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Drew
09-07-2011, 04:18 PM
... because it might contradict anthropogenic global warming and going against that is career suicide.



In April 1990, Al Gore published an open letter in the New York Times "To Skeptics on Global Warming" in which he compared them to medieval flat-Earthers. He soon became vice president and his conviction that climate change was dominated by man-made emissions went mainstream. Western governments embarked on a new era of anti-emission regulation and poured billions into research that might justify it. As far as the average Western politician was concerned, the debate was over.

But a few physicists weren't worrying about Al Gore in the 1990s. They were theorizing about another possible factor in climate change: charged subatomic particles from outer space, or "cosmic rays," whose atmospheric levels appear to rise and fall with the weakness or strength of solar winds that deflect them from the earth. These shifts might significantly impact the type and quantity of clouds covering the earth, providing a clue to one of the least-understood but most important questions about climate. Heavenly bodies might be driving long-term weather trends.

The theory has now moved from the corners of climate skepticism to the center of the physical-science universe: the European Organization for Nuclear Research, also known as CERN. At the Franco-Swiss home of the world's most powerful particle accelerator, scientists have been shooting simulated cosmic rays into a cloud chamber to isolate and measure their contribution to cloud formation. CERN's researchers reported last month that in the conditions they've observed so far, these rays appear to be enhancing the formation rates of pre-cloud seeds by up to a factor of 10. Current climate models do not consider any impact of cosmic rays on clouds.

Scientists have been speculating on the relationship among cosmic rays, solar activity and clouds since at least the 1970s. But the notion didn't get a workout until 1995, when Danish physicist Henrik Svensmark came across a 1991 paper by Eigil Friis-Christensen and Knud Lassen, who had charted a close relationship between solar variations and changes in the earth's surface temperature since 1860.

"I had this idea that the real link could be between cloud cover and cosmic rays, and I wanted to try to figure out if it was a good idea or a bad idea," Mr. Svensmark told me from Copenhagen, where he leads sun-climate research at the Danish National Space Institute.

He wasn't the first scientist to have the idea, but he was the first to try to demonstrate it. He got in touch with Mr. Friis-Christensen, and they used satellite data to show a close correlation among solar activity, cloud cover and cosmic-ray levels since 1979.

They announced their findings, and the possible climatic implications, at a 1996 space conference in Birmingham, England. Then, as Mr. Svensmark recalls, "everything went completely crazy. . . . It turned out it was very, very sensitive to say these things already at that time." He returned to Copenhagen to find his local daily leading with a quote from the then-chair of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC): "I find the move from this pair scientifically extremely naïve and irresponsible."

Mr. Svensmark had been, at the very least, politically naïve. "Before 1995 I was doing things related to quantum fluctuations. Nobody was interested, it was just me sitting in my office. It was really an eye-opener, that baptism into climate science." He says his work was "very much ignored" by the climate-science establishment—but not by CERN physicist Jasper Kirkby, who is leading today's ongoing cloud-chamber experiment.

On the phone from Geneva, Mr. Kirkby says that Mr. Svensmark's hypothesis "started me thinking: There's good evidence that pre-industrial climate has frequently varied on 100-year timescales, and what's been found is that often these variations correlate with changes in solar activity, solar wind. You see correlations in the atmosphere between cosmic rays and clouds—that's what Svensmark reported. But these correlations don't prove cause and effect, and it's very difficult to isolate what's due to cosmic rays and what's due to other things."

In 1997 he decided that "the best way to settle it would be to use the CERN particle beam as an artificial source of cosmic rays and reconstruct an artificial atmosphere in the lab." He predicted to reporters at the time that, based on Mr. Svensmark's paper, the theory would "probably be able to account for somewhere between a half and the whole" of 20th-century warming. He gathered a team of scientists, including Mr. Svensmark, and proposed the groundbreaking experiment to his bosses at CERN.

Then he waited. It took six years for CERN to greenlight and fund the experiment. Mr. Kirkby cites financial pressures for the delay and says that "it wasn't political."

Mr. Svensmark declines entirely to guess why CERN took so long, noting only that "more generally in the climate community that is so sensitive, sometimes science goes into the background."

By 2002, a handful of other scientists had started to explore the correlation, and Mr. Svensmark decided that "if I was going to be proved wrong, it would be nice if I did it myself." He decided to go ahead in Denmark and construct his own cloud chamber. "In 2006 we had our first results: We had demonstrated the mechanism" of cosmic rays enhancing cloud formation. The IPCC's 2007 report all but dismissed the theory.

Mr. Kirkby's CERN experiment was finally approved in 2006 and has been under way since 2009. So far, it has not proved Mr. Svensmark wrong. "The result simply leaves open the possibility that cosmic rays could influence the climate," stresses Mr. Kirkby, quick to tamp down any interpretation that would make for a good headline.

This seems wise: In July, CERN Director General Rolf-Dieter Heuer told Die Welt that he was asking his researchers to make the forthcoming cloud-chamber results "clear, however, not to interpret them. This would go immediately into the highly political arena of the climate-change debate."

But while the cosmic-ray theory has been ridiculed from the start by those who subscribe to the anthropogenic-warming theory, both Mr. Kirkby and Mr. Svensmark hold that human activity is contributing to climate change. All they question is its importance relative to other, natural factors.

Through several more years of "careful, quantitative measurement" at CERN, Mr. Kirkby predicts he and his team will "definitively answer the question of whether or not cosmic rays have a climatically significant effect on clouds." His old ally Mr. Svensmark feels he's already answered that question, and he guesses that CERN's initial results "could have been achieved eight to 10 years ago, if the project had been approved and financed."

The biggest milestone in last month's publication may be not the content but the source, which will be a lot harder to ignore than Mr. Svensmark and his small Danish institute.

Any regrets, now that CERN's particle accelerator is spinning without him? "No. It's been both a blessing and the opposite," says Mr. Svensmark. "I had this field more or less to myself for years—that would never have happened in other areas of science, such as particle physics. But this has been something that most climate scientists would not be associated with. I remember another researcher saying to me years ago that the only thing he could say about cosmic rays and climate was it that it was a really bad career move."

On that point, Mr. Kirkby—whose organization is controlled by not one but 20 governments—really does not want to discuss politics at all: "I'm an experimental particle physicist, okay? That somehow nature may have decided to connect the high-energy physics of the cosmos with the earth's atmosphere—that's what nature may have done, not what I've done."

Last month's findings don't herald the end of a debate, but the resumption of one. That is, if the politicians purporting to legislate based on science will allow it.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904537404576554750502443800.html

Parkbandit
09-07-2011, 04:31 PM
WSJ IS FAUX NEWS!!!!11111oneone.

diethx
09-07-2011, 04:35 PM
I love your new avatar, Drew.

Drew
09-07-2011, 04:36 PM
If only it was a little bigger (twss)!

Tgo01
09-07-2011, 04:39 PM
This whole global warming debate is a joke. Not the debate itself but how people who go against the idea of man made global warming are demonized. Most of the research done that says global warming is not man made is funded by oil companies and people point to that fact and say "See? It's biased!" Well of course it's biased, who else out there has a stake in proving global warming is not man made?

Then you have people like this who are shot down before they even begin because all 'credible' scientists have already determined that man is to blame. I thought in the field of science everything is a theory until someone can prove a more likely theory, yet when it comes to global warming it seems it's already fact and no one can say anything to counter it.

Cephalopod
09-07-2011, 04:45 PM
So, a theory that's been generally accepted since it's introduction (that highly ionizing radiation can create ultra-small aerosol particles), but was explained away due to a lack of corresponding data is causing waves... why? The general stance since Svensmark's sensational press releases years ago was basically "If this is true, that's nice... but it doesn't affect our models". The same is true today.

The CERN CLOUD results are interesting and follow the model way of doing science, but they don't disprove any existing AGW climate theory. Cosmic rays have been taken into account for years now, even if we didn't understand how cosmic rays affected cloud formation. Specifically, to show that cosmic rays were actually responsible for some part of the recent warming, you would need to show that there was actually a decreasing trend in cosmic rays over recent decades – which is tricky, because there hasn’t been.

I'm anxious to see a lot of people jumping onto this as 'proof against AGW' and later realize they've shot themselves in the foot.

BriarFox
09-07-2011, 04:47 PM
This is not an either-or scenario (binary thinking). These scientists themselves say that they want to figure out how MUCH these rays contribute, not whether it's omg man-made or omg natural. The article itself says that ...

The title and intro are disingenuous.

Tgo01
09-07-2011, 04:51 PM
This is not an either-or scenario (binary thinking). These scientists themselves say that they want to figure out how MUCH these rays contribute, not whether it's omg man-made or omg natural. The article itself says that ...

If the theory presented in this article says 95% of global warming trends are not caused by man then that pretty much makes this an either or scenario and we can't have that now.

BriarFox
09-07-2011, 04:52 PM
Depressing that the WSJ is becoming more biasedly ideological with its new ownership, but totally expected.

Cephalopod
09-07-2011, 04:54 PM
Then you have people like this who are shot down before they even begin because all 'credible' scientists have already determined that man is to blame

Who was shot down and how?

Svensmark made assertions years ago that had no scientific basis, and he didn't bother to follow up his assertions with research. Kirby (who is the REAL scientist here) et al found that one of Svensmark's assertions was correct through actual research, but there is still no evidence that it impacts any current AGW theories. This is why the cosmic ray theory has been discounted for years as a primary 'mover' for climate change: even if Svensmark is correct that cosmic rays can affect cloud formation, the cosmic ray data do not corelate with the climate change data. Even Svensmark admits that humans are responsible for climate change, his particular slant is just that cosmic rays are more responsible than the data show.

Cephalopod
09-07-2011, 04:56 PM
If the theory presented in this article says 95% of global warming trends are not caused by man then that pretty much makes this an either or scenario and we can't have that now.

95%?

Parkbandit
09-07-2011, 04:59 PM
95%?

I'm with Nachos... where did you get 95% That's about double what most say it could be.

HYPERBOLE!!!

Tgo01
09-07-2011, 05:06 PM
Who was shot down and how?

Svensmark made assertions years ago that had no scientific basis, and he didn't bother to follow up his assertions with research. Kirby (who is the REAL scientist here) et al found that one of Svensmark's assertions was correct through actual research, but there is still no evidence that it impacts any current AGW theories. This is why the cosmic ray theory has been discounted for years as a primary 'mover' for climate change: even if Svensmark is correct that cosmic rays can affect cloud formation, the cosmic ray data do not corelate with the climate change data. Even Svensmark admits that humans are responsible for climate change, his particular slant is just that cosmic rays are more responsible than the data show.

According to this article anyway Svensmark was all but ostracized after presenting his theory and probably would have kept being ignored if Kirkby didn't take an interest. Then it takes 6-10 years for CERN to approve the experiment even with a REAL scientist asking for the go ahead?


95%?

96%?

Parkbandit
09-07-2011, 05:12 PM
According to this article anyway Svensmark was all but ostracized after presenting his theory and probably would have kept being ignored if Kirkby didn't take an interest. Then it takes 6-10 years for CERN to approve the experiment even with a REAL scientist asking for the go ahead?

There is no money to be made if it's found that cosmic rays / solar wind is the culprit to ZOMG GLOBAL WARMING. Anyway, who would believe such a crackpot theory as the sun having to do with the heating up of the Earth.

You must be one of those flat earthers. I bet you wish there was still slavery.

Racist.



96%?

If I had to guess, it's probably closer to 98%

Tgo01
09-07-2011, 05:17 PM
There is no money to be made if it's found that cosmic rays / solar wind is the culprit to ZOMG GLOBAL WARMING. Anyway, who would believe such a crackpot theory as the sun having to do with the heating up of the Earth.

You must be one of those flat earthers. I bet you wish there was still slavery.

Racist.

Damn, you got me :(

Latrinsorm
09-07-2011, 05:32 PM
Current climate models do not consider any impact of cosmic rays on clouds.This is the real sneaky part of the article. If climate models include cosmic ray impact generically, it is technically accurate and at first glance justifies the following categorizations. Very sneaky, 8 marks of 10.
"The result simply leaves open the possibility that cosmic rays could influence the climate," stresses Mr. Kirkby, quick to tamp down any interpretation that would make for a good headline.So much for that.
Well of course it's biased, who else out there has a stake in proving global warming is not man made?You're not supposed to have a conclusion in mind when you're doing science. It leads to confirmation bias and the other scientists making fun of you. If there is evidence for or against any given conclusion, an unbiased observer has to be able to see it for science to care about it.
Then it takes 6-10 years for CERN to approve the experiment even with a REAL scientist asking for the go ahead?You're not thinking like a particle physicist. To them three proposed experiments for one time slot look like this:

1. Discover a new fundamental particle.
2. Simulate the universe at 0.000000005 seconds after the Big Bang.
3. Some bullshit about clouds. Not even cool clouds, like gluon clouds or plasma clouds or something. Water clouds. On Earth.

Particle guys aren't going to pick #3 for a long time.

Tgo01
09-07-2011, 05:44 PM
You're not supposed to have a conclusion in mind when you're doing science. It leads to confirmation bias and the other scientists making fun of you. If there is evidence for or against any given conclusion, an unbiased observer has to be able to see it for science to care about it.

I meant it's biased considering it's source. In other words people who are funded by oil companies are automatically discounted because of where their funding came from. As if a company that makes a lot of green products is going to hear a theory from a scientist claiming humans are not largely responsible for global warming then offering them a 10 million dollar grant to prove their theory.

Warriorbird
09-07-2011, 05:49 PM
Primarily, there's heartwarming conservative hay to be made if scientists set out to "prove global warming wrong." Intelligent Design 2. The sad thing is otherwise unreligious Republicans buy this one because it makes them feel like heroes.

Parkbandit
09-07-2011, 06:09 PM
Primarily, there's heartwarming conservative hay to be made if scientists set out to "prove global warming wrong." Intelligent Design 2. The sad thing is otherwise unreligious Republicans buy this one because it makes them feel like heroes.

I always feel like a hero.. but I don't think it has to do with my disbelief in the "science" behind man made global warming.

It might have to do with me wearing a cape around the house...

Drew
09-07-2011, 06:22 PM
An April 28, 1975 article in Newsweek magazine was titled "The Warming World", it pointed to "ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change" and pointed to "a raise of half a degree [Fahrenheit] in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968." The article claimed "The evidence in support of these predictions [of global warming] has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it." The Newsweek article did not state the cause of warming; it stated that "what causes the onset of major and minor temperature cycles remains a mystery" and cited the NAS conclusion that "not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions."

The Newsweek article concluded by criticizing government leaders: "But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies...The longer the planners (politicians) delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality." The article emphasized sensational and largely unsourced consequences - "resulting famines could be catastrophic", "drought and desolation," "the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded", "droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long periods of warmth, delayed monsoons," "impossible for starving peoples to migrate,"

.

Parkbandit
09-07-2011, 06:34 PM
I pray for global cooling every day from May 1st through September 30th.

Deathravin
09-07-2011, 08:59 PM
Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoSVoxwYrKI&t=6m34s)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364682697000011
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1468-4004.2000.00418.x/abstract
http://eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/adinfriris.pdf

For those too lazy to read:
http://i.imgur.com/f6L4v.png

More information (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KLGqDSAjo&feature=&p=ED66C90D0CE07C45&index=0&playnext=1)

Deathravin
09-07-2011, 09:19 PM
An April 28, 1975 article in Newsweek magazine was titled "The Warming World", it pointed to "ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change" and pointed to "a raise of half a degree [Fahrenheit] in average ground temperatures in the Northern Hemisphere between 1945 and 1968." The article claimed "The evidence in support of these predictions [of global warming] has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it." The Newsweek article did not state the cause of warming; it stated that "what causes the onset of major and minor temperature cycles remains a mystery" and cited the NAS conclusion that "not only are the basic scientific questions largely unanswered, but in many cases we do not yet know enough to pose the key questions."

The Newsweek article concluded by criticizing government leaders: "But the scientists see few signs that government leaders anywhere are even prepared to take the simple measures of stockpiling food or of introducing the variables of climatic uncertainty into economic projections of future food supplies...The longer the planners (politicians) delay, the more difficult will they find it to cope with climatic change once the results become grim reality." The article emphasized sensational and largely unsourced consequences - "resulting famines could be catastrophic", "drought and desolation," "the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded", "droughts, floods, extended dry spells, long periods of warmth, delayed monsoons," "impossible for starving peoples to migrate,"

Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMmPtEt8dc)

The Whole Playlist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KLGqDSAjo&feature=&p=ED66C90D0CE07C45&index=0&playnext=1)

Tgo01
09-07-2011, 09:28 PM
Deathravin I need things dumbed down more than that. Is man to blame or is Rojo to blame?

Deathravin
09-07-2011, 09:34 PM
You're to blame.

Latrinsorm
09-08-2011, 05:18 PM
I meant it's biased considering it's source. In other words people who are funded by oil companies are automatically discounted because of where their funding came from. As if a company that makes a lot of green products is going to hear a theory from a scientist claiming humans are not largely responsible for global warming then offering them a 10 million dollar grant to prove their theory.Well, it is pretty suspicious for any company to fund PR research, don't you think? Finding out the cause of global climate change doesn't help an oil company get or process oil, it only helps them market it. It becomes even more suspicious if people funded by other sources (i.e. government) can't reproduce the findings of people funded by potentially compromised sources.

Tgo01
09-08-2011, 06:19 PM
It becomes even more suspicious if people funded by other sources (i.e. government) can't reproduce the findings of people funded by potentially compromised sources.

Are you suggesting governments can't be potentially compromised sources?

g++
09-08-2011, 07:39 PM
Relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMmPtEt8dc)

The Whole Playlist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KLGqDSAjo&feature=&p=ED66C90D0CE07C45&index=0&playnext=1)

Those videos were very interesting, thanks for posting them.

Deathravin
09-08-2011, 08:19 PM
potholer54 rocks. More about him here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YMxpqYEjyo). He has a glorious mustache.

Latrinsorm
09-08-2011, 11:50 PM
Are you suggesting governments can't be potentially compromised sources?Not in the same sense, no.

Deathravin
09-09-2011, 11:02 AM
More relevance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvztL9r47MI) - new video released 2011/09/08

Cephalopod
09-13-2011, 12:09 PM
Randomly bumping this, since it's our latest climate-related thread...

This is an article/essay from one of the scientists who recently discovered the 'diamond' planet, which received a lot of mainstream press.



Diamond planets, climate change and the scientific method (http://theconversation.edu.au/diamond-planets-climate-change-and-the-scientific-method-3329)

Our host institutions were thrilled with the publicity and most of us enjoyed our 15 minutes of fame. The attention we received was 100% positive, but how different that could have been.

How so? Well, we could have been climate scientists.

Imagine for a minute that, instead of discovering a diamond planet, we’d made a breakthrough in global temperature projections.

Let’s say we studied computer models of the influence of excessive greenhouse gases, verified them through observations, then had them peer-reviewed and published in Science.

Instead of sitting back and basking in the glory, I suspect we’d find a lot of commentators, many with no scientific qualifications, pouring scorn on our findings.

People on the fringe of science would be quoted as opponents of our work, arguing that it was nothing more than a theory yet to be conclusively proven.

There would be doubt cast on the interpretation of our data and conjecture about whether we were “buddies” with the journal referees.

If our opponents dug really deep they might even find that I’d once written a paper on a similar topic that had to be retracted.

Before long our credibility and findings would be under serious question.

But luckily we’re not climate scientists.

...

Sadly, the same media commentators who celebrate diamond planets without question are all too quick to dismiss the latest peer-reviewed evidence (http://theconversation.edu.au/whos-your-expert-the-difference-between-peer-review-and-rhetoric-1550) that suggests man-made activities are responsible for changes in concentrations of CO2 in our atmosphere.

The scientific method is universal. If we selectively ignore it in certain disciplines, we do so at our peril.