Lisu Log [Archive] - Page 2 - The Gemstone IV Players' Corner

Bestatte

08-23-2003, 01:17 AM

The entire arguement is a moot point. The Simutronics/GemstoneIII policy states, very clearly, in big bold all capital letters:

USER MUST BE AT LEAST 18 YEARS OF AGE.

User. Not account holder, not the mom who's paying her son's credit card bills, not aunt Sue, not your husband or your sister or your buddy's babysitter. USER.

If you are NOT at least 18 years of age, technically you're not even supposed to be playing the game at all, because playing GemStoneIII is one of the USES of your account as defined by the policy.

This is a caveat included in the policies to hold harmless Simutronics from any issues regarding this exact sort of thing. They warned you that you're not supposed to play, even though the "Letter to Parents" encourages it. It's a catch-all that keeps them from getting in trouble.

It would also keep an adult out of trouble if Sonny-boy forgot to mention to Lisu that he is, indeed, only 14 years old. Why? Because Lisu would point to the policy and say, in all honest sincerety:

"The policy of the game, that every user agrees to, requires that the user be at least 18 years of age. I had no reason to question his age, because I had the right to assume that he was obeying the policy as set forth by Simutronics. If you have an issue with that, take it up with Simu, because it's THEIR policy that was violated, not this child."

Scott

08-23-2003, 01:19 AM

<< If you can't figure out who they are then you need to grow up. >>

Take Zentoph for example. He's 15. He could have passed off as a lot older in my books. Hell, he has better grammar/spelling then a lot of 20-30 year olds. If he hadn't had told me, I definately would have assumed he was much older then he was. It is VERY tough to figure out how old a person is, which is why with a game with so many younger players, I believe that Lisu's so called roleplaying needs to go.

Scott

08-23-2003, 01:26 AM

Back

08-23-2003, 01:34 AM

<User must be 18>

That is under "ACCOUNT INFORMATION." Gemstone encourages younger players. Read "a letter to the parents." Nowhere does it state that the player of the account has to be 18. The account owner must be 18 because you have to be 18 to legally sign a contract.

Which brings us back to the responsibility of the adult with the account.

<< If you can't figure out who they are then you need to grow up. >>

Take Zentoph for example. He's 15. He could have passed off as a lot older in my books. Hell, he has better grammar/spelling then a lot of 20-30 year olds. If he hadn't had told me, I definately would have assumed he was much older then he was. It is VERY tough to figure out how old a person is, which is why with a game with so many younger players, I believe that Lisu's so called roleplaying needs to go.

Ok, I used rough language, but I stand on it. I don't find it difficult to figure out who is what age or gender beyond personal questions.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 01:36 AM

We can point to policy and say what we wish. In the case of this particular policy, it is written with the express purpose of saving Simutronics from lawsuits filed by the parents of children who have been victimized by predatory adults, and/or from lawsuits filed because any other portion of the game (read violence) is seen to have put a child in emotional jeopardy. Does that excuse us, as adults, for the harm we might do? Perhaps it excuses you. It does not excuse me. I am not Simutronics. I am a thinking, feeling adult. Policy cannot free me from guilt I bring upon myself by actions taken without proper forethought.

If there were a way to ensure that all persons with whom Lisu, and others who indulge in cybersex, become involved were of legal age to consent, the entire discussion here would be moot. However, no such guarantee can be made. Therefore, it is my opinion that to advertise sexual services on the amunet, knowing that children are listening and are likely to be curious enough to engage such an encounter, is irresponsible in the extreme.

I, for one, am not overly fond of some of the death messaging, either. I find it offensive. However, I don't believe there is the level of immersion and emotional involvement in slaughtering critters (or other players, for that matter, since permadeath is not part of GemStone3) that a young, inexperienced player would invest in a sexual encounter, fantasy or not. The fact that these kids should not be here is incidental. They are here, and it is often excruciatingly difficult to determine who is and is not underage.

Perhaps someone can answer a question that occurs to me. How many adults would actually be drawn to pay such an exhorbitant amount of silvers for what Lisu is offering? I'd think her services would be most likely to draw the very young, but perhaps I'm wrong.

HarmNone

Back

08-23-2003, 01:41 AM

Perhaps someone can answer a question that occurs to me. How many adults would actually be drawn to pay such an exhorbitant amount of silvers for what Lisu is offering? I'd think her services would be most likely to draw the very young, but perhaps I'm wrong.

I'd think they would be very rich.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Backlash
I absolutely disagree. Simply because there are adults who play also. Adults should be able to do what they want with other consenting adults...

And notice the double standard here? I'm amazed. Ladies, we need your input. As a man, I can only speak from my somewhat unique point of view here. I'd love to hear more on what the women think about all this.

After thoroughly analyzing the equipment with which I was born, I have determined I am female, if not a lady. ;)

I believe we are in agreement that adults should be able to do what they wish with other, consenting, adults. The problem is, you cannot be sure in every case that the "adult" you are "doing" is, in fact, over eighteen. If you believe you can, you are kidding yourself.

I know I would be more than disconcerted, and probably heartbroken and disgusted, if I became involved in cybersex with a child. For that reason, I choose not to take that risk. If cybersex is interesting to you, as an adult, there are better places to indulge that particular interest than in GemStone3.

HarmNone

Back

08-23-2003, 01:52 AM

I believe we are in agreement that adults should be able to do what they wish with other, consenting, adults. The problem is, you cannot be sure in every case that the "adult" you are "doing" is, in fact, over eighteen. If you believe you can, you are kidding yourself.

So what are you doing later? ;)

Adhara

08-23-2003, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Backlash
[quote]<<If you can't figure out who they are then you need to grow up.>>

Yikes. I was tempted to jump into the conversation until I read this. I don't feel it is worth my time anymore.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 01:54 AM

I'm going to Disney World! :D

HarmNone, giggling

Back

08-23-2003, 01:58 AM

I'm going to Disney World!

HarmNone, giggling

HarmNone! Giggling! Wow...

Frog ride is the hook-up. That is, if you are tall enough to get in!

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Backlash]

Betheny

08-23-2003, 02:12 AM

I think cybersex is, and should be, taboo in Gemstone.

I think if you're going to do it, you should keep it private.

I think everything Lisu's done is okay for the most part. I'm sorry to have to say, though, that the use of THE ONLY in-character mass media (the amulet) source as an advertisement for PROSTITUTION (Read: Sex for financial or material GAIN) is WRONG.

You can get in trouble for ALLUDING to sex in Gemstone. I know -- It's happened to me. I've gotten numerous SENDS telling me to lighten up or change the subject.

That's EXACTLY what she's doing. She's not saying it straight out, but she IS saying it. That, IMHO, is WRONG.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 02:31 AM

Aww, Backlash. I giggle from time to time, just to ensure I can. ;) Oh, and I shall bring a stepping stool for the frog ride!

HarmNone, giddyup, froggie

Kyle

08-23-2003, 02:33 AM

Wow. There's too many morals in this thread for me. Why should it matter to you if a 13 year old somewhere is having cybersex? Most likely, if they are 13, they're going to have a very immature style, be incredibly slow and have absolutely no clue how to be creative, and thus, they're most likely AREN'T going to be doing it with Lisu or any other self-respecting 'decent' cyberer.

This leaves other 13 year olds. Are you going to protect your children from being curious? From teaching themselves and understanding sexuality? I would rather have my kids, if and when I have them, to be fumbling around on keyboards and not in real life. You can't get an STD from GS or a chatroom.

God won't smite your kids down for masturbation, and he sure won't do it for trying something new. Sexuality is about pleasure, it's just a different sort of pleasure from everything else in our lives. Killing some evil-doer in a videogame is pleasurable, eating cake is pleasurable, being in good company is pleasurable. Sex, cybersex included, and all of the domains within it (foreplay and the like) is nothing but another pleasure, just a more private one. It shouldn't be feared.

Why are we letting soccer moms and preachers decide what's right and wrong in our society?

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 02:56 AM

<< Why are we letting soccer moms and preachers decide what's right and wrong in our society? >>

So that they don't go to jail.

It's illegal for adults to play sex with kids.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Kranar]

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 03:13 AM

Hey! I lost Kyle's respect because he didn't like my criticisms of Lisu's post! Go me! :bouncy:

You know, you post a log about an interaction between two people, you open the door for criticism, both good and bad. Yes, I thought her choice of words for many things were cheesy. Sue me. If she had the right to post a log of her interaction with someone else, I have the right to say it was ridiculously worded. I've done it for other logs, I don't see how this is any different. Because it's sexual in nature? If she treats it like hunting than it's not so sacred of an act anymore. If she can't take criticism for her word usage, then she's not a real writer. Besides I do believe that's all I judged her on... her performance and word usage, and I have seen better. She's good, but not great, and no, it was not worth 3 million silvers. There have been plenty of people in the past and present that have made themselves "available" for companionship and have done it for free. So yes, once you bring silvers into the equation (and a pretty healthy sum at that) it better be damned good.

And no, I'm not going to post logs of my own cybersex adventures because I don't think that's anyone's business except my own. I don't want it opened up for criticism because it involves no one else and I am not looking for anyone's opinion about me or my partner at the time. I'm not jealous of her (that's funny that it even came up as an option) or feel that I'm better than her. Why because I didn't like how she phrased something? Get over it. I've messed up in the game and said or done things that some people found OOC and have told me IN THE GAME through whispers that they didn't approve, and I took it in stride and considered it as advice and moved on. I did not pout and post it for the world to see.

Yes logs of other interactions have been posted here and elsewhere which included people that didn't consent to it being publicized. The difference here is that none of those other logs were done in private behind locked doors. Anyone could have walked into those incidences and witnessed it themselves. The fact that she posted a private session between two people without consent, specifically to humiliate her "customer" was a low blow (no pun intended) IMO.

Never did I say I was against her profession or what kind of business she was conducting. And quite frankly, I could really care less if she does this with a child because, in my opinion, this game has adult content. If the account holder is allowing their child to play, they need to realize that death AND sex are part of the game play at times and will and/or should be expected.

If a child willingly sought Lisu out and had cybersex with her, they knew what they were getting into. If they didn't, I'm sure they would show signs that they didn't approve or understand. If not and were intrigued, I'm sure they would ask someone what that was all about. Personally I'd rather a child be curious and question sex than violence because sex (real sex, with protection) won't take the life of another living being. Cybersex (to me) is on par with porn, strip bars, and raunchy sex novels (which I'm not going to get into again, there's already a full topic in Off Topic about this) and if that's what turns that little boy on, so be it. I'd rather he find himself and his pleasures through safe measures as those than to go out and risk catching a disease from a real pro to find that experience at a young age.

Lisu lost nothing with that exchange with Huka except an hour or two of her time. She didn't give any money of her own to perform that ritual. Being a pro, she should have known to get the money up front to ensure that her funds were secured before proceeding. Even the other merchants ask for money first or yank it out of your account because they can. No one HAS to give her anything because she's not a legitimate business or vendor. She doesn't even have any goods as proof that service was rendered (unless the customer has a stained blue dress or something). :D

I notice that my opinion is going to greatly differ from the norm, but that's just me and I'm a tad more open minded than the average Joe. I have nothing against Lisu's choice of profession, or even announcing it on the net (very gutsy by the way) but SHE needs to understand that most people aren't as understanding as me. They don't think it's something to be forthcoming about and advertise to the general public so casually. To many, sex is a private act and should be done so. I realize this is a game and a fantasy one at that, so real references don't hold water for many people, but I will say that even back in the day, courtesans did NOT advertise their services with little billboards or yell it at the top of their lungs in the courtyard. That was something was done discreetly to not offend those that were against that type of interaction. I believe that's what people are trying to convey.. to keep herself private as far as her sexual favors are concerned.

[Edited on 8/23/2003 by CrystalTears]

Lisu

08-23-2003, 05:50 AM

Okay it is time for me to speak again.

First thing I will address are these comments about me 'poaching' and killing people. In my entire gaming experience under this character I have killed two people. One was script hunting in Urgs in solhaven and was constantly skinning/searching my kills. I gave him plenty of warning and he didn't 'wake up' till the next day after he had departed. The other was Wichurana, who repeatedly accused me of poaching when I'd attack an uninjured monster when it walked into the room I was in alone. Wichurana attacked me first, I defended myself. Apparently some of you are saying that it's okay to attack other people and whine if they wipe the floor with you, as long as you have other high level characters you can switch to for revenge.

Next. The issue of me 'crying about it' about Huka. I have never 'cried about it'. Harmnone, Yes, I was aware the log would cause Huka embarassment. I did not have his permission to post the log. Why would I need his permission? He was not a 'client' when he refused to pay me. If he had paid me, I would have needed his full express permission to post the log. He had repeatedly bragged about ripping me off on the amunet before the log was posted. Do not try to demon-ize me for simply defending myself.

Third. This 'age of consent' argument. It says quite clearly in the policy user must be 18 or over. So you're telling me that if a father buys a beer, and then gives it to his underage son at home, then you can accuse the store of giving alcohol to minors. Doesn't work that way. And face it folks, you have to pay for gemstone by credit card 95% of the time. that means it shows up on the credit card bill, which mommy and daddy pay, which means if they actually CARED then they would investigate it. Your argument is that I should restrict my actions because OTHER people are violating policy. Well golly that makes a whole lot of sense.

I knew posting the log would open me up to criticism, and unlike quite a few of these forum posters I am able to deal with criticism instead of having to demon-ize everyone who doesn't agree with me. Can you say the same?

Ben

08-23-2003, 06:23 AM

Last I checked you didn't get EXP from cyber sex, so why bother with it?

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 07:23 AM

Dammit.. let's talk about politics again so I can disagree with Tsa`ah.

This agreeing with everything Tsa`ah says is giving me a damn rash.

Warriorbird

08-23-2003, 08:57 AM

If none of y'all grasp that this is just a salesman guerilla marketing yet... I wouldn't surprised if she'd paid him. It's just another entrepeneurial leap. Kind've like Starbucks, RL. "We can charge people 5 bucks for coffee and make millions!" She's charging several mil for average quality cyber, that, in the past, probably would've run somebody 50k in Silvergate. Some of y'all probably know folks who'd do just as well for far cheaper. Now if she can turn a million for it? She's doing a lot better. It doesn't thrill me. I mean, if a man makes any references to pimping he'd probably get warned for it, but I'm sure she won't get in trouble because she's at the least sort've discreet, and books like Kushiel's Dart and Kushiel's Chosen are popular recently.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Warriorbird]

Bestatte

08-23-2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by HarmNone
We can point to policy and say what we wish. In the case of this particular policy, it is written with the express purpose of saving Simutronics from lawsuits filed by the parents of children who have been victimized by predatory adults, and/or from lawsuits filed because any other portion of the game (read violence) is seen to have put a child in emotional jeopardy. Does that excuse us, as adults, for the harm we might do? Perhaps it excuses you. It does not excuse me. I am not Simutronics. I am a thinking, feeling adult. Policy cannot free me from guilt I bring upon myself by actions taken without proper forethought.

HarmNone

I wanted to respond just to this paragraph; I've said my peace about everything else.

The Simu policy defines "user" as:

Simutronics Corporation ("Simutronics") agrees to provide you ("User") access to the use of Simutronics Online Games and those electronic bulletin boards, chat areas, software and graphics libraries, games and other computer services which Simutronics may occasionally offer (collectively, referred to herein as "Services"), under and subject to the terms and conditions stated herein. User is responsible for obtaining the equipment, Internet service provider, software and telephone services which are necessary for accessing and using the aforementioned Services.

further:

User shall be solely responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of the Password and shall be liable for any damages resulting from disclosing or allowing disclosure of such Password or from the use, authorized or unauthorized, by any person of such Password to gain access to User's account.

and

Each time User accesses the Services, User agrees and reaffirms that Simutronics is authorized, as applicable, to charge User's designated credit or debit card.

and

This Agreement is not assignable by User.

and then

(a) User may not engage in any conduct or communication while using the Services which is unlawful or which restricts or inhibits any other User from using or enjoying the Services.

All of this makes it very clear that the "user" is whoever is using the service, AND that ONLY the account-holder is authorized to use it. Not the account-holder's son, wife, sister, buddy, etc. etc. ONLY the user is responsible for both the account itself, AND for behavior while making use of that account. No one else is responsible, and further, no one else is allowed to use the service.

To Lisu's detriment:

YOU MAY NOT USE THE SERVICES TO:

* Transmit any unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable content. If User engages in vulgar or abusive language online, even if masked by symbols or other characters, or engages in other impermissible behavior, User may receive a warning, or be temporarily or permanently excluded from one or more games, bulletin boards, chat areas, or User's membership may be terminated immediately and User may be subject to civil liability and/or prosecution by law enforcement authorities.

This means she is not allowed to do the whole cyber-sex thing. Nor is anyone else, including the "customer" of the cyber-sex thing. Morality should be put aside in this situation, because no two people adhere to the exact same moral code. But the policy is very specific, and very clear. The fact that Simu doesn't enforce policy doesn't negate its existence, though either side of the cyber-sex situation would likely win a case against Simu as a result of "past precidence," in which they can prove that Simu has ignored their own policy regularly in the past, rendering their policy invalid. That would have to be proven, but I'm guessing it wouldn't be very hard to do.

The summary of all this, is that the user - the person who types in the password - is *supposed* to be the account holder and is *supposed* to be 18 years or older. Other users, because of this policy, have the right to assume that ALL users are obeying the policy. The policy also states that NO users are allowed to be using the service for "vulgar or obscene" activity, which means Lisu *should not* be doing any of this stuff in the first place. But neither should anyone else, including her characters' customers, no matter how old they are.

Lisu

08-23-2003, 10:54 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU MAY NOT USE THE SERVICES TO:

* Transmit any unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, hateful, racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable content. If User engages in vulgar or abusive language online, even if masked by symbols or other characters, or engages in other impermissible behavior, User may receive a warning, or be temporarily or permanently excluded from one or more games, bulletin boards, chat areas, or User's membership may be terminated immediately and User may be subject to civil liability and/or prosecution by law enforcement authorities.

Well let's see here. I've talked to the GMs. They gave me the approval to perform my 'profession' as long as the activity itself took place in a room where others could not 'wander' in, either a person's home with a locked door, or a room at the silvergate. As such, Regardless of what YOU consider 'vulgar' or 'objectionable' content, the GMs have made their decision. And since THEY decide, your argument is really up the creek without a paddle and a leaking boat.

Also, I'd like to address the issue of 'why is she worth millions'? This forum itself shows why. I have a reputation, I estimate at least 90% of the people in the landing know about me. Surely there are others out there, but they can't 'take the heat' of the criticism, so they stay quiet and thus lose out on a large portion of the shy clientele who otherwise wouldn't know the first step in obtaining this type of 'service'. That's why. The millions aren't only compensation for the service itself. They are also compensation for the countless pages of greif and flame I recieve because of the advertisement that alerted them to the service.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Lisu]

Artha

08-23-2003, 11:05 AM

What if it was your advertising on the amunet that alerted them to the service, should they pay less?

Tsa`ah

08-23-2003, 12:41 PM

Yet another case of using policy as justification.

I hope your e-bay coin sales go fine. I also hope for your sake that you haven't actually cybered with a minor or don't in the future, because it may turn out that while you're laughing all the way to the bank, the police will be waiting to haul you to a cell with horny Bertha.

Just out of curiosity, how old are you actually? No kids right?

Do me a favor. Volunteer to be an advocate for an abused child and get a clue.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 01:09 PM

It's a shame that people would sooner blame the product than the parents for allowing the child to be part of something the parents don't approve of. You have to be 18 to be a user of the product and are responsible for anything that goes on behind it. So if the child is allowed to use it, the parents need to monitor what he does and if they don't like the content, they need to remove the child, not the product. The product has been the same the entire time but because the parent is too busy or too concerned with other things to know what is going on in their child's life, they don't want to take responsibility for their actions as far as their child's life and safety are concerned. They'd rather put the blame on everything and everyone around the child except themselves.

I'm tired of people telling those that don't have children that they have no valid opinion on the subject.

And Lisu, more of the lands may know of you now because of this little scandal you've pulled. That doesn't make what you did any better. There have always been people who have given their body for sexual favors and quite possibly posted them. The ridicule really comes from a) bragging about your talents and b) saying that it's worth the incredible amount of silvers you're asking for. Believe me, people may have the silvers to spend in these lands, but that doesn't mean that they won't complain when what they paid for isn't to their satisfaction. If this exchange was never going to cost anything, the incident would have gone in and out of here within a few hours.

You enjoy what you do, forget about anyone else says, since you seem to think that what you do and how you do it is worth your time and their money. Yes you'll need the money because the silvers IS what is causing the grief and flaming in the first place, IMO.

Tsa`ah

08-23-2003, 01:57 PM

I certainly am not placing blame on the product Crystal. The parents responsible for any of her potential clients are just as culpable in my opinion.

As a father I will never allow my two daughters to play any on-line game without me first investigating the environment and policies. It's just a sad hallmark of today's society that so many parents blindly allow their children to participate in activities while being oblivious to the environment.

The atrocity is three fold here. Lisu for not caring and assuming (perhaps justifiably) that every one of her customers is able to legally consent. Simu's for not enforcing the policy set forth. Even offering an open letter to parents, that in my opinion, is contradictory to policy. Lastly the parents for using Simu as an inanimate yet interactive baby sitter.

I will restate that I have no problem with the character Lisu. There should be no reason for such controversy in an adult setting. Moral issues in a setting comprised strictly of adults can be discarded as differing opinions. When we throw children into the mix however, it becomes a beast of a different breed.

There are responsibilities being ignored here across the board and there can be no justification for that.

My initial response may have come across as harsh. I was not accusing Lisu as being a pedaphile or child molester. I was merely stating that if she was not taking precautions, if she was not trying to determine age, only then could she be classified as a sexual predator or child molester.

She has unfortunately admitted that it is not her responsibility nor desire to ensure children are not soliciting her services. That makes her scum in my opinion. I have no regrets if that comes across as harsh.

She can play the part of victim now to the best of her ability, but my opinion of her (if she has ever had a minor as a client) is of an abuser who doesn't deserve the right to life.

Understandably the issue becomes clouded, even murky, since the context is virtual. Neglect has been admitted and indifference toward the age of the client has been shown. Nuff said.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 02:43 PM

There are atleast 2 others that I know of you killed Lisu, and if I see it something will be done. Anyways, I also was wondering why you are rude as hell to Empaths? I play one which has no problem with you but you sure seemed to have a problem with her. Not even a thank you for healing, anyone who doesn't give atleast a thank you are on my black list, unfortunately your the first I have come acrossed that I have put on this list. Even Klaive says thank you. :roll:

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 02:55 PM

C'mon, you really expect her to ask each and every one of her customers their age? Do you really expect them to be honest if they aren't 18 or older? Look at all those porn sites that say "click here if you are 18+ of age" and all those kids who click on that link knowing they're lying to get in. What is the difference? There is very little you can do to ensure that people are actually 18. The most you can do is make people aware that it is an 18+ age site and those who enter are responsible for their own actions.

So no, I don't expect Lisu to make sure they are of age because even she would never be sure. Besides, this would be entirely different if she were taking people against their will and exposing them to something they weren't prepared for, but she isn't. She is soliciting herself and it's the clients who go to her, seeking her out for her services. So if a child understands what her "services" are, then that was their choice to make.

It doesn't seem to me that it's not because she doesn't care, it's that it was understood when playing that adults were playing this game. Perhaps it is an assumption that people are adults and treating them as such, but the children put themselves in that position, not her.

In all honesty, and yes this coming from someone who doesn't have children yet, but I'd rather my child go through experiences with Lisu who knows what she's doing and it just be a one time thing and not a serious relationship with someone else. Sometimes the people who play this game hold relationships in such high standards that they expect so much from it, both emotional and psychological. I really wouldn't want to see my child have to deal with someone out there giving my child a hard time because he's not giving her enough attention, that she wants some intimacy, some privacy, IMing him to meet him IRL. You don't hear about those people making sure they are playing with an adult. Why are those alright? Sure there are people out there who ask straight out how old the person is. Not because they don't want to roleplay with someone who's young, but because sometimes these people want to know there is potential for a real relationship. People who roleplay relationships for strictly roleplay don't care the age of the player.

She's keeping it all in the game (except for the published log which is the part that I'm most against) and just making it a roleplaying decision on everyone's part.

[Edited on 8/23/2003 by CrystalTears]

Artha

08-23-2003, 03:01 PM

I can't imagine she gets a super amount of customers. Ask, and you've got the law on your side. Don't ask, and you don't.

Drew2

08-23-2003, 03:16 PM

Someone [Subdued]:"Sellin' "a pair of rugged black leather pants with worn knees." They are leg worn, weigh two pounds and have a very small pocket.

.....Someone got ahold of Lisu's old pants.

Artha

08-23-2003, 03:19 PM

^^hahaha

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 03:22 PM

I honestly can't believe anyone of you thinks that Gemstone is an 18+ only game.

You can hide behind that excuse all you want Lisu, play the innocent ignorance excuse, but the fact that you clearly know that people under 18, heck people under 14 are playing and make up a significant population makes you a pervert.

Have fun playing sex with other little kids.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Lisu
Harmnone, Yes, I was aware the log would cause Huka embarassment. I did not have his permission to post the log. Why would I need his permission? He was not a 'client' when he refused to pay me. If he had paid me, I would have needed his full express permission to post the log. He had repeatedly bragged about ripping me off on the amunet before the log was posted. Do not try to demon-ize me for simply defending myself.

Upon what legal precedent are you basing the above, Lisu? Because he did not pay, you have a right to post? If he had paid, you would not have the right to post? This is ludicrous. You have the right to post whatever you choose to post, dear. This is not about entitlement, in my view. It is about responsibility. I do not demonize you. I find you irresponsible and immature.

Your disagreement with this individual could have been handled in-game, where it occurred. There are any number of scenaria that would have served quite well, and those are just off the top of my head. Roleplay it out.

Originally posted by Lisu
Third. This 'age of consent' argument. It says quite clearly in the policy user must be 18 or over. So you're telling me that if a father buys a beer, and then gives it to his underage son at home, then you can accuse the store of giving alcohol to minors. Doesn't work that way. And face it folks, you have to pay for gemstone by credit card 95% of the time. that means it shows up on the credit card bill, which mommy and daddy pay, which means if they actually CARED then they would investigate it. Your argument is that I should restrict my actions because OTHER people are violating policy. Well golly that makes a whole lot of sense.

My argument, Lisu, has never been that you should restrict your action because OTHER people are violating policy. My argument has been, and continues to be, that you should restrict your actions out of a sense of personal responsibility. You, yourself, note that if parents CARED, they would investigate. Sadly, not all do care. Obviously, neither do you. I, on the other hand, do care as do others posting here. It is as simple as that.

HarmNone

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by HarmNone]

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 03:37 PM

Furthermore since people love getting caught up in bogus technicalities... it's not a defense to say that USER must be over 18, because the agreements only says YOU have to be over 18, it doesn't say that everyone else in the game has to be over 18.

When you agree to a contract, YOU agree to it, and you can only assume that the contract was written for you. No where in that TOS does it say everyone else who plays the game is over 18, it only says that in order for you to make an account YOU must be over 18.

Furthermore the TOS doesn't say you can't let someone under 18 play, but only that if someone under 18 plays or anyone else who has the "Password" plays, YOU are still responsible for your account.

The only restriction it gives on who is not allowed to use your "Password" are those who have been banned from using Simutronics products.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 03:51 PM

The fact that Gemstone is a family oriented game has been a debate for years. Many people have never considered this game family in nature at any time, but we do understand that's how Simu is advertising it, and many of us think it's wrong.

The you in the contract is understood to mean the account holder who claimed they are 18 years of age or older. If someone who is underage plays, it's still the account holder who is responsible for what happens, not the people they interacted with.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
People who roleplay relationships for strictly roleplay don't care the age of the player.

If the relationship is to include sexual encounters, you can bet your bippy I care!

I understand what you are saying, as I understand what Bestatte and others are saying. I simply do not agree that we, as adults, can abrogate our responsibility in this issue by pointing to Simutronics policy or the indifference of some parents. If those parents are indifferent, shall I, then, magnify that indifference by being indifferent myself. If, as Lisu claims, the PTB at Simutronics have given the go- ahead to this kind of behavior without thought for the consequences to the young people they, themselves, encourage to play GemStone3, so be it. For me, thank you, no.

On another note, this discussion has so many facets it can become pretty convoluted. We are discussing responsibilty, legal ramifications, roleplay choices, and the rights of children vs adults all right here in one little thread, and that doesn't count the side-tracks into internet matters. Really very interesting to hear so many points of view. :)

HarmNone

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 03:58 PM

<< If someone who is underage plays, it's still the account holder who is responsible for what happens, not the people they interacted with. >>

That's simply not true. First of all, that contract is a EULA, and history shows that EULA's carry very little weight in a court simply because judges know that EULA's are nothing more than a way to save a companies ass.

Law or no law, if someone goes seeking sex in a game that's ADVERTISED as a family oriented game, where MANY people under 18 play, and shows no discretion hiding behind a sea of technicalities and a EULA, then they're nothing more than a pervert, and are hiding behind all those things maybe so they can sleep at night.

Leave prostitution off of the amunet, leave it out of public areas, don't go hunting and seeking a customer (that's how I encountered her, twice!). If you absolutely need to fullfill your sexual fantasy, there are plenty of games suited for it, including DragonRealms the Fallen. But leave it out of a family oriented game where minors play.

I still don't see what's so hard to understand about that, and sorry... no EULA is going to make me understand otherwise.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:13 PM

I know your feelings about cybersex in itself so I'm not going to press the issue with you, Kranar, because we will never see eye to eye on this. Although you know the only people complaining about this are the adults not the children, because the adults are not open minded enough to let their child experience things on their own, and speak to them about it so that they understand what they are getting involved in. Instead they rather they just not do it at all and leave it at that, and I don't find that acceptable either.

Yes there are better games out there that are specifically sexual in nature, all requiring that when they sign up they be at least 18 years of age as well (yes I play one, so there, big surprise :D ).

I suppose that people like to push the envelope with Gemstone to see how much they can get away with. They like to challenge the GMs and the other players it seems. People who are familiar with and enjoy playing Gemstone don't want to venture out to find another game because they like this one, and want to try something new and different. I can hardly blame her for that. As long as she keeps these affairs private, there shouldn't be a problem, as was told by a GM. If she is seeking people out while hunting, then she is going over her head with this and I will agree that's a bit much.

Artha

08-23-2003, 04:17 PM

because the adults are not open minded enough to let their child experience things on their own, and speak to them about it so that they understand what they are getting involved in.

Open-minded has nothing to do with this. Perhaps they just don't want to talk to their 12 year old about cyber-sex.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 04:18 PM

hehe it seems to me Simutronics is pulling the same thing as tobacco companies did. The Its and 18+ game, however their advertisement is it is for the whole family. If that is true that it is for the whole family then cybersex on Gemstone should be totally banned. And the policy thing is just another save our asses tactic. Well the tobacco companies have one too its called TRUTH. The thing is if I had kids I would much rather them be smoking then to have cyber sex with some dirty old man or woman like Lisu probably is. Whether you like it or not even though it isn't real, it does have an effect on children's minds.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Kranar
That's simply not true. First of all, that contract is a EULA, and history shows that EULA's carry very little weight in a court simply because judges know that EULA's are nothing more than a way to save a companies ass.

Right on target, Kranar. To me, what is being overlooked here is the little matter of personal responsibility. Some have pointed fingers at Simutronics for allowing this sort of thing to go on in a game advertised as suitible for young players. Some have pointed fingers at uncaring, uninvolved parents.

It has been said that Simutronics is wrong for advertising the game as family-oriented while turning a blind eye to those events that occur within the game which are anything but family-oriented. Implicit within that statement is the indication that the sexual side of GemStone (and, to many, the violent side of GemStone) is actually not suitible for young people at all.

What sets my mind to spinning is that the same people who point out these things do not see any culpability in themselves for perpetrating this "wrong" with full knowledge of the existance of very young player within the game. Because Simutronics does not care, and parents do not care, I then, am not held accountable for my actions? Hardly.

HarmNone

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 04:23 PM

<< Although you know the only people complaining about this are the adults not the children, >>

The laws, and even the morality of the issue, is PROTECTING children from having adults have sex with them, virtual or real.

Just like children wouldn't complain about drinking alcohol, or smoking weed, the laws aren't there because children would complain about them, but instead because adults who have sex with kids are seen to be sex-obsessed predators.

I mean I'd rather not have to explain why someone over 18 having cybersex or phonesex or a lapdance with someone 14- is wrong, hopefully if you don't agree, you'll understand that about 99.9 percent of the U.S. does and thus it's not unreasonable or even uncommon that adults find it incredibly sickening.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Kranar]

Drew2

08-23-2003, 04:24 PM

Oh please. All you people need to go to today's high school then come back and tell me what kids don't need to be exposed to. I've seen stuff in school hallways that comes uncomfortably close to anything Lisu has done. Cyber sex is the safest sex their is, so frankly I think it should probably be promoted as an outlet for teenage sexual tension, if that's what they enjoy. Let Simutronics deal with their policies the way they do, and if any parent wants to file a lawsuit against them for allowing their 12 year old kid to have cyber sex, then so be it. They'll cross that bride when they get there. Otherwise, this whole argument is pointless and redundant.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:27 PM

Open-minded has nothing to do with this. Perhaps they just don't want to talk to their 12 year old about cyber-sex.

That's exactly my point. Children are going to learn about it whether you talk to them about it or not, so may as well nip it in the bud and talk to them about it so that they don't go into the world unaware.

The thing is if I had kids I would much rather them be smoking then to have cyber sex with some dirty old man or woman like Lisu probably is. Whether you like it or not even though it isn't real, it does have an effect on children's minds.

That just boggles my mind that someone would rather let their child risk the chance of lung cancer than to experiment with words on a screen with a nameless, faceless person with zero risk of disease or pregnancy.

We ARE still discussing strictly cybersex, right? I am not for youngsters having REAL sex with people. I'm advocating that age cannot be proven on the internet no matter how hard you try. You've said it yourself.

[Edited on 8/23/2003 by CrystalTears]

Scott

08-23-2003, 04:29 PM

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:31 PM

Forget high school. I've seen how children behave in elementary and middle schools, and the exposure children are getting of sex is getting younger by the day.

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 04:31 PM

<< That just boggles my mind that someone would rather let their child risk the chance of lung cancer than to experiment with words on a screen with a nameless, faceless person with zero risk of disease or pregnancy. >>

So why not let children have sex with adults with a condom and using all the protection they can get?

There's a reason why sex with children is wrong, and it has nothing to do with the physical aspect.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by Tayre
Oh please. All you people need to go to today's high school then come back and tell me what kids don't need to be exposed to. I've seen stuff in school hallways that comes uncomfortably close to anything Lisu has done. Cyber sex is the safest sex their is, so frankly I think it should probably be promoted as an outlet for teenage sexual tension, if that's what they enjoy. Let Simutronics deal with their policies the way they do, and if any parent wants to file a lawsuit against them for allowing their 12 year old kid to have cyber sex, then so be it. They'll cross that bride when they get there. Otherwise, this whole argument is pointless and redundant.

Around here the high schools have security, not sure about everywhere else, so no stuff does not go on cause on every hall and even in bathrooms there is someone watching. Anyways, We are not only talking about the high school people. There are middle schoolers and yes, Even kids still in Elementary that play this game. I have met quite a few of them, they can roleplay well too, but anyways my point is, it seems that Gemstone is becoming like a kiddy pool for all the sickos to come play in. And for some reason Gemstone Allows it for the money, however they put a policy up to say they don't. Quite possibly to keep the kid factor so the sickos dont run off. :roll:

Scott

08-23-2003, 04:36 PM

All I'm going to say is it is wrong for an adult to have sex, ANY sex, with a minor. This include cybersex, phone sex, webcam sex, and real sex. It's up to you to decide if you believe that or not. That is just my opinion, and the majority of the populations.

If you believe that then you also believe that Lisu having sex with anyone in gemstone is wrong as well. Because we all know damn well that some of those people are younger children.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:39 PM

Well then Simu needs to remove all latched doors and make every room accessible at any time by anyone. Not even adults should be able to have sex in the game because no one will ever know how adult they really are. If this is a family game, what are people having sex in it for in the first place?

Skirmisher

08-23-2003, 04:40 PM

1) It is the responsibility of the parents to ensure the product that their children are playing with is apropriate.

I am NOT speaking about legalities.

I am speaking about realities.

Don't be one of those pathetic excuses of a parent that exist today and use cable tv and the internet as low cost day care.

2) I am amazed at the level of prudery being displayed by some here.

Do you honestly think that the average child has not seen pornography in one form or another by 13 at the latest? I don't even mean only on the net or cable although those are now the two easiest ways, but also in various magazines or dvd/vhs tapes that your brothers/fathers/cousins what have you have at home.

A parent should be able to discuss sex with their child. The problem is too many in this country think sex is something to be hidden and never spoken of at all, so their kids grow up feeling that way and today are not able to properly discuss sex with their own children.

My parents are in the medical field so perhaps it was easier for them, but I read books about the process of childbirth and have been using the proper terminology for physical parts since I was 5. I was not scarred in any way and amazingly have not run out and abused any children either.

Talk to your children, take the time to BE a parent for gods sakes and stop being so ready to blame everyone else in society for your failings.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears

The thing is if I had kids I would much rather them be smoking then to have cyber sex with some dirty old man or woman like Lisu probably is. Whether you like it or not even though it isn't real, it does have an effect on children's minds.

That just boggles my mind that someone would rather let their child risk the chance of lung cancer than to experiment with words on a screen with a nameless, faceless person with zero risk of disease or pregnancy.

We ARE still discussing strictly cybersex, right? I am not for youngsters having REAL sex with people. I'm advocating that age cannot be proven on the internet no matter how hard you try. You've said it yourself.

[Edited on 8/23/2003 by CrystalTears]

In all actuality you have a chance of getting lung cancer by just breathing. But seriously, apparently you are one that views that the psycological makeup of a child is not affected by online games, chats etc huh? Well let me let you in on something, IT DOES. There, now contemplate then post.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:46 PM

And you think children killing things all day doesn't affect them either?

Both violence and sex need to be discussed by the parent to their child because both can cause psychological damage to the child if they don't understand it.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by Skirmisher
1) It is the responsibility of the parents to ensure the product that their children are playing with is apropriate.

I am NOT speaking about legalities.

I am speaking about realities.

Don't be one of those pathetic excuses of a parent that exist today and use cable tv and the internet as low cost day care.

2) I am amazed at the level of prudery being displayed by some here.

Do you honestly think that the average child has not seen pornography in one form or another by 13 at the latest? I don't even mean only on the net or cable although those are now the two easiest ways, but also in various magazines or dvd/vhs tapes that your brothers/fathers/cousins what have you have at home.

A parent should be able to discuss sex with their child. The problem is too many in this country think sex is something to be hidden and never spoken of at all, so their kids grow up feeling that way and today are not able to properly discuss sex with their own children.

My parents are in the medical field so perhaps it was easier for them, but I read books about the process of childbirth and have been using the proper terminology for physical parts since I was 5. I was not scarred in any way and amazingly have not run out and abused any children either.

Talk to your children, take the time to BE a parent for gods sakes and stop being so ready to blame everyone else in society for your failings.

Okay that may be true, but videos and magazines do not reply. And chances are more likely that a kid would ask their parent about stuff they saw in magazines and videos. If I had kids I would much rather handle the sex questions rather then some pervert on the computer, who may also be a predator looking to come meet the kid.

Scott

08-23-2003, 04:48 PM

Skirmisher

08-23-2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Terrorize

Okay that may be true, but videos and magazines do not reply. And chances are more likely that a kid would ask their parent about stuff they saw in magazines and videos. If I had kids I would much rather handle the sex questions rather then some pervert on the computer, who may also be a predator looking to come meet the kid.

Yes, thats what I'm saying.

Handle your business.

If you did, your kids wouldnt be quite so amazed with the fantastic mystery of sex that no one would tell them about so they had to go ask some anonymous person on the net.

Edited to add that all the "you"s in this post are meant in the general sense.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Skirmisher]

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:51 PM

Don't make it as simple as "attack kobold" when there is a constant attack, then a death, then a roll of the head or splattering of the brains and a smile sweeps across a child's face. Yeah, real nice. That's okay though.

Artha

08-23-2003, 04:52 PM

Both violence and sex need to be discussed by the parent to their child because both can cause psychological damage to the child if they don't understand it.

And they need to be discussed at the proper time. Lisu, or any other cyber-hooker, doesn't know if it's the proper time or not, or how old the child is.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Artha]

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well then Simu needs to remove all latched doors and make every room accessible at any time by anyone. Not even adults should be able to have sex in the game because no one will ever know how adult they really are. If this is a family game, what are people having sex in it for in the first place?

Agreed! In spades! If the game is to be for adults, make the advertising support that. If the game is to be child-friendly, make it so.

HarmNone (or Picard?)

HarmNone

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:55 PM

When is the proper time? Before or after they discover it for themselves? At a certain age? When they teach it at school so you won't have to? There is no such thing as "proper time" except in the eyes of the parent, when it's the proper time for them to tell them.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
And you think children killing things all day doesn't affect them either?

Both violence and sex need to be discussed by the parent to their child because both can cause psychological damage to the child if they don't understand it.

I would explain to my kids that the violence in games isn't real and you should't do that stuff. However the having sex in a 'Family Game' Hmm.. That is like comparing apples to oranges. I started playing really young and lemme tell you I just wanted to take my axe and kill me a kobold IRL, Yeah right. Most kids if their parents and everyone have taught them this from day one, Understand Violence is wrong. However, a young impressionable kid usually has no idea what sex is, so they know no better. Are you saying its the parent's fault for not teaching their kids sex at say, 8 years old and not Simu's for advertising as a family orientated game when clearly there are predators? Clearly if it is advertised as such many parents would trust that and not bother to read the policy.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 04:58 PM

So how come the parent can tell them all the rights and wrongs about violence but not about sex?

I can do this all day. I'm filling in for Bob as top poster. :D

Scott

08-23-2003, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So how come the parent can tell them all the rights and wrongs about violence but not about sex?

I can do this all day. I'm filling in for Bob as top poster. :D

Because it's not appropriate to teach an 8 year old child about sex.

Drew2

08-23-2003, 05:00 PM

According to whom or what?

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So how come the parent can tell them all the rights and wrongs about violence but not about sex?

I can do this all day. I'm filling in for Bob as top poster. :D

Okay let me ask you this, Why would a child below the age of say 12 need to know anything about sex?

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:01 PM

According to whom or what?

According to the parent because they don't want to do it.

Okay let me ask you this, Why would a child below the age of say 12 need to know anything about sex?

Because they're already getting exposed to it by talking about it with their peers and I do believe sex education is being taught at younger ages in many schools.

[Edited on 8/23/2003 by CrystalTears]

Scott

08-23-2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
According to the parent because they don't want to do it.

I don't think it's about not wanting to do it....... I don't think ANY parent wants to have "the talk." However a lot of parents know when that talk is nessacary. I don't even want to yell at my kids, (no I don't have any.) but I realize that I will have to do it.

Terrorize

08-23-2003, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears

According to whom or what?

According to the parent because they don't want to do it.

Okay let me ask you this, Why would a child below the age of say 12 need to know anything about sex?

Because they're already getting exposed to it by talking about it with their peers and I do believe sex education is being taught at younger ages in many schools.

[Edited on 8/23/2003 by CrystalTears]

Well when I have kids I am going to make sure they go to a school which won't teach them that til I deem it necessary.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
And you think children killing things all day doesn't affect them either?

Both violence and sex need to be discussed by the parent to their child because both can cause psychological damage to the child if they don't understand it.

You are absolutely correct. Such things should be discussed, and children should be given an understanding of these aspects of the human condition. However, there is a proper time and place for such discussions, and a proper technique to be used during the discussion. There is a big difference in the quality of the information being imparted by (hopefully) loving parents, as opposed to some uncaring, unknown individual on the internet.

It is also important to note that input from death messaging and input of a sexual nature is processed differently by the brain.

HarmNone

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:08 PM

Stick em in a private school. That'll teach em. :P

By the way, private schools have more problems with sex than public ones simply because they treat sex as though it's a bad thing, which is why they become rebellious later on in life and why we end up with more teenage pregnancies because the proper people (meaning mostly parents) won't speak to them about it.

Artha

08-23-2003, 05:19 PM

Let's say a kid goes to one of these...sessions. Later he gets poison ivy on his hands in the woods, and has to tinkle.

'Mom! My rod of love itches!'

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 05:23 PM

<< By the way, private schools have more problems with sex than public ones simply because >>

That is an unsubstantiated claim.

If you have some statistics or anything to back that statement up in anyway, shape, or form, please provide them. I simply will not accept an unsubstantiated claim simply because of a theoretical assumption.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
When is the proper time? Before or after they discover it for themselves? At a certain age? When they teach it at school so you won't have to? There is no such thing as "proper time" except in the eyes of the parent, when it's the proper time for them to tell them.

Wrong. Quite wrong, actually. The proper time will differ from child to child, or it has in my experience. The content, and how it is presented, also differs from child to child. The only person/s who can know what content should be presented, when it should be presented, and how it should be presented is/are the adult/s who know the child best.

HarmNone

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:25 PM

Okay okay, sorry. Heh I should know better than to say things like that without backup. I should have stated "in my opinion and experience".

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
By the way, private schools have more problems with sex than public ones simply because they treat sex as though it's a bad thing, which is why they become rebellious later on in life and why we end up with more teenage pregnancies because the proper people (meaning mostly parents) won't speak to them about it.

Again, not true. Perhaps you are referring to religiously-based private schools. Not all private schools espouse a religious format.

HarmNone

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:30 PM

Yeah, I was referring to religious-based private schools. Well I'm all colors unclear today, aren't I? :D

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yeah, I was referring to religious-based private schools. Well I'm all colors unclear today, aren't I? :D

:D No problem. I have you at a bit of a disadvantage, as I have raised children, and they went to secular private schools.

Hang in there, Crystal. You're presenting your viewpoints, and I am interested in those viewpoints, whether or not I agree with them. ;)

HarmNone, collector of ecclectic thoughts

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by HarmNone]

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:35 PM

Yes and some friends I grew up with went to catholic schools and were such ho's! :D

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 05:38 PM

Ones own personal experience of an education system attended by millions of individuals doesn't exactly qualify as backup.

I'm afraid I can't accept your viewpoint that because you knew some ho's at a private school, that somehow private schools have teen pregnancy issues or other sexually related issues.

Did you not know any "ho's" at your public school?

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Yes and some friends I grew up with went to catholic schools and were such ho's! :D

I once dated a preacher's son. The memories still cause me to shudder. :o

HarmNone

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by Kranar
Ones own personal experience of an education system attended by millions of individuals doesn't exactly qualify as backup.

I'm afraid I can't accept your viewpoint that because you knew some ho's at a private school, that somehow private schools have teen pregnancy issues or other sexually related issues.

Did you not know any "ho's" at your public school?

Kranar is right. Where a young person is educated is not particularly relevant to his or her sexual behavior, from what I have seen.

HarmNone

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:41 PM

Calm down, Kranar. I was giving my viewpoint from my experiences and wasn't giving any factual testimony. I'm rather sorry now that I even said it at all. <stares>

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 05:48 PM

The point is you made a false assumption, that because someone is affiliated with some religious background, that they have an inferior education and even a dangerous one at that, an education that could put them in jeopardy.

I am simply calling you on it because I wish to debunk that statement. I think saying that because one believes in a religion or goes to a religious school so they're more likely to be in sexual jeopardy is incorrect and is a false assumption to make.

The religious bashing is becoming more and more popular. Yes there are priests who abuse children, and now it seems everyone wants to jump on the bandwagon and bash religion like it's the new fashionable thing.

I think it's silly.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 05:50 PM

To get back on topic, I am still trying to understand how one can, seemingly, ignore the matter of personal responsibility. How does one justify having just performed sexual acts (albiet, cyber-acts) on/with a minor by pointing at the irresponsibility of others (Simutronics, parents, et al)? Has this happened to anyone here? Have you discovered that your partner in a clandestine "adventure" was, in fact, very young? How did you feel? Did it matter to you? Have you seen that person again? Talked to him/her? Do you know the effect you might have had on this person?

I am nothing if not curious. It is the bane of my being.

HarmNone the insatiably curious

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 05:51 PM

And yes, I do have the right and even an obligation to debunk ones personal hypothesis in a debate. Would you tell someone who debunked a myth that all members of a certain race are violent based on someones personal experience to calm down?

In the same way, I don't think it's all that far fetched for me to debunk the myth that people who pertain to some sort of religious background are somehow defunct either sexually, ethically, or in anyway.

Scott

08-23-2003, 05:57 PM

It's really simple. Gemstone polices a "family based" game. With Gemstone saying the game is a family game, sluts shouldn't be allowed. It is up to the PARENT to decide when it is right for a child to recieve "the talk." It's not up to you, me, or in this case Lisu to bring a child into a sexual encounter. When a parent signs up their young son/daughter they KNOW Gemstone involves violence, they don't know that Gemstone has sluts and whores (since it IS a family game so they say.)

So, in conclusion, as long as Simutronic's calls Gemstone a family game, it is not right to allow a slut in the game.

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 05:58 PM

<< To get back on topic, I am still trying to understand how one can, seemingly, ignore the matter of personal responsibility. >>

The impression I'm getting is that sex is just entertainment. It's just a game one plays and has fun doing. If a kid wants to have some fun doing it with an adult over the internet, then it's no different than two adults doing it.

Big whoop... so some 12 year old and some 30 year old are screwing around. The 12 year old is going to hear about it sometime... may as well have him hear it from a 30 year old than going out in real life and doing it.

Because we all know that if you don't have cybersex over the internet, that you're going to go outside and find a real prostitute to have sex with.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Kranar]

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 05:59 PM

I'm sorry Kranar, I wasn't trying to make it an end-all-be-all statement about private schools. I was judging from my own personal experiences, and that's how I feel parents are with their own children. They go by their own experiences instead of going on fact. But what I said was wrong and I apologize.

As for HarmNone's question, to my knowledge, I haven't cybered with a minor. I had very few relationships in the game, let alone sexual ones and I usually did it with people I was familiar with and knew enough about them to know that they would handle it like an adult and not go off on a tangent or spread the story around like wildfire.

If there's any cybering I do it's in the sexual text game I play on the side because I generally don't trust the player community in Gemstone to be mature about anything. The mature ones tend to be, in my opinion and experience, the exception not the rule.

Betheny

08-23-2003, 06:25 PM

I would think that as you cannot truly determine a person's age (as in, asking for an I.D.) that if you do everything you can (like asking) and are still 'fooled' (by them lying) that you wouldn't be held liable.

Just like a web site that distributes pornography -- If someone lies about their age, how are they supposed to know? If a 12 year old clicks the 'Yes, I am over 18 and a consenting adult' link instead of the "I'm a minor" link... What can they do? I imagine there's some kind of laws dealing with it.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
If there's any cybering I do it's in the sexual text game I play on the side because I generally don't trust the player community in Gemstone to be mature about anything. The mature ones tend to be, in my opinion and experience, the exception not the rule.

That makes sense to me, Crystal. I think that is what I, and others, are saying is the correct thing to do. By doing what you are doing, you are taking personal responsibility and are keeping this sort of behavior where it belongs...in an adult-oriented game environment. You do that, obviously, because you realize the harm you could do to someone to young too understand what they are getting themselves into. That is mature and responsible behavior. Lisu's behavior is not.

HarmNone

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by HarmNone]

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Kranar
The impression I'm getting is that sex is just entertainment. It's just a game one plays and has fun doing. If a kid wants to have some fun doing it with an adult over the internet, then it's no different than two adults doing it.

I get the same impression from some posters, Kranar. I realize that different people have different values, and different views of what is right and what is wrong. I also realize there are grey areas. To me, this is not one of them.

I see the application of such excuses as "Simu allows it." or "The parents should be watching." as excuses to avoid taking responsibility for one's choices and the outcome of same. Perhaps I am wrong, but I see it thus.

HarmNone

Weedmage Princess

08-23-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
It's a shame that people would sooner blame the product than the parents for allowing the child to be part of something the parents don't approve of.

Speak it, Sister!

No matter what your stance on cyber is, right or wrong, no matter how much of a preditor the person may be, child or not, if anything like this happens to a child in Gemstone it is ultimately THE PARENT'S fault.

I have a son, and yes, when he comes of age to use a computer (that's like what..10 these days???) , I don't want him looking at porno or having cybersex. So what will I do? Set up parental controls, make sure what he does is monitored, etc, etc. IE, I will TAKE INTEREST in what my child is doing. Why? Because he's MY responsibility, not Simu's, not Comcast's, AOL's, anyone elses...mine. The trouble is people want to use the computer and television as babysitters...let their kid stare into the monitor for hours on end, hey who the hell cares what they're doing, they're keeping quiet and not annoying me, right? No. Not right. Watch your damn kids, or don't have em.

If it were up to me, when the parent walked into court to press charges against said internet child predator..if it could be determined that the parent didn't monitor their child's actions on the computer, the parents would get lead off in cuffs as well.

[Edited on 8-23-2003 by Weedmage Princess]

Soulpieced

08-23-2003, 06:39 PM

Sweet jesus you people have a lot to complain about. I can't read any of the gibberish or hundreds of complaints about her, but I really see nothing wrong with what Lisu does. In fact, if people are stupid enough to pay her millions of silvers to cyber, that is essentially free money. I mean, if she is in fact a first character for the player, she's a fucking merchanting genius. I wish I made that sort of money for nothing when I first started. I'd be filthy stinking rich.... well, moreso than I am now.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
No matter what your stance on cyber is, right or wrong, no matter how much of a preditor the person may be, child or not, if anything like this happens to a child in Gemstone it is ultimately THE PARENT'S fault.

I see it just a little differently. I see a shared fault. Should the parent be more vigilant? Absolutely. However, who is the last person who could have acted to avoid the issue entirely? The adult who involved him/herself in cyber-sex with a minor.

Furthermore, to advertise such "services" in a game that purports itself to be child-friendly (and we all KNOW Simu does this with GemStone3), and to take on all comers **cough**, is to knowingly take the responsibility for possibly having a child as a "client".

HarmNone

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 06:55 PM

I'm just wondering if people who have kids who actually play the game themselves allow their children to play as well.

I would only hope that parents who open up an account for an online game for their child would at least test the game out for a few days to see if it's acceptable for their child to play. If they open it for them and not care about what is going on inside and take the game contract and description as their only representation, then it most certainly is the parent's fault that their child got caught up in something they didn't approve of.

I still don't see how they can say this game is child-friendly. Slaves, murders, homosexuals, rape, brothels... and these are between the gods, the room descriptions and game history, not even player written.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 07:02 PM

Originally posted by Lady Daina
One problem I see is the confusion as to whether Gemstone is a family oriented game, or an 18 and over only type of game.

They are not consistent in it. If in fact GMs have given Lisu the thumbs up because this is supposed to be an 18 and over only game, then why do they send to people for talking about an enema, stating that it isn't 'PG-13' enough? Like a lot of things, Simu really needs to pick a side of the fence and get over there already. This balancing act is just causing more problems than anything.

The difference, as Simu sees it, is in whether the incident is private or public.

HarmNone

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
I still don't see how they can say this game is child-friendly. Slaves, murders, homosexuals, rape, brothels... and these are between the gods, the room descriptions and game history, not even player written.

Again, we agree, CrystalTears. It is my belief that Simutronics' management needs to take a stand on this issue and quit riding the fence. They bear a heavy responsibility, to my mind.

Simutronics cannot control, nor can they ensure, who is on the other side of a monitor; however, they can control how they advertise their product.

HarmNone

Skirmisher

08-23-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by HarmNone

...

Furthermore, to advertise such "services" in a game that purports itself to be child-friendly (and we all KNOW Simu does this with GemStone3), and to take on all comers **cough**, is to knowingly take the responsibility for possibly having a child as a "client".

HarmNone

The problem with this is that we ALL know that this happens in GS3.

No one can claim ignorance here. If we will acknowledge that the existance of the cybering is an openly known thing then how can we complain in righteous indignation when it happens? It's like knowing the fire is hot and going and getting mad that we got burned when we stuck our hand in.

All a parent has to do is go to the official BBS of the game of even search for others such as this one and ASK about it.

Once more I find myself unable to free the parents from their responsibility to ensure their children sees only what they feel appropriate.

If a child reads alot as I and my siblings did there is a LOT of things they can easily come across that is at least as graphic as the Lisu Log. I remember watching some movie with my sisters on HBO when I was pretty young and it had a sex scene in it and my mom walked in at precisely that moment. She was irritated till I told her that it wasnt anywhere near as graphic as the book(about the same movie) that I had already read. At this point she chuckled and sat down to watch the rest with us. Now the book looked rather innocuous and it was mostly, but it did have several well explained sex scenes. Big deal. Rather I should say no big deal. You could buy it at any book store and guess what? They don't card.

Bestatte

08-23-2003, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Well then Simu needs to remove all latched doors and make every room accessible at any time by anyone. Not even adults should be able to have sex in the game because no one will ever know how adult they really are. If this is a family game, what are people having sex in it for in the first place?

Agreed! In spades! If the game is to be for adults, make the advertising support that. If the game is to be child-friendly, make it so.

HarmNone (or Picard?)

HarmNone

Yes yes yes, a thousand times yes Harmone. All the other stuff I wrote were facts - policies and interpretations of policies. Up until now I haven't stated my opinion on the subject. But that is exactly my opinion. Simutronics needs to make a decision and stick with it.

Is it a game for 18+? Yes? Then ditch the letter to parents and replace it with a warning to parents.

Is it a family game? Yes? Then get rid of hotel rooms and enforce ALL references to vulgarity in any way, shape, form, including mild teasing innuendo.

The fact of the matter is, we have both. A letter to parents, and the user agreement. Regardless of what Kranar thinks, or anyone else - the policy clearly defines user as the person who is USING the service. If you use it, then you are, by definition, the user, and all policies apply to you.

EVERYONE who plays GemstoneIII is a user. Therefore the policy applies to EVERYONE who plays GemstoneIII. Everyone who plays it is supposed to obey the policies. No, it isn't enforceable, and I can't think of any instance where they actually try to enforce it. But that's the whole point of my posts. That they create arbitrary policies that are not enforceable and open an enormous bee's nest of trouble as a result.

Given the "past precidence" of the in-game history of Gemstone, Lisu is not wrong to have a little fun with cybersex with her character. I personally believe she should protect herself from potential problems by asking EVERY one of her characters' customers to state that they are of age, and log the entire event including the customers' statements. But since logs can be doctored, even THAT wouldn't hold weight in court, if she ever got called for it.

I just think Simu needs to shit or get off the pot. Either it's an adult game, with adult oriented situations and freedom to roleplay adult situations, or it is not. It can't be both.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 07:50 PM

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Once more I find myself unable to free the parents from their responsibility to ensure their children sees only what they feel appropriate.

I do not believe that anyone who has posted has said that parents are guilt-free in this issue, Skirmisher. Some of us simply contend that they are not the only parties with a share in said guilt.

HarmNone

Tsa`ah

08-23-2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by HarmNone

Simutronics cannot control, nor can they ensure, who is on the other side of a monitor; however, they can control how they advertise their product.

HarmNone

They can take precautions.

::ring:: ::ring::

Mrs. Jones: Hello?
Simu: Hello, Mrs. Jones?
Mrs. Jones: Yes? This is she.
Simu: Yes Mrs. Jones, this is Joe from Simutronics billing. We make these calls to all new accounts to verify that you the account holder did indeed sign up for our services. We have on our records that you signed up for our service at 10:30pm yesterday evening. Is this correct?
Mrs. Jones: Yes it is.
Simu: Mrs. Jones, for security reasons, I am going to recite the first three series of numbers that appears on your visa, and then the first two series of numbers that appears in your SSN. I need you to finish the series to ensure that I am indeed talking to Mrs. Jones.
****** confirmation occurs **********
Simu: Ok Mrs. Jones, we're sorry to inconvenience you like this, but it is part of our mission to ensure that our player base is indeed protected, and this includes you.
Mrs. Jones: OK
Simu: Mrs. Jones did you sign up for our games for yourself or another family member?
Mrs. Jones: Oh, I subscribed to the service for my little Tommy. All of his friends play on-line games and Tommy has been bugging me since last year to play.
Simu: Mrs. Jones, did you read our terms of service?
Mrs. Jones: Oh I skimmed through.
Simu: Mrs. Jones, Simutronics and all of its products, with the exception of cyber strike, are text-based games. This means the player only sees words through screen scroll. We have deemed all of our products, again with the exception of cyber strike, as adult oriented entertainment. We do this for a number of reasons. The first and foremost reason is that this is a role-playing game, and some of the players choose to take their role-play to a sexual level, while some are content to just "hunt" as it were. Since we cannot monitor who is doing what at all times, we have no way of ensuring that little Tommy is not engaging or being propositioned sexually.
Mrs. Jones: Oh dear.
Simu: Yes Mrs. Jones, that is our reason for these calls. I am afraid that we at Simu cannot accept this account.
Mrs. Jones: Oh I certainly understand, and thank you.
**********Click**************

That simple.

Should the parent want to argue that their child should be able to play, and sign up another account, then lie during confirmation.... that's them.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 08:06 PM

Simu: Mrs. Jones, Simutronics and all of its products, with the exception of cyber strike, are text-based games. This means the player only sees words through screen scroll. We have deemed all of our products, again with the exception of cyber strike, as adult oriented entertainment. We do this for a number of reasons. The first and foremost reason is that this is a role-playing game, and some of the players choose to take their role-play to a sexual level, while some are content to just "hunt" as it were. Since we cannot monitor who is doing what at all times, we have no way of ensuring that little Tommy is not engaging or being propositioned sexually.

But this is exactly the problem. They aren't advertising this game as adult in nature. They are saying it's family oriented, so the parents have no idea what is going on in the game unless they play the damned thing or read the boards. As it stands, they're not saying that so what would you like them to say in that phone conversation?

Simu: Simutronics have text based games that encourage roleplay and imagination through words. Although our game are family oriented, since we cannot control our players, there may be sex and other adult themes, but we don't monitor or mind them as long as they are behind closed doors. So you may want to watch over Tommy's shoulder when he plays because you never know who or what he'll be playing with.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 08:08 PM

That would, indeed, ensure that the person holding the account knew the context of play in GemStone3. However, it would still not ensure who is on the other side of that monitor at any given time.

Let us say the call was made, as you outlined it. Let us say the person verified that the account was being opened for herself (Mrs. Jones), and/or her husband. Now, let us say that Mrs. Jones and her husband go out to dinner, the babysitter falls asleep in the easy chair in front of the TV, and little Tommy hot-foots it for the computer. Meeep Meeep Meeep! Alarm! Minor in front of monitor! All perverts on deck!

All humor aside, there is NO way to ensure who is on the other side of that monitor. We can take any number of precautions, and we can protect ourselves legally, but we still cannot guarantee that the person with whom we are interacting is other than twelve years old.

HarmNone

Tsa`ah

08-23-2003, 08:10 PM

I'm aware of that. Completely aware.

Keeping with the debate, this is something they should do. If simu doesn't have a problem with characters like Lisu, then this is an adult game and should be advertised as such. Thus the phone call.

If this is to indeed be a family oriented Disney rip off... No more Lisus.

I would prefer the adult rout personally.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 08:12 PM

Personally, what I would like to see would be each involved entity, Simutronics, parents and adult players, take upon themselves the responsibility that is theirs to bear. Will that happen? I am not holding my breath.

HarmNone

Vesi

08-23-2003, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by Terrorize
Okay let me ask you this, Why would a child below the age of say 12 need to know anything about sex?

Children, at the very least, need to know at they youngest age possible that there are good touches and bad touches. I taught my daughter between the age of 3 and 4 that no one should be touching her in her 'bathing suit' area. (unless it was the doctor and I was in there with her)

Originally posted by Terrorize

Well when I have kids I am going to make sure they go to a school which won't teach them that til I deem it necessary.

Normally, the school will send home a note advising you that they are going to have a sex education class. This note was sent home to us in the fifth grade. (you gave your permission or denied it) Kids are usually 10 in the fifth grade.

They split the classes by sex. They were taught basic sex education. Taught about menustration, how their bodies were or would be changing, erections, STDs, how babies are made, etc. Kids physically mature a lot earlier than they did 20 years ago. I'm not saying that they're ready mentally to have sex at that age. I'm just telling you how some school systems operate.

With me, if my daughter was old enough to me a ask the question, she was old enough to hear as honest an answer as I could give her.

Vesi

P. S. I'm in no way picking on you Terroize because I quoted you. Others here have said basically the same. You just happened to be the one I quoted.

Artha

08-23-2003, 08:19 PM

In my fifth grade Sex Ed class, all we learned about were wet dreams...

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 08:21 PM

<< The fact of the matter is, we have both. A letter to parents, and the user agreement. Regardless of what Kranar thinks, or anyone else - the policy clearly defines user as the person who is USING the service. If you use it, then you are, by definition, the user, and all policies apply to you. >>

Not only are you bickering over minor technicalities, but you don't even seem to understand the technicalities you're bickering over.

The user is defined simply as the one who is agreeing to the contract. It's defined as "User" because the agreement is a EULA (End user liscence agreement).

All it says is that if you're agreeing to this contract, you must be over 18 (since you can't agree to a contract if you're under 18)

It doesn't say "User" can't let someone under 18 play the game, it only says that "User" can not let someone previously banned use their account.

The game clearly states that it's for people of all ages to play, and the fact that you seem to ignore this because you have a skewed interpretation of what it means to be a user won't change that. If you read the agreement for DragonRealms the Fallen, you will see that game specifically states that only people 18 years and older are allowed to play it.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Kranar]

GemstoneFan

08-23-2003, 08:28 PM

Not to get off topic, but have they ever considered "GS The Fallen"? I'd sure pay to play knowing that everyone was 18+.... of course where's the guarantee there also.

Just seems that the "school is out" factor would go down a lot more, dealing with the 18/up crowd.

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 08:33 PM

<< Not to get off topic, but have they ever considered "GS The Fallen"? I'd sure pay to play knowing that everyone was 18+.... of course where's the guarantee there also. >>

They will be coming out with Gemstone The Fallen, and Melissa said it would probably be called Gemstone Shattered. Whatley announced it but when it's coming out is anyones guess.

And like I said, I will have no problem with prostitutes or drug dealers or even just scumbuckets who eat algae off the ground playing in there. It will be a no-rules, 18 and up game where anything goes, and if you don't like something, you take the issue into your own hands and deal with it.

Whores belong in the Fallen, but they don't belong out in the public in Prime. That server should maintain a certain standard of decency to reflect not only children who play, but the standards of many others.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 08:41 PM

So if Simu decides tomorrow that Gemstone is an adult game and it's up the discretion of the account holder to allow children to play, would you care what Lisu or those like her did in the game?

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Keeping with the debate, this is something they should do. If simu doesn't have a problem with characters like Lisu, then this is an adult game and should be advertised as such. Thus the phone call.

If this is to indeed be a family oriented Disney rip off... No more Lisus.

I would prefer the adult rout personally.

If we are to believe what Lisu tells us, the GM's, who are the in-game representatives of Simutronics Corporation, have said that it is acceptable for her to play the part she has chosen to play in Elanthia, and have voiced no objection to her methods.

If she is advertising on the amunet, there is no doubt the GMs are aware that she is advertising on the amunet. If she is approaching people in hunting grounds, randomly, there is little doubt that they have been made aware of this fact. That leads me to believe her when she says she has their approval; therefore, she has the approval of Simutronics as a whole.

To approve of this behavior while advertising GemStone3 as a family-oriented game (Letter to Parents on website) and targetting the teen audience, is decidedly hypocritical and irresponsible, in my opinion.

Make an honest decision, Simutronics.

HarmNone

Vesi

08-23-2003, 08:42 PM

I would really like to see a log of someone from both sides of this debate and a GM. Guess the problem with that it would then be a discussion of not talking to the 'right' GM. Still would be interested.

I know Lisu said she talked to a GM about it. I also know logs can be doctored. It would just be nice if Simu policy didn't have such a 'grey' area. (yes, I do think it is a grey area)

Vesi

Vesi

08-23-2003, 08:45 PM

These posts are going so fast. I should have just waited for Harmnone's post.

Vesi

Vesi

08-23-2003, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Artha
In my fifth grade Sex Ed class, all we learned about were wet dreams...

From the looks of your posts, at least you had a good English teacher.

Vesi

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So if Simu decides tomorrow that Gemstone is an adult game and it's up the discretion of the account holder to allow children to play, would you care what Lisu or those like her did in the game?

If Simutronics took a hard stand on this issue and declared GemStone3 to be an adult-oriented game, removed the Letter to Parents from the website, stopped all targetting of the teen audience, and put a clear disclaimer in a prominent position on the website, stating therein that the game has unquestionably adult content, I would hold Lisu and her ilk blameless should a child be subjected to sexual content.

For myself, I would still be unwilling to engage in such behavior, as I know I cannot ensure the age of the people with whom I interact on the internet. However, I cannot, and would not, hold others to that stance.

Once the truths are stated clearly on the website, the responsibility is placed solely on the parents/account holder, and all ambiguity has been removed from the situation.

HarmNone

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 10:09 PM

<< So if Simu decides tomorrow that Gemstone is an adult game and it's up the discretion of the account holder to allow children to play, would you care what Lisu or those like her did in the game? >>

If Gemstone were an adult only game, like DragonRealms the Fallen, or some other adult-themed game, then no I wouldn't care.

I don't know what you mean by if it's up to the discretion of the account holder. If it's an adult only game, then that means that it should be assumed that those who play it are adults, that there is a reasonable basis to believe that anyone who plays it is an adult. The way GS is now, there is no reasonable way to assume that someone is or isn't an adult because we know that MANY people who play it are under 18 years of age and also because Simutronics advertises the game as being family-oriented, PG-13, however else you wish to define it.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 10:16 PM

Because there ARE parents out there who don't mind or care what games their child plays, which is why I said it's up to the parent of whether they watch it or not. So even though there would be a statement saying that it's an adult game, a child could still be playing.

Adhara

08-23-2003, 10:19 PM

Gah! I work for 8 hours and there's 4 pages of posts when I get back.

For the record, I would like to point out that I was in catholic school run by nuns (both sexes til 6th and all girls from then on) from 1st grade all the way through highschool and we received a very adequate sex education that did not in any way paint the sex picture as dirty or morally wrong. The nuns, of course, did not think that we should have sex outside of marriage but they had enough sense to admit to themselves that we would anyway. By the time we got the sex classes, we all knew everything about the mechanics of sex but the timing was, in my opinion, proper (I think we were 15ish).

We did not seem to have out of the ordinary statistics when it came to pregnancy (I'm pretty sure we were below average, private school or not) and our teens were no more rebellious than next door.

I did not take offense at Crystal's (I think it was Crystal) statement. In fact, I burst out laughing because it's just another of those outdated cliches that keeps coming up every now and then. I just wanted to post my testimony.

Maybe we had extraordinary nuns?

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:20 PM

[i]Originally posted by HarmNone

Upon what legal precedent are you basing the above, Lisu? Because he did not pay, you have a right to post? If he had paid, you would not have the right to post? This is ludicrous. You have the right to post whatever you choose to post, dear. This is not about entitlement, in my view. It is about responsibility. I do not demonize you. I find you irresponsible and immature.

What legal precedent are you saying there is about posting a log from an online roleplaying game about another imaginary character?

Everyone posts logs of other characters all the time. Hell, look around this site alone and you'll find 20 or 30 I'm sure.

I can understand your point about the other parts of your debate.. but this one has no legs to stand on.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 10:21 PM

Gah! I said I was sorry that I used my own experience as a statement! My god. LOL!

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Everyone posts logs of other characters all the time. Hell, look around this site alone and you'll find 20 or 30 I'm sure.

I can understand your point about the other parts of your debate.. but this one has no legs to stand on.

The reason I'm against her log is because it was a private session conducted behind closed doors and never did she mention to him (in that log) that she was going to post this for the world to see and criticize. I think there's a big difference. I'm not even fond of people post IM conversations if they didn't get the permission of the other person.

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 10:25 PM

<< What legal precedent are you saying there is about posting a log from an online roleplaying game about another imaginary character? >>

This type of misunderstanding is what happens when you don't fully read the contents of a post, heck when you don't fully read the section you're QUOTING!

Re-read what you quoted and you'll see that she's saying that posting a log about fictional characters isn't illegal at all and that it happens all the time. Lisu's the one who brought in all this crap about how she's justified in publically posting the log because Huka never paid.

HarmNone is saying, Lisu is legally justified to post the log even if Huka did pay. She's asking what legal precedent exists rhetorically, because NO precedent exists! The issue has nothing to do with precedent, the issue is whether it's in good taste and responsible to post a log that took place in private for the sole purpose of humiliating someone.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Kranar]

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by HarmNone

Again, we agree, CrystalTears. It is my belief that Simutronics' management needs to take a stand on this issue and quit riding the fence. They bear a heavy responsibility, to my mind.

Simutronics cannot control, nor can they ensure, who is on the other side of a monitor; however, they can control how they advertise their product.

HarmNone

So if they cannot control or ensure.. why do they have to stop riding the fence on this issue?

They are legally covered the way they currently are handling the issue. That's a fence they will probably ride forever... and should be.

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:29 PM

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by Kranar

This type of misunderstanding is what happens when you don't fully read the contents of a post, heck when you don't fully read the section you're QUOTING!

You are right.. I don't read most of your posts as they tend to be full of "I am better than you all" type of comments.

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 10:32 PM

<< You are right.. I don't read most of your posts as they tend to be full of "I am better than you all" type of comments. >>

The best way to go about that is to not respond to a post that you don't understand.

When you are incapable of reading a post and can understand the arguement being made, then any response you make is done in ignorance.

The fact that you think I'm talking about MY post shows how little you're willing to comprehend the contents of an arguement, when infact I'm refering to a post you quoted made by HarmNone in which you clearly illustrate your ignorance of the VERY quote you responded to.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Kranar]

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Parkbandit
[I post logs here all the time.. just because I'm not roleplaying a whore.. it's ok?

Double standard. I say let the slut post dammit!

There is NO double standard when I said that. I would say that whether it was a log of a couple "making love" and now the woman is scorned and is showing it off as revenge or something. Or perhaps a conversation that was had behind locked doors that had nothing to do with sex. The fact remains that it was a private session, even moreso because it was sexual in nature and done specifically to humiliate.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Because there ARE parents out there who don't mind or care what games their child plays, which is why I said it's up to the parent of whether they watch it or not. So even though there would be a statement saying that it's an adult game, a child could still be playing.

Which is precisely why I would abstain from such behaviors. No matter in what game you are sojourning, there is no guarantee that the person on the other side of the monitor is of legal age to consent. However, in some games, the very young simply do not do well and will not last long, in most cases.

No matter how adept they may be at text imaging, roleplay, etc., they retain certain characteristics peculiar to their age, and will not adapt well to some on-line environments. GemStone3 is not one of those environments. The mechanics, the ease of play, the vast number of players, among other things, make it a place where young kids feel they can compete and not be constantly outclassed by older players.

HarmNone

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
That simple.

Should the parent want to argue that their child should be able to play, and sign up another account, then lie during confirmation.... that's them.

Why should they? Where is your business sense man?

Come on.. for every new account, they now need to hire a telecommunications person to verify all accounts? For what reason? To make sure there are no 12 year olds cybering in a closed room with a 30 year old?

They are legally protected by their current terms and conditions. You are doing nothing but adding labor costs and potentially losing business.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 10:37 PM

Parkbandit, it's getting really tiring of seeing you taking pot shots at Kranar at every possible opportunity. He hasn't given an opinion to mean that he was better than anyone, just stating his opinion that he feels strongly about. This thread, although heated, has been able to be civil without taking shots at others for their opinions. Let's try to keep it that way. If you don't have anything constructive to say except to be insulting to him (again), please don't bother saying anything at all.

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by Kranar
<< You are right.. I don't read most of your posts as they tend to be full of "I am better than you all" type of comments. >>

The best way to go about that is to not respond to a post that you don't understand.

When you are incapable of reading a post and can understand the arguement being made, then any response you make is done in ignorance.

The fact that you think I'm talking about MY post shows how little you're willing to comprehend the contents of an arguement, when infact I'm refering to a post you quoted made by HarmNone in which you clearly illustrate your ignorance of the VERY quote you responded to.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Kranar]

Kranar,

All of your posts are full of self righteous, holier than thou attitude.. that they actually make me laugh.

Here's one now: :bouncy:

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Parkbandit, it's getting really tiring of seeing you taking pot shots at Kranar at every possible opportunity. He hasn't given an opinion to mean that he was better than anyone, just stating his opinion that he feels strongly about. This thread, although heated, has been able to be civil without taking shots at others for their opinions. Let's try to keep it that way. If you don't have anything constructive to say except to be insulting to him (again), please don't bother saying anything at all.

Oh bullshit. Reread most of his posts in this one topic. They all have the same underlying tone.

CrystalTears

08-23-2003, 10:42 PM

<sighs> Thanks for listening.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by Parkbandit
What legal precedent are you saying there is about posting a log from an online roleplaying game about another imaginary character?

Everyone posts logs of other characters all the time. Hell, look around this site alone and you'll find 20 or 30 I'm sure.

I can understand your point about the other parts of your debate.. but this one has no legs to stand on.

You misunderstood what I was saying, Parkbandit. Lisu had intimated that because Haku did not pay her, he was not a "client"; therefore, she had the "right" to publish the log to the internet...as though there was, in fact, some legal precedent for publishing or not publishing. I was simply saying that there was no such precedent, and that legality was not the issue.

Hope that clears it up for you. :)

HarmNone

imported_Kranar

08-23-2003, 10:53 PM

<< All of your posts are full of self righteous, holier than thou attitude.. that they actually make me laugh. >>

Nice potshot.

Keep em coming, you're doing a good job of dodging the issue.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Kranar]

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
The reason I'm against her log is because it was a private session conducted behind closed doors and never did she mention to him (in that log) that she was going to post this for the world to see and criticize. I think there's a big difference. I'm not even fond of people post IM conversations if they didn't get the permission of the other person.

I agree with CrystalTears here. The disagreement between Lisu and Haku could, and should, have been handled in-game, and in-character. As I have said before, I can think of several scenaria to play this out that would have been quite enjoyable! ;) When Lisu chose to take it out of game, she crossed a line, as far as I am concerned.

Most of the logs posted here are logs of events that happen publically. Anyone could have seen them had they been in the area. The log Lisu posted was one of private acts behind closed doors. The difference is privacy and the respect of same. Again, it is about personal responsibility, personal integrity, and a sense of honor.

HarmNone

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Parkbandit
So if they cannot control or ensure.. why do they have to stop riding the fence on this issue?

They are legally covered the way they currently are handling the issue. That's a fence they will probably ride forever... and should be.

They (Simutronics) do not *have* to do anything, Parkbandit. As you say, they are legally covered. However, in the opinion of some, myself included, Simutronics has a personal responsibility to its customers that reaches beyond legal issues. Must they recognize that responsibility? No. Should they? In my opinion, yes. You obviously hold a different opinion. By such is life made interesting.

HarmNone

Drew2

08-23-2003, 11:02 PM

Sad... this topic beat the Gracy one. And that one was more entertaining.

HarmNone

08-23-2003, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Why should they? Where is your business sense man?

Come on.. for every new account, they now need to hire a telecommunications person to verify all accounts? For what reason? To make sure there are no 12 year olds cybering in a closed room with a 30 year old?

They are legally protected by their current terms and conditions. You are doing nothing but adding labor costs and potentially losing business.

When looked at from a purely capitalistic viewpoint, Parkbandit, your stance holds true. However, when measured on a broader scale, it lacks substance. There is more to life, to some, than making money.

HarmNone

Kyle

08-23-2003, 11:49 PM

I'd just like to point out that it is a roleplaying game. We've gone eight pages without it.

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 11:50 PM

[i]Originally posted by HarmNone
You misunderstood what I was saying, Parkbandit. Lisu had intimated that because Haku did not pay her, he was not a "client"; therefore, she had the "right" to publish the log to the internet...as though there was, in fact, some legal precedent for publishing or not publishing. I was simply saying that there was no such precedent, and that legality was not the issue.

Hope that clears it up for you. :)

HarmNone

Ah, I did. Thanks HarmNone.

I still don't think her publishing the log has anything to do with this argument.. but I do understand now what you were saying.

Skirmisher

08-23-2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Kyle
I'd just like to point out that it is a roleplaying game. We've gone eight pages without it.

What are you talking about?:?:

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Why should they? Where is your business sense man?

Come on.. for every new account, they now need to hire a telecommunications person to verify all accounts? For what reason? To make sure there are no 12 year olds cybering in a closed room with a 30 year old?

They are legally protected by their current terms and conditions. You are doing nothing but adding labor costs and potentially losing business.

When looked at from a purely capitalistic viewpoint, Parkbandit, your stance holds true. However, when measured on a broader scale, it lacks substance. There is more to life, to some, than making money.

HarmNone

Not when it holds the possiblity of losing money for that business.

It's all nice, warm and fuzzy to believe it.. but you won't find many successful businesses the size of Simutronics taking a moral stand like that. What's their gain? A couple happy customers? At the possible expense of other paying customers?

They are fully covered under their current terms and conditions. There is no need to increase their expenses and risk their revenues for such moral searchings like this.

Parkbandit

08-23-2003, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by HarmNone

Originally posted by Parkbandit
So if they cannot control or ensure.. why do they have to stop riding the fence on this issue?

They are legally covered the way they currently are handling the issue. That's a fence they will probably ride forever... and should be.

They (Simutronics) do not *have* to do anything, Parkbandit. As you say, they are legally covered. However, in the opinion of some, myself included, Simutronics has a personal responsibility to its customers that reaches beyond legal issues. Must they recognize that responsibility? No. Should they? In my opinion, yes. You obviously hold a different opinion. By such is life made interesting.

HarmNone

I would guess you are in the minority on that. And again, we can go back to the business reasons not to...

I have 2 kids.. neither one will be playing this game in my house. I keep track of where they have been on the internet and don't expect a website to parent my kids. If they are on a website, I'll take a look at it. I'll look over their terms and conditions. If it says the user has to be 18, then we will have a quick discussion as to why I don't want them on that site.

Parkbandit

08-24-2003, 12:01 AM

Originally posted by Kranar
<< All of your posts are full of self righteous, holier than thou attitude.. that they actually make me laugh. >>

Nice potshot.

Keep em coming, you're doing a good job of dodging the issue.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Kranar]

I don't think there's a issue I've dodged here yet Kranar. What is the answer that you seek from me?

Parkbandit

08-24-2003, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by CrystalTears
<sighs> Thanks for listening.

Sorry darling.. I call em like I see em. :)

I still think you're a hottie though. :smug:

HarmNone

08-24-2003, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I have 2 kids.. neither one will be playing this game in my house. I keep track of where they have been on the internet and don't expect a website to parent my kids. If they are on a website, I'll take a look at it. I'll look over their terms and conditions. If it says the user has to be 18, then we will have a quick discussion as to why I don't want them on that site.

Would that all parents were as conscientious as you are. Alas, such is not the case.

HarmNone

Kyle

08-24-2003, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by Skirmisher

Originally posted by Kyle
I'd just like to point out that it is a roleplaying game. We've gone eight pages without it.

What are you talking about?:?:

Not everyone has cybersex to get off. Some people would like to roleplay their character in that situation. Being the player of an Ivasian, I can certainly understand this.

Tendarian

08-24-2003, 12:58 AM

Some people read playboy for the articles too.

HarmNone

08-24-2003, 01:21 AM

Gah! The last two posts, and Kyle's original, have left me hopelessly befuddled. Ale, please? Lots of ale.

HarmNone, aleing

Betheny

08-24-2003, 01:26 AM

I haven't been paying much attention to most of it, but I must say, you guys are doing a great job of debating. (Most of you, anyway.)

Tsa`ah

08-24-2003, 01:28 AM

Sucks being home for a break and not being able to respond to a few dozen posts.

Park... see, I gave you something to disagree with. My company has done the extra mile thing for customers. But you are right, we're 300 times the size of Simu, easily.

Till morning... keep the topic warm.

Kyle

08-24-2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by Tendarian
Some people read playboy for the articles too.

Wow, you're ignorant.

Kyle

08-24-2003, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by HarmNone
Gah! The last two posts, and Kyle's original, have left me hopelessly befuddled. Ale, please? Lots of ale.

HarmNone, aleing

I roleplay a character that has sex often, because my character's religion states that pleasure is foremost. Pleasure of most any sort, but sex mostly. Thus, I'm roleplaying the character having sex, and that's seen as 'cybering', not as roleplaying. I merely wish to offer to the debate that just because you like to have fun behind locked doors in GS, doesn't mean that you're one-hand-typing.

Vesi

08-24-2003, 01:55 AM

Originally posted by Kyle

I roleplay a character that has sex often, because my character's religion states that pleasure is foremost. Pleasure of most any sort, but sex mostly. Thus, I'm roleplaying the character having sex, and that's seen as 'cybering', not as roleplaying. I merely wish to offer to the debate that just because you like to have fun behind locked doors in GS, doesn't mean that you're one-hand-typing.

Which brings us back to Lisu roleplaying a prostitue. Gee, this thread is so long it's come full circle.

Vesi

HarmNone

08-24-2003, 02:00 AM

Can sexuality be roleplayed? Of course! Do I, personally, object to sexual encounters being roleplayed? Absolutely not. Some here may. I do not.
I do, however, believe that such roleplay has its proper place and should not involve those under the age of consent.

HarmNone, not prudish, but prudent

Kyle

08-24-2003, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by HarmNone
Can sexuality be roleplayed? Of course! Do I, personally, object to sexual encounters being roleplayed? Absolutely not. Some here may. I do not.
I do, however, believe that such roleplay has its proper place and should not involve those under the age of consent.

HarmNone, not prudish, but prudent

Well, I truthfully see nothing wrong with it at all. I don't however see how someone, or anyone, could condone to leaving someone under the age of consent out of their eyesight for more than a minute if they can't stand a little cybering or phonesex or erotic novels or what have you.

Of course, I'm a bit biased, since I only turn eighteen in a week, and I've been playing this character (yes, with the 'cybering' included) since I was 13.

Drew2

08-24-2003, 02:30 AM

I don't understand how at least 15 pages were filled with the same argument. I refuse to read every post on the grounds that the first dozen put me to sleep, but I would think simple statistics would prove that redundancy has/will occur/ed and that this thread probably needs to die. That, and it's not entertaining at all.

Parkbandit

08-24-2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Sucks being home for a break and not being able to respond to a few dozen posts.

Park... see, I gave you something to disagree with. My company has done the extra mile thing for customers. But you are right, we're 300 times the size of Simu, easily.

Till morning... keep the topic warm.

Heh... I do appreciate that btw.. :)

And I put in the size of Simutronics for that very reason. Companies like Microsoft, IBM, General Electric, etc... can sometimes make decisions that actually are "The right thing to do" because of their vast revenue sources.

But asking a company the size of Simutronics to do that isn't feasable.

Parkbandit

08-24-2003, 07:35 AM

Originally posted by Tayre
I don't understand how at least 15 pages were filled with the same argument. I refuse to read every post on the grounds that the first dozen put me to sleep, but I would think simple statistics would prove that redundancy has/will occur/ed and that this thread probably needs to die. That, and it's not entertaining at all.

To each their own. I personally didn't find the Gracy thread all that entertaining as I never interacted with her prior to that thread.

Call it boring if you must.. but at 17 pages, it's obviously entertaining to quite a few of us.

Ilvane

08-24-2003, 07:37 AM

17 pages of basically the same thing. I don't really know what all the hubub is about.

:shrug: I didn't get why the Gracy thread went on for a long time either. I guess it's like a train wreck--you can't help but look. Must explain why I am reading it..heh

-A

Skirmisher

08-24-2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by Ilvane

I guess it's like a train wreck--you can't help but look. Must explain why I am reading it..heh

-A

We've got a thread going about a train wreck? Where? Where?

Lisu

08-24-2003, 09:16 AM

Quote by Terrorize

There are atleast 2 others that I know of you killed Lisu, and if I see it something will be done. Anyways, I also was wondering why you are rude as hell to Empaths? I play one which has no problem with you but you sure seemed to have a problem with her. Not even a thank you for healing, anyone who doesn't give atleast a thank you are on my black list, unfortunately your the first I have come acrossed that I have put on this list. Even Klaive says thank you.

Okay, adressing the issues one by one.

1. I ALWAYS tip and thank empaths. I don't stick around long after healing, but I always tip and say 'thankee'. I tip about 200 each for minors and 400 each for bleeders. I track down empaths who heal me in the field and tip them later.

2. Please list these 'other people' I've killed. The only two people I have killed are Wichurana and one other who was script hunting.

Folks, this forum was about me posting the log, and yet somehow it has become simply a grounds for people to snipe at eachother about sex on the internet. To put it simply, if you leave a post-puberty male at a computer with an internet connection alone, can you honestly say he WON'T go look at pornography or some other 'dirty' site? And as such, your efforts to 'clean up the web' by 'getting rid of lisu' are not for the public benefit, they are just so you can feel good about yourself and pat yourself on the back.

And in a closing statement, I enjoy the roleplay aspects of sex in an atmosphere where there's longer effects than when the chat window is closed. Trust me, if I was just going for the 'cyber' experience I would have certaintly picked a better individual than Huka. Groan/moan/groan/moan/moan/moan/whimper/mona/groan, Hell I could write a script to cyber BETTER than Huka!

Soulpieced

08-24-2003, 09:24 AM

Since when are people supposed to tip empaths and clerics? I couldn't tell you the last time I did either. Think about it, you are BRINGING them experience. And in some rare cases, they actually get you. But regardeless, they are getting experience for an iota of the effort you put into hunting. Ug.

Artha

08-24-2003, 09:28 AM

I only tip lockpickers, and that's only because they're occasionally scarce in mule. But, I give them 1000 or so (5000 if me and a friend go hunting, and bring back 24 boxes), and 250 with my younger character.

CrystalTears

08-24-2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Tayre
I don't understand how at least 15 pages were filled with the same argument. I refuse to read every post on the grounds that the first dozen put me to sleep, but I would think simple statistics would prove that redundancy has/will occur/ed and that this thread probably needs to die. That, and it's not entertaining at all.

You know what, then don't read it and leave it to the people who are enjoying the debate without you entering to tell them how much you don't like it. There are LOTS of threads on these boards that I think are a waste of time to discuss and are simply stupid, but apparently some people are enjoying their discussion so I'm no one to step in to say otherwise. So respect the people who are enjoying the conversation and leave your own irrelevant posts at the door. Thanks.

CrystalTears

08-24-2003, 10:11 AM

Most of this discussion wouldn't have been had anyway if Simu could decide once and for all what type of game this is. It's either an adult game or it's a family game. You can't have both. You can't tell people you have to be 18 and over to open an account but any age to play if you're going to allow adult themes, especially those behind locked doors, to occur. Unless they're trying to say it's a family game with adult themes. As far as I'm concerced, this game has always been to me an R rated movie.

Artha

08-24-2003, 10:12 AM

You have to be 18 to open an account because you're not bound to a contract until you are 18. However, because they want money, and money is important, any age can play.

GSTamral

08-24-2003, 10:13 AM

<<
And in a closing statement, I enjoy the roleplay aspects of sex in an atmosphere where there's longer effects than when the chat window is closed. Trust me, if I was just going for the 'cyber' experience I would have certaintly picked a better individual than Huka. Groan/moan/groan/moan/moan/moan/whimper/mona/groan, Hell I could write a script to cyber BETTER than Huka!
>>

Just wanted to point out that the reason he was doing that was probably because he had only one hand available to him at the moment.

As for the enjoying sex thing. If this was your primary interest, there are several cheaper, and free venues in which you could do this. This would eliminate public clamor on the matter, and further remove an extreme end of a controversial subject matter. While I myself am somewhat ambivalent to the whole matter of "cybering", your more "extreme" antics (prostitution) are exactly what causes public discord because you flaunt it so.

Lisu

08-24-2003, 10:40 AM

So you're saying controversy is a bad thing? Would you want to play gemstone if every day was the same as the last? If everyone agreed on every issue? Controversy is good, it causes discussion and the challenging of old ideals, which is never a bad thing.

Artha

08-24-2003, 10:41 AM

Some controversy is good. Some is retarded.

I'll let you pick which kind I think this is.

Warriorbird

08-24-2003, 10:52 AM

I still think it's all just advertising. If you're not just about the money, step up your cybering quality and look for people who are GOOD at it...if you are? There's other better means than the black net and posting logs of csex on Player's Corner for advertising. Literally going, "on the prowl" would probably be a lot more effective.

Kailya

08-24-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Demon Lord Kage

Originally posted by SpunGirl
"Here in Florida alot of the strippers sell a blowjob for $10, and sex for $40, hehe I know cause we got one of my friends one for his Bachelor's party."

This is just my opinion, and I realize I've let a sensitive nerve get poked here, but that is FUCKING DISGUSTING. The friends who did that and the bachelor who agreed to it should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

-K

Agreed. Kill them.

Bachelors are NOT single. They have already made a commitment. Sex at a bachelor party is cheating. And infidelity should be punished by death. Period.

- --[ Klaive ]-- -

Everyone dies.... period.

08-24-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by Lisu
It is time for me to speak up.

STFU. You = Stupid.

- --[ Klaive ]-- -

Myshel

08-24-2003, 12:01 PM

As a parent and a long time player in GS I have to comment on these posts. First a few little stories:
As a newbie on my third day in the game I was befriended by a kindly Lord who "showed" me around. He took me to a locked room and with a script raped my character. As a adult I was shocked and grossed out. Simu's response? They gave me a trainings worth of experience! LOL.. Now I could have been a young girl or a old hag but I was never asked that question by either the predator or the game.
Second story: My brother (in game) was a young kid who got involved with another character, was in love and gushed constantly about his love, an older player, whom he wanted to marry. One day he came to me and was very upset, crying and wanting to leave the game. The older character had seduced him, he was 13 in real life and just found out the "woman" he loved was a man in real life. He was totally messed up, he left the game and I don't know what happened to him.
I could tell story after story as most of you could about this sort of thing.
There are real consequences to our actions with impressionable kids. Should they be there? Its our responsibility to know that our actions do affect others. I know because I learned the hard way. My actions have affected others in a real way, being sorry doesn't take away the pain. This game is fantasy, but our responsibilities lie in the way we treat others, knowing that there are real people behind the fantasy, with real feelings.
Would I let my kids play GS? The kids computer is in the family room and I keep a watch when the kids are on. NO I wouldn't pay to have them play, they have to much going on in their life's to be sucked into the addiction. I've seen too many kids and adults become addicted to this game and 'it' become their real life, instead of interacting with friends and family. I was addicted for a few years and I was here 12 out of 24 hours, it played havoc in my life. I don't wish the same for my kids.
Myshel

Myshel

08-24-2003, 12:19 PM

One more thing before I put my soapbox away.. What the hell is more disgusting than a woman selling her "talents", is selling them without at least trying to determine their age. I know the internet has become the magazine under the mattresses for many teens. Watching MTV and even commercials these days are very sexually orientated. Our children know a lot more about sex and are curious, but any adult that caters to sexual curiousity and adolescent wet dreams are still pedators.
Myshel

Lisu

08-24-2003, 12:29 PM

In response to the 'advertising', I find this hilarious. My running the 'ads' has reached about three clients. The rest all came from people like those on this forum, talking about me, exagerating what I perform, etc. They hear the rumor, and come to me for clarification. In conclusion, thank you very much for all this advertising, I couldn't be making an in-game living without all you folks loudly badmouthing me.

Drew2

08-24-2003, 02:06 PM

Lisu = Gracy.

It makes sense to me.

Betheny

08-24-2003, 02:17 PM

Gee, the rest of us seem to do just fine at 'making a living' without fucking whoever hasa 7-figure bank account.

Or can you not live without your fancy items? Are they that important to you? Or are you just one of those people that needs the attention?

Adhara

08-24-2003, 02:55 PM

I don't get the impression that she does it for the money. I haven't yet made up my mind as to what her real motivations are but money doesn't seem to be it. If anything, I'd say her high prices are a way to attract more (young) people. I can hear them thinking from here... "damn she's confident she's worth that much... I wonder how good she really is..." and so, even if just out of curiosity, they might have a look. Even if they don't come back (dare I say, especially if you don't expect them to come back) a high price works in her favor.

If I was satisfied that Lisu is roleplayed adequately, I have been extremely disappointed by the appallingly irresponsible reactions of Lisu's player. I was hoping that she had not considered all the angles. I know I hadn't. Then again I never considered playing a whore.

I still hope that Lisu's player will reconsider her position, perhaps when all this has died down.

Edit: Bah I should proof-read for typos before I post :rolleyes:

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Adhara]

Scott

08-24-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Lisu
In response to the 'advertising', I find this hilarious. My running the 'ads' has reached about three clients. The rest all came from people like those on this forum, talking about me, exagerating what I perform, etc. They hear the rumor, and come to me for clarification. In conclusion, thank you very much for all this advertising, I couldn't be making an in-game living without all you folks loudly badmouthing me.

Then why not stop advertising? Then people who don't want to hear it, don't have too. Since you have a never-ending list, stop advertising.......

Betheny

08-24-2003, 03:27 PM

What would we complain about then?

Scott

08-24-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Maimara
What would we complain about then?

From the tons of other threads in Gemstone complaints, I'm sure someone can come up with something.

EDIT: Besides, if I have too, I'll go start trouble in Icemule so I can see it get posted here.

[Edited on 8-24-2003 by Gemstone101]

Artha

08-24-2003, 03:32 PM

From the tons of other threads in Gemstone complaints, I'm sure someone can come up with something.

We can always make fun of people with stupid names :)

HarmNone

08-24-2003, 03:46 PM

Myshel, I imagine it was difficult for you to post as you did. It is never easy to bare old hurts to the world, whether those hurts were yours, or those of one you care about.

I am truly sorry for your in-game brother's player. No child deserves to be treated in such a way. He knew no better, and was made to pay a price far too high for one so young. The individual who used him in such a dispicable fashion is beneath contempt, as was the player who took advantage of you as a new player.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Perhaps those thoughts will make others think, as well. Harm can be done, knowingly and unknowingly. If it is done knowingly, there is no excuse.

Blessed be, Myshel, and peace to your young friend.

HarmNone

Tsa`ah

08-24-2003, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Lisu
Folks, this forum was about me posting the log, and yet somehow it has become simply a grounds for people to snipe at eachother about sex on the internet.

Absolutely incorrect.

It evolved into a debate about adult indiscretion when it comes to minors, sexual content, and a role-playing environment. Specifically your indiscretion and those that chose to role-play prostitutes.

To put it simply, if you leave a post-puberty male at a computer with an internet connection alone, can you honestly say he WON'T go look at pornography or some other 'dirty' site?

This was never in question. When this discussion took the turn towards Simu's responsibilities to their customer's and their advertising methods. The argument was, and still is, should Simu advertise their products as "Family-oriented" while characters such as yours offer service un-hindered?

If a parent let his/her child visit a Disney.com chat room or forum, they would not, and should not expect a Lisu to offer them a knob-job and wild shagging for a 50 Mickey bucks. Thus a parent allowing their child to use Simu's "Family-oriented" services are not expecting a Lisu to offer their child a kob-job and rolton sheering for a million silver.

You take advantage of Simu's "family" stance by offering your services, knowingly or not. You are aware of the family setting, the virtual populace controlled by minors, yet still offer to suck the almighty "P" and ride the pony when that gets boring. Not caring for a minute whether the person on the other end has grown pubes or not.

THAT IS WHAT THIS DEBATE IS ABOUT!!!!!!!!

And as such, your efforts to 'clean up the web' by 'getting rid of lisu' are not for the public benefit, they are just so you can feel good about yourself and pat yourself on the back.

Again you display an inability to comprehend.

As many have stated, and I'll state again, the issue is not with porn. The issue is not cybersex. The issue is not adult forms of entertainment. The issue is not, nor has ever been, removing these things from the internet. Nor has it been removing you. It has been about IN-D-FUCKING-SCRETION!!!! GEEZUS!!!!!!!!

It has been so incredibly redundant this whole thread. Even a dog will learn not to shit on the rug if you rub its nose in it enough times. Do lack the basic intelligence of a dog?

And in a closing statement, I enjoy the role-play aspects of sex in an atmosphere where there's longer effects than when the chat window is closed. Trust me, if I was just going for the 'cyber' experience I would have certaintly picked a better individual than Huka. Groan/moan/groan/moan/moan/moan/whimper/mona/groan, Hell I could write a script to cyber BETTER than Huka!

I personally think it's for selling the excess silver on e-bay. That's just me.

No one has a problem with Lisu. We do have a problem about you, the player's indiscretion.

Skipping fucking record.

Betheny

08-24-2003, 07:25 PM

Were you a parent, and you found out that your child had been engaging in illicit sexual activities within Gemstone, what would you do?

And do you think you would sue?

CrystalTears

08-24-2003, 07:39 PM

The thing is I would have played Gemstone before I allowed my child to play, or least learned about what goes on inside. If I saw that sexual innuendo and themes were present (and it doesn't take long to find those), and I was against those things for my child, I wouldn't allow him to play.

Even if he did manage to find a way to play, I wouldn't sue because it was my fault for allowing him to log in. I would complain to Simu that they are not being forthcoming in their advertising and code of conduct that adult themes are not allowed yet are if done privately. I would also sit my child down and speak with him very seriously about what went on so that he has an understanding and will know that I am available to talk to him about it.

Besides I think suing people in general is just lame.

Weedmage Princess

08-24-2003, 07:44 PM

That's a good question, Maimara...I honestly don't know what I'd do. Luckily, I know enough about what goes on with the Internet, so when my lil guy comes of age, I know what to look for, what to check...I also plan to have him involved in lots of activities...to the point that his time/interest to poke around the Internet will be very limited.

I do realize that Simu advertises this game as "family oriented" ..anyone who has any kind of experience with this game knows that there's no way in HELL this game gets a G rating, not even a PG-13 rating. Like mentioned before...you take a walk around the Landing and swing by the Gaming Hall or by the Bathhouse and bother to read the room descriptions...or better yet, wander up the stairs in Silvergate...you KNOW you're not in Disneyland. Simu is at fault, but if little 11 year old Timmy is spending hours upon hours playing Gemstone...his parents should atleast be wise enough to say "maybe I better take a good look and see what this Gemstone is all about.."

Betheny

08-24-2003, 07:48 PM

I guess I think, if a game is considered E for Everyone, they ought to police the goings-on a bit better.

I feel parents have a huge responsibility in tracking their kids, but being fairly young myself and having played Gemstone in my younger days and participated in questionable activities, I think if a product is offered as Gemstone is, there ought to be some sort of warning.

Another thought I had is, how can you rate a game like Gemstone? The gameplay and content changes with every person that walks in your room...

Back

08-24-2003, 08:11 PM

Something ironic about all this is that Player's Corner has lifted the bar on strong language, language not allowed in Gemstone, yet serves the same possibly under age people. Notice also the language here is stronger than in Lisu's log.

After thinking about this for a while, I still understand some people's concerns but honestly do not feel Lisu fits into the category some are trying to put her in, for various reasons. No doubt, there are real predetors lurking around Gemstone, who you would never know about because I doubt they would advertise their intent.

In some posts, it seems people would have adults not be sexual at all, for fear of scarring children. Were adults to fully restrict this so that no child would ever be exposed to anything remotely sexual would leave us all like amish. While I have no children, I do want some, and I want them to know that sex is a good, healthy thing. And no, I don't want them molested, and I'll do everything in my power to prevent that.

And I still think the guy who ripped her off is the real criminal here.

SpunGirl

08-24-2003, 08:25 PM

Simu states in its "Letter to Parents" that things are safe, non-dirty, that they watch the goings-on, et cetera.

We all know there are places they don't watch, and we also know that some of us feel love, sex, and other related actions are valid roleplaying choices.

The question is, where is the line drawn? Should Simu enforce a no-sexuality atmosphere that doesn't allow any of these things to take place, or should they just make Lisu stop advertising out loud and let her go on in peace?

I don't have the answers, I'm not sure what I think. Actually, I think it would be best if they assumed all players were 18+ and ran the game that way.

-K

CrystalTears

08-24-2003, 08:31 PM

True, some children could be accessing this site. However, we don't charge people a monthly cost to visit, just because the board has Gemstone in the title doesn't mean that our views have any relation to Simu's views, and our TOS doesn't state anything about age limit on reading, since this is free to access. Not saying that some of our conduct is condoned or good at times, but we're not focused to be anything but an information message board for a game we happen to play. Heck we're not even linked to Gemstone on their link site.

Besides, the language she used was never really in question here. It was her intent to do as she wished without thinking of the repercussions of her actions. If she wants to play a wanton woman, that's her choice, but she has no need to say anything on the net about it, nor post logs of it on the internet specifically to humiliate another, a session that was clearly a private one.

People have been basically saying for her to use discretion in her methods and she's blatently said no, simply because a GM hasn't warned or banned her yet. And it's attitudes as such that we continue to have people who act any way they want and stand behind the stance of "well they haven't warned me yet". Well wow, that's not the point and you know it. Just riding that line until you do get warned and/or banned, so don't act surprised when it happens.

[Edited on 8/25/2003 by CrystalTears]

Scott

08-24-2003, 08:32 PM

Something ironic about all this is that Player's Corner has lifted the bar on strong language, language not allowed in Gemstone, yet serves the same possibly under age people. Notice also the language here is stronger than in Lisu's log.

Gemstone says:

At Simutronics, we care about promoting a family atmosphere that can allow players of all ages to participate in and enjoy our games. Day and night our GameMasters monitor for public incidents of vulgarity, sexually explicit language, unlawful conduct and harassment.

PC does not say anything about that. It is said nothing is prescreened and anything can show up on the site. Censorship will not be an issue.

Gemstone says it is promoting a family atmosphere. PC does not.

Back

08-24-2003, 08:42 PM

Something ironic about all this is that Player's Corner has lifted the bar on strong language, language not allowed in Gemstone, yet serves the same possibly under age people. Notice also the language here is stronger than in Lisu's log.

This was not intended as a slam on Player's Corner. I love it here and have been with it since its inception. It was meant to point to the argument of responsibility, which I do agree with. Its like when I'm out with my friends, and we are bullshitting or whatever, and there is a kid around, I'll watch my language.

Its easy to forget that there are people under age who read these and other boards, and play Gemstone and other games, because of the annonymity of the internet. It is a valid point raised and everyone should use discretion as best they can.

SpunGirl

08-24-2003, 09:15 PM

"Its easy to forget that there are people under age who read these and other boards, and play Gemstone and other games, because of the annonymity of the internet. It is a valid point raised and everyone should use discretion as best they can."

That's not what we're discussing here. It's not likely that a fellow poster here on these boards will try to seduce me in board messages, not knowing if I am of an appropriate age for something like that.

That COULD happen in the game, however, and probably does. Is Lisu responsible for checking on this? Are any of us? If we could assume Simu was enforcing an adults-only environment, we wouldn't have to worry about it.

-K

imported_Kranar

08-24-2003, 10:05 PM

"At Simutronics, we care about promoting a family atmosphere that can allow players of all ages to participate in and enjoy our games. Day and night our GameMasters monitor for public incidents of vulgarity, sexually explicit language, unlawful conduct and harassment."

Thanks for pointing that out.

With that statement, and the Letter to Parents, and the fact that the game is rated E by the ESRB, I find it extremely lame that anyone would still try and hide behind the excuse of a poorly misunderstood technicality hidden with a mumbo-jumbo lawyer talk contract.

[Edited on 8-25-2003 by Kranar]

HarmNone

08-24-2003, 10:18 PM

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
It has been about IN-D-FUCKING-SCRETION!!!! GEEZUS!!!!!!!!

Errm, I had intended to respond to Lisu's post myself; however, Tsa'ah has done it again! It may not be eloquently said, Tsa'ah, and it might not be politely said. It is, however, well said! :D

HarmNone, still laughing

Artha

08-24-2003, 11:17 PM

Simple solution: Send a few letters to Melissa. Tell her what you think, and justify your position. She does read her e-mails, and I'm sure something like this would get her attention, even if only 5 or 6 of you do it.

Weedmage Princess

08-25-2003, 12:42 AM

Hey, here's this for a twist....

What if the PLAYER of Lisu is really a 13 year old boy?! Little Johnny from down the block got into mommy's trashy romance novels and is going apeshit in Gem with it???

....it could be...you never know!

Myshel

08-25-2003, 08:24 AM

I think I answered this question earlier about letting my children play GS but I think I should clarify. My kids are all teenagers so when they began logging on to the net I had long talks with them about the dangers of the internet and the perv's who live there. When they were young teens I restricted their access and when they proved more mature I lifted it. Yes my son did access porn sites which I checked out when I would periodically checked the history. Which I talked to him about. Yes my daughter did start a conversation with an unknown, which I caught looking over her shoulder one day. The point is I was involved and could help them see the dangers of things. One thing I firmly believe in, is NO computers in the bedrooms, they share the family one in a room where everyone is congregated most of the time. A computer niche in the family room. I point out articles to them about the dangers of talking to strangers not just on the street but in cyber land. Could they still get in trouble, sure but they know the dangers and are wise to it.
Would I let them play GS.. well I won't pay for it. As my stated reasons before its not because of sexual activity in GS but because I believe it can become addictive for certain people. The kids have part time jobs now and if they wanted to they could pay for it themselves but they would rather go see a movie with their friends.
Myshel

Artha

08-25-2003, 08:57 AM

Oh, I thought of a good way to check ages for the most part last nite, just so you're sure they're not 13.

Ask them which side of the car the brake (or gas) peddle is on...if they have to think for more than a second or two, they're probably not old enough to be cybering.

Edaarin

08-25-2003, 09:00 AM

What if they're from NY or some other place where not everyone drives?

theotherjohn

08-25-2003, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by Artha
Oh, I thought of a good way to check ages for the most part last nite, just so you're sure they're not 13.

Ask them which side of the car the brake (or gas) peddle is on...if they have to think for more than a second or two, they're probably not old enough to be cybering.

Hell I had to think about that. The whole brake in between the clutch and gas had me confusified

Artha

08-25-2003, 09:02 AM

Everyone goes through driver's ed. in school, as far as I know.

[Edited on 8-25-2003 by Artha]

CrystalTears

08-25-2003, 10:00 AM

Okay that's fine and all, but people start driving at the age of 15. Are you saying that as long as they can drive a car they can drive her too? :D

Artha

08-25-2003, 10:02 AM

lol!

It keeps the 12/13/14 year olds out, for the most part, if nothing else.

Kyle

08-25-2003, 11:29 AM

I'm turning eighteen in a week and I haven't taken drivers ed. They want three hundred dollars for it, and why would I need a car in college, when everything's within walking distance?

Artha

08-25-2003, 11:30 AM

Do you live in the US? It's a required 10th grade course here, it just takes the part of the first symester of gym.

And, to clarify, I mean the class, not getting behind the wheel.

Kyle

08-25-2003, 11:36 AM

Yes. Chicago.. and it isn't required for us. The class or getting behind the wheel. Also, I was.. 14 for part of my first semester of gym, so I couldn't really drive.

Artha

08-25-2003, 11:43 AM

Must be a Virginia thing, I guess...or Chicago's wierd.

Still, some sort of question like that could work well.

Terrorize

08-25-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Kranar
"At Simutronics, we care about promoting a family atmosphere that can allow players of all ages to participate in and enjoy our games. Day and night our GameMasters monitor for public incidents of vulgarity, sexually explicit language, unlawful conduct and harassment."

Thanks for pointing that out.

With that statement, and the Letter to Parents, and the fact that the game is rated E by the ESRB, I find it extremely lame that anyone would still try and hide behind the excuse of a poorly misunderstood technicality hidden with a mumbo-jumbo lawyer talk contract.

[Edited on 8-25-2003 by Kranar]

Notice also they say public. So therefore it is a 'Family' game until you go somewhere private. Maybe Simu should make this clear to parents as well.

Terrorize

08-25-2003, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Lady Daina
When I was in High School, in Upstate NY, Driver's Ed was not required. It was obviously something most people wanted to take, but not everyone had to... or got to. Of course this was a few years ago now ::stare:: but to my knowledge it still isn't required there.

And all I can say is, if I've ever seen a state that Drivers Ed SHOULD be required in, it's in Oklahoma. Never spent any time in Virginia but maybe you guys just really *need* it there? :P (Note the tongue-in-cheek here)

Anyway, I for one drove for the first time at the age of 12 (long story, don't ask) so while the idea is a decent one, it's not foolproof either. Too bad there isn't some technology that could allow for a method of checking ages with no chance of error. Like, retinal scans or something. Heh.

Actually I maybe from florida, I drive pretty damn good, But damn it should be required here. The people in florida are by far the Worst drivers I have ever seen. Specially in Jacksonville.

peam

08-25-2003, 12:58 PM

Driver's education in 10th grade is a Virginia thing.

GemstoneFan

08-25-2003, 01:10 PM

Dallas drivers make Oklahoma drivers look tame :bounce:

Don't get on their tollways unless your car can merge doing 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, heheh

Tsa`ah

08-25-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by GemstoneFan
Dallas drivers make Oklahoma drivers look tame :bounce:

Don't get on their tollways unless your car can merge doing 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, heheh

You do realize to accelerate that fast, one would need a vehicle that generated 300hp or more at the flywheel. (a P'911 can do it in 4.3)

But for the actual subject at hand.

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Hey, here's this for a twist....

What if the PLAYER of Lisu is really a 13 year old boy?! Little Johnny from down the block got into mommy's trashy romance novels and is going apeshit in Gem with it???

....it could be...you never know!

I think it would be worth the cost of admission to see the clientele's collective faces when they heard the news.

Seriously though, mom and dad would have to be beaten severely for that particular neglect.

HarmNone, still laughing

Re-reading it, I gave myself chuckles.... half a day later. Normally I try and be more reserved, but her bucking the issue and trying to redirect it just agitated the hell out of me. Perhaps she's really a politician?

Originally posted by Maimara
Were you a parent, and you found out that your child had been engaging in illicit sexual activities within Gemstone, what would you do?

And do you think you would sue?

First and foremost, I would not allow either of my children to be in such a position, let alone play this game before they are 16 years of age.

My eldest participates in web-games such as Neo-pets. With all the parental controls in place, were I to find out that she had been participating in illicit activities of any kind, and the service knew such things went on. Yet not bothered to let the parents know... I would sue them bankrupt and jobless. I would then turn around and donate any cash received to the abused children fund and other similar charities.

With Simu's letter and TOS, they are giving parents a false sense of security. The parents are, and will always be, responsible and culpable for their children's actions. Simu still has the responsibility to represent their product honestly. This is not being done.

Originally posted by Kranar
Thanks for pointing that out.

With that statement, and the Letter to Parents, and the fact that the game is rated E by the ESRB, I find it extremely lame that anyone would still try and hide behind the excuse of a poorly misunderstood technicality hidden with a mumbo-jumbo lawyer talk contract.

[Edited on 8-25-2003 by Kranar]

I generally don't pay attention to ratings, or the groups that supply the ratings. Case in point was the Disney version of Tarzan. Because it said "Disney", whoever smokes crack and hands out the ratings gave them a "G". Since then, I completely ignore rating systems such as that. You explain to a pair of children under the age of 5 why the gorilla got shot.

However, it would be interesting to see what that ratings group would have to say about SIMU and their "E" rating if they received some directs here and to the "Lisu slurp slurp" log.

HarmNone

08-25-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
Re-reading it, I gave myself chuckles.... half a day later. Normally I try and be more reserved, but her bucking the issue and trying to redirect it just agitated the hell out of me. Perhaps she's really a politician?

Gah! That would fit, would it not? Makes me shudder to think of the likes of Lisu leading the masses. :o

I have yet to see Lisu do other than redirect the conversation when the time comes to accept personal responsibility for her actions. It seems she just does not want to go there. :)

Still, Tsa'ah, thanks for the laugh. Your way of stating the obvious was brilliant!

HarmNone, on an editing craze

[Edited on 8-25-2003 by HarmNone]

[Edited on 8-25-2003 by HarmNone]

imported_Kranar

08-25-2003, 04:32 PM

You know Tsa'ah, that's a good idea.

If Simu doesn't care about protecting children from predators, then let's see what the ESRB has to say about it.

HarmNone

08-25-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Kranar
You know Tsa'ah, that's a good idea.

If Simu doesn't care about protecting children from predators, then let's see what the ESRB has to say about it.

Are there not internet groups that actively seek out sexually predatory adults? I wonder if these groups know about GemStone3...

HarmNone, pondering

Terrorize

08-26-2003, 06:37 AM

hehe. I smell tuna, I smell fish, I smell Lisu's nasty dish.:rolleyes:

Lisu

08-26-2003, 12:43 PM

Well folks, you've won. Apparently many of you sent in Emails accusing me of doing various things that I clearly did not. At least one person out there has a dozen or so email accounts because the GMs I spoke to said they recieved a dozen emails about me giving someone a blowjob in town square. Now this is COMPLETELY false, but hey, a dozen emails. So you folks are so completely determined to enforce your will upon those in the game. So be it. You've won, I'll find a different RPG. Perhaps one with slightly more mature people. Maybe counterstrike, at least you know where the people in that game stand.

CrystalTears

08-26-2003, 12:52 PM

I'm sorry to hear that, although your actions were bothering lots of people, whether they actually happened or not. You were doing enough real things to entice people enough to email Simu about it.

If you really are into the cyber thing, I'm sure I can find a few muds, even one that I play in, that you would enjoy. Understand though, that even if you find an adult game, as long as it says explicitly that sexual themes are allowed, sexual advances aren't usually appreciated unless requested.

Good luck wherever you go.

StrayRogue

08-26-2003, 12:59 PM

Hey Lisu, I still have that cleaver if you want it. I for one have found interacting with you to be totally fine and acceptable. Ignore the drones.

Weedmage Princess

08-26-2003, 01:15 PM

Hmm. Wow.

Ulg

08-26-2003, 01:26 PM

Lisu, sorry to hear it. Going to miss us dicing ogres. Its a sad day.

Scott

08-26-2003, 01:27 PM

I'm glad you are gone. I don't like that people had to make up lies to accomplish that, but I'm very happy you will no longer be in the lands as Lisu, of coarse your other character will...... Either way, it's a great afternoon!

Parkbandit

08-26-2003, 02:35 PM

I still think it can be roleplayed effectively in this game... and I think you did good once you got into the room and all.

I just don't think you accepted the criticism well enough to be effective at it. To make me believe your character actually was a prostitute... and normally, it doesn't take much to do that as I am generally an open guy.

If you roleplay a whore.. you can't get angry everytime someone calls you one.

AnticorRifling

08-26-2003, 02:35 PM

StrayRogue

08-26-2003, 02:39 PM

This game, I find, is full of niches and cliches. The olds, the uber rpers, the Hearthstoners, the Richies, Ardenai Temple Knights, Cul de Sacers, etc. And when you piss one group off...you may as well leave.

Gemstone is populated with a huge number of insecure people who feel that making the lives of others harder, they themselves can feel better about the retarded funk they themselves are en-meshed within. But hey, as is life.

Its like Warclaidhm; Everyone rags on this little guy (well for good reason, he is a little stupid), but how many of you actually go up to him in game with an open mind? I totally confess when I encountered him, I was instantly on the defensive, just looking for an excuse to waste him. All because of what I'd heard.

Well, this new occurance is exactly the same. Lisu, you weren't the best Rper. But you never gave me any shit, never went OOC or anything. Its a shame people have to be the way they are. Good luck.

Tsa`ah

08-26-2003, 02:49 PM

Those e-mails would be an interesting read to say the least. I for one haven't sent off my e-mail to Melissa yet. Thus far it has nothing to do with Lisu's actions. It has more to do with Simu's stance on "Family orientation".

My goal in this topic has never been to run off Lisu, but for Lisu's player to show some concern and discretion.

I find it ironic that to this day you have not really done either, yet hit the road blaming everyone but yourself.

Where ever you go, I hope you show some discretion and enjoy yourself. Just don't be surprised if the same thing happens when you play a "Family" game.

Don't let that virtual door hit you in the ass... it may damage the goods.

StrayRogue

08-26-2003, 02:51 PM

People who think GS is a family game, or who actively campaign to make it more Disneyfied, should be fuck off and play Phantasy Star.

Artha

08-26-2003, 02:53 PM

Good bye, and good riddance.

Tsa`ah

08-26-2003, 02:57 PM

Originally posted by StrayRogue
People who think GS is a family game, or who actively campaign to make it more Disneyfied, should be fuck off and play Phantasy Star.

I never said GS should be a family game. ADD much?

If it has not been cleared up by this point let me be a skipping fucking record again.

Simu needs to:
A) Move the game be in sync with it's advertising methods (i.e.; letter the parents, "E" rating, TOS)
B) Change advertising methods to better represent the product. (I.e.; ditch the letter, re-write the TOS, apply for an "Adult" rating.

Understand now? Or do I need to get your meds first?

Parkbandit

08-26-2003, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by StrayRogueIts like Warclaidhm; Everyone rags on this little guy (well for good reason, he is a little stupid), but how many of you actually go up to him in game with an open mind? I totally confess when I encountered him, I was instantly on the defensive, just looking for an excuse to waste him. All because of what I'd heard.

LORD knows I have tried to deal with Warclaidhm... but after 3 years of him simply not learning much of anything.. I basically gave up trying to help and put all my efforts towards simply making fun of him.

It's less frustrating.

CrystalTears

08-26-2003, 03:09 PM

I certainly was never about running Lisu out of the game. I too was of the opinion that Simu should choose a fence.. either the game is adult or it's family, it can't be both because there are children to think of. Notice that most of the arguments have been about having some decorum for the children's sake, and she blatently ignored the requests. And by Gemstone policy (heh) it states that any roleplaying that interferes and conflicts with the majority's interests, it is considered disruptive.

Personally, I wish they'd decide it's an adult game and make it less Disneyfied. Making things player-friendly irritates me.

StrayRogue

08-26-2003, 03:13 PM

Gore, slaying, mass attempted genocide, evil regilions, thievery, half races, and some people get a little antsy when a prostitute comes about. Heh. Fucking losers.

Tsa`ah

08-26-2003, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Gore, slaying, mass attempted genocide, evil regilions, thievery, half races, and some people get a little antsy when a prostitute comes about. Heh. Fucking losers.

Thus the violence rating. Parents who have a problem with the violence aspect can make a choice. Those parents who are OK with the virtual violence, may have serious issues with sexually explicit content.

Again, you display an inability to comprehend.

Artha

08-26-2003, 03:17 PM

If I were watching the gore, the slaying, the evil religions sacrifice children, and watching the attempted genocide...then I don't think I'd be bothered.

And hey, when's the last time you saw somethings brains leaking out for 10 minutes as you slowly moved your stick of war in and out of that giant hole in it's chest?

StrayRogue

08-26-2003, 03:19 PM

No, the problem pretty much lies with perceptions and censorship. The US has a shit system. You can see someone getting shot, or have their brains beat out, but never breasts, or anything explicit like that. GS, is very american in this respect. Prudes.

Kurili

08-26-2003, 03:19 PM

I'm going to miss you poaching my kills in warfs like I miss a kick in the teeth. Don't do this boo hoo crap when you know you were doing stuff that the majority of the populus didn't approve of. I could care less what you do behind locked doors but don't advertise like you did on the net. 1 that's asking for a pimp to put the back of the hand at you because you don't have protection. 2 It showed little class. 3 Learn to hunt I can't count the times you walked in, killed, searched, moved with out a word...(and I wasn't playing Anticor at the time)
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Add chasing critters that left the room while I was in RT, and that's what my char was treated to. I mean, she came into a room, watched my char swing, ran after the critter...you get the idea. And when I said something, and admittedly, did try to airwall her, and yes it is an attack, that's when Wichurana bit it. By the way, Lisu....I do not have access to other, older chars. Obviously, Dargius is not mine, or I wouldnt still have Wichurana in GS. And I do. Just another misleading statement, or out and out mistruth.

Almost makes you wonder if ten people who wrote Simu about an alleged blowjob were all lying, doesnt it? Someone was, I dont care to guess who. I just dont see that RP being suitable with kids here.