MSNBC Chris Hayes I'm 'Uncomfortable' Calling Fallen Military 'Heroes'

[Parkbandit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHQluNyJgxQ

WTF?

I don't agree with much of what Ann Coulter says, but I do agree with her tweet:

“Chris Hayes ‘Uncomfortable’ Calling Fallen Military ‘Heroes’ – Marines respond by protecting his right to menstruate” - Ann Coulter

[Drew]

I'm sure this kind of thinking appeals to a fair proportion of the kind of people who watch MSNBC.

[Tgo01]

He's uncomfortable calling them "heroes" because that might lead to more wars? Did I understand him right? Did this guy suffer a recent blow to the head? Does anyone really think "Wow that guy in the military who died sure was a hero...speaking of heroes lets have more wars!"

[Latrinsorm]

First of all, if we put 1/10th of the effort we use to universally and uncritically glorify the fallen into helping the survivors, we would all be a lot better off.

His point, I believe, is why do we have this glorification? and why is it so sacrosant and unquestionable? Compare it to how we treat abortion. Did each of us individually sit down and think "yeah, you know what, dead soldiers deserve accolades", or are we as a group being crassly manipulated? In the case of abortion, for votes and politicians, in the case of memorialization, for the military-industrial complex. Just because you think a thing doesn't mean you thought up that thing.

We could think about it, or we could call him a pussy.

[Gelston]

I did think about. I have concluded he needs to shut the fuck up. Having served over there, in both places, you are damn right the fallen are heroes. They enlisted, got commissioned, whatever into the Military of this country to protect your freedoms. They died in the course of their duty. Just because there is controversy involved from or involvement in those two countries does not negate their sacrifices.

On that same token, I also consider police, firefighters, and others who have fallen in the line of duty to be heroes as well.

Then again, it is because of fallen military heroes that he has the right to say such things. So I guess he can say whatever he feels.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

In response to Latrinsorm: I'm somewhat torn on this. Wall of text incoming.

I do dislike that being in the armed forces is many times used as a positive indictment on a person, and that's just not true. There are enormous, waste-of-space douchebags in every walk of life, and being in the Navy or the Marines or the Army doesn't negate it if a person is a huge douchebag who just happens to be in that walk of life. I don't like the idea a lot of people have that because a person spent time or is spending time in the military, they're "untouchable". Same way I feel about cops, etc.

That being said... I come from a military family and I see and know first hand just how big the consequences of war and service in the military are on not just the soldiers, but the families and loved ones and community at large. A soldier isn't an island.. a soldier is not out there operating alone, a soldier is operating in a massive sea of brothers and sisters at arms, who, when it comes down it, have pledged their lives and well beings for the interests of our country and thus, us, the citizens of the country. To me, the praising of fallen soldiers as "heroes" has less to do with the individuals (which is not to say that most soldiers end up KIA doing incredibly heroic and courageous things) but more a praise of that sea as a whole.. a small way that those of us who don't serve and won't have to experience the hell that is war on the front lines, let every man and woman in our armed services know that we recognize them and respect them and appreciate them for their service. That if they do end up paying the ultimate price they've promised to pay, their life, that it won't be unappreciated. I can see refusing to call certain fallen soldiers heroes because of their behavior, but I can't see wholesale boycotting the practice of honoring the people in our armed forces who die during the call of duty, in the name of our country.

[4a6c1]

What a shitbird.

[Tgo01]

His point, I believe, is why do we have this glorification? and why is it so sacrosant and unquestionable?

You give the guy too much credit. If that was his point I could somewhat understand it, I wouldn't agree with him and would still think he's an asshole, but he literally says calling them heroes is "justification for more war." Seriously what the fuck does that even mean?


I do dislike that being in the armed forces is many times used as a positive indictment on a person, and that's just not true. There are enormous, waste-of-space douchebags in every walk of life, and being in the Navy or the Marines or the Army doesn't negate it if a person is a huge douchebag who just happens to be in that walk of life. I don't like the idea a lot of people have that because a person spent time or is spending time in the military, they're "untouchable". Same way I feel about cops, etc.

I agree that a person can be a douche and still be in the military but he's talking about those who died in the line of duty, you can be a douchebag and still be a hero. If a guy who beat his wife dies rescuing a child from a burning house is he not a hero because he beat his wife? Don't get me wrong he would still be an asshole.

[Parkbandit]

"On Sunday, in discussing the uses of the word 'hero' to describe those members of the armed forces who have given their lives, I don't think I lived up to the standards of rigor, respect and empathy for those affected by the issues we discuss that I've set for myself. I am deeply sorry for that.

As many have rightly pointed out, it's very easy for me, a TV host, to opine about the people who fight our wars, having never dodged a bullet or guarded a post or walked a mile in their boots. Of course, that is true of the overwhelming majority of our nation's citizens as a whole. One of the points made during Sunday's show was just how removed most Americans are from the wars we fight, how small a percentage of our population is asked to shoulder the entire burden and how easy it becomes to never read the names of those who are wounded and fight and die, to not ask questions about the direction of our strategy in Afghanistan, and to assuage our own collective guilt about this disconnect with a pro-forma ritual that we observe briefly before returning to our barbecues.

But in seeking to discuss the civilian-military divide and the social distance between those who fight and those who don't, I ended up reinforcing it, conforming to a stereotype of a removed pundit whose views are not anchored in the very real and very wrenching experience of this long decade of war. And for that I am truly sorry.

I didn't think it was possible for this pussy to look more pathetic... yet here we are.

[Latrinsorm]

You give the guy too much credit. If that was his point I could somewhat understand it, I wouldn't agree with him and would still think he's an asshole, but he literally says calling them heroes is "justification for more war." Seriously what the fuck does that even mean?I remember him saying they were "rhetorically proximate", not literally identical. Do I know what he means by that, no, but in looking at his whole position I think I am giving him an appropriate benefit of the doubt.

Everything I've read or heard by the guy (all two things) suggests that he's trying to be thoughtful, as opposed to trying to be a cool rebel. Take "to not ask questions about the direction of our strategy in Afghanistan", that's pretty clearly what I elaborated on, right? If you in a position of power rig it so that the only possible positions are "supports the troops" or "commie pussy", you stifle and marginalize dissent regardless of whether that dissent is factually correct or otherwise worth thinking about.

Not only that, by cartoonizing it to that degree you even make it worse on the people you nominally are fighting for, which is what I think he's talking about with the "a pro-forma ritual that we observe briefly before returning to our barbecues" bit. I'm sure you've heard liberals say this before: are you supporting the troops more by belittling anyone who disagrees with the President, or by disagreeing with the President when his strategy in a given conflict unnecessarily risks their lives?
In response to Latrinsorm: I'm somewhat torn on this. Wall of text incoming.

I do dislike that being in the armed forces is many times used as a positive indictment on a person, and that's just not true. There are enormous, waste-of-space douchebags in every walk of life, and being in the Navy or the Marines or the Army doesn't negate it if a person is a huge douchebag who just happens to be in that walk of life. I don't like the idea a lot of people have that because a person spent time or is spending time in the military, they're "untouchable". Same way I feel about cops, etc.

That being said... I come from a military family and I see and know first hand just how big the consequences of war and service in the military are on not just the soldiers, but the families and loved ones and community at large. A soldier isn't an island.. a soldier is not out there operating alone, a soldier is operating in a massive sea of brothers and sisters at arms, who, when it comes down it, have pledged their lives and well beings for the interests of our country and thus, us, the citizens of the country. To me, the praising of fallen soldiers as "heroes" has less to do with the individuals (which is not to say that most soldiers end up KIA doing incredibly heroic and courageous things) but more a praise of that sea as a whole.. a small way that those of us who don't serve and won't have to experience the hell that is war on the front lines, let every man and woman in our armed services know that we recognize them and respect them and appreciate them for their service. That if they do end up paying the ultimate price they've promised to pay, their life, that it won't be unappreciated. I can see refusing to call certain fallen soldiers heroes because of their behavior, but I can't see wholesale boycotting the practice of honoring the people in our armed forces who die during the call of duty, in the name of our country.iirc he does mention that there are individual cases where the term is appropriate. This leads me to believe that what causes his discomfort is the compulsive nature of the honorance rather than factual accuracy, especially in regards to what that compulsive nature could suggest or imply.

[Warriorbird]

Much like Republican xenophobia looks stupid for them, this sort of thing looks stupid for Democrats.

It's not as though Fox sets the bar high there, MSNBC.

[Ryvicke]

I've spent the last 4 memorial days with Israelis that are fucking baffled as to why we eat grilled meats and have a huge blockbuster movie weekend on Memorial Day. Their equivalent day, as I experienced it, was sad as fuck. People cry, there is a nationwide moment of silence, etc. Mandatory service of course brings those deaths a lot closer to home than they are for a huge percentage of people here.

This guy sounds fagtarded as hell, but the part in his apology about us having some type of pro forma "hero" speech before we get back to grillin and drinkin is true. Memorial Day in America isn't a serious celebration of those who served and died. Acting like we're doing our part by just saying the words is disingenuous.

[4a6c1]

I've spent the last 4 memorial days with Israelis that are fucking baffled as to why we eat grilled meats and have a huge blockbuster movie weekend on Memorial Day. Their equivalent day, as I experienced it, was sad as fuck. People cry, there is a nationwide moment of silence, etc. Mandatory service of course brings those deaths a lot closer to home than they are for a huge percentage of people here.

....Memorial Day in America isn't a serious celebration of those who served and died. Acting like we're doing our part by just saying the words is disingenuous.

I agree with this and I really hate this. Additionally, I feel like Memorial Day is the only time it's socially appropriate to talk about the people we have lost to the war. I've noticed that under normal conditions, reminding people that US sons and daughters are dying in a foreign country for uncertain political motives is the quickest way to kill a conversation. This might be the key to understanding why Israelis can outwardly acknowledge their wartime sacrifices...they know what they are fighting for.

[Stanley Burrell]

It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom.

[Parkbandit]

Much like Republican xenophobia looks stupid for them, this sort of thing looks stupid for Democrats.

It's not as though Fox sets the bar high there, MSNBC.

lulz