Tim Tebow Bill Dies in Virginia

[ClydeR]

Legislation to let home schooled students join public school sports teams was defeated Thursday in the Senate Education and Health Committee, where similar bills have failed in previous years.

More... (http://blogs.roanoke.com/politics/2013/02/14/tim-tebow-home-school-sports-bill-sacked-in-va-senate/)


When addressing the committee, his father Steve Henderson explained that he and his wife educated the two youngest of their six boys at home because it was the best choice for them, not a knock against public schools.

He made the case that parents and students contribute to the state and thus shouldn’t be denied access to services.

“We pay our taxes, too,” the elder Henderson said. “There’s no difficulty in taking our money.”

“You pay taxes that also go to purchase an F-22 fighter, that doesn’t mean you get to fly it,” fired back Senate Minority Leader Richard Saslaw.


He has argued 29 other states already allow home schoolers to join public school teams and said his bill would give local school divisions that option.

This is unfair to home schooled kids. Just because you don't attend a particular school doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to play sports at that school.


Why is it called the Tebow bill, you ask?


The legislation is nicknamed for NFL quarterback Tim Tebow, who as a home-schooler in Florida played football for his local high school team. HB 1442 would have allowed home-schoolers in Virginia to do the same.

More... (http://manassaspark.patch.com/articles/tebow-bill-dies-in-virginia-senate-committee)

[Gelston]

Damn you, I thought Tim Tebow actually died and that this thread would be interesting.

[WRoss]

Damn you, I thought Tim Tebow actually died and that this thread would be interesting.

They'd rename Fox and ESPN to the Tebow Network.

[Tgo01]

“You pay taxes that also go to purchase an F-22 fighter, that doesn’t mean you get to fly it,” fired back Senate Minority Leader Richard Saslaw.

What a stupid thing to say. Kind of sad it's coming from a state Senator.

[Androidpk]

What a stupid thing to say. Kind of sad it's coming from a state Senator.

I see his point. Sure you may pay taxes that support the public school but if you want to play on that sports team you should actually ATTEND the school as well. If you want to fly that F/A-22 Raptor that your taxes support then go ahead and join the Air Force.

[Tgo01]

I see his point. Sure you may pay taxes that support the public school but if you want to play on that sports team you should actually ATTEND the school as well. If you want to fly that F/A-22 Raptor that your taxes support then go ahead and join the Air Force.

I just don't see why that should be a requirement. I can understand not letting anyone picking and choosing any school in the US they want to play sports in, obviously it should be limited to the school you would go to if you did attend school. But we pay property taxes and other taxes for the exact purpose of allowing kids in the district to take advantage of the education and extra curricular activities the schools provide. We don't pay taxes thinking we actually get to fly a military jet just because we paid taxes. Well, not most people.

[Gelston]

If my taxes equaled the cost of 1 F-22, you better be damn sure I'd expect to fly it.

Don't most schools get allotted monies proportional to the amount of students enrolled though? I'm sure it varies from place to place.

[Androidpk]

I'm going to have to disagree with that. If you want to join the sports team then join the school too just like everyone else. If you want to opt out from attending then no, you shouldn't be able to participate in school events.

If everything goes well for my younger bro he'll be flying a raptor later this year.

[Gelston]

I'm going to have to disagree with that. If you want to join the sports team then join the school too just like everyone else. If you want to opt out from attending then no, you shouldn't be able to participate in school events.

If I had a wife that popped out like 30 kids all at once, you better be damn sure that if I home school them all that I should be able to create a sport team and participate against public schools.

[Androidpk]

I found your wife.

http://i49.tinypic.com/2iix308.jpg

[Gelston]

nomnomnom

[diethx]

Jesus tittyfucking christ.

[TheEschaton]

Homeschooling is a choice you make as a parent to opt out of the school system. The school isn't forcing you to homeschool your kids. If you want them to play football for that high school, they should attend the school.

Taxes to support schools are community wide, people without kids have to pay them, people with kids who they homeschool have to pay them. It's not an entitlement to the school. I don't get to ride around the fire truck spraying pretty girls with a hose because I pay my taxes.

[WRoss]

I don't get to ride around the fire truck spraying pretty girls with a hose because I pay my taxes.

Tell that to the Mississippians during the Civil Rights Movement.

[Androidpk]

Hehe, I was going to say.. I'm not sure why you would want to spray pretty girls with a high powered fire hose. Unless there is a euphemism that I'm missing.

[WRoss]

I was about to say that I had a new thing I wanted to add to my bucket list, but I realized that since I'm white, I can't talk about spraying people with fire hoses without being branded a racist fascist.

[Parkbandit]

Homeschooling is a choice you make as a parent to opt out of the school system. The school isn't forcing you to homeschool your kids. If you want them to play football for that high school, they should attend the school.

Taxes to support schools are community wide, people without kids have to pay them, people with kids who they homeschool have to pay them. It's not an entitlement to the school. I don't get to ride around the fire truck spraying pretty girls with a hose because I pay my taxes.

I feel the need to call 9-1-1.. I must be having a stroke.

Because I agree with The E...

[diethx]

He meant his hose, I'm sure. He just doesn't get to do it in a fire truck because he pays taxes.

[Kastrel]

I was about to say that I had a new thing I wanted to add to my bucket list, but I realized that since I'm white, I can't talk about spraying people with fire hoses without being branded a racist fascist.

You could fire-hose KKKs. That would probably get you anti-racist cred, and would also be hilarious. Imagine the hoods, the slipping . . . god, set it to Yakety Sax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ) and you have comedic gold.

[TheEschaton]

I was just thinking wet t-shirts on pretty girls being a thing I wanted to do with a fire hose. But now I can see the negative implications.

BUT I'M A BROWN MAN, AND THAT'S OKAY. /lumberjack tune

[WRoss]

You could fire-hose KKKs. That would probably get you anti-racist cred, and would also be hilarious. Imagine the hoods, the slipping . . . god, set it to Yakety Sax (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHmskwqCCQ) and you have comedic gold.

I'd rather put them on a cross, put it in their yard, and light it on fire. Ohh, the irony. Unless it was the KKK from Reno 911 or Chapelle's show. Those guys were cool.

[Tgo01]

Homeschooling is a choice you make as a parent to opt out of the school system.

You're opting out of the school system teaching your child, you're not opting out of your child being a part of the community.

I guess I just don't understand the rationale of denying someone the right to play on school sports teams. Should home schooled children also be denied joining any groups or clubs at the school?

[Keller]

I feel the need to call 9-1-1.. I must be having a stroke.

Because I agree with The E...

To put your mind at ease, I disagree with you and TheE.

Schools are public goods that are paid for with public funds and should be available to the public, with carve outs for the safety of our children.

As someone who makes TONS of fun of home schooled children and their parents, I feel a little icky arguing that they should be allowed to play on public school sports teams, but that's my view.

[Gelston]

You're opting out of the school system teaching your child, you're not opting out of your child being a part of the community.

I guess I just don't understand the rationale of denying someone the right to play on school sports teams. Should home schooled children also be denied joining any groups or clubs at the school?

Well, you kind of ARE opting them out of the community by homeschooling them. There are still many other clubs and sporting activities other than school ones though. I used to play baseball for a Little League which had nothing to do with my school. There is also Boy Scouts and a plethora of other things.

[Tgo01]

Well, you kind of ARE opting them out of the community by homeschooling them.

I don't know about that...



There are still many other clubs and sporting activities other than school ones though. I used to play baseball for a Little League which had nothing to do with my school. There is also Boy Scouts and a plethora of other things.

True. As I said though I just don't see the point in basically discriminating against someone because they are home schooled. I'm willing to bet none of the organizations you are referring to tell would tell a child they can't join because they are home schooled (unless they were gay.) Even if they did they are private organizations and should be free to make those decisions.

[Gelston]

I don't know about that...


I'm saying that growing up around your peers is a big part of... Growing up. Socialization from the earliest is fairly important. Not going through that kind of leaves the kid a bit detached, and occasionally in awkward social situations, especially when they go to college or the like.

I'm not saying homeschooling is bad, but there is a loss of community.

[Androidpk]

I don't see it as them being discriminated against. There was a choice made and the choice was not to send them to the public school along with everyone else. Say the school holds a special field trip or function for the students because they've been working hard all year long. Should home school kids be allowed to attend just because they want to enjoy those benefits without having to partake in the work?

[Tgo01]

I'm saying that growing up around your peers is a big part of... Growing up. Socialization from the earliest is fairly important. Not going through that kind of leaves the kid a bit detached, and occasionally in awkward social situations, especially when they go to college or the like.

I agree. Getting to socialize with kids your age is good for you. Which is why schools shouldn't be denying home schooled kids from joining sports teams or joining clubs.


Say the school holds a special field trip or function for the students because they've been working hard all year long. Should home school kids be allowed to attend just because they want to enjoy those benefits without having to partake in the work?

That's implying home schooled kids don't work as hard as kids in public schools.

[Kembal]

The issue is football, right? Every other team sport I can think of has club sports which most serious athletes at the high school level compete in along with their school team.

Personally, I'm ok with it if the parent is willing to pay the costs for the school to have the homeschooled student on the team. The school is getting nothing from the state or the federal government for that student because he/she wouldn't be enrolled. EDIT: And unless I'm mistaken, the school district wouldn't have allocated any funds to the school either. District allocations are based on enrollment.

[Gelston]

I agree. Getting to socialize with kids your age is good for you. Which is why schools shouldn't be denying home schooled kids from joining sports teams or joining clubs.



My idea would be to actually deschoolatize (new word) it all and put it under the city/township/district/whatever directly. I have ideas for such a thing, but I think it would bore all of you so I'm not going to go into it.

[Whirlin]

Well, there's a factor that I don't think have been brought up yet... Typically Sport teams that are run by the schools are restricted to the guidelines set by the regional sports commissions, which set guidelines on appropriate ages, academic requirements, and other factors to participate in their competitions. The courts have defined the participation in interscholastic to be a privilege, not a right.:
Source:
http://upload.athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=2061&zoneid=32

Individuals that do not readily participate in the public school systems could jeopardize the school's eligibility under county, regional, state, or national levels. Additionally, many schools set up internal guidelines for the eligibility for their sports curriculum. Found the following after a quick googling:
http://southmadison.in.schoolwebpages.com/education/components/sectionlist/default.php?sectiondetailid=112

One could argue that a home-schooled individual is not held to the same rigor as a public school student, as there is no concrete GPA to base eligibility upon, and no manner of oversight into standardized test scores, or behavior that could influence other athlete's performance.

[Whirlin]

My idea would be to actually deschoolatize (new word) it all and put it under the city/township/district/whatever directly. I have ideas for such a thing, but I think it would bore all of you so I'm not going to go into it.

I thought this was commonly done for pre-high school level sports.

Allowing a full independent organization outside of the schools could cause internal competition for an individual athlete who may be on the fence between a few local sports clubs chapters teams (if that's the right term to use). I think you'd have a natural gravitation of high caliber people towards a single team, which would could skew competition greatly.

[Gelston]

Well, there's a factor that I don't think have been brought up yet... Typically Sport teams that are run by the schools are restricted to the guidelines set by the regional sports commissions, which set guidelines on appropriate ages, academic requirements, and other factors to participate in their competitions. The courts have defined the participation in interscholastic to be a privilege, not a right.:
Source:
http://upload.athleticbusiness.com/articles/article.aspx?articleid=2061&zoneid=32

Individuals that do not readily participate in the public school systems could jeopardize the school's eligibility under county, regional, state, or national levels. Additionally, many schools set up internal guidelines for the eligibility for their sports curriculum. Found the following after a quick googling:
http://southmadison.in.schoolwebpages.com/education/components/sectionlist/default.php?sectiondetailid=112

One could argue that a home-schooled individual is not held to the same rigor as a public school student, as there is no concrete GPA to base eligibility upon, and no manner of oversight into standardized test scores, or behavior that could influence other athlete's performance.

True enough. Good point.

[Gelston]

I thought this was commonly done for pre-high school level sports.

Allowing a full independent organization outside of the schools could cause internal competition for an individual athlete who may be on the fence between a few local sports clubs chapters teams (if that's the right term to use). I think you'd have a natural gravitation of high caliber people towards a single team, which would could skew competition greatly.

Mmm.. It isn't done that way here (we have middle school teams.) There is already competition, however, with private schools even luring kids out of public schools with scholarships. This would remove that that facet atleast, although, I daresay, zoning woul serve the same to see what sports team you are affiliated with the same way it decides what school you go to, with perhaps in cases of smaller schools having combined districts.

[Tgo01]

I don't think home schooled children should get special treatment, they should have to take any tests or whatever other requirements the school set forth. I just don't think they should be flat out denied.

[Merala]

This has been mentioned, but school funds in most states are allocated by the enrolled students. If you have a student who is not enrolled in the school on the school sports team those expenses would have to come from monies allocated to the enrolled students on the team. That's not to say that's not easy to fix. Legislation could easily be written to allow students who are homeschooled to join programs set up by the individual schools by allowing individual schools to receive monies based on the homeschooled children that participate in said programs. That is it would be a partial payment for the homeschooled student to participate in programs, but not payments for the attendance and instruction of classes. This would cause some other issues that would need to be addressed, however.

[Whirlin]

I don't think home schooled children should get special treatment, they should have to take any tests or whatever other requirements the school set forth. I just don't think they should be flat out denied.

But, the requirements aren't as straight forward.
Detentions for acting out could impact a player's eligibility... How could we objectively apply that level of scrutiny of actions to someone at their home with his/her parent?
If we give the child all the same tests as all the other students in his grade are taking, is he really home schooled at that point?
Do we randomly stop at the kid's house to give them pop quizes on today's class contents, because that's what just happened in today's Physics class (clearly out of high school personally, but just an example)? If we deliver them to the house, is that not inherently special treatment?

There are just a few too many factors that could influence individual eligibility to easily be applied to children outside of the physical monitored location, and if we facilitate the exporting of such school based activities, isn't that inherently offering special treatment?

[Androidpk]

I agree. Getting to socialize with kids your age is good for you. Which is why schools shouldn't be denying home schooled kids from joining sports teams or joining clubs.



That's implying home schooled kids don't work as hard as kids in public schools.


No, it's not implying that at all. The point is that the people that are active within in the school are being treated for the work they did. If you don't want to be a part of the school community then no, you shouldn't be able to participate.

Public works is holding a special BBQ and concert for their workers because of their achievements. Well, my tax dollars help fund that place and I'm a hard worker myself so I deserve a place in their party because I'm a special butterfly!

[Tgo01]

Detentions for acting out could impact a player's eligibility... How could we objectively apply that level of scrutiny of actions to someone at their home with his/her parent?

Criminal records. Seriously I don't know, not being able to monitor whether or not they act out while being home schooled seems like a silly reason to deny someone from joining the team.


If we give the child all the same tests as all the other students in his grade are taking, is he really home schooled at that point?
Do we randomly stop at the kid's house to give them pop quizes on today's class contents, because that's what just happened in today's Physics class (clearly out of high school personally, but just an example)? If we deliver them to the house, is that not inherently special treatment?

I think a lot of states already require home schooled children to take standardized tests. I think most (probably all) states require some form of intervention from the school district to ensure the child is receiving a proper education. I don't think a child is ever really 100% cutoff from the school system if they are home schooled. I don't think home schooled children should have to take each and every single quiz that a student in public school takes but proving they know the subject matter doesn't seem totally out of the question, and I'm sure they already have to prove that.

[Latrinsorm]

There is already competition, however, with private schools even luring kids out of public schools with scholarships.I was thinking about this as I read the thread, what if a kid at a private school wants to join a public school team, or a kid at one public school wants to join a different public school's team? What if they want to marry dogs!?!? I went to a private school myself, and it's an interesting theoretical to me. We had a pretty lousy basketball team, I could see a good basketball player wanting to be in a more competitive environment, but then would we have even had a basketball team anymore? Is that good, bad, or indifferent?
How could we objectively apply that level of scrutiny of actions to someone at their home with his/her parent?Universal surveillance! It solves all our problems!

[Gelston]

I was thinking about this as I read the thread, what if a kid at a private school wants to join a public school team, or a kid at one public school wants to join a different public school's team? What if they want to marry dogs!?!? I went to a private school myself, and it's an interesting theoretical to me. We had a pretty lousy basketball team, I could see a good basketball player wanting to be in a more competitive environment, but then would we have even had a basketball team anymore? Is that good, bad, or indifferent?

I know over here they wouldn't allow it, because we competed with private schools in pretty much every sport we had.. Football, Basketball, Soccer, Tennis, Archery, etc. They only seemed to care about football, getting both Josh and John Booty from my Public High School, but while I was in HS they basically dominated the High School circuit in my area. (They got pwned by some public Texas HS teams though.)

I went off point though. Yes. If you don't go to the school, you shouldn't play for the school's team.

[Ryku]

God I hate whiners. Boo hoo I want what you have, I pay taxes too. I want I want I want GO FUCK YOURSELF!

[Tisket]

God I hate whiners. Boo hoo I want what you have, I pay taxes too. I want I want I want GO FUCK YOURSELF!

Oh quit your whining.

[Tisket]

I feel the need to call 9-1-1.. I must be having a stroke.

Because I agree with The E...

Don't feel bad. After all, it took ten years.

[Ryku]

Oh quit your whining.

I see what you did there!

[dszabo]

The whole thread is tl:dr but a goodly portion of a schools funding is based off of their student population. If you choose to not enroll your child on said school, that school is not goin to be receiving any federal funds for your child. Why should the school have to foot the bill for your child to play sports there?

[Latrinsorm]

Let's say that happens, school says it needs more money, local taxes go up. Who is this situation unfair to (if either), that all the other parents have to fund my one kid's foot-the-ball, or that I have to fund all their kids' book learning? It still seems like the home schoolers are getting the short end of the funding angle, or should I say... the acute end? Eh???

[Gelston]

Not really. It is the parent's choice to home school rather than public school. If they feel that they are getting the short end of the stick, they should send them to public school. you can go into how unfair paying taxes for certain things is all day. There are a lot of things tax dollars go to pay for that people don't agree with or see as a waste.

[Latrinsorm]

It is a choice, but my point was more about "why should I fund your kid doing something" being made by non home schoolers. If I agree to pay for your kid, why would you refuse to pay significantly less for mine?

[ClydeR]

Well, there's a factor that I don't think have been brought up yet... Typically Sport teams that are run by the schools are restricted to the guidelines set by the regional sports commissions, which set guidelines on appropriate ages, academic requirements, and other factors to participate in their competitions.

That's specifically what the bill would have addressed. It would have forbidden schools from joining any regional sports commissions with such rules.

[Valthissa]

living in Virginia, I've seen this issue come up several times. The current legislation attempted to answer many of the points raised here:

1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding in Chapter 1 of Title 22.1 a section numbered 22.1-7.2 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+cod+22.1-7.2) as follows:
§ 22.1-7.2 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+cod+22.1-7.2). Organizations governing public school interscholastic programs; participation by students receiving home instruction.
A. No public school shall become a member of any organization or entity whose purpose is to regulate or govern interscholastic programs that does not deem eligible for participation a student who (i) is receiving home instruction pursuant to § 22.1-254.1 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+cod+22.1-254.1); (ii) has demonstrated evidence of progress in compliance with subsection C of § 22.1-254.1 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+cod+22.1-254.1) for at least two consecutive academic years immediately preceding the academic year during which the student seeks to participate; (iii) is in compliance with the immunization requirements set forth in § 22.1-271.4 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+cod+22.1-271.4); (iv) is entitled to free tuition in a public school pursuant to § 22.1-3 (http://forum.gsplayers.com/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?000+cod+22.1-3); (v) has not reached the age of 19 by August 1 of the current academic year; (vi) is an amateur who receives no compensation but participates solely for the educational, physical, mental, and social benefits of the activity; (vii) complies with all disciplinary rules and is subject to all codes of conduct applicable to all public high school athletes; and (viii) complies with all other rules governing awards, all-star games, maximum consecutive semesters of high school enrollment, parental consents, physical examinations, and transfers applicable to all high school athletes. Eligibility of a student receiving home instruction shall be limited to participation in interscholastic programs at the school serving the attendance zone in which the student lives and shall be subject to all policies governing such participation that the local school board may establish.
B. Reasonable fees may be charged to students receiving home instruction to cover the costs of participation in such interscholastic programs, including the costs of additional insurance, uniforms, or equipment.

So they impose academic standards, immunization standards, require the student to live in the district in which they compete and allow the school to charge a fee.

I don't see the schools side in this, but the law was defeated.

Contrast this with the rule where I live (James-City County). A student can pay extra to attend a school different from where they are zoned in order to play sports. I do not know for certain, but I don't think you can pay extra to attend a different school for academic reasons.

C