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Parkbandit
04-14-2011, 09:36 AM
It was spitting rain outside the Capitol, but the Congressional Progressive Caucus opted not to move indoors for the launch of its new spending plan, “The People’s Budget.”

“We’re going to call forth the sun!” Rep. Keith Ellison, the Minnesota Democrat who is co-chair of the caucus, proclaimed theatrically. His colleagues huddled under umbrellas and the wind knocked their promotional poster from its easel.

Ellison and the progressives probably would have a better chance of influencing the weather than they would passing their budget, which they are floating as an alternative to the House Republican bid and President Obama’s plan.

Among the highlights: A $4 trillion tax increase over 10 years. An increase in the top tax rate to 49 percent. A $2.3 trillion cut in defense spending – and an increase in domestic spending. Oh, and they would revive the “public option” to offer government-run health care.

Even the most starry-eyed of the progressives know the proposal is as much of a non-starter as Paul Ryan’s House Republican plan, which requires only spending cuts and actually reduces taxes. The real target is President Obama, who the progressives fear will capitulate and negotiate a deal that cuts heavily into entitlements and social programs.

“It’s about time we started joining with our allies and marching and protesting and going to the White House!” exhorted Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) “You get my drift?”

Obama, who outlined his plan 90 minutes after the progressives unveiled theirs, may find their proposal useful because it gives him a far-left counterweight to the far-right Ryan plan. The president’s fiscal commission recommended a proportion of two-thirds spending cuts and one-third tax increases. Even Bob Greenstein of the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities says fifty-fifty would be a reasonable mix. The Progressive Caucus budget is 80 percent tax increases.

It’s difficult to evaluate the liberals’ dream scheme because they don’t make projections beyond 10 years (after which entitlement spending problems become larger), and, rather than having the proposal “scored” by the Congressional Budget Office, they used as their referee the Economic Policy Institute, a like-minded think tank.

Still, it gives a sense of how things would be if liberals ran the world: no cuts in Social Security benefits, government-negotiated Medicare drug prices, and increased income taxes and Social Security taxes for the wealthy. Corporations and investors would be hit with a variety of new fees and taxes. And the military would face a shock-and-awe accounting: a 22 percent cut in Army forces, 30 percent for Marines, 20 percent for the Navy and 15 percent for the airforce. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would end, and weapons programs would go begging.

The progressives, in their rollout, were not quite ready for prime time. The lawmakers and staffers kept poking each other with their umbrellas, and they found themselves competing with the whine of a Capitol tractor. Their oft-repeated slogan, “The People’s Budget,” conveyed an unhelpful association with “the people’s republic” and other socialist undertakings.

Rep. Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) announced that 30 members of Congress were fasting on Wednesday to “raise the level of awareness about the People’s Budget.” (A separate press conference highlighting the fast was called off; it was unclear whether this was because of rain, hunger or something else.)

Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-Texas) suggested a more militaristic form of resistance. “We are the soldiers on the battlefield. We wear the armor of the People’s Budget,” she announced. She predicted that if the Republican budget becomes law, seniors in nursing homes “will be lifted out in stretchers and you’ll see them carried out one by one.”

But their ire was directed as much at their own president. “It’s not always a choice of compromising in the middle,” complained Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.), the Progressive Caucus co-chair, who convened the session wearing a tie that hung loose from his neck and ended five inches above his waistband.

The economist Jeffrey Sachs, who joined the lawmakers for the rollout, went Grijalva one further. “Unfortunately, the president is not in the middle on this. He’s to the right,” Sachs said.

So, if Obama is on the right, where does that leave the left? “This proposal is in the center,” Sachs maintained. “We have the far right, we have a president that is to the right of center, and we have a broad center that is represented by this proposal.”

The Progressive Caucus will win that argument, just as soon as they gain control of the weather. The drizzle, alas, did not let up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/if-progressives-ran-the-world/2011/04/13/AFD7YtYD_story.html

I found it hilarious that many members of this caucus believe that they are in the political center of the country.

Clearly, out of touch with reality.

~Rocktar~
04-14-2011, 09:52 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now THAT was funny as hell. These are the same people that could have voted in their budget last year without issue and they waited this long before going on a tax and spend diatribe. The People's Budget, yeah, that's going to get them some attention they don't want.

Tgo01
04-14-2011, 10:05 AM
Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-Texas) suggested a more militaristic form of resistance. “We are the soldiers on the battlefield. We wear the armor of the People’s Budget,” she announced. She predicted that if the Republican budget becomes law, seniors in nursing homes “will be lifted out in stretchers and you’ll see them carried out one by one.”

I wonder how Democrats in general feel about this after some Republicans claimed Obamacare was going to 'kill grandma'?

Tgo01
04-14-2011, 10:17 AM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=concern+troll

You're going to have to be more specific than that.


A person who posts on a blog thread, in the guise of "concern," to disrupt dialogue or undermine morale by pointing out that posters and/or the site may be getting themselves in trouble, usually with an authority or power. They point out problems that don't really exist. The intent is to derail, stifle, control, the dialogue. It is viewed as insincere and condescending.

Nope, that doesn't fit my post.


In an argument (usually a political debate), a concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns". The idea behind this is that your opponents will take your arguments more seriously if they think you're an ally. Concern trolls who use fake identities are sometimes known as sockpuppets.

Nope, never pretended to be on 'the other side.'


A person who lurks, then posts, on a site or blog, expressing concern for policies, comments, attitudes of others on the site. It is viewed as insincere, manipulative, condescending.

Maybe...except for the lurking bit and claiming the concern for policies, comments or attitudes of others on the site.


A phrase used by the progressive netroots whenever someone questions the effectiveness of their activism, or notices that they are acting like fools, and discrediting their causes by incredibly silly gestures.

?


A phrase of absolutely no meaning, used by bloggers to shut down debate on their sites.

We have a winner?!

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 04:58 PM
If progressives ran the... 04-15-2011 11:35 AM Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the thread. Again. Asshole troll is asshole. ~WB

Just because your poor feelings were hurt you get a free bump. This is easily one of my lazier efforts to troll a conservative trolling thread. I didn't even respond to TGO1 that I wasn't even bothering enough to try to find a proper "concern troll" definition, which can also mean expressing deep concern about the opposite side's positions in the debate when you don't really care anyways in an effort to somehow stir dissension.

I hope you get the Red State love-in that you so fervently desire. I worry about you.

Tgo01
04-15-2011, 05:45 PM
This is easily one of my lazier efforts to troll a conservative trolling thread. I didn't even respond to TGO1 that I wasn't even bothering enough to try to find a proper "concern troll" definition

You were doing it on purpose because you're lazy.


which can also mean expressing deep concern about the opposite side's positions in the debate when you don't really care anyways in an effort to somehow stir dissension.

Wouldn't we need to be having a debate in the first place for this definition to make sense?

Parkbandit
04-15-2011, 05:59 PM
If progressives ran the... 04-15-2011 11:35 AM Thanks for contributing absolutely nothing to the thread. Again. Asshole troll is asshole. ~WB

Just because your poor feelings were hurt you get a free bump. This is easily one of my lazier efforts to troll a conservative trolling thread. I didn't even respond to TGO1 that I wasn't even bothering enough to try to find a proper "concern troll" definition, which can also mean expressing deep concern about the opposite side's positions in the debate when you don't really care anyways in an effort to somehow stir dissension.

I hope you get the Red State love-in that you so fervently desire. I worry about you.

Lulz.

At least the "WB" that left you the rep seemed to get it.

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 05:59 PM
It's a somewhat weird takedown of a far more terrifying document.

http://grijalva.house.gov/uploads/The%20CPC%20FY2012%20Budget.pdf

The military cuts are misrepresented. The "tax increase" is largely a removal of existing cuts.

With that said, the corporate tax hike (all foreign income of US corporations, which would likely cause a mass exodus from the country) alone makes this the effective equivalent of many of the Republican cuts, unlikely to ever see the light of day and merely a talking point.

They could do better. Misdirected complaints and misrepresentations don't get them there, however, nor do cries of SOCIALISM!

Parkbandit
04-15-2011, 06:09 PM
I do enjoy how even this budget illustrates how utterly ridiculous Obama's 2012 Budget is. It's painfully obvious he has no intention of taking on any meaningful debt reduction measures during his Presidency.

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 06:12 PM
I do enjoy how even this budget illustrates how utterly ridiculous Obama's 2012 Budget is. It's painfully obvious he has no intention of taking on any meaningful debt reduction measures during his Presidency.

While I think both this and Ryan's are more meaningful, cut wise, are they really when they include stuff that no one in the opposite party or in their right mind would EVER vote for? There's just this big disconnect on how to really get numbers on the board, which is silly, given that any of us could see more politically smooth cuts everywhere. None of us would run a company like this.

Parkbandit
04-15-2011, 06:37 PM
While I think both this and Ryan's are more meaningful, cut wise, are they really when they include stuff that no one in the opposite party or in their right mind would EVER vote for? There's just this big disconnect on how to really get numbers on the board, which is silly, given that any of us could see more politically smooth cuts everywhere. None of us would run a company like this.

You do realize that "this" (The People's Budget) budget isn't meaningful, cut wise... don't you? They aren't cutting anything, merely pulling money from defense and putting it into their pet domestic projects.

Their "budget" assumes that when you tax people at a higher rate it will equate to more revenue... which is ignorant of the global economy we live in. It's like if you run a business and decide that 2012, you will double the price of your widget. Well heck, you are going to double your revenue!

It's a progressive pipe dream.

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 06:42 PM
You do realize that "this" (The People's Budget) budget isn't meaningful, cut wise... don't you? They aren't cutting anything, merely pulling money from defense and putting it into their pet domestic projects.

Their "budget" assumes that when you tax people at a higher rate it will equate to more revenue... which is ignorant of the global economy we live in. It's like if you run a business and decide that 2012, you will double the price of your widget. Well heck, you are going to double your revenue!

It's a progressive pipe dream.

Eh. Their "cuts" and Ryan's "cuts" are more meaningful than the pathetic amounts that are actually being agreed on for 2012.

It's equally foolish to assume that tax cuts are somehow going to spur economic growth these days or that laissez faire economics will generate money that will even reach our country.

Politics and Congressional re-election prospects stand in the way of most real reform. I'd have liked to have seen more of the bipartisan commission's stuff pushed forward. With a proper degree of balance, they were keeping an eye on the more wacky "cuts." Neither side was willing to listen at all though.

Parkbandit
04-15-2011, 06:48 PM
Eh. Their "cuts" and Ryan's "cuts" are more meaningful than the pathetic amounts that are actually being agreed on for 2012.

You aren't understanding me... in "The People's Budget", there are no cuts. They are simply moving money from defense spending to domestic spending. In Ryan's budget, they are actually cutting... though not everything like they should. There should be far more significant cuts to defense spending.



It's equally foolish to assume that tax cuts are somehow going to spur economic growth these days or that laissez faire economics will generate money that will even reach our country.

I don't want to use an over used line.. but we do not have a revenue problem, we have a severe spending problem.


Politics and Congressional re-election prospects stand in the way of most real reform. I'd have liked to have seen more of the bipartisan commission's stuff pushed forward. With a proper degree of balance, they were keeping an eye on the more wacky "cuts." Neither side was willing to listen at all though.

I actually agree. Of the 3 plans though, there is only 1 plan that addresses the growing deficit from a cost cutting viewpoint.

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 07:07 PM
I don't want to use an over used line.. but we do not have a revenue problem, we have a severe spending problem.

I think we have both. The Ryan plan may even decrease total revenue. I'm also deeply uncomfortable with some of the "privatize" notions, which seem like giveaways of even further revenue. The burden is also far more heavily levied on poorer Americans (Medicare, Medicaid) though I love the ballsiness of attempting the cuts.

There's also a lot of political grandstanding about healthcare and the lack of defense cuts, which you mentioned.

It's certainly better than the agreed upon plan. Minus the political showboating I'd be far more likely to support it.

Parkbandit
04-15-2011, 08:32 PM
I think we have both. The Ryan plan may even decrease total revenue. I'm also deeply uncomfortable with some of the "privatize" notions, which seem like giveaways of even further revenue. The burden is also far more heavily levied on poorer Americans (Medicare, Medicaid) though I love the ballsiness of attempting the cuts.

There's also a lot of political grandstanding about healthcare and the lack of defense cuts, which you mentioned.

It's certainly better than the agreed upon plan. Minus the political showboating I'd be far more likely to support it.

I think the Republicans want to get the Democratic Senators to vote yes again in support of Obamacare, which gets more and more unpopular as time goes by. 2012 gives the Republicans a pretty solid opportunity to gain major seats in the Senate... which to me is more important than electing a Republican to the White House.

The Ryan plan is a good, solid start.. but without serious cuts to defense, elimination of subsidies and real tax reform (and by reform, I don't mean just raising taxes on the rich, like "the People's Budget" does), it's simply not enough to address the crisis we are in.

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 08:44 PM
I think the Republicans want to get the Democratic Senators to vote yes again in support of Obamacare

Yeah. "They support OBAMACARE!" vs "They went to destroy MEDICARE/MEDICAID!" is ultimately very silly.

Most of it we're pretty much in agreement on. The desire for wedge issues just drives politics way too much.

Wowfool
04-15-2011, 09:22 PM
The problem with tax cuts or increases is that they do not address the core problem, spending and the growth of spending. There is no possible means of revenue generation that will pay for the current growth of spending, it cannot possibly happen.

If you can get spending under control, and actually "cut" spending, not just slow the growth, but reduce spending, then we can talk tax increases to balance and repay debt. Right now, a tax increase is like buying an alcoholic another beer.

Return spending to under 20% (18%-19% is more historical) of GDP, then we can tinker with tax rates. Ideally, I would like to see lowered rates and vastly reduced exemptions. It really is not right when GE pays $0 in income taxes because the government loves them, and other companies pay among the highest corporate tax rates in the industrialized world. Get politics out of the tax code and we can tinker with the rates to generate revenue to balance the budget.

Danical
04-15-2011, 09:32 PM
Is it my imagination, or are WB and PB forming a relationship like Allen Shore and Denny Crane, respectively. I mean, like, woah.

Warriorbird
04-15-2011, 09:41 PM
Is it my imagination, or are WB and PB forming a relationship like Allen Shore and Denny Crane, respectively. I mean, like, woah.

Hilarious.

I bet PB would donate to the Jack Abramoff Ball too.