Detroit Goes Bankrupt

[crb]

The parasite kills the host in the largest municipal bankruptcy in US history. Detroit has been government for decades by a single political party, and this actual bankruptcy serves to underline the intellectual bankruptcy of the left's economic ideas (or lack thereof).

[Parkbandit]

In before WB posts "GOP doesn't cut budgets and hates minorities, women and Mother Earth.

[Atlanteax]

Also in before WB posts "Detroit went bankrupt because of racism"

[Tgo01]

Guys you're forgetting; Bush's fault.

[Paradii]

Circlejerk Combo-breaker. Combo-breaker. Combo-breaker. Combo-breaker.

[Wheelerm]

"We refused to throw in the towel and do nothing. We refused to let Detroit go bankrupt. We bet on American workers and American ingenuity, and three years later, that bet is paying off in a big way."

Barak Obama, October 2012 Weekly Address

[SHAFT]

Everything will be better once they get that statue of robocop up.

[Shabar Shabaz]

Honestly, this has less to do with political parties and more to do with corruption and the idiots in city council. This has been a long time coming and hopefully someone steps in and cleans house.

edit to add: I haven't been keeping up on Detroit politics for the last three years but I'm guessing that it's all the same people doing the same things since nothing changed over the previous seven years

[SHAFT]

Here at Security Concepts, we're predicting the end of crime in Old Detroit within 40 days. There's a new guy in town. His name is RoboCop.

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x176/shaft4783/image-13.jpg (http://s184.photobucket.com/user/shaft4783/media/image-13.jpg.html)

[Gelston]

Just wall the city in and make it a work release prison city.

[Tgo01]

Robocop was 20 feet tall?

[Taernath]

Robocop was 20 feet tall?

Yeah, they explained in the making-of documentaries getting the perspective right was hell.

[Archigeek]

This wouldn't have happened if they'd mass produced the 6000 SUX.

[Androidpk]

This wouldn't have happened if they delivered on their promise of flying cars. Where the fuck our are flying cars?

[Archigeek]

I'd buy that for a dollar!

[Wheelerm]

Remember that this was the movie that introduced the all-new Ford Taurus.

5350

[Methais]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/q71/1004001_10201459499079208_972037218_n.jpg



Circlejerk Combo-breaker. Combo-breaker. Combo-breaker. Combo-breaker.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/044/wrong01.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjXTOdr095Y

[Tgo01]

Detroit Bankruptcy Filing Unconstitutional, Must Be Withdrawn, Judge Orders (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/detroit-bankruptcy-unconstitutional_n_3624518.html?1374259557)


Detroit's historic bankruptcy filing is "unconstitutional" and must be withdrawn, according to rulings filed Friday afternoon.

Ingham County Circuit Judge Rosemarie Aquilina said that Detroit's bankruptcy filing violates the Michigan Constitution, which bans any action that threatens to cut the pension benefits of public employees, according to the Detroit Free Press.

Lawyers representing the city's pension funds and some retirees had won an emergency hearing Thursday afternoon to block the bankruptcy filing, CNN Money reports. The hearing was scheduled to start at 4:11 p.m. But at 4:06 p.m., word came that Detroit Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr had already filed the bankruptcy paperwork with the federal government.

Aquilina told those lawyers that she had planned to grant their injunction.

In three rulings she issued Friday, the judge wrote, “Plaintiffs shouldn’t have been blindsided,” and “this process shouldn’t have been ignored.”

In a statement, Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette said the state would appeal:

Today Attorney General Schuette, on behalf of Governor Snyder, filed applications for leave to appeal with the Michigan Court of Appeals in the three pension cases before Ingham County Circuit Court Judge Rosmarie Aquilina. In addition, the Attorney General filed motions to stay the trial court rulings and any future proceedings while the appeals proceed. Later today, we expect to file additional motions seeking emergency consideration.

Aquilina, a Democrat appointee, also ordered that a copy of her order be sent all the way to the White House, saying that President Obama "bailed out Detroit" and might want to take a closer look, reports the Free Press.

Obama said Thursday that he is "monitoring the situation" but that the responsibility for Detroit's finances lies with municipal and state leadership.

What a joke. What, so, only the bond holders have to suffer any losses? Who thinks up these stupid ass laws in the first place?

[Parkbandit]

Detroit Bankruptcy Filing Unconstitutional, Must Be Withdrawn, Judge Orders (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/detroit-bankruptcy-unconstitutional_n_3624518.html?1374259557)

What a joke. What, so, only the bond holders have to suffer any losses? Who thinks up these stupid ass laws in the first place?

And we wonder why they are in the shit hole they are in...

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

So fuck it, don't file for bankruptcy... does that change anything? I.e. If you don't have money, you don't have money to pay... sue all you want.

[Tgo01]

So fuck it, don't file for bankruptcy... does that change anything? I.e. If you don't have money, you don't have money to pay... sue all you want.

If this judge's ruling stands it basically means union workers don't have to worry about a thing while city services and bond holders take the brunt of all cost cutting measures.

[crb]

Detroit Bankruptcy Filing Unconstitutional, Must Be Withdrawn, Judge Orders (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/19/detroit-bankruptcy-unconstitutional_n_3624518.html?1374259557)



What a joke. What, so, only the bond holders have to suffer any losses? Who thinks up these stupid ass laws in the first place?

1. Gah that judge is a hack, why is Ingham County (where I live) involved at all? Detroit is not in Ingham county. And yes, she is a hack. I fail to see how she even has jurisdiction. How does a county judge in a county across the state from detroit have any bearing over a federal bankruptcy case?

2. This is as retarded as the judge who throw out Michigan's Affirmative Action ban. Saying that "It is unfair because constitutional amendments are too hard to overturn." Basically adjudicating democracy away from the people, as if that decision is going to stand when SCOTUS gets it. Any municipal bankruptcy would be illegal until her ruling.

[Gelston]

Because it is a circuit court, not a county.

[Taernath]

We can't have a day without posts in the political forum.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20121025.gif

[Atlanteax]

If this judge's ruling stands it basically means union workers don't have to worry about a thing while city services and bond holders take the brunt of all cost cutting measures.

Welcome to Detroit-style union-based corruption

[Keller]

As a soon-to-be resident of the state of Michigan, I probably should care more about this.

[Methais]

As a soon-to-be resident of the state of Michigan, I probably should care more about this.

Selective caring is the mark of a racist.

[AnticorRifling]

As a soon-to-be resident of the state of Michigan, I probably should care more about this.

Why the heck are you moving up there?

[Keller]

Why the heck are you moving up there?

Wife's job.

[Keller]

Selective caring is the mark of a racist.

Look, sonny. I've got 2 black friends. They are actually twins. And they're both gay. But not with each other, so I guess I could possibly hate incestuous people.

I am ashamed of my lack of compassion for incest. I've let down my liberal values.

[Delias]

Selective caring is the mark of a racist.

I'm not sure that's true. I care about my friends and family. Everyone else can go fuck themselves. I'm clannish, not klannish.

[Methais]

I'm not sure that's true. I care about my friends and family. Everyone else can go fuck themselves. I'm clannish, not klannish.

If they can say we're racist against a religion (i.e. Islam), then why can't we be racist against anything?

[Delias]

If they can say we're racist against a religion (i.e. Islam), then why can't we be racist against anything?

Mostly due to the definition of the word.

[Methais]

Mostly due to the definition of the word.

But what race is Islam?

[Delias]

But what race is Islam?

Brown, I think.

[Methais]

Brown, I think.

Does that make TheE a Muslim?

[Delias]

Does that make TheE a Muslim?

I have never worked for the TSA. I have no training in the field of muslim detection.

[Methais]

I have never worked for the TSA. I have no training in the field of muslim detection.

TheE seems to have been noticeably absent lately. Has anyone checked Yemen?

[Androidpk]

This explains a lot about. Don't these people have more important things to worry about?

Detroit council supports calls for federal investigation of possible civil rights charges against George Zimmerman (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/Detroit-City-Council-NAACP-George-Zimmerman)

[SHAFT]

This explains a lot about. Don't these people have more important things to worry about?

Detroit council supports calls for federal investigation of possible civil rights charges against George Zimmerman (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/Detroit-City-Council-NAACP-George-Zimmerman)

Jabba the Hutt is a part of that council apparently.

[DoctorUnne]

Penned by MICHAEL SNYDER of The Economic Collapse Blog


The following are 25 facts about the fall of Detroit that will leave you shaking your head...

1) At this point, the city of Detroit owes money to more than 100,000 creditors.

2) Detroit is facing $20 billion in debt and unfunded liabilities. That breaks down to more than $25,000 per resident.

3) Back in 1960, the city of Detroit actually had the highest per-capita income in the entire nation.

4) In 1950, there were about 296,000 manufacturing jobs in Detroit. Today, there are less than 27,000.

5) Between December 2000 and December 2010, 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in the state of Michigan were lost.

6) There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

7) At this point, there are approximately 78,000 abandoned homes in the city.

8) About one-third of Detroit's 140 square miles is either vacant or derelict.

9) An astounding 47 percent of the residents of the city of Detroit are functionally illiterate.

10) Less than half of the residents of Detroit over the age of 16 are working at this point.

11) If you can believe it, 60 percent of all children in the city of Detroit are living in poverty.

12) Detroit was once the fourth-largest city in the United States, but over the past 60 years the population of Detroit has fallen by 63 percent.

13) The city of Detroit is now very heavily dependent on the tax revenue it pulls in from the casinos in the city. Right now, Detroit is bringing in about 11 million dollars a month in tax revenue from the casinos.

14) There are 70 "Superfund" hazardous waste sites in Detroit.

15) 40 percent of the street lights do not work.

16) Only about a third of the ambulances are running.

17) Some ambulances in the city of Detroit have been used for so long that they have more than 250,000 miles on them.

18) Two-thirds of the parks in the city of Detroit have been permanently closed down since 2008.

19) The size of the police force in Detroit has been cut by about 40 percent over the past decade.

20) When you call the police in Detroit, it takes them an average of 58 minutes to respond.

21) Due to budget cutbacks, most police stations in Detroit are now closed to the public for 16 hours a day.

22) The violent crime rate in Detroit is five times higher than the national average.

23) The murder rate in Detroit is 11 times higher than it is in New York City.

24) Today, police solve less than 10 percent of the crimes that are committed in Detroit.

25) Crime has gotten so bad in Detroit that even the police are telling people to "enter Detroit at your own risk".

[Tgo01]

That's all kind of sad. At some point shouldn't the state or federal government step in and say "You all failed at running this city, we're putting people in charge"?

Maybe that's too authoritarian though or something.

[Androidpk]

That's all kind of sad. At some point shouldn't the state or federal government step in and say "You all failed at running this city, we're putting people in charge"?

Maybe that's too authoritarian though or something.

Because the federal government is so much better at running things right :)

[Tgo01]

25) Crime has gotten so bad in Detroit that even the police are telling people to "enter Detroit at your own risk".

I was riding on a Greyhound once (the bus not the dog) and a black guy was sitting next to me and we were talking and he said he was heading to Detroit, he advised me as a white man I should never visit Detroit because I wouldn't last very long there. He wasn't saying this as a threat, he was just saying it's that dangerous there. I don't know if this part is true but as he described it was most white people live in an upper area of town (like physically higher than the rest of the city) where most people do their shopping and working and they rarely come down to the lower part of the city.

I don't know about that though, I took his advice and never visited Detroit.

[Tgo01]

Because the federal government is so much better at running things right :)

Well to be fair I think at this point a dozen trained chimps could do a better job at managing Detroit.

Although to be doubly fair I guess if we're setting the standard there the federal government has an uphill battle.

[Methais]

Penned by MICHAEL SNYDER of The Economic Collapse Blog


The following are 25 facts about the fall of Detroit that will leave you shaking your head...

1) At this point, the city of Detroit owes money to more than 100,000 creditors.

2) Detroit is facing $20 billion in debt and unfunded liabilities. That breaks down to more than $25,000 per resident.

3) Back in 1960, the city of Detroit actually had the highest per-capita income in the entire nation.

4) In 1950, there were about 296,000 manufacturing jobs in Detroit. Today, there are less than 27,000.

5) Between December 2000 and December 2010, 48 percent of the manufacturing jobs in the state of Michigan were lost.

6) There are lots of houses available for sale in Detroit right now for $500 or less.

7) At this point, there are approximately 78,000 abandoned homes in the city.

8) About one-third of Detroit's 140 square miles is either vacant or derelict.

9) An astounding 47 percent of the residents of the city of Detroit are functionally illiterate.

10) Less than half of the residents of Detroit over the age of 16 are working at this point.

11) If you can believe it, 60 percent of all children in the city of Detroit are living in poverty.

12) Detroit was once the fourth-largest city in the United States, but over the past 60 years the population of Detroit has fallen by 63 percent.

13) The city of Detroit is now very heavily dependent on the tax revenue it pulls in from the casinos in the city. Right now, Detroit is bringing in about 11 million dollars a month in tax revenue from the casinos.

14) There are 70 "Superfund" hazardous waste sites in Detroit.

15) 40 percent of the street lights do not work.

16) Only about a third of the ambulances are running.

17) Some ambulances in the city of Detroit have been used for so long that they have more than 250,000 miles on them.

18) Two-thirds of the parks in the city of Detroit have been permanently closed down since 2008.

19) The size of the police force in Detroit has been cut by about 40 percent over the past decade.

20) When you call the police in Detroit, it takes them an average of 58 minutes to respond.

21) Due to budget cutbacks, most police stations in Detroit are now closed to the public for 16 hours a day.

22) The violent crime rate in Detroit is five times higher than the national average.

23) The murder rate in Detroit is 11 times higher than it is in New York City.

24) Today, police solve less than 10 percent of the crimes that are committed in Detroit.

25) Crime has gotten so bad in Detroit that even the police are telling people to "enter Detroit at your own risk".

Clearly the fault of Republican policies...

[Atlanteax]

This explains a lot about. Don't these people have more important things to worry about?

Detroit council supports calls for federal investigation of possible civil rights charges against George Zimmerman (http://www.freep.com/article/20130723/NEWS01/307230095/Detroit-City-Council-NAACP-George-Zimmerman)


“We need to have that same level of outrage with respect to the black-on-black crime that takes place in our community,” Councilman Kenneth Cockrel Jr. said. “How many people were shot — maybe even shot and killed this past weekend in the city — mostly likely by folks who look just like them?”

Welp, will not happen unfortunately ... someone white has to be involved to stir up outrage.

[Atlanteax]

That's all kind of sad. At some point shouldn't the state or federal government step in and say "You all failed at running this city, we're putting people in charge"?

Maybe that's too authoritarian though or something.

No, it would be racist (see priority on response to Zimmerman acquittal)

[Tgo01]

Looks like the bankruptcy is moving forward after all. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/detroit-bankruptcy-filing-lawsuit-halted-judge_n_3645935.html)

[Methais]

Looks like the bankruptcy is moving forward after all. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/detroit-bankruptcy-filing-lawsuit-halted-judge_n_3645935.html)

That's gonna be totally racist against the retired black workers who could lose their pensions.

The white ones deserve it though.

[Atlanteax]

I do not have a link available, but quoting from print edition of WSJ.


An investigate report from the city's internal watchdogs found Detroit's municipal pensions exceeded their legal limits in real-estate investments and awarded retirees in some years more than a 20% return on their annuities even as the funds lost value.


The earnings, according to Mr. Orr's staff, may have cost Detroit more than $1 billion.

I'm sure that the corrupt Union culture in Detroit was uninvolved here.

[Thondalar]

At this point in human history we have vast amounts of data to draw on to teach us what works and what doesn't.

I'm really not sure why we aren't using it.

[Parkbandit]

At this point in human history we have vast amounts of data to draw on to teach us what works and what doesn't.

I'm really not sure why we aren't using it.

Because THIS time, the results will be different!

[Narthsin]

Detroid is this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy) in action.

(Link is SFW btw.)

[Latrinsorm]

At this point in human history we have vast amounts of data to draw on to teach us what works and what doesn't.

I'm really not sure why we aren't using it.It is because of what it means to prove something. It turns out that every proof (every proof) is based on certain axioms that cannot be proven by the system. These are most obvious in logic and math but the principle applies just as inevitably in every science. Consider this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms) for geometry.

Whenever you see the word "prove" (or in your case "teach"), you should always look for the implied indirect object. That is: prove to whom? The only meaningful way to talk about proofs are within proof communities. If you don't accept Euclid's axioms, proofs in Euclidean geometry are nonsense to you.

This is further complicated in the area of social science with the lack of proper laboratories. I can very easily show you the Stern Gerlach experiment working 100 times out of 100 in physics, and if I did you would probably take the axioms of quantum mechanics more seriously (note how this is not a binary proof of true or false, but merely a disposition on your part). I have absolutely no way of showing you any macro scale economics experiment, because I can't hit an airhorn in 1937 and say "okay everybody go back to 1927, now we're going to try laissez-faire 100 times and see how that goes".

This is even further complicated by the possibility that unlike silver atoms, humans have free will and could make different choices under identical circumstances. Multiply this by the millions of people in any economy we take seriously and you have way more variables than you could ever account for.

You may wonder why, given all this, so many people are so quick to paint these issues as simple, obvious; "common sense", "basic economics". However, I think a better question is why you would give these people (including yourself, if necessary) any credence whatsoever.

[Thondalar]

It is because of what it means to prove something. It turns out that every proof (every proof) is based on certain axioms that cannot be proven by the system. These are most obvious in logic and math but the principle applies just as inevitably in every science. Consider this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms) for geometry.

Whenever you see the word "prove" (or in your case "teach"), you should always look for the implied indirect object. That is: prove to whom? The only meaningful way to talk about proofs are within proof communities. If you don't accept Euclid's axioms, proofs in Euclidean geometry are nonsense to you.

This is further complicated in the area of social science with the lack of proper laboratories. I can very easily show you the Stern Gerlach experiment working 100 times out of 100 in physics, and if I did you would probably take the axioms of quantum mechanics more seriously (note how this is not a binary proof of true or false, but merely a disposition on your part). I have absolutely no way of showing you any macro scale economics experiment, because I can't hit an airhorn in 1937 and say "okay everybody go back to 1927, now we're going to try laissez-faire 100 times and see how that goes".

This is even further complicated by the possibility that unlike silver atoms, humans have free will and could make different choices under identical circumstances. Multiply this by the millions of people in any economy we take seriously and you have way more variables than you could ever account for.

You may wonder why, given all this, so many people are so quick to paint these issues as simple, obvious; "common sense", "basic economics". However, I think a better question is why you would give these people (including yourself, if necessary) any credence whatsoever.

If something works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We've seen what works and what doesn't. You're not willing to admit it because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions of how humanity should conduct itself.

Luckily, logic is making a comeback. Certainly slower than I would like, but I feel like people are starting to open their eyes a bit.

[Shaps]

The US is Detroit in 15 years or less.

[Shaps]

Or Greece, take your pick.

[Thondalar]

Also, this: 5721


and:

5722

[Latrinsorm]

If something works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We've seen what works and what doesn't.There is what is true.
There is what we know.
There is what we can prove.

These categories are all very different, and an item can be in one without being in any of the others. Do you agree with this claim?

[Warriorbird]

If something works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't. We've seen what works and what doesn't. You're not willing to admit it because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions of how humanity should conduct itself.

Luckily, logic is making a comeback. Certainly slower than I would like, but I feel like people are starting to open their eyes a bit.

If only this weren't total bullshit.

[Methais]

If only this weren't total bullshit.

You're right, logic isn't making a comeback. Most voters are still stupid fucks that vote democrat for free shit.

[Archigeek]

Idiocracy really was hilarious. "batin!"

[Parkbandit]

Luckily, logic is making a comeback. Certainly slower than I would like, but I feel like people are starting to open their eyes a bit.

Where?

[Thondalar]

There is what is true.
There is what we know.
There is what we can prove.

These categories are all very different, and an item can be in one without being in any of the others. Do you agree with this claim?

Sure. Not sure what this has to do with the conversation, though. We've proven time and time again that liberal economic policies in government don't work. It's been proven across the globe, in different time periods, different geographies, different cultures.

In this case it would fit in the first and third categories, but apparently not necessarily the second.

[crb]

It is because of what it means to prove something. It turns out that every proof (every proof) is based on certain axioms that cannot be proven by the system. These are most obvious in logic and math but the principle applies just as inevitably in every science. Consider this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry#Axioms) for geometry.

Whenever you see the word "prove" (or in your case "teach"), you should always look for the implied indirect object. That is: prove to whom? The only meaningful way to talk about proofs are within proof communities. If you don't accept Euclid's axioms, proofs in Euclidean geometry are nonsense to you.

This is further complicated in the area of social science with the lack of proper laboratories. I can very easily show you the Stern Gerlach experiment working 100 times out of 100 in physics, and if I did you would probably take the axioms of quantum mechanics more seriously (note how this is not a binary proof of true or false, but merely a disposition on your part). I have absolutely no way of showing you any macro scale economics experiment, because I can't hit an airhorn in 1937 and say "okay everybody go back to 1927, now we're going to try laissez-faire 100 times and see how that goes".

This is even further complicated by the possibility that unlike silver atoms, humans have free will and could make different choices under identical circumstances. Multiply this by the millions of people in any economy we take seriously and you have way more variables than you could ever account for.

You may wonder why, given all this, so many people are so quick to paint these issues as simple, obvious; "common sense", "basic economics". However, I think a better question is why you would give these people (including yourself, if necessary) any credence whatsoever.

Nice Wizard of Oz routine.

You're right, in social sciences you lack the ability to do truly controlled experiments as you can in hard sciences. But that doesn't mean you simply throw up your hands, or that you can trot that out to obfuscate your position or as a way to dispute someone else's point without actually addressing it.

We know the universal truth don't we latrine? Human beings respond to incentives. We also know human beings do stupid things, that sometimes they go against their own self interest, that sometimes they're accused of doing that but are only going against what the observer, through his or her own biases, views as their perceived self interest. Sometimes humans can be tricked, or confused. In the hard sciences you can design an experiment and get the exact same result 100 times out of 100 times, and you're expected to if you want to claim you're right. In social sciences, no, you can't, because human behavior is not governed by immutable laws, maybe you get 75/100, but that doesn't make you wrong. Which is not to say that your theory works 75% of the time, it says your theory works 100% of time, but only for about 75% of people, there is a difference.

So there is actually a lot of data backing up free market economics, and other common sense policies that rely on the knowledge that human beings respond to incentives. That is why the world is inexorably marching in that direction, despite the desperate clinging of those in power.

When designing economic policies you just have to remember that fact, and not every human is going to respond perfectly to your incentive, some won't, because humans are imperfect, but enough will, to make the policy work, or fail, depending on how you're looking at it. For instance, all the various transfer payments and welfare programs, these incentivize not working. Does it mean that everyone one on welfare is lazy? No, some people would readily give up government benefits in exchange for a job that paid in aggregate less than those benefits, they would do so out of pride, or out of a long term view of hoping to climb up to a higher paying job, but enough people would rather make more while sitting on the couch then less while working that the programs are wasteful.

The simplest illustration though is with tax policy. I won't talk about income tax, or sales tax, or investment and business taxes, because liberals get stupid about those. Look instead at carbon taxes. Why do people want carbon taxes? To lower carbon emissions. By what mechanism will a tax on carbon do this? A tax would increase the cost of emitting carbon which would incentivize the reduction in carbon emissions. Will everyone stop or reduce carbon emissions? No, not everyone will care, some will just pass the cost along. Does that mean that the incentive doesn't work? No, it works, just not for everyone. When you tax something, people tend to do less of that activity. Why liberals remember that when it comes to carbon, cigarette, alcohol, or other such taxes, but forget it when it comes to work, investing, or shopping, is beyond me.

I would argue against a carbon tax, not because I don't think incentives work on humans, I know the universal truth. I just don't think we need to limit carbon emissions. It'd be refreshing if a liberal said "hey, I know taxes discourage work and productivity, but I don't care, I want the government to have more money to spend on transfer payments." Instead they pretend such economic facts, and they are well proven facts, do not exist. See Wizard of Oz routine

[Archigeek]

You're right, logic isn't making a comeback. Most voters are still stupid fucks that vote democrat for free shit.

Stop being the evidence that logic isn't making a comeback. I mean seriously, every time you generalize like this, it just weakens any argument you may have had.

[Latrinsorm]

Sure.I am pleased with our agreement.
Not sure what this has to do with the conversation, though. We've proven time and time again that liberal economic policies in government don't work. It's been proven across the globe, in different time periods, different geographies, different cultures.I think we can also agree that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a liberal, and that the Democratic party had absolute control over both houses of Congress almost throughout his administration. How is it that the economy as measured by GDP tripled in size during his reign? Certainly your response will be The Great War 2 (This Time, It's Genocidal)... but now you have (at least!) two variables you are measuring with one experiment. How do you know which one had which effect? Is there any combination of period, geography, and culture when you can say literally nothing else was happening?

Then again, maybe FDR is the exception. You say it has been proven, I say okay, let me see your data please.
You're right, in social sciences you lack the ability to do truly controlled experiments as you can in hard sciences. But that doesn't mean you simply throw up your hands, or that you can trot that out to obfuscate your position or as a way to dispute someone else's point without actually addressing it.I did not say unsolvable, I said complicated.
We know the universal truth don't we latrine? Human beings respond to incentives.I think one of the great failings of all social sciences is failing to account for spite. I have a lot of trouble understanding what other people mean by "universal", though, perhaps best demonstrated by my being totally unable to follow your 75% isn't 100% of 75% comments.
common senseDid I call that, or what? :)
It'd be really great if it worked, but you're as naive as a Communist.I got octopus coming out the fucking ears, man.

[Latrinsorm]

One other point I forgot to raise to crb: I think you vastly, vastly, vastly overestimate how often people act in their actual best interest.

[Wrathbringer]

One other point I forgot to raise to crb: I think you vastly, vastly, vastly overestimate how often people act in their actual best interest.

How can one know what is in their ACTUAL best interest without a third party to tell us what that ACTUALLY is, amirite?

[Latrinsorm]

How can one know what is in their ACTUAL best interest without a third party to tell us what that ACTUALLY is, amirite?I wouldn't say the government knows what's actually in our best interests. I would say that an empowered federal government does a very good job of keeping us from acting in what's actually our worst interests, which is a lot more important.

[Valthissa]

I would say that an empowered federal government does a very good job of keeping us from acting in what's actually our worst interests, which is a lot more important.

This is an assertion that (we both agree) you cannot prove, right?

C

[Avamagozma]

Detroit is just one big glitch in the system, and it's starting to creep across all of Michigan! RUN AWAY!

[Latrinsorm]

This is an assertion that (we both agree) you cannot prove, right?As has been demonstrated repeatedly on this forum, I can't even prove LeBron James is a halfway decent basketball player. Perhaps my upbringing as a middle child disproportionately prepared me to realize this truth: there is no proof.

[subzero]

Because THIS time, the results will be different!

Unfortunately, people really do believe shit like that...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spZxUqBeVnE

[Thondalar]

Unfortunately, people really do believe shit like that...


5724

[Thondalar]

I wouldn't say the government knows what's actually in our best interests. I would say that an empowered federal government does a very good job of keeping us from acting in what's actually our worst interests, which is a lot more important.

No, it's a terrible, terrible thing. I only have one life, but it is mine. As far as I know it's going to be the only one I get. If I want to go out with 4 needles hanging out of my arm while banging a midget I just paid 50 bucks to bang while betting my life savings on black 25, I should be allowed to.

[Methais]

I wouldn't say the government knows what's actually in our best interests. I would say that an empowered federal government does a very good job of keeping us from acting in what's actually our worst interests, which is a lot more important.

Can you provide a few examples?

[Latrinsorm]

No, it's a terrible, terrible thing. I only have one life, but it is mine. As far as I know it's going to be the only one I get. If I want to go out with 4 needles hanging out of my arm while banging a midget I just paid 50 bucks to bang while betting my life savings on black 25, I should be allowed to.How did it come into your possession? Do you have a bill of sale? Did you construct it from raw materials? Was it bequeathed to you perhaps due to the actions of a death panel? Or is it just yours because you say so? I think you will find this reasoning is not generally acceptable in a court of law.

Are you allowed to drill a hole in your seat if doing so will sink our lifeboat? What is a needle if not a crude drill, an arm if not a crude seat?
Can you provide a few examples?Well, is our society better or worse when we base our justice system on posses and lynchings? Our economy on slave labor? Our diets on saturated fats?

[subzero]

5724

They at least had some defense. They couldn't exactly dial up the internet and see the truth despite what they were being told.

[Methais]

Well, is our society better or worse when we base our justice system on posses and lynchings?

No.


Our economy on slave labor?

No.


Our diets on saturated fats?

http://cdn.alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/large/fuck-yeah-l.png

[Thondalar]

How did it come into your possession? Do you have a bill of sale? Did you construct it from raw materials? Was it bequeathed to you perhaps due to the actions of a death panel? Or is it just yours because you say so?

If you can't even accept the idea that a person's life is their own, I...I don't know what to say. I think that's an insurmountable difference in universe-view.


I think you will find this reasoning is not generally acceptable in a court of law.

One of the things I'm most adamant about changing.


Are you allowed to drill a hole in your seat if doing so will sink our lifeboat?

Of course not. My freedom ends at the violation of yours.


Well, is our society better or worse when we base our justice system on posses and lynchings?

Worse.


Our economy on slave labor?

Better. Edit: oh, society, not economy....I guess I would consider society worse. But this is pretty moot, we haven't had slave labor since before our parents were born.


Our diets on saturated fats?

No effect.

[Thondalar]

They at least had some defense. They couldn't exactly dial up the internet and see the truth despite what they were being told.

Eh, we have that now, and yet we still have people that think the economy in Cuba is doing great. No Cubans, of course.

[subzero]

Eh, we have that now, and yet we still have people that think the economy in Cuba is doing great. No Cubans, of course.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just saying it's even more pathetic now since we're living in this great 'Information Age' as opposed to, say, the guys from the 40s.

[Warriorbird]

The notion that the world will just spontaneously do right will always be laughably naive no matter where it comes from.

[Parkbandit]

The notion that the world will just spontaneously do right will always be laughably naive no matter where it comes from.

Who even said that?

[Latrinsorm]

If you can't even accept the idea that a person's life is their own, I...I don't know what to say. I think that's an insurmountable difference in universe-view. I try to make it a point to not accept things on face value unless I absolutely have to, I'm supposed to set an example. I need to be the leader, my crew looks to me to guide them, if some shit ever just pops off I'm supposed to be beside them. It is very intuitive to say "my life is mine", but intuition does not have a great track record of being accurate. Let me ask you this, which I find to be a generally useful procedure:

1. If you were building a robot and had to explain to it why a person's life is their own, would you be able to? Or would you just say it was a brute fact?
2. What would someone have to say to you for you to change your mind? Or is there literally no chance you are incorrect?
Of course not. My freedom ends at the violation of yours.And if a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, what then? Don't you have an obligation as a member of our team called society not to harm yourself?

[Tgo01]

1. If you were building a robot and had to explain to it why a person's life is their own, would you be able to? Or would you just say it was a brute fact?

Well there's your problem, trying to reason with a machine. Ever seen Terminator?

[Latrinsorm]

If a machine, a Terminator, can learn the value of human life... maybe we can too...

[Tgo01]

How about this Latrinsorm? What if my parents told me "Son, this life is yours now." They made me right? They can give it to me?

BOOM! Lawyered!

[Gelston]

Tell me this Latrin, who does your life belong to?

[Back]

They at least had some defense. They couldn't exactly dial up the internet and see the truth despite what they were being told.

As casual as this comment seems it is actually quite significant. As time moves on we have access to all the information that has come before. Technology, and our knowledge, is expanding exponentially.

With all that information available to everyone I doubt something like the holocaust could happen again. Yes there are still tragedies in the world but they should occur less and less over time as we grow more connected.

[Methais]

1. If you were building a robot and had to explain to it why a person's life is their own, would you be able to?

Wouldn't need to.
http://images.nymag.com/daily/entertainment/images/johnny5.jpg

[Tgo01]

As casual as this comment seems it is actually quite significant. As time moves on we have access to all the information that has come before. Technology, and our knowledge, is expanding exponentially.

With all that information available to everyone I doubt something like the holocaust could happen again. Yes there are still tragedies in the world but they should occur less and less over time as we grow more connected.

Not really. When a nation as rich as China lets millions of its citizens starve to death every year and hardly anyone says a word I think that proves people can still get away with this shit.

I do love the excuses though "Oh but China is still a 'developing country' therefore it's okay." HA! Developing country, gotta love it.

[Methais]

Well there's your problem, trying to reason with a machine. Ever seen Terminator?


Not really. When a nation as rich as China lets millions of its citizens starve to death every year and hardly anyone says a word I think that proves people can still get away with this shit.

I do love the excuses though "Oh but China is still a 'developing country' therefore it's okay." HA! Developing country, gotta love it.

Yet people say shit like that about America in regards to poor people even though half the country eats for free and the poorest of the poor still have cable and internet and probably a smartphone too in addition to their 37 Obama phones.

But it's ok because hating America is the cool thing to do these days, even in America.

[Tgo01]

Yet people say shit like that about America in regards to poor people even though half the country eats for free and the poorest of the poor still have cable and internet and probably a smartphone too in addition to their 37 Obama phones.

But it's ok because hating America is the cool thing to do these days, even in America.

Yeah people who say this type of thing really have no clue. Yes there are kids in America that go hungry but to actually read about a kid literally starving to death is pretty rare and it's usually due to abuse not to lack of access to food.

Most starving people in the US are the ones who fell through the cracks, who missed all of the social nets that are meant to help them so they don't starve. I'm not saying this is right either but it is what it is.

China just doesn't give a shit. Why should we help this guy eat when we have to spend billions of dollars on Olympic stadiums!

[Warriorbird]

Yet people say shit like that about America in regards to poor people even though half the country eats for free and the poorest of the poor still have cable and internet and probably a smartphone too in addition to their 37 Obama phones.

But it's ok because hating America is the cool thing to do these days, even in America.

I just saw somebody hate on America. He was in your post.

[Methais]

I just saw somebody hate on America. He was in your post.

Obama phones aren't people.

[cwolff]

Yet people say shit like that about America in regards to poor people even though half the country eats for free and the poorest of the poor still have cable and internet and probably a smartphone too in addition to their 37 Obama phones.

But it's ok because hating America is the cool thing to do these days, even in America.

1/6th of the country is on food stamps not 1/2 and the majority of them run out of SNAP benefits by the third week of the month. Beyond foodstamps we all eat from the table of tax payer funds. Damn near everything in the supermarket has been subsidized and although these subsidies aren't labeled as welfare or foodstamps it amounts to the same thing; a supplemental nutrition assistance program. You benefit from it.

SNAP is also a great use of tax payer dollars. This money isn't being pulled out of circulation, it's injected straight back into the economy in communities that need it the most. 76% of the households who receive SNAP have children, elderly or handicapped people living there and these households receive 86% of all the food stamp money.

Why begrudge the poor for having cable, internet and cell phones? These are no longer luxury items. They are vital to a job search among other things. Don't you want them to get a job?

You guys act like compassion is a zero sum game. It's totally irrational your fears are unfounded.

[Tgo01]

I just saw somebody hate on America. He was in your post.

Where did I hate on America? Stop talking for me :(


Why begrudge the poor for having cable, internet and cell phones? These are no longer luxury items. They are vital to a job search among other things. Don't you want them to get a job?

I can see the internet as being useful for getting a job these days, but cell phones? That's stretching it. I know it's rare these days but pots lines do exist.

Also cable helps getting a job? What?

[Gelston]

Cable is definitely a luxury item, a TV itself is a luxury item. As far as internet, most libraries offer free internet.

[Back]

Go out to your local landfill and check out how many of those "luxury items" are stacked up for recycling.

[Gelston]

Go out to your local landfill and check out how many of those "luxury items" are stacked up for recycling.

That has what to do with anything? There are XBoxs and PS3s in landfills too. Just because an item is thrown away when broken or when a better version is out, doesn't change the fact that it is a luxury item.

[Tgo01]

Go out to your local landfill and check out how many of those "luxury items" are stacked up for recycling.

I can't tell if this is a joke or you're trying to make a point?

Is it one? Both? Neither?


That has what to do with anything? There are XBoxs and PS3s in landfills too.

Come on man, XBoxs and PS3s are essential to finding a job these days.

[Warriorbird]

1/6th of the country is on food stamps not 1/2 and the majority of them run out of SNAP benefits by the third week of the month. Beyond foodstamps we all eat from the table of tax payer funds. Damn near everything in the supermarket has been subsidized and although these subsidies aren't labeled as welfare or foodstamps it amounts to the same thing; a supplemental nutrition assistance program. You benefit from it.

SNAP is also a great use of tax payer dollars. This money isn't being pulled out of circulation, it's injected straight back into the economy in communities that need it the most. 76% of the households who receive SNAP have children, elderly or handicapped people living there and these households receive 86% of all the food stamp money.

Why begrudge the poor for having cable, internet and cell phones? These are no longer luxury items. They are vital to a job search among other things. Don't you want them to get a job?

You guys act like compassion is a zero sum game. It's totally irrational your fears are unfounded.

He just wants reasons to feel superior to the "other." He resents their happiness. He feels like they get "free stuff" without working when he works hard. It makes people some people feel better about their lives when they can resent others.

[Tgo01]

He just wants reasons to feel superior to the "other." He resents their happiness. He feels like they get "free stuff" without working when he works hard. It makes people some people feel better about their lives when they can resent others.

Is this not the most ironic post in the thread or what?

[Parkbandit]

Is this not the most ironic post in the thread or what?

Ironic is a very nice way to put it.

[Warriorbird]

Is this not the most ironic post in the thread or what?

I get the principle. I just feel sorry for him rather than resent him. Both you and your dear friend PB could also think what your responses imply.

[Back]

That has what to do with anything? There are XBoxs and PS3s in landfills too. Just because an item is thrown away when broken or when a better version is out, doesn't change the fact that it is a luxury item.

This the great part about the free market. Items that were once afforded only by the privileged are now mass produced and cheap enough for just about everyone.

In terms of televisions... you can't even get money for old CRTs. Some places make you pay them to take them off your hands. And its only going to continue this way as time goes on.

[Latrinsorm]

How about this Latrinsorm? What if my parents told me "Son, this life is yours now." They made me right? They can give it to me?

BOOM! Lawyered!Can they demonstrate possession at the point of sale? I can hand you a stereo off the back of a truck, that doesn't mean you legally own it.
Tell me this Latrin, who does your life belong to?I don't have all the answers (outside of the criminal justice system). I'm just trying to point out that all of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again. Many (most? all?) of the certainties we have today will appear comical in the future.

[Methais]

1/6th of the country is on food stamps not 1/2 and the majority of them run out of SNAP benefits by the third week of the month. Beyond foodstamps we all eat from the table of tax payer funds. Damn near everything in the supermarket has been subsidized and although these subsidies aren't labeled as welfare or foodstamps it amounts to the same thing; a supplemental nutrition assistance program. You benefit from it.

SNAP is also a great use of tax payer dollars. This money isn't being pulled out of circulation, it's injected straight back into the economy in communities that need it the most. 76% of the households who receive SNAP have children, elderly or handicapped people living there and these households receive 86% of all the food stamp money.

Why begrudge the poor for having cable, internet and cell phones? These are no longer luxury items. They are vital to a job search among other things. Don't you want them to get a job?

You guys act like compassion is a zero sum game. It's totally irrational your fears are unfounded.

If people are running out of food stamps on their 3rd week, then they should learn to shop better. You're not going to convince me that most if not all of those people are buying what they need and not buying what they want, loading up on steaks and junk food and all that. Go stand in line at Walmart and you'll see it with your own eyes. The problem is you refuse to open your eyes.

I'm also not referring to old or disabled people or people who are legitimately in need when I talk about food stamps being exploited and abused. You retards already know this, but you insist on barfing out the "you hate poor people!" line anyway, as if it adds merit to your bullshit arguments.

I'm sure I could get on food stamps if I applied for it. Why don't I? Because much like a good portion of people who are on it, I don't need it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I can make cuts in other places if I need to, like when I cut my cable off a few years ago, or drastically reducing how much I go out to eat, etc. Which by the way, cable is not even close to a necessity, and is indeed a luxury item. Watching HBO or Food Network typically doesn't help people get jobs last time I checked.

And that's the whole crux of the problem...people like you and Back and WB are convinced that cable and other similar things are necessities and that people shouldn't have to decide between HBO and having food in their kitchen. Cable and all that are luxury items, and at worst, not having cable or internet or cell phones is an inconvenience. Anyone who thinks these things are necessities thinks that way due to a sense of entitlement that they are above having to be inconvenienced.

Besides, how many of those people do you think are using their internet to look for jobs, instead of watching Netflix and posting selfies on Facebook?

If you sat down with your average food stamp/welfare recipient and broke down all of their expenses and cut out the things that aren't necessities, a good portion of them would be able to afford groceries with the money saved from cutting off their cable and whatnot. They wouldn't be eating steak and lobster, but then again neither am I, so why should I be paying for theirs? Because people like you think that's what "compassion" is? Being that high up on your pedestal of so called compassion only blinds you to the point where it becomes easy for those who are capable to exploit people like you in the name of "compassion" and make you feel good about it in the process. This doesn't make you compassionate. It makes you stupid, or naive at the very least.

Feel free to send me a steak and lobster dinner though, because that would be the compassionate thing to do, even though I don't actually need it. But I want a steak and lobster dinner anyway, and I don't want to make cuts somewhere else to get it. Therefore you owe it to me. And if you say no then you hate poor people, even if you yourself can't afford to buy me steak and lobster.

Go ahead and save this post, so that I don't have to type this up again next time food stamps come up and you make your same bullshit arguments and WB's ad hominem ridiculousness.

I mean do you know how much longer it takes to write all this while driving? And nobody even got in a wreck and died or got run over. HAVE SOME COMPASSION FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

[Back]

If people are running out of food stamps on their 3rd week, then they should learn to shop better. You're not going to convince me that most if not all of those people are buying what they need and not buying what they want, loading up on steaks and junk food and all that. Go stand in line at Walmart and you'll see it with your own eyes. The problem is you refuse to open your eyes.

I'm also not referring to old or disabled people or people who are legitimately in need when I talk about food stamps being exploited and abused. You retards already know this, but you insist on barfing out the "you hate poor people!" line anyway, as if it adds merit to your bullshit arguments.

I'm sure I could get on food stamps if I applied for it. Why don't I? Because much like a good portion of people who are on it, I don't need it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I can make cuts in other places if I need to, like when I cut my cable off a few years ago, or drastically reducing how much I go out to eat, etc. Which by the way, cable is not even close to a necessity, and is indeed a luxury item. Watching HBO or Food Network typically doesn't help people get jobs last time I checked.

And that's the whole crux of the problem...people like you and Back and WB are convinced that cable and other similar things are necessities and that people shouldn't have to decide between HBO and having food in their kitchen. Cable and all that are luxury items, and at worst, not having cable or internet or cell phones is an inconvenience. Anyone who thinks these things are necessities thinks that way due to a sense of entitlement that they are above having to be inconvenienced.

Besides, how many of those people do you think are using their internet to look for jobs, instead of watching Netflix and posting selfies on Facebook?

If you sat down with your average food stamp/welfare recipient and broke down all of their expenses and cut out the things that aren't necessities, a good portion of them would be able to afford groceries with the money saved from cutting off their cable and whatnot. They wouldn't be eating steak and lobster, but then again neither am I, so why should I be paying for theirs? Because people like you think that's what "compassion" is? Being that high up on your pedestal of so called compassion only blinds you to the point where it becomes easy for those who are capable to exploit people like you in the name of "compassion" and make you feel good about it in the process. This doesn't make you compassionate. It makes you stupid, or naive at the very least.

Feel free to send me a steak and lobster dinner though, because that would be the compassionate thing to do, even though I don't actually need it. But I want a steak and lobster dinner anyway, and I don't want to make cuts somewhere else to get it. Therefore you owe it to me. And if you say no then you hate poor people, even if you yourself can't afford to buy me steak and lobster.

Go ahead and save this post, so that I don't have to type this up again next time food stamps come up and you make your same bullshit arguments and WB's ad hominem ridiculousness.

I mean do you know how much longer it takes to write all this while driving? And nobody even got in a wreck and died or got run over. HAVE SOME COMPASSION FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

Saved.

[Methais]

I'm curious as to your reasoning for bolding "those people" in your quote of my post.

Please enlighten me.

[Warriorbird]

I'm curious as to your reasoning for bolding "those people" in your quote of my post.

Please enlighten me.

I'm sure you can put it together, chip on your shoulder guy.

I also like your magic realism story where I think cable is a necessity. A phone certainly is if you actually want them to work though.

Now want to really scare yourself?

$59 billion is spent on traditional welfare.

$92 billion is spent on corporate subsidies. $58 billion is spent a year to allow corporations to hide their profits overseas. $59 billion is spent allowing people who's income is primarily capital gains half the taxes of everybody else. Hedge fund managers avoid $2.1 billion a year in taxes.

So when you're raging down the aisles in Walmart at all of "those people." be sure to direct some of it at the building and the products on the shelves too.

[Methais]

I'm sure you can put it together, chip on your shoulder guy.

No no, please spell it out for me. I want to be absolutely clear that I'm understanding you and Backlash correctly.

Also, since you love to say I have a chip on my shoulder anytime I have a problem with people abusing a handout system, allow me to point out the irony of your favorite phrase:

"A chip on the shoulder" comes from the ancient right of shipwrights within the Royal Navy Dockyards to take home a daily allowance of offcuts of timber, even if good wood was cut up for this purpose. The privilege was reinstated before 1660.[1] By 1756, this privilege had been abused and was costing the taxpayer too much in lost timber for warship repair and construction. The decision was made by the Navy Board to limit the quantity a shipwright could carry home. A warrant was issued to the Royal Dockyards to reduce the quantity of chips by ordering shipwrights to carry their bundles under their arms instead of on their shoulders, as one could not carry as much timber in this fashion."

Ironically enough, the people who are abusing the system are the ones with the chips on their shoulders.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmwqnqL3Hbg


I also like your magic realism story where I think cable is a necessity.

That was a response to cwolff, since he was the one saying it was a necessity. Reading is hard. Especially when it was his post I quoted, and your name was only mentioned as a tiny blip at the end. Self important much?


A phone certainly is if you actually want them to work though.

I specifically said cell phones. You're aware that land lines still exist, right?


$92 billion is spent on corporate subsidies. $58 billion is spent a year to allow corporations to hide their profits overseas. $59 billion is spent allowing people who's income is primarily capital gains half the taxes of everybody else. Hedge fund managers avoid $2.1 billion a year in taxes.

That's great. Would you mind pointing out any post at any point in time where I said I was in favor of corporate subsidies?


So when you're raging down the aisles in Walmart at all of "those people." be sure to direct some of it at the building and the products on the shelves too.

I think it's a safe bet that the box of Frosted Flakes on the shelf isn't responsible for people abusing the food stamp system. As a matter of fact, they probably don't even buy Frosted Flakes because they run out of food stamps in 3 weeks after buying steaks and crab legs and cakes and shit.

I am still unclear on what your interpretation of "those people" is from my post though. Please enlighten me. Like really, really, really spell it out for me. Use crayons if you think you have to. And then tell me how you came to that conclusion.

[Gelston]

This the great part about the free market. Items that were once afforded only by the privileged are now mass produced and cheap enough for just about everyone.

In terms of televisions... you can't even get money for old CRTs. Some places make you pay them to take them off your hands. And its only going to continue this way as time goes on.

Yes, that is great. How does it make it not a luxury item?

[Methais]

Yes, that is great. How does it make it not a luxury item?

YOU CAN'T GET A JOB IF YOU DON'T WATCH TV DON'T YOU KNOW ANYTHING?!?!? HAVE SOME FUCKING COMPASSION!

http://cdn.meme.li/i/otiab.jpg

[Bobmuhthol]

Cable is definitely a luxury item, a TV itself is a luxury item. As far as internet, most libraries offer free internet.What in the fuck? Televisions are luxury items in what universe? Cable is a luxury??? It costs more money to get just an internet connection from Comcast than it does to get a bundle with cable and internet. But yeah, internet is cool and cable is a luxury, all day, totally. I spend more on single meals, which I agree are unnecessary and borderline "luxurious," than I do on my monthly cable and internet bill. And I've had the same $550 TV since 2008. Luxury city.

Just so we're on the same page, the definition of luxury is not "something outside of what is necessary to sustain life."

[Gelston]

What in the fuck? Televisions are luxury items in what universe? Cable is a luxury??? It costs more money to get just an internet connection from Comcast than it does to get a bundle with cable and internet. But yeah, internet is cool and cable is a luxury, all day, totally. I spend more on single meals, which I agree are unnecessary and borderline "luxurious," than I do on my monthly cable and internet bill. And I've had the same $550 TV since 2008. Luxury city.

Just so we're on the same page, the definition of luxury is not "something outside of what is necessary to sustain life."

I hope that is sarcasm.

[Bobmuhthol]

None of it is.

[Methais]

Just so we're on the same page, the definition of luxury is not "something outside of what is necessary to sustain life."

What is luxury then? Nothing short of a Rolls Royce?

Semantics aside, the point is that if someone puts paying for cable over paying for food because they can just make other people pay for their food...how is that not fucked up?

Would you be in favor of a cable stamp program? Probably not.

[Gelston]

None of it is.

So, you need cable TV to sustain your life?

See Ladies and Gents? This is why the world hates us Americans.

Building on that, when I was in Afghanistan, the people there didn't have TV. They had hand-cranked radios (that we gave them). They didn't have AC. They didn't have electricity at all. So exactly why is a TV a necessity?

[Bobmuhthol]

So, you need cable TV to sustain your life?

See Ladies and Gents? This is why the world hates us Americans.What the fuck are you talking about? I'm going to just assume you misread my post, or you temporarily forgot what a negative is, or something similar that would explain why you're saying such a retarded thing.

[Jeril]

lux·u·ry
[luhk-shuh-ree, luhg-zhuh-] Show IPA noun, plural lux·u·ries, adjective
noun
1.
a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity: Gold cufflinks were a luxury not allowed for in his budget.
2.
free or habitual indulgence in or enjoyment of comforts and pleasures in addition to those necessary for a reasonable standard of well-being: a life of luxury on the French Riviera.
3.
a means of ministering to such indulgence or enjoyment: This travel plan gives you the luxury of choosing which countries you can visit.
4.
a pleasure out of the ordinary allowed to oneself: the luxury of an extra piece of the cake.
5.
a foolish or worthless form of self-indulgence: the luxury of self-pity.

[Bobmuhthol]

What is luxury then? Nothing short of a Rolls Royce?It might be relative, but a cable subscription is something that no one in this country should have to write off as a luxury. Expensive? Sure, it can be. A luxury​? Fuck no.

Semantics aside, the point is that if someone puts paying for cable over paying for food because they can just make other people pay for their food...how is that not fucked up?Yeah, I won't argue that it is senseless to forego food (or accepting the responsibility of feeding yourself) in favor of watching television. But it's not even close to a luxury.

[Methais]

It might be relative, but a cable subscription is something that no one in this country should have to write off as a luxury. Expensive? Sure, it can be. A luxury​? Fuck no.

Should it take priority over buying food?

Should people be allowed to make other people buy their food because they want to spend their money on cable instead of groceries?

Semantics isn't the point of this, which is what you seem to be focused on.

[Gelston]

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm going to just assume you misread my post, or you temporarily forgot what a negative is, or something similar that would explain why you're saying such a retarded thing.

How did I misread you post. Explain it further. You said...

What in the fuck? Televisions are luxury items in what universe? Cable is a luxury??? It costs more money to get just an internet connection from Comcast than it does to get a bundle with cable and internet. But yeah, internet is cool and cable is a luxury, all day, totally. I spend more on single meals, which I agree are unnecessary and borderline "luxurious," than I do on my monthly cable and internet bill. And I've had the same $550 TV since 2008. Luxury city.

Just so we're on the same page, the definition of luxury is not "something outside of what is necessary to sustain life."

So yes. You said they are not a luxury item.

[Gelston]

It might be relative, but a cable subscription is something that no one in this country should have to write off as a luxury. Expensive? Sure, it can be. A luxury​? Fuck no.

Hey, I grew up with no cable. I didn't die. I'm pretty sure you can survive without cable too. Not everyone grew up as a little rich entitled bitch like you did.

I made my life. I joined the military, did 9 years in the Marines, with 3 combat tours, one in Iraq and Afghanistan and another on the 13th MEU. I earned my college tuition.

[Bobmuhthol]

Dude, Gelston, not to tell you that you're making yourself look like a true fucking idiot for not being able to read, but...

As far as growing up as a "little rich entitled bitch," I have $120,000 in student loans. But sure I've had everything handed to me. Fuck off.

[Gelston]

Dude, Gelston, not to tell you that you're making yourself look like a true fucking idiot for not being able to read, but...

Hmm... Okay, then... Cable isn't a luxury then?

[Tgo01]

Luxury doesn't mean something that isn't a necessity in life? Well I learn something new everyday I guess.

[Bobmuhthol]

Hmm... Okay, then... Cable isn't a luxury then?I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Cable isn't a luxury, still, yes.

[Gelston]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Cable isn't a luxury, still, yes.

Then no, you are a spoiled little kid, unless you can explain to me how cable TV is something necessary.

[Bobmuhthol]

Then no, you are a spoiled little kid, unless you can explain to me how cable TV is something necessary.Figure out how to read. Seriously.

[Methais]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Cable isn't a luxury, still, yes.

What makes cable a necessity then?

[Gelston]

Figure out how to read. Seriously.

I knew how to read before you were born, buddy. Explain to me how Cable is a necessity.

[Bobmuhthol]

Never said cable was a necessity. Please move on.

[Tgo01]

I like how Bob redefines a word then tells everyone they can't read.

[Bobmuhthol]

Didn't redefine shit. Look up the word if you really need to.

[Gelston]

Didn't redefine shit. Look up the word if you really need to.

Hah, yes... I reread everything you said, and I apologize. You never said it was a luxury. Hey, I'm drunk.

[Methais]

If cable is neither a necessity nor a luxury, then what exactly is it?

[Gelston]

He agrees that it is a luxury.

I'll admit when I am wrong!

[Methais]

THIS JUST IN:
https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/s720x720/300260_2928601032269_1180327292_n.jpg

[Tgo01]

Didn't redefine shit. Look up the word if you really need to.

something that is considered an indulgence rather than a necessity (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/luxury?s=t)

I'm sure you're referring to these definitions:

1. indulgence in and enjoyment of rich, comfortable, and sumptuous living
a material object, service, etc., conducive to sumptuous living, usually a delicacy, elegance, or refinement of living rather than a necessity:

But it seems kind of odd to see people talking about necessities versus luxuries then say "Nuh uh! You're using the word 'luxury' wrong!"

[Bobmuhthol]

If cable is neither a necessity nor a luxury, then what exactly is it?Why is there some binary function where something is either crucial to life or absolutely extravagant? Cable is just a normal thing, like lots of other things. If you have two pairs of shoes, that shouldn't be luxurious. But you only need one pair of shoes to live. This shouldn't be such a controversial belief.

[Methais]

Why is there some binary function where something is either crucial to life or absolutely extravagant? Cable is just a normal thing, like lots of other things. If you have two pairs of shoes, that shouldn't be luxurious. But you only need one pair of shoes to live. This shouldn't be such a controversial belief.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2198270/fred-astaire-tap-dancing-o.gif

Ok let me try it this way then...

Should people who are broke as fuck put a higher priority on buying groceries, or paying for cable?

[Gelston]

Clothing = Necessity
Shelter= Necessity
Food= Necessity

Anything other than that, you can survive without. NOW! There are a few things that help you get those items, such as transportation. However, I will present this.

TV= Luxury
Gaming Systems= Luxury
Personal Internet= Luxury
Smartphone= Luxury
Steak and Lobster= Luxury

I think it is a pretty easy deal to see what is a need and what is a want. If you can survive without it, it is probably a luxury. Even money isn't a need, it is a means to reach a need.

[Bobmuhthol]

Should people who are broke as fuck put a higher priority on buying groceries, or paying for cable?Groceries. I've already said that. I just don't like the idea of labeling cable as a luxury as if people should feel guilty for having it if they aren't rich.

The threshold for a luxury is really something above a reasonable standard of living. We can hopefully all agree that a private jet is a luxury, a yacht is a luxury, a Tesla is a luxury. I don't think anything that costs a few hundred dollars, especially something that lasts for many years, is universally a luxury. What the hell else should people be spending their money on after they've fed, clothed, and sheltered themselves? Everything beyond that surely cannot be luxurious.

[Methais]

[/COLOR]Groceries. I've already said that. I just don't like the idea of labeling cable as a luxury as if people should feel guilty for having it if they aren't rich.

People should feel guilty for having it if they're making other people pay for their groceries.

[Gelston]

[/COLOR]Groceries. I've already said that. I just don't like the idea of labeling cable as a luxury as if people should feel guilty for having it if they aren't rich.

It is a luxury, but even poor people need luxuries. If you only ever bought things you needed to survive and nothing else life wouldn't be worth living.

I grew up eating beans and hot dogs, living in Government subsidized apartments. My mother drew foodstamps at a time. They'd get us food and my mom would have a little left over so we'd get a few movies from blockbuster each month. Well, cable was 30 bucks a month back then. Eventually she made more money and we got off foodstamps and we got cable. Still in the Government Subsidized, but we had to pay rent after she made over a certain amount.

[Bobmuhthol]

People should feel guilty for having it if they're making other people pay for their groceries.Okay, conditionally, yes. Please don't make me feel guilty for spending $70/mo on cable and internet.

[Methais]

Okay, conditionally, yes. Please don't make me feel guilty for spending $70/mo on cable and internet.

I'm pretty sure you're not making other people pay for your groceries, so there's no need for you to feel guilty, regardless of what your cable and internet costs.

[Gelston]

Okay, conditionally, yes. Please don't make me feel guilty for spending $70/mo on cable and internet.

Are you living off Government welfare?

[Bobmuhthol]

No, I'm not. I didn't even really read this thread. I just saw people calling cable a luxury, and I disagree (and as established, I don't think it's necessary to live either).

[Methais]

No, I'm not. I didn't even really read this thread. I just saw people calling cable a luxury, and I disagree (and as established, I don't think it's necessary to live either).

http://cdn.meme.li/i/otk94.jpg

[Back]

Internet should be free. Just like radio and television broadcasts, and books at libarries. Yo.

[Tgo01]

Internet should be free. Just like radio and television broadcasts, and books at libarries. Yo.

It's actually not a bad idea. Some cities have free wifi throughout most of the city limits.

At the very least internet should be cheap.

[Back]

It's actually not a bad idea. Some cities have free wifi throughout most of the city limits.

At the very least internet should be cheap.

Internet is already free at libraries. And Starbucks. And my place. ;)

[Thondalar]

Internet should be free. Just like radio and television broadcasts, and books at libarries. Yo.

Radio and Television are "free" because they're interrupted at regular intervals for commercials. You want this in your internet access? Not talking about sidebars....I'm talking about whatever it is you're gaming or streaming, 3-4 minute fun pause while you sit through a Geico commercial for the 140th time.

[Thondalar]

No, I'm not. I didn't even really read this thread. I just saw people calling cable a luxury, and I disagree (and as established, I don't think it's necessary to live either).

By it's definition, and apparently your own, it is a luxury.

Words mean things. For the most part, their meaning was established and accepted long before you and I were born.

[Back]

Radio and Television are "free" because they're interrupted at regular intervals for commercials. You want this in your internet access? Not talking about sidebars....I'm talking about whatever it is you're gaming or streaming, 3-4 minute fun pause while you sit through a Geico commercial for the 140th time.

Dude, tell me how to watch a Youtube video without having to skip the ad or click the box of the ad at the bottom and I'll call you a genius.

[Back]

This is where modern contemporary artist Banksy is spot on...

https://upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com/nugget/519c5300f2c5d9000f01ed83/attachments/banksy_nugget.jpg

[Latrinsorm]

Hey, I grew up with no cable. I didn't die.Source???
Words mean things. For the most part, their meaning was established and accepted long before you and I were born.In light of your comments on Islam, this is hard to take seriously.

[Thondalar]

This is where modern contemporary artist Banksy is spot on...

https://upworthy-production.s3.amazonaws.com/nugget/519c5300f2c5d9000f01ed83/attachments/banksy_nugget.jpg

The fact you post this means (I hope) that you believe in it. If so, there is hope for even Back...never thought I'd say that...but, if you do, please click on this, since we've established I completely fail at posting anything besides thumbnails. (PB tried to teach me once, but I failed)

5727

[Thondalar]

In light of your comments on Islam, this is hard to take seriously.

Which, exactly?

[Jeril]

Pretty sure those playbooks aren't put into copyright/trademark or what have because if they were they'd be a lot easier to steal then they currently are.

[Thondalar]

Pretty sure those playbooks aren't put into copyright/trademark or what have because if they were they'd be a lot easier to steal then they currently are.

Except then it would be illegal to steal them.

[Jeril]

Except then it would be illegal to steal them.

If only it would be so cut and dry as all that.

[Thondalar]

If only it would be so cut and dry as all that.

How is it not?

[Jeril]

How is it not?

Copyright laws are about sale, distribution, and intellectual rights. There isn't anything in them that says you can't do something like use that information against an opposing football team. Kind of like how you aren't going to see major companies copyright things or the government, they want that information secret.

[Latrinsorm]

Which, exactly?You have no qualms declaring a definition for a 1300+ year old religion that the very proponents of that religion vehemently disagree with.

[~Rocktar~]

YAY, to try and get back on track and not start a new thread:

Today a Judge ruled that Detroit is eligable for bankruptcy protection. Moments after the ruling, the largest union, AFSCME filed a notice of appeal, big suprise there.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101242616

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/insolvent-detroit-can-proceed-bankruptcy-judge-rules-2D11687462?ocid=msnhp&pos=1

[Jarvan]

YAY, to try and get back on track and not start a new thread:

Today a Judge ruled that Detroit is eligable for bankruptcy protection. Moments after the ruling, the largest union, AFSCME filed a notice of appeal, big suprise there.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101242616

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/insolvent-detroit-can-proceed-bankruptcy-judge-rules-2D11687462?ocid=msnhp&pos=1

Somehow I just know it's going to be considered all the Republican's fault.

[~Rocktar~]

Somehow I just know it's going to be considered all the Republican's fault.

Because Bush did it.

[NinjasLeadTheWay]

5945

[Methais]

YAY, to try and get back on track and not start a new thread:

Today a Judge ruled that Detroit is eligable for bankruptcy protection. Moments after the ruling, the largest union, AFSCME filed a notice of appeal, big suprise there.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101242616

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/insolvent-detroit-can-proceed-bankruptcy-judge-rules-2D11687462?ocid=msnhp&pos=1


http://youtu.be/_3mw49mk_x0

[ClydeR]

The first thing the judge should do is sell all the art and use the money to pay debts. If this were some bankrupt person with a valuable art collection, nobody would think twice about forcing a sale of the art.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/detroit-institute-of-arts-issues-response-to-decision-detroit-is-eligible-for-chapter-9-bankruptcy

[cwolff]

The first thing the judge should do is sell all the art and use the money to pay debts. If this were some bankrupt person with a valuable art collection, nobody would think twice about forcing a sale of the art.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/detroit-institute-of-arts-issues-response-to-decision-detroit-is-eligible-for-chapter-9-bankruptcy

Can they sell the art? It was donated with specific caveats about it's future or it wouldn't have been donated in the first place.

[ClydeR]

Can they sell the art? It was donated with specific caveats about it's future or it wouldn't have been donated in the first place.

You bet your sweet Cezanne they can. And they should.

[Gelston]

If it was donated for a specific reason, as cwolff said, no they can't. A lot of the art may be loaned anyways.

[Atlanteax]

HIP HIP HOORAY ... THE UAW IS *DYING* !!!

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2014/04/24/uaw-chattanooga/?iid=HP_LN


FORTUNE -- The downward spiral of the United Auto Workers union gained new momentum this week with the decision to withdraw its petition for a do-over of its disputed election defeat at the Volkswagen AG plant in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

By pulling back, the UAW acknowledged that its best hope of organizing foreign automakers in the southern U.S. was stalled, and perhaps halted. By expanding through the Sunbelt without the union, foreign automakers have undermined the structure of higher wages and more generous benefits the UAW has tried to impose on the Detroit-based industry.

VW workers voted in mid-February 712-626 against allowing the UAW to represent them. The UAW accused prominent Tennessee politicians of interfering with the election by saying they would oppose further government subsidies for the plant if it was organized.

UAW = *perfect case study* in why Unions are *BAD*

Just look at the UAW, and multiply the negative impacts/effects by ten-fold, and that is what public employee unions do.

Editted to add:

The once powerful union, which has lost two-thirds of its membership since the late 1970s,
So there still is hope for Detroit!!