be carried out swiftly or in some semblance of an efficient manner. There are just some people in society, that do not deserve our pity, our understanding, our compassion or to be supported to live the rest of their lives while their victims suffered gruesome fates.

I still can't believe I'm having to defend the fact that I utterly abhore what this guy did, how he abused three innocents for over 10 years, and somehow I'm the lunatic (to use Tiskets words).

[Shaps]

Side note: 2 interesting articles to read on this subject matter:

http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/usexecute.htm

http://www.cdcr.ca.gov/realignment/docs/Report-Prison_Time_Served.pdf

[Latrinsorm]

He is one of the lowest types of people that exist in our society.Are you familiar with the philosophy that you can judge a society by the way they treat their lowest members? It is most recently attributed to Gandhi, but you can trace it at least as far back as Jesus: of course we're nice to nice people, it's being nice to terrible people that is hard. When we can be reasonably sure that escape is impossible and deterrence is a fantasy, what purpose does judicial violence do beyond satisfying our visceral desire for violence?
And if you think all he did was rape them.. /sigh. He is the devil incarnate for what he did.This is a common but very dangerous mindset. He isn't the devil, or an ape, or a goblin, or a leprechaun. He's a human. The whole point of legislating human rights is that we would much rather ignore them when it suits us, as in cases like these.
Made it understood.... if A (you rape and kill someone) will equal B (you will die).The only way you can make this statement is if you have 100% capture rate, 100% conviction rate, and 0% appeal success. No human thinks "well on average people who commit X crime will be caught, therefore if I commit X crime I'll probably be caught, so I should consider the penalty for X crime", because every human thinks of themselves as exceptional. Everyone who buys a lottery ticket, everyone who pushes their luck, just everyone.
But just because we won't stop them completely, doesn't mean justice shouldn't be carried out swiftly or in some semblance of an efficient manner. There are just some people in society, that do not deserve our pity, our understanding, our compassion or to be supported to live the rest of their lives while their victims suffered gruesome fates.Consider that a bunch of college students (http://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/northwestern/spring99/convictions.htm) were able to exonerate death row inmates in Illinois so frequently that the governor eventually issued a moratorium on all such sentences, claiming that Illinois death row's numbers were 13 exonerated, 12 put to death (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15310-2004Jul26.html).

You would have looked at every one of those 13 people as monsters. They'd been convicted of horrible crimes, hadn't they? And you would have executed an innocent person every single one of those 13 times.

[Shaps]

Latrinsorm,
Excellent points all. Appreciate an actual conversation on it, as opposed to personal insults directed towards me earlier.

I'll take the points as you covered them:

1. I understand what you are getting at with regards to society and how to judge the people in a society. I tried to keep it focused on this specific instance, as there are a multitude of situations and discussions that can be had in a general sense. In this specific situation, in my opinion (and one I wish more people considered-even if they don't agree); there are certain evil's in our world that deserve to suffer death. What this man did, is an evil, horrendous act. He is not one of the poor, the hungry, the sick, the disabled; these people deserve our kindness and compassion. To meet out justice is not a "visceral desire for violence". I abhore violence or inflicting it upon others, but I have done it as a duty and job. There are times that without emotion this can be accomplished. It would bring no joy to kill a man such as this, but it would be justice for the pain he chose to inflict upon others in my view.

2. I know he isn't the devil, an ape or a goblin... but he is the embodiment of evil (or whatever word you want to use for it). To continuously inflict the torture he did upon those three women for over 10 years, that is what he is. Sometimes a spade is a spade, and this asshole is evil to his core. Whatever the reason he did what he did, it is evil, perverted, and inexcuseable. There are human rights... and we should protect human rights... but I chose to stand firmly for the rights of the three women who were abused by this animal and say to him, by his own actions he forfeited any right to share the same rights as society.

3. I firmly stand with your statement on this. That is why I have been trying to keep it on this specific instance. Where there is no question as to what this guy did to these three women. It's indisputable the horrific acts he performed. I tried to balance my belief on this specific case with regards to the justice system in general. I believe in our justice system and the protections it provides the citizentry. I am trying to make the point that some instances (such as this one) are so horrific, that we as a society should not tolerate it.

4. See above, and one of my earlier posts. The justice system could be improved, it is not perfect, but I believe it is the best in the world. We try to balance the rights of the victims, the accused, and society. But again.. there are some situations so abhorent and clear cut, such as this one, that I wish we would never allow them to continue on. That is why I have tried to keep the conversation on this specific instance.

I would love to discuss, in a more general sense, the justice system and how we could improve it, institute better protections for the victims, implement more common sense approaches to the system, etc. But for now... I am trying to speak to the this one matter.

This animal chose to do what he did to three innocent women, and based upon his choices, he should face the harshest sentence without fail in my opinion.

Thank you again for the excellent points.

** For earlier posts I would like to replace the word "kill" with "murder" when referring to crimes committed upon others.

[Shaps]

LOL.. and so the unnamed negative rep comments start. Instead of making silly, trolling reputation comments (that you won't even put your name to);

Try posting here with actual points of discussion to argue one side or another.

[Gelston]

No.

[Latrinsorm]

Latrinsorm,
Excellent points all.Thanks!
1. I understand what you are getting at with regards to society and how to judge the people in a society. I tried to keep it focused on this specific instance, as there are a multitude of situations and discussions that can be had in a general sense. In this specific situation, in my opinion (and one I wish more people considered-even if they don't agree); there are certain evil's in our world that deserve to suffer death. What this man did, is an evil, horrendous act. He is not one of the poor, the hungry, the sick, the disabled; these people deserve our kindness and compassion. To meet out justice is not a "visceral desire for violence". I abhore violence or inflicting it upon others, but I have done it as a duty and job. There are times that without emotion this can be accomplished. It would bring no joy to kill a man such as this, but it would be justice for the pain he chose to inflict upon others in my view.I would just say imagine you're teaching an android how to be a good person, and imagine you have a conversation with it like this:

Query: Why was that man's behavior wrong?
Answer: He hurt people for hurting's sake (that is, not for defense).
Q: Why are you putting him in a box?
A: Because otherwise he could do it again.
Q: Why are you killing him?

Do you think you could give a coherent A that would encapsulate what you mean by "justice"? To my mind you can't say...
"because otherwise he could do it again", because you've already solved that,
"because that'll teach him a lesson", because dead people don't learn anything,
"because it's just the right thing to do", because that's precisely what the android is trying to learn,
"because it'll take back what he did to the victims", because causation can only go forward in time
"because it'll scare off other people who would do the same", because androids are notorious for memorizing empirical evidence that makes us look silly when we make claims like that
2. I know he isn't the devil, an ape or a goblin... but he is the embodiment of evil (or whatever word you want to use for it). To continuously inflict the torture he did upon those three women for over 10 years, that is what he is. Sometimes a spade is a spade, and this asshole is evil to his core. Whatever the reason he did what he did, it is evil, perverted, and inexcuseable. There are human rights... and we should protect human rights... but I chose to stand firmly for the rights of the three women who were abused by this animal and say to him, by his own actions he forfeited any right to share the same rights as society.This is what I mean by being serious and also by being human. If you're willing to have rights be conditional instead of absolute, you've put the criminal in a sort of gray area between human and not, and I think the terminology you use subconsciously reinforces that (and again, it's very very common). Why it's dangerous is that even though you feel this case stands alone and is very clear, there's no way to make a system that works that way. You think it's very clear, someone else thinks it's another Latino getting railroaded by the man, someone else thinks vengeance is only for the Lord, someone else wants to kill all those wetbacks and if the government will do one then win-win. Unless one of you has unilateral authority, you can't go by "we'll know it when we see it", because like sorcerer, the plural of human is argument.
3. I firmly stand with your statement on this. That is why I have been trying to keep it on this specific instance. Where there is no question as to what this guy did to these three women. It's indisputable the horrific acts he performed. I tried to balance my belief on this specific case with regards to the justice system in general. I believe in our justice system and the protections it provides the citizentry. I am trying to make the point that some instances (such as this one) are so horrific, that we as a society should not tolerate it.

4. See above, and one of my earlier posts. The justice system could be improved, it is not perfect, but I believe it is the best in the world. We try to balance the rights of the victims, the accused, and society. But again.. there are some situations so abhorent and clear cut, such as this one, that I wish we would never allow them to continue on. That is why I have tried to keep the conversation on this specific instance.I'm sure the 156 jury members were also pretty convinced that their cases were clear cut, not to mention all the police, appellate judges, etc. When that enormous amount of execution machinery can return only a 50/50 shot of the person we kill actually being guilty, the solution can't be we should be less careful, less deliberative. No matter how sure you are this time, at least 12 other people were just as sure last time, and they were all wrong. Isn't that troubling?

[Parkbandit]

LOL.. and so the unnamed negative rep comments start. Instead of making silly, trolling reputation comments (that you won't even put your name to);

Try posting here with actual points of discussion to argue one side or another.

You've been here since 2008.. and you are still worried about reputation? And unsigned reputation?

[Tgo01]

"because otherwise he could do it again", because you've already solved that

The number of murders that happen in prison would indicate you're wrong.

I would argue that putting a man in solitary confinement is even more cruel than capital punishment.

So where is your God now Latrin. WHERE?!

[Latrinsorm]

The number of murders that happen in prison would indicate you're wrong.We're not talking about a murderer, but in general the conditions in prison are pretty deplorable, yes. Andy the Android (player killer) would start a subroutine for that, no doubt.
I would argue that putting a man in solitary confinement is even more cruel than capital punishment.It is certainly psychologically catastrophic.
So where is your God now Latrin. WHERE?!Strip club?

[Tgo01]

We're not talking about a murderer

Are we talking about stopping rapists from raping again then? Because the number of rapes that happen in prison would indicate you are still wrong.


It is certainly psychologically catastrophic.

So what's your solution for treating a violent criminal humanely while still making sure he doesn't hurt anyone again?


Strip club?

That's where I would be if I were God.

[Tenlaar]

So what's your solution for treating a violent criminal humanely while still making sure he doesn't hurt anyone again?

http://bluraymedia.ign.com/bluray/image/article/108/1088443/escape-from-la-20100507054340121.jpg

Well, that is huge. And it deserves to be huge!

[Shaps]

Latrinsorm,
Again excellent points.. and why I am being very careful to try and focus on this specific instance... where there is no disputing what this animal did to these three innocent women.

Comments like this though:

"You think it's very clear, someone else thinks it's another Latino getting railroaded by the man, someone else thinks vengeance is only for the Lord, someone else wants to kill all those wetbacks and if the government will do one then win-win."

.....Make me wonder. This has nothing to do with race, with a "latino getting railroaded by the man", "with vengeance for the Lord", or to "kill all those wetbacks". You are the one putting these ideas into the conversation which I enjoy to discuss, but I think has no bearing on this at all. And anyone who thinks this has anything to do with anything other than punishing an evil person... /shrug... I'm really not sure.

This is a guy, who beyond any reasonable doubt, who for 10 years systematically abused 3 (that we know of) teenage women. Daily rape, torture, beatings, starvation, mental abuse, forced abortions, solitary confinement..... This situation has nothing to do with anything else... this is a situation he created... these are choices he chose to make and impose his perverted will upon three innocents.

At some point... society has to be able to look at what this man has done, and realize it is so wrong on so many levels... there is no argument for him. There is no redemption for what he has done to these women. There is no conspiracy based on his race. There is no mistakes that can be made who the culprit is. This asshole CHOSE to do this.

There is a reason he was so relaxed in court today... he knew they wouldn't kill him. Up to this point, prior to the plea deal.. he had his head down, looking sad, remoresful. Minute he knew the death penalty was off the table, he walked in like he owned the place.

Asshole just played the system and he will, in the privacy of his cell, be able to relieve and rejoice in what he did to those women. That is the sick part of this. The fact he can stay alive and take pleasure in what he did to those innocents inside his own mind. That is what really sickens me - I can only hope he suffers, even a tenth of what his victims did, in prison.

Other points about the justice system we can discuss another night - My overall desire is that the three women have some sembleance of a normal life following their tragic ordeal. Their statements a few weeks ago truly does represent how resilent the human spirit is.

Was a pleasure discussing this though. Look forward to future ones.

[Tgo01]

http://bluraymedia.ign.com/bluray/image/article/108/1088443/escape-from-la-20100507054340121.jpg

I wish. Although I think Chicago would make for a better jail city.

[dszabo]

Shaps is too high on himself. The bible states an eye for an eye. Are we better then the teachings of God? I don't think so. So improsonment and (probable) rape are in this guys future. I'd say that's a fitting punishment.
You need to remove your own emotion from this situation and look at it from all sides.

[Tenlaar]

The bible states an eye for an eye.

You need to remove your own emotion from this situation and look at it from all sides.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQUW9ia_yBDCgqca07rszSSmDLxMyF-rXfgeehq0XEeebU6JFvEA

[Shaps]

Shaps is too high on himself. The bible states an eye for an eye. Are we better then the teachings of God? I don't think so. So improsonment and (probable) rape are in this guys future. I'd say that's a fitting punishment.
You need to remove your own emotion from this situation and look at it from all sides.

I made this statement earlier... I'm all for "equitable punishment"... are you, or the public, conciously willing to give him over to someone for 10 years to be treated like he treated those three women? I would be perfectly fine with that, as I believe he is of such weak character he would eventually kill himself after begging for mercy.

But people would consider that to inhumane or something. You spout an "eye for an eye", but there is no way most people would agree to really doing it. It would sicken people to do to him, what he did for 10 straight years to others.

He might get raped or beaten up a few times in prison, but they'll segregate him. Our system will protect him from the continued abuse. No one was there to protect those women.

So Dsazbo - would you follow the "teachings of God"? And allow the punishment of "an eye for an eye" really be served? I said I would, so long as he had to endure exactly what his victims did, for as long as they did, unprotected as his victims were.

I'm not high on myself... I look at it from the side of this is an evil man that did horrendous evil things who's soul should not be redeemed. If that is to hardline, or lacks compassion, then you are right. I have none for him... my compassion is reserved solely for the women he abused.

[Shaps]

And if you really want to start quoting Bible verses:

http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-25.htm

http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-28.htm

How anyone tries to simplify what this man did to these three women to a case of rape is, in my opinion, absurd. He raped, beat, tortured, forcibly aborted their children, starved, mentally abused and imprisoned them for 10 years.

Evil is blatant in this case. Some evil is so horrendous there is no redemption. Some evils in this world deserve to be put down, as they have given up all rights to even exist in society.

Say I'm "too high on myself". I'll take that criticism and continue to truthfully look at what this animal did to three innocent women and not ever feel an ounce of remorse for him.

[Tenlaar]

I made this statement earlier... I'm all for "equitable punishment"... are you, or the public, conciously willing to give him over to someone for 10 years to be treated like he treated those three women? I would be perfectly fine with that, as I believe he is of such weak character he would eventually kill himself after begging for mercy.

And how do you find the person who would do that but is not of the same character as the man whom you so despise? Why is the person who could do that to him not equally worthy of your scorn?

[Shaps]

And how do you find the person who would do that but is not of the same character as the man whom you so despise? Why is the person who could do that to him not equally worthy of your scorn?

Excellent question. I don't think there is any normal person that could honestly do it. As I stated, "It would sicken people to do to him, what he did for 10 straight years to others".

I was making a counter-argument to the "eye for an eye" comment. There is no true reciprocal justice per that logic. Most in society would not be able to inflict the horrors upon someone that had so hurt others. That is because most in society have compassion, morals, and care for one another. I retain my full compassion for the victims, not for the one who inflicted harm upon them though.

The psychology of people gets us into a whole nother discussion though. There is a quote, stated a number of different ways, that slightly touches upon this idea (though it is usually applied to those that serve in war):

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

* "We sleep safely at night because rough men stand ready to visit violence on those who would harm us."
* In his 1945 "Notes on Nationalism", Orwell did state that, for the pacifist type of a nationalist, the notion that "Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf."
* Notes: allegedly said by George Orwell although there is no evidence that Orwell ever wrote or uttered either of these versions of this idea. They do bear some similarity to comments made in an essay that Orwell wrote on Rudyard Kipling, when quoting from one of his poems.
o "Yes, making mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep" - Rudyard Kipling (Tommy)
o "We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill (miscellaneous quotation, no date)

A sense of justice, and the ability to enforce it for a just cause, is held by some in society. Even though it may taint their soul, most times their motivation is pure, and I hope based in a sense of protecting the innocent and those in society who can not protect themselves.

Excellent point made though. Definetly interesting to discuss the psychology behind those that enforce justice and law.

[Latrinsorm]

Are we talking about stopping rapists from raping again then? Because the number of rapes that happen in prison would indicate you are still wrong.

So what's your solution for treating a violent criminal humanely while still making sure he doesn't hurt anyone again?

That's where I would be if I were God.Everyone knows FDR solved the Great Depression with a massive public works undertaking. We build twice as many prisons, boom, overcrowding solved. We hire twice as many prison guards, boom, unemployment solved. We implement universal surveillance, boom, gangs solved. It follows as night the day that when you take away motive and opportunity, you take away the act (in this case prisoner on prisoner abuse).
.....Make me wonder. This has nothing to do with race, with a "latino getting railroaded by the man", "with vengeance for the Lord", or to "kill all those wetbacks". You are the one putting these ideas into the conversation which I enjoy to discuss, but I think has no bearing on this at all. And anyone who thinks this has anything to do with anything other than punishing an evil person... /shrug... I'm really not sure.That's the thing though, there are absolutely people who think that even though you personally find them ridiculous. How do we make a democratic government based on "I definitely know this guy is guilty" when I and I and I all disagree on that point?
This is a guy, who beyond any reasonable doubt, who for 10 years systematically abused 3 (that we know of) teenage women. Daily rape, torture, beatings, starvation, mental abuse, forced abortions, solitary confinement..... This situation has nothing to do with anything else... this is a situation he created... these are choices he chose to make and impose his perverted will upon three innocents.And what I'm telling you is that "beyond a reasonable doubt" has turned out to be incorrect many times in the past. 13 people in Illinois alone were definitely guilty and definitely deserved to die, except they were all innocent. There's no "beyond a reasonable doubt but seriously this time", we're using the same standard of proof that we know empirically to be flawed.
Was a pleasure discussing this though. Look forward to future ones.Good talk! :)

[Shaps]

Latrinsorm! Love the counterpoints - but I keep trying to define that I am focusing on this case solely. Not trying to inject all cases in the judicial system into this.

One indisputable fact about this case we started discussing... He did it. He did it to those 3 women for 10 years. There is no dispute. Nada. None. This instance, irrefutable, 100% confirmed can not be factually disputed.

Just because there have been mistakes in the past (ie. the 13 innocents that you quote), doesn't mean that those situations make this one, based on the facts, any less true. Those 13 cases that you point out shouldn't overrule the horrors this man commited upon those three women, based upon all the evidence, and his own admission, oh... and the fact they were found in his house and they all ID'd him, to include the DNA results confirming his abuse.

Whatever others want to think about it, the facts are irrefutable in this instance. If people choose to ignore the facts, well not much I can do about it. Hence my stance on it.

To discuss the judicial system, or other cases, or other situations... I am fully happy to do and I agree with a number of the points you have made. In this case though... pure evil was finally caught and should be punished in my opinion.

Gratefully the three women have their lives, and hopefully through support of their family, friends, and community they can have some sembelance of a normal life.

[Tenlaar]

One indisputable fact about this case we started discussing... He did it. He did it to those 3 women for 10 years. There is no dispute. Nada. None. This instance, irrefutable, 100% confirmed can not be factually disputed.

You seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp the point Latrin is making, which is that those 13 people were also found to be indisputably guilty. No dispute. Nada. None. 100% confirmed.

[Shaps]

You seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp the point Latrin is making, which is that those 13 people were also found to be indisputably guilty. No dispute. Nada. None. 100% confirmed.

Again... I've said that is why I am trying to focus on this case. I do not know all the details of the 13 cases she is talking about. To use them to try to dispute the facts of this case though does not work.

Look at this case as it is, for what it is, without referring to other cases. The facts, his admission of guilt, the child he fathered after raping them (confirmed through DNA), plus plenty of other facts prove without a doubt he did this.

There is no refuting what this man did. To try to interject other cases into this specific instance, which is indisputable, doesn't work. He is not claiming his innocence what so ever. He is not claiming anything other than admitting he did this.

I fully understand and grasp what Latrinsorm is saying. I've said over and over I'd be happy to discuss other cases, the justice system, and whatever else.

But in this instance... there is no refuting it. Make up whatever hypothetical scenario you want.

[Latrinsorm]

I think a review of past cases would be very instructive in how the facts in this case could be disputed, even though we might believe them to be indisputable.

the victims all say he did it - they could all be so traumatized by their treatment that they fully believe this guy did it even when he didn't. Eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable (http://apps.americanbar.org/litigation/committees/trialevidence/articles/winterspring2012-0512-eyewitness-testimony-unreliable.html).
the DNA matches - a child is not evidence of rape, it isn't even evidence of sex between the two parties (as IVF and sperm donation demonstrate).
he has admitted it - people admit to things they didn't do all the time, for all kinds of reasons. If people will do so even when sentenced to death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gauger), obviously they would do so to avoid being sentenced to death.

Because we have seen these things happen in other cases, we must admit that they could happen here. The depths of human fallibility and ignorance are distressing even when talking in neutral conditions, and obviously that much more so when trying to obtain justice for the victim of a heinous crime, but it would be very wrong for us to succumb to that distress when possibly innocent lives are at stake. Do I personally believe he's innocent? No, I do not believe that. But until we have a modern justice and investigative system, I don't see any way to rule it out.

[Tisket]

To respond to this point you make... If you rape then murder someone... You should be killed. If we, as a society, made it cut and dry. Made it very clear. Made it understood.... if A (you rape and kill someone) will equal B (you will die).

It might actually make criminals think. As it stands now.. you can rape, kill, torture, jail, beat, do whatever... and criminals get 3 hots and a cot, tv, mail priviledges, workout time, free clothes, and whatever else. With the possiblity of parole a few years down the road.

There are certain people and crimes that should be inexcusable. Or at least clearly defined.

Hey.. you can do what you want.. but this will occur. You want to kill? Sure, but know you will be killed. You want to rape then kill someone? Sure, but you will be killed. It's your choice. Don't whine or beg for mercy after you commit a heinous crime.

Caveat, every situation is different. I believe in innocent until proven guilty (don't use this asshole as an example, no court case is even needed). I believe in the jury system. I believe in the prosecution and defense. Our justice system, for all of its faults is one of the best in the world.

It is the will of the people to enforce punishment once a verdict has been reached. It is the will of the people to make criminals, murderers, rapists, child abusers pay the price and suffer. It is the will of the people to ensure that we protect the innocent and avenge them when we can't.

There are certain lines once crossed, that offenders should pay the ultimate price. And in this situation, what this guy did to these three women, deserves it.

Rape is awful. Everybody knows. Now lighten the fuck up because, guess what, murder is worse.

This is about scale. I would never argue that it shouldn't be a crime to be forced to have sex. Nor would I argue that it's not a serious crime. What I am arguing is that the perceived severity of the crime is out of all proportion in our society. "Rape is as bad as murder" is really a pretty common sentiment. But here's the thing, it's not a binary situation, something isn't either harmless or the worst thing possible. There's a gradient.

And let me tell you something, your overwrought histrionics are ridiculous. Every attempt to make rape out to be the worst thing that can happen to a woman by making it this exceptional thing unlike all other crimes just validates the idea that women are simply meat holes. If you violate a woman's sexuality, well that's it then. You can't do anything worse to her because nothing else about her has any value.

Fuck, you are really stupid.

I just don't understand why we place more weight on rape as a crime when weighed against other forms of assault and grievous bodily harm.

[Tisket]

I really don't know why your outrage seems to be more about the rapes and imprisonment than about the forced abortions.

[thefarmer]

women are simply meat holes.

http://www.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2010813/300.ab.Lady.Gaga.091310.jpg

[Tisket]

lol

[dszabo]

I do not know all the details of the 13 cases she is talking about.

http://i692.photobucket.com/albums/vv289/fookcc/bqPdC.jpg (http://s692.photobucket.com/user/fookcc/media/bqPdC.jpg.html)

ETA: For clarification, Latrinsorm has been the one referencing the "13 cases".

[Parkbandit]

Tisket,
I respect your opinion... but people with your viewpoint are those that I don't understand. "Except the women didn't die?"... What this asshole did to them was worse than just killing someone. What he did was a concious decision to rip away their whole being. What he did was a consistent, unrelenting, abuse upon innocents for over 10 years.


We were watching TV and some bitch was making fun of someone else, hurting their feelings and causing them to cry. A friend of ours said "There is nothing worse than intentionally hurting someone's feelings like that".

I said "Really.. what about lighting them on fire and watching them burn to death? Or, or.. what about filling a big plastic bag fill of water, placing that bag over their head and sealing the filled bag around their neck until they drown?"

Don't be fucking retarded. Killing someone is worse than raping them.

PS - I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, causing you to cry.

[diethx]

We were watching TV and some bitch was making fun of someone else, hurting their feelings and causing them to cry. A friend of ours said "There is nothing worse than intentionally hurting someone's feelings like that".

I said "Really.. what about lighting them on fire and watching them burn to death? Or, or.. what about filling a big plastic bag fill of water, placing that bag over their head and sealing the filled bag around their neck until they drown?"

Don't be fucking retarded. Killing someone is worse than raping them.

PS - I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, causing you to cry.

God, I hope your friend turned to look at you with a horrified look of fear. That would've been hilarious.

[Catts]

When a crime this heinous is committed, he should just be taken to a hole already dug at a cemetery and shot. Our justice system is amazing in many ways, but situations like this... common sense and swift justice should overrule it. Criminals of this magnitude should know, if caught, they will die swiftly and surely.

I know if I were the father, brother, or relative of one of these three women he would suffer the ultimate punishment. I can only hope bad men already in prison, dispense the justice he deserves upon him.

If you mean this literally, we may as well just disband all courts.

[diethx]

If you mean this literally, we may as well just disband all courts.

Why? Because all crimes committed are this heinous?

Not saying I agree with Shaps, but your statement makes zero sense as a response to his.

[Parkbandit]

God, I hope your friend turned to look at you with a horrified look of fear. That would've been hilarious.

No, she realized how dumb she was being and laughed at herself.

[diethx]

No, she realized how dumb she was being and laughed at herself.

Booooooo. I was hoping she had a fleeting glimpse of serial killer PB.

[Parkbandit]

Booooooo. I was hoping she had a fleeting glimpse of serial killer PB.

I know right?

I mean.. anyone who disagrees that rape is worse than murder MUST be a serial killer.

[Tisket]

I know right?

I mean.. anyone who disagrees that rape is worse than murder MUST be a serial killer.

I would be an awesome serial killer.

[Parkbandit]

I would be an awesome serial killer.

You're a girl.

Everyone knows the best serial killers are men.

Know your role.

[Tisket]

The element of surprise and sheer determination trumps physical strength!

[Tgo01]

You're a girl.

Everyone knows the best serial killers are men.

Know your role.

Listen to the man. At best you could make the best sandwich serial killers like to eat.

[Tisket]

hahha

[diethx]

I know right?

I mean.. anyone who disagrees that rape is worse than murder MUST be a serial killer.

Jesus titty-fucking christ. I only meant because of the examples you just popped up with. Chill out bro.

[Catts]

If you rape then murder someone... You should be killed. If we, as a society, made it cut and dry. Made it very clear. Made it understood.... if A (you rape and kill someone) will equal B (you will die).

Epistemological error is epistemological. :(

The tool men use to create a society is organization. Specifically, men are organized into the criminal justice system of a country, and enact a set of objective judgments in a way prescribed by law. That's what society is, men organized in a specific way.

You just dismissed all that. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572317#post1572317) You don like that organization. In other words, you don't like the concept society, as it is currently defined. To that, I say fine, but if you dismiss the current rules by which society is organized, you must provide a new set of rules before you use the concept "society". Until then, you are using an undefined concept.

At this point, your suggestion is: Undefined should make it clear that killing someone results in death, and undefined should make it happen. But, alas, that's not how reality works. Undefined is a non-entity. Non-entities don't do anything. Your suggestion is invalid. It has no meaning. At best, I could read meaning into it by speculating and assuming that you mean anyone should just get to shoot anyone else because they think they killed someone. I'm not gonna do that to you, instead I'll just point out that your post doesn't mean anything.

P.S. There are reasons why the criminal justice system is organized the way it is (into law enforcement, prosecution, defense attorneys, courts, an appeals system, a supreme court, legislators). Perhaps it would be an easier task to find specific things you think are wrong with it, and suggest minor modifications, than it would be to just reinvent everything from scratch.

Maybe if you understood why justice takes time, you would be satisfied with suggesting that it shouldn't take longer than six months or a year for the system to fully process a cut and dry case like this one, and execute the criminal.

But the suggestion that justice should happen instantly is the dismissal of every single principle and rule that defines society. If you make that suggestion, you cannot then still use the word "society" as if it still refers to a valid concept.

[Latrinsorm]

Jesus titty-fucking christ.I like Jesus very much, but in addition to his trouble with the curve he existed prior to manscaping. Especially since he was one of those swarthy foreign types, I expect this would be a very unpleasant activity.

[Nieninque]

Latrinsorm,
Excellent points all. Appreciate an actual conversation on it, as opposed to personal insults directed towards me earlier.



Dude, she didn't even call you a stupid cunt!

[Tisket]

Dude, she didn't even call you a stupid cunt!

I know. I'm slacking. Getting soft in my old age.

[Candor]

From CNN:

When her chance came, kidnapping victim Michelle Knight lit into Ariel Castro, the man who held her captive and raped her in his Cleveland home for a decade.

"You took 11 years of my life away," she said. "I spent 11 years in hell. Now, your hell is just beginning."

In handing down a sentence of life without parole plus 1,000 years in prison, Judge Michael Russo told the kidnapper there was no place in the world for his brand of criminal.

"You don't deserve to be out in our community," Russo told the defendant. "You're too dangerous."

Castro pleaded guilty last week to 937 counts, including murder and kidnapping, in exchange for the death penalty being taken off the table. The charges stem from his kidnapping, rape and assault of three women: Knight, abducted in 2002; Georgina DeJesus, abducted in 2004; and Amanda Berry; abducted in 2003.

Castro is the father of Berry's 6-year-old girl, DNA tests have confirmed.

[Latrinsorm]

And now we can all rest easy, the monster's in the cage. And there are definitely not any other cases like his going on, and we definitely shouldn't agree to any decreased privacy so the government can better ensure there aren't.

I mean let's face it, if there were 10 cases like this going on last year, the people who did it have been sentenced to an average of 100 years of jail each. What more do you want?

[Gelston]

But the suggestion that justice should happen instantly is the dismissal of every single principle and rule that defines society. If you make that suggestion, you cannot then still use the word "society" as if it still refers to a valid concept.

Not exactly. It would just be a different kind of society.

[Shaps]

We were watching TV and some bitch was making fun of someone else, hurting their feelings and causing them to cry. A friend of ours said "There is nothing worse than intentionally hurting someone's feelings like that".

I said "Really.. what about lighting them on fire and watching them burn to death? Or, or.. what about filling a big plastic bag fill of water, placing that bag over their head and sealing the filled bag around their neck until they drown?"

Don't be fucking retarded. Killing someone is worse than raping them.

PS - I hope I didn't hurt your feelings, causing you to cry.

Just got back from a trip, so happy to reply.

Hurt my feelings or make me cry? Doubtful. You all are missing what I've stated previously. You and Tisket keep trying to justify what he did by saying "all he did was rape them", when you make your arguments. He did this to 3 innocent women over the course of 10 years. He did not "just rape them". He systematically abused, tortured, raped, beat, impregnated and aborted their children. Those acts are much more heinous crimes than "killing someone". Again... he did not "just rape them".

The concious decision to do what this guy did to those women, is much more violent and depraved than "killing someone". Killing someone can be done for any number of reasons and can occur in many ways. Not all killers are evil. What this guy did, was pure evil. There is a distinction and that is why I have no remorse for Castro and what he chose to do. His speech in court today only confirmed to me that he has no right to continue living.

You may disagree and that's fine, but simplistic statements like "Don't be fucking retarded. Killing someone is worse than raping them."; shows either a lack of compassion for what he did to those three women, or just a lack of understanding how horrible such abuses he committed truly are.

As I stated earlier as well... the only compassion and amazement should be directed towards the three women that survived. They prove the indomintable spirit people have to survive when placed in truly horrific situations. I only hope as they recover over the years, through counseling and the love of their family and friends, they return to some semblance of a normal life.

[Catts]

Not exactly. It would just be a different kind of society.

You just agreed with my post, and introduced the same undefined:

"a different kind of society" does not equate any valid concept

[Shaps]

Rape is awful. Everybody knows. Now lighten the fuck up because, guess what, murder is worse.

This is about scale. I would never argue that it shouldn't be a crime to be forced to have sex. Nor would I argue that it's not a serious crime. What I am arguing is that the perceived severity of the crime is out of all proportion in our society. "Rape is as bad as murder" is really a pretty common sentiment. But here's the thing, it's not a binary situation, something isn't either harmless or the worst thing possible. There's a gradient.

And let me tell you something, your overwrought histrionics are ridiculous. Every attempt to make rape out to be the worst thing that can happen to a woman by making it this exceptional thing unlike all other crimes just validates the idea that women are simply meat holes. If you violate a woman's sexuality, well that's it then. You can't do anything worse to her because nothing else about her has any value.

Fuck, you are really stupid.

I just don't understand why we place more weight on rape as a crime when weighed against other forms of assault and grievous bodily harm.

Tisket,
"Lighten up?" - "Overwrought histrionics are ridiculous?"

First, before you embarrass yourself.. read what I wrote.. here I'll quote it for you.. "if you rape and murder someone" or "you want to rape then kill someone?"... Those were my quotes. I at no point said, to use your words, "rape is as bad as murder".

So.. to use your words again.. Fuck, you really are stupid.

Stop getting all worked up and actually read what people write, before thinking you are smarter or more enlightened then they are. Fortunately you have another chance to reply, because the time you took to write this trash is completely nullified by your inability to read.

I've stated over and over... What Castro did was not "rape someone". He tortured those three women for over 10 years. I didn't realize to feel compassion for the victims or to think Castro should get the death penalty for what he did was "overwrought histrionics".

To your last sentence, again.. you apparently can't read.. as again.. I said "It is the will of the people to make criminals, murderers, rapists, child abusers pay the price and suffer. It is the will of the people to ensure that we protect the innocent and avenge them when we can't." So you apparently "don't understand" because you can't read very well.

----------------

Now to your "meat hole" theory. Are you really that much of an idiot? Rape happens to men and women. Violating a man or woman's sexuality is horrible. Is it the worst thing imaginable that can happen? I don't know. I don't speak for them. Everyone handles violence upon them in different ways. I don't devalue anyone or what they've been through, but apparently you do.

How you even try to imply something like that is absurd and quite honestly angering. I've tried to at all times keep this conversation on the points, and you want to go around tossing "fuck you's", well then /shrug "fuck you too". See.. real easy to do. Doesn't make my argument any stronger though does it? That last line is meant to be slightly sarcastic, since you have proven earlier you have a problem reading.

And to use an immortal quote to sum this up: "I take no responsibility for anything I post. It's not news, it might not even be truth, it's certainly seldom serious. Your mother is a slut. Your dad is gay. Your priest is straight. Jesus may love you but everyone else thinks you're an asshole. Just fuck off and let me post my way. It's all in good fun so please DON'T KILL YOURSELF. Do something productive instead, go jack off your dog and post the pictures."

Now lets see if you can form a coherent sentence or just want to bitch and say "fuck you" some more. Should be fun.

[Catts]

You are hopeless Shaps, and hilariously, avoiding this (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572568#post1572568)

Leave someone some neg rep if you're that sensitive about Tisket's posts, but feel free to try to bring some objectivity to your arguments occasionally.

[Shaps]

Epistemological error is epistemological. :(

The tool men use to create a society is organization. Specifically, men are organized into the criminal justice system of a country, and enact a set of objective judgments in a way prescribed by law. That's what society is, men organized in a specific way.

You just dismissed all that. (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572317#post1572317) You don like that organization. In other words, you don't like the concept society, as it is currently defined. To that, I say fine, but if you dismiss the current rules by which society is organized, you must provide a new set of rules before you use the concept "society". Until then, you are using an undefined concept.

At this point, your suggestion is: Undefined should make it clear that killing someone results in death, and undefined should make it happen. But, alas, that's not how reality works. Undefined is a non-entity. Non-entities don't do anything. Your suggestion is invalid. It has no meaning. At best, I could read meaning into it by speculating and assuming that you mean anyone should just get to shoot anyone else because they think they killed someone. I'm not gonna do that to you, instead I'll just point out that your post doesn't mean anything.

P.S. There are reasons why the criminal justice system is organized the way it is (into law enforcement, prosecution, defense attorneys, courts, an appeals system, a supreme court, legislators). Perhaps it would be an easier task to find specific things you think are wrong with it, and suggest minor modifications, than it would be to just reinvent everything from scratch.

Maybe if you understood why justice takes time, you would be satisfied with suggesting that it shouldn't take longer than six months or a year for the system to fully process a cut and dry case like this one, and execute the criminal.

But the suggestion that justice should happen instantly is the dismissal of every single principle and rule that defines society. If you make that suggestion, you cannot then still use the word "society" as if it still refers to a valid concept.

Catts,
Actually our society "as it is currently defined" agrees with me. We have the death penalty. At a federal level. So, even though you sound very smart and use some really big words (I'll admit I had to look up epistemological), your cohesive thought process and basis for argument is false. Hence the remainder of your argument is invalid.

Secondly, in a number of my posts on this subject, I have spoken about our criminal justice system and its virtues, and how I agree with it in order to protect people in our society from wrongful prosecution. So your whole P.S. statement - waste of your time to type.

Also, I made it clear, over and over, to point out in this specific instance, how our justice system should have something in place for a case this apparent. So your point about "if I understood why justice takes time" is again somewhat misguided.

Lastly, your quote:
"But the suggestion that justice should happen instantly is the dismissal of every single principle and rule that defines society. If you make that suggestion, you cannot then still use the word "society" as if it still refers to a valid concept."

It is not the dismissal of every single principle and rule that defines society. The society in the US and most modern nations no longer accept "instant justice". We used to though in our early history (duels over honor, gunfights to settle disputes, etc.). There are some societies in the world today that still implement swift and immediate justice. Now the argument can be made on whether or not that is how they should dispense justice, or even if it is justice they are dispensing, but you can use the word society and it does refer to a valid concept.

My point which you were talking about though was about our lack of enforcing justice once it has been decided upon. If you want to rethink and focus on that point, then I'll be happy to reply or discuss it with you.

P.S. What you wrote sounds like a really good beginning for a philosophy class, dissertation, or coffee shop discussion. Unfortunately you're arguments do not seem very objective, considering you replied to something you did not fully read (to paraphrase your "feel free to try to bring some objectivity to your arguments occasionally" comment you made). Understanding the counterpoints to your argument is always the first step in forming a complete response.

[Shaps]

You are hopeless Shaps, and hilariously, avoiding this (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572568#post1572568)

Leave someone some neg rep if you're that sensitive about Tisket's posts, but feel free to try to bring some objectivity to your arguments occasionally.

I didn't avoid it, I was replying while you were typing /shrug.

I wouldn't leave negative rep about Tisket, she has a right to comment here as everyone does.

I would argue that I've been the objective one in all of these replies. I use your quotes, I make counterpoints. I've kept it impersonal, people want to toss insults. They toss insults, well /shrug, don't get worked up if insults are tossed back.

Seems pretty simple to me.

[Shaps]

Oh.. and I did make an point/recommendation/whatever you want to call it from the get go:

In cases this obvious, this heinous, this perverse... kill him.

I'm not arguing either (as some negative rep just claimed I was doing). I'm replying to what you and others have stated. It's called a discussion. If you aren't looking for a reply, then don't post.

Seems others are happy paying for this piece of shit for the next 40 years of his life. I just think he forfeit his existence. Let's just chalk it up to philosophical differences and call it a day then. /shrug

[Tisket]

You are hopeless Shaps

Truer words were never spoken.

It's really like he can't read. Or he thinks people can't follow along and that by misrepresenting what others have posted it will make his point more valid.

God he makes morons look brilliant.

[Shaps]

1. Thanks for the negative rep Tisket - much obliged.

2. Glad to see you just carry on with the insults - since you obviously can't respond to something when you've been proven wrong.

I used your own quotes to make my points, so not sure how I'm misrepresenting what you or others have said. Don't make those statements if you don't want them used to make you look illiterate.

Try stopping and actually reading, use my actual statements, and form a response if you disagree. Stop thinking you in any way validate your point by making silly remarks. Trust me, your insults have no effect on me. It just makes it easier for me, and others, to think you really have nothing, or lack the ability, to have a discussion or make an argument.

P.S. At least I can respect you signing your negative rep. Most of the people on here are to afraid to do even that.

[Shaps]

I didn't read your shit. You're wrong. Those women deserved it! - Tyrant

Gotta love negative rep like this. Thanks Tyrant!

[Tisket]

Glad to see you just carry on with the insults - since you obviously can't respond to something when you've been proven wrong.

Except that you haven't "proven" shit except that you are an ignorant monkey.


I used your own quotes to make my points, so not sure how I'm misrepresenting what you or others have said. Don't make those statements if you don't want them used to make you look illiterate.

Except...no you didn't. Even a brainless twat like yourself should be able to learn to use the forum quote function.


Try stopping and actually reading, use my actual statements, and form a response if you disagree.

Aren't you paying attention...I've disagreed with you now in multiple posts.


Trust me, your insults have no effect on me.

Your responses show that you clearly feel the sting of each one deeply.


P.S. At least I can respect you signing your negative rep. Most of the people on here are to afraid to do even that.

Yes, people are afraid. Just absolutely terrified.

Moron.

[Shaps]

Except that you haven't "proven" shit except that you are an ignorant monkey.



Except...no you didn't. Even a brainless twat like yourself should be able to learn to use the forum quote function.



Aren't you paying attention...I've disagreed with you now in multiple posts.



Your responses show that you clearly feel the sting of each one deeply.



Yes, people are afraid. Just absolutely terrified.

Moron.

LOL.. people like you are why I enjoy discussions like this. Not sure where to begin with such an ignorant response from you, but seems all you are doing is proving that the only sembleance of talent you have is trying to insult people.

Even more hilarious, is you actually think it has any impact.

Keep on ranting and raving, trying to insult, and thinking just because you cuss or call me names you are making a point. I suppose you've had some success on people in the past with this tactic. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't really work on me.

Thanks again for proving the points I made in my earlier posts concerning you capabilities, or lack thereof. LOL (and I hate using LOL usually, but since I actually am laughing at your reply, it seems fitting).

Can't wait to hear your future responses..... :)

I can just imagine you getting mad and pounding your fists on your desk... lol... "but, but, but I'm Tisket! and I called him a moron! He must be a moron because he doesn't agree with what I say!" ROFL... "he disagreed with me! but all I did was call him names! How come he keeps talking! He should be quiet because I called him those things!" HAHA

Sorry I can't help it.. just to much fun.

[Shaps]

Now on a serious note... Tisket... LOL.

Now try reading and replying to my actual points of discussion on this topic, instead of thinking you can talk with a trashy mouth or insult someone and get your way. It's not kindergarten.

[Tisket]

I, unlike yourself, never get emotional when posting. It takes no emotion at all to believe you have the intellectual capacity of an earth worm. Nor do I break a sweat when I point out that you seriously need to return to school. Or at the very least, turn on your spell and grammar check.

I know it will break your little heart but I have no feeling for you one way or another. This does not negate the fact that you are an imbecile. I'm just being helpful by pointing it out.

You are welcome.

[Tisket]

Please, if nothing else, learn the difference between "to" and "too."

Jesus.

[Shaps]

Tisket.. you try very hard to troll, or you really are ignorant.. I'm not sure which it is yet, but I'm sure you'll post something in the future to clear it up for us.

Anything else smart and pithy to say? I thought you would come with something harder as an insult than that drivel you just posted. That really all you got? You're going to let your fans down.

And thanks.

[Shaps]

Please, if nothing else, learn the difference between "to" and "too."

Jesus.

That the best you got?? LOL.

If you can't win an argument.. try to just insult someone till they stop. Guess that's all you can try at this point.

[Tisket]

This is going to degenerate into ur mom one liners next.

[Tisket]

And thanks, I AM smart and pithy.

Nice to be recognized.

[Shaps]

This is going to degenerate into ur mom one liners next.

You started it.. go back a few posts when I replied to you.. and actually challenged what you would do.. respond on the points of the discussion or just keep responding with your trash talk. Any time you want to go back to the discussion I would be fine with that.

If you want to keep it on this level, either get at it, be a better troll and get better at your insults... or just stop posting and it will all go away.

Your choice.

[Tenlaar]

I use your quotes, I make counterpoints.

Except you really don't. Every post you have made has been a variation of the same things repeated over and over and over again.

1. He did it!
2. He bad man! Berry bad man!
3. He need die!

You seem to think that every time you are stating what happened to the women you are making a new point. You are not. You seem to think that your casual dismissal of anything to the contrary is a combination of you educating people and winning an argument. It is not. You seem to be possessed of a sense of certainty and a firm belief that you cannot be wrong. You should not. None of these things are conducive to the discussion that you think you are having.

[Shaps]

And thanks, I AM smart and pithy.

Nice to be recognized.

You believe you are smart.. that is true.. I will give you an A in confidence for sure.

[Tisket]

What I would do about what exactly?

I don't know how much clearer I can be...the only offense that should justify capital punishment is aggravated murder. He did not murder the women, so I believe the punishment he received fit the crime. If they charged him with murder for the forcible abortions I'd be okay with a capital punishment. But not for rape and imprisonment.

That's crazy talk.

[Tisket]

Except you really don't. Every post you have made has been a variation of the same things repeated over and over and over again.

1. He did it!
2. He bad man! Berry bad man!
3. He need die!

You seem to think that every time you are stating what happened to the women you are making a new point. You are not. You seem to think that your casual dismissal of anything to the contrary is a combination of you educating people and winning an argument. It is not. You seem to be possessed of a sense of certainty and a firm belief that you cannot be wrong. You should not. None of these things are conducive to the discussion that you think you are having.

Don't forget the excessive use of exclamation points. Because everyone knows that "!!!!!!" is the way to convince people of your point of view.

[Shaps]

Except you really don't. Every post you have made has been a variation of the same things repeated over and over and over again.

1. He did it!
2. He bad man! Berry bad man!
3. He need die!

You seem to think that every time you are stating what happened to the women you are making a new point. You are not. You seem to think that your casual dismissal of anything to the contrary is a combination of you educating people and winning an argument. It is not. You seem to be possessed of a sense of certainty and a firm belief that you cannot be wrong. You should not. None of these things are conducive to the discussion that you think you are having.

Tenlaar,
I will agree.. I do repeat myself, because many of the points made was replying to their arguments about "rape vs. murder" by itself. They didn't address this specific instance. One or two people referred to it, and I was happy to move the conversation forward. Others didn't, so it had to be repeated what occured in this specific situation. I've try to separate the various directions this conversation can go.

I do agree with your 3 points above: He did do it; He is an evil man; and I think he should die. Pretty straight forward.

I'm simply stating my viewpoint on it. I have tried, when a point has been made to either agree or disagree with it, with some points to back up my viewpoint. If others wouldn't use what I've said wrongly, then I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

I do have a certainty about what I believe and others have their beliefs. I am simply trying to have a conversation on those points, but would appreciate it if we kept it on this specific instance in this thread. I've stated I'd be happy to discuss other topics (rape vs. murder, legal system, philosphical and societal norms), but each of those could be a topic unto itself.

Appreciate the viewpoint.

[Tisket]

Quit trying to moderate the direction of the conversation. You aren't even the original poster.

[Shaps]

What I would do about what exactly?

I don't know how much clearer I can be...the only offense that should justify capital punishment is aggravated murder. He did not murder the women, so I believe the punishment he received fit the crime. If they charged him with murder for the forcible abortions I'd be okay with a capital punishment. But not for rape and imprisonment.

That's crazy talk.

Thanks for hopping back on topic. Happy to discuss this aspect with you.

Most times I would agree with you Tisket. Most cases the argument can be made, and I think rightfully made to not use the death penalty. So we are in agreement in a general sense.

I also agree with you on the forced abortions, that they should incur a death sentence for him. I fully understand though, due to the wishes of the women, that forgoing a trial to save them the hardship of testifying was fully their right, and I think the most compassionate thing that could be done for them.

I just am of the opinion, that certain cases (even if they don't involve murder), such as this one.. due to what he did, warrants the death sentence as well. I normally would not be so adamant on enforcing such a harsh punishment, but some people (in my opinion, and it's just an opinion) are so evil, they don't deserve to live. I think Castro is one of those people with no redeemable qualities.

If you would like to discuss the overall basis of what crimes fit which punishments in a general sense I'd be happy to. I would be interested in knowing what other crimes you think would warrant a capital punishment. Is there nothing so heinous, other than murder, that you think it should be imposed for? Honestly interested to know.

Happy that we are back on topic :)

[Shaps]

Quit trying to moderate the direction of the conversation. You aren't even the original poster.

And... right back off topic. Just can't help yourself and stay on topic. Nice attempt at controlling the topic yourself though. ;)

[Tisket]

I would be interested in knowing what other crimes you think would warrant a capital punishment. Is there nothing so heinous, other than murder, that you think it should be imposed for? Honestly interested to know.

I literally just said what crimes I believe should warrant capital punishment. You even quoted the post.

I'm not a supporter of capital punishment by the way. I actually believe that murderers should be locked up forever. But if you are going to slap that punishment on a criminal it should be for nothing less than aggravated murder.

[Tisket]

Just to be clear here, I'd be perfectly fine with locking rapists up for life as well.

[Tisket]

I think someone needs to start a completely incidental debate in this thread. It enrages Shaps so much when we swerve off topic. It's entertaining.

[Shaps]

I literally just said what crimes I believe should warrant capital punishment. You even quoted the post.

I'm not a supporter of capital punishment by the way. I actually believe that murderers should be locked up forever. But if you are going to slap that punishment on a criminal it should be for nothing less than aggravated murder.

Fair enough. I can respect your opinion on it. I just wanted to know if there was any act that a person could do to another, short of killing them, that you thought would be heinous enough to warrant using the death penalty. Seems we just differ in our viewpoint, and I fully respect that.

I agree with you on the penalty for rapists as well.

Suppose I just hate knowing we have to pay for this asshole and allow him certain freedoms that he didn't allow those he tormented (ie. not seeing daylight for 10 years). Just such a horrific act.

The most important thing though is that the women are with their families again.

Thanks again for talking about it.

[Shaps]

I think someone needs to start a completely incidental debate in this thread. It enrages Shaps so much when we swerve off topic. It's entertaining.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STAY ON TOPIC BIATCHHHHH!!!!!!

There.. lol

[Parkbandit]

Hurt my feelings or make me cry? Doubtful. You all are missing what I've stated previously. You and Tisket keep trying to justify what he did by saying "all he did was rape them", when you make your arguments. He did this to 3 innocent women over the course of 10 years. He did not "just rape them". He systematically abused, tortured, raped, beat, impregnated and aborted their children. Those acts are much more heinous crimes than "killing someone". Again... he did not "just rape them".

The concious decision to do what this guy did to those women, is much more violent and depraved than "killing someone". Killing someone can be done for any number of reasons and can occur in many ways. Not all killers are evil. What this guy did, was pure evil. There is a distinction and that is why I have no remorse for Castro and what he chose to do. His speech in court today only confirmed to me that he has no right to continue living.

You may disagree and that's fine, but simplistic statements like "Don't be fucking retarded. Killing someone is worse than raping them."; shows either a lack of compassion for what he did to those three women, or just a lack of understanding how horrible such abuses he committed truly are.

No one is saying this guy isn't a piece of human shit that hopefully gets a truckload of Karma dropped on him over the next 50 years.

No one is saying that what this guy did to these innocent women wasn't evil or sick.

You said that what he did was worse than murdering these girls. I disagree.



As I stated earlier as well... the only compassion and amazement should be directed towards the three women that survived. They prove the indomintable spirit people have to survive when placed in truly horrific situations. I only hope as they recover over the years, through counseling and the love of their family and friends, they return to some semblance of a normal life.

You know what these young ladies have that they wouldn't have if he murdered them? A chance at a life. That brave woman that addressed that piece of shit yesterday in court... you honestly believe she would have rather been dead?

Stop bring retarded.

[Parkbandit]

What I would do about what exactly?

I don't know how much clearer I can be...the only offense that should justify capital punishment is aggravated murder. He did not murder the women, so I believe the punishment he received fit the crime. If they charged him with murder for the forcible abortions I'd be okay with a capital punishment. But not for rape and imprisonment.

That's crazy talk.

For what he did to these women.. I would have no problem with the State killing this man. I think the plea deal was in the best interest of the victims and the State though and have no problem with it. I just hope that Castro ends up getting raped by Bubba repeatedly until his rectum drags behind him.

[Candor]

Quit trying to moderate the direction of the conversation. You aren't even the original poster.

And as the OP, I have to say that the ability of some posters on this board to degrade a thread down to worthless dribble is amazing.

[Shaps]

No one is saying this guy isn't a piece of human shit that hopefully gets a truckload of Karma dropped on him over the next 50 years.

No one is saying that what this guy did to these innocent women wasn't evil or sick.

You said that what he did was worse than murdering these girls. I disagree.


You know what these young ladies have that they wouldn't have if he murdered them? A chance at a life. That brave woman that addressed that piece of shit yesterday in court... you honestly believe she would have rather been dead?

Stop bring retarded.

Parkbandit,
In order of your points:

1. I fully agree with you.
2. I fully agree with you.
3. I have been trying to make the point, that what he did, deserves the same penalty as if he had murdered them. There are two sides to look at, the offender and the victim:
-In one sense I agree with you, because the "worst thing" that can occur to someone, is they lose their life, and cannot continue living. So we agree about "the worst" thing that can occur to a victim.
-On the other hand... I think there are some crimes that are just as horrific as murdering someone, and the person that commits those crimes, should suffer the death penalty. I do think there are things a person can do which is just as bad as murder. The focus is on the perpetrator in that regard. This case... the women thankfully lived... so for them, the victims, you are right.. I guess "the worst" did not occur. Now that they are safe though... I consider what he did much more conciously deplorable than if he had just murdered someone.

Every human has the capacity to murder someone given the right motivation or justification. It is something that we have done for all time and on some level can comprehend. What Castro, and others like him, choose to do to people has typically been seen as abhorent, against societal norms, and peverse in almost all of human history (canabilistic, and one or two other cultures, would be an interesting discussion though). The capability for another human to systematically abuse another for such an extended period of time, is almost impossible. No "normal person" would ever be able to inflict that violence on someone. That same "normal person" has a much larger chance to murder someone in their lifetime given the right circumstance. So, I suppose I will have to both agree and disagree with your third point, but I respect it.

4. For your last point.. again you are only talking about the "worst" that can occur to the victim. And in a finite manner, you are perfectly correct. If he had murdered that woman, she would be dead, and not have a chance at life. That should not excuse him, in my view, from recieving the death penalty.. because what he did, there are not much "worse" things that can conciously be committed by one person upon another.

"Stop being retarded" - really? You make some decent points, happy to discuss them with you, and then you have to go that route. Seems you lack the true ability to actually have a conversation as well and once your limited abilities are exhausted, you resort to name calling. That work for you normally, or do people think you're petty and immature when you do that? I don't know you, so I'll let you reply to that one.

Thanks for the points of discussion though.

P.S. As an example: Ever hear how people talk about what happens to child molestors in prisons? That is the distinction I am trying to make. Even violent people in our society, still regard the abuse of children as pure filth. Killers.. dispensing justice upon a child abuser.. interesting no?

[Shaps]

For what he did to these women.. I would have no problem with the State killing this man. I think the plea deal was in the best interest of the victims and the State though and have no problem with it. I just hope that Castro ends up getting raped by Bubba repeatedly until his rectum drags behind him.

You and I are in full agreement on this one. Truly do hope they leave him in the general population.

[Shaps]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/knight-castro-sentencing-hell-beginning-article-1.1415274

Michelle Knight is truly an amazing and corageous woman. Simply amazing.

[Tisket]

I really wish some people would pay attention to the little red squiggle that appears underneath misspelled words before they hit the post button. It doesn't appear randomly.

[Tgo01]

I really wish some people would pay attention to the little red squiggle that appears underneath misspelled words before they hit the post button. It doesn't appear randomly.

To be fair not everyone has Firefox.

[Tisket]

For what he did to these women.. I would have no problem with the State killing this man. I think the plea deal was in the best interest of the victims and the State though and have no problem with it. I just hope that Castro ends up getting raped by Bubba repeatedly until his rectum drags behind him.

Except this probably won't happen. I want to go on the record as saying that Castro won't last five years. He'll suicide before then.

[Tisket]

To be fair not everyone has Firefox.

Bad spellers should.

[Tgo01]

Bad spellers should.

Agreed.

[Parkbandit]

Parkbandit,
In order of your points:

1. I fully agree with you.
2. I fully agree with you.
3. I have been trying to make the point, that what he did, deserves the same penalty as if he had murdered them. There are two sides to look at, the offender and the victim:
-In one sense I agree with you, because the "worst thing" that can occur to someone, is they lose their life, and cannot continue living. So we agree about "the worst" thing that can occur to a victim.
-On the other hand... I think there are some crimes that are just as horrific as murdering someone, and the person that commits those crimes, should suffer the death penalty. I do think there are things a person can do which is just as bad as murder. The focus is on the perpetrator in that regard. This case... the women thankfully lived... so for them, the victims, you are right.. I guess "the worst" did not occur. Now that they are safe though... I consider what he did much more conciously deplorable than if he had just murdered someone.

Every human has the capacity to murder someone given the right motivation or justification. It is something that we have done for all time and on some level can comprehend. What Castro, and others like him, choose to do to people has typically been seen as abhorent, against societal norms, and peverse in almost all of human history (canabilistic, and one or two other cultures, would be an interesting discussion though). The capability for another human to systematically abuse another for such an extended period of time, is almost impossible. No "normal person" would ever be able to inflict that violence on someone. That same "normal person" has a much larger chance to murder someone in their lifetime given the right circumstance. So, I suppose I will have to both agree and disagree with your third point, but I respect it.

4. For your last point.. again you are only talking about the "worst" that can occur to the victim. And in a finite manner, you are perfectly correct. If he had murdered that woman, she would be dead, and not have a chance at life. That should not excuse him, in my view, from recieving the death penalty.. because what he did, there are not much "worse" things that can conciously be committed by one person upon another.

"Stop being retarded" - really? You make some decent points, happy to discuss them with you, and then you have to go that route. Seems you lack the true ability to actually have a conversation as well and once your limited abilities are exhausted, you resort to name calling. That work for you normally, or do people think you're petty and immature when you do that? I don't know you, so I'll let you reply to that one.

Thanks for the points of discussion though.

P.S. As an example: Ever hear how people talk about what happens to child molestors in prisons? That is the distinction I am trying to make. Even violent people in our society, still regard the abuse of children as pure filth. Killers.. dispensing justice upon a child abuser.. interesting no?

This was the first post of yours that I responded to.. specifically this sentence:


What this asshole did to them was worse than just killing someone.

So.. we've gone round and round to finally you realizing that you agree with me. I didn't think it was that difficult of a concept to get that murder is indeed the ultimate crime you can do against another person... but then there's you. It only took you 100 posts to get to where most other people have been at for a very long time.

PS - Killing a child is still worse than molesting a child and keeping him/her alive. Now I suppose you will go on and on about how bad molesting children is and how I must be lacking compassion or understanding.. and I'll once again point out how you are fucking retarded.. only for you to come around a week later and tell me I'm right.

Fantastic.

[Parkbandit]

I really wish some people would pay attention to the little red squiggle that appears underneath misspelled words before they hit the post button. It doesn't appear randomly.

But they are big words and shouldn't count!!

[Shaps]

This was the first post of yours that I responded to.. specifically this sentence:



So.. we've gone round and round to finally you realizing that you agree with me. I didn't think it was that difficult of a concept to get that murder is indeed the ultimate crime you can do against another person... but then there's you. It only took you 100 posts to get to where most other people have been at for a very long time.

PS - Killing a child is still worse than molesting a child and keeping him/her alive. Now I suppose you will go on and on about how bad molesting children is and how I must be lacking compassion or understanding.. and I'll once again point out how you are fucking retarded.. only for you to come around a week later and tell me I'm right.

Fantastic.

And you are either dimwitted or ignorant to not recognize the distinction I was making. I understand subtlety is hard for a "fucking retard" like yourself to understand. You whole argument is "well them there person isn't dead, so what happened to them wasn't that bad!"

I guess you are right... the worse thing you can do in life is kill someone. Just overlook any of my reasoning or thought process behind the "What this asshole did to them was worse than just killing someone" comment I made.

And if you actually read the threads.. and your comments.. You were the one agreeing with me actually, I just had to make it very easy for you to understand it. Hence the comments by numbers for an idiot like you.

And not sure why you think "fucking retarded" is such an offensive term.. you've used it like 4 times in this conversation so far. Come up with something new if you're going to keep this up.

LOL... I have this picture of you flexing your muscles and laughing to yourself each time you type "you're fucking retarded" to try to make your point. You stomping around the sandbox in the schoolyard yelling "hey nerd! hey retard!" at all those that got better grades than you. You just come across as an insecure person to me I suppose.. Just make your points and let them stand on their own merits without the name calling. You might actually be heard.

[Shaps]

You've been here since 2008.. and you are still worried about reputation? And unsigned reputation?

Your first contribution to the thread. Fortunately you stayed quiet for awhile, but I respect everyone's right to post here, so glad you eventually did. Unfortunately, your arguments seem.. lacking in some respects.

Also, you seem a like an angry person with all of the "fucking retarded" comments. Just saying your attempts at trolling, or internet tough guy act, is a little played out. /shrug

[~Rocktar~]

Except this probably won't happen. I want to go on the record as saying that Castro won't last five years. He'll suicide before then.

I will go on record as betting he won't get the chance to suicide once he gets into general population.

[Parkbandit]

And you are either dimwitted or ignorant to not recognize the distinction I was making. I understand subtlety is hard for a "fucking retard" like yourself to understand. You whole argument is "well them there person isn't dead, so what happened to them wasn't that bad!"

Remember when you were standing on your soapbox, complaining about people who resort to name calling and how they must lack an ability to communicate or hold a conversation? Yea...


I guess you are right... the worse thing you can do in life is kill someone. Just overlook any of my reasoning or thought process behind the "What this asshole did to them was worse than just killing someone" comment I made.

This sentence is why I called you a fucking retard. Re-read this part again and tell me how utterly stupid you are.


And if you actually read the threads.. and your comments.. You were the one agreeing with me actually, I just had to make it very easy for you to understand it. Hence the comments by numbers for an idiot like you.

Where did I ever say I disagreed with you that heinous crimes deserve capital punishment? Guess what.. I never did. I simply stated that you are an idiot if you believe anything other than murder is the ultimate crime you can do against someone and even gave you some examples.


And not sure why you think "fucking retarded" is such an offensive term.. you've used it like 4 times in this conversation so far. Come up with something new if you're going to keep this up.

I wasn't going for offensive.. I was going for a perfect descriptive word to illustrate what you are doing in this thread. Retard seemed to fit the bill perfectly. I added fucking because it seemed to accentuate how retarded you are being.


LOL... I have this picture of you flexing your muscles and laughing to yourself each time you type "you're fucking retarded" to try to make your point. You stomping around the sandbox in the schoolyard yelling "hey nerd! hey retard!" at all those that got better grades than you. You just come across as an insecure person to me I suppose.. Just make your points and let them stand on their own merits without the name calling. You might actually be heard.

Actually, quite the opposite. I have very little patience for stupidity.. it's one of my many flaws. And trust me, you didn't make better grades than I did. I learned in 3rd grade "I before E except after C".

[Shaps]

Remember when you were standing on your soapbox, complaining about people who resort to name calling and how they must lack an ability to communicate or hold a conversation? Yea...

This sentence is why I called you a fucking retard. Re-read this part again and tell me how utterly stupid you are.

Where did I ever say I disagreed with you that heinous crimes deserve capital punishment? Guess what.. I never did. I simply stated that you are an idiot if you believe anything other than murder is the ultimate crime you can do against someone and even gave you some examples.

I wasn't going for offensive.. I was going for a perfect descriptive word to illustrate what you are doing in this thread. Retard seemed to fit the bill perfectly. I added fucking because it seemed to accentuate how retarded you are being.

Actually, quite the opposite. I have very little patience for stupidity.. it's one of my many flaws. And trust me, you didn't make better grades than I did. I learned in 3rd grade "I before E except after C".

1. I said in earlier posts, I don't agree with name calling, but if someone starts it.. then expect it to be returned in kind. I don't agree being the first to do it, but I don't mind throwing it back in your face. (Odd.. I before E except after C? Strange, I think I just used a word that breaks that rule.. see if you can find it in the sentence above.)

2. The beginning of that sentence was sarcastic. The remainder of that thought, was to display that you don't understand the distinction I was trying to make.

3. You would have to reread this whole thread to understand what I was saying. But it would take to long and I would have to build a timestamped chart for you to get it.

4. So because you can't discuss something with someone else, they're fucking retarded in your eyes. Because you don't seem to have the capability to understand the distinctions I am making, I'm fucking retarded. Seems that you just run out of ideas or the ability to discuss something in a civil manner. That's fine, even assholes can post on here. (See? I can accencuate how you come across calling people names)

5. You must get upset at yourself a lot then, if you have little patience for stupidity.

I look forward to your future attempts of name calling and absurd comments to try to make your point. I'll make the same offer to you that I did to Tisket... we can keep doing this all day, or you can simply make your points and let them stand on their merits, or keep acting like an asshole and be treated like one.

[Parkbandit]

1. I said in earlier posts, I don't agree with name calling, but if someone starts it.. then expect it to be returned in kind. I don't agree being the first to do it, but I don't mind throwing it back in your face. (Odd.. I before E except after C? Strange, I think I just used a word that breaks that rule.. see if you can find it in the sentence above.)

So, if someone starts the evil name calling, then they obviously have a lack of ability.. but when you do it, it's fine. PS - Hypocrites are entertaining to watch..

"Receive" follows the rule.. which is the word you consistently misspell. Don't worry though.. my 8 year old niece does the same thing. 2 days ago, she spelled "Inspection" as "especshin" I let it go... because she's 8.


2. The beginning of that sentence was sarcastic. The remainder of that thought, was to display that you don't understand the distinction I was trying to make.

I get the distinction.. it's still incorrect though as evidenced by these 3 young women.


3. You would have to reread this whole thread to understand what I was saying. But it would take to long and I would have to build a timestamped chart for you to get it.

Or.. I can just read your last few posts and get the entirety of your argument: You said something stupid, agreed with me.. but still want to support that stupidity in a very weak argument.


4. So because you can't discuss something with someone else, they're fucking retarded in your eyes. Because you don't seem to have the capability to understand the distinctions I am making, I'm fucking retarded. Seems that you just run out of ideas or the ability to discuss something in a civil manner. That's fine, even assholes can post on here. (See? I can accencuate how you come across calling people names)

No, you are retarded because of the circles you continue to roll through in this thread. Also, it's accentuate.



5. You must get upset at yourself a lot then, if you have little patience for stupidity.

Curiously enough, I don't.



I look forward to your future attempts of name calling and absurd comments to try to make your point. I'll make the same offer to you that I did to Tisket... we can keep doing this all day, or you can simply make your points and let them stand on their merits, or keep acting like an asshole and be treated like one.

You poor thing you.. I really hurt your feelings, didn't I?

:cry:

[Catts]

@shaps

You offer rhetorical questions, wordy pretentious speech and undefined concepts as basis for arguments. You have a vocabulary just big enough to convince yourself you're making sense, but you're not quite educated enough to realize you're failing completely. It's a dangerous combination in a troll and generally avoided in objective conversations.

your response (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1574213#post1574213) to my post (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572568#post1572568) baffles me. Your argument has been invalid since page 2. I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to explain why, again.

Perhaps later, though I don't think it will do much. Like I said: hopeless.

[Shaps]

@shaps

You offer rhetorical questions, wordy pretentious speech and undefined concepts as basis for arguments. You have a vocabulary just big enough to convince yourself you're making sense, but you're not quite educated enough to realize you're failing completely. It's a dangerous combination in a troll and generally avoided in objective conversations.

your response (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1574213#post1574213) to my post (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572568#post1572568) baffles me. Your argument has been invalid since page 2. I'm not sure I have the time or inclination to explain why, again.

Perhaps later, though I don't think it will do much. Like I said: hopeless.

If your argument the first time made sense.. you wouldn't have to take time out to explain yourself again.

If your next argument makes as much sense as your first, then you are correct.. it would probably not do much.

Hopeless.

What I enjoy is the fact that both you, Park, and Tisket.. in every post upon my immediate response to yours.. simply go to name calling or personal attacks. That actually is a dangerous combination in a troll.

I responded to your post, highlighting points the you made and I offered a counter argument to dispute your own "undefined concepts as basis for arguments". Your response is to offer a pretentious rambling that doesn't actual defend your position at all. So, who is the troll?

If my responses to your post are so misguided, then simply highlight them and see if you can discuss why. Otherwise, you hide behind "a vocabulary just big enough to convince yourself you're making sense".

[Warriorbird]

I would be an awesome serial killer.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/10_02/MonsterBWP_468x413.jpg

OR

http://apocalypstick.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/patrick-bateman-cheers.jpg

Hmm...

EDIT: It's also bad sign when I agree with PB in a thread.

[tyrant-201]

That's actually how I picture Tisket! Great portrait, Warriorbird

[Shaps]

So, if someone starts the evil name calling, then they obviously have a lack of ability.. but when you do it, it's fine. PS - Hypocrites are entertaining to watch..

"Receive" follows the rule.. which is the word you consistently misspell. Don't worry though.. my 8 year old niece does the same thing. 2 days ago, she spelled "Inspection" as "especshin" I let it go... because she's 8.

I get the distinction.. it's still incorrect though as evidenced by these 3 young women.

Or.. I can just read your last few posts and get the entirety of your argument: You said something stupid, agreed with me.. but still want to support that stupidity in a very weak argument.

No, you are retarded because of the circles you continue to roll through in this thread. Also, it's accentuate.

Curiously enough, I don't.

You poor thing you.. I really hurt your feelings, didn't I?

:cry:

1. Not really... it's just that most people that toss insults around like that.. don't like it when it's thrown back in their face. I never said I was better than you, I just don't think it's conducive to be the one to start it. If someone wants to though, then I'm fine going that route. Not hypocritical.. just action/reaction. You want to keep it civil, I'm happy with that as well. Also good to know that one of the best things you can focus on is when I'm typing fast and type "recieve", if that's the best you can come up with or what you want to focus on... then /shrug.

2. Again you must not... seems we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

3. The reference to you reading this thread again has to do with, what you stated is what I had already stated much earlier in the thread. Your comments, except where I made the distinction of what I consider worse than killing someone, was almost exactly what I had been stating earlier in this thread. So in effect, you agreed with me.

4. Again with the name calling and fast spell check. Good points of discussion.

5. You don't hurt my feelings at all. I just think you don't like someone calling you out as an asshole when you act like one. The insults don't offend me, I just know the best way to piss people off that like to so easily toss insults around, is to just throw it right back in their face. Fun to watch them react and get worked up. (BTW, another word that breaks the I before E except after C rule in the above statement ;) , since you seem to be focused on spell check)

Look forward to more insults, or we can get back on topic if you'd like.

[Parkbandit]

EDIT: It's also bad sign when I agree with PB in a thread.

It just means you are growing as a person.

Congratulations! This almost, ALMOST gives me hope for Shaps.

Almost.

[Methais]

As long as he doesn't get put in Club Fed prison, and ends up in federal pound in the ass prison, I'm ok with that ruling.

http://cdn.memegenerator.co/instances/600x/40261152.jpg

[Shaps]

It just means you are growing as a person.

Congratulations! This almost, ALMOST gives me hope for Shaps.

Almost.

No hope for me! I appreciate you believing in me though!

Whats sorta frustrating in all honesty is most of this thread... we all agree on 95% of everything. If we could keep the insults out of it, I think we could have a really good discussion on the remaining 5%.

From my perspective - let me know if you see it differently - the really only sticking point it seems is:

-I consider what Castro did more heinous than killing someone - from the perspective of the mental capacity required for a person to do this to another human being. Now of course killing someone is the worst thing that can happen to the victim, no doubt, as there is no recovery from that.

-Murdering someone, though the worst end for the victim, is comprehensible to me. What Castro did is not to me. Hence I am trying to express my view on what he did and why I consider it "worse than killing someone". Please refer to the distinction I was trying to make in an earlier post about a "normal person" having the capactity to kill vs. what this monster did.

Hopefully this makes it a tad clearer after 14 pages about what I am trying to get at. As I truly am interested in understanding why people see it differently and if there is anything you consider punishable by the death penalty - or if it should only be used if someone murders someone else? (Thanks Tisket for your replies earlier to this end).

[Parkbandit]

http://www.rockmetalbands.com/moving%20circle.gif

[Shaps]

http://www.rockmetalbands.com/moving%20circle.gif

And instead of an actual response... more trolling from the Parkbandit. Assholes are just going to be assholes I guess. /shrug

Guess life is just as simple as A + B = C, ya fucking retard. <--- sarcasm in case you missed it Parkbandit.

Care to continue or you want to actually address my statement and inquiry? Or is your view so simplistic as "killing is the worst thing that can ever happen!" - If so, I guess you are done commenting then.

[Parkbandit]

And instead of an actual response... more trolling from the Parkbandit. Assholes are just going to be assholes I guess. /shrug

Guess life is just as simple as A + B = C, ya fucking retard. <--- sarcasm in case you missed it Parkbandit.

Care to continue or you want to actually address my statement and inquiry? Or is your view so simplistic as "killing is the worst thing that can ever happen!" - If so, I guess you are done commenting then.

http://rickpdx.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/circle-jerk.gif

[Shaps]

http://rickpdx.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/circle-jerk.gif

Back at ya ;)

[Shaps]

http://rickpdx.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/circle-jerk.gif

Two times /yawn

[Parkbandit]

http://www.smopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Small-kitten-chasing-its-tail-do-not-know-the-cat-will-dizziness-it.gif

[Latrinsorm]

Actually our society "as it is currently defined" agrees with me. We have the death penalty. At a federal level. So, even though you sound very smart and use some really big words (I'll admit I had to look up epistemological), your cohesive thought process and basis for argument is false. Hence the remainder of your argument is invalid.Even to the degree that we have a shared society, which may not be very much, it is not necessarily represented by federal law. Consider slavery, civil rights, abortion. There are significant blocs (at times pluralities or even majorities) that disagreed with those laws, so it makes no sense to say society was nevertheless defined by them.
Every human has the capacity to murder someone given the right motivation or justification. It is something that we have done for all time and on some level can comprehend. What Castro, and others like him, choose to do to people has typically been seen as abhorent, against societal norms, and peverse in almost all of human history (canabilistic, and one or two other cultures, would be an interesting discussion though). The capability for another human to systematically abuse another for such an extended period of time, is almost impossible. No "normal person" would ever be able to inflict that violence on someone.It is in fact quite easy. All you have to do is believe that the people you are torturing aren't really people. See PB's point about how he wants Casto to be brutally raped to the point of physical disfigurement. No one would say that about a human being, but (going back to my point from before) PB has bought so heavily into the "monster" label that it becomes a noun, and what do we do to monsters? Brutal violence.
As an example: Ever hear how people talk about what happens to child molestors in prisons? That is the distinction I am trying to make. Even violent people in our society, still regard the abuse of children as pure filth. Killers.. dispensing justice upon a child abuser.. interesting no?The better question is why some parts of our society not only tolerate that behavior but actively delight in it, but the answer may be because we know our whiny insistence on our supposed rights keeps the government from actually preventing child abuse, so we make a big deal out of how great it is when we catch one and then go back to watching football. People will go to great lengths to avoid an unpleasant truth, especially when they never have to personally witness the consequences of those lengths.

Remember that death row inmates with their 100 appeals were only guilty 50% of the time. If you think child molester inmates are guilty 100% of the time, you're kidding yourself.

[Candor]

Remember that death row inmates with their 100 appeals were only guilty 50% of the time. If you think child molester inmates are guilty 100% of the time, you're kidding yourself.

I will accept that it is unlikely that every single child molester currently imprisoned is guilty. 100% is a hard percentage to achieve.

But I also believe that the actual percentage is very much higher than 50%.

[Shaps]

Latrin,
Again appreciate you actually using the talking points.

All of the things you mention are true with regards to certain periods of our society. Slavery, civil rights inequality, and anti-abortion laws were accepted politically and socially at one point and time, whether it was right or wrong. Through societal changes we were able to force the political change. If we as a society are moving towards not implementing capital punishment, then eventually the laws will change, as the laws represent the will of the people generally.

I agree with your general assessment. It is easy to say and believe the people you are torturing aren't really people. Not many people, and this is why I tried to make the point concerning "normal people", would ever be able to stomach actually doing it, saying it is easy. And especially for over 10 years. I always stated I believe Castro is a monster and I have no sympathy for him. Whatever occurs to him has no bearing in my view. I suppose you could say I no longer see him as human, but I think he just forfeit his right to exist in society based upon his actions. His decisions are the reason he is where he is. I do think certain extreme cases warrant the discussion of does a person of such a heinous nature even deserve sympathy.

I do agree with this portion, and wish there was more active involvement in protecting children. That is a tough discussion though balancing civil rights vs. protecting the children and how far to take it.

I can only agree with your facts as I haven't researched the full appeals system. I hope I haven't given the impression that I think everyone convicted of a crime is necessarily guilty. Why I've tried to focus on this specific instance only. Be happy to discuss it in another thread though.

Thanks again for the interesting points.

--And thanks for the negative rep people.. lol.. 4 negative reps to push me into the red after 5 years. Got to love it, even though they just don't want to discuss things on the board. And if you reply, "well if you don't like it then neg rep them"... Won't happen as I would never negatively rep someone for expressing their views. Makes me chuckle that others would LOL. Now cheat on a trade/cash/coin deal in game... you'll get negative rep.

[Parkbandit]

Latrin,
Again appreciate you actually using the talking points.

All of the things you mention are true with regards to certain periods of our society. Slavery, civil rights inequality, and anti-abortion laws were accepted politically and socially at one point and time, whether it was right or wrong. Through societal changes we were able to force the political change. If we as a society are moving towards not implementing capital punishment, then eventually the laws will change, as the laws represent the will of the people generally.

I agree with your general assessment. It is easy to say and believe the people you are torturing aren't really people. Not many people, and this is why I tried to make the point concerning "normal people", would ever be able to stomach actually doing it, saying it is easy. And especially for over 10 years. I always stated I believe Castro is a monster and I have no sympathy for him. Whatever occurs to him has no bearing in my view. I suppose you could say I no longer see him as human, but I think he just forfeit his right to exist in society based upon his actions. His decisions are the reason he is where he is. I do think certain extreme cases warrant the discussion of does a person of such a heinous nature even deserve sympathy.

I do agree with this portion, and wish there was more active involvement in protecting children. That is a tough discussion though balancing civil rights vs. protecting the children and how far to take it.

I can only agree with your facts as I haven't researched the full appeals system. I hope I haven't given the impression that I think everyone convicted of a crime is necessarily guilty. Why I've tried to focus on this specific instance only. Be happy to discuss it in another thread though.

Thanks again for the interesting points.

--And thanks for the negative rep people.. lol.. 4 negative reps to push me into the red after 5 years. Got to love it, even though they just don't want to discuss things on the board. And if you reply, "well if you don't like it then neg rep them"... Won't happen as I would never negatively rep someone for expressing their views. Makes me chuckle that others would LOL. Now cheat on a trade/cash/coin deal in game... you'll get negative rep.

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572385#post1572385

[Shaps]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?84047-Plea-deal-for-Ohio-man-who-kidnapped-and-imprisoned-three-girls-for-ten-years&p=1572385#post1572385

/yawn - Park.. I do enjoy your attempts at trolling. Keep up the good work.

[Catts]

If your argument the first time made sense.. you wouldn't have to take time out to explain yourself again.


Twisting people's words and using excessive quotes does not a point create. If you had to look up epistemology it's no wonder you're not getting it. Your error is basically: "you can't have your cake and eat it, too." Again, if I feel bored later I might get into it...but here's what I mean by hopeless:


...So, even though you sound very smart and use some really big words (I'll admit I had to look up epistemological), your cohesive thought process and basis for argument is false. Hence the remainder of your argument is invalid.

Saying "you are false" and putting the button on it with "and hence you're invalid" is again, meaningless. Why is it invalid? In what way am I false? What is your definition for society juxtaposed to mine? Try to use your big boy voice.

[Shaps]

Twisting people's words and using excessive quotes does not a point create. If you had to look up epistemology it's no wonder you're not getting it. Your error is basically: "you can't have your cake and eat it, too." Again, if I feel bored later I might get into it...but here's what I mean by hopeless:



Saying "you are false" and putting the button on it with "and hence you're invalid" is again, meaningless. Why is it invalid? In what way am I false? What is your definition for society juxtaposed to mine? Try to use your big boy voice.

One thing we can agree on.. it's boring when people just ramble on and don't focus on what I'm saying. Instead they just say... "if I feel bored later I might get into it" - those quotes are for you. Wouldn't want to twist your words, using quotes of your own words, so making sure to quote something that isn't twisted.

I made my counterpoints to your argument and why basing your thoughts on such a premise was false considering what I was saying. Don't talk about something if you're not going to back it up. Try having a discussion and using your.. big boy? big girl? whatever voice?

Bored with replying to people that don't discuss the points. Hence bored with you. So when you get around to it, reply. If you don't... fine too. /yawn

See you in a month, sure you'll have something by then.

[Catts]

↑ this guy....lol

You're so sensitive. And yes, later when I'm not in the middle of stuff. I actually like to think and process , and develop real points instead of claiming that I had them with the ambiguous "if you see my earlier posts, you'll see I've made it clear many times." No. You didn't, and don't.

So yes, it could be a good discussion. But I might have to dumb it down for ya...again later.

Shaps lol, whata goofball.

[Shaps]

/yawn ... another post with no value... could have saved yourself some time and just not typed till you were ready.

Try keeping it on point next time and cut down on the drivel. Would save space and this childish back and forth that you trolls seem to relish.

Catts lol, whata goofball.

And night!

[Tisket]

Last.

[Czeska]

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/23331636/convicted-cleveland-kidnapper-hangs-himself

[tyrant-201]

http://www.19actionnews.com/story/23331636/convicted-cleveland-kidnapper-hangs-himself

Coward to the very end.

[Tolwynn]

At least he did what the legal system wouldn't. Good riddance.

[Tgo01]

Why isn't a noose standard issue to every prisoner?

[Jarvan]

I don't care if he did it himself, if a Guard did it, or another prisoner, all I have to say is... Thanks.

Should have gotten that sentence from the very start.

[tyrant-201]

There's a special place in hell for him.

And if there is no hell, the fact that he's a stain on humanity is enough. Anything redeeming he ever did in his life is overshadowed by this. He lost his life knowing his friends, family, and victims would never forgive him.

Hell enough for me.

[Tenlaar]

He lost his life knowing his friends, family, and victims would never forgive him.

That's a bit presumptive, isn't it?

[tyrant-201]

That's a bit presumptive, isn't it?

Knowing the case and the extent of what he did, I'd be surprised. If none of his family truly knew this was going on, how could they? And if they did know it was going on, what kind of people does that make them?

[Tenlaar]

The kind of people who would forgive him?

BOOM, LAWYERED!

[Jarvan]

I had a discussion with a friend about this, and he freaked when I said the guy should just be killed and be done with it.

He said he didn't do anything to deserve the death penalty, nor life without parole. He said rape and kidnapping isn't worth a death sentence, and he could be reformed.

I said sure.. one time, yeah.

3 people, 10 years of captivity, multiple rapes, beatings, and possible murders... If you haven't figured out what you are doing is wrong and stop... you never will. People like this should NEVER see the light of day again, once found guilty. I mean, it's not like his guilt was in question.

Good riddance. Just sad that someone didn't get to rape him for 10 years before he got a chance to do it.

[Latrinsorm]

In order: that is not how mental health, the justice system, or deterrence work.

[Ardwen]

the one part of all the testimony I read that stuck with me, is where the one woman that testified, said this monster would go to church on sunday and come home and torment the victims, sorry but if anyone at any time deserved the needle it was this guy. Hell he deserved a much less humane death then he got, sometimes there just isn't a punishment that we can give that's really right for the crime someone has committed.