Sheriff Arpaio Announces Results Birth Certificate Investigation

[ClydeR]

After a six month investigation, Arpaio says Obama's birth certificate and selective service card are forgeries! And he has a lead on the forgery but is not ready to announce what the lead is.


PHOENIX - Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio says there are indications of fraud regarding President Barack Obama's birth certificate and selective service card.

Arpaio said at a 1 p.m. news conference that there is "probable cause to believe forgery and fraud occurred."

Arpaio scheduled the news conference Thursday to unveil preliminary results of an investigation, conducted by members of his volunteer cold-case posse, into the authenticity of President Barack Obama's birth certificate, a controversy that has been widely debunked but which remains alive in the eyes of some conservatives.

Mike Zullo, lead investigator with the department's cold case posse presented detailed evidence backing up the sheriff's claim.

"We do not have a single document that proves Mr. Obama's birth in Hawaii or anywhere in the United States for that matter," Zullo said. "The document is fake, the representation is fake.

"We believe this should be a full blown investigation," Zullo said.

Authorities have an investigative lead into the forgery, he said, but would not elaborate.

More... (http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_phoenix_metro/central_phoenix/arpaio-investigates-obamas-birth-certificate)

Republican candidates heavily courted Arpaio's endorsement prior to the Arizona primary, and Arpaio was prominently seated and mentioned in the recent Mesa debate.


The Obama campaign is making money off of it by selling a mug for $22.50 with his alleged birth certificate printed on it.



http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/rmi08a/birthcertificatemug.jpg
STORE.BARACKOBAMA.COM (http://store.barackobama.com/made-in-the-usa-mug.html)

[4a6c1]

If it was this

http://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/KDssc.jpg

it would be better.

[ClydeR]

More law enforcement agencies should start calling themselves a "posse."

[4a6c1]

Of course!

[Liagala]

More law enforcement agencies should start calling themselves a "posse."
Wow. Clyder actually said something I can completely agree with.

[ClydeR]

I'm conflicted about whether or not I should buy one of those mugs. On the one hand, buying a mug would be sort of like contributing to Obama's campaign -- something that a true blue conservative like me would never do. But on the other hand, if Arpaio ends up proving that Obama's birth certificate is forged, making Obama ineligible to run, then an official mug will be a collector item worth about a thousand times the cost. Or more.

[Latrinsorm]

I heard the President talking on the internet today about basketball, and he sounded pretty doggone American to me. If some high-falutin' big city sheriff can't get behind basketball, well, I just don't cotton to that.

[4a6c1]

I heard the President talking on the internet today about basketball, and he sounded pretty doggone American to me. If some high-falutin' big city sheriff can't get behind basketball, well, I just don't cotton to that.

Those sumbeaches. 'Ar president, he's patriot! Sure as light of day.

signed

idunnobutivebeentold

[Jarvan]

I'm conflicted about whether or not I should buy one of those mugs. On the one hand, buying a mug would be sort of like contributing to Obama's campaign -- something that a true blue conservative like me would never do. But on the other hand, if Arpaio ends up proving that Obama's birth certificate is forged, making Obama ineligible to run, then an official mug will be a collector item worth about a thousand times the cost. Or more.

At this point, tests could prove that Obama is a Lizard man from a Planet 10,000 Light Years away, and it wouldn't Matter.

EVEN if he wasn't born on US soil, or to a Single US parent and IT COULD be proved, it would not be believed by anyone that matters, otherwise it would prove that our election system was hijacked, and invalidate everything he signed these last 3 years... the GOOD and the BAD.

It would also make us a laughing stock.

[4a6c1]

Jarvan's a birther?

[Archigeek]

Sounds like Dennis Hastert: "George Soros may have gotten his money from drugs, we just don't know where it all came from..."

Stick with trying to put the onus on proving a negative and you're golden!

[Jarvan]

Jarvan's a birther?

If you mean do I personally think he was Birthed in the US, then yes. if you mean am I one of those batshit crazy people that think he was Kenyan born and stole the election, then No.

I never understood why people would even think he could have fooled the system somehow. If the FBI and CIA couldn't determine he wasn't born in the US, then Sheriff Arpaio certainly won't.

That being said, I do think he is in a sense a Manchurian Candidate. A Candidate for Senate makes a speech at the DNC convention in 2004, in 2007 (2 years on the Job) He basically quits the Senate in all but name to run for President as a nobody, Beats out one of the Most liked, respected, and politically savy women in the world...

[Parkbandit]

If you mean do I personally think he was Birthed in the US, then yes. if you mean am I one of those batshit crazy people that think he was Kenyan born and stole the election, then No.

I never understood why people would even think he could have fooled the system somehow. If the FBI and CIA couldn't determine he wasn't born in the US, then Sheriff Arpaio certainly won't.

That being said, I do think he is in a sense a Manchurian Candidate. A Candidate for Senate makes a speech at the DNC convention in 2004, in 2007 (2 years on the Job) He basically quits the Senate in all but name to run for President as a nobody, Beats out one of the Most liked, respected, and politically savy women in the world...

In 2008, Hillary Clinton was not "one of the most like, respected" anything. She's liked and respected now, because some people look at Obama and regret their vote.

[Jarvan]

In 2008, Hillary Clinton was not "one of the most like, respected" anything. She's liked and respected now, because some people look at Obama and regret their vote.

Compared to B.O. she was. And to some people she was, not me personally, but some people.

hehe.. B.O.

New bumper sticker..

"No one likes B.O."

[Atlanteax]

I agree that a good portion of the Republican base would prefer Hillary was President instead of Obama.

[ClydeR]

In 2008, Hillary Clinton was not "one of the most like, respected" anything.

She was way ahead of where Romney is now.



http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/rmi08a/romney--fav-unfav.png
realclearpolitics.com (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/romney_favorableunfavorable-1134.html)




http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo166/rmi08a/hillaryclinton--fav-unfav.png
wikipedia.org (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Rodham_Clinton#First_term)

I wish I could find a chart combining the Obama and Clinton favorable/unfavorable numbers from 2008 with the Republican candidates' numbers from 2012.

If we are unlucky enough to have Romney as the nominee, then his job will be to turn those numbers around over the summer and simultaneously tear down Obama's favorable numbers. Barring an unforseen event, the only way Romney can beat Obama is with the help of a colossal negative advertising campaign from the Romney Death Star (http://www.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeedpolitics/romneys-death-star-on-massive-ad-buying-spr). Can Obama repel firepower of that magnitude?

[Androidpk]

Jarvan's a birther?

Those wide-set hips aren't for show, lady!

[BriarFox]

I need to buy one of those mugs.

[ClydeR]

Obama is in trouble now. Arpaio is getting help from Russia's Pravda..


A long awaited press conference was given by Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio, a five time elected Sheriff, which should have made national and international headlines. Arpaio's credentials include serving in the United States Army from 1950 to 1953, service as a federal narcotics agent serving in countries all over the world with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA), and served as the head of the Arizona DEA. Without doubt, this is a serious Law Enforcement Officer, not one to be taken in by tin-foil-hat wearing loons.

Yet, in the five days since his revelations there has been little in the way of serious reporting on the findings he presented in his presser. With 6 short videos, the Sheriff and his team presented a devastating case, one the tame US press is apparently unable to report.

More... (http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/07-03-2012/120708-arizona_sheriff_obama-0/)

[Atlanteax]

Something Sheriff Arpaio is doing that I can definitely agree with: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/24/joe-arpaio-tent-city-protests_n_1622466.html?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl15|sec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D172834


PHOENIX -- Several thousand critics of Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio gathered outside "Tent City" Saturday night for a rally calling for the closure of the sheriff's complex of canvas jail tents.

Organizers say conditions at "Tent City" complex are inhumane. The sheriff has said he doesn't see any problems with housing inmates in tents and often points out that some members of the U.S. military live in tents.

"We are with you," protesters chanted in both English and Spanish, in hopes that inmates could hear them.

... @ the hippies


Arpaio is a national political fixture who built his reputation on jailing inmates in tents during Phoenix's triple-digit summer heat, dressing inmates in pink underwear, selling himself to voters as unceasingly tough on crime and pushing the bounds of how far local police can go to confront illegal immigration.

I dare say if more jails followed the bolded example, we may see jail-time as being a far more effective deterrent than it currently is.

[Reliel]

I like Arpaio. He treats criminals like goddamn criminals.

[Latrinsorm]

I wonder if Sheriff Arpaio has ever read about Commissioner Connor, specifically how the brutality of his tactics served to rally the majority against him. I wonder if he has ever read the Constitution.

[Reliel]

I wonder if he has ever read the Constitution.

Criminals have no rights.

[Reliel]

Why do you hate America?

The bleeding hearts make it so easy!

[Latrinsorm]

Criminals have no rights.How peculiar, then, that they are specifically granted them in the eighth amendment, eh?

Look, people have tried the brutality thing a million times before, and every time it turned out they were being assholes. Draco prescribed the death penalty for minor offenses, and wouldn't you know it, within 100 years Athens had to completely re-write their laws, and to this day we deride Draco's name. It doesn't make you a tough guy to push around people who can't fight back. It makes you a bully, and a bully's power never lasts.

Pick any vicious, totalitarian regime you like, there was still crime there. The British don't even have a death penalty, and their murder rate per capita is indistinguishable from China's.

Tell me how it's going to work this time, seriously!

[Reliel]

POST

Tent town is neither cruel nor unusual. It is prison. A facility meant to house the guilty party (found guilty by trial or admission).

Death penalty? Nobody said anything about the death penalty but I will say that the moment you give a man the death penalty, you accomplish nothing.

Sheriff Arpaio is a bully, I will admit to that. But you have to remember, you throw a soft, squishy, lenient man into a prison management system, you'll watch a man get trampled on by convicts. (Face it, throwing feather pillows and roses at a man who was convicted of beating his wife to death with his bare hands isn't going to get you far.) These are criminals. They need to have someone who isn't going to deal with their shit in their face. Being as much of an asshole as he can and wants. Watch the inmates of a normal prison and the inmates of Tent Town. I believe they give you a tour if you ask.

I'm not talking about death penalties.

Do you warp conversations to prove a point or did I miss something? Tell me, seriously!

[Gelston]

I don't see the tent city as being cruel or unusual, myself, so I don't see the big deal here.

[AnticorRifling]

Prisoners should never have better living conditions than our fighting forces.

[Atlanteax]

Prisoners should never have better living conditions than our fighting forces.

Nevermind that it would seem that convicts broadly experience better living conditions than the working poor (food, housing, healthcare, etc).

[Atlanteax]

I'm not talking about death penalties.

Do you warp conversations to prove a point or did I miss something? Tell me, seriously!

Unfortunately, Latrinsorm. BriarFox, and Warriorbird do this all the time, so it is a matter of learning to disregard such responses.

[Gelston]

Well, being confined in itself is a hell of a thing too. I bet almost anyone in one of those luxury prisons would trade it all to be back out on the streets again, even if they are poor, starving hobos. I think that is the worst part about being in jail, and the point I guess.

[Kembal]

I don't see the tent city as being cruel or unusual, myself, so I don't see the big deal here.

Until someone dies from the conditions there (or Arpaio gets thrown into jail himself for filing bogus charges against his political enemies), the tent city isn't going away.

But the day a death happens due to the heat or anything related to the conditions, the dead person's relatives are going to file a multi-million dollar lawsuit. And Maricopa County may regret having a tent city prison.

[Tgo01]

Prisoners aren't getting AC?! What the fuck is this world coming to?

[Reliel]

Well, being confined in itself is a hell of a thing too. I bet almost anyone in one of those luxury prisons would trade it all to be back out on the streets again, even if they are poor, starving hobos. I think that is the worst part about being in jail, and the point I guess.
Solitary confinement has some serious issues. The floor is worn away in some rooms because the prisoners pace endlessly.

Screw that.

[Latrinsorm]

Tent town is neither cruel nor unusual. It is prison. A facility meant to house the guilty party (found guilty by trial or admission).Is anybody else in America using tents to house inmates? That makes it unusual. Is being in a tent in 100º+ desert weather cruel? I would ask the Sheriff to bunk down in such a tent (removed from the inmates, obviously). If he refuses, I would sarcastically shake my head and say "I rest my case!"
Sheriff Arpaio is a bully, I will admit to that. But you have to remember, you throw a soft, squishy, lenient man into a prison management system, you'll watch a man get trampled on by convicts. (Face it, throwing feather pillows and roses at a man who was convicted of beating his wife to death with his bare hands isn't going to get you far.) These are criminals. They need to have someone who isn't going to deal with their shit in their face. Being as much of an asshole as he can and wants. Watch the inmates of a normal prison and the inmates of Tent Town. I believe they give you a tour if you ask.You will not hear me make the argument that the mainstream American prison system is AOK and working great. Asterisk*
Death penalty? Nobody said anything about the death penalty but I will say that the moment you give a man the death penalty, you accomplish nothing.

I'm not talking about death penalties.Nobody said anything about the death penalty, but Atlanteax said something about deterrence. You can't get a heck of a lot bigger deterrent than death. If we have no reason to believe that that punishment works, why would we believe this comparatively mild cruelty works?

Frankly, I am disappointed that you would resort so quickly to such frivolous allegations. Asterisk*: did you notice how I didn't mention warping the conversation, taking what I said out of context, etc.? I merely pointed out that what I am about was not accurately reflected by what you said. I hope this example helps you to do better in the future. :)
Prisoners should never have better living conditions than our fighting forces.Isn't this just rhetoric, though? We're not going to have prisoners shot at, bombed, tear gassed, etc.

[Reliel]

POST
You have got to be warped in thinking that criminals should get a fair chance at anything. They made their mistake and should be grateful that someone had the common courtesy to acknowledge them with food, water, shelter, and the chance to keep on living.

The conditions may not be what your average prison gives (AC, TV, and what have you) but by God it's a means to make someone say "I did what I did and this is what I deserve". Now then, I'm done discussing the topic.

I need to wash your smug idiocy off.

[Latrinsorm]

If it is warped to think humans should be treated humanely, then yes, I am warped.

[Tgo01]

Let's not start this "the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent therefore we should abolish it!" nonsense.

[Tgo01]

If it is warped to think humans should be treated humanely, then yes, I am warped.

I agree even scum prisoners should be treated humanely. I just don't think it's inhumane to say "Sorry, no AC. AND AND AND! No cable TV!"

Shit that's something you punish your kid with for taking the car without permission.

[Reliel]

I can only hope that you realize the type of person you're attempting to sympathize and pity. Because I doubt they'd do the same if you had something they wanted.


Let's not start this "the death penalty doesn't work as a deterrent therefore we should abolish it!" nonsense.

The death penalty is highly inefficient.

That's my problem with it.

[Tgo01]

The death penalty is highly inefficient.

As far as?

[Reliel]

As far as?

I want to say...scheduling(?)

You have guys that are sitting on death row for upwards of 30+ years.

[Latrinsorm]

I agree even scum prisoners should be treated humanely. I just don't think it's inhumane to say "Sorry, no AC. AND AND AND! No cable TV!"

Shit that's something you punish your kid with for taking the car without permission.I would not put my child in a tent in the desert in the middle of summer. I don't have a tent (or a child). Also it would be dangerous. I believe I have been clear from the beginning that prisoner safety is what I am concerned with, not cable TV.
I can only hope that you realize the type of person you're attempting to sympathize and pity. Because I doubt they'd do the same if you had something they wanted.I am not approaching this from an emotional perspective; neither sympathy nor pity are accurate descriptions. I am only asking two questions:

How should people be treated? (Ethical.)
In a judicial setting, does treating people poorly result in less crime? (Practical.)

If the practice is ethically and practically unsound, it follows that we should probably avoid it.

[Tgo01]

I want to say...scheduling(?)

You have guys that are sitting on death row for upwards of 30+ years.

I agree, we should streamline the process. Like an assembly line at a car plant.

[Tgo01]

I would not put my child in a tent in the desert in the middle of summer. I don't have a tent (or a child). Also it would be dangerous. I believe I have been clear from the beginning that prisoner safety is what I am concerned with, not cable TV.

How did humans ever survive before AC? Or has there always been AC?

[Reliel]

I agree, we should streamline the process. Like an assembly line at a car plant.
I leave that in your capable hands.


I would not put my child in a tent in the desert in the middle of summer. I don't have a tent (or a child). Also it would be dangerous. I believe I have been clear from the beginning that prisoner safety is what I am concerned with, not cable TV.I am not approaching this from an emotional perspective; neither sympathy nor pity are accurate descriptions. I am only asking two questions:

How should people be treated? (Ethical.)
In a judicial setting, does treating people poorly result in less crime? (Practical.)

If the practice is ethically and practically unsound, it follows that we should probably avoid it.

(Try to back out but you pull me back in.)

First off, you appear to be under the impression that the tents are nothing more than some type of patchwork material. It's a tent, it shields them from the elements. That is more than enough. Hell, I see bunks in Iraq with less room than the tents they use out there.

People should be treated fairly, as long as they adhere to the laws of society. A rapist, murderer, etc (the type of people who go to tent town) should be treated as criminals and so they are (in tent town).
Where are you getting the idea that they are treated poorly? Are they being beaten daily? Water boarded? No. They are being made to live in a tent without the comforts of a modern prison and are watched over by law enforcement.

The practice is neither unethical or practically unsound. It is a means to serve out what is meant to be a punishment.

I feel like you just read the article and didn't bother to find any other information.

[Latrinsorm]

How did humans ever survive before AC? Or has there always been AC?Humanity survived. Individual humans died all the time. The same thing with vaccines, FDA regulations, etc. In this particular case it was pretty easy to avoid, though: don't hang around in the desert. Certain medieval philosophers even thought the Sahara was literally impassable, there are a lot of interesting thoughts on how to reconcile apostolical Christianity with unreachable antipodeans. Would you like to talk about St. Augustine? :)

It may be important, even though your remark is obviously flippant, that we have suddenly started talking about what treatment people can be subjected to and survive, rather than what treatment is cruel.
First off, you appear to be under the impression that the tents are nothing more than some type of patchwork material. It's a tent, it shields them from the elements.A tent makes a fine shield for rain and a decent shield for cold. It's a terrible way to keep cool in heat. More on this later.
People should be treated fairly, as long as they adhere to the laws of society. A rapist, murderer, etc (the type of people who go to tent town) should be treated as criminals and so they are (in tent town).Why?
Where are you getting the idea that they are treated poorly? Are they being beaten daily? Water boarded? No. They are being made to live in a tent without the comforts of a modern prison and are watched over by law enforcement.I did not suggest they were beaten or water boarded. I suggested that living in a tent in the desert is unsafe, and further suggested that it was therefore unconstitutional. More on this later.
I feel like you just read the article and didn't bother to find any other information.That's true. Let's see what other information I can find...

Here (http://www.twoamericans.com/downloads/TwoAmericansPreview.mov) is a hilariously biased video, but skip ahead to about 5/8ths. He's at some kind of rally, and this woman gets up and says "Sheriff are you planning on using these concentration camps..." and I immediately thought she was some liberal plant... but he and the crowd go along with it! Quote: "I already have a concentration camp, it's tent city!" Have you ever, in your life, for any reason, felt like it was a good idea to begin a statement "I already have a concentration camp!"?

Two points from this (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/local/articles/2011/07/03/20110703tent-city-temperatures-rise-145.html) article... "Each of the 1,400 inmates in Tent City has been convicted of non-violent crimes, such as driving under the influence." "The tents can sometimes mimic ovens or hot cars. The gauge in Arpaio's hand indicated 145 degrees, nearly 30 degrees hotter than the day's high."

A federal judge ordered (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/10/23/20081023ruling1023.html) the Sheriff to address "inmate overcrowding and nutrition", an order he failed (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/08/20100408maricopa-county-jail-conditions.html) to comply with after 2 years, then lost (http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/2010-10-13-GravesvArpaio-Opinion.pdf) his appeal to continue noncompliance. Some quotes, with added emphasis mine:
"The district court ordered Sheriff Arpaio to house pretrial detainees taking psychotropic medications in cells where the temperature does not exceed 85° F and to provide detainees with food that satisfies the Dietary Guidelines."
"The district court did not err, therefore, in concluding that dangerously high temperatures that pose a significant risk to detainee health violate the Eighth Amendment."

[Tgo01]

It may be important, even though your remark is obviously flippant, that we have suddenly started talking about what treatment people can be subjected to and survive, rather than what treatment is cruel

So no AC is considered "cruel" now? Come on Latrin, you gotta be trolling me at this point.

[Reliel]

POST

Ashton, you can come out now. I'm being Punk'd right?

Or you just have to biggest, bloodiest, bleeding heart I will probably ever encounter.

Edit: I'm just not understanding how you, as a functioning human adult, could consider treating these scumbags, these child rapists, these murdering fucks, like people. There's just no way that anyone with even a third of a functioning brain would allow these people common luxuries. I just don't. I'm seriously pulling my hair out trying to understand.

Rights? REALLY? Give them rights? Okay sure, I'll give the guy who beats his wife rights. I'll give the guy who raped a teenager rights. Three square meals, shelter, etc. I mean, never mind the family who had their basic human rights violated and their lives destroyed or ruined by this piece of shit. Let's give him something even our poor are missing out on. Because that's the type of justice we dish out! So long as nobody gets hurt or mistreated or even denied something like luxuries.

[Latrinsorm]

So no AC is considered "cruel" now? Come on Latrin, you gotta be trolling me at this point.Don't talk to me, talk to the federal judges who declared it unconstitutional. March your class of 01 butt over there and tell them Latrinsorm sent you. "Latrinsorm. No, not 'storm'. No... listen, let's put pen to paper on this." They may look askance at you couching "140º temperature" as "no AC", though, I must warn you.
Edit: I'm just not understanding how you, as a functioning human adult, could consider treating these scumbags, these child rapists, these murdering fucks, like people.I feel like you missed an important part of my post; namely, that no one in tent city was convicted of a violent crime, let alone an especially egregious violent crime.
There's just no way that anyone with even a third of a functioning brain would allow these people common luxuries.You disagree that this constitutes cruel punishment, and that's your prerogative, but if you really want to understand my thought process it doesn't make any sense to start with what you believe.
Rights? REALLY? Give them rights? Okay sure, I'll give the guy who beats his wife rights. I'll give the guy who raped a teenager rights. Three square meals, shelter, etc. I mean, never mind the family who had their basic human rights violated and their lives destroyed or ruined by this piece of shit. Let's give him something even our poor are missing out on. Because that's the type of justice we dish out! So long as nobody gets hurt or mistreated or even denied something like luxuries.Those rights are not yours to give or take away, nor anyone else's. That's vigilantism, even if you have a shiny badge, and it has no place in the rule of law. Those rights are guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States of America. If it is so distasteful to you, there are plenty of countries in the world where the justice system you want legally exists.

I would also like to mention that Sheriff Arpaio never attempted to make the case that he was justified in infringing prisoner rights, as you suggest. Instead he attempted to make the case that he wasn't infringing on their rights at all, and he failed, repeatedly.

As for the poor, you don't have to twist my arm to want our government to do more for the poor! Bleeding heart, remember? :)

[Tgo01]

Don't talk to me, talk to the federal judges who declared it unconstitutional.

Alright you're trolling. You had me going for a while there.

[Reliel]

Edit: I'm letting this die.

Yeah, yeah. I backed out. I figure it's better to leave with some sanity intact.

[Warriorbird]

The bleeding hearts make it so easy!

The Founding Fathers resent your spurious accusation that they are "bleeding hearts."

[Gelston]

Latrin, when I was in Afghan, over the summer we lived on a thing called a Combat Outpost. Inside it we had tents. Now, those tents originally had AC in them, but they broke just as summer started getting hot. Now, if I can survive in 120 degree + temperatures, while also having to go on long walks wearing shitloads of gear, I think a bunch of prisoners can sit around and do the same. It isn't cruel. It isn't unusual. It is punishment.

BTW, where did you find anything saying the Judges declared the Tent cities themselves unconstitutional?

[Androidpk]

Tent city at Al Udeid was THE shit, I miss that fucking place.

[Reliel]

The Founding Fathers resent your spurious accusation that they are "bleeding hearts."

Our founding Fathers weren't holding candlelight vigils for criminals. They knew that criminals weren't fit for society so many of them were hanged. Or stockaded for weeks. Now call me an asshole but I'm pretty sure nobody was protesting the hanging of a murderer. Or throwing fruit at them as they were exposed to the elements.

[Tepin]

Latrin, when I was in Afghan, over the summer we lived on a thing called a Combat Outpost. Inside it we had tents. Now, those tents originally had AC in them, but they broke just as summer started getting hot. Now, if I can survive in 120 degree + temperatures, while also having to go on long walks wearing shitloads of gear, I think a bunch of prisoners can sit around and do the same. It isn't cruel. It isn't unusual. It is punishment.

BTW, where did you find anything saying the Judges declared the Tent cities themselves unconstitutional?

How many elderly and sick soldiers were you stationed with? Not every "criminal" is a healthy, fit male.


Our founding Fathers weren't holding candlelight vigils for criminals. They knew that criminals weren't fit for society so many of them were hanged. Or stockaded for weeks. Now call me an asshole but I'm pretty sure nobody was protesting the hanging of a murderer. Or throwing fruit at them as they were exposed to the elements.

They also would never consider locking people up for growing a plant or possessing some dope.

[Gelston]

I wasn't stationed with any soldiers in Afghanistan, but...

How many elderly and sick criminals get sent to the Tent city? That isn't the only jail in Maricopia county.

[Tgo01]

How many elderly and sick soldiers were you stationed with? Not every "criminal" is a healthy, fit male.

I would be very surprised if elderly or sick inmates are at this tent city and I would agree it would be cruel to send such prisoners there.

[Atlanteax]

I would be very surprised if elderly or sick inmates are at this tent city and I would agree it would be cruel to send such prisoners there.

Think how much we could save on health-care and long-term care costs !!

[Carl Spackler]

Moral of the story. Don't go to jail.

[Latrinsorm]

Alright you're trolling. You had me going for a while there.Not at all! I try to work in humor because I think it helps diffuse (or possibly defuse) tension, and also because I think I come off as smudge and abrasive otherwise, and I could really use that bonus this year. Hence, the suggestion that you literally talk to a federal judge about this case. That is silly! All you'd actually have to do is read their verdicts (or whatever), which I have already linked for you.
Latrin, when I was in Afghan, over the summer we lived on a thing called a Combat Outpost. Inside it we had tents. Now, those tents originally had AC in them, but they broke just as summer started getting hot. Now, if I can survive in 120 degree + temperatures, while also having to go on long walks wearing shitloads of gear, I think a bunch of prisoners can sit around and do the same. It isn't cruel. It isn't unusual. It is punishment.Again, though, the measurement for cruelty isn't survivability. I bet when you tell people that story they usually remark something like "wow, 120º? that's shitty", rather than "YOU SURVIVED DIDN'T YOU???"
BTW, where did you find anything saying the Judges declared the Tent cities themselves unconstitutional?Nothing I linked specifically declared a tent or tent city unconstitutional. The judges have repeatedly demanded that the sheriff address dangerous temperature issues in general in addition to the one specific but distinct temperature issue, so it comes down to whether you can find a credible doctor to say prolonged exposure to 140º isn't dangerous. (Another thing the judges pointed out several times is that the burden of proof was on the sheriff. I don't know why this is or whether it extends to further cases brought against him, but it's worth emphasizing.)
Our founding Fathers weren't holding candlelight vigils for criminals. They knew that criminals weren't fit for society so many of them were hanged. Or stockaded for weeks. Now call me an asshole but I'm pretty sure nobody was protesting the hanging of a murderer. Or throwing fruit at them as they were exposed to the elements.It's interesting that you bring up the stocks, because that specific punishment was actually the source of the source of the 8th Amendment: after Titus Oates was sentenced to be pilloried once a year, the English parliament said "uh... that was dumb, how about excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.", and we said "yeah that makes sense" and pretty much copied it word for word.

I would also be careful aligning yourself to closely with people who didn't stand up against hangings, considering that two of the crimes that could result in execution in those days were slave revolt and aiding a runaway slave.

[Tgo01]

Not at all! I try to work in humor because I think it helps diffuse (or possibly defuse) tension, and also because I think I come off as smudge and abrasive otherwise, and I could really use that bonus this year. Hence, the suggestion that you literally talk to a federal judge about this case. That is silly! All you'd actually have to do is read their verdicts (or whatever), which I have already linked for you.

Naww it's cool dude, I'm not tense. I just find it silly that your answer basically amounted to "Well the federal court says X therefore X is right." So you always form your opinion based on what current laws are? So you don't find capital punishment wrong then yes?

Also your link just mentions "pretrial detainees" taking "psychotropic medications" should be in cells that do not exceed 85F, y'know for health reasons. If that was your whole point and you have no problem with this tent city for otherwise healthy inmates than okay. If you have a problem with this tent city for all inmates then perhaps you should come up with another source where the courts have ruled it unconstitutional.

[Latrinsorm]

Naww it's cool dude, I'm not tense. I just find it silly that your answer basically amounted to "Well the federal court says X therefore X is right." So you always form your opinion based on what current laws are? So you don't find capital punishment wrong then yes?Ah, but I didn't say "right". I said "unconstitutional".

I happen to be of the opinion that the treatment is morally incorrect, but that is a separate issue to the specific point of cruelty in the specific context of Constitutionality.
Also your link just mentions "pretrial detainees" taking "psychotropic medications" should be in cells that do not exceed 85F, y'know for health reasons. If that was your whole point and you have no problem with this tent city for otherwise healthy inmates than okay. If you have a problem with this tent city for all inmates then perhaps you should come up with another source where the courts have ruled it unconstitutional.My quote mentions that. My link(s) mentions far more.

For an analogy, the courts did not specifically state that prisoners should not be fed arsenic mousse. They generally mentioned that they should receive proper nutrition, which covers many unstated specifics. In this analogy, "tent city" and "pretrial..." are different specifics; the first unstated, the second stated. "dangerously high temperatures that pose a significant risk to detainee health" is the general, which obviously covers the unstated specific in question.

[Tgo01]

My quote mentions that. My link(s) mentions far more.

Your links don't say a whole lot more than your quotes do.

From your links:


The district court did not err, therefore, in concluding that dangerously high temperatures that pose a significant risk to detainee health violate the Eighth Amendment. Accepting the district court’s factual finding that temperatures in excess of 85° F greatly increase the risk of heat related illness for pretrial detainees taking psychotropic medications, it follows that the Eighth Amendment prohibits housing such pretrial detainees in areas where the temperature exceeds 85° F.


The Eighth Amendment protects against dangerously high temperatures, and temperatures in excess of 85° F are dangerous only for the latter, more narrow category of pretrial detainees.


The district court could have ordered Sheriff Arpaio to house pretrial detainees in areas where the temperature does not exceed 85° F if those detainees take psychotropic medications that affect the body’s ability to regulate heat, but that relief would have been insufficient to correct the ongoing Eighth Amendment violations at Maricopa County jails. The district court found that mental health screening and recording-keeping in Maricopa County jails is inadequate, and as a result Sheriff Arpaio does not know which pretrial detainees are taking which medications. Sheriff Arpaio does not contest these findings. Given that Sheriff Arpaio does not know which pretrial detainees are taking medications that affect the body’s ability to regulate heat, limiting relief to that category of pretrial detainees would have been impracticable and thus inadequate to correct the Eighth Amendment violation found by the district court. It was not an abuse of discretion for the district court to order prospective relief that covered all pretrial detainees who take psychotropic medications.

The courts ruled that it would violate the Eighth Amendment to house prisoners who take drugs that affect the body's ability to regulate heat in cells where the temperature is greater than 85 degrees. Since Maricopa County admits they fail at record keeping they have no idea which prisoners are taking such medication so all prisoners who are taking psychotropic medication are covered in this ruling.

It does not state that it violates the Eighth Amendment to house ANY prisoner in cells that reach temperatures greater than 85 degrees. Shit 85 degrees? Saunas easily reach 200 degrees and people manage just fine in them. Temperatures do cool off somewhat in Arizona at night, it can still be in the 80s and 90s but it's not 120+ degrees 24/7 there.

[Gelston]

.Again, though, the measurement for cruelty isn't survivability. I bet when you tell people that story they usually remark something like "wow, 120º? that's shitty", rather than "YOU SURVIVED DIDN'T YOU???"

Then you would lose on that bet. Also, the place wasn't built for "cruelty" as you so fondly call it. It was built because they needed a new jail due to overcrowding, it the Tent City cost $100,000 instead of the $70,000,000 it would cost for a regular one.

[Tepin]

Then you would lose on that bet. Also, the place wasn't built for "cruelty" as you so fondly call it. It was built because they needed a new jail due to overcrowding, it the Tent City cost $100,000 instead of the $70,000,000 it would cost for a regular one.

If they released all the potheads and addicts they would free up a lot of space and actually lessen the negative impact of drug use.

It doesn't matter if it was built for cruelty or not, the courts have said on 2 occassions (2008 and 2010) that people are being treated inhumanely there. It's not just the heat. They are not properly fed and are denied access to medication. Several inmates have died from how they have been treated, and the end result has been tens of millions of dollars in settlements to the families.

I've lived in AZ (grew up there, left 2 1/2 years ago) and I've seen his circus for a long time. This man is a grade A dickhead, and his campaigns don't do anything but promote his job. He is horrible at preventing and solving crimes.

[Tgo01]

If they released all the potheads and addicts they would free up a lot of space and actually lessen the negative impact of drug use.

We get it already. Legalize weed and we'll solve our deficit problem, everyone will be happier, everyone will be cured of cancer and world peace will suddenly break out.

Also Tepin do you have any links for people who have died in this tent city because of the living conditions? I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything about people dying there much less settlements for the families to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. Not saying you're lying just saying I'm lazy and didn't feel like spending much time searching for such stories.

[Gelston]

http://abouttentcity.com/forum/personal-experiences/

Doesn't seem that cruel to me at all, or even people who have been there.

[Latrinsorm]

Then you would lose on that bet.People really bark at you that you survived rather than sympathize with the conditions you were in? You hang out with some real jerks.
Also, the place wasn't built for "cruelty" as you so fondly call it. It was built because they needed a new jail due to overcrowding, it the Tent City cost $100,000 instead of the $70,000,000 it would cost for a regular one.I made no claims as to what it was built for. The only claims I have made are to its current conditions.

For the purposes of this discussion, I wholeheartedly accept your price tags. The 8th amendment doesn't say people are free from cruel and unusual punishment unless it would cost too much. I'm very happy for the Sheriff that he was able to save so much money, but he crossed the line to do so, as has been demonstrated by the repeated federal rulings against him (et al).
Also Tepin do you have any links for people who have died in this tent city because of the living conditions? I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything about people dying there much less settlements for the families to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. Not saying you're lying just saying I'm lazy and didn't feel like spending much time searching for such stories.The big settlements I found were for when his officers beat prisoners to death, and one to quadriplegia, but to be fair that guy was already paraplegic. We can't expect multiple law enforcement officials to be able to subdue a single cripple without breaking his neck, can we?

I could only find an offhand reference to deaths in tent city without specifics, so I'm pretty sure none have occurred there.

[Latrinsorm]

http://abouttentcity.com/forum/personal-experiences/

Doesn't seem that cruel to me at all, or even people who have been there.I guess if you want to put more stock in anonymous Internet comments than federal lawsuits, that's your call.

[Gelston]

You are an anonymous internet comment also, so yeah. There are actually some really interesting stories in that forum about living in tent city. You should go read them instead of just dismissing them.

The Federal lawsuits were not specifically about Tent City though. They were about treatment in both jails.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Tent City Fish guide taken from the Tent City forum like somewhere above. Good shit man! If people followed 1, 3, 5, 6, 9, 11, and 13 outside of Tent City, I think the world would be a better place.




A fish is a new prisoner, usually someone unschooled in prison etiquette. If you know someone who is heading to prison for the first time, you may want to send them this guide. It could save that person’s life. This survival guide was compiled with the help of Xena who is aware of dozens of people who have been smashed, stabbed or killed for violating these guidelines.

1. Stay out of debt – especially drug debts. If you use drugs, know how to pay for them. More people die from being unable to pay drug debts than for any other reason.
2. Know who the gang members are in your race, and know what their rules are. There are two sets of rules: Department of Corrections' rules and the political rules enforced by the gangs – play them in conjunction. For example, befriending someone from another race may get you smashed.
3. Don’t flash money or property around. Most inmates have little or none, and will take yours if they can. If you have money, help your indigent friends, especially with hygiene products. If you have no cash, get a job or try private enterprise (drawing and tattooing are common).
4. Do not be perceived as being friendly with prison guards, or you may be suspected of snitching, which can get you killed. If you know a guard prior to coming to prison, keep it secret.
5. Do not talk about people unless they are present. Do not whine or complain – especially around lifers – or you may get smashed. Don’t lie, and always keep any promises you make. If you’re a short-timer don’t talk about it. Don’t ask people how much time they are serving, or for why. Wait until you get to know them and they are comfortable around you, if you want to ask these questions.
6. Don’t act like a big shot unless you can fight. Bear in mind that if someone challenges you, and you don’t fight, you may be perceived as weak and be taken advantage of by others.
7. Don’t show weakness or let your emotional barrier down. Especially youngsters, who can easily become extortion and rape fodder for the hardcore. Never cry.
8. If you are gay, stay in the closet unless you are prepared to fight people who will want to stab or rape you. If you are openly gay, find a man with power who can protect you.
9. Don’t become obese or you’ll be perceived as unhealthy and weak, to be preyed upon. In prison, more people work out than in any other society.
10. Learn prison slang. Beware of becoming a "torpedo" – usually a youngster manipulated to smash (beat up) someone so that the manipulator doesn’t get his hands dirty. Beware of someone doing an "okey-doke" on you – for example, an inmate lying to you about being called a punk, so that you will fight his enemy. Beware of becoming a "trick-bag" – being manipulated into saying something offensive to another, not realising that you were being insulting.
11. Stay hygienically clean. Being dirty is considered disrespectful, especially to your own race.
12. If you practice a minority religion, you may want to keep it secret rather than risk being smashed.
13. Don’t cut your life short by contracting a deadly disease from using dirty tattoo instruments or syringes. If you have to inject drugs, bleach the works first.

[Gelston]

I like how Xena: Warrior Princess helped create it.

[Latrinsorm]

You are an anonymous internet comment also, so yeah. There are actually some really interesting stories in that forum about living in tent city. You should go read them instead of just dismissing them.I very much resent the suggestion that I didn't read them, or that I dismissed them. Putting MORE stock in one thing doesn't mean putting NO stock in the other.

The abuses of Sheriff Arpaio and those under his command are a matter of public record, they have been (repeatedly!) established in a court of law. Of course there are individual people who were not paralyzed, beaten to death, fed garbage, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the prisoners under his jurisdiction enjoyed Constitutionally valid incarceration, or even 95%, or even 99%... but the only acceptable number is 100%. It's the same way that if Glenn Beck only kills 1 of the 10,000 women he met in his life, he's still a murderer.

[Reliel]

You should go read them instead of just dismissing them.

Skimming IS reading!!!11!1

[Gelston]

I very much resent the suggestion that I didn't read them, or that I dismissed them. Putting MORE stock in one thing doesn't mean putting NO stock in the other.

The abuses of Sheriff Arpaio and those under his command are a matter of public record, they have been (repeatedly!) established in a court of law. Of course there are individual people who were not paralyzed, beaten to death, fed garbage, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the prisoners under his jurisdiction enjoyed Constitutionally valid incarceration, or even 95%, or even 99%... but the only acceptable number is 100%. It's the same way that if Glenn Beck only kills 1 of the 10,000 women he met in his life, he's still a murderer.

Again, that was out of BOTH jails and didn't cite one in particular. It wasn't judging the JAIL itself, it was judging his negligence in both jails.

[Warriorbird]

Skimming IS reading!!!11!1

Thus sayeth Donnie.

[Reliel]

Thus sayeth Donnie.

I feel like asking who Donnie is but I get the distinct feeling you would say "You."

So...to avoid disappointing the angry red rep that says I contribute nothing... Who is Donnie?