Terror attack in Norway

[Parkbandit]

OSLO — A lone political extremist bombed the government center here on Friday, killing 7 people, the police said, before heading to an island summer camp for young members of the governing Labor Party and killing at least 80 people.

The police arrested a 32-year-old Norwegian man in connection with both attacks, the deadliest on Norwegian soil since World War II.

The explosions in Oslo, from one or more bombs, turned the tidy Scandinavian capital into a scene reminiscent of terrorist attacks in Baghdad or Oklahoma City, panicking people and blowing out windows of several government buildings, including one housing the office of the Norwegian prime minister, Jens Stoltenberg, who was unharmed.

The state television broadcaster, citing the police, said seven people had been killed and at least 15 wounded in the explosions, which they said appeared to be an act of domestic terrorism.

Even as the police locked down a large area of the city after the blasts, the suspect, dressed as a police officer, entered the youth camp on the island of Utoya, about 19 miles northwest of Oslo, a Norwegian security official said, and opened fire. “He said it was a routine check in connection with the terror attack in Oslo,” one witness told VG Nett, the Web site of a national newspaper.

Of the at least 80 people killed on the island, some were as young as 16, the police said on national television early Saturday.

Terrified youths jumped into the water to escape. “Kids have started to swim in a panic, and Utoya is far from the mainland,” said Bjorn Jarle Roberg-Larsen, a Labor Party member who spoke by phone with teenagers on the island, which has no bridge to the mainland. “Others are hiding. Those I spoke with don’t want to talk more. They’re scared to death.”

Many could not flee in time.

“He first shot people on the island,” a 15-year-old camper named Elise told The Associated Press. “Afterward he started shooting people in the water.”

Most of the campers were teenagers but there were also adults on the island, who may have been among the victims.

After the shooting the police seized a 32-year-old Norwegian man on the island, according to the police and Justice Minister Knut Storberget. He was later identified as Anders Behring Breivik and characterized by officials as a right-wing extremist, citing previous writings including on his Facebook page.

The acting police chief, Sveinung Sponheim, said the suspect’s Internet postings “suggest that he has some political traits directed toward the right, and anti-Muslim views, but if that was a motivation for the actual act remains to be seen.”

He said the suspect had also been seen in Oslo before the explosions. The police and other authorities declined to say what the suspect’s motivations might have been, but many speculated that the target was Mr. Stoltenberg’s liberal government.

“The police have every reason to believe there is a connection between the explosions and what happened at Utoya,” the police said. They said they later recovered explosives on the island.

Mr. Breivik had registered a farm-related business in Rena, in eastern Norway, which the authorities said allowed him to order a large quantity of ammonium nitrate fertilizer, an ingredient that can be used to make explosives. Authorities were investigating whether the chemical may have been used in the bombing.

A Facebook page matching his name and the photo given out by the police was set up just a few days ago. It listed his religion as Christian, politics as conservative. It said he enjoys hunting, the video games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and books including Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and George Orwell’s “1984.”

There was also a Twitter account apparently belonging to Mr. Breivik. It had one item, posted last Sunday: “One person with a belief is equal to the force of 100,000 who have only interests.”

As the investigations continued, the police asked people to leave the center of Oslo, stay indoors and limit their cellphone use. They also said they would initiate border checks.

The attacks bewildered a nation better known for its active diplomacy and peacekeeping missions than as a target for extremists.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/world/europe/23oslo.html?_r=2&hp

Watching the Today show this morning.. the host and corespondent seemed absolutely giddy at the thought that this was a "right-wing extremist".. and used that phrase 5 times.

[TheEschaton]

A Facebook page matching his name and the photo given out by the police was set up just a few days ago. It listed his religion as Christian, politics as conservative. It said he enjoys hunting, the video games World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2, and books including Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and George Orwell’s “1984.”


Doh. Incoming more "video games make you violent" debates. Interestingly, you never hear the "books make you violent" rhetoric, yet Machiavelli is much more cynical and graphic than WoW or MW2.

[waywardgs]

The article I read said this guy was using a "sniper rifle" in the shootings and that the death toll was now 90+. Pretty incredible that he was able to shoot 90 people with a rifle before it came to an end.

Also, WTF, Norway? Norwegians are supposed to be all nice and quiet. Shit.

[LMingrone]

He had more than a rifle. He had an auto (don't think they have reported what type yet). He was dressed in a police uniform and was telling the kids to huddle near him, and then blasted em all. So sick. If you can find the pic CNN released, there's a bunch of dead teenagers floating in the water around him, while he is giving up to the police. Probably because he ran out of bullets. Hate.

Edit: also, he was a member of a gun club. I believe he had a collectors license. You can't shoot them in Norway, but how hard would it be? Killing innocent kids,what the fuck is wrong with people?

[4a6c1]

:(

My best friend was born there. He flew home to be with his mother. This is unreal.

[Parkbandit]

Wasn't he also the one responsible for the car bomb as well?

[LMingrone]

He is supposed to be involved in the bombing too. Eyewitness accounts say there was more than one person getting into the van though.

[~Rocktar~]

One could wonder why this individual is "in custody" instead of "in the morgue"? In most countries you can bet he would be residing in the latter.

[TheEschaton]

That's just like how we killed Tim McVeigh and the D.C. sniper once we surrounded them, right?

[~Rocktar~]

That's just like how we killed Tim McVeigh and the D.C. sniper once we surrounded them, right?

Either one would likely have done better in the morgue.

[TheEschaton]

One's already there, the other one is on his way, and we didn't even have to gun them down in the street.

[~Rocktar~]

One's already there, the other one is on his way, and we didn't even have to gun them down in the street.

Police ammunition is much cheaper.

[WRoss]

This incident, while a tragedy, reminds me much of Jared Loughtner (sp?). It appears that a lone individual took it upon himself to inflict an act of violence. Both the right and left will sensationalize the act and use it as a means to plug their own agenda. I respect the way that the Norwegian Prime Minister has acted when he claimed that this act will disrupt the civil freedoms of his country.

[Nieninque]

This incident, while a tragedy, reminds me much of Jared Loughtner (sp?). It appears that a lone individual took it upon himself to inflict an act of violence.

It's a really interesting point. Had he been Muslim, it would have been seen as a wider act of all muslims against against a white/Christian way of life. Shit, the Sun newspaper already pegged it as an Al Qaida attack the day after it happened. As he is a white Christian , it's already a "nutjob" individual attack.

Without wishing to detract from the fact that whoever and whyever, it is a terrible tragedy, the sweeping generalisations and racist backlash that followed other attacks just wont happen.

[SonoftheNorth]

he's going to get 21 years. the maximum sentence in norway.

[4a6c1]

Wow. That's unusual. I wonder if their system is even comparable to ours. Do they not further complicate the problems of society by locking up the prostitutes and druggies? Maybe they are a society that treats problems from the place they arise and not after the fact by locking away the result? So not a prison state? How exciting. I'm excited.

[Parkbandit]

Without wishing to detract from the fact that whoever and whyever, it is a terrible tragedy, the sweeping generalisations and racist backlash that followed other attacks just wont happen.

Backlash is a racist? I thought he was just stupid.

Good to know.

[Tgo01]

Great I'm going to start getting those emails that say "Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? A white catholic was responsible. Remember the Oslo attack? A white Christian was responsible. So let's ignore the dozens of terrorist attacks carried out on a monthly basis by Muslim extremists and remember that whitey is the real terrorist!"

[Parkbandit]

a terrible and senseless tragedy that all should condemn. essentially, the guy was pissed at the Labour party for their multiculturalism. he was a modern day "Crusader," the product of the popular anti-Islam culture that is so infectious in the post 9/11 environment.

http://news.yahoo.com/norway-suspect-deems-killings-atrocious-needed-013354792.html

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/24/norway-mourns-victims-of-anti-islam-attacker

apparently the attacker was a Geert Wilders wannabe

http://www.nashvillescene.com/binary/2373/1305222634-24697_geert_wilders.jpg

this, on top of the fact that the initial news reports blamed Muslims for the attack. the PR backlash is already underway on that one.

it's going to be a very very interesting news day in the Islamic world. I guess all human beings are capable of terrorism. this attack won't realign the Earth's tilt like 9/11, but a lot of the finger pointing and bigotry is likely to melt away.

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/07/24/3088679/norway-killer-espoused-new-right-wing-pro-israel-philosophy

he espoused a pro Israel philosophy in addition to his unwavering bigotry

watch out sst!

I wonder if people on this board will be legitimately investigated for their anti-Islam views? Where has the moderation been here?

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=53971

You just can't stay away from this message board, can you IW?

[Kuyuk]

.. like a few hundred other people. i read it when i'm bored and surfing the internet. the fact that you find this unusual is actually rather strange. anyway, you guys have bigger trolls to fry. i'll stay out of your hair and just leave it with these 2 posts.

Nah, I think you're the biggest troll currently...

[Latrinsorm]

Great I'm going to start getting those emails that say "Remember the Oklahoma City bombing? A white catholic was responsible. Remember the Oslo attack? A white Christian was responsible. So let's ignore the dozens of terrorist attacks carried out on a monthly basis by Muslim extremists and remember that whitey is the real terrorist!"The point is that this act was no more motivated by right-wing ideology than any of those were by Muslim ideology.

[Tgo01]

The point is that this act was no more motivated by right-wing ideology than any of those were by Muslim ideology.

So you're the one who sends out those emails?

[Latrinsorm]

So you're the one who sends out those emails?Email has a Fox News bias. Do you think it's a coincidence that the founder of Google is Rupert Murdoch's nephew?

[Parkbandit]

.. like a few hundred other people. i read it when i'm bored and surfing the internet. the fact that you find this unusual is actually rather strange. anyway, you guys have bigger trolls to fry. i'll stay out of your hair and just leave it with these 2 posts.

There is a difference. You have been banned from this site.. essentially told that no one wants you around. Yet, you continue to go through the process of making a new ID and creating a new email address and using a new IP just to post once or twice before you get that ID banned.

Your new son must be so proud...

[Tolwynn]

i'll stay out of your hair and just leave it with these 2 posts.

Keeping word for even an hour was too much to bear, apparently.

[diethx]

.

PB, while really ridiculous sometimes, has not been banned. Therefore he has not been informed that no one wants him around.

[StrayRogue]

He certainly isn't Islamic...

The 1,500-page manifesto written by Anders Behring Breivik is a blueprint for a continent-wide revolution which reflects much of the thinking of Europe's neo-Nazis.

The document - 2083 A European Declaration Of Independence - lays out a three-stage plan leading to the overthrow of Europe's liberal democracies and replacing them with a pan-European conservative authority.

In some ways, the writings are a mirror image of those of Osama bin Laden , laying out views of why society is in crisis and how only "propaganda by deed" will inspire the masses to action.

Whereas bin Laden wanted Islam to triumph, Breivik supports a Christian Europe without large numbers of Muslims.

Breivik appears to have chosen the date 2083 because it will be the 200th anniversary of the death of Karl Marx.

Many educated neo-Nazis start from the premise that Marxism thought infected Europe, leading to a reduction in nationalism and the introduction, eventually, of liberalism and multiculturalism.
Breivik articulates all this. At a local level, he blames the ruling Labour party for introducing multiculturalism to Norway and, he believes, ruining the country. His writing is deeply anti-Islamic.

The neo-Nazi movement in Scandanavia is among the strongest in Europe.
The different groups are almost all in contact with each other, from Italy to Norway and from Britain to Russia.
There are two types of connection: one is intellectual, the other cultural.
One thing which brought the more openly thuggish elements together was the "White Power" music movement which sprang out of the British punk scene in the early '80s.

"White Power" bands and their supporters quickly began to forge links and attend each other's concerts.
These links became political and, before long, the established extreme-right organisations became involved.

There is also an intellectual strand connecting the neo-Nazis in different countries.

The thinking of this movement has trickled down to the rank and file which buys into the broad theories as outlined in Breivik's document.
The intellectual side of neo-Nazism draws on ancient European history, myths and legends.

The idea of Aryan race features prominently, especially in northern Europe, and much of the literature produced by the far right will mention ancient orders such as The Knights Templar. Hitler's Mein Kampf is much studied. In some ways Breivik's manifesto is reminiscent of Mein Kampf. Written in prison, Hitler's book was a blueprint for what happened in the '30s and '40s.
The Nazi leader laid out his path to power and what would then happen.

Breivik's trial will present him with an opportunity to defend and explain the actions he is now reported to have admitted to. If he is found to be of sound mind, and if he is jailed, he will have time to write more - but the maximum sentence in Norway is 21 years. With time off for good behaviour, theoretically he could be free before he is 50 years old. During that time he may become an icon for the far reaches of the neo-Nazi movement.

Publicly few would dare voice support for his alleged acions but privately there will be those who will study them, and his writings, and approve of them.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/norway-attack-suspects-manifesto-hatred-131906296.html

[Androidpk]

The point is that this act was no more motivated by right-wing ideology than any of those were by Muslim ideology.

How the hell do you know what motivated this guy?

[Latrinsorm]

How the hell do you know what motivated this guy?Right-wing ideology doesn't involve slaughtering a bunch of kids. Whatever did motivate him, it wasn't that. There are many other things that it could not be, but that one was most relevant to the discussion at hand. For instance, he could not possibly have been motivated to emulate Dr. Martin Luther King, or by Jainism.

[Androidpk]

Right-wing ideology doesn't involve slaughtering a bunch of kids. Whatever did motivate him, it wasn't that. There are many other things that it could not be, but that one was most relevant to the discussion at hand. For instance, he could not possibly have been motivated to emulate Dr. Martin Luther King, or by Jainism.

Ok. You're speaking out of your ass. You don't know this person, and you have know idea what his motivation is. Idealogy isn't something that is cut and dry.

[TheEschaton]

Ideology IS pretty cut and dry. By their very definition, they are systems of thought clearly defined. Now, he may be misinterpreting or misapplying right wing ideology, but this isn't an example of right wing ideology.

This isn't to say ideologies can't involve the wholesale slaughtering of children. Nazism's Final Solution would be part of their ideology.

[Latrinsorm]

Ok. You're speaking out of your ass. You don't know this person, and you have know idea what his motivation is. Idealogy isn't something that is cut and dry.If that is your belief, please describe how murdering innocent children could fit in a Jainist ideology. If you cannot do so, I'm afraid I must disregard your claim.

[Androidpk]

Ideology IS pretty cut and dry. By their very definition, they are systems of thought clearly defined. Now, he may be misinterpreting or misapplying right wing ideology, but this isn't an example of right wing ideology.

This isn't to say ideologies can't involve the wholesale slaughtering of children. Nazism's Final Solution would be part of their ideology.

I have to disagree. Ideology in its nature is NOT cut and dry and is incredibly open to interpretation. The guy clearly has far right wing ideas and opinions. Just because he killed younglings doesn't mean anything.

[Androidpk]

If that is your belief, please describe how murdering innocent children could fit in a Jainist ideology. If you cannot do so, I'm afraid I must disregard your claim.

So is having sex with underaged altar boys part of Christian ideology? Fascinating.

[Kuyuk]

I have to disagree. Ideology in its nature is NOT cut and dry and is incredibly open to interpretation. The guy clearly has far right wing ideas and opinions. Just because he killed younglings doesn't mean anything.

If it doesnt mean anything, then why would he do it?

[TheEschaton]

So is having sex with underaged altar boys part of Christian ideology? Fascinating.

No, it isn't. Again, those people weren't acting on any Christian ideology.

[Androidpk]

If it doesnt mean anything, then why would he do it?

When I said it doesn't mean anything I meant that him killing those people doesn't mean he can't have far right wing views. He has already said why he killed them, he is against the political leaders that are in favor of immigration and cultural integration. Said politicians had kids/family members at that camp.

[Latrinsorm]

So is having sex with underaged altar boys part of Christian ideology? Fascinating.This is an odd response because it makes more sense as something I would ask you. My position has been that just because an individual nominally represents a given ideology does not mean that individual's actual acts or beliefs cohere with said ideology.

That you would resort to emotionally charged rhetoric rather than offer an actual counter-example, as I requested, is further evidence that your position has no merit. I hope you can see this in the fullness of time.

[4a6c1]

Religion IS emotionally charged rhetoric and every speculation to its usefulness towards violence is relevant.

[milesalpha]

Hate to defend religion, being an atheist and all, but I don't see this guys motivation as religion. From his remarks and his manifesto it appears his main beliefs were anti-Islam and anti-Marxism, and while that's certainly a facet of some christian ideologies, it isn't part of any established doctrine that I know of. To me, calling this guy a Christian terrorist is like saying Stalin's purges were a result of atheism. It's just not accurate.

[Androidpk]

This is an odd response because it makes more sense as something I would ask you. My position has been that just because an individual nominally represents a given ideology does not mean that individual's actual acts or beliefs cohere with said ideology.

That you would resort to emotionally charged rhetoric rather than offer an actual counter-example, as I requested, is further evidence that your position has no merit. I hope you can see this in the fullness of time.

That was an actual counter-example. What is odd is that YOU don't recognize that people have their own opinions, ideas, motivators, ect. Not everything has to be labeled, and not everything is black and white. If you can't understand that then you should leave the politics folder alone and go back to painting your nails and shaving your knees.

[Cephalopod]

Glenn Beck Compares The Youth Camp Attacked In Norway To The Hitler Youth (http://www.politicususa.com/en/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth)

Ignore MediaMatters and just listen to the clip... wtf.



“Saturday I was following the news of the shooting in Norway and the explosion in Norway, which happened what on Friday…When we heard the explosion everybody was willing to say, it’s Muslim extremists, it’s Muslim extremists. I don’t think we made a comment on it because we didn’t know other than a bombing had happened, and as the thing started to unfold and there was a shooting at a political camp, which sounds a little like the Hitler Youth or you know whatever. Who does a camp for kids that’s all about politics? Disturbing. But, anyway, so there’s this political camp and so crazy man goes and starts shooting kids.”


Really? That's the part of the story he finds disturbing?

He goes on to babble about Geert Wilders and radical Islam, and pins the blame for the massacre on… multiculturalism.

[Tgo01]

Didn't someone start up a camp for kids for the Tea Party?

[Latrinsorm]

That was an actual counter-example. What is odd is that YOU don't recognize that people have their own opinions, ideas, motivators, ect. Not everything has to be labeled, and not everything is black and white. If you can't understand that then you should leave the politics folder alone and go back to painting your nails and shaving your knees.I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make, now. Help me out by having a glance at this hypothetical situation:

A person describes himself as Christian.
This person is of the opinion that the historical Jesus Christ was a rabbit (as in the varmint, not a typo for a religious office).

If I were to look at this situation, I would say that the opinion "Jesus Christ was a rabbit" is not supported by Christian ideology. Are you saying that you would draw a different conclusion? If so, how and why? I'm not asking whether everything is black and white, or inquiring as to the necessity of labeling. I am asking about a specific case relating a specific belief to a specific ideology: does it fit or no?

[Parkbandit]

Glenn Beck Compares The Youth Camp Attacked In Norway To The Hitler Youth (http://www.politicususa.com/en/glenn-beck-norway-hitler-youth)

Ignore MediaMatters and just listen to the clip... wtf.

Really? That's the part of the story he finds disturbing?

He goes on to babble about Geert Wilders and radical Islam, and pins the blame for the massacre on… multiculturalism.

MediaMatters has a nasty habit of taking things out of context. I would assume that Beck talked about the terror attack for a while today.. and that part of the clip was probably more like a "oh yea, and.." type of commentary instead of being the only part of the story that he finds disturbing.

By the way.. a camp for kids that is centered around politics is pretty disturbing... there is plenty of time for them to get into that themselves later on in life... kids should be kids at summer camps. You know.. swimming, fishing, camping, etc... but that's just me.

Oh, and the guy who attacked a camp full of kids and killed a bunch of them should be executed, plain and simple. I felt it necessary to add that.. for fear you would believe that I only found the political camp part of the story disturbing.

[Parkbandit]

And from the mediamatters link, saw this at the end:

This month the Tampa 9/12 project held a summer camp for kids called the Tampa Liberty School which was described on their own website as, “This part time summer camp will meet from 9am to noon on July 11-15 at the Paideia School in Temple Terrace. Kids aged 8-12 years old will have fun while learning the principles of liberty, free markets, and limited government. They will also learn the values of personal responsibility, faith, courage, hard work, reverence and thrift.”

While I don't view principles of liberty, personal responsibility, faith, courage, hard work, reverence and thrift to be political in nature... but even this camp sounds a bit disturbing.

[Cephalopod]

MediaMatters has a nasty habit of taking things out of context. I would assume that Beck talked about the terror attack for a while today.. and that part of the clip was probably more like a "oh yea, and.." type of commentary instead of being the only part of the story that he finds disturbing.


That's why they helpfully link the entire episode to listen to. As I said, he starts off with the comparison to the Hitler youth, then launches into this bizarre rant about how he predicted this, how radical Islam is a danger and the real threat to the world is multiculturalism. Really. Listen to it, it's fun. The Hitler youth comparison is very much an aside at the beginning, but that doesn't make it any less retarded.



By the way.. a camp for kids that is centered around politics is pretty disturbing... there is plenty of time for them to get into that themselves later on in life... kids should be kids at summer camps. You know.. swimming, fishing, camping, etc... but that's just me.


Eh. The description of the camp is basically a summer camp that's run by a political party youth group, and they have guest speakers and debates.

"In addition to the lectures and debates, the campers play soccer, swim, share communal meals, and hold concerts. It's also widely known as a good place for singles to find that special, like-minded someone."

Whatever. I'd say a "Young Republicans" club and "Young Democrats" club disturbs me, too... but I don't think I'd compare them to the Hitler youth right after 68 of them had been killed.



Oh, and the guy who attacked a camp full of kids and killed a bunch of them should be executed, plain and simple.

Occasionally, there's something that we can all agree on. Except TheE.

[Parkbandit]

That's why they helpfully link the entire episode to listen to. As I said, he starts off with the comparison to the Hitler youth, then launches into this bizarre rant about how he predicted this, how radical Islam is a danger and the real threat to the world is multiculturalism. Really. Listen to it, it's fun. The Hitler youth comparison is very much an aside at the beginning, but that doesn't make it any less retarded.

So, Beck does a 3 or 4 hour radio show.. and mediamatters took a 7 minute segment out of it.. and you don't believe they could have possibly taken only the portion of the show that they believed would put Beck in the worst possible light? I haven't listened to Beck in quite some time... but I would bet that during his morning radio show.. he spent more than 7 minutes on the biggest news story of the weekend.

But hey.. mediamatters got what it wanted.. one of it's believers to actually think that Beck's only concern about the terrorist attack was the Hitler kids camp.



Eh. The description of the camp is basically a summer camp that's run by a political party youth group, and they have guest speakers and debates.

"In addition to the lectures and debates, the campers play soccer, swim, share communal meals, and hold concerts. It's also widely known as a good place for singles to find that special, like-minded someone."

Whatever. I'd say a "Young Republicans" club and "Young Democrats" club disturbs me, too... but I don't think I'd compare them to the Hitler youth right after 68 of them had been killed.

Occasionally, there's something that we can all agree on. Except TheE.

Hitler reference was way over the top.. but since he's a sensationalist.. it's probably the norm.

[Rinualdo]

By the way.. a camp for kids that is centered around politics is pretty disturbing... there is plenty of time for them to get into that themselves later on in life... kids should be kids at summer camps. You know.. swimming, fishing, camping, etc... but that's just me.



Is a camp centered around religion equally disturbing? Do you think Beck draws the same parallel?

[Rinualdo]

Re: Beck


Despite his harsh words, Beck actually has some involvement in political youth camps himself. His 9/12 Project — which aims to unite Americans as much as they were on the day following the Sept. 11 attacks — has been running camps for kids this summer. The Utah camp, for example, seeks to provide "heritage-based education for youth, with special focus on the Constitution and the Founding generation."


Former press secretary to Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg, Torbjorn Eriksen, swiftly condemned the U.S. broadcaster for his remarks about the Utoya camp.
"Young political activists have gathered at Utoya for over 60 years to learn about and be part of democracy, the very opposite of what the Hitler Youth was about," Eriksen told the Daily Telegraph. "Glenn Beck's comments are ignorant, incorrect and extremely hurtful."

All that said, PB has something right here. Beck is a sensationalist and made one more idiotic comment in a long string of them. This certainly isn't the worst thing he's said, and there is plenty more in the future. I take solace in knowledge he has becoming more and more marginalized as the days pass, and someone worse will come along to take his place.

[Parkbandit]

Is a camp centered around religion equally disturbing? Do you think Beck draws the same parallel?

The atheist in me wants to say yes.. but the kid in me that went through 3 years of summer church camp says no.

[Latrinsorm]

But hey.. mediamatters got what it wanted.. one of it's believers to actually think that Beck's only concern about the terrorist attack was the Hitler kids camp.How do you translate "very much an aside" to "only concern"?

[Parkbandit]

How do you translate "very much an aside" to "only concern"?

From an earlier post:


Really? That's the part of the story he finds disturbing?

[Cephalopod]

The atheist in me wants to say yes.. but the kid in me that went through 3 years of summer church camp says no.

In summer church camp, did you go swimming, fishing, camping, etc... or did you just talk about religion the whole time?




By the way.. a camp for kids that is centered around politics is pretty disturbing... there is plenty of time for them to get into that themselves later on in life... kids should be kids at summer camps. You know.. swimming, fishing, camping, etc... but that's just me.

[Parkbandit]

In summer church camp, did you go swimming, fishing, camping, etc... or did you just talk about religion the whole time?

It was mostly religious indoctrination. We camped.. because that was where we were.. but we did no fishing or swimming because the camp was in the woods, not by a lake.

[Cephalopod]

It was mostly religious indoctrination. We camped.. because that was where we were.. but we did no fishing or swimming because the camp was in the woods, not by a lake.

And you DON'T find that disturbing? (well, okay, the kid in you that went through three years of it. Why do you have a kid in you, pervert?)

[Rinualdo]

So where is the consistency in Beck's argument? Why not an equal outrage at Vacation bible schools and the like?

In my mind, religious indoctrination is much worse then political. You can, on occasion, rationalize someone out of their political beliefs. Not so much with religious ones.

[Androidpk]

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make, now. Help me out by having a glance at this hypothetical situation:

A person describes himself as Christian.
This person is of the opinion that the historical Jesus Christ was a rabbit (as in the varmint, not a typo for a religious office).

If I were to look at this situation, I would say that the opinion "Jesus Christ was a rabbit" is not supported by Christian ideology. Are you saying that you would draw a different conclusion? If so, how and why? I'm not asking whether everything is black and white, or inquiring as to the necessity of labeling. I am asking about a specific case relating a specific belief to a specific ideology: does it fit or no?

Oh boy. You could have used a better hypothetical situation instead of something THAT absurd. How about this situation, which isn't hypothetical. An A-10 pilot in the USAF. She's on a combat mission over Iraq. Drops some bombs and kills a bunch of Iraqi soldiers. Afterwards she does an interview for a magazine and said she was never afraid because God was there with her, not only protecting her but also GUIDING her bombs down to their intended targets.
Yet here is this supposed Christian saying that God was actually helping her kill people. Does this belief of hers mean she is not a Christian?

[Latrinsorm]

Oh boy. You could have used a better hypothetical situation instead of something THAT absurd.I consider it equally as absurd as suggesting right-wing ideology supports slaughtering children.
How about this situation, which isn't hypothetical. An A-10 pilot in the USAF. She's on a combat mission over Iraq. Drops some bombs and kills a bunch of Iraqi soldiers. Afterwards she does an interview for a magazine and said she was never afraid because God was there with her, not only protecting her but also GUIDING her bombs down to their intended targets.
Yet here is this supposed Christian saying that God was actually helping her kill people. Does this belief of hers mean she is not a Christian?It means that her belief is not Christian. I would say it is fairly unlikely her only "Christian" belief is "Jesus is my guidance system", so I wouldn't say she's not a Christian. Not only is it possible for a Christian to hold non-Christian (and even anti-Christian) beliefs, I would go so far as to say it's an absolute certainty.

By analogy, whatever this person's overall political alignment was, murdering a bunch of kids was not inspired by right-wing ideology. To emphasize that political alignment, then, is to be in error.

[Nieninque]

Oh boy. You could have used a better hypothetical situation instead of something THAT absurd. How about this situation, which isn't hypothetical. An A-10 pilot in the USAF. She's on a combat mission over Iraq. Drops some bombs and kills a bunch of Iraqi soldiers. Afterwards she does an interview for a magazine and said she was never afraid because God was there with her, not only protecting her but also GUIDING her bombs down to their intended targets.
Yet here is this supposed Christian saying that God was actually helping her kill people. Does this belief of hers mean she is not a Christian?

It would be fair to say "The opinion "God was guiding my bombs onto those brown people" is not supported by Christian ideology."

[Rinualdo]

Would it be equally fair to say that God caused this debt crisis, or 9/11, etc... is also not supported by Christian ideology?

[Parkbandit]

So where is the consistency in Beck's argument? Why not an equal outrage at Vacation bible schools and the like?

In my mind, religious indoctrination is much worse then political. You can, on occasion, rationalize someone out of their political beliefs. Not so much with religious ones.

When was the last time you were able to rationalize someone out of their political beliefs here?

[Rinualdo]

When was the last time you were able to rationalize someone out of their political beliefs here?

Certainly not here, but people change their political affiliation far more then their religious ones.

[~Rocktar~]

OK, so this guy ends up convicted of 2 counts of terrorism and gets to walk at 62, if not earlier. Why isn't there an included 72 counts of first degree murder, however many accounts of attempted murder and so on? Rehabilitation is a nice idea and all yet there must be a limit. Seriously, some whack job is suddenly OK to walk around at 62 as if building bombs and driving a truck into a populated are and detonating it would be not be possible for him any more? The only rehabilitation I can see for such a person borders on brainwashing if not in fact becoming such. If it's OK for prisoners to be indoctrinated to such a degree, when does it become OK to do so for non-criminals?

Seriously, police bullets would have been a lot cheaper and much more effective.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14311157

[Latrinsorm]

OK, so this guy ends up convicted of 2 counts of terrorism and gets to walk at 62, if not earlier. Why isn't there an included 72 counts of first degree murder, however many accounts of attempted murder and so on?Terrorism carries a longer sentence. Apparently they don't use consecutive sentencing in Norway.
Rehabilitation is a nice idea and all yet there must be a limit. Seriously, some whack job is suddenly OK to walk around at 62 as if building bombs and driving a truck into a populated are and detonating it would be not be possible for him any more? The only rehabilitation I can see for such a person borders on brainwashing if not in fact becoming such. If it's OK for prisoners to be indoctrinated to such a degree, when does it become OK to do so for non-criminals?There's a relatively obvious barrier between mass murderers and everyone else.

[~Rocktar~]

Terrorism carries a longer sentence. Apparently they don't use consecutive sentencing in Norway.There's a relatively obvious barrier between mass murderers and everyone else.

Apparently not in Norway.

[Rinualdo]

I wonder if this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43933511/ns/politics-more_politics/) will generate any traction here or be overshadowed by the debt negotiations.

[Parkbandit]

I wonder if this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43933511/ns/politics-more_politics/) will generate any traction here or be overshadowed by the debt negotiations.


They will have to pry my 33 capacity Glock clips from cold dead hands!!!111oneone

[~Rocktar~]

I wonder if this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43933511/ns/politics-more_politics/) will generate any traction here or be overshadowed by the debt negotiations.

I wonder when you and others will get over the idea that the tool does the work. Guns don't kill people in mass murders, mass murderers do. No matter if it is a firearm, a bomb, a plane, poison gas, a fire or any number of other implements used to kill large numbers of people, the tool does not do the killing, the fucknugget using it does. Large capacity magazines no more cause mass murders than Liberalism causes happiness and well being.

[Rinualdo]

I wonder when you and others will get over the idea that the tool does the work.

WTF are you talking about?



No matter if it is a firearm, a bomb, a plane, poison gas, a fire or any number of other implements used to kill large numbers of people, the tool does not do the killing, the fucknugget using it does. Large capacity magazines no more cause mass murders than Liberalism causes happiness and well being.

So you are all for the legalization of plastic explosives for sale to the general public then?

Perhaps Wal-Mart can start carrying them on their shelves.

[Latrinsorm]

Why don't we just outlaw 1,500-page manifestos? Any civilian should be able to manage with 1,000 pages.

[AnticorRifling]

Why don't we just outlaw 1,500-page manifestos? Any civilian should be able to manage with 1,000 pages.

Bible clause, clearly.

[AnticorRifling]

WTF are you talking about?




So you are all for the legalization of plastic explosives for sale to the general public then?

Perhaps Wal-Mart can start carrying them on their shelves.

They already stock all the right ingredients.

[~Rocktar~]

WTF are you talking about?

Ok dumbass, I will use small words to make this clear. You and others like to outlaw guns or other shit when people do something like this. Firearms are a tool, like a hammer, saw or drill and like other tools, they can be used properly or improperly, so stop blaming the tool for the action. Without the sociopathic asswipe, the tool does nothing.



So you are all for the legalization of plastic explosives for sale to the general public then?

Perhaps Wal-Mart can start carrying them on their shelves.

Are you aware that you can purchase all the items needed to make several varieties of explosives, several toxic gases, a couple of quite nasty poisons among other things at any hardware, grocery store or garden center? Please grow up.

[~Rocktar~]

They already stock all the right ingredients.

BINGO!

[Rinualdo]

Ok dumbass, I will use small words to make this clear. You and others like to outlaw guns or other shit when people do something like this. Firearms are a tool, like a hammer, saw or drill and like other tools, they can be used properly or improperly, so stop blaming the tool for the action. Without the sociopathic asswipe, the tool does nothing.


Can you show me where in this thread where I said anything even remotely related to outlawing guns? Remotely related to blaming the "tool" for the action?
Didn't anyone ever tell you it was impolite to talk out of your ass?





Are you aware that you can purchase all the items needed to make several varieties of explosives, several toxic gases, a couple of quite nasty poisons among other things at any hardware, grocery store or garden center? Please grow up.

You realize I didn't say explosive, I said plastic explosives, right?

[Parkbandit]

So you are all for the legalization of plastic explosives for sale to the general public then?


I would like to go on record and say how awesome that would be. I would spend a week just blowing the shit out of stuff.

[Rinualdo]

I would like to go on record and say how awesome that would be. I would spend a week just blowing the shit out of stuff.

Prepare for a backtracing.

[Parkbandit]

Can you show me where in this thread where I said anything even remotely related to outlawing guns? Remotely related to blaming the "tool" for the action?
Didn't anyone ever tell you it was impolite to talk out of your ass?

Well, you did link a pro-gun control article from MSNBC and implied your agreement to it.

[Parkbandit]

Prepare for a backtracing.

I'm fine with that. I'm a guy... guys like to blow shit up.

[Cephalopod]

Well, you did link a pro-gun control article from MSNBC and implied your agreement to it.

Is gun control the same as outlawing guns?

[~Rocktar~]

Can you show me where in this thread where I said anything even remotely related to outlawing guns? Remotely related to blaming the "tool" for the action?

You comment in the post linking to the article highly implies it, so please, spare me the semantic dancing game already since you only use it when it suits you and whine about it when others do the same in return.


Didn't anyone ever tell you it was impolite to talk out of your ass?

Didn't anyone ever tell you it was impolite to make implications and then hide behind semantics to lie about your position?



You realize I didn't say explosive, I said plastic explosives, right?

Yo do realize that you are a fucking moron right?

C4, Simtex, Nitro-methanized Ammonium Nitrate and other explosives can all be fashioned out of things you can find in stores. Not easily mind you, but yeah, you can make them. The only difference in so called "plastic" explosive and others is that instead of a compressed powder block or stick form using cellulose as a binder, they use a very highly viscous petroleum binder so that the explosive can be easily measured and shaped to fit the application at hand. That is a nice way to say, instead of using powdered sawdust to hold the explosive chemical together, they use grease or wax like Vaseline petroleum jelly.

This doesn't address the liquid explosives that can be made which is now the reason you can't take bottled water or other drinks onto a plane either.

[Rinualdo]

Well, you did link a pro-gun control article from MSNBC and implied your agreement to it.

Don't be retarded. Wondering if something will gain traction in the news media != implied agreement.

I also hardly see the article as pro gun control. It's an article about comments from a pro-gun control Congresswoman and then an NRA response with a few facts about the applicable laws and their expiration. You could argue the last paragraph was unnecessary and showed a slightly leaning bias, but hardly a pro-gun control one.

[~Rocktar~]

I'm fine with that. I'm a guy... guys like to blow shit up.

Fuck yeah dude!

[~Rocktar~]

Is gun control the same as outlawing guns?

Real gun control means hitting your target the first time.

[Rinualdo]

You comment in the post linking to the article highly implies it, so please, spare me the semantic dancing game already since you only use it when it suits you and whine about it when others do the same in return.



Didn't anyone ever tell you it was impolite to make implications and then hide behind semantics to lie about your position?


Tell you what, Donnie. The first time you pull a trigger and kill someone, I'll be glad to listen to your position on gun rights and gun control. Until then, keep saving up so you can actually afford a gun.

You're welcome to search these forums where my feelings on guns as a whole are pretty straight forward.
Here's a hint: my wife and I own over 20 of them.

[~Rocktar~]

Tell you what, Donnie. The first time you pull a trigger and kill someone, I'll be glad to listen to your position on gun rights and gun control. Until then, keep saving up so you can actually afford a gun.

You're welcome to search these forums where my feelings on guns as a whole are pretty straight forward.
Here's a hint: my wife and I own over 20 of them.

Name's not Donnie but I tell you what, the first time you make a reasonable argument about much of anything, then I might take you seriously. I own several and am pretty proficient at shooting as well as home reloading.

You are welcome to pull your head out of your ass at any time. Want to not be accused of a position, then don't post implying it.

[AnticorRifling]

Real gun control means hitting your target the first time.

No, just no.

[AnticorRifling]

I would like to go on record and say how awesome that would be. I would spend a week just blowing the shit out of stuff.

Hi, I'm tannerite have we met?

[Parkbandit]

Is gun control the same as outlawing guns?

Depends which crazy fucking liberal you are talking to. For a real example, look at England.

[Parkbandit]

Don't be retarded. Wondering if something will gain traction in the news media != implied agreement.

I also hardly see the article as pro gun control. It's an article about comments from a pro-gun control Congresswoman and then an NRA response with a few facts about the applicable laws and their expiration. You could argue the last paragraph was unnecessary and showed a slightly leaning bias, but hardly a pro-gun control one.

Let me guess.. you are for gun control in the US, right?

[AnticorRifling]

Let me guess.. you are for gun control in the US, right?

I am.

[Rinualdo]

Let me guess.. you are for gun control in the US, right?

Of course, as most everyone else.

[Parkbandit]

Of course, as most everyone else.

Yea, that was worded badly on my part. Let me try it again.. hopefully we can skip the semantic games.

Are you for more strict gun control in the US up to and including making guns illegal in the US?

[Rinualdo]

Are you for more strict gun control in the US up to and including making guns illegal in the US?

Most certainly not. Nor am I in favor of eliminating so-called high capacity magazines.

[AnticorRifling]

Which ones? All firearms, certain classes of firearms? More strict as in harsher penalties for firearm misuse?

[AnticorRifling]

Most certainly not. Nor am I in favor of eliminating so-called high capacity magazines.

That's good, besides the four shot clips I've got for my bolt action I don't have anything that's under a 12 shot...yet judge is still on the list.

[Rinualdo]

Which ones? All firearms, certain classes of firearms? More strict as in harsher penalties for firearm misuse?

If you really wanted to pidgeon hole it, ask who's laws. Every damn state does it differently and moving as a gun owner can be a real pain in the ass.

[Rinualdo]

At least now we know why it happened. Thank goodness someone (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/08/02/nyheter/politikk/utenriks/17533856/&act=url) is going to let those people in Norway know what's up.

[Liagala]

At least now we know why it happened. Thank goodness someone (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=no&tl=en&u=http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/08/02/nyheter/politikk/utenriks/17533856/&act=url) is going to let those people in Norway know what's up.
I'm just waiting for a loved one of one of those nutjobs to die, and have a bunch of people show up harassing them while they try to sort themselves out.

[Latrinsorm]

If they implement what they threaten, I can only confirm that it is one of the most bad ideas at the moment.