The touch of Zelia...

[Atlanteax]

Witnessed in Ta'Vaalor :

(I respect the effort at RP, but my character will claim that he/she is afflicted with the touch of Zelia)

.

(Vishra begins to smooth out the folds in her skirt and dust off her bodice, taking a moment to fluff up her sleeves)

Vishra giggles at Althina!

>look Vishra
You see Vishra the Acolyte.
He appears to be a Faendryl Dark Elf.
He appears to be very young and shorter than average. He has thick-lashed crystal green eyes and dusky skin. He has waist length, black hair. He has a delicate face, a classical nose and tall upswept pointed ears.
He has deep lacerations across his chest.
He is holding a rich-grained villswood runestaff in his right hand.
He is wearing a ruby-inlaid silver brooch, some ruby heart-shaped hairjewels, a suit of black stalking leather, a gold ring, a gold-traced crimson ruby choker, a fitted ruby spidersilk bodice with ruby spidersilk sleeves, a red Ivas symbol, a ruby-winged dark rhimar mockingbird, a triple-looped glittering ruby necklace, a ruby-clasped onyx velvet pouch, a bone-clasped forest green backpack, a jewelled silver waist-chain etched with emerald green flames, a miniature form-fitting gossamer cloak clasped with a wispy symbol of Ivas, a ruby red rosebud, a black velvet ruby-buttoned skirt, a silk ruby dusted purse, a satin sack, and some ruby red high heeled slippers.

Vishra bashfully says, "A D-Daughter of Ivas m-must be beautiful at a-all times."

Vishra carefully brushes his waist length black hair into place, taking care to style it just right.

Vishra carefully pulls his ruby-encrusted hairbrush through his waist length black hair, smoothing out the tangles and snarls.

Mugazzi peers quizzically at Vishra.

[[that was my reaction too...]]

[Shari]

That is very disturbing and funny at the same time.

Too bad I rarely visit that town..

[Chadj]

I've seen it a few times.

..

..

..

Gets old after the second time.

[Kitsun]

Someone on the official boards was asking for transgender titles. Like lord titles given to ladies. I'm guessing this was one of the proponents of that little fad.

[Shalla]

When the player of Vishra, who is a good friend of mine mentioned the making of the Vishra character.. I was :thumbsup:, I thought it was both hilarious and her situation is a good roleplaying tool. Player of is a well known awesome roleplayer who strictly does not go out of character. I personally think there's nothing wrong with roleplaying someone like that, for I think diversity does not limit to just ethnic, straight and gay.

Although I wonder if in the eyes of an audience.. they think he's transgendered because he is simply like that?.. or transgendered because he is touched by zelia? Questions I have to ask the player myself.


p.s Also when I found out, my reaction was OMG let me dress her up.. to which I haven't been able to because of conflicting schedules :(

[Galleazzo]

Yea, I ran into Vishra. Dude wants to wear dresses and call himself a chick, that's a lot better RP than the thousand fuckwads whose idea of staying IC is "NOW U DEUL ME, I PWN U, TOOL!!!!"

[Sweets]

I have interacted with Vishra and love the rp.

What I can't stand are the assholes whispering to me while I am talking with Vishra, using the she pronoun to refer to her, to look at the character's description.

Get an rp clue or just but out.

The worst was some Dragonisk (or something like that) idiot blathering on in public how Vishra uses the act verb way too much and should just use attend.

Great observation and attempt to stay in character. He got frustrated and wanted to go back to Landing. Hehe.

[CrystalTears]

I don't mind people who RP that they are one gender and roleplay the other completely believing that they are. It's fine by me. However, if my character ain't buying it and considering that person touched, she ain't buying it, and telling me that my stance is not roleplay because it's not conforming to what they are roleplaying will just irritate me to not want to roleplay anymore with that person.

If you've run into Sola in Solhaven, she's the same way (or should I say he). Sola is a really good character and the player is a good roleplayer, however Sola is played like a male even though the description is she. My girl looks at Sola and has feelings that he's a she and thinks she's a little psycho but she doesn't say anything outright to her, she accepts that Sola is male and moves on, but I don't take away from her roleplay and she doesn't take away from mine.

The problem is that people focus on the pronouns and don't take into account the age, the description and details of their appearance, their clothing and their gestures. People just say "look at Sola", see "she" and act that way with her and don't see that she really does act, talk and dress like a guy. People talk about wanting to see more roleplay yet they jump the gun and assume certain things without interacting first.

Just like I in real life can usually tell if someone is a male or female regardless of their dress, I can't see why my characters wouldn't be able to do the same. However I won't go out of my way to tell them that they're living the wrong gender.

[Edited on 7/1/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Latrinsorm]

It's all fine by me except this part:
(Vishra begins to smooth out the folds in her skirt and dust off her bodice, taking a moment to fluff up her sleeves) Because he is not recognized by the system as a she, the player should not use female pronouns in acts. It just doesn't make sense.

[DeV]

I agree with Latrin. I have no problem with players who are gender benders, and are good at roleplaying that type of character. However, when using the act verb I think it would be that much better if they used the pronoun that actually applied to their given gender. It would be less confusing and perhaps a bit more humorous at the same time.

[Vishra]

As the person who plays Vishra, I'll toss out a few thoughts.

1. If Vish is disturbing to you, the player, I'm a little concerned for you.

2. Vish is specifically transgendered. She identifies as a "she" and not a "he". Part of being transgendered is exposing the disconnect between a gendered body and a gendered sense of self. The juxtaposition betwen looking at Vish and seeing "He" and her ACTs which show "she" is precisely where the RP of a trans character comes into play.

To force Vish to use "he" would mean that Vish sees herself as a "He" who just wears dresses. But her character goes beyond that. I use "She" because when she does things, that's how she sees it.

When people try to fall back on "The system doesn't recognize that", it's really just an excuse to say "I'm uncomfortable with this kind of character". the system DOESN'T support a trans character, so as a player, I have to do other things to get the point across.

And in just 15 trains, Vish has already recieved 7 RPAs. So I know the GMs support her as an example of great roleplay (and I can see with no eg that she is, indeed, a beautifully RPd character)

Vish's player

[Trinitis]

More power to ya. But don't expect everyone to follow the flow. If Adredrin ever meets this guy, he will refer to him as either "That guy..or crazy loon", Depending on his current mood.

[Artha]

To force Vish to use "he" would mean that Vish sees herself as a "He" who just wears dresses. But her character goes beyond that. I use "She" because when she does things, that's how she sees it.

So when you ACT, does your character see the parenthises too?

[Mint]

I want to dress her/him up too!

[Vishra]

Roleplaying always works that way. You present your character as best you can, and you let other people do what they have to with their own characters.

The only time I get annoyed is when people are clearly putting their own personal biases into their character (Dargonisk was a perfect example of this). Dislike Vish or interpret her actions differently if your character would *truly* do that. But if your character wouldn't, and it's only you that would...well that's just bad RP.

>>So when you ACT, does your character see the parenthises too?

No more than any other character. Other female characters use "She" in their ACTs. The players do this to communicate their character's gender identity. Vishra is no different in this regard. Her gender identity is just diconnected with her gendered body, whereas most characters RP a mirroring between their gendered bodies and their gender identities.

The reality is that every character does exactly what Vishra does with every ACT. It's just that when Vish does it, it looks slightly different.

[Artha]

The reality is that when Vish does it, it's incorrect. He may be a very, very confused man, but he IS a man.

[Vishra]

Yeah, I had completely forgotten that it was your job to determine peoples' genders! Sorry for not having cleared this with you before =(

Incidently...read a book or something.

[CrystalTears]

I was truly enlighted by your post.. until you mentioned all your RPA's and your beautiful roleplay and it lost it for me. I'm glad that you're recognized by the powers that be that you deserve merit, but that doesn't mean that the actions are something that everyone is in agreement with.

Mechanically, it's a male. You would have to continue with the pattern that it's a male with feminine qualities. You can't change the mechanics because your roleplay is going against the grain. I'm not saying you have to play a male, but you ARE a male and to say SHE in your acts is borderline abuse as far as some see it.

I find it no different changing your gender to suit your roleplay as those who ACT that they are a rolton, a hamster, a wagging tailed dog or whatever. Just roleplay and the message will convey through the acting without needing to cheat the mechanics.

[Edited on 7/2/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Vishra]

GS Mechanics don't support a trans character. ACT is the only way to effectively RP the situation. Above all, this is a roleplay game. If you have a unique RP to do, you have to be creative. Some of us value good RP over mechanics limitations in a game that's 15 years old.

Of course, you by no means have to share that priority. But the GMs have made it clear that it's not an abuse.

So it's a moot point.

[CrystalTears]

Hello! LIFE doesn't support trans characters. If you want to be a real female, you need the operation and then you'll be a female, or vise versa. Until then you're a man in female clothing.

Seeing as how you're bringing up the GM's again as your totem pole, I'll put in the disclaimer that I removed because I thought it was too mean spirited. So be it.

Incidentally some of the worst roleplayers in the game have received an RPA a time or two simply because they did something humorous or inventive enough to catch their attention. In the grande scheme of things, it doesn't mean anything other than you were in the right place at the right time. I wouldn't brag about it if I were you.

[Edited on 7/2/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Artha]

Yeah, I had completely forgotten that it was your job to determine peoples' genders! Sorry for not having cleared this with you before =(

Incidently...read a book or something.

You determined the gender when you chose Male instead of Female in the character generator.


Some of us value good RP over mechanics limitations in a game that's 15 years old.

Of course, you by no means have to share that priority. But the GMs have made it clear that it's not an abuse.

Nice...the 'you don't agree with me so you don't care about RP' angle. Good call.


Incidentally...stop being stupid and wrong.

[Vishra]

Life doesn't have to support trans people for a video game to. Honestly, we should get off of this tangent, it's ridiculous.

I brought up the RPAs to demonstrate GM support for Vish's character and the way I RP her.

Though, now that you mention it, I *am* very proud of this character. She's exhausting to play at times, but she's very interesting and I personally think I've done well with her.

[Artha]

Please start using the pronoun He.

[SiKWiDiT]

Does your character believe himself to be a female, or are you the player claiming that a character you choose as a member or the male gender whenever you were rolling him up to be a female?

[Edited on 7-2-2004 by SiKWiDiT]

[SiKWiDiT]

Nevermind, I see the problem. Yes, using the pronoun 'she' in your ACTs would be wrong, as your character is most definately a male by your own choosing.

[Weedmage Princess]

This reminds me of someone who was roleplaying that they WERE a kobold or something. Not that they THOUGHT they were a kobold, but that they actually were a kobold.

One has the potential to be very interesting and enjoyable roleplaying, and the other is just playing outside the mechanics of the game...and lame.

Guess which one you are with using HER in ACTIONS????

[Vishra]

Vishra is a she. If you ask her, she'll say "I am Lady Vishra" (except she'll stutter)

She was rolled up as a male body, and she performs a female gender identity.

I looked all over for the "Male body/Female gender" and "Female Body/Male Gender" options, but, alas, I couldn't find them. They just had "Male Body/Male Gender" and "Female Body/Female Gender".

[Artha]

If you ask her, she'll say "I am Lady Vishra" (except she'll stutter)

But that's in character. Acts where you're saying 'he/she' generally are used because there isn't a verb that does them. You should use he.

[CrystalTears]

By the way, no one in this thread has really been saying Vishra was a bad character or that the player was bad for roleplaying that way. Some disagree with the ACTs you've been using and you're taking complete offense to it.

GMs don't say anything to people who SAY they ARE kobolds. They give out RPAs for doing a good job of playing one, but it doesn't mean that some of the ACTs used were acceptable by any means.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Vishra
Vishra is a she. If you ask her, she'll say "I am Lady Vishra" (except she'll stutter)

That's fine, roleplaying-wise she's a female. However when you do the ACTs, it's for the benefit of the PLAYERS and telling the PLAYERS that your character which is biologically/mechanically MALE is FEMALE is technically wrong.

[Edited on 7/2/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Vishra]

Actually, the GMs will step in and tell you if you're abusing ACT. That happened to my other character years ago.

I'm gonna say this one final time, and people can make their own opinions from there.

I roleplay a character that represents the disconnect between her body and her sense of self. She is not a "He" in any sense. She just has what someone might call a male body. That's not the same thing as being male. That's what people here are missing.

Vishra is a she in every sense of the word but the physical. And if people think gender is simply physical, think about the following:

1. Is a man without a penis still a man?
2. How much of what comprises gender is physicality? Think of the clothing you wear, the way you speak, the way you sit, all of the millions of little gendered things we do every day. 99.9% of the people I meet...well I don't see their genitals. And yet, somehow, I still know their gender (and it's not simply breasts or lack of breasts...I can tell gender from afar)

So Vish is a she. I use She in the ACTs and when you look, you'll see He in the mechanics. And that's precisely the character I'm RPing.

Take it or leave it, I don't care either way ;)

[Weedmage Princess]

Vishra, I hear what you're saying and I think it's neat you're playing a male who believes beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is actually female. Like I said, it can make for very interesting and enjoyable roleplaying. However, according to the MECHANICS, Vishra is a HE. When people look at Vishra, the character, they see Vishra..HE appears to be blah blah blah, HE has whatever colored eyes, HE has whatever color hair, HE is wearing so on and what not. By using the term HER in your actions, in a way you're abusing the act verb. It's really not much different from someone who does this:

act blows a magical whistle then all of a sudden you see a fleet of white unicorns with diamond horns rush around her.

(Weedie blows a magical whistle then all of a sudden you see a fleet of white unicorns with diamond horns rush around her.)

There ARE no white unicorns with diamond horns in the game. Sure my character might BELIEVE there are, might be totally convinced they are and thinks she sees them...but they DONT exist in the game.

[SiKWiDiT]

I need a Cartman smiley that says 'Screw you guys, I'm going home', plz.

[Weedmage Princess]

GMs are a lot more lax now a days, or perhaps you've not been caught doing that yet. Just because no one's said anything to you recently doesn't mean you're not doing anything wrong.

You know, I'm actually going to ask a couple of GMs their thoughts on this. I'm going to use your character as an example and see what they say. I know you don't care either way, but I'm rather curious myself. :)

[Artha]

Actually, the GMs will step in and tell you if you're abusing ACT. That happened to my other character years ago.

No. No they will not.

See: Svardin's abuse of smile.

[CrystalTears]

What's frustrating is that you're not understanding what people are explaining. It's not your roleplay that people are questioning. In fact people have said that it's a very interesting and unique roleplaying approach. It's your method to circumvent mechanics in order to compensate it that is unacceptable.

Screw it. It's like talking to Amby the kobold.

[Weedmage Princess]

That's who it was, Amby!!! Thanks CT. I couldn't remember for the life of me.

[Trinitis]

it was not amby in game. It was Pattie in game.

The Kobold Cleric.

[Sean]

So when your observing a man standing infront of you, you are aware of the fact that it's a man in your post. If that man is in drag, you are still aware of the fact that is in indeed a man. You seem to understand that when we look at your character we know that you are indeed a man. However, you are female in how you act and dress.

If I were to stand infront of you in drag and act like a woman but you were still able to look at me know and know I was a man. If I started dancing would you think to yourself hey, shes an horrible dancer or hey hes a horrible dancer?

[Weedmage Princess]

Yeah but it was Capt'n Amby who posted on the boards. That's who I meant.

I didn't know any of the characters, I just remember her arguing of vehemently about Pattie actually being a kobold. :thumbsdown:

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Tijay
I stand infront of you in drag and act like a woman

Another Saturday night, eh Tijay?

::flees::

[Sean]

Your mother prefers it when I show up in drag. Just wait in 9 months you'll have a little brother to thank me for.

Yes, I have resorted to your mother jokes to counter weedies STUPID POST.

To stay on topic...

I think Vish's player appears smart from her posting style, has a good sense of RP, and does have potential to add to the game. But lacks a certain common sense when it comes to using the act verb. Just my .02.

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Tijay
Your mother prefers it when I show up in drag. Just wait in 9 months you'll have a little brother to thank me for.

Yes, I have resorted to your mother jokes to counter weedies STUPID POST.



My mom's going through "the changes."

:rah:

..mean :cry:

[jafo]

I guess I just think that gender bending is gimmick roleplay. Add to that a stutter, more gimmick roleplay. The problem is, gimmicks get old fast.

I hope there is something deeper to the character than a few gimmicks.

[Vishra]

>That's fine, roleplaying-wise she's a female. However when you do the ACTs, it's for the benefit of the PLAYERS and telling the PLAYERS that your character which is biologically/mechanically MALE is FEMALE is technically wrong.

You are using a very particular definition of gender, that's the issue here. YOU personally may believe that Vishra is a he, but others believe that Vishra is a she. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong?

Technically, using a "He" or "She" in ACT, no matter what kind of body your character has, is telling other players what they should think and see. There's always room for misinterpretation for a variety of reasons (poor eye sight, Zelia follower, certain features, ignorance of gender differences in different races, etc), and by using any gender designation you are forcing other players to recognize your character's gender as you see it. That's exactly what Vishra does, except Vishra is at least open about the ambiguities (by selecting a male body, I made sure that people would realize they were witnessing gender nonconformity so that they could make their own decisions about how to interpret things). That's a lot more honest, more "showing" rather than "telling" than 99.9% of the characters in Gemstone.

And honestly, if you look at Vishra, you'll see very delicate and stereotypically feminine features, a slight build, all women's clothing, and if you listen to her, she almost always speaks with a very soft and effeminate voice, etc (I'm very careful about using the "tone" verb). It would be very difficult under most circumstances to determine immediately if she had a male body or female body. To just presume that people can immediately tell one way or the other is unrealistic.

I mimic the reality of the situation by using "She" and "Her" in ACT and a name that would generally register as female. So someone who doesn't "Look" at Vishra (the equivalent of not really paying attention, being far away from her, etc) will assume it's a female body. And someone that does "Look" at Vishra (the equivalent of really engaging with her, being close by, etc) may notice a male body. And while I generally use ACT for her verbs (so I can choose the gender designation), I toss in other verbs that I know will say "He" occasionally just to get that juxtaposition to clue people in to the kind of character they're interacting with. Is it perfect? No. Is it much more realistic? Yes.

All of this, of course, points to the fact that gender is something you "Do", it isn't something you "Are" (except by virtue of "doing" it repeatedly). That's how many of us view it. I'm not going to go into specifics about this here, unless someone really wants to hear it, but there has been extensive work done on this. Not to invoke a hierarchy, but in social sciences the idea that gender is something you "Are" as opposed to something you "Do" is considered to be incorrect and out-dated. Meanwhile, the common "wisdom" on the streets is the exact opposite. Again, it's no one's place to say that one way of looking at gender is correct and another isn't.

And the GMs had many REPORTs about Vishra's use of ACT, and they made it clear that it wasn't a problem. So the argument that they were somehow not aware doesn't work. In fact, two GMs have stopped and given me SENDs to compliment Vishra's RP.

All in all, I think I do a damn good job RPing a gender deviant character. I give people enough information to draw their own conclusions about her gender (which is something we always do with people), and I don't ever force them to see Vish as either male or female by virtue of the fact that I ensure that they see enough information to see it either way.

[Vishra]

Someone said they thought Vish was gimmick roleplaying (rather offensive), and that they hoped there was "more to her". (I would argue, of course, that that's already far more than most characters). So I figured I'd paste her character story. It needs to be edited to polish up the writing (I may or may not have written it while intoxicated). But here's the gist, if anyone cares:

She was born Vishran Irrigus Faendryl. The only child of two esteemed sorcerers in New Ta'Faendryl, she had been the pride and joy of her family, and her birth was considered to be a blessing to them. During early childhood, Vishran's existence was relatively uneventful. Her parents lavished attention on her, and she excelled at early childhood education. Her kindness and energy brought a smile to the faces of all who spent any amount of time with her, and in turn her own face would light up as brightly as the sun. Of course, back then, Vishran was not referred to as a "her", she was referred to as a "him". At those early ages, it meant little to Vishran what anyone called her, as long as they loved her and played with her.

It wasn't until later that the life of Vishran, which had heretofar been bright as a summer's day, began to darken. Her parents often caught her dressed up in her mother's clothing, and she would fight constantly with her female friends for possession of their clothing, often being chastised by her teachers for attempting to trade her pants for another girl's dress in between lessons. The few times she was successful, she was sent home with a firm reprimand, and her parents grew more
and more dismayed at this behavior. As she grew older, the other children began to show less tolerance or her antics. It wasn't long before Vishra was being sent home in bandages instead of dresses. Finally, her parents had no choice but to educate her at home. They insisted that she wear proper Faendryl men's clothing, but she often refused and even began referring to herself as a "she". Distressed, her parents began to grow distant from their child. Eventually they cased to give her lessons at all (she had shown no promise in the art of sorcery anyway), and they simply ignored their child to the best of their abilities. Now, the only memories Vishra has of interacting with her parents are when they would discover her in dresses again and scold her.

Growing up without any friends or family to speak of, Vishran spent inordinate amounts of time alone. Most of that time was spent in a small temple dedicated to the Arkati a mile or so from her relatively wealthy area of town. Being New Ta'Faendryl, the temple received very few
visitors, mostly historians or children on school trips. This afforded Vishran all the time she wanted to herself, and it was a place where she could wear her dresses (bought without her parents' knowledge) and spend hours braiding and unbraiding her long, ebony hair. One spot in particular quickly became her favorite. It was a small nook in the back of the Temple, devoted to the Lornon Arkati. In the corner of the nook was a tapestry of the most beautiful woman Vishran had ever seen. Her visage was everything Vishran aspired to be. "She is more beautiful than anything else in this world, and one day I will be beautiful as She", Vishran often thought to herself during the hours she spent gazing up reverently at the tapestry. This was the Arkati Ivas, they had told her at the temple, hoping a quick answer would mean that this strange creature would leave them be. The Arkati were not gods, they had explained to her. But Vishran didn't believe them. No one that beautiful could be anything less than a Goddess, and it wasn't long before she was praying on a regular basis to Ivas to make her just as beautiful. Unaware of the darker side of Ivas and in particular Her delight in seducing the innocent into Her service, Vishra wanted nothing more than the approval of the dark Arkati.

Slowly, Vishran began to work up the courage to walk the town in her dresses and makeup. Often times she went unnoticed, and in areas where she and her family were not known, she could pass for a woman quite easily. One day, however, a particularly persistant youth who lavished attention
on her in hopes of winning her heart, discovered Vishran's secret. Word spread around New Ta'Faendryl like wild fire, and the news eventually reached her parents. Having put up with their strange Vishran for years, her parents had finally reached the end of their tolerance. When friends came to warn them about a lynching planned for the young Vishran, they not only did nothing to stop it, but they agreed to help. Telling Vishran that they would meet her the next day during lunch at a park that had been her favorite in her youth, they planned to deliver her straight to the angry mob that was forming in response to Vishran's behavior. Vishran, fearful of leaving the house, was so taken aback by this rare gesture of kindness that she quickly agreed. Taking this as a sign that her parents had finally come around, she dressed in her most lovely gown, put jewels in her hair, and prepared a small feast for the lunch. She went to bed that night feeling as though her life had finally begun to look up. She was so excited, that she almost forgot her nightly prayers to Ivas.

That was the last evening Vishran would ever spend in New Ta'Faendryl.

When she arrived to meet her parents at that park the next day, she immediately knew something was wrong. A large group had already formed beneath the elegant trees of the park. Some carried rope, some carried torches. Immediately, they set upon her, binding her wrists cruelly and hanging her by them from a low-hung branch of a nearby tree. She screamed and screamed for her parents' aid, but they simply sat in the back of the crowd, wondering if they had done the right thing, but too afraid of the now frothing mob to try to stop them. At this point, the mob began gathering sticks and small branches, and they built a large pyre beneath Vishran's legs. She twisted and shrieked, trying to undo the binding and flee, but the ropes were too tight and all of her movement simply tore the skin off of her wrists. Finally, having completed the pyre, those holding fire came up to her and lit it ablaze. Flames quickly ran up the wood, and Vishran knew in her heart that these were to be her final moments. In desparation, she cried out to Ivas for aid, promising that she would forever dedicate her life to the Goddess if She would spare her.

The flames began licking at her feet, and the smoke choked her before the prayer could be completed. Dizzy, she bowed her head and accepted her fate, closing her eyes tightly to avoid the multitude of murderous eyes that glared at her in amusement and satisfaction. Suddenly, in her mind she saw the image that she had stared at so many times in that old Temple. The beautiful woman was burned into her mind, and with shock she realized it was speaking to her! "You are beautiful Vishran, and you have been faithful to me. I will grant your prayer, but you will use the rest of your life to serve me." Vishran's eyes suddenly opened on their own accord, and she realized that the flames had died out completely. It was at this moment that she heard the first screams. Looking up, she saw the beautiful woman from the tapestry. But the image was no longer in her mind. The woman's features were twisted in sadistic glee, and all around her were elves, burning. One by one, the members of the mob ignited into flame, and their dying screams filled the air. The last two to go up in flame were her parents, their faces twisted masks of agony that Vishran knew would haunt her dreams for the rest of her life. Before she could ponder the enormity of the situation, the ropes around her wrists unbound themselves, and she quickly fell to the ground. "Go from this place Vishran", the woman looked at her cooly, amused, but her lips did not move. Numb with shock, Vishran stood up and stumbled off deeper
into the park, not daring to look back behind her, not wishing to see the bodies or to notice that her home was fading quickly away.

On that day she resolved that she would be Vishran Irrigus Faendryl no more. She would be Vishra. And while she had grown quite shy and withdrawn over the years, from that day on she would stutter horribly, always terrified of those to whom she spoke. Always wondering if in the back of their minds they thought of rope and fire; if the scars she now bore on her wrists would once again become open wounds.

For days, Vishra walked. She had no idea where she was going, and the sporadic berries and edible roots she found barely kept her with enough energy to make it through each day. Whenever she saw lights or heard sounds that indicated civilization was near, she would alter her course enough to avoid it entirely, terrified that they might know who she was, or that they would take one look at her torn and dirty dress and come after her with rope and fire just as they had in New Ta'Faendryl. After six days and six nights, Vishra awoke one morning in front of a giant set of city gates that had not been there when she had gone to sleep the night before. Taking this as a sign from the Goddess from which she had heard nothing since that fateful day, she slowly entered the city, exhausted.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Vishra
She just has what someone might call a male body. That's not the same thing as being male. That's what people here are missing.Here's what you're missing: when you use every verb in the game besides ACT, people will see "he". Therefore, it is at the least incorrect and in my eyes abuse to use ACT and use "she".

It has nothing to do with how good/bad a roleplayer you are.

It has nothing to do with what "gender" is and how one would define it.

It has nothing to do with the backstory for your character.

[HarmNone]

As I see it, Latrinsorm hit the nail on the head. When one uses an act command to allow actions not supported by verbs, it is disconcerting if the pronouns are mismatched with those generated by the game for that particular character. It ruins the flow of the roleplay, so to speak.

When you use an act command, you are doing something that everyone else sees, and doing it specifically FOR them to see. No matter how Vishra sees HERSELF, the rest of the world sees "her" as a "he". An act command that forces others to see Vishra (a male) as a "she" is counterproductive to roleplay. :shrug:

HarmNone

[Sean]

So by doing thing with a female characteristic one moment and then doing something and associating with male characteristics the next I switch between male and female genders? No, I don't. Consistancy is key here and by flopping back and forth you aren't really doing yourself any service except to announce to the player," hey look what I'm doing." Which really doesn't suprise me because you seem rather full of yourself, and in need of someone to pat you on the back and give you a good ol' atta"boy". By reminding us of your RPA's, your nearly postly reminders of how damn good an RPer you think you are, to your knowing what kind of reports the GMs get about you to the point where you feel comfortable talking about them, to your placing yourself above "99.9%" of the playing population in areas thats the impression I get.

If your character TRUELY believes she is female and does not identify with her male attributes then seriously why do you flip flop from he to she otherwise. How is this...

(Vishra begins to smooth out the folds in her skirt and dust off her bodice, taking a moment to fluff up her sleeves)

anymore femine in action than this..

Vishra carefully brushes his waist length black hair into place, taking care to style it just right.

Could you have used the act verb for both? Sure. Would it be a pain in the ass? Of course but it would be consistant. Theres not act of changing gender there. Theres no act of confusion by the character. What purpose did swapping the two really serve other than to just get attention?

Not to mention through your spiels of uber RP ability you are forcing people to accept Vishra as a woman by using She in your act thus removing any choice of the character/player other than to ignore your efforts if they choose to believe otherwise. In the end it comes down to if you wanted people to look at you and accept you as a female you should have rolled a female and then RPed a female with masucline qualities, female attributes, and female social characteristics. Then the character/player could make up their own minds about your RP and not be pigeonholed to your ideas. In the end it results in rather 1 sided concepts of RP, accept what YOU want or don't bother. Which again fits in just about right with the image of yourself that your presenting to me.

[HarmNone]

After giving some thought to this particular roleplay, I can see how it would be great fun, but very challenging. As I see it, my choice would be to match my gender references in ACT commands to the mechanics of the game, or to use NO verbs, items with gender references in their scripting, or any other mechanism that might trigger a gender flop between my characterization and game mechanics. The latter choice is pretty much impossible, what with hunting mechanics, and all.

Therefore, the onus is on the player to make this character come off as female despite the gender references generated by game mechanics. Your ACT command (dress straightening and preening) was a good one, but would have been just as good (and probably even more interesting) if you had used the male gender reference, rather than the female.

It's up to you to make others see that Vishra is "all woman" without bending the rules. It's a challenge, but...as I think about it...it can be done, and done well. I hope you'll work on it. It's a good premise!:up:

HarmNone

*Heh. This one REALLY tempts me! It would be fun!*

[Edited on 7-2-2004 by HarmNone]

[Vishra]

This is a *Transgendered* character. Picking "female" as the biology and then dressing and acting as a female would NOT be transgendered.

Falling back on mechanics is a poor decision, and it's a mask. The GS mechanics do NOT support a trans character, they do NOT give the option of chosing that when you roll your character up. So you find creative ways to roleplay the character within the constraints. The game was made 15 years ago, the notion that there might be a trans character probably never entered their minds. But that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to RP a trans character.

Again, any time you use "He" or "She" in ACT, you are telling other players what to see and forcing their characters to view your gender in a particular way. That's no less artificial than what I do with Vish. And since at least Vish is open about the fact that there's no clear cut answer (and there NEVER is, no matter how you RP your gender), it's a more honest and open-ended approach.

Simply put, Vishra adds a lot to the RP of Vaalor where she lives. She in no way "disrupts" RP. The only thing that has disrupted RP has been people who have insisted that somehow she isn't being RP'd correctly.

Appreciate the character for having a rich history and a complicated personality, and for just being interesting to watch in action. Or ignore her. But it would never be fair to say that somehow she's disruptive to the RP environment.

And, again, if the GMs think it's an appropriate use of ACT, then it's an appropriate use of ACT.

[Artha]

The GMs also think ACTing to transform yourself into a furry is an appropriate use of the ACT command. Or, at least, they don't reprimand it...which, according to you, seems to be about the same.

[Vishra]

>It's up to you to make others see that Vishra is "all woman" without bending the rules.

This isn't my intention. My intention is to show a character that isn't "all" male or "all" female. SHE will tell you she's all female, and I refer to her as such. But I intentionally had a "male" body for her and intentionally use automated verbs that insert "He" instead of "She", and intentionally I use ACT with "She".

I'm interested in that net effect. I'm interested in that gender transgressive behavior. And it leaves it open for individual characters to decide what they want to, which is the beauty of the character. There is no doubt what Vishra thinks of herself, there is no doubt what people could *possible* think of her, the only thing left open is what your character will think. And I give you ample information on both sides to make a decision.

As opposed to other characters who don't even give your character the opportunity to interpret, to "mistake" gender identity, etc. Everything Vishra is getting criticized for is what everyone else in GS does, and, ironically, what Vishra doesn't do. People seem to be having problems wrapping their heads around that one, but take a moment to read what I've posted and to contemplate it.

[Aeony]

*does her best impression of Austin Powers* It's a man, baby!

[HarmNone]

I see where you are going with your roleplay, Vishra. I do not agree with the way you do it, and would not choose that way to do it for myself. However, it is your experiment and it is your decision to make. I wish you luck with the character and enjoyment in playing him/her. ;)

HarmNone who might try this one day, but just a bit differently...

[Sean]

They also think they way Tayre and Bob are okay most of the time too. I don't think the GMs are the ultimate mesaure of what is good and what is bad RP. RPA's aren't either.

[Edited on 7-3-2004 by Tijay]

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Tijay
They also think they way Tayre and Bob are okay most of the time too. I don't think the GMs are the ultimate mesaure of what is good and what is bad RP. RPA's aren't either.

[Edited on 7-3-2004 by Tijay]


Word! From what I have observed, the majority of GMs don't give a flip what you are doing as far as RP is concerned. They'll give out RP awards for the equivalent of spicing one's speech with "thee" and "thou". :rolleyes:

HarmNone

[Vishra]

>They also think they way Tayre and Bob are okay most of the time too. I don't think the GMs are the ultimate mesaure of what is good and what is bad RP. RPA's aren't either.

They are certainly as good as it gets. If they say it's not a violation, it's not. And if they choose to consistently reward her RP, then it's not just something they passively tolerate.

She's a good character to have around. Try actually interacting with her. She's hard not to fall in love with if you give her the chance.

[Vishra]

>They'll give out RP awards for the equivalent of spicing one's speech with "thee" and "thou".

Because RP blows, especially in the Nations. We need more characters with a strong sense of self and who don't go OOC. That should always be rewarded

[CrystalTears]

It's like a drug, these debates, I tell you. I need therapy.

This is my take on it, and I may be wrong. Being transgender in this day in age is not the same in any way as it was in the renaissance/medieval ages. They don't have implants, they don't get hormone injections, they won't get groomed by people against their gender unless they are extremely wealthy and have the means to hire people to do as they demand. It's much easier to spot a male through female attire than it is now, and rather vice versa.

Even today, when you see a "woman" who's really a man, sometimes you can't tell right away but usually you can, and when you do, you immediately start referring to them as "he". To say "she" would usually cause that person to chuckle or stammer and not believe it. Why? Because they are physically male. Maybe it's our way of saying to not get too attached because the equipment is all wrong for the job, who knows.

Seeing as how the game is not 3-dimentional as life is, all players have to go on is what they see when they "look" and see a male in female clothing and characteristics. It's up to the other players to decide if the roleplaying is convincing enough to pass that person off as the opposite gender and accept it as true.

"Tricking" the mechanics by saying she rather than he will just force the people to think that you're making them believe that you're a woman, but you as the player know you are not. You can do all the female roleplaying you want, but ultimately you as the player know that it's a male, and the mechanics are what convey to the other players what the sex is of the person. Let them decide what gender to believe. Forcing it on them is just going to irritate them.

It has nothing to do with your history, it has nothing to do with your roleplay, that part is very good and commendable. Let's get this part straight.. Your choice of roleplay has never been in question here. Just how you choose to ACT. It has to do with the fact that you choose a male body to roleplay a woman and you need to continue the premise that it is indeed a male.

[Edited on 7/3/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Vishra

They are certainly as good as it gets. If they say it's not a violation, it's not. And if they choose to consistently reward her RP, then it's not just something they passively tolerate.

Thats not quite true.

I play Snowdrop as a child - albeit a talented child these days and she is loved by some of the GM's. She has earned RPA's because of the way she is RP'd. I have spoken to a GM about playing her as a child and the response was along the lines of you can play her how you see fit, but we wont necessarily support you in that.

It could be argued (and is amongst some of the regulars here) that that is passive tolerance. That they dont agree with it but it isnt something that they feel the need to deal with - which as we have seen recently, needs a fairly high threshold. Just because they let it go, and even give RPA's to, doesnt necessarily mean a thing.

I think that what is recognised is that you are doing something different. That is most definitely welcomed amongst the GM's and the more sensible players. The way you are doing it is what's causing the problems - although for some it is probably their homophobia disguised as mechanics-finickityness (real word!).

I respect what you are doing. I have mixed feelings about the ACT verb use, and think that a lot of the opposition you are getting is just people being dickheads, but there is something in what is being said that is worth listening to...just weed out the wheat from the chaff.



She's a good character to have around. Try actually interacting with her. She's hard not to fall in love with if you give her the chance.
Yet that sounds just a little arrogant.
It would be fine for you to say "yeah she is a great character to play" but to tell other people they they will love her and she is good for them to have around is a little self absorbed. :shrug:

[Sean]

I don't think anyone here has said anything that would indicate homophobia, in game no idea. No one, that I've noticed, even seems to really care that she RPs a transgendered character, nor should they. What I do see is people saying her use is the ACT verb is wrong whether or not its abuse.

[Edaarin]

On behalf of the Player's Corner, I'd like to welcome you to our boards.

Also on behalf of the Player's Corner, I'd like to say the following.

BITCH GET OVER YOURSELF.

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Tijay
I don't think anyone here has said anything that would indicate homophobia, in game no idea. No one, that I've noticed, even seems to really care that she RPs a transgendered character, nor should they. What I do see is people saying her use is the ACT verb is wrong whether or not its abuse.
I meant in game

[Vishra]

>Yet that sounds just a little arrogant.
It would be fine for you to say "yeah she is a great character to play" but to tell other people they they will love her and she is good for them to have around is a little self absorbed.

I don't think that's arrogant at all. She's just plain adorable. Wouldn't hurt a fly, giggles all the time, says really sweet things to people, etc. I RP her that way.

I DO maintain she is good to have around. She inspires other people to stay in character, attested to by comments I've had from other players. And it reminds us all that RP isn't dead in GS. Particularly in a place like Vaalor, it's easy to forget. Vishra isn't great to have around because she's trans, she's great to have around because she's VERY in character at all times.


>I don't think anyone here has said anything that would indicate homophobia, in game no idea. No one, that I've noticed, even seems to really care that she RPs a transgendered character, nor should they. What I do see is people saying her use is the ACT verb is wrong whether or not its abuse.

I'm inclined to agree with Snowdrop's player on this one, actually. this is a classic argument. "Same Rights, not Special Rights" kind of thing. Everyone knows that the mechanics don't readily support a trans character, so it's easier to just say "OH, well I have problems with a mechanics abuse" (knowing full well that the mechanics will never support a trans character) than it is to say (and think) "Oh, I'm uncomfortable with a trans character". In the end, it has the same effect, but one just sounds nicer.

I already pointed out that ANYONE using "He" or "She" is forcing other players to recognize their own character's gender in a particular way, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone. What bothers people is when a trans character does the same exact thing. That's suspect.

[Vishra]

>On behalf of the Player's Corner, I'd like to welcome you to our boards.

HA! I've been posting on these boards FOREVER, thanks. Just not under this name. I don't want Vish connected with my other, much more well-known, character.

But thanks for the sass

[Weedmage Princess]

I don't think I'm being a dickhead. Again, I think the concept is very interesting, and (s)he has a great backstory. My beef is just with the use..no..abuse..of the ACT command.

Yes, Gemstone is a game where it's in your best interest to use your imagination and be as creative as possible. This is how you'll get the most enjoyment out of it, I think. That being said, there are still boundaries in which we have to play. When this person selected a gender for Vishra, they selected MALE. If this character believes he is a she, dresses like a woman and even has feminine characteristics, mannerisms, etc..that's fine. The character wants to refer to himself as a HER, that's fine too. But to use the ACT verb and say "her dress" and things like that is in a sense, going OOC...trying to make the players behind the other characters recognize this person as a SHE...when he's a HE. Again, there isn't a selection for trans-gender in the mangler...so...you can't be one.

[Edaarin]

Seriously. Reread some of your posts, and tell me you don't come off as condescending and conceited.

EDITed to correct a grievous typo.

[Edited on 7-3-2004 by Edaarin]

[HarmNone]

To me, we are again facing the problem that presents when people wish to play a free-form roleplaying game, but choose GemStone in which to do it. GemStone is NOT a free-form roleplaying game. There are certain truths built into the game. There are certain things, such as transgendered characters, that are NOT built into the game. I guess I will never understand why someone who is obviously best suited for free-form play makes GemStone their game of choice. :shrug:

HarmNone

[Latrinsorm]

I would absolutely enjoy having my character interact with Vishra (if I was going to walk way the hell over to Vaalor)

UNTIL

You do an ACT like that. That would first confuse me, then annoy me. It's not about being homophobic. Ask anyone, I'm totally not homophobic, assuming for the moment that being homophobic would somehow apply to this situation.

I don't get your point about everyone else using "he" and "she" because they're all using them consistently. What's different is you are not and can not until you stop using "she" in ACT's or reroll your character as a female body.

[Edaarin]

Oh. Judging by the long-winded posts praising your virtues and ignoring any posts regarding possible vices, I'd say it isn't hard to attach a PC name to Vishra.

Hello Bestatte.

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Artha
The reality is that when Vish does it, it's incorrect. He may be a very, very confused man, but he IS a man. How do you know? You look up the dress to find out?

Ya know, at this rate, I think I'll go post ten pics of androgynous looking people. Any of you can guess the right sex of the pics, ten out of ten, you get the right to whine about how mechanics are god.


What's frustrating is that you're not understanding what people are explaining. It's not your roleplay that people are questioning. In fact people have said that it's a very interesting and unique roleplaying approach. It's your method to circumvent mechanics in order to compensate it that is unacceptable. I kinda think what Vish's player is doing here is not agreeing with you, and maybe Vish's player has different ideas than you of what's acceptable or not.

Speaking of which, ya know what strikes me as real funny? Look at all of you. You're posting here instead of on the official boards.

Why? Because you can be yourselves. You can cuss, you can fight, you can bitch people out, you can act the way you want for the most part, and mostly you don't get what you say or how you act censored. And a whole lot of you have nasty things to say about the mods on the official boards for being so stuck up, and telling people what to do and how to act.

So you come here, and then some of you are the most conformist lot ever. Anyone who doesn't game the way you want them to is cheating, or abusing mechanic, or are shitty RPers, and if the GMs don't back you up, they're idiots. And you come out with lines like "Start using the pronoun He."

It's just pretty funny to see from some of you, is all.

:popcorn:



[Edited on 7/3/2004 by Galleazzo]

[Artha]

How do you know? You look up the dress to find out?

You can usually tell by looking at the nose, eyes, and chin. You can also check out the arms, chest, and legs a lot of the time.

edit: Observe

http://www.blogstar.org/albums/75/IMG_6980.jpg

Obviously a guy, right?

[Edited on 7-3-2004 by Artha]

[Vishra]

That's not exactly someone who spends all of their time performing a female gender. It's someone that slapped on a costume, probably while drunk, for a party.

And from a distance, yes, you would probably think they were a woman.

[Atlanteax]

(in reference to picture)

I was there at this year's SimuCon...

At first (before I realized who it was, having witnessed the same person doing the same thing at the previous Con) I was like "Damn, she looks like she's really a man."

.

As for Vishra, in-game... my character(s) and I assume many others, will generally be "damn, she looks like she's really a man."

.

But I think that is Vishra's player's intention... that is that she does enough to pass herself of as a female, despite really being a male.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Look at all of you. You're posting here instead of on the official boards. Hi, I post on both. Have some :stfu: plz.

I don't understand people who refuse to accept the rules everyone else accepts while playing a game.

[Galleazzo]

So why bother posting here?

[Artha]

Because you can say the word 'damn'?

[HarmNone]

I don't post on the official boards because I do not have an account and, thereby, don't play the game. Doesn't mean I'm not still interested. :)

HarmNone

[Galleazzo]

Most people still do play, HN, and a lot of folks who cancelled out started posting here before they did.

And hah, you can say "damn" on the official boards.

[Artha]

And hah, you can say "damn" on the official boards.

Maybe it depends on the mod...I recall someone here posting about how a post got pulled over there for having the word 'damn' in it.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
So why bother posting here? Why wouldn't I?

[Edaarin]

What does posting on one board instead of the other have to do with anything?

I go to the official boards to discuss mechanics (right now, mostly the rogue boards for lock mastery). I go here to banter and make fun of the occasional retard that wanders in.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Speaking of which, ya know what strikes me as real funny? Look at all of you. You're posting here instead of on the official boards.

I read it on occasion, I just can't post there because I don't have an account. I really don't see what that has to do with anything. The responses will be very similar except for the bad word and the mention of an actual character here and there. The use of the ACT is still in question, not her roleplaying choice.


So you come here, and then some of you are the most conformist lot ever. Anyone who doesn't game the way you want them to is cheating, or abusing mechanic, or are shitty RPers, and if the GMs don't back you up, they're idiots. And you come out with lines like "Start using the pronoun He."

If we have to follow certain rules, then it's only fair that everyone else does as well. Again, this is NOT about the roleplaying she's doing or even what she's roleplaying. It's the way she's going about it with the ACT, nothing more.

By the way, why don't YOU start posting nicer here like you do on the official boards? Just because you can be crude? You can be just as judgemental about how people talk and act, so don't give me this high and mighty stance, looking down at us as though you're innocent of it.

She doesn't want to follow certain rules, fine, but don't jump down our throats for explaining why we see it as wrong.

[Edited on 7/3/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
The use of the ACT is still in question, not her roleplaying choice.

[Weedmage Princess]

And for those who just can't seem to comprehend...


Originally posted by CrystalTears
The use of the ACT is still in question, not her roleplaying choice.

[Weedmage Princess]

Once more for those in the "Solescape" tier....


Originally posted by CrystalTears
The use of the ACT is still in question, not her roleplaying choice.


Look, you can argue fifty ways to Tuesday on this, but the way the ACT verb is being used is ABUSE.

If it's abuse when someone uses it to TALK when they've been silenced, if it's ABUSE for someone to summon a creature that DOES NOT exist in Gemstone, then how on God's Green Earth can you say it's NOT ABUSE when a MALE CHARACTER uses it to bat HER eyelashes or straighten out HER skirt? It's common sense, really. Any other argument, who posts on the official boards and who doesn't, their reasons for doing so...what the character believes, how good of a roleplayer the character is, how awesome the backstory is..IT IS ALL EXTRANEOUS. That particular action, with the act verb...IS ABUSE OF THE VERB.

LEARN IT
LIVE IT
LOVE IT.

...or atleast don't try to say it isn't when it is...holy Christ.

[HarmNone]

To me, the problem goes deeper than just being mechanics abuse; although, I will agree that it is that, as well.

It appears that the player is trying to say that the character THINKS of himself as female. Cool beans. That is all well and good. However, the ACT command is intended to convey ACTIONS to other characters/players. It is not intended to convey THOUGHTS. That, as I understand it, is accomplished through the use of the MY CHAR stuff, and is to be seen by staff only...apparently for the purpose of apprising them of the intent behind a character's actions. (This particular option wasn't around when I played, so I'm not cognizant of the nuances associated with it.)

Therein lies the rub. When a male character, dressed in female clothing, is referred to by all game-controlled text as male, but by player-driven text as female, it does not create the impression of a transgendered individual, in my opinion. It only points out the flaws in the system when it comes to playing this type of character. Better to do it with subtle roleplay than by trying to do it through ACTIONS that belie the vision of the game. At least, it would be to me. :shrug:

HarmNone does not really care all that much, but it just seems so obvious........

[Weedmage Princess]

Harm None you're getting a bit too deep for some of the people here. If they can't understand the concept of "This is how the act verb is abused"...they're not going to understand that. Baby steps my dear Harmie, baby steps.

Weedie, going insane one baby step at a time...

[HarmNone]

Heh. If you can't understand something that simple, you probably shouldn't be trying to play something that complex, eh? :oops:

HarmNone had best STFU

[Weedmage Princess]

DING!!!!! :duh: :blush:

[Edited on 7-3-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Vishra]

People, it's only abuse if one subscribes to YOUR particular limited definition of gender.

For those of us who study gender and look at it differently, gender is something you DO, not something you ARE.

Vishra is female because Vishra says she's female. Hence using "She" is appropriate, and using "He" would be inappropriate...it's not what she is.

End of story.

You don't have to agree with it, but that doesn't mean that it's invalid. Personally, that's what I believe gender to be (and if you'd read a few books on the subject, you'd understand)

And as for the argument that ACT with a "She" is telling people what to think....I'm gonna say it for the 50th time. ANY TIME you use a pronoun in ACT, you are *telling* the other person what to believe in terms of your character's gender. This is not something that just Vishra is doing.

Again, the real issue here isn't the abuse of ACT. It's a discomfort with the recognition that gender is a whole lot more arbitrary than most of us would believe. Vishra reserves the right to determine what her gender is. You don't get to rob her of that by falling back on a very weak "mechanics" argument.

Take your own definition of gender, that's fine. But don't expect everyone else to believe it too. It's not that cut and dry.

[Pallon]

have cock = man

[Vishra]

That's your own definition. And it's not even a particularly good one. It's the definition of someone who hasn't thought things through very well at all. I could give you quite a few cases where this just doesn't hold.

Regardless, your definition doesn't get to be right simply because you believe it. You have to deal with the fact that other people may be running under a different idea of what gender is.

[Sean]

You still havn't explained how abritrarily swapping between the two is anymore more than an attention grabbing gimmick.

Since we are discussing the ACT verb and not speech if this is true...

"Vishra is female because Vishra says she's female. Hence using "She" is appropriate, and using "He" would be inappropriate...it's not what she is. "

than using "he" as you admit is inappropriate so why use them interchangably. I'll refer you to my previous example from the 1st post in the thread...

(Vishra begins to smooth out the folds in her skirt and dust off her bodice, taking a moment to fluff up her sleeves)

Vishra carefully brushes his waist length black hair into place, taking care to style it just right.

Vishra carefully pulls his ruby-encrusted hairbrush through his waist length black hair, smoothing out the tangles and snarls.

The 1st one uses she and the next 2 use he. If gender is something changed by what you do and not what you are how are the 2nd and 3rd actions anymore masculine in gender than the 1st? They all have the same general action the act of smoothing or straightening. But you chose to use ACT for the 1st and declare yourself as a female and then knowing that the next 2 have the game determined male gender you use them anyway. This is inconsistant and just plain stupid.



[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Tijay]

[Vishra]

>The 1st one uses she and the next 2 use he. If gender is something changed by what you do and not what you are how are the 2nd and 3rd actions anymore masculine in gender than the 1st? They all have the same general action the act of smoothing or straightening. But you chose to use ACT for the 1st and declare yourself as a female and then knowing that the next 2 have the game determined male gender you use them anyway. This is inconsistant and just plain stupid.

Apparently you haven't read a thing I've posted. But, to indulge, I'll explain this again.

Vishra is trans, which means that she represents a disconnect between the gendered body and the gendered identification. As such, different characters are more likely to disagree as to how they will perceive her gender than with a different gendered performance (though people can STILL disagree when it comes to non-gender deviant characters). So I put BOTH out there, 1. to communicate to the other players what kind of character they're dealing with (it's called roleplaying kids) and 2. to give that honest interpretation to allow them to come to their own conclusions instead of forcing them to come to one conclusion or another (like most characters in this game do, and which, ironically, people here have accused Vishra of doing).

It's not stupid. It's careful, considerate, and deliberate. It allows for better RP with Vishra and more freedom for other characters.

if that bothers you...that's your problem, certainly not mine or Vish's.

[Vishra]

I'll also point out that even if this were NOT a deliberate action of mine...the verbs with HE in them are not ones that *I* created. I use them because they're built into scripts of items and pre-existing verbs.

And it wouldn't be "better" RP never to use a scripted item or most of the verbs in Gemstone. The fact that you are somehow suggesting this tells me that it's not really "better" RP you're concerned with.

Putting Vish into that kind of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" double-bind isn't productive. It's stupid.

[Sean]

For the record, I'm not bothered by anything you do. You could play a dwarf thats 7' tall and has a penis on his back and I wouldn't be bothered nor would my character. I am however of the mindset that your inconsistancies actually detract more from your character than they add to your character. I also disagree with how you the player communicate your ideas about your character to other players and their characters. But you are right you can do whatever you want as long as a GM doesn't stop you.

[CrystalTears]

If you wanted to be "she", you should have rolled into a female body.

The game doesn't support transgender characters, so if you want to play one, portray it through your roleplay. Using the mechanics to explain your intent is incorrect.

Do whatever you want, I'll still disagree with your choice of ACTing.

And again, for the 50000000000th fucking time, your roleplay choice is NOT the argument here, strictly how you're choosing to portray it with the ACT. Quit with the "this is roleplaying kids" condescending shit. We know what roleplaying is. We're just asking that you conform to the rules the rest of us follow. You don't want to? That's fine. Use your beloved GMs as a crutch. It still doesn't make it right.

[HarmNone]

I don't think any of us really care all that much what you do with your character, Vishra. We were pointing out things we see as muddying the character you're trying to create. Were Vishra to speak in third person all the time, you could create what you're trying to create without the glaring inconsistencies. I think it would work much better than using the ACT command the way you're using it. If you don't see it that way, that is certainly your choice.

HarmNone

[Weedmage Princess]

Fact: Male = born with male genitalia.
Female = born with female genitalia.

That's just how it is. Now yes, in this day and age you can have surgery that allows you to switch...but only to a point. (No matter how many shots of estrogen a man might get, he's not going to have female reproductive organs.)

How you "think", "feel" doesn't change how you were born.

Again, do what you want. You can make any argument you want, but the FACT is...you're abusing the act verb; this is not based on an "opinion of mine" but rather on the way the rules of using said verb were explained to me and others.

BY SIMU STAFF (ie GMs, GHs, etc)

That's pretty much the bottom line. Like others said, I really don't care. Hell, I don't even play Prime so I'll never even have to witness it. I do know if someone pulled that crap in Plat, it wouldn't be long til a GH or GM came along and had a little talk with you regarding that--your ABUSE OF THE ACT VERB.

Who knows? Maybe they enforce the rules a bit more if you're willing to spend the extra cash. :shrug:


[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Vishra]

>Again, do what you want. You can make any argument you want, but the FACT is...you're abusing the act verb; this is not based on an "opinion of mine" but rather on the way the rules of using said verb were explained to me and others.

And I will do what I want. And, again, the GMs have made it clear that it is NOT an abuse of ACT. So saying it over and over again doesn't mean a thing. There's no violation, they consider it to be an acceptable use. They had people REPORT it, they said "We're aware of the situation, don't worry about it". They gave her 7 RPAs, and every time she used "She" in her ACT (because SHE is a SHE)

And every "suggestion" here is aimed to altering her gender identity in a way that is more comprehensible to the individual players. Trying to ground her back into a gender system that doesn't suit her IS a roleplaying change. Saying it's just a "mechanics issue" belies the truth. People are confused by the fact that She can decide to be a She (that gender is something we decide to do), and they want a "He" back in her ACTIONS in order to verify their own ideas of gender. But Vish doesn't fit that, and using "He" or putting her in a female body would misrepresent and change who she is. That's all roleplay under the friendly guise of "mechanics".

>How you "think", "feel" doesn't change how you were born.

Female identified person loses her overies and breasts to cancer, or is simply born without. Still a woman.

Male identified person loses his penis due to an accident, or is born with amiguous genitalia. Still a man.

Gender is ALL what you and other people think. There is no direct correlation to bodies except in the fact that gender allows us to alter bodies in order to maintain our gender system.

Here's a cute fact for everyone. Chromosomally, there are five different types of "biological" sex. But we only have a two gender system.

The "fact of life" don't support our system. It's all culture. It's all how we think about it. Vishra is just an example of what everyone else does every day. And the style of roleplay I use is the most accurate portrayal of who she is. I'm not about to compromise it so people can have their quaint notions of how gender works undisrupted.

They could always make a rusty-spoon "sex-changing" device, but I think it would go against play.net's E rating. I dunno though.

[Weedmage Princess]

:rolleyes: ::coughs::BULLSHIT::coughs::

I realize I'm getting no where with you...you keep bringing up your roleplaying and alleged RPAs, etc. and ignore the fact that Simu staff has described what you're doing with the act verb as ABUSE. It just doesn't matter...but one quick point to make, to refute this bunk of crap:

>>Gender is ALL what you and other people think.<<

Taken from the dictionary:


gen·der (jndr)
n.

The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.


So uh..if you say so, lady....

But you know (and this is more for the others scratching their head at this) if it's true that the GMs actually do acknowledge what she does and say nothing about her abusing the act verb like that, it proves a theory that I and many others have about Prime and Simu..and makes sense.

I said earlier that something like this would not go over well in Plat...The players would recognize what she's doing for what it is, playing outside the confines of the game by abusing the act verb, and they'd go into lunar orbit if she continued after a few friendly reminders. Simu staff would then speak to her/him/whatever and resolve the situation. See, if people want to actually play the game as it's supposed to be played (A medieval fantasy roleplaying game and within the confines given to us by Simutronics) ..you'll need to upgrade your subscription. The reason this would happen there and not in Prime I'd think is because this is how they market their higher end product. Want to play a game where they actually enforce the rules? Shell out the extra cash and you won't have to deal with people like that. People like her, people like Solescape, Rasko and his band of merry twits and various others...they'll make sure those sorts don't last long on the other side. I mean hell, read the advertisement for Plat, they say it themselves:


More Opportunities for Roleplay
Tired of out of character gibberish, lame references to real world events, and powerhunters? The tight-knit community of Platinum focuses on roleplay above advancement. Even character transfers between accounts are heavily monitored to reduce the impact on the roleplaying community.

Now, I mean...don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Simu for that...they're a business, their goal is to make money just like any other business. But I know there are people who are wondering "Hey, how come she's getting away with that when I can remember getting reprimanded for in essence, doing the same thing?" Some have said favortism perhaps...I don't think so...I think that's why.


[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Sean]

It's only confusing because your arbitrary and inconsistant. I get the idea of what your trying to convey, and hell I applaud you for doing something different. I still am not convinced that randomly swapping the He/She verb is better for your character.

[Sean]

I also find it interesting while you and galleazzo bitch about conformity and being pigeon holed you have no problem generalizing and putting "everyone" else who disagrees with you in the same classification.

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Tijay]

[CrystalTears]

You're not getting that the ACTs are words spoken from one player to another, not from one character to another. It's the same concept as AS/DS, dice rolls, lock/trap numbers... these are all information for the player not the characters.

Basically when you put down "she" instead of "he", you're telling the player that this is a woman, both physically, emotionally and psychologically and that's the way it is. No sorry, it's not, and you're just confusing the situation even more. Biologically and physically it's still a male.

I hate bringing it up but I must, it's the same principle as someone saying that they are a kobold. SAY and ROLEPLAY that you're a kobold all you want. Truly believe that you grew up and look like one. Putting on kobold ears, kobold tail, kobold feet and a kobold nose on a halfling doesn't change the fact that it's a halfling. Just a halfling in kobold clothing. The minute they do an ACT saying that they are a kobold, it's considered abuse because it's NOT a kobold, it's a halfling. Accept it AS A PLAYER and reflect your actions as such.

You're right, the mechanics don't support transgender behavior, just as it doesn't support PC kobolds and roltons. Gee, maybe because that was never an intention for the game, which is why they like keeping it as a family game. In all honesty, people don't give a flying fig what your sexual preference is in the game and they don't want it shoved in their face about it. But if you're going to do it, that's fine.

No one's telling you to stop being a transgender character. Roleplaying is always applauded and encouraged, however all we're asking is that you do it responsibly and don't flop between pronouns to suit your roleplaying needs. Such a "great" roleplayer won't NEED to flop the pronouns to get the point across.

:soapbox: :banghead:

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by CrystalTears]

[DianaBanana]

CrystalTears, your last paragraph says it all. :worship:

[Latrinsorm]

Again, the real issue here isn't the abuse of ACT.Either you're calling me a liar, or you have terrible reading comprehension. Which is it going to be?

[Vishra]

>You're not getting that the ACTs are words spoken from one player to another, not from one character to another. It's the same concept as AS/DS, dice rolls, lock/trap numbers... these are all information for the player not the characters.

>Basically when you put down "she" instead of "he", you're telling the player that this is a woman, both physically, emotionally and psychologically and that's the way it is. No sorry, it's not, and you're just confusing the situation even more. Biologically and physically it's still a male.

Um, ACT is between both characters AND players. It's completely IC, so it's between characters. But, like everything else we do, it's also between players since that's the source of the action as well as the primary audience.

Biology doesn't define gender kids. You can toss out Webster's all you want, but it's not exactly a defining text for these matters. Try quoting a gender theorist or GenderPAC, or something relevant.

It is ONLY an abuse if you believe that biology = the entirety of gender.

If you don't, there's no abuse. Sorry, we don't all believe that biology = entirety of gender (hence the examples of the woman without "female" biological parts and the man without "male" biological parts...as well as the chromosome example which proves that our gender system is not rooted in biology....rather it's only the way in which we *talk about* the gender system that references biology), then there's no cut-and-dry "This is an abuse".

Again, all of the criticisms that try to state that it is an abuse are centered around an incorrect hedgemonic assumption about what gender means. You're welcome to that assumption, but you are not welcome to enforce your assumption on others.

There is also a tendancy in this discussion to focus solely on the ACT to define her gender performance. I've made it very clear that it's a *composite* performance (which it always is). The entirety of her gender is that disconnect between gendered body and gendered identification, which is performed by a "He" body and a "She" in ACTs, along with some "He"s in a few verbs. Again, it is the most honest gender portrayal I've seen in Gemstone. She's upfront about gender ambiguity and allows characters to interpret differently.

What people here are attempting to mandate is 1. a gender normative character (which would be the result of following along with the criticisms) and 2. a more dishonest and forceful way of portraying gender. You toss out an ACT with a "He" in it and a "He" body and my character is being expected to register the character as a "He". My character may know nothing about gendered differences in different races, my character may be blind, my character may be seeing yours from so far away that they can't tell. But the way people here are trying to force the gender performance to work, I have to carve out my own space for dissent and misinterpretation of gendered performance. With Vishra, that space is already wide open.

Again I say, this isn't a mechanics issue. People are just trying to erase a way of thinking about gender that conflicts with their own.

>Either you're calling me a liar, or you have terrible reading comprehension. Which is it going to be?

Neither. The two options you have presented me with neither fit the situation appropriately nor do they adequately represent the actual choices I can make. Very similar to the gender system and expectations that you're trying to impose on Vish via a mechanics argument.


>Gee, maybe because that was never an intention for the game, which is why they like keeping it as a family game

Lots of lines like this snuck into the "mechanics" arguments. They're very telling.


>Such a "great" roleplayer won't NEED to flop the pronouns to get the point across.

On the contrary. Once again, the gender identity Vishra has is DEFINED by the juxtaposition of genders. By something that crosses the boundaries of intelligibility, that doesn't fit neatly into either category. Your discomfort with this style is really a discomfort with this idea of gender. But it's a valid way of thinking about gender, and it's what her gendered performance is. Any trans character is, by definition, confusing. It breaks down barriers and assumptions about gender. The first reaction is always to either reassimilate that person back into the gender binary and common assumptions about gender...or to eliminate them entirely. That's precisely what's going on here, with people going back and forth on which one is most appropriate.


>you keep bringing up your roleplaying and alleged RPAs

Alleged. I like that. They're real. And I keep track. You'll have to deal with that if you're going to scream out that Vish is abusing ACT. If she were abusing ACT, she wouldn't have this many RPAs. (And I'm not saying she gets the RPAs FOR the way she performs her gender....there's a LOT more to Vish than that. She gets her RPAs for dealing with a variety of situations well and consistently). If it were an abuse, a GM would've given her a SEND by now saying "Cut it out" instead of "We're aware of the situation. Don't worry about it".

Again, people here aren't really interested in whether or not it's a mechanics abuse (since a mechanics abuse is specifically defined by what the GMs say it is). They're worried about something else entirely, and citing a "mechanics" abuse is a way to loop back to a person's own discomfort with the assumptions of gender and gendered performances Vishra represents. (It's only an abuse if you hold certain assumptions; people then cite "mechanics abuse" with those assumptions in mind, which has the effect of forcing those gendered assumptions back onto Vishra without having to tell them that).

[CrystalTears]

I can tell you don't know me (or any of us for that matter) because you have this feeling that what your playing is a problem with me and I've said over and over (and over) again that it's not. My saying that the game wasn't intended to have PCs playing transgenders, hookers, lesbians, gays, kobolds, roltons, werewolves, pixies, flowerpots, roses and so forth because of mechanics isn't a prejudice or an opinion, it's a FACT. But you can still do it and it's allowed, so long as you follow the basic ACT rules.

You can play a kiramon, tree-hugging, transvestite that was manifested from a maple tree by a wizard for all I care. I just wanted you to accept that the mechanics don't allow for you to chose a body and dance around the mechanics because you choose to play that way.

I haven't made ANY assumptions about you but you've made plenty about the people who disagree with your methods of the ACT command. They haven't lectured your decision, just this particular style and you've been the condescending one.

The way you've been answering you'd think we were telling you to roleplay a man, be a man and dress like a man. All we've been saying is, your rolled up character is a male, so the pronouns need to stay as such.

My god the trauma! We're making you change your roleplaying by asking to change ONE word in your acting! The horror! /sarcasm Or maybe you're STILL not understanding what we're saying since you continue to bring up the parts where this is roleplay.

By the way, GMs don't do squat about people slightly abusing an ACT command. Hell they don't even do anything to the OOC people. What do they do? They joke with them and send an 1000 AS hobgoblin after them for kicks. Yeah they're the roleplaying police. They'll only go after the vagrantly bad ones where they flap their wings and take off into flight or using the ACT to speak when you've been silenced.

Continue as you have. Just don't get upset with people for them feeling that you're doing something against the rules and we tried to explain it and you turned a snobby cheek. :bye:

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Trinitis]

Have you ever thought about maybe, just maybe the reason the GM's have not said anything about your ACTs, is because they really do have better things to do? They let ACT command abuse go on all the time. Stuff CLEARLY defined as abuse. Just because they don't say anything does not mean they agree and accept what your doing.

[Faent]

>>Not to invoke a hierarchy, but in social sciences the idea that gender is something you "Are" as opposed to something you "Do" is considered to be incorrect and out-dated. -Vishra's Player

You should have meant: "Not to invoke a hierarchy, but in social 'sciences' the idea..." Please, social science is bullshit.

All the below is from _After Virtue_, Chapter 8 "The Character of Generalizations in Social Science and their Lack of Predictive Power", Alisdair MacIntyre

"Consider for example four highly interesting generalizations that have been advanced by modern social scientists. The first is James C. Davies famous thesis (1962) which generalizes - to revolutions as a class - Tocqueville's observation that the French revolution occurred when a period of rising and to some degree gratified expectations was followed by a period of set-back when the expectations continued to rise and were sharply dissapointed. The second is Oscar Newman's generalization that the crime rate rises in high-rise buildings with the heigh of the building up to a height of thirteen floors, but at more than thirteen floors levels off (Newman 1973, p. 25). The third is Egon Bittner's discovery of the differences between the understanding of the import of law emobied in police work and the understanding of that same import embodied in the practices of cours and of lawyers (Bittner 1970). The fourth is the contention advanced by Rosalind and Ivo Feierabend (1966) that the most and least modernized societies are the most stable and least violent, whereas those at midpoint in the approach to modernity are most liable to instability and political violence. All four of these generalizations rest on distinguished research; all are buttressed by an impressive set of confirming instances. But they share three notable characteristics. First of all, they all coexist in their disciplines with recognized counter-examples, and the recognition of these counterexamples - if not by the authors of the generalizations themselves, at least by collleagues at work in the same areas - does not seem to affect the standing of the generalizations in physics or chemistry."

"Indeed in the notorious article by Karl Deutsch, John Platt, and Dieter Senghors (Science, March 1971) where sixty-two alleged major social science achievements are listed it is impressive that in not a single case is the predictive power of the theories listed assessed in statistical terms - a wise precaution, given the author's point of view. That the social sciences are predictively weak and that they do not discover law-like generalizations may clearly turn out to be two symptoms of the same condition. But what is that condition? Ought we simply to conclude that predictive weakness reinforces the conclusion implied by the conjunction of the conventional philosophy of social science and the facts about what social scientists do and do not achieve; namely, that the social sciences have substantially failed at their task?"

"Thirdly, these generalizations do not entail any well-defined set of counterfactual conditionals in the way that the law-like generalizations of physics and chemistry do. We do not know how to apply them systematically beyond the limits of observation to unobserved or hypothetical instances. Thus they are not laws, whatever else they may be. What then is their status? To respond to this question is not going to be easy...."

-Scott

[Stunseed]

< You can play a kiramon, tree-hugging, transvestite that was manifested from a maple tree by a wizard for all I care. >

Now THAT's roleplay. Also once again, I think CT and Adredrin hit the nail on the head.

[Vishra]

>Have you ever thought about maybe, just maybe the reason the GM's have not said anything about your ACTs, is because they really do have better things to do?

With the number of REPORTS people filed when Vish first entered the game? No, it hasn't occured to me. They had to make a decision, and they made it. And they certainly wouldn't reward her if she were constantly in violation.


The Quoted Article:

Interesting article that ultimately says nothing. You'll notice a severe reliance on natural sciences methologies as foundational for some assessment of quality. One, gender theory is discursive analysis mostly, which can't be put into statistics. Two, interestingly enough, the author in that passage is concerned with no inclusion of the counter-examples. Gender theory was largely built upon counter-examples and the ways in which they made the way we talk about gender illogical as the way we actually live gender (and, in fact, has called into question a number of "facts of biology" [as a discipline] through this methodology, which makes one wonder if the auther's analysis is really specific to social sciences and what their agenda was). Finally, a single article criticizing ALL of the social sciences in general doesn't really tell us much. Unless of course you're willing to toss them all out based on an incredibly general and shallow analysis.

Try something actually dealing with gender instead of a ridiculous argument that generalizes about social sciences and then tries to call into question all of the conclusions they have drawn while upholding the "facts" of the natural sciences as unabashedly correct and superior in methological scope and rigor to their counterparts.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Vishra
Neither. The two options you have presented me with neither fit the situation appropriately nor do they adequately represent the actual choices I can make. Very similar to the gender system and expectations that you're trying to impose on Vish via a mechanics argument.I said, specifically, that the only thing I cared about was the ACT problem. You said that I did not, and that what I really cared about was my supposed Puritannical inability to comprehend anything but male and female. Therefore, either you are calling me a liar, or you are unable to comprehend the written word. Come to think of it, actually, you could also be making a baseless generalization or being contrary for the sake of being contrary. I would assume an adult of age 65+ (which you would have to be to refer to everyone here as kids) would be above these last two.

As for your chromosomal 5-sex argument, I have a problem for you: There's no biology even closely resembling Earth's in Elanthia. Check out the half-krolvin histories if you don't believe me.

Finally, as I think this is being missed, characters DO NOT use the ACT verb. Players DO use the ACT verb. To suggest otherwise is wrong.

[Artha]

Interesting article that ultimately says nothing.

Reminds me of someone's posts. Except for the interesting part.


edit: Except the article couldn't find a way to mention how many RPAs it got, or how amazingly credible it's sources were.

[Edited on 7-4-2004 by Artha]

[Vesi]

First, you have stated that by using her, she, etc... that you are forcing other players to see your character as you wish to be seen. Number one rule of ACT mechanics abuse is using it to make people believe that something that isn't there should be. Big no no.

Second, let's just try this small example. Vishra has a blue hairbrush. Alas, Vishra wants everyone to believe that it's a red hairbrush because it really should have been red to start with. So...

Vishra waves the blue hairbrush through the air.

(Vishra waves the red hairbrush through the air.)

Now... does Vishra have a blue hairbrush or a red one? Well, gosh darn, Vishra has a blue one. And no amount of using ACT is going to change that fact. Most all of us are trying to tell you this has nothing to do with gender. (however you keep focusing on that... hence my hairbrush example) It is mechanics abuse and if you're too thick to see that then stay up on that high horse and abuse mechanics to your heart's content.

Vesi

P. S. This almost reminds me of when Klaive tried to convince everyone he was a werewolf or something because he could use ACT to convey that he was growing fangs. (I can't remember the specifics)

Edited to fix an error.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Vesi]

[HarmNone]

In short, it is not possible to convey gender duality with the mechanics in place in GemStoneIV. Why this is so difficult to understand, I am at a loss to explain. What I do know is this: the way you are doing it does NOT convey what you are trying to get across. :rolleyes:

HarmNone

[Edaarin]

Oscar Wilde is more succinct than you are.

Anyone here actually reading all of these walls of text? Half of a good argument is in the presentation.

[Vesi]

Originally posted by Edaarin

Anyone here actually reading all of these walls of text? Half of a good argument is in the presentation.

I only had one 'wall o text'! heh

Vesi

[Vishra]

Succint doesn't mean you're more accurate. Sometimes arguments aren't simplistic. And if your argument can only be right, in comparison to another argument, because it's more simplistic...that says a LOT more about your argument than it does about the competing ideal.

Honestly, to argue that something it harder to understand than another thing is to argue...sorry, it means YOU have things to work on.

[Vesi]

Originally posted by Vishra
Succint doesn't mean you're more accurate. Sometimes arguments aren't simplistic. And if your argument can only be right, in comparison to another argument, because it's more simplistic...that says a LOT more about your argument than it does about the competing ideal.

Honestly, to argue that something it harder to understand than another thing is to argue...sorry, it means YOU have things to work on.

Oh my... pot calling the kettle black and all that.

Why did you skip my post? I presented a valid arguement/example there.

Vesi

[Weedmage Princess]

I think Vesi gave a perfect example of what you're doing, Vishra. Yet you haven't addressed it. I'll repeat it for you in the event you've missed it.

Vesi has a blue hairbrush but for whatever reason she believes, feels, thinks and all that beyond the shadow of a doubt it's red. The game SHOWS it as blue...so Vesi does this.

Vesi waves a blue hairbrush around.

act Vesi waves her red hairbrush around.

(Vesi waves her red hairbrush around.)

.....justify this for us, please.

[Scott]

Who needs alters.

act taps his blood red cloak of doom stitched with doom thread with death runes surround the large silver button that says "I AM GOD, BOW TO ME!"
>
Scott taps his blood red cloak of doom stitched with doom thread with death runes surround the large silver button that says "I AM GOD, BOW TO ME!"

Tell me, does that make sense? The game says "a silver cloak" but I want it to be a blood red cloak of doom stitched with doom thread with death runes surround the large silver button that says "I AM GOD, BOW TO ME!" SO, what I do is use the act command so that it is what I WANT it to be, but it still just "a silver cloak." Is that abuse?

[Weedmage Princess]

WTF SINTIK DONT YOU GET IT?!?! That cloak isn't really "a silver cloak." That's just how other people PERCEIVE IT! But ever since you were born, that cloak was blood red with death runes that say you are God and to bow to you. Therefore that's what it is and anyone who doesn't agree with you abusing the act verb to force YOUR perceptions on THEM is a tight ass close minded snob who doesn't post on the prime boards because they just want to swear all the god damn fuckity fuck fuck time!!!!!!!!!!!1

Don't let them force your perceptions on you!! FIGHT THE POWER MY BROTHER!

[Edaarin]

Crazy ass bitch...

I'm not sure to whom that refers to. But it's 100% true.

[AnticorRifling]

He's right. Acting about something that you don't have is wrong.

I could act hands you 100000000 silvers

I don't have those silvers so it's abuse.

You do this act blah blah blah she(meaning having boobs and a vag which you don't have) blah blah

You don't have those boobs or vag so it's abuse.

And the argument of "Well I've gotten RPA this and RPA that" doesn't hold any weight. I've had an RPA for making fun of a GM via report (which is report abuse). So trying to get us to believe that RPA = non abuse + good RP, just won't work.

[Sean]

I got an RPA for casting summon invasion, I mean commune. I R GOD.

[Weedmage Princess]

You know you meant me Edaarin. I will now go off to a dark corner to cry.

[Sean]

Eesh menopausal women are so moody.

[Shalla]

Ok, we all agree with the limitation of text and how things are perceived and conveyed in gemstone.

Personally for me.. when I look at someone who is transgendered.. so far, the ones I've met through a friend is someone who is absolutely passable for a woman. This person was absolutely beautiful, beautiful in fact that I can honestly say she is prettier than some women. (genetic)

I was then told that she was in fact he. I couldn't believe it. My first impression was She.. I look at her as she.. Vishra dresses as she, addresses herself as she.

When you observe Vishra's actions WITHOUT typing Look Vishra.. You would instinctively think she's a She. She dresses like a she.. Why wouldn't you think she's a she? She "ACTS" like a she doesn't she? When you play gemstone, you're supposed to be immersed in the illusion as if you are actually THERE without reading the text. With that logic.. We all have the power to perceive other people's sexuality in gemstone that we cannot do in real life.. Even though it is expertly disguised.

The word ACT means

Act: Something done, an ACTion, a deed, the process of doing something.. It can also mean a behaviour intended to decieve or impress.

YOU Cannot change the colour of a brush by your ACTIONS.. Acting out in gemstone that the brush is blue when it is in fact red.. IS abuse. As for vishra's sexuality or gender.. IT CAN be masked by dressing and ACTING like a woman.. only when you LOOK will you realize she is not what you thought she was.

I have seen transgendered people from junk mails.. and the way they look.. They look like a woman. I have no reason to believe they are not.. UNTIL the fact that I saw that the title was "chicks with dicks" If I had not seen that.. I would never have known. The same thing applies with the "LOOK" verb.

The whole blue red brush thing IS ABUSE. Because you are changing something in your hand that is in fact blue. The same thing can be said for Vishra.. BUT she is dressed like a woman.. look like a woman... ACTS like a woman.. so therefore by first impression she IS a woman.. Until of course you examine her and type "LOOK" vishra.. and realize she is after all a chick with a dick.

You would not know a transgendered person unless you grab "IT". or examine her/he.


ps. I have never said the she word so much in my life.


[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Lady Shalla]

[Weedmage Princess]

Yes but Shalla, when you LOOK at Vishra, you see that **HE** has whatever color eyes, you see that **HE** has whatever color hair, you see that **HE** appears to be a Faendryl, you see what **HE** is wearing. **HE** , not **SHE** ...so initially, we see what WE perceive to be a **HE** not a **SHE.** That's the FIRST thing you see when looking at Vishra-- ********HIS******** physical attributes, not hers. It's established early on that this person is MALE. Therefore, I'm looking at a MAN. Perhaps a feminine looking man, a man who wants to be a woman, transgendered, whatever...but a man none the less is what everyone else sees. By abusing the act verb in the manner Vishra's player is, is not only contradicting what we initially see but it's forcing us to view the character the way the player views it--that's the problem. It's no different from the brush thing. Not at all.

[Shalla]

That's the thing though.. When vishra is ACTing out.. you would instinctively think she's a she. Until you type Look.

Reality wise.. When you Look at a person in real life.. You don't see a profile that says that his person is in fact a HE. Isn't the purpose of roleplaying and being in gemstone not just a game.. but to be decieved of one's perception?

Having a look command is an advantage that is abuse for that genre, or in reality itself. Profiles.. and things that allows us to view and to label others as something WE shouldn't and not supposedly have knowledge of is out of character on it's own. We have to draw the line on roleplaying and mechanics. It's Mechanics that allows us to Gain insight that this feminine looking individual is in fact a he.


Edit: I edited it to make sense.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Lady Shalla]

[Scott]

But the thing is.....

When you look at someone and it says "HE" that means that YOU the character think that it's a he. So therefore I see that it is a he. If Vishra was so realistic as a woman, it would say "SHE."

Still, playing along that we don't know it's a woman. We'll use Weedie as an example because if I put myself... it will make someones signature. Say Weedie grabs a handful of Vishra balls.... now she knows it's a he. Weedie KNOWS it's a he, yet Vishra is still using the act command to say it's a she.... Weedie knows it's a he, but still Vishra is forcing her to believe it's a she...

[Shalla]

Yes.. There lies the flaw.

It would be unfair for the others who has not had the advantage/disadvantage of grabbing vishra's balls. Until Weedie grabs vishra's balls.. She should not have any idea of her sexuality.


[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Lady Shalla]

[Sean]

But your missing the one of the points. These are clues for the PLAYER not the CHARACTER. When I look at someone its context for the player because its in text. When someone does an act its for me the player to read and make up my mind how my character would react. My character doesn't see Vishra switching between pronouns. I the player do. Vishra isn't convincing my character that he/she is transgendered shes deciding what I the player am seeing. Words amd emotes and various other context clues are what my CHARACTER would pick up on not the pronoun in the act. I still stand by its just an attention getting gimmick for an attention whore.

[Shalla]

Also, I wanted to add. Yes.. When you type look at vishra you would know that she is a he. but he is still ACTing like a she.

It would be abuse for vishra is she did this..

Act Vishra masturbates like crazy with her blue brush in her vagina

Vishra masturbates like crazy with her blue brush in her vagina.

She does not have a pussy.. she does not have a blue brush. She cannot do that. That is abuse..

But once again, for first impressions.. You would think she's a she. Like I said.. The look command allows us to perceive things that we should not be perceiving.. because when we look in real life.. we just look at the cosmetic and facade of what the PERSON wants us to believe.


Edit: For the switching of pronouns.. Vishra shouldn't be doing that. I personally think she should stick to one thing.. which is SHE because she looks like a she.


[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Lady Shalla]

[GSLeloo]

My only question is if you wanted to act as a female character why not make the character female in the beginning? Because no matter what the character is male if it's male and even if you wear female clothing you're still male.

[Shalla]

Player of wanted to make a transgendered character.. like male-female. Being female to begin with wouldn't make her transgendered.

It's just as confusing in real life really. :spaz:

[Sean]

Eh, I think it's an interesting and premise (not one that I would undertake) and that it can be done. But I think it can also be done within the rules that the game put forth, and that her use of the act verb is not only a problem but a complete cop out.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Tijay]

[Scott]

"She" doesn't look like a she! She dresses like one, that's it. When I look at "her" it says HE which means "she" looks like a guy! LOOKing at someone in Gemstone is just like looking at a picture. When I look, it's a he, that's what I see.

[Weedmage Princess]

That's the point, Shalla. You're calling it "a failure of game mechanics." It's not that, it's called "playing within the confines and or parameters of the game." Just like Simutronics does not support the option to choose the kobold race, Simutronics does not support the option to select any other possibile genders other than "he" or "she." I could buy the gimmick a bit more if maybe the character had one of those feature hiding cloaks or whatever...but... The description you see when you LOOK at something is given to us to help our characters ascertain whatever we're looking at. You see she acts like a she and all that but when I look at this person, I'm still SEEING a HE. Take the wording "He appears.." Obviously, Simu decides for us that there is something within the character's physical attributes that allow us to determine whether the person is a HE or a SHE. Again, the parameters and confines of the game. Rules to which we're supposed to adhere to. Just like when I look at Pattie the Halfling, I see a halfling, not a Kobold. By abusing the act verb, the player is forcing perceptions on us, because hey, we see something EARLY ON in the character that tells us it's a male. Maybe it's the Adam's apple, the Jawbone...something is there that makes us identify Vishra as a male.

Again, if Vishra was to get one of those feature hiding cloaks or shapes...then it could be pulled off...but otherwise, no. Stick to the parameters of the game.

On that note, I'm gonna roll up a troll king.

Edited to give credit where it's due--Props to Shalla for being able to argue her point without attacking/labeling everyone.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Lady Shalla
Edit: For the switching of pronouns.. Vishra shouldn't be doing that. I personally think she should stick to one thing.. which is SHE because she looks like a she.

That's fine and dandy. However that would mean that Vishra can't ever use a game command EVER because they will ALWAYS use HE, not SHE. EVERYTHING would have to be an ACT. Let's face it, that's insane of a request.

This conversation is getting absurd. No one is questioning the roleplay or the subject matter. If that issue is brought up again I'm going to get angry. And you won't like me when I'm angry.

Regardless of whether this person were a real or game character, when you see someone who is behaving, appearing and dressing like a female, there is usually that element of "are they really? something is not right" and then you LOOK harder and see "oh yes, no way that's a female" because that person will always carry characteristics of the gender they were born with. Without surgery and a vast amount of hormone treatment, they will always remain.

As I said before, call me a homophobic all you want (which is the funniest thing I've ever been called), but the fact remains that the game was not designed mechanically to play a transgender character, just as it wasn't meant to play a kobold, rolton, kiramon, werewolf, pixie fairy (although it's damn close with that altoid thing), or whathaveyou. However they won't stop you if you wish to play those type of characters, but you still need to play by the rules and express your change through roleplay without breaking the ACT rules.

To say because a GM hasn't verbally asked you to stop doesn't mean that it's not abuse. I've witnessed and heard about people flapping their wings and soaring into the air, flying around on a broom, flapping their wings to release pixie dust, opening up a void from another dimension and dragging people through it. They still do and perhaps get an RPA for it because you know what? At this stage of the game, if someone even attempts roleplay anymore, it's a fargin' miracle and they award it, no matter how wrong it is. They applaud the attempt.

If they don't take care of the blatent OOC occurrences, what makes you think they'll come out of the woodwork to tell you that you're crossing the borderlines of what's acceptable? "Look someone roleplayed! Slap them an RPA, that was really funny!" Yes but mechanically they can't do that? "Oh who cares, they're roleplaying aren't they? Big miracle!"

[Vesi]

Originally posted by Lady Shalla

It would be abuse for vishra is she did this..

Act Vishra masturbates like crazy with her blue brush in her vagina

Vishra masturbates like crazy with her blue brush in her vagina.

She does not have a pussy.. she does not have a blue brush. She cannot do that. That is abuse..



Ack! My poor hairbrush is being used as a play toy! <grabs back her blue hairbrush>

Anyway... ahem. Even in my example of using act to wave around a red hairbrush while in fact it was a blue one... no one would know it was actually blue unless they looked at me to see what color it was. That is the exact same arguement being used about Vishra. Act can be used to insert she and her all you want because as you say unless you look at the character you will think he is a she. Same with the actual blue hairbrush being made red by using the act command.

I agree with whoever said (and there are too many blasted posts) that using the mechanics that are in place to portray someone feminine would be better to use in this case. I can think of a couple offhand... flirt and sashay. There are more verbs that won't stick he or his in your actions also.

I stick by the fact that the main arguement here is the ACT abuse. I also am beginning to feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.

Vesi off to dress her blue hairbrush in a red dress.

[CrystalTears]

Here, Vesi. Have one of these on me. :banghead:

Oh and one of these. :drink:

[Edaarin]

Dear everyone

You're all just rehashing the same point over and over again.

Obviously Vishra is unable to explain it, and will obstinantly defend her point by responding to minor other details of your posts, after which you will again try to point out the abuse of act.

Concede, smile, nod, and let him/her/it continue to blatantly misuse the verb.

[CrystalTears]

Edaarin is right. It's official. :deadhorse:

[Vesi]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Here, Vesi. Have one of these on me. :banghead:

Oh and one of these. :drink:

It doesn't hurt to bang my head against the wall so much after several of those drinks. Thanks CT!

[Vesi]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Dear everyone

You're all just rehashing the same point over and over again.

Obviously Vishra is unable to explain it, and will obstinantly defend her point by responding to minor other details of your posts, after which you will again try to point out the abuse of act.

Concede, smile, nod, and let him/her/it continue to blatantly misuse the verb.

But, but, but... oh... all right. :yes:

[Vishra]

I think it's half fair to say I'm not explaining my point adequately. But half of the issue has been the refusal of those posting to stop and ask themselves how their own personal notions of gender are affecting their judgements. The other half is my unwillingness to get into the long, complicated argument about what gender *really* is. And I apologize for that.

So I'm going to lay it out, at least partially...

IF you believe that gender is something *ARE* and that calling someone "She" or "He" is merely referencing something that is already in existence...then yes, I can see an argument that might be made for Vishra's ACTs to be incorrect.

however, IF you believe that gender is something you DO, and you ARE a gender by virtue of DOING It properly, then there is no ACT abuse here. Now, I believe, as any other gender theorist believes and KNOWS, honestly; that gender is something you DO...that ALL of gender is a performance.

What people are somehow missing is that their idea of gender is subjective (and, I would argue, incorrect). Now, I haven't actually made the case for gender being something you "Do" and not something you are. I guess if people want me to, I will.

Ultimately, however, the fact that your own perceptions of gender may not be the only perception of gender is enough to call into question the very premises upon which the idea that Vishra's ACTs are "mechanics abuses" are based. And just accepting this should be enough to render these arguments moot.

Also, let me also state that gender is a *continuum* and not a binary system (though we talk about gender as though it were the latter). And as such, Vish's gender is *specifically* a transgressive one that calls into question the very gender binary that people in these arguments are relying on. "You are either male or female, you cannot be both nor either". That's cute and quaint, but not everyone believes that gender works that way. Vishra's gender is above and beyond that. She crosses the line between what is male and what is female, and it is up to your own character to determine how they were interpret her behavior. Yes, most characters will believe in a gender oppositional binary of male/female, so they will figure that Vishra is either male or female. However, those who don't buy into that will recognize that her gender does not neatly fit into either (though I will note that Vishra herself is fairly ignorant of gender and identifies as "She" because she can't fathom anything BUT He or She...She and I don't share the same gender ideals) category.

The bottom line is that Vish crosses the border of male/female, and that makes people very uncomfortable. So the first reaction is to identify Vish as either "he" or "she" based on subjective gender criteria. But not everyone shares those criteria. She can't silence her through a "mechanics" argument that allows your own personal vision of how gender works to maintain itself. She calls into question a standard notion of gender. But that fact doesn't make it invalid.

[Artha]

The bottom line is that Vish crosses the border of male/female, and that makes people very uncomfortable.

No. The bottom line is that your use of ACT is inappropriate.

[HarmNone]

Gah! It has nothing the fuck to do with gender! It has to do with the way GemStone is set up to be played. GemStone is NOT freeform roleplay. Your premise would go very well in that venue. However, the game-generated gender references within the GemStone framework make a mishmosh of what you're trying to do!

All the profound philosophical pronouncements you are trying to bring to the game are rendered meaningless by what the game does to them. :headbutt:

HarmNone shall now, politely, withdraw

[Vishra]

>Gah! It has nothing the fuck to do with gender! It has to do with the way GemStone is set up to be played. GemStone is NOT freeform roleplay. Your premise would go very well in that venue. However, the game-generated gender references within the GemStone framework make a mishmosh of what you're trying to do!

The Gemstone system is NOT set up to deal with a transgendered character, you're right.

But in this situation you have two choices: to uphold that or to say "That's a limitation that isn't accurate or fair".

If you uphold it, you're saying trans characters shouldn't exist. Or, rather, that if they DO exist, they can't REALLY be trans...they have to verify the gender assumptions built into the game system (which are representative of a particular bias and sent of gender assumptions)

If you say "People should be allowed to express their genders, or rather their characters' genders, as they see fit...then you are aknowledging that the limitations built into the system are themselves representative of a set of gendered hedgemonic assumptions that aren't fair or defacto accurate.

Again, falling back on mechanics is really just a displacement that truly represents a falling back on subjective ideologies.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Vishra
I think it's half fair to say I'm not explaining my point adequately. But half of the issue has been the refusal of those posting to stop and ask themselves how their own personal notions of gender are affecting their judgements. The other half is my unwillingness to get into the long, complicated argument about what gender *really* is. And I apologize for that.


:lol2: OMG you still think this is the reason. You just don't get it. Well I'm tired of explaining it. Nevermind. You win. I can't stand to see transgender character. You found me out. Whatever. I'm out of this debate. :rolleyes:

[DianaBanana]

Bah, nevermind. Some people just will never get it.

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by DianaBanana]

[Artha]

Again, falling back on mechanics is really just a displacement that truly represents a falling back on subjective ideologies.

Will you please, please, please STFU? You manage to have missed the point of all 7 pages of this thread. This is, quite frankly, amazing. I'll try to go over it again using small words and short sentences.

Vishra has a penis.
Vishra is a male.
YOU, the player, use ACT because no verb exists for what you are doing.
YOU, the player, use 'she' instead of 'he'.
YOU, the player, are wrong in this because Vishra is a male.
YOU, the player, are possibly one of the worst arguers ever.

[Vishra]

>Wow Vishra is clueless. Here, let me help you and open a can of

Having spent 5 years studying gender and having just explained that a few fundamental assumptions may actually just be that, assumptions...I wouldn't say that I'm the one who is clueless.

What is scary, of course, is that people can't say "I understand there's a different notion of gender, and it may be valid or not"; instead they HAVE to say "No, you're clueless" to maintain that their own assumptions about gender are flawless and immune to questioning.

very scary.

[HarmNone]

Shit, woman! Read what I said! GEMSTONE IS NOT A FREE-FORM ROLEPLAYING GAME! There are rules. There is that which is supported and that which is not supported. Why on earth would you want to try to do something that looks, to be boldly frank, idiotic because of the way the freaking game is written? PLAY A FREE-FORM ROLE-PLAYING GAME WHERE THIS KIND OF THING FITS! :shit:

HarmNone will now withdraw for real

[Artha]

Will you please quit missing the point?

[DianaBanana]

No, you are an idiot because you keep fighting something that simply isnt supported by game mechanics. We dont care that you want to be a s/he, people just want you to NOT ABUSE GAME MECHANICS. :talktohand:

[Vishra]

>Vishra has a penis.
Vishra is a male.
YOU, the player, use ACT because no verb exists for what you are doing.
YOU, the player, use 'she' instead of 'he'.
YOU, the player, are wrong in this because Vishra is a male.
YOU, the player, are possibly one of the worst arguers ever.

You haven't read a thing I was posting.

Otherwise you'd realize that the VERY assumption you just stated, which is the fundamental behind the idea that the ACTs are somehow incorrect, is itself NOT correct. Or, at the very least, is not the only way of looking at gender.

I'm not the "worst arguer ever". You just have no reading comprehension, or, more likely, are unwilling to use your reading comprehension skills and to allow your own assumptions to come up for question.

There's only so much I can do with that. That limitation, however, is your own...not mine.

[Vishra]

I apologize. Maybe I shouldn't have blown you off so quickly, I'll try to explain again.

MAYBE, just MAYBE, "Gender" (he or she) is NOT a direct reference to anatomy. MAYBE the connection between anatomy and gender is obscured in the way we talk about gender. Maybe that connection isn't "natural"; maybe your gender (he or she...or heaven forbid..neither) doesn't have to have anything to do with your anatomy. Maybe we fake a connection between to the two so we can claim that gendered performance is natural and essential. Maybe we're REALLY invested in making sure that these things maintain themselves, and maybe a big portion of the work that goes into that constant verification is imbedded in that connection between bodies and performance....

and maybe not.

All you have to accept is that some people, validly, believe this. That's enough to call into question the assumption that Vish's ACTS are somehow abuses.

[Artha]

...

The problem with the acts is that Vishra is a male. A male is refered to as 'he'. It does not matter if he wears a dress and wishes he was a female. He is still a he. The problem is that you are using she, and it is incorrect. Until you can do something that is not an ACT, and it says, for example, Vishra claps her hands, what you are doing is incorrect.

[Bobmuhthol]

No, Artha, you're wrong. You fail to realize that Vishra knows what she's talking about because she 'knows what gender is.'



This should clear things up:
(22:24:24) Rachel Pwnz: haha Vishra is such an idiot.
(22:24:33) xxxxx: Yes (x50).
(22:24:39) Rachel Pwnz: "Gender does not refer to anatomy. It's what you want!!"
(22:24:52) xxxxx: <---Is a girl. But just for 5 minutes.
(22:25:00) Rachel Pwnz: rofl
(22:25:08) xxxxx: Ok, all done with that now.
(22:25:13) Rachel Pwnz: Yay!!

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[gcstader]

Vishra, you're arguing the point that *gender* is subjective, which is debatable. However, game mechanics are based on *sex* not gender. If you're a male, then when using the ACT verb you should use he. It's that simple.

~Greg

[Vishra]

>Vishra, you're arguing the point that *gender* is subjective, which is debatable. However, game mechanics are based on *sex* not gender. If you're a male, then when using the ACT verb you should use he. It's that simple.

Greg is actually the first personaly to really pick up on the distinction, and I applaud them for that.

However, there's no basis to argue that ACT is about sex at the exclusion of gender.

I would argue that one could view ACT as either...or both. (assuming there's really a distinction...I would argue that "sex" is itself an elaboration of gender, but that's a whole new discussion)

As long as there is that kind of grey area, there's no foundation upon which you can argue that the ACT is an abuse. Assume Vishra's ACTs are gender and her "look" is sex (that's kind of how I look at it now). No abuse there.

Now if you personally want to use ACT to represent "sex"; that's fine, I wouldn't argue that you couldn't. I just wouldn't argue that you have to.

[Weedmage Princess]

Can I get someone to come hunt with my new character Umbutu?

She's a Paradis Halfling..well that's what it says but she's really a Troll King. You see, she's lived her life feeling that she's a troll male. So any takers? Here's a clip from earlier this evening. I got an RPA for it...tell me what you think!

act froths at the mouth and pounds at Wezas with his giant troll-clawed fist!
...and hits for 10984759874325 points of damage!
Heart driven through back.
Painful, but only for a second.
*Wezas just bit the dust!

(Umbutu froths at the mouth and pounds at Wezas with his giant troll-clawed fist!
...and hits for 10984759874325 points of damage!
Heart driven through back.
Painful, but only for a second.
*Wezas just bit the dust!)

[gcstader]

There is really no need here for long winded liberal-english-professor speeches. Your last post can be summed up in the following:

I should be able to use ACT however I want because this is how my character sees things.

The problem is that you are imposing your viewpoint on others. *SPEAKING* your viewpoint is fine (you/others can call your character a she) but, you cross the line when you use game mechanics to get across your point. The majority of players do not differintiate between gender and sex. By using the ACT verb to refer to your character as a she, you're taking other people out of character.

~Greg / Eldas

[Vishra]

>The problem is that you are imposing your viewpoint on others. *SPEAKING* your viewpoint is fine (you/others can call your character a she) but, you cross the line when you use game mechanics to get across your point. The majority of players do not differintiate between gender and sex. By using the ACT verb to refer to your character as a she, you're taking other people out of character.

Erm...

If you had read the rest of my posts...I already noted that in all actuality Vishra's RP is actually MUCH more IC than most people.

I guess I'll review this once more too:

Most people: They put "He" or "She" in their ACTs (which correlates to their "look"), forcing other characters (blind characters, characters who're quite a distance away, characters who don't know enough about that race to distinguish the genders, ec) to recognize their gender in a certain way. My character has zero room for interpretation; they are clearly being told what to believe (as if my character somehow has X-Ray vision and can see the genitalia of every character they run across). This is precisely what you have accused Vishra of doing, but it's actually what everyone else is doing.

Vishra leaves room for interpretation. You "look", you see "He". Some verbs (pre-programmed verbs) show "He". ACTs and her outfit/mannerisms speak clearly to a "She". On the whole what you get is a disjointed gender performance that allows your character to come up with their own interpretation without being specificially forced to determine a "he", a "she" or a neither in their roleplaying. In this sense, Vishra's RP is actually the most honest, the most "showing", rather than "telling" gender performance you're going to see in Gemstone.

Fancy that.

[gcstader]

I actually have read through most all of your posts but, I'm coming to the point where I can no longer bear your non-sense rambling. However:

You keep arguing the same point. So, I'll say it again. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN GENDER AND SEX. You are forcing your viewpoint on others by using ACTs to refer to your character as a she.

~Greg

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by gcstader]

[Sean]

<<If you had read the rest of my posts...I already noted that in all actuality Vishra's RP is actually MUCH more IC than most people. >>

OKAY ANOTHER PAT ON THE BACK FOR YOU!!!

Seriously have you ever read some of your posts and realized just how conceited you sound? I'm glad you know and have observed most people in gemstone all 1000+ of them in order to draw this conclusion that you can print out and mount next to your screen shots of your 7 rpas.

[Weedmage Princess]

Well she got RPAs Tijay. Therefore she must be a great RPer.

Did you know that Vif got RPAs too? We all know how outstanding of a roleplayer she is.

I'm tired of saying the same thing over. Gemstone has set parameters. Those parameters as of this time do not allow people to change between sex. If you roll up a male, as far as the system goes, your actions that require a pronoun will be used as HE. You can't just change it because you want to play a transgender. Play within the confines of the game, or play another game.

Or just quit the lame brain "no one accepts my decision and you're all prejudiced against transgenders!" cause no one cares about it and you're wrong. You're abusing the act verb, ergo, you suck at Gemstone.

To everyone else, I apologize for my Tayre moment but it was necessary.

[Sean]

<<Most people: They put "He" or "She" in their ACTs (which correlates to their "look", forcing other characters (blind characters, characters who're quite a distance away, characters who don't know enough about that race to distinguish the genders, ec) to recognize their gender in a certain way. My character has zero room for interpretation; they are clearly being told what to believe (as if my character somehow has X-Ray vision and can see the genitalia of every character they run across). This is precisely what you have accused Vishra of doing, but it's actually what everyone else is doing. >>

On the note of the topic at hand ... no we aren't doing that with the act command. If your character is blind and I do an act ...

(Tijay does a backflip and lands on his feet.)

Your character CAN'T FUCKING SEE ME DO IT. I'm not forcing your character to see or know anything. You know why? Because the act command is a communication tool between players.

[Weedmage Princess]

You know...in all the time I've known Tijay, I've never once known him to get really pissed and lose his cool. It takes a special kind to do that...a really special kind. :tool:

[Sean]

Na, I'm not pissed sorry to disapoint.

[Chadj]

Out of curiousity, should I waste the 10-20 minutes of my time reading this thing, or can I just ignore the thread completely?

[Scott]

Originally posted by Chadj
Out of curiousity, should I waste the 10-20 minutes of my time reading this thing, or can I just ignore the thread completely?

You kind find better use of your time by giving Teeoncy a call.

[Chadj]

If this thread is honestly THAT bad, it deserves to die. now.

[Pallon]

This thread contains the phrase "chicks with dicks", that's all you really need to know

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Pallon
This thread contains the phrase "chicks with dicks", that's all you really need to know

ROFL. I'm almost tempted to read it because of that one line.

[Chadj]

Lemme git this straight...

There is a guy, with a pp, that thinks hes a she, and now the player of the he that thinks hes a she, has come here to defend the way that she plays the he that thinks hes a she with a pp?

(sorry in advance. Bored to hell)

[Weedmage Princess]

No. The argument is about a player who rolled up a MALE character and abuses the ACT verb by making his male character's actions out using the pronouns SHE and HER. That's what the argument is about. Although the player will come up with a ton of extraneous theories such as discrimination and whatnot to justify their blantant abuse.

[Bobmuhthol]

Dear Vishra,

Anyone who says, "My RP is better than everyone else's" is a fucking idiot. This means you. Fucking idiot.

Always yours,
Bobmuhthol

[gcstader]

<< No. The argument is about a player who rolled up a MALE character and abuses the ACT verb by making his male character's actions out using the pronouns SHE and HER. That's what the argument is about. >>

Exactly.

~Greg

[Chadj]

<<Weedie's Post>>

Thats what I just said. Follow carefully. Assume the "There is a guy", refers to a character IG.

ps.
:heart: weedie

[Vesi]

I'm going to create a thread called 'The Sun Rises in the West' and try to see how many people tell me I'm wrong. I want it to rise in the West... so it shall. Even though science and my compass says otherwise. They are just tools for telling and guiding every other human being on this earth. They don't apply to me because I choose not to have them apply to me.

Vesi

P. S. On topic... no transgendered beings were harmed or slammed in this post.

[Vishra]

>So, I'll say it again. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT DISTINGUISH BETWEEN GENDER AND SEX. You are forcing your viewpoint on others by using ACTs to refer to your character as a she.

Poor argument. They don't have to distinguish between gender and sex. They can go with a "He" with Vish by looking at Her if they so choose. But if they distinguish, they can look at the "She" in the ACTs and her wardrobe and decide otherwise. They have full ability to interpret as they see fit. Everyone is free to do what they want, all they're being told is that this individual is murky in terms of gender intelligbility.

To force Vish to RP in a particular fashion that connects her body with her gender performance, then you're forcing me as a player to accept that "sex" and "gender" are the same thing. You're on shakily hypocritical ground with the above statement.


>I'm glad you know and have observed most people in gemstone all 1000+ of them in order to draw this conclusion that you can print out and mount next to your screen shots of your 7 rpas.

I've been playing this game at least as long as you have Tijay (longer, if I recall correctly). And frankly, it doesn't take a huge leap to assume that the vast majority of people in Gemstone are performing a correlation between the "sex" and "gender" of their characters (all I said was that almost everyone in Gemstone uses the same pronoun in their ACTs as you would see if you "look"ed at them). If you think otherwise...well, I'd love to live in your world where a significant portion of people are RPing their characters as I RP Vishra. But that world would only exist in your mind (and fair enough on that).

And I brought up the RPAs to prove that my use of ACT with Vishra was NOT an abuse (The GMs don't reward ACT abuses, at best they'll passively tolerate). The fact that you missed that tells me that you're less interested in what I'm saying and more interested in trashing my posts. And that's fine, more power to you. But it's difficult to take you seriously.

>Your character CAN'T FUCKING SEE ME DO IT. I'm not forcing your character to see or know anything. You know why? Because the act command is a communication tool between players.

Anything in ACT is considered to be IC, it is between characters. It is NOT explicitly between players. Yes, in that instance you ARE forcing my character to witness the backflip. Now, of course, the RP value of you using that ACT is far above and beyond the "mechanics" conflict it creates; so we all deal with it. No one cries "Mechanics abuse!!!" when you do that. And yet, when it comes to gender....there are 7 pages of freaked out posts.

This is, of course, no coincidence. There's something going on here that has nothing to do with mechanics.

[gcstader]

<< Poor argument. They don't have to distinguish between gender and sex. They can go with a "He" with Vish by looking at Her if they so choose. But if they distinguish, they can look at the "She" in the ACTs and her wardrobe and decide otherwise. They have full ability to interpret as they see fit. Everyone is free to do what they want, all they're being told is that this individual is murky in terms of gender intelligbility. >>

what the fuck are you talking about

[Edaarin]

Ding ding ding ding ding, the "I've-been-playing-longer-than-you" card has been played. Please collect your bags and exit to the right, you automatically forfeit the argument.

[Artha]

Poor argument.

Ha. Ha. Hahahaha.

[gcstader]

<< Anything in ACT is considered to be IC, it is between characters. It is NOT explicitly between players. Yes, in that instance you ARE forcing my character to witness the backflip. >>

If you're roleplaying a blind character like Tijay was saying then the character does not see the backflip. The *player* does, not the character.

[Vesi]

Originally posted by Vishra
This is, of course, no coincidence. There's something going on here that has nothing to do with mechanics.

Oh. my. god.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Everyone is free to do what they want>>

You're free to shut the fuck up anytime. You know you want to.

[Weedmage Princess]

Thing is Chad, when you word it like that, it takes away from the true argument. No one is interested in what the player thinks, what the character thinks, etc. The only thing that people care about is this: If your character is a male, you can't use SHE or HER to describe actions said character is doing when referring to themselves. That goes outside the parameters of the game. I put it simply like that in the hopes that Vishra's player would understand...but I doubt it'll penetrate through the insanely dense mass of skull that houses the damaged brain.

[Vishra]

Dear Vishra,

Anyone who says, "My RP is better than everyone else's" is a fucking idiot. This means you. Fucking idiot.


I hate to go to idiotic personal attacks...


It says a lot that all you can contribute so far is "UR DUMB". Try a thread a little more on your level next time? Just a suggestion kiddo.

[Bobmuhthol]

Bitch, shut the fuck up and make me a sandwich.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by gcstader
<< Poor argument. They don't have to distinguish between gender and sex. They can go with a "He" with Vish by looking at Her if they so choose. But if they distinguish, they can look at the "She" in the ACTs and her wardrobe and decide otherwise. They have full ability to interpret as they see fit. Everyone is free to do what they want, all they're being told is that this individual is murky in terms of gender intelligbility. >>

what the fuck are you talking about

Umm, if I see a dude walking around in a dress, high heels, and a feather boa, I don't need an ACT command to know the dude is "murky in terms of gender intelligbility (sic)". Honest, I don't! :rolleyes:

HarmNone figures most people are a lot smarter than you're giving them credit for

[Sean]

<<And I brought up the RPAs to prove that my use of ACT with Vishra was NOT an abuse (The GMs don't reward ACT abuses, at best they'll passively tolerate). The fact that you missed that tells me that you're less interested in what I'm saying and more interested in trashing my posts. And that's fine, more power to you. But it's difficult to take you seriously. >>

I didn't miss that point at all. I know why you brought them up but unless your the GM whose giving yourself RPA you don't know why or why not you are receiving them. To say I'm getting these RPA's because of my use of the ACT verb, I think we can both agree is incorrect. A lot of people who fail to live upto a high standard of RP find themselves littered with RPA's. I know I personally have quite a few under my belt and really I honestly have not made an honest attempt to RP, beyond staying in genre, in a long while. The reason why I bash your use of RPA's as a crutch for what I'm doing = good is because there is no known correlation between your use of the act verb and your rpa's so unless you can somehow prove, which I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you can't, that they are rewarding your use of the act verb with your RPA's it really doesn't have a point. No where in this thread have I said however that you cannot RP or that you might not deserve the rewards. I have however mocked you bringing them up for the reason above.

[Vishra]

> The only thing that people care about is this: If your character is a male, you can't use SHE or HER to describe actions said character is doing when referring to themselves

we're arguing in circles here.

You've missed EVERYTHING I've said. By the very statement "If your character is male..."; you tell me that you just don't get it. YOU think Vishra is male. But Vishra is a trans female as far as I'm concerned. And it's not up to everyone else to determine the limitations on her gender (Though it's fitting that this discussion is going on, because in real life this is *precisely* what happens...other people get to tell you how to live your gendered experience, and if you deviate from expectations or talk about your gender in a nonnormative way, they'll use personal insults or violence to get you back in line...and if that doesn't work, people get just plain furious) or to tell her how to identify; nor to tell her how she SHOULD identify.

It's just not your place. All you have to do is step back and say "I don't agree with this way of identification or these ideas on gender that you're presenting, but I respect that your opinion is just as valid as mine in this". But people have a vested interest in maintaining the gender assumptions you just laid out as unquestionable, so they can't just take a step back and do this.

Scary stuff.

I can't explain it any more clearly, I really can't.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Vishra
This is, of course, no coincidence. There's something going on here that has nothing to do with mechanics.

No shit, Sherlock! :O

HarmNone would never have thunk it

[Vishra]

>To say I'm getting these RPA's because of my use of the ACT verb, I think we can both agree is incorrect

I stated outright that I didn't think they were because of her use of ACT. Again, you weren't really reading my posts.

But if you're considered to be OOC or using mechanics abuses, you're not going to get an RPA. And to get 7 RPAs in 8 weeks for a character speaks volumes. I brought up the specific number to demonstrate that it's no coincidence. This is NOT considered to be a mechanics abuse. The GMs specifically made this clear to me through a tell once and have consistently rewarded Vish for her RP, and every single time she used "She" in ACT.

People want to talk circles around this fact, but let's face it, it's clear. So any argument that this is an abuse is rendered moot if we agree that the GMs determine what is and isn't an ACT abuse.

If we don't...okay, fair enough.

[Weedmage Princess]

You'll find a lot of the time that if you are in the same room a GM character is in while something's going, you're going to get an RPA. It doesn't matter if you said not but two words to the GM character...you were there, you get an RPA. They give them out for ANYTHING..ANYTHING. Like I said, Vif's even gotten RPAs. You think the GMs were applauding her "licking a dirty red rag" or any of the other off the wall and down right crass stuff she does? Highly unlikely.

I've brought this argument up to a lot of people (still waiting to finish the GM poll though...btw you're losing) both people who read this board, people who don't, game hosts and so on...and do you know I have not encountered ONE person who doesn't agree that you're abusing the act verb? NOT ONE PERSON. The only person I've heard attempt to come to your defense is Shalla. It's not just a matter of opinion.

[Sean]

<<But if you're considered to be OOC or using mechanics abuses, you're not going to get an RPA>>

This simply isn't true.

[Scott]

I got an RPA for nodding at some guy because he said hi...... I am a great roleplayer, bow before me.

[Artha]

Not to mention you're in fucking Vaalor. Someone roleplaying a retarded werewolf who was the son of Onar and a female Ur'Daemon would look good in comparison to most of the people there.

[Weedmage Princess]

Wow and you have your special deathrune cloak too!!! THAT SAYS U R GOD!

[Scott]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Wow and you have your special deathrune cloak too!!! THAT SAYS U R GOD!

No, I have "a silver cloak," but I think that it is a deathrune cloak, which is why you have to believe me that it is.

[Sean]

On a side note..

<<I stated outright that I didn't think they were because of her use of ACT. Again, you weren't really reading my posts. >>

This seems to be one of your favorite phrases. I am reading your posts just as I would bet most people who are responding to you are. The fact that I read your post was the reason I felt comfortable expressing your opinion for you in using the word "we" the beginning "I think" was added because you never know when someone might change their opinion. Your assumption and attempts to debunk what people are saying by saying "you aren't reading my posts." is just a step up from implying people have no reading comprehension, which is just a step up from the childish insults that you seem to disaprove of.

[Weedmage Princess]

Oh that's right. My bad.

[Vishra]

>You'll find a lot of the time that if you are in the same room a GM character is in while something's going, you're going to get an RPA. It doesn't matter if you said not but two words to the GM character...you were there, you get an RPA.

7 times in 8 weeks? Man, Vish sure has been in the right spot at the right time a lot!!

And two GM tells saying "Great job on the RP btw"

And a GM tell saying "We know about the REPORTS, don't worry about it"

>Not to mention you're in fucking Vaalor

No argument here. Vaalor is an RP hole, we all know it. I'm glad the GMs are there paying attention, something needs to be done to improve the RP quality. I'll give Khaladon credit for trying to do that the other night; it was great.

<<But if you're considered to be OOC or using mechanics abuses, you're not going to get an RPA>>

>>This simply isn't true.

1. It's very true. 2. It's even in the official RPA guidelines. In fact, if you go OOC while under an RPA, you can lose the RPA. (which is as it should be)

Like I said, Vish has a LOT more going for her RP than just her gender identity. But if she were a walking example of an abuse, they wouldn't consistently reward her RP (which includes the gender phenomenon every single time). Some GMs may disagree with how I portray her, but at least they're willing to take that step back and say "But I can see how this person makes a valid argument, even if I don't agree with it. And that's enough to make their ACT use fair".

[Bobmuhthol]

Can someone please ban Vishra?

[Vishra]

Well, one of your counter-points was actually something I had said specifically earlier (and implied quite a few times)

Another was a misrepresentation of why I brought up the RPAs (despite a backtracking later)

Sorry kiddo, it comes across as though you haven't read what I said when you repeat me and take statements out of context =(

[Weedmage Princess]

That last paragraph has got to be the most ass backwards thing I've ever seen.

Hey, what do you think of people who roll up lil halflings and say they are kobolds? Like Pattie?

[HarmNone]

For what, Bob? Vishra has done nothing for which to be banned.:rolleyes:

HarmNone

[Weedmage Princess]

Okay I can't believe BOB of all people is calling for a ban.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Vishra
You've missed EVERYTHING I've said. By the very statement "If your character is male..."; you tell me that you just don't get it. YOU think Vishra is male. But Vishra is a trans female as far as I'm concerned. And it's not up to everyone else to determine the limitations on her gender (Though it's fitting that this discussion is going on, because in real life this is *precisely* what happens...other people get to tell you how to live your gendered experience, and if you deviate from expectations or talk about your gender in a nonnormative way, they'll use personal insults or violence to get you back in line...and if that doesn't work, people get just plain furious) or to tell her how to identify; nor to tell her how she SHOULD identify.

It's just not your place. All you have to do is step back and say "I don't agree with this way of identification or these ideas on gender that you're presenting, but I respect that your opinion is just as valid as mine in this". But people have a vested interest in maintaining the gender assumptions you just laid out as unquestionable, so they can't just take a step back and do this.

No offense, but you're a baffoon.

You still, to this moment, still think this argument is about people not accepting your choice of roleplaying? You must since you bring up this comment about this is how real life is where people dictate to you how to live your life and get hostile about it. The part I bolded is really balsy of you to say. Vishra is DEFINITELY a guy stating something that. :smug:

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SEXUAL CONNOTATION, GENDER, OR SEXUAL PREFERENCES! IT HAS TO DO WITH THE ACT COMMAND!

To quote Vesi so eloquently said, "Oh. My. God."

If I was in a REAL LIFE discussion with Vishra, and she and I were very good friends, and I asked, "Okay, I know you're female, but you're really a male, right?". Vishra replies, "I'm all woman." Then I ask, "Does that mean you have a vagina?" Vishra best say no and add her howevers about how she feels and believes she's female. If she says yes, then she's a liar.

That is how I categorize using SHE when it should be HE. You're basically lying to the players, trying to confuse them. Yes, we KNOW that you're supposed to be in a female body but trapped in the physical body of a male thus to Vishra she's a woman. However mechanically you're still in a male body, like it not. You, the PLAYER, need to accept that fact, ergo when you, the PLAYER, do an ACT, you are telling others, as the PLAYER, what is going on. ACTs are for the courtesy of the PLAYERS with something that the character is doing. It's PLAYER knowledge. Using SHE is a big fat lie to the other players.

(Karystal thinks Vishra is a guy because she can see his package from the other side of the room.)

Does it not seem a tad odd that all these people are arguing the same point against just one person? Are you bold enough to say that all these people are wrong and you are the sole correct person here? Who is really the one not listening to any points other than their own?

By the way, you have crushed your argument with the "I have been playing for so long blah blah blah" statement. It is all moot now. All these years and you STILL can't figure out the mechanics of Gemstone. Gee maybe this game isn't for you, eh? One of those fabulous free-form games would fit you best.

[Sean]

<<Some GMs may disagree with how I portray her, but at least they're willing to take that step back and say "But I can see how this person makes a valid argument, even if I don't agree with it. And that's enough to make their ACT use fair".>>

Doesn't this really only hold true if you know how valid the counter reports are? For all we know the alleged "many" reports about your use of the ACT verb might just read "OMFG VISHRA USED SHE AND IS A HE." Making a counter point to that isn't really difficult.

But really to me that doesn't matter. I'm not doubting you can RP, and if you deserve your RPA's great good for you. Do I think you are being OOC? No, because I'll still argue that the ACT verb is an OOC tool for players to determine how their characters should react IC, but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Do I think your in some major game threatening way abusing mechanics? Not really. You don't really gain anything in terms of mechanical advantage through what your doing. But I still argue that what you are doing is wrong and on some small scale is abusing the mechnics to twist the game to what you want it to be rather than what it is.

[Weedmage Princess]

Next time someone sees Vishra they should use the act verb to reach up her skirt and grab her jewels..then pull up the skirt for others to see. I mean hey we can use the act verb however we cant according to her, right?

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Okay I can't believe BOB of all people is calling for a ban.

Heh. I got a bit of a giggle out of that, myself, Weedie. :lol:

HarmNone is still chuckling

[HarmNone]

>> But I still argue that what you are doing is wrong and on some small scale is abusing the mechnics to twist the game to what you want it to be rather than what it is. <<

That REALLY bore repeating!

HarmNone agrees wholeheartedly

[Vishra]

>Doesn't this really only hold true if you know how valid the counter reports are? For all we know the alleged "many" reports about your use of the ACT verb might just read "OMFG VISHRA USED SHE AND IS A HE." Making a counter point to that isn't really difficult.

Presentation counts, but not that much. The issue is the same.


>No offense, but you're a baffoon.
>By the way, you have crushed your argument with the "I have been playing for so long blah blah blah" statement.

Wait...but starting an argument with "you're a baffoon" makes it credible?

And Tijay was pointing out that there's no way I could have interacted with enough people to make my statement and to understand how things work in Gemstone, which carries an implicity assumption that somehow he had interacted with enough to know better. I responded by pointing out that I've got at least as much background in character interactions in GS as he does. Too nuanced?


>You still, to this moment, still think this argument is about people not accepting your choice of roleplaying? You must since you bring up this comment about this is how real life is where people dictate to you how to live your life and get hostile about it. The part I bolded is really balsy of you to say. Vishra is DEFINITELY a guy stating something that.

Like I said before...this is ONLY an ACT abuse if you hold on to specific notions of what gender is and how it works. If you believe gender is what many of us believe it is, there is ZERO abuse. So, yes, I do believe this ultimately comes down to people trying to enforce a particular idea of what gender is and being freaked out that someone would create a character whose actions and RP call that into question.

And all I ever argued was that there's a whole different, and very valid, way of looking at gender. And all people have to do is back off for a moment and realize that they don't have a monopoly on gender discourse.

>Does it not seem a tad odd that all these people are arguing the same point against just one person? Are you bold enough to say that all these people are wrong and you are the sole correct person here? Who is really the one not listening to any points other than their own?


Nope, doesn't seem odd at all. There are lots of things historically that the vast majority of people have believed...only to have that commonly held opinion disrupted and changed later. This is the nature of things. Most people don't spend a lot of time really thinking critically about gender. Most people haven't had the combination of luxury and interest. What does this mean? It means that people aren't idiots for holding on to some really archaic ideas of how gender works. It also means that the people who think differently after engaging with the subject critically for years aren't idiots for disagreeing.

[Artha]

Nope, doesn't seem odd at all. There are lots of things historically that the vast majority of people have believed...only to have that commonly held opinion disrupted and changed later.

You're like GemStone's Galileo!!!1

[Vishra]

>Next time someone sees Vishra they should use the act verb to reach up her skirt and grab her jewels..then pull up the skirt for others to see. I mean hey we can use the act verb however we cant according to her, right?

Sexual harrassment is a brilliant way to keep people "in their place". It's worked wonders against women for centuries, why not use it again?

[Sean]

<<And Tijay was pointing out that there's no way I could have interacted with enough people to make my statement and to understand how things work in Gemstone, which carries an implicity assumption that somehow he had interacted with enough to know better. I responded by pointing out that I've got at least as much background in character interactions in GS as he does. Too nuanced? >>

The main difference is I don't make generalizations about the player base. Especially not ones that involve my relation to "most" of the player base. Given that people come and go, new people do the same. I don't think I will ever have an accurage guage of most of the characters in the game to feel I have an educated opinion of where I stand in relation to 99.9% of the playing population.

[Vishra]

>You're like GemStone's Galileo!!!1

Except I didn't think any of this stuff up on my own. It's the result of years of reading other peoples' research.

It's interesting that most people don't really engage with the actual arguments, they just pull out a personal attack as some kind of counter-point. "You're conceited! HA! You're wrong!"

Props to the people who can rise above the kindergarden level and make an actual point. This is supposed to be a discussion of an issue, not some cut-down fest.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Vishra
Like I said before...this is ONLY an ACT abuse if you hold on to specific notions of what gender is and how it works. If you believe gender is what many of us believe it is, there is ZERO abuse. So, yes, I do believe this ultimately comes down to people trying to enforce a particular idea of what gender is and being freaked out that someone would create a character whose actions and RP call that into question.


This paragraph right here is why people are frustrated with discussing this issue with you because you insist on making this a homophobic or roleplaying issue when it's about the use of the ACT.

Let me use small words.

We. Don't. Care. What. You. Play.

Do you feel that people should be able to roleplay that they are indeed kobolds and portray this with the ACT verb?

[Weedmage Princess]

>>Like I said before...this is ONLY an ACT abuse if you hold on to specific notions of what gender is and how it works. If you believe gender is what many of us believe it is, there is ZERO abuse.<<

WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's ACT ABUSE BECAUSE SIMUTRONICS (and you by choosing to select MALE as the sex for your character when you created him) HAS ALREADY DETERMINED VISHRA TO BE A "HE" WITH PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES THAT IDENTIFY HIM AS A MALE. ATTRIBUTES THAT ARE OBVIOUS TO EVERY AND ANY CHARACTER WHO LOOKS AT VISHRA BECAUSE WHEN ANYONE LOOKS AT VISHRA THEY SEE ********HE AND HIS********** THEREFORE IT'S A SET PRESCIENDENT.

FOR THE TRILLIONTH TIME ALREADY YOU CANT FRIGGIN USE THE GODDAMN ACT VERB TO CONTRADICT SOMETHING ALREADY SET AND ESTABLISHED AND NOT SAY IT'S ABUSE BECAUSE IT IS. DO YOU GET IT? DO YOU GET IT NOW? HELLO IS ANYONE HOME?!?!?!?!

[Vishra]

>The main difference is I don't make generalizations about the player base. Especially not ones that involve my relation to "most" of the player base. Given that people come and go, new people do the same. I don't think I will ever have an accurage guage of most of the characters in the game to feel I have an educated opinion of where I stand in relation to 99.9% of the playing population

Um, is it really that big of a leap for me to say that 99.9% of players in Gemstone use the same pronoun in ACT as you would see when you "looK" at their character? That's all I said. That doesn't make me arrogant; it's a pretty obvious fact.

But you're more than welcome to argue against it! Wouldn't mind being wrong on that point at all...

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Vishra
Um, is it really that big of a leap for me to say that 99.9% of players in Gemstone use the same pronoun in ACT as you would see when you "looK" at their character? That's all I said. That doesn't make me arrogant; it's a pretty obvious fact.

Well yes, I would wager that they do because.. OMG.. they follow the rules of the ACT command (at least).

Oh and I apologize for the baffoon comment. Considering you insulted me first by saying that I'm uncomfortable with someone playing a transgender, seeing as how I'm BISEXUAL, I felt that an insult was deserved. I'm sorry. I should know better than to sink to someone else's level.

[Edited on 7/6/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Vesi]

Why did you never address my hairbrush example? I made it easy by using an inanimate object so we wouldn't be subjected to ten paragraphs on your views on gender.

Just answer if the use of the act verb in my hairbrush example was right or wrong. Simple yes or no.

Vesi

Here is the example in case you missed it kiddo:

Vishra has a blue hairbrush. Alas, Vishra wants everyone to believe that it's a red hairbrush because it really should have been red to start with. So...

Vishra waves the blue hairbrush through the air.

(Vishra waves the red hairbrush through the air.)

Now... does Vishra have a blue hairbrush or a red one? Well, gosh darn, Vishra has a blue one. And no amount of using ACT is going to change that fact.

Edited to add the example and to fix some phrasing.



[Edited on 7-6-2004 by Vesi]

[Edited on 7-6-2004 by Vesi]

[Vishra]

And this is the point that's frustrating the hell out of me too. ;)

how many more times do I have to type out the exact point?

My vision of gender (and I'm not alone in this; this is commonly accepted by those who study it): There are bodies (which we gender as male or female), and then performances (gender identification: the very action of saying "I am a woman" or "I am a male"). They are two separate things. They don't have to correlate. One can have a male body and a female gender. Now, this will confuse most people because most people don't realize that there is a disconnect between the two, and when they witness the disconnect they explain it away in a way that allows them to keep thinking that there is no difference between gender and body (Oh, they're just confused. They're a "Baffoon", etc)


One is ONLY male because one ACTS male (this can range from clothing, to tone and word choice, to walking style, etc), without that performance there is no gender.

Transgendered identity is DEFINED by a juxtaposition between "He" and "She" in one body. It IS that confusion. It is a performance that highlights the disconnect between gender performance and gendered bodies, which we usually just don't notice.

Okay, given this....swapping between "He" and "She" and using a pronoun in ACT that isn't in the "look" IS NOT an abuse. It's *exactly* how I see gender as working. So that's EXACTLY how I RP Vish. *IF* you look at gender this way, then all Vishra is doing in Gemstone is what everyone else is doing (performing a gender that does not have to directly reference a body type...even though for most people it tends to)


How most people look at gender: Gender is equivalent to gendered body. You can't have a disconnect between the two. They are one and the same. To create a character with this disconnect is an ACT abuse because it's twisting gender into something that it just isn't.


Does that make more sense? The very notion that it's an abuse requires you to believe certain things about how gender works. It requires you to believe that people are born a particular gender, and that this biological "gender" is unchangable or at least more "real" in some sense. Underlying the idea that there is an abuse here is a particular way of looking at the world, and so using the "mechanics" argument ends up just being a way to make those assumptions enforceable, to fix this gender "wrong" that people see, without actually saying or thinking "I just don't want this kind of character out there"

That's what I've been trying to point out this entire time. That there's a completely different way of looking at gender that renders Vish's RP, not as an ACT abuse, but as just the way the world, and consequently Gemstone, works.

[Vishra]

>Oh and I apologize for the baffoon comment. Considering you insulted me first by saying that I'm uncomfortable with someone playing a transgender, seeing as how I'm BISEXUAL, I felt that an insult was deserved. I'm sorry. I should know better than to sink to someone else's level.

Being queer in a sexuality sense doesn't mean that you're enlightened about gender (or even sexuality). The queer community has been TERRIBLE to trans people, and, especially among queer men, the notions of gender are antiquated and oppressive at times.

[Stunseed]

Is the motherfucking brush blue or not?

You lose. Vesi wins.

Thread, please die in a theathrical yet horrible death < non-leathally >. If you could do that, that'd be great. :tumble:

[Weedmage Princess]

Your theory is fine and dandy however Simutronics does NOT support such a thing, hence...you're playing OUT of the PARAMETERS of the game.

All of that stuff doesn't matter because ALL we're talking about is the mechanics end of it. Nothing else. You can't be a HE one minute then a SHE the next. You can only be one..or the other...for Gameplay purposes, that is. Yes we realize that a person may look one way on the outside and be something completely different once you get them naked, however Gemstone..the game..doesn't go that deep...and every time you use SHE AND HER via the act verb in referrence to Vishra, you're doing that...jumping back and forth. You can't have Vishra "fluff out her skirt" then turn around and have Vishra "wave his broadsword in the air." To do that in the game is --again--contradicting a set presciendent, and that by Gemstone standards...is abuse.

This really doesn't have anything to do with what others think gender is, who's accepting of what...it simply has to do with you not playing within the parameters of the game.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Vishra
>Oh and I apologize for the baffoon comment. Considering you insulted me first by saying that I'm uncomfortable with someone playing a transgender, seeing as how I'm BISEXUAL, I felt that an insult was deserved. I'm sorry. I should know better than to sink to someone else's level.

Being queer in a sexuality sense doesn't mean that you're enlightened about gender (or even sexuality). The queer community has been TERRIBLE to trans people, and, especially among queer men, the notions of gender are antiquated and oppressive at times.

Umm, excuse me, but where in the quote included in this post do you read anything about being queer? I feel I am relatively literate, and I see nothing whatsoever in that paragraph that mentions, or alludes to, queers.

HarmNone, wondering again

[Vishra]

>Now... does Vishra have a blue hairbrush or a red one? Well, gosh darn, Vishra has a blue one. And no amount of using ACT is going to change that fact.

Here's the difference:

The hairbrush is blue just by sitting there. It's an objective fact. The color pre-exists anything that the brush does or that is done to the brush.

But gender is something you do; it doesn't pre-exist action (your body may pre-exist actions [though even that can be argued in many cases], but body doesn't equate to gender). You are male by virture of performing the male gender. The act of saying "I am male" (and being told you are male, of course) is a part of what makes you male. The act of saying "I am female" (or being told you are female) is part of what makes you female. And the act of saying "I am female" when everyone is interpreting your body as male is *precisely* what makes you transgendered.'

That's where all of the disagreement on the ACT situation comes from. I see Vish's gender as partially created by and through the use of "She" in ACTs. So she's not changing some immutable fact, she's making her gender (and I believe every character in Gemstone does it; but it's a process that most of us are so used to that it begins to look natural).

Other people believe that there's a gender that pre-exists actions, so flipping things using ACT is a mechanics abuse since it's a flat-out lie.

Believe either one. Believe neither. But leave room for people to have their opinions. That's all I've argued the entire time, and it seems to be far too much for a lot of people.

[gcstader]

<< Do you feel that people should be able to roleplay that they are indeed kobolds and portray this with the ACT verb? >>

(from crystal tears post)

I'd really like to hear how you feel about this vishra

[gcstader]

<< But gender is something you do; it doesn't pre-exist action >>

gender- n. The condition of being female or male; sex.

[Vishra]

>You can't be a HE one minute then a SHE the next. You can only be one..or the other...for Gameplay purposes, that is

It wasn't written into the code, you're right. And that's the major reason why I rolled Vishra up; to point out all the ways in which gender normativity is strongly "encouraged" (enforced)

But that's a far cry from saying that it's banned somehow from Gemstone. If this were the case, Vish would've been in the consultation lounge by now.

As long as the game allows a male body to wear female accessories, transgendered characters are supported. One doesn't have to choose between one or the other (male or female). It's not the game that's enforcing this choice right now...it's the players.

[Weedmage Princess]

>>But gender is something you do; it doesn't pre-exist action (your body may pre-exist actions [though even that can be argued in many cases], but body doesn't equate to gender). You are male by virture of performing the male gender<<

No, not in Gemstone you aren't. You are what you select coming out of the mangler. Once you do it, that's it. This is a game...with boundaries that you need to play in. Not like RL where you can cross said boundaries as you wish if you choose. That's what you don't get.

[HarmNone]

Okay. I'm going to say this once. I DO NOT believe that gender is an immutable fact. On the contrary. However, I DO believe that, in GemStoneIV, the gender of characters is built-in. It is possible to play a transgendered character, yes. However, to do so well, the player must be skilled enough to do so while remaining within the boundaries set by the game. If there is an insult perceived to be implicit within that statement, so be it.

HarmNone

[Bobmuhthol]

<<As long as the game allows a male body to wear female accessories, transgendered characters are supported.>>

Great! But Vishra is still a guy, and you still haven't made me a sandwich.

[Vishra]

<< Do you feel that people should be able to roleplay that they are indeed kobolds and portray this with the ACT verb? >>

One of the best RPers I ever met RPs that she's actually a Jackal. And the GMs have even given her Jackal-like features (via feature merchants or RP stuff I'm not sure).

So, no, I have no problem with this.

But that doesn't mean I think it's analogous. Gender and species are two different things. Performativity doesn't apply very well to species; it mostly applies to gender and sexuality.

[Vishra]

>No, not in Gemstone you aren't. You are what you select coming out of the mangler. Once you do it, that's it. This is a game...with boundaries that you need to play in. Not like RL where you can cross said boundaries as you wish if you choose. That's what you don't get.

That's an assumption. I look at your choice in the mangler as choosing a gendered body, not a gender performance. The performance is ALWAYS up to the player to do. Which is why we have so many different gender performances amongst only two body options.

So many of these "You just don't get it" statements have some implicit assumptions built into them that are necessary for them to be true.

[Weedmage Princess]

Which is exactly why you're playing outside the confines of the game. You have to pick one and go with it. To do otherwise IS mechanics abuse.

Again, this is speaking SOLELY on the mechanics of the game. You CAN'T switch back and forth like that. It's mechanical abuse of the VERB. There is no justification for it. If you wanted "she" so bad in your actions, you should have rolled Vishra female and gone from there with your roleplaying--you know, that she was born male, etc.

[Vishra]

>However, to do so well, the player must be skilled enough to do so while remaining within the boundaries set by the game

I happen to think I'm very skilled with it. Not only does everyone automatically know that Vishra is trans, but most of the town refers to her as a "she".

I don't think there's another way of RPing her that would be more, or even equally, effective.

Even if I said it was an ACT abuse (and I am most certainly not), I STILL think it's far more important to have a very well RP'd character than to worry about tiny mechanics abuses (again, I don't actually think it's a mechanics abuse).

[Weedmage Princess]

::stare:: Yes and using the ACT verb to DESCRIBE how your character "performs" is one thing. To have Vishra use the act verb to "act feminine", to give the illusion that she is female...is one thing...that's RP. To use the ACT verb to SAY she ...the physical character...is physically FEMALE when you look at the character and see HE is not RP. It's ABUSE.

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Again, this is speaking SOLELY on the mechanics of the game. You CAN'T switch back and forth like that. It's mechanical abuse of the VERB. There is no justification for it. If you wanted "she" so bad in your actions, you should have rolled Vishra female and gone from there with your roleplaying--you know, that she was born male, etc.

It doesn't matter because if Vishra had been rolled into a female, Vishra would have done ACTs with "he" in it, because the sole purpose is to show that the character is playing both, a physical male body with a female mind and soul.

It's jarring to other players, that's all I'm going to say right now. The game wasn't designed to play any gender you want at any given time, just as it wasn't designed to let you play a kobold, a toddler, a muskrat, or a living fungus. It's all one in the same. What you rolled into is what you ARE and how you roleplay from there is up to you but underneath it all, Vishra is still a male.

Basically you're saying that the other transgender characters that are in the game are playing wrong all because they aren't using the opposite pronoun? Because I've seen them, and they maintain the correct pronoun for their ACTs, however their verbage, their attire, their way of being is of the opposite sex. They are very convincing and they've done it without needing to abuse the rules of the game.

[Edited on 7/6/2004 by CrystalTears]

[HarmNone]

>>It wasn't written into the code, you're right. And that's the major reason why I rolled Vishra up; to point out all the ways in which gender normativity is strongly "encouraged" (enforced)<<

Ahhh. So the purpose of Vishra, and all this hooplah, is to educate we poor huddling masses in the finer points of human gender theory, eh? Well, stiffen your spine, darlin'....there's a clue comin'.........Elanthia ain't earth. There ain't no gender theory in Elanthia. There's elves, and orcs, and hobbits (OH, MY!), but there ain't no gender theory anywhere to be found.

In short, is an online roleplaying game the very best platform you could find for proselytizing your favored theory of gender in 21st century living?

HarmNone thinks she might have found the cockroach in these potatoes